1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. On the morning of Saturday, February twenty first, 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, Patricia Norfleet found a box. No 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: one can really say for certain how the box got there, 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: but there it was, sitting on a little wooden desk 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: in the library. As a part time library monitor at 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: the public Library in Scottsdale, Arizona's Civic Center, she was 7 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: making her regular rounds. It was her job to make 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: sure people weren't eating or talking on their phones, and 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: that's when she spot at the box. The librarian at 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: the circulation desk that morning recognized the name on the box. 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: It was addressed to a city employee, but he didn't 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: work in the library. Don Logan was the director of 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: the city's Office of Diversity and Dialogue. Librarians are busy people, 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: and they aren't responsible for your lost mail, so the 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: package was set aside. Maybe Don left it there and 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: he'd come back for it. The package sat behind the 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: circulation desk for a few days before another library employee 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: thought to pop it into the city's inner office mail system. Finally, 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: five days after the box appeared on a desk in 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: the library, it found its way into the hands of 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 1: the man whose name was on the box. Don Logan 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: had just returned from a quick lunch at his favorite 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: Mexican restaurant on February twenty six, two thousand and four. 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: A colleague told him he had a package in the 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: mail room. Someone joked that it was probably a bomb, 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: and everyone had a good laugh, but he gave it 27 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: a good shake anyway. It was oddly light for its size, 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: and it was sealed with more tape than really seemed necessary. 29 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: His administrative assistant, Ranita, was on the phone, but she 30 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: didn't miss a beat. She passed her boss a pair 31 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: of scissors without even looking up from her work. As 32 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: he ran the blade of the scissors down the seam 33 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: on one side of the box, he thought for a 34 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: second about the laugh he'd just shared with his colleagues. 35 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: But what a silly idea. Why are you being so paranoid? 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: He asked himself. Who would send you a bomb? And 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: then he heard a loud and the room went dark. 38 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: It didn't take long for investigators to zero in on 39 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: a suspect, but it would be eight years before an 40 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: ATF informant took the stand to tell a jury about 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: the years she'd spent getting close to that bomber. Dennis 42 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: Mahon built that bomb, But this chapter of our bomber 43 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: story starts with a bomb he probably didn't make. I'm 44 00:02:40,960 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: Molly Coner, and this is weird, little guys. At eight 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: fifty seven am on the morning of April nineteenth, nineteen 46 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: ninety five, a rented Yellow Rider truck parked outside the 47 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: Alpha Pi Mura Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City. The 48 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: driver got out, locked the truck, and walked away. At 49 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: nine oh two, the bomb went off. The truck contained 50 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: nearly five thousand pounds of explosive material. Seismometers at a 51 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: nearby science museum registered what looked like an earthquake, measuring 52 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: three point zero on the Richter scale. In just seconds, 53 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: the northern portion of the building collapsed completely. One hundred 54 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: and sixty eight people were killed, nineteen of them were children. 55 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: One was just three months old. The building housed regional 56 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: offices for a number of federal government agencies, housing in 57 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: Urban Development, Veterans Affairs, Social Security Administration, the DEA at ATF, 58 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: and several military recruiting offices, but the truck had parked 59 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: directly under the building stake care center. The man responsible 60 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: was apprehended rather quickly and entirely by accident. Timothy McVeigh 61 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: was on his way out of town and a getaway 62 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: car he'd stashed nearby before the bombing when he was 63 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: pulled over by a state trooper. The car he was 64 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: driving didn't have a license plate. During the traffic stop, 65 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: the trooper noticed a bulge in his jacket concealing a 66 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: loaded firearm. He didn't have a valid permit. For the 67 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: rest of his story, you probably already know. He was 68 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: convicted and sentenced to death. He was executed by lethal 69 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: injection on June eleventh, two thousand and one. But this 70 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: isn't a story about Timothy McVeigh, not really, maybe another day. 71 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: This is still a story about Dennis Mayhon, and it's 72 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: a story that gets very murky for a year or 73 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: two in the mid nineties. When we last left Dennis Mayhon, 74 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: it was the summer of nineteen nine four. He had 75 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: just struck up a relationship with Carol Howe, a woman 76 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: twenty years his junior. She was the daughter of a 77 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: wealthy business man and had once been a debutante in Tulsa. 