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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: At that moment, they had no idea what was going

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Speaker 3: to come out of that seller. They were hoping it

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Speaker 3: would be Ruth, who was five, who was in captivity,

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Speaker 3: and there were stories of that that she was being

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Speaker 3: held against her will.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published more Wicked Presents. Wicked Words is about

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Speaker 1: the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's a

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Speaker 1: deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Author Brad

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Speaker 1: RICKA and I both love good mysteries and smart investigators.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book called Missus Sherlock Holmes. It's about

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Speaker 1: an attorney slash detective who advocated for victims and then

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Speaker 1: solved their cases using some really clever techniques.

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Speaker 3: It's the big city. It's New York City in nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 3: and it's where the boroughs have finally been consolidated into

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Speaker 3: this one big project that will be the city. And

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Speaker 3: it looks great on paper, but not everyone agrees because

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Speaker 3: you have all these little neighborhoods being told you're now

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Speaker 3: part of a bigger mission. It's the time of the tenements.

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Speaker 3: It's the time of the immigrant everywhere, and there's Little

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Speaker 3: Italy and there's all these places that look like they

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Speaker 3: were just plucked out of Europe and dropped under the street.

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Speaker 3: But then there's automobiles and there's a lot of crime,

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Speaker 3: and there's the presence of the police through all this.

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Speaker 3: World War One is on the horizon and the Germans

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Speaker 3: are kind of making these machiavellian moves with Mexico and

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Speaker 3: President Woodrow Wilson has had enough. It's an exciting time,

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Speaker 3: but it's also an uncertain time, a lawless time, a

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Speaker 3: dirty time.

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Speaker 1: Where does Ruth and her family, because we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the victim now, Ruth Kruger and her family fit, Is

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Speaker 1: this an immigrant family in New York.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but they're well to do. Her father is an accountant,

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Speaker 3: Henry Krueger, and he's done very well for himself, and

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Speaker 3: they live in this nice apartment building in Harlem, and

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Speaker 3: he travels a bit, and his daughters do very well

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Speaker 3: in school. Ruth is a star pupil in high school

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Speaker 3: and teaches at the Sunday School. Kind of doing all

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Speaker 3: right for themselves in this larger New York.

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Speaker 1: And Ruth is eighteen. So is she the eldest or

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Speaker 1: the youngest or does she seem like someone who has

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Speaker 1: a lot of responsibility at this age.

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Speaker 3: She does. She has an older sister. Her main responsibility

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Speaker 3: has been taking care of her sister, who's been sick

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Speaker 3: for about a year with rheumatic fever and some other things.

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Speaker 3: So this was after she graduated high school. But that's

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Speaker 3: as anyone who's ever cared for a sick person, especially

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Speaker 3: as sick family member, that's a lot of responsibility. So

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Speaker 3: she would often be the one going out doing chores,

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Speaker 3: running errands, while her sister would would stay at home.

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Speaker 1: So Ruth is in a very large city, but she

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Speaker 1: comes from a really good family and she's got this

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Speaker 1: responsibility do you have an indication of any kind of

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Speaker 1: dreams that she had. I mean, where was she heading

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Speaker 1: in life?

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Speaker 3: That is a great question, because we don't know when

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Speaker 3: she disappears. She's eighteen, and at eighteen, you have every

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Speaker 3: dream in the universe almost and at the same time, you,

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Speaker 3: in a weird way, kind of don't have any because

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Speaker 3: you're not sure what the future is going to bring.

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Speaker 3: She probably wasn't going to college. She seemed to like

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Speaker 3: being a teacher at Sunday schools. But that's just me speculating.

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Speaker 3: And that's part of the common tragedy that runs through

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Speaker 3: so many of these stories, is not just the plans

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Speaker 3: for the future, but the fact that those plans have

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Speaker 3: been taken away.

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Speaker 1: When you have somebody as young as Ruth at age

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Speaker 1: eighteen and you have limited information, how do you, as

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Speaker 1: a writer create this person that people can relate to,

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Speaker 1: because you want to put the victim at the forefront,

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Speaker 1: not the killer necessarily right.

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Speaker 3: One thing I had to realize because there's lots of

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Speaker 3: gaps in that kind of knowledge in this book of

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Speaker 3: people who we know existed and did all this stuff,

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Speaker 3: but there's no personal records of and Ruth certainly is

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Speaker 3: one of them. So what I decided to do is

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Speaker 3: focus on her as she became understood through the media.

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Speaker 3: This story is kind of one of so many. What

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Speaker 3: happens to Ruth I found out by the end, you know,

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Speaker 3: just happens again and again and again. And a big

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Speaker 3: part of that is how the media tells her story.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about the next step for Ruth.

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Speaker 1: She's eighteen, she teaches Sunday school, She's taking care of

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Speaker 1: her sister, she seems responsible. What is the next pivotal

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Speaker 1: thing that happens to her that moves your story forward?

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Speaker 3: It's always kind of nothing, really that propels her into

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Speaker 3: this story that she does not want to be a

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Speaker 3: part of. It's so often just a regular day. It's

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Speaker 3: the day before Valentine's Day, of all days, just over

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Speaker 3: one hundred years ago, and she goes out to do

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Speaker 3: some errands and there's some light snow, and she goes

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Speaker 3: to the bank, into the stationery store, and all these

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Speaker 3: wonderfully mundane things we do all the time, and that

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Speaker 3: are even better in New York City, right, And at

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Speaker 3: some point she decides to do something for herself. Caring

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Speaker 3: for her sister and being in the apartment all day.

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Speaker 3: She decides to go ice skating because she loves to

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Speaker 3: ice skate. And back then, you know, there were all

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Speaker 3: these ponds and lakes you could go skating on, and

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Speaker 3: so part of her itinerary for that day was to

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Speaker 3: get her skates sharpened.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so she goes to get her skates sharpened, and

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Speaker 1: where does that even happen? Is there a shop that

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Speaker 1: does that in nineteen seventeen in New York City.

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Speaker 3: One of the best things of researching nineteen seventeen New

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Speaker 3: York is you learn all these things that people would

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Speaker 3: do to make a living, all these kind of side hustles.

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Speaker 3: And so I found out that you would get your

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Speaker 3: skates sharpened at mechanics or an auto mechanic would sharpen

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Speaker 3: your skates. And she went to, of all places, a

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Speaker 3: motorcycle store. It was called Metropolitan Motorcycles NATA sign you know,

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Speaker 3: will sharp your skates, and she went in to drop

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Speaker 3: your skates off to be sharpened, and she picked them up.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the last thing that we know of is that

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Speaker 1: Ruth drops off these skates at the Metropolitan Motorcycles and

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Speaker 1: then picks them up and then disappears.

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Speaker 2: What is the next thing.

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Speaker 1: Who knows that she disappears At this point, she doesn't

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Speaker 1: come home, and her mom gets upset.

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Speaker 3: Her parents are away, they're up in Boston, and her

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Speaker 3: sister starts to become worried that she should have been

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Speaker 3: home by dark. And she goes out and goes to

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Speaker 3: all the places she was going to go, and goes

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Speaker 3: by the motorcycle store because she knows her sister knows

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Speaker 3: she would want to go ice skating. She loves to

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Speaker 3: ice skate, and it's closed, which she found a bit strange.

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Speaker 3: But she knew something was wrong. She could just feel it.

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Speaker 3: And she telegrammed her father and said Ruth is missing.

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Speaker 3: Come home immediately. And the next day in the Times

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Speaker 3: it said pretty girl skater goes missing and the police

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Speaker 3: were brought in.

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Speaker 1: So the parents were turning home, I'm assuming at.

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Speaker 3: Some point overnight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they return home and what's the next step

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Speaker 1: for the police. Is this just what any police officers

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Speaker 1: now would do, which is canvass area go to the shop?

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Speaker 4: Question people, yes and no.

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Speaker 3: One. Thing I had to do a lot of research

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Speaker 3: was how police worked back then, and what I found

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Speaker 3: was there are a lot of things that are the

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Speaker 3: same they canvassed the shops and it was the owner

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Speaker 3: of the store was an Italian. His name was Alfredo Kochi.

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Speaker 3: When she disappeared after this day, he was questioned by

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Speaker 3: police and said, yoh, yeah, I remember her. She was

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Speaker 3: very pretty. His English was very broken, but he said

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Speaker 3: she picked up skates and leave. They talked to all

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Speaker 3: these other people, and you can read the records, but

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Speaker 3: then there's stuff that the police did that doesn't show

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Speaker 3: up in records that would show up later on. The

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Speaker 3: police were a huge presence in New York City even then,

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Speaker 3: and they had their kind of influence in almost every

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Speaker 3: walk of life. And they were in this huge new

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Speaker 3: headquarters downtown that they referred to as the White House

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Speaker 3: because that's how much power they had. And so they

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Speaker 3: did question Alfredo Kochie and they did search his shop too,

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Speaker 3: and they searched his first floor, and he had a

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Speaker 3: basement and they searched the basement and they said, everything's fine,

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Speaker 3: But it kind of fizzles out once they run out

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Speaker 3: of people to talk to and run out of evidence.

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Speaker 3: And here's where her father, Henry Krueger, who's this short accountant,

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Speaker 3: really gets furious and shows up at police headquarters. Why

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Speaker 3: aren't you searching for my daughter?

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Speaker 1: I assume they looked for boyfriends, right? Did they find

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Speaker 1: any boyfriends?

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Speaker 2: Was she dating?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So that's always the next step. So you get

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Speaker 3: the picture, and then you get the rumors and the gossip.

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Speaker 3: And that's what kind of turned the tide, because all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden in the papers and the other thing

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Speaker 3: is New York back then had twenty newspapers.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, at all times of the day.

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Speaker 3: It's the the best. It's pulp internet, and you can

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Speaker 3: imagine the stuff that they would print and just make up.

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Speaker 3: So after a couple of days, when they don't find

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Speaker 3: any clues and don't find her, they start with the

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Speaker 3: gossip and the rumors, and it starts with boyfriends that, oh,

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Speaker 3: she must have run off with a man. And all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, calls were coming in from Brooklyn. I

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Speaker 3: saw Ruth Krueger. She was with someone with white hair.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out she did have a few nice

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Speaker 3: Columbia boys. They were called and the police brought them

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Speaker 3: in and we have their questioning and.