78 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: But now that she was sporting a giant swastika tattoo 79 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: on her arm. She was more at home on paramilitary 80 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: compounds than at ladies luncheons. In March of nineteen ninety four, 81 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: she and her husband were getting drunk in Tulsa's Chandler 82 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: Park when she broke bones in both of her feet 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: jumping off a piece of scenery set up for a 84 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: passion play that was put on every year by the 85 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: local Catholic church. For years, Carol would tell people she'd 86 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: been injured by a gang of black men. It was 87 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: a better origin story, and the crowd she was hoping 88 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: to impress was eager to believe a tale of a beautiful, 89 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: young white woman coming to harm at the hands of 90 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: vicious black men. And as she lay in bed convalescing, 91 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: she started calling in to the dial E racist hotline 92 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: run by Dennis Mayhon. Every day she listened to a 93 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: new recording of Dennis ranting and raving about whatever was 94 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: on his mind, scourge of immigration and Jewish influence on society, 95 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: violent crime committed by black people, and the need for 96 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: white men to stand up. Soon, she wasn't just listening 97 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: to Dennis's recordings. They met at a restaurant later that 98 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: spring and struck up a relationship. Everything that follows is 99 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: a riddle. I won't tell you what's true because I can't. 100 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: I can only tell you what was offered as truth 101 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: and by whom. Sometimes it's possible to speculate as to 102 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: why someone offered up a particular version of the truth. 103 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: Are they protecting themselves or someone else? Are they wielding 104 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: their words as a weapon hoping to incriminate an enemy? 105 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: Are they covering up another darker truth? Are they misremembering 106 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: or confused? Are they repeating a lie that they sincerely believe? 107 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: Or have they simply lost their minds? The two competing 108 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: truths I most often compare are those offered up in 109 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: a federal court record. There is a prosecutor's presentation of 110 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: evidence and a defense attorney's argument against it. In a 111 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: court of law, the judge and jury make their findings, 112 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: and at the end of a trial we have something 113 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: that is legally true, whether it's the whole truth or 114 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: even true at all in any other sense. We have 115 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: the judicial systems stamp of approval on one version of 116 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: the truth. And we kind of have that here because 117 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: I'll spoil the end now in the interests of full transparency, 118 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: as far as a court of law has weighed in 119 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: on the matter, Dennis Mayhon had nothing to do with 120 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols alone 121 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: were responsible. The Department of Justice wrote in a letter 122 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: to Timothy mcvay's defense attorney that Dennis Mayhon was never 123 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: a subject of their investigation into the bombing. When speaking 124 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: to the press, Dennis himself has always denied any involvement, 125 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: although when faced with a grand jury, he reportedly invoked 126 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. As I research 127 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: my weird little guys, I often find myself navigating the 128 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: stories of unreliable narrators. I do my best to take 129 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: in every version of a story and do my own 130 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: primary source research on the surrounding facts, and offer you 131 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: these competing versions of the truth with some commentary. My 132 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: goal on this show is not to give you something 133 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: that I can guarantee to be an objective truth, to 134 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: the extent that such a thing exists, but rather to 135 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: present you a thoroughly researched synthesis of those mismatched truths 136 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: for you to consider. But I'm not sure we can 137 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: even get that far this time, too many researchers have 138 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: gone mad trying to sift for truths in the rubble 139 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: of the Alpha Pi Mura building. But with that said, 140 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: let's rejoin Carol and Dennis in nineteen ninety four. There 141 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: are some things every one can agree on. Carol and 142 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: Dennis spent a lot of time together that summer, and 143 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: by June of nineteen ninety four, she began accompanying him 144 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: on trips out to Ellaheim City, a Christian identity compound 145 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma near the Arkansas border. The four hundred acre 146 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: community was led by a Christian identity minister named Robert Miller, 147 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: who settled there in nineteen seventy three. An article published 148 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: in The Oklahoma in nineteen ninety three puts the population 149 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: in Elleheim City around seventy five residents at the time. 150 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: The Peace quotes Miller extensively, and he paints the small 151 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: community as a quiet, peaceful group of religious separatists. He 152 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: downplays his connections to the Covenant, the Sword and the 153 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: Arm of the Lord, a Christian identity militia compound in 154 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: Missouri that was rated by federal authorities in nineteen eighty five. 155 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: Miller says there was quote not a long or profound 156 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: connection between the two groups. He fails to mention that 157 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: he had been CSA leader James Ellison's spiritual adviser, or 158 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: that when Ellison declared himself King James of the Ozarks 159 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty two, it had been Miller who anointed 160 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,119 Speaker 1: Ellison's head with holy oils in a bizarre religious ceremony, 161 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: or that it was Miller who was called in to 162 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: negotiate Ellison's surrender and the ATF besieged his compound in 163 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, or that Allison was one of several 164 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: residents of the CSA compound who would later settle in 165 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: Elaheim City, or that Ellison married Miller's granddaughter, or that 166 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: Miller had testified as a character witness for Richard Snell, 167 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: a CSA member sentenced to death for the murder of 168 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: a state trooper. So I'm not sure what he means 169 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: when he says he has no connection to the Covenant 170 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: the sword in the arm of the Lord, and I 171 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: think you need to take his description of a quiet 172 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: community of prayerful families with some skepticism. There were quite 173 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: a few residents of Eloaheim City in the nineteen eighties 174 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: and nineties whose stories would take us too far from 175 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: the one we're following today, So suffice it to say 176 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: for now that we'll be revisiting that place. But in 177 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Dennis Mayhon kept an old airstream trailer 178 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: on the property, and he would stay there from time 179 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: to time while maintaining his full time residence in Tulsa. 180 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 1: It wasn't long after Carol Howe got close to Dennis 181 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: Mayhon that their relationship soured. By most accounts, Dennis raped her. 182 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: She said that the experience left her terrified, and she 183 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: fled to her parents' house to lay low for a 184 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: few weeks, but Dennis wouldn't leave her alone. After repeated 185 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: threatening phone calls and more than one unwanted visit, she 186 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: realized he wasn't going to take no for an answer. 187 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: On August twenty third, she went to a courthouse in 188 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: Tulsa to get a restraining order against him. The petition 189 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: must have caught the eye of Angela Fine, an agent 190 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, because by 191 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: the end of the week, Carol Howe was on the 192 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: ATF payroll as a federal informant. The hearing to determine 193 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: if Carol Howe's restraining order against Dennis Mahon would be granted, 194 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: was held on September sixth, nineteen ninety four, but Carol 195 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: wasn't there and the judge dismissed her petition. I can't 196 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: tell you exactly where Carol was instead of the courthouse 197 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: that day. It's possible that she was at Elheim City 198 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: that week. Where she was exactly on any given day 199 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: in particular wouldn't matter all too much if not for 200 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: the fact that these sources that place her there in 201 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: the first week of September put her on the compound's 202 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: gun range with Dennis and Timothy McVeigh, and that would 203 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: be an incredible revelation if we had a good source 204 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: for it. I don't want to harp on the problem 205 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: of the unreliable narrator, but I think this anecdote in 206 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: particular highlights the problem with this story. Because I read 207 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: an unhealthy number of books about the events leading up 208 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: to the Oklahoma City bombing. I read books written by professors, lawyers, criminals, journalists, 209 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: and conspiracy theorists. Some are well footnoted and others count 210 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: on you to just trust the author's account. A claim 211 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: that's repeated across multiple sources gives it the appearance of validity, 212 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: but sometimes, if you look closely at those footnotes, it 213 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: all leads back to the same bad source, and this 214 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: story is one of those. Criminology professor Mark Hamm credits 215 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: this anecdote to an unnamed source, and his claim is 216 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: repeated in a later book by prolific true crime author 217 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: Michael Newton, and the story also appears in a book 218 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: written by David Paul Hammer. Hammer is a convicted murderer 219 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: who befriended McVeigh when they were housed in neighboring cells 220 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,599 Speaker 1: on death Row, and Hammer claims McVeigh told him this 221 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: story himself. The point I'm circling around here, I guess, 222 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: is that extensive research doesn't always mean you've found something valuable. 223 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: I found this claim in three separate books, and it's 224 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: a very intriguing anecdote, and it would be very satisfying 225 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: to believe, but I don't. Timothy McVay maintained until his 226 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: death that he'd never met Dennis Mahon. Dennis has told 227 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: a variety of stories, mostly he says they never met. 228 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: He told mcvay's defense attorney that they'd never met, and 229 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: court filings in mcvay's case show there was no evidence 230 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: that they had. He did tell journalist John Ronson that 231 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: they'd met once, a man he shared a cell with 232 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine claims Dennis told him that 233 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: he'd once sold Timothy mcveay some guns and a copy 234 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: of the Anarchist Cookbook. He told several grand juries nothing 235 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: at all. So I suppose we should stick with the 236 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: pieces of this timeline that I am more inclined to believe. 237 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: And from the end of August nineteen ninety four until 238 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: March of nineteen ninety five, Carol Howe met regularly with 239 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: her ATF handlers. She passed them information, they wrote reports, 240 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: and she spent most weekends at Elheim City with Dennis. 241 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: Something I think is important to remember here is that 242 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: the ATF hired Carol Howe as part of their investigation 243 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: into Dennis Mayhon and White Arian resistance. The copies of 244 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: Agent Finley's reports that I've been able to see for 245 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: myself show that quite clearly it's a standard piece of 246 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: government paperwork, and there's boxes to fill out at the top. 247 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: In the box labeled title of investigation. She's typed White 248 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: Aryan Resistance and under monitored investigation information she entered firearms violations. 