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Speaker 1: Uh, well wait a second, Columbia the country or Columbia

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Speaker 1: the university.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, I'm sorry Columbia, the university. Yeah, it's funny

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Speaker 3: because they're always referred to in the police reports as

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Speaker 3: those nice Columbia boys, and they're kind of clueless, right,

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Speaker 3: They're like, Oh, I smiled at her once and she

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Speaker 3: was mad at me because I didn't say hi to

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Speaker 3: her on the street. So there's no there's no path there.

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Speaker 3: They quickly find out there's.

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Speaker 1: No potential for an acrimonious relationship, at least with the

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Speaker 1: men that they were able to locate, is what it

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Speaker 1: sounds like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but this is what drives her father, just

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Speaker 3: Barker's because all this suggestion is that not only first

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Speaker 3: she has one boyfriend, but then she has multiple boyfriends

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Speaker 3: and they're fighting over her, and he he holds a

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Speaker 3: press conference, which is like unheard of in nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 3: and is adamant. He says, my daughter was a good girl.

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Speaker 3: He said, you stop this right now. He's like, she

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Speaker 3: was a good girl and something happened to her, And

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Speaker 3: this is really kind of unheard of for the time.

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Speaker 1: Are they suggesting multiple boyfriends because A she ran away

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Speaker 1: with one of them. B she just was no matter

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Speaker 1: what happened to her, she sort of deserved it because

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Speaker 1: she was a woman about town or is it suggesting

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Speaker 1: that one of them hurt her and she's truly a victim.

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Speaker 3: It's the first one they start to paint it that

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Speaker 3: this was her fault. And this is one thing you

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Speaker 3: see that you can see it today. Unfortunately, like clockwork,

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Speaker 3: when somebody, especially a woman, goes missing, this is the kind.

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Speaker 4: Of cycle of news victim shaming.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, she was on drugs, she was promiscuous. Just

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Speaker 3: this nonsense, and that's what they do to her. The

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Speaker 3: first picture of her is just her face, and then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, the next picture of her goes

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Speaker 3: further down to show more of her body, and it

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Speaker 3: just keeps going that way and it gets even worse.

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Speaker 3: So the next step after the boyfriends is that she's

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Speaker 3: part of this white slavery ring. Some of the stories

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Speaker 3: are that she's been sold into white slavery, but some

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Speaker 3: are that she has gone in willingly sex trafficking, right right.

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Speaker 3: It was a huge fear, and there were all these

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Speaker 3: stories that people had seen Ruth on a ship going

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Speaker 3: to Brazil. And a woman comes forth later and says,

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Speaker 3: we were in this harem like room and I saw

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Speaker 3: Ruth Krueger.

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Speaker 1: But the irony of this is something we talk about

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Speaker 1: with the Gabby Patito case and other cases, is of

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Speaker 1: the missing white woman's which I talk about in some

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Speaker 1: of my other shows. That is the idea that Ruth,

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Speaker 1: even though it was bad publicity, was sure getting publicity

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Speaker 1: that other people, particularly other immigrants or women of color,

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Speaker 1: were not getting, and I'm sure they were going missing

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 3: What I found with the official numbers is there were

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Speaker 3: about one to two thousand a year that were just

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Speaker 3: never found. Wow, which is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: What is the next thing?

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Speaker 1: How many days are the police searching and the media

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Speaker 1: reporting until this finally starts to recess back a little If.

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Speaker 3: You kind of chart all the places that people put

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Speaker 3: her after she disappears, she had traveled the globe six times,

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Speaker 3: but it's a few weeks and after that peak, it

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Speaker 3: kind of disappears a little bit and the police basically

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Speaker 3: stop their investigation. They publicly say that it's over, and

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Speaker 3: they say that they have concluded that she probably ran

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Speaker 3: off with some romantic interests. There's a couple stories that

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Speaker 3: someone saw her get into a cab, so of course

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Speaker 3: that's just the same as fact. So that's what really

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Speaker 3: sets her father off. And he again has this press conference.

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Speaker 3: He says, my daughter was a good girl. I know

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Speaker 3: something bad happened to her. And this is when he

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Speaker 3: unveils that he has hired a new attorney. And this

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Speaker 3: is where we meet Missus Sherlock Holmes.

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Speaker 1: This is our protagonist. So this is Grace Hummiston.

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Speaker 3: He has this press conference and there's this woman in

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Speaker 3: her late fifties mid fifties in the back and she's

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Speaker 3: dressed all in black with this huge, weird black hat,

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Speaker 3: and they think she's the grandmother and they think, oh,

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Speaker 3: maybe they've found Ruth. And she's died and she's already

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Speaker 3: in mourning. And she steps up and she says, I

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Speaker 3: am Missus Hummiston. I'm the attorney. All clues will now

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Speaker 3: go through me. She's had this incredible career that has

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Speaker 3: kind of gone forgotten, and people didn't really know her

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Speaker 3: then either until this case.

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Speaker 1: So now let's back up and talk about Grace and

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Speaker 1: what kind of person she was and where she comes from.

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Speaker 3: She was someone that i'd heard of or I saw

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Speaker 3: an article when I was digging for this in the

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Speaker 3: early stages and just found nothing on her. Absolutely nothing.