249 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: So Agent Finley is looking into White Aryan Resistance and 250 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: the possibility that its members have illegal guns. This wasn't 251 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: an investigation into Elleheim City, and it wasn't an investigation 252 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: into Andrea Strasmeier, that mysterious German who is head of 253 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: security at the compound and sometimes stayed at Dennis's house. 254 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: The AHF agents who met with Carol Howe weren't investigating 255 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: Timothy McVeigh, and they certainly weren't investigating the Oklahoma City 256 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: bombing because that hadn't happened yet. But Dennis had been 257 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: bragging for years about making bombs. He claims to have 258 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: carried out a string of bombing in Florida, Michigan, and 259 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: Oklahoma during his underground years from nineteen eighty two to 260 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven. He always stops short of specifics, but 261 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: he's told reporters and federal informants alike that he'd bombed 262 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: abortion clinics, Jewish community centers, and government office buildings during 263 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: those years. It's harder than you might think to find 264 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: historical record of an unsolved bombing in an unspecified place 265 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: at an unspecified time. But you know, I lost a 266 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: few days of my life trying to figure it out anyway. 267 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: Mainly I was looking for any evidence that a five 268 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: hundred pound ammonium nitrate bomb ever exploded under a truck 269 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: in Michigan, because that's something Carol Howe told her handlers 270 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: Dennis claimed to have done, and that's a big enough 271 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: bomb that it would have been in the news. I 272 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: tried pretty hard, and I couldn't find anything matching that description, 273 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. There was what 274 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: seemed at first to be a pretty promising lead when 275 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: I found some news stories about a string of pipe 276 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: bombs left in public places throughout the Midwest in nineteen 277 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: eighty four, but the man responsible was caught when he 278 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: accidentally detonated one in his own car. His motivations were inscrutable, 279 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: and he was ultimately diagnosed with schizophrenia and confined to 280 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: a state mental hospital. So those bombs weren't Denisis. I 281 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: did find some stories from the mid eighties in Michigan 282 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: about a pipe bomb left at a Jewish community center 283 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: in West Bloomfield and a bomb in a Detroit abortion 284 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: clinic that didn't detonate, and both of those appear to 285 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: have gone unsolved, but who knows, we probably never will. 286 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: Andrew Gumbel and Roger C. Charles's twenty twelve book on 287 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing is the only source I found 288 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: that highlights the fact that the the ATF had been 289 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: actively investigating Dennis Mayhon for a decade by the time 290 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: Carol Howe fell into their lap, and they must have 291 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: been keeping a pretty close eye on him, because within 292 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: a day of Carol Howe filing that petition for a 293 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: restraining order against him, there they were with an offer, 294 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: help us take him down. ATF Agent ANGELA. Finley's first 295 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: report summarizing information provided by Carol Howe is dated August thirtieth, 296 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, just a few days after Carol signed 297 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: on as an informant. Finley wrote in that report, War 298 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: has approximately twenty to twenty five active, fifty non active, 299 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: and two hundred underground members. Locally, the primary training location 300 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 1: is called Eloheim City. Mayhan has made numerous statements regarding 301 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: the conversion of firearms into fully automatic weapons, the manufacturer 302 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: and use of silencers, and the manufacturer and use of 303 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: explosive devices. Mayhan and his organization are preparing for a 304 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: race war and war with the govern in the near future, 305 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: and it is believed that they are rapidly stockpiling weapons. 306 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: Over the next few months, Carol and Dennis spent more 307 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: and more time together at Eloheim City, with weekend trips 308 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: stretching into weeks long stays on the compound. They detonated 309 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: his home made grenades together in the woods, and she 310 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: pocketed the fragments, handing them over to the ATF as evidence. 311 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: In one report that fall, agent Finlay wrote that Carol 312 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: had reported Mayhan has talked with Carol about targeting federal 313 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: installations for destruction through bombings, such as the IRS Building, 314 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: the Tulsa Federal Building, and the Oklahoma City Federal Building. 315 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: Mayhan has also discussed a plan for destroying power lines 316 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: from Oklahoma City to Catoosa, Oklahoma, during the hottest time 317 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: of summer. Mayhon reasons this will create a panic and 318 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: without air conditioning, mass race riots would begin. I guess 319 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: accelerationist thinking really hasn't evolved much in thirty years, because 320 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: that's Dennis in nineteen ninety four thinking. He can start 321 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: the race war by turning out the lights, and today's 322 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: neo Nazis are still trying to do it. Carol also 323 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: told the agents that a man named Andy often spoke 324 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: with Dennis about the need for real violence. He was 325 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: talking about assassinations, mass shootings, and bombings. Carol said this 326 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: Andy guy was saying things like it's time to stop 327 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: talking and start blowing things up. When she met with 328 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: Agent Finley again in January of nineteen ninety five, after 329 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: spending most of December on the compound, Carol had more 330 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,959 Speaker 1: information about Andy. He was Andrea Strossmeyer, Eloheim City's head 331 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: of security. Strassmeyer was a German national who was in 332 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: the United States illegally, which you might think would make 333 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: it difficult for him to purchase large quantities of firearms, 334 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: but he seemed to manage to find no one was 335 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: thinking anything at all about Timothy McVay in January of 336 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, but Strasmeyer would later admit that he 337 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: had met McVeagh at a gun show in Tulsa in 338 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. When Strasmeyer finally spoke to the FBI 339 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six, he couldn't recall exactly what the 340 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: date had been, but he said it must have been 341 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: after February twenty eighth and before April nineteenth, because he 342 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: remembered that they'd discussed the ongoing siege at the Branch 343 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: Davidian Compound at Waco, Texas. It might refresh Strasmeyer's recollection 344 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: to know that the Wannamaker Gun and Knife show was 345 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: held on April third and fourth in nineteen ninety three, 346 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: which means McVeigh would have just come from Waco. He'd 347 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: been interviewed by a journalism student from Southern Methodist University 348 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: just outside a police checkpoint at the Branch Davidian Compound 349 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: on March thirtieth. And here again we have mismatched and 350 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: poorly remembered facts. Strasmeyer can't recall who he'd gone to 351 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: Tulsa with that weekend, and he told the FBI he 352 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: didn't remember giving McVay his busy card, But this is 353 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: one of those things I can tell you for sure 354 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: he did. Strasmeyer's Eloheim City business card was in mcvay's 355 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: possession when he was arrested. He'd called the number on 356 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: the card a few minutes before the bomb went off. 357 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: On the morning of April nineteenth at Elloheim City, a 358 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: woman answered the phone. She says the man was looking 359 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: for Andy, that he'd met him at a gun show 360 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: and wanted to come visit. The woman told him only 361 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: that Andy was out at the moment and he'd have 362 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: to call back. Whether Dennis Mayhun was present when Strasmeyer 363 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: met mcphay two years before the bombing is another one 364 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: of those things we'll never know. We do know that 365 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: Strasmeyer stayed at Dennis's house when he was in the 366 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: city buying guns, but there aren't any clear, credible claims 367 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: that Dennis was standing there with Strasmeyer when he handed 368 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: McVay that Eloheim City business card and told him he 369 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: could stop any time. It's very likely that Dennis was 370 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: somewhere at the gun show. We know he and his 371 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: brother were regulars at the Tulsa Gun Show as both 372 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: shoppers and vendors. But even in nineteen ninety three, the 373 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: Wannamaker Gun and Knife Show was billed as the world's 374 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: largest gun show right up in the Tulsa Sentinel that 375 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: year boasts over twenty seven hundred vendors spread out over 376 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: a seven acre show floor. David Paul Hammer, mcveig's friend 377 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: from death Row, claims in his book that McVeigh actually 378 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: went back to Dennis's house with Strasmeyer that night, and 379 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: that the three men talked about bombs, but that probably 380 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: didn't happen. But when Carol Howe was talking to Agent 381 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: Finley in January of nineteen ninety five, she didn't know 382 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: anything about Timothy mcveay or that he'd already met Andrea Strossmeyer. 383 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: They only knew that this heavily armed German was talking 384 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: about bombs. He was talking up blowing up federal buildings. 385 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,439 Speaker 1: Carol also reported during that meeting that Robert Miller, the 386 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: leader at the compound, had been giving increasingly violent sermons, 387 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: urging his congregants to begin preparing for war against the government. 388 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: And I read that report, but I have not read 389 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: for myself the ATF report from the meeting. When Carol 390 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: Howe told her handlers that she had accompanied Mahon and 391 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: Strasmeier on one of their visits to Oklahoma City, she 392 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: believed they were scouting targets for the bombings they were 393 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: always talking about. Investigative journalist James Ridgway wrote in two 394 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: thousand and one that Carol Howe's own handwritten notes about 395 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: the information she collected for the ATF included what looks 396 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: to be an ominous misspelling. She had written down Morrow 397 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: building spelled Morrow. Perhaps she'd heard Murrah m u r 398 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: r ah and misunders stood. Stephen Jones, the attorney appointed 399 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: to represent McVeigh, wrote in his book that Agent Finley's 400 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: monthly report for December, which is when Carol reportedly told 401 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: Finley that Mayhon Strassmeyer had discussed the Murrah Building, was 402 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: missing from the ATF archives. I do want to take 403 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: a moment here to reorient us, to sort of ground 404 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: us a little bit, because it's easy to go off 405 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 1: the deep end and end up a raving conspiracy theorist. 406 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: There's so many versions of the truth that you can 407 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: find enough proof to convince yourself of anything you want, 408 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: and it's easy to see connections that aren't quite there. 