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Speaker 3: I figured someone of the length of her career and

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Speaker 3: she becomes really famous and yet she leaves nothing behind.

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Speaker 3: So that was like a real wall to meet in

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Speaker 3: the first few days of this book, where I said,

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Speaker 3: I can't write this book. But then I realized that

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Speaker 3: I love Sherlock Holmes stories. I always have. What I

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Speaker 3: love about Sherlock Holmes is he never talks about himself.

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Speaker 3: You just get these little tidbits and then they're so

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Speaker 3: just delicious that you're like, wait, Holmes does opium and

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Speaker 3: then you just eat it up.

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Speaker 2: That is not a little tidbit. But yes, I understand

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Speaker 2: what you mean.

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Speaker 3: But we never hear, like anything of his personal life.

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Speaker 3: It's always the mystery. So I said, that's how I'm

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Speaker 3: going to tell this story. The cases right, and she's fascinating.

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Speaker 3: She is born to wealth and she marries this doctor,

300
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Speaker 3: doctor Quackenbush, and he's busted early on for having peep

301
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Speaker 3: poles in his medical practice, so she divorces him immediately

302
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Speaker 3: and says that she's going to go to law school.

303
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Speaker 3: And the only law school for women is NYU, and

304
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 3: she enrolls and she has to go at night. Women

305
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 3: can only attend at night and it's really a motley

306
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 3: crew and she's kind of hazed. There's like snow coming

307
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Speaker 3: in the windows and they're throwing it at her. This

308
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 3: doesn't face her. She goes to the front row and

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Speaker 3: she really takes to the laws so much so that

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Speaker 3: they move her to the day class and she graduates

311
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Speaker 3: in two years instead of three, twelfth in her class,

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Speaker 3: which is amazing. And she founds something called the People's

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Speaker 3: Law Firm, which eventually grows into a series of legal

314
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,440
Speaker 3: clinics all over the city for the immigrant poor. And

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Speaker 3: she does it for free. She doesn't take any money.

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Speaker 3: She has a sign outside that says, with a kipling quote,

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Speaker 3: you do the work for the good of the people.

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Speaker 3: And she's like Robin Hood, only ten times better. There's

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Speaker 3: all these stories that come out of this that these

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Speaker 3: immigrant New Yorkers are going through these horrible situations with

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Speaker 3: bad bosses and bad husbands, and she just solves all

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Speaker 3: of these things on the fly without even getting the

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Speaker 3: law involved. And they'd pay her in bread and they

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Speaker 3: make her clothes and stuff, and it's just really amazing

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 2: What was the.

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Speaker 1: Strength from her. I can imagine if you're in law

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Speaker 1: school and you're coming out and you're young attorney. Is

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Speaker 1: it attention to detail? Is it just a deep knowledge

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Speaker 1: after reading so much of the law, or is it

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Speaker 1: just a cute attention to forensics that were available at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: What made her brilliant?

334
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,720
Speaker 3: There were teachers that she said she liked, and they

335
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Speaker 3: focused on the practical aspects of law, not the euretical

336
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 3: kind of academic Ivory tower that she was really interested

337
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,119
Speaker 3: in getting her hands dirdy. And one thing we do

338
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 3: know is her father, who she really looked up to,

339
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,199
Speaker 3: was an insurance claims adjuster, but he would often be

340
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 3: in court because he would testify and court was a

341
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,680
Speaker 3: lot especially that kind of cos a lot different than

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00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,159
Speaker 3: is now, and he would really help people. And so

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Speaker 3: I think this really affected her because her father died

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Speaker 3: right kind of before she went to law school, and

345
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Speaker 3: that's around the time she started to wear black, and

346
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Speaker 3: she wore all black her entire life, and nobody really

347
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 3: knew why. It's because of her father, but I think

348
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Speaker 3: she really liked that being able to help people.

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Speaker 1: Did you get a sense for her personality? We obviously

350
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Speaker 1: can tell she's probably pretty headstrong and she's very smart.

351
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Speaker 2: Was she clever was she stern? Was she warm?

352
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Speaker 3: One of the main mysteries of the book, there's the

353
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Speaker 3: mystery of Ruth Krueger. But to me, the other mystery

354
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Speaker 3: that I really tried to solve was who was Grace Hoiston,

355
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,639
Speaker 3: because she's just as much a mystery to me. But

356
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 3: she was those things. She was very smart, very sharp, witty,

357
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 3: and warm. She loved to go shopping. She would often

358
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 3: show up in court late with like all these bags

359
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,680
Speaker 3: from the department stores and she would say, well, there

360
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 3: was a sale on this, and so very endearing. I

361
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,919
Speaker 3: think too. Once she was on a case, there was

362
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,360
Speaker 3: really and this is a cliche, but there was nothing

363
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 3: that could deter her from finding what happened. And I

364
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 3: think that's kind of just a very kind of lateral

365
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 3: thinking mind open to any possibility.

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00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: So early spring nineteen seventeen, mister Krueger, who is Ruth's father,

367
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: has hired this hot shot attorney who has a heart

368
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,159
Speaker 1: of gold, who wants to help immigrants, and it's just

369
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 1: really keen on solving crimes. What is her first step,

370
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: aside from explaining to both the police and the media

371
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: that she needs to receive all of the clues before

372
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: everyone else does.