409 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: Because it's worthwhile to note here that the Murror Building 410 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: had been a target before, it's not actually surprising that 411 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: it would have been a topic of idle chatter on 412 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: the compound a decade earlier. Members of the Covenant the 413 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: Sword of the Arm of the Lord had planned to 414 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: detonate a bomb at the Murrah Building, but the plan 415 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: fell apart before they could carry it out, and the 416 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: group itself fell apart not long after when the compound 417 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: was rated. But there were former members of the Covenant, 418 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: the Sword and the Arm of the Lord living in 419 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: Ellawhein City, and there's a lot of cross pollination of 420 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: ideas and relationships. So as tempting as it is to 421 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: see the possibility of that name being mentioned as some 422 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: kind of proof that How had reported specific prior knowledge 423 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: of what was to come, it may be more smoke 424 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: than substance. It sounds like a perfect one to one connection, 425 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: But in reality, a lot of people were talking about 426 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: blowing up a lot of things, and it's not that 427 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: surprising that more than one of them thought of that 428 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: building in particular. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not 429 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: making any claims here about alternative versions of the truth. 430 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: But we only have these competing truths. In March of 431 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, just a month before the bombing, the 432 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: ATF deactivated Carol Howe as an informant. In later testimony, 433 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: Agent Finley would say that how had become mentally unstable 434 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: and had been associating with skinheads in her personal life 435 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: outside of her work for the government. Testimony from Finley supervisor, though, 436 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: indicates that how was seen as an effective, sincere, and 437 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: honest informant. A former ATF deputy director reviewed her file 438 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven and saw no evidence of deception, exaggeration, 439 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: or fabrication. Findley herself signed her name to a memo 440 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six saying that she'd known how for 441 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: two years and never found her to be overly paranoid, 442 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: and they couldn't have been all that concerned that Carol 443 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: was unreliable in nineteen ninety five because when Carol Howe 444 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: called Agent Finley the day after the bombing, a month 445 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: after they'd cut her loose, they called her into the 446 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: office and reactivated her. They wanted her to get Dennis 447 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: on the phone in the presence of agents from the 448 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: FBI and the ATF. She tried to reach him, but 449 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: he didn't pick up. Years after the bombing, Bob Rix, 450 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: the agent in charge of the FBI's Oklahoma City Field office, 451 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: was asked why Dennis Mahon was never questioned about his 452 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: threats to blow up a federal building in Oklahoma City. 453 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: His answer was only I don't know. That question was 454 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: posed to him by Andrew Gumble, whose book Oklahoma City, 455 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: What the Investigation Missed and Why It Still Matters focuses 456 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: primarily on the failures of various government agencies in the 457 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: aftermath and investigation of the bombing, and the book explores 458 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: the idea that there was an interagency turf war when 459 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: it came to Elohim City. The ATF was still suffering 460 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: the damage to their reputation after the way things went 461 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: down at Ruby Ridge in nineteen ninety and Waco in 462 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and more than a few of the 463 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: FBI agents Gumbel spoke to believed that the ATF had 464 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: been holding back when it came to sharing information with them, 465 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: particularly about Elaheim City. But even if you take Oklahoma 466 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: City out of this, even if you eliminate all the 467 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: complication of these theories about a wider conspiracy leading up 468 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: to the bombing, even if imagine for a moment that 469 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: bombing had never happened at all, the ATF still had 470 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: credible information that a prominent militant white supremacist leader was 471 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:58,719 Speaker 1: making and detonating explosive devices. They had physical evidence, They 472 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: had hours of tape from their informant about this man 473 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: illegally modifying guns and stockpiling weapons. They had reason to 474 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: believe he might be plotting a bombing of some kind, 475 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: and every reason to believe he knew how to do 476 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: it because they'd been investigating him for years, but they 477 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: never brought him in. Tommy Whitman, who is the Assistant 478 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: Special Agent in charge of the ATFS Dallas Field office 479 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: who oversaw this investigation, later told Gumbel quote, the thinking was, 480 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: we don't want to talk to Mahon because if we did, 481 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: he'd know we were super interested in him, and he 482 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: might change his activities. But of course he already knew 483 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: we were interested. The thinking was, also, we don't know 484 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: if the FBI or another agency may be looking at him, 485 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: so we won't If we make an inquiry, they'll want 486 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: to know what we know, and we don't want others 487 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: to know because they'll know we're interested and won't share 488 00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: information with us. End quote. So in the end, the 489 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: explanation that fits the facts best, based on later revelations 490 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: from the FBI and ATF, is that the ATF was 491 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: just gun shy about another confrontation with armed separatists. They 492 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: didn't want another Waco, they didn't want another Ruby Ridge, 493 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: and they didn't want to move on Elaheim City. And 494 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: more than anything else, they didn't want to share what 495 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: they had with the FBI. The ATF was negligent. I'm 496 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: confident in that I can say that with unshakable certainty. 