373
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 3: Every Sherlock Holmes says Watson, she has this terrific character

374
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 3: named Julius J. Cron, who's this Hungarian federal agent. He

375
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 3: was known as the man who couldn't be bribed, and

376
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 3: he has a scar down his left sheek, and he's

377
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 3: just a dream to write about. But she hires him immediately,

378
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 3: and she says, the first thing we're going to do

379
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 3: is we're going to read everything. And she locks herself

380
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 3: up in her office and takes every piece of evidence

381
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,880
Speaker 3: that the police have handed over because the police are

382
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 3: done with it, so they hand everything to Ruth's father

383
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 3: and she just reads it all. And she emerges a

384
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 3: few days later and says, we need to look at

385
00:20:46,720 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 3: Alfredo Coach, who ran the skating store. What I didn't say,

386
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 3: I forgot to say is that in those first few

387
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 3: weeks Coachi disappears. When I say this, people are like, oh,

388
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 3: he's guilty, he did it, But it was more everyone

389
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 3: thought that he was just feared for his life.

390
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

391
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a time period and people have says

392
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 3: to me too, like New York kind of vacillates with

393
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 3: who's to blame for something, And at this period it

394
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 3: was very heavily anti Italian.

395
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 2: The police were Irish, right.

396
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: Yes, and he was terrified that they were going to

397
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 3: plant evidence and he would go to sing sing and

398
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 3: die on the chair. So he disappeared, and his wife

399
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 3: had no idea where he went, and she had two kids,

400
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 3: and so she was running the motorcycle shop. But Grace

401
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 3: came out of her research hole and said, we need

402
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 3: to look at Alfredo Kochi. And there were all these

403
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 3: other stories of the cab drivers and all these other

404
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 3: sightings of Ruth all over the city, but she narrowed

405
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 3: down that that was the path to go down.

406
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 1: Did the press harass Alfredo Kochie at all? When the

407
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 1: police first revealed that this was literally the last person

408
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: aside from her killer or her kidnapper, who had seen

409
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 1: her alive, they must have just gone on attack at him,

410
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: I would assume.

411
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: I think he left early enough to avoid the big

412
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 3: brunt of that. But they did it in little insidious ways,

413
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 3: like you know, the dark eyed Italian whose level of

414
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 3: English is very the burly or so, they really painted

415
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 3: him like the villain. Yeah, so they definitely started that.

416
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 3: One of the major enemies at this time in New

417
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 3: York was the Black hand. And this was this mafia

418
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 3: group that would kidnap people and send you these terrible

419
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 3: handwritten letters with like black hearts and daggers and say,

420
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: you know, you have to pay me this money if

421
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 3: you want to see her whoever back And many people

422
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 3: now I'll say, oh, the black can was all made up.

423
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: But there I found all these cases of just horrific.

424
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 3: There is one where they took a kid, an infant,

425
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 3: and by the time the family could afford to pay

426
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 3: the ransom, he didn't recognize his parents. And this is

427
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 3: a police report. So at the core of all this

428
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 3: just hysteria, there was bad stuff happening.

429
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: Now we have talked about the Irish police targeting Italian immigrants,

430
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: which is very well documented, especially in Gilded Age and

431
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds of New York City. I'm assuming that

432
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 1: Grace Hummiston actually has evidence this is her targeting Alfredo

433
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: Kochie because she actually has dug up something.

434
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: What does she think she's found?

435
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 3: So that is such a terrific question because my answer

436
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: is not what you think it's going to be. This

437
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 3: goes back to your last question a while ago, is

438
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: why is she a great lawyer? She becomes this lawyer,

439
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 3: but then she finds out that because she can't trust

440
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: the police half the time, she has to become a detective,

441
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 3: so she has to go looking for clues and weigh

442
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 3: one against the other and what's good and what's bad evidence,

443
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 3: And she still throughout her whole career she says she

444
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 3: relies on female intuition, and the newspapers always put this

445
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 3: with her Missus Sherlock Holmes, her intuition is impeccable, but

446
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: clearly it's not just that. For her, it was that

447
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 3: he was the last person to see her, and he

448
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: did disappear, and everyone agreed that he was fearing for

449
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 3: his own life, but he was still the last one

450
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 3: to see her, and when the sister went back that night,

451
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: he was gone, and the shop was supposed to be open.

452
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: So I think it's that just the kind of the

453
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 3: bare facts if he was the last one, combined with

454
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 3: that feeling that something was going on. They didn't know,

455
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: so she wanted to focus on him. And what she

456
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 3: desperately wanted to do was get in that motorcycle shop

457
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 3: been searched at this time three times by the police,

458
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 3: and she didn't trust that, and she said, I want

459
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: to get in there, and I want to search it.

460
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 3: But missus Kochi, she was writing the store now, she

461
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 3: was pretty helpful and amenable. She had had enough. She said,

462
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 3: no one is coming in this store again, no more searches,

463
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: leave me alone, leave my children alone. You're just out

464
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 3: to get poor al, she would say. But Grace wanted in.

465
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 3: She wanted in bad.

466
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: Okay.

467
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: So I don't know whether warrants were required back then.

468
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: But she's an attorney, so what are her avenues to

469
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: get into that shop?

470
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, so that's the first thing she does, goes

471
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: to the police, Can you help me out? Blah blah blah.

472
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 3: The police are no help. They look at her and

473
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 3: she has by this time a tremendous resume, but they

474
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 3: don't help. They say the case is closed, and they

475
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 3: say there's no reason to go back in, and they

476
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: keep going back to the fact that it's been searched

477
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 3: three times by detectives and they say there's nothing there.

478
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: So she has left with kind of the impossible mystery

479
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 3: of having this place under the ground, the basement that

480
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: she really wants to search, but she has no way

481
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 3: into it.

482
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: Okay, So what's her next step is Julius J. Cron

483
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: show up and kick in some doors or what can

484
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: be done.

485
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 3: Well, it's even better than that. And this is why

486
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: I really like her, because she's so smart. So she

487
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: realizes that since Coachie's gone, there's nobody to fix motorcycles.

488
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: So she meets with Kron and she says, we got

489
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 3: to get in that basement. And he says, how we can't,

490
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: We can't, we can't, And she asks him, do you

491
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: know how to fix motorcycles? Smart? And it takes them

492
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: a minute, but he gets it, and so he has

493
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 3: never met missus Coachy. So he shows up the next

494
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: day and applies for the job, and she looks them

495
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: up and down and she says, okay, okay, and he

496
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 3: has no idea how to fix the motorcycle. What he

497
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: does is he goes in during the day and just

498
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 3: kind of moves things around and tries to memorize. I

499
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 3: always thought this his great feat, but then I saw

500
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 3: motorcycles in nineteen seventeen are really just kind of bicycles

501
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 3: with like a sewing machine engine on them, not that

502
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 3: I could fix it. And he would memorize it and

503
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 3: then go home and stay up all night going through

504
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 3: all these manuals and go in the next day and

505
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 3: fix them.

506
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

507
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 3: It worked. And he stayed there for a week, but

508
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 3: came two and the only thing is she would never

509
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 3: let him down the basement. He was very suspicious of this,

510
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: and he would tell Grace and the whole team. She

511
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 3: has a team. By now, they're all like hidden down

512
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: the street in the back of a candy store, which

513
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 3: is great. I got to learn all about nineteen seventeen

514
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: candy and it's just tremendous. So finally one day comes

515
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 3: and he has to file something down and he knows

516
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 3: it's in the basement. She won't let him use it,

517
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 3: and he goes, I'll go down the street. And he's

518
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: earned her trust by now, and she says, just go

519
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: down the basement. It'll take two minutes. So he goes

520
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: down and he looks around and everything's clean, floors clean,

521
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 3: there's a toolbox, there's a table, but there's very little

522
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 3: in the basement, and he's looking for bloodstains. He's looking

523
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 3: for signs of a struggle. He's also looking for this

524
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: was new to me. He was looking for shiny new

525
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 3: nails because apparently that would mean that something was behind them. Oh,

526
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: interesting that he had created some kind of a space.

527
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: Right, okay, put somebody behind a wall or something.

528
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So he finds nothing, and so he's like, okay,

529
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 3: I got to go back up. And he's just like

530
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 3: devastated by this nothing. And he's a train detective, and

531
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: so he starts to go up, and he just stops

532
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: for one second because he wants to look in the

533
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 3: back corner and he hits that moment that everyone's had

534
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 3: when you've just gone too far, when you've stayed too long.

535
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: And he knows that she knows, and he hears her

536
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 3: scream from upstairs. You get up here right now. And

537
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 3: he gets up. She throws him against the wall. She

538
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 3: has a hammer and she says, I see you, I

539
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 3: know you now. She goes, you are here to get

540
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 3: poor Al get out, and she throws him out and

541
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: he walks down the street to the candy store. And

542
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 3: he says later that this was the lowest part of

543
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: his career, not that he didn't find anything in the basement,

544
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 3: but that he disappointed Missus Hamiston, who he adored. So

545
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: he goes back and he goes, I blew it, but

546
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: he said, he goes, I didn't see anything. There was

547
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: nothing wrong, but I know there's something in that basement.

548
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: Does she figure out another way to get down there?

549
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: She gets a permit from another court to dig into

550
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: the sewers, to kind of maybe come right up close

551
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: to the basement. This is weird. I just realized this.

552
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: This is what archaeologists do in Jerusalem. They're not allowed

553
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: to like dig like right by any temple, but they

554
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,239
Speaker 3: get a permit to do like one inch away from it.

555
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: She did that, which is really ingenius, found a lot

556
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: of weird stuff, but she still couldn't get in, and

557
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 3: they basically gave up. They had dug this huge pit

558
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: in the middle of the street. The police were furious,

559
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: the street was furious. The newspapers thought she was insane,

560
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: and Cron didn't know anything she could do, and he

561
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 3: had kind of resigned himself that they would never solve

562
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: this case. And then she comes walking down the street

563
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: that she had finally found a way into the basement.

564
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: She'd bought the motorcycle shop.

565
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's nice to be an attorney detective

566
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: with lots of money. Yeah.

567
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. It apparently it had been up for sale and

568
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: no one had known because she wanted out because she

569
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: couldn't afford to run it.

570
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, missus Coachee.

571
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, missus coachy and Grace found out and went

572
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: and did some secretive private sale and came back with

573
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 3: the deed to the place and she said, go in

574
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: start digging.