497 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: This was negligent. It was incompetent, It was irresponsible, it 498 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: was unforgivable. They had credible information that Dennis Mahon had 499 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: grenades and automatic weapons. They knew of absolute certainty that 500 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: Andrea Strossmeier was in the country illegally and was illegally 501 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: purchasing guns by the crate full. Both of those men 502 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: could have been and should have been arrested. Could that 503 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: have been accomplished without a Waco style siege at Eloheem City. 504 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: That's hard to say. I think so, but I guess 505 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: they didn't. But would that have prevented the Oklahoma City bombing? 506 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 1: That's the more important question, and I think the answer 507 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: is no. Because for as many unanswered questions as there 508 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: still are as many maddening possibilities, there are of these 509 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: connections that no one can quite prove. I don't think 510 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: it would have. The information Carol Howe provided to the 511 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: government can be divided into two categories, things she said 512 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: before April nineteen ninety five and things she said after 513 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: April nineteen ninety five. Because the majority of what she 514 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: said prior to the bombing is credible and consistent and 515 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: should have led to action being taken. Everything that comes 516 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: after that is a little squishier. One of those later 517 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: statements was her testimony at the trial of Terry Nichols 518 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: mcvay's accomplice in nineteen ninety seven. She said under oath 519 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: that in the fall of nineteen ninety four, she was 520 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: with Dennis when he took a phone call. She says 521 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: she heard Dennis say tim tuttle, tuttle, tuttle, tuttle and laugh. Now, 522 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: in fairness to Carol, she may not have reported that 523 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: conversation to the ATF at the time, because why would 524 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: she think it was significant. Tim Tuttle was an alias 525 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: used at that time by Timothy McVeigh. But in fairness 526 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: to those who think Carol would lie under oath, she 527 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: did also testify that day that she'd been injured in 528 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four by three young black men, not her 529 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: own drunken lack of judgment in a public park, So 530 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: hard to say. As for Tim Tuttle, if you remember 531 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: a few episodes ago, I said, the only issue that 532 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: I ever found of Dennis Mayhon's White Beret newsletter from 533 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: the nineties was one that his twin brother Daniel had 534 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: provided to a neo Nazi group who is trying to 535 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: archive right wing extremist history. So in twenty twenty two 536 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: he hands over a single issue of the White Beret 537 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: and this neo Nazi group posts it on their website. 538 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: And I don't know how to make a website, but 539 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: this is pretty common on a word Press type site. 540 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: The page indicates the site author who posted that particular 541 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: piece of content. It's not his real name, obviously, he's 542 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: a neo Nazi trying to memorialize the history of a terrorist. 543 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: But the name the author used was Tim Turtle, which 544 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: is perhaps a typo, but perhaps just a cheeky little 545 00:35:54,400 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: nod to McVeigh and his possible connections to Dennis. Many 546 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: little anecdotes, bits of testimony and one off claims, unsourced 547 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: allegations and mysteries. To go through them all, and a 548 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: lot of them don't warrant a second hearing anyway, But 549 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: one I can't let go of is a conversation Dennis 550 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: Mayhon had in January of nineteen ninety six with a 551 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: man named J. D. Cash. Now, if you're familiar with 552 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: this particular conspiracy landscape, you might already have an opinion 553 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: about JD. Cash. He was a reporter at the McCurtain 554 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: County Gazette, a tiny paper in a small town in 555 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: southeast Oklahoma, who devoted the last twelve years of his 556 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: life to the story of the Oklahoma City bombing. Saw 557 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: Mark quick to dismiss him outright as a conspiracy theorist, 558 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you straight up, he did stray from 559 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: the straight and narrow path of facts and proof, There's 560 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: no doubt about that. But he also spent twelve years 561 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: investigating this story, and he was quite close to Mcbay'sttorneysan 562 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: Jones and the defense's private investigator, Richard Reyna. I wouldn't 563 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: take Cash's stories as a gospel truth necessarily, which is 564 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: why I wasn't so sure that this conversation ever happened 565 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: until I found a little external corroboration. Cash claims he 566 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: and Dennis spoke for five hours that day. Now, Cash 567 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: had a bit of an unconventional interviewing style, it seems, 568 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: because at some point during their conversation he offered up 569 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: his own opinion that Andrea Strasmeyer may have been working 570 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: for the German government. For what it's worth, I'm not 571 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: really even going to explore that. I'm not saying it 572 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: has any legs, but it's what JD. Cash said, and 573 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: Dennis's reaction to the idea was extreme. In a later deposition, 574 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: Cash said Denis became extremely agitated. He went pale and said, 575 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: sweet Jesus, I'm fucked. He got up and placed a 576 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: phone call to his friend Marked Thomas, an Area Nation's 577 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 1: member and clansman who spent a lot of time at 578 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: Ellaheim City. Dennis had just a few months earlier been 579 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: a speaker at a cross burning Thomas hosted on his 580 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: farm in Burke's County, Pennsylvania. Dennis was particularly eager to 581 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: reach Mark Thomas at that moment because he knew Michael 582 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: Brescia was staying with him. Russia had been Strasmeyer's roommate 583 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 1: at Allaheim City, and as Strasmeyer might be a snitch, 584 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: Russia needed to hear about it. The two men in 585 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania were not thrilled to be put on the phone 586 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: with a reporter, and they refused to agree to allow 587 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: Cash to visit them on the farm. After he got 588 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: off the phone with Mark Thomas, Dennis made a second 589 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: phone call, this time to someone in Germany. Dennis doesn't 590 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: speak German, but his twin brother Daniel apparently does. He 591 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: passed the phone to his brother, who translated Dennis's instructions 592 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,720 Speaker 1: for whoever was on the other end of the line 593 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: he wanted Strasmeyer found he wanted him interrogated, shoot him 594 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: in both knee caps if you have to, but get 595 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: him to confess, and then kill him. Just a few 596 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: weeks later, Dennis would deny that he ever said this. 597 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: For his part, Strasmeyer has laughed it off his fiction. 598 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: But Cash turned his notes over to mcvay's lawyers, and 599 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 1: those lawyers gave them to the FBI, and the FBI 600 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: notified the German federal authorities, who in turn briefed Strassmeyer 601 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: on this threat to his life in the presence of 602 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: his attorney. Whether it all went down the way J. D. 603 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: Cash described it or not, a lot of people took 604 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 1: it seriously, but again just to bring us back to 605 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: a space of reality, right, so we're not reaching escape 606 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: velocity on conspiracy theories, It's easy to see this as 607 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: evidence that Dennis Mahon, Mark Thomas, and Michael Brescia must 608 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: have known something about the Oklahoma City bombing? Right? Why 609 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: else would he panic at the news that there might 610 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: have been a snitch? But I would offer up this 611 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: alternative explanation for Dennis's reaction. He panicked because he knew 612 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 1: Mark Thomas and Michael Brescia had just robbed twenty two banks. J. D. 613 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: Cash didn't know it at the time, but Thomas and 614 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: Brescia were both members of the Aryan Republican Army, a 615 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: Nazi bank robbery gang responsible for twenty two bank robberies 616 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: over the prior two years. Richard Lee Guthrie had been 617 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: arrested just a few days before this conversation took place, 618 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: and Guthrie quickly gave up the group's ringleader, Donna Langon. 619 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: She wasn't known as Donna back then, though she wouldn't 620 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: transition until after her arrest. A story for another day. 621 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: My point is when Dennis called Mark Thomas and Michael 622 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: Brescia to ask them if they knew anything about Strasmeyer 623 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: being an informant. They didn't know yet. If Guthrie and 624 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: Langen had given up their names to the Feds, they 625 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't be indicted until the following year. Dennis Mayhon was 626 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: called before multiple grand juries in nineteen ninety seven, in 627 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight in ongoing proceedings related to the Oklahoma 628 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: City bombing, and every time he pled the Fifth invoking 629 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. In nineteen ninety seven, 630 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: Denis Tolal reporter, it is my greatest desire to answer 631 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: all their questions, even if it takes days. But I 632 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: have to have immunity. I have to protect myself. In 633 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, he tried again for immunity ahead of 634 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: another trip to sit in front of another grand jury. 635 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,720 Speaker 1: The judge denied his request, and when he was subpoena 636 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 1: to appear before that grand jury in March of nineteen 637 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: ninety eight, he told reporters it was pure harassment, whose 638 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: retaliation against him for his recent attempt to run for 639 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: mayor of Tulsa again. He'd lost in nineteen ninety two, 640 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: and he'd just lost again in February of nineteen ninety eight. 641 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: By nineteen ninety nine, though mcphay's appeal to the Supreme 642 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 1: Court was he was going to die. Terry Nichols had 643 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: been convicted in nineteen ninety seven. The investigation was more 644 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: or less over the official one. Anyway, Dennis was nearly 645 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: fifty and this one time rising star of right wing 646 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: extremism was fading from relevance. His brother got fired for 647 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: handing out white power pamphlets at work, a side story 648 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 1: we covered last week, and the brothers left Oklahoma in 649 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: two thousand and one. Dennis settled in Arizona, which is 650 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: where the next chapter of his life starts. On the 651 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: last weekend of January two thousand and four, two hundred 652 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: extremists from all over the country gathered in Phoenix, Arizona 653 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: for arian Fest, that white power woodstock that Tom Metzger 654 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: first held on a farm in Oklahoma in nineteen eighty eight. 655 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: Along with the musical performances from Nazi metal bands, there 656 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,320 Speaker 1: were speeches from Metzger himself, Health Aran Nation's leader Richard Butler, 657 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: and a Nazi named Billy Roper. He is the subject 658 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: of several listener requests for his own episode, and I'm 659 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 1: getting there. The Phoenix New Times describes Billy Roper