575
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: Well, boy, that must have just sent missus Coachee through

576
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: the roof when she realized who she had sold her

577
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: motorcycle shop to.

578
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: That's incredible.

579
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like she didn't know, because Grace was

580
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: very adamant that she went through a third party, and

581
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 3: there's no way she would know it was her, but

582
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 3: she had to know in selling it that finally, if

583
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: there were any secrets, they would be laid bare.

584
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: But if you don't have money, what choice do you

585
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: have in nineteen seventeen New York. I mean, you're not

586
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: going to get a loan. Probably at that point her

587
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: husband was a suspect and he can't do anything. She

588
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: doesn't have anybody who can reliably fix motorcycles, so she

589
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: had no choice. So that was really smart. Okay, she

590
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: owns the motorcycle shop and she sends Julius and I'm

591
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: assuming her other team from the candy store down into

592
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: the basement and they start wrecking everything.

593
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: I guess to figure out what's down there.

594
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. So one of the things that really helped me

595
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: in this book was photographs, and there were a lot

596
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 3: of photographs of the street. And I found this great

597
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: photograph of the store of Metropolitan Motorcycles. And one of

598
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: the things I never noticed about it even after it

599
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: was printed in the book is I was giving a

600
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: talk at some point and someone said, look in the

601
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: front door, and if you look in the front door,

602
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 3: there's Coachy in shadow, just staring out. And I say

603
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 3: this because one of the photos I found next was

604
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: in front of the motorcycle store on the day they

605
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 3: went in and dug up the basement, and the crowd

606
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: stretches down the whole street filled with people. They're hanging

607
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: out of windows, they're up on rooftops and it looks

608
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: like a party. There's men with their sons, they're holding

609
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 3: them up on their shoulders, they're wearing hats. It's in

610
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 3: the summer. And I realized when I saw that picture,

611
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 3: at that moment, they had no idea what was going

612
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: to come out of that cellar. They were hoping it

613
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 3: would be Ruth, who was fine who was in captivity,

614
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 3: and there were stories of that that she was being

615
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 3: held against her will. They hoped that she would be

616
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: hale and hardy and fine. And Kron goes in and

617
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: they start digging and they find a hole under this

618
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 3: huge workbench and he goes in and he finds Ruth

619
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: and he goes out, and they call missus Hummiston in

620
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 3: and she goes in and she comes out and someone

621
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: takes her picture and she has her head in her hands.

622
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 3: And the next picture they're taking a makeshift almost cardboard

623
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 3: coffin out of the motorcycle store with a single flower

624
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: on it, and this is Ruth who's dead. So they

625
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: know it was Coachy who's in the wind. But she

626
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: solved the case. And I think that's really important because

627
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: she didn't find her alive, but it's really important she

628
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 3: saw the case because it was completely given up on.

629
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 3: And I think maybe more important is that she proved

630
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: Ruth's father right, that this wasn't Ruth's fault, This was

631
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: someone else's fault, This wasn't anything she did, and she

632
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 3: was so adamant on that with the rest of her career.

633
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: I mean, this just drives her life. Is that She

634
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 3: thinks that we should approach missing girl cases from the

635
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: point of they did nothing wrong, something wrong was done

636
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: to them, and this seems like such an easy change

637
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 3: in logic, but it's still not done. So they bring

638
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 3: Ruth out and it's the end of the case. But

639
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: there's lots more she thinks to be done.

640
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 1: What do we know happened once Ruth went into that

641
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: motorcycle shop and met Alfredo Kochi, He hands over these skates.

642
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: Do we have any idea what happened between them?

643
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 3: There's an autopsy, and there's a couple clues. No one

644
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: outright says that she was assaulted or raped. There's a

645
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: couple clues that she may have been. There's language that

646
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: says she had a slasher's mark, which is sometimes used

647
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 3: for that. And part of the autopsy is strange because

648
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 3: things disappear after it. But who we have is after

649
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 3: she has found All of a sudden, there's an ap

650
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 3: The reporter who's in Italy, who follows a lead and

651
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 3: runs into Alfredo Cocchi who is sitting outside Bologna, you know,

652
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: in a bicycle store, and he says, what do you

653
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 3: know of Ruth Krueger? And he says, oh, she was nice,

654
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 3: she came in, she did her He's like, I had

655
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 3: to leave. He says, my wife was crazy, this sort

656
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 3: of typical explanation that somehow will solve everything. And he says,

657
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 3: you know they're going to try and extradite you now

658
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: that I've found you. And he says for what, And

659
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: he says for Ruth's death, and he said, oh, she

660
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 3: was a pretty girl, that's all.

661
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 2: Could they even figure out the cause of death.

662
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 3: They said she was stabbed through the back. We do

663
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 3: have an account of what happened from Coachi himself after

664
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 3: they find him in Italy. He's taken into custody by

665
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 3: the Italian authorities and he's questioned. He's in a prison

666
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 3: tower in these really medieval conditions and the judge himself

667
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: and questions him, and we have a record of that,

668
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: and it's very surreal because Coachi it changes his story

669
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: many times, and sometimes he just keeps laughing and won't stop.

670
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: And eventually he goes to trials. There's a couple attempts

671
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: at this, and there's a big push to bring him

672
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 3: back to New York to stand trial, but he does not,

673
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: so it's held in Italy. And he finally admits to

674
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: doing it, and he says that she just came in

675
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: and like so many of these stories, she rebuffed his

676
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: advances and she tried to fight him, and he threw

677
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: her down into the basement and killed her. He's sentenced

678
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 3: to a lifetime in this tower. And one of the

679
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: strangest parts of the story there's no death penalty in Italy,

680
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 3: is that I found that he was released after decades.

681
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 3: I think it was nineteen forty seven. The only record

682
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: that I found said that he was parole and indeed rehabilitated.

683
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 3: So in nineteen forty seven, the doors open and he

684
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: walked out.

685
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: Were there any sort of charges that they could file

686
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: against missus Kochie?

687
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: Do we think she knew if she knew something, she

688
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: knew he did something in that basement.

689
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, she actually testifies against him. There's a whole line

690
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: of the people in New York. Finally, the police are

691
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 3: kind of motivated to do something, and she testifies against him,

692
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 3: and I think that goes a long way in keeping

693
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 3: her free from any sort of litigation. I think the

694
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: times were very different in going after a wife with

695
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: two kids on this, but I do think she makes

696
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 3: her situation better by testifying against her husband, and she

697
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: ends up. She stays in New York. The last record

698
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: I founded her she became a naturalized American citizen. There

699
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 3: was plenty of stories that he had been cheating on

700
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: her with other women, and one particularly awful story that

701
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 3: kind of really sent them towards the store was Crone

702
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 3: uncovered that there was a little girl who lived across

703
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: the street who he would fix her bike, and at

704
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 3: one point he said, well, come down in the basement

705
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 3: and I'll make it go faster. And she went down

706
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 3: and her mother heard a scream and she ran out

707
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 3: and she said that he had tried to put his

708
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: hands on her.

709
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, he sounds terrible, and then he was

710
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: walking free in Italy. Does Ruth's family, the Kruegers, feel

711
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: any sort of redemption being able to reclaim her reputation

712
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: or how did they end up?

713
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 3: They did, okay, they stayed out of the limelight, and

714
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 3: they don't seem to have had it affect them on

715
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: a professional or in part of the news and the

716
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 3: media and everything like it did. But of course, you know,

717
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 3: we don't know the horrific personal cost it must have had.

718
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: And how does this affect the way people perceive Grace Hummiston.

719
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: At this point, we already know that she would as

720
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: a respected attorney and then she turned detective. But now

721
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: she did something that the police in New York City

722
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen couldn't do.

723
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 3: She becomes the hero. Now's the point where she becomes

724
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: super famous. In the newspapers call her Missus Sherlock Holmes,

725
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: which she really hates. It's a cool nickname, but it's

726
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: not any kind of nickname because it's not her name.

727
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 3: It's just Missus, fictional character. But she was mad at

728
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: it because she said she doesn't use deduction the way

729
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: Holmes does. She says she kind of scoffs and says

730
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: that's for amateurs. So yeah, she becomes the toast of

731
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 3: the town and she's in the newspapers, she gets interviews,

732
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: she speaks at ladies' lunches and the whole nine yards.

733
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 2: So let's end on a note of what are the

734
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: big takeaways from this story? Is it tenacity?

735
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: Is it police not giving up on a case or

736
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: the media falling for victimizing the victim?

737
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the positive things at least I got

738
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 3: from the story that even when all those things are

739
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 3: aligned against the truth, which is what happened to Ruth, media, cops,

740
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 3: corrupt police, and it turns out that the police knew

741
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 3: about Coachy and many of them were friends with him.

742
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 3: And she becomes the first person to bring charges after

743
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 3: this against the NYPD, and tons of people get fired

744
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 3: over it. But it's that idea that if you look

745
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 3: hard enough, you can find the truth. But it's also

746
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: just I like your word, the tenacity and the mission

747
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: of it all. She knows there's an answer out there,

748
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 3: and she doesn't know what it is, but she's willing

749
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: to take those steps to try and define it a

750
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: little more like I don't know exactly what happened to

751
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: Ruth Krueger, right, I don't know exactly who Grace was,

752
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 3: but I know enough to tell a story about it.

753
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 3: And I think that that's kind of what she was doing,

754
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 3: is cutting through all the other things to take away

755
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: from that to get at the truth.

756
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Candas Millard on

757
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: Death on the Nile.

758
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 5: So they're attacked early on one night. Another member of

759
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 5: the expedition is killed, speak is stabbed eleven times. It's

760
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 5: really miraculous that he survives, and Burton has a javelin

761
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 5: thrust through his jaw from cheek to cheek, leaving this

762
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 5: great scar.

763
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 4: Down his face.

764
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 5: And so it ends right then, and they've lost sort

765
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 5: of everything that they've put into it.

766
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for

767
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked

768
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked.

769
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of Killer

770
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book

771
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Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

772
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Speaker 1: right tenfold more Media production. The producer is Alexismirosi. Our

773
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen.

774
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork.

775
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark,

776
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

777
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

778
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: tenfold More. And if you know of a historical crime

779
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in

780
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Speaker 1: your family. Email us at info at tenfoldwoar wicked dot com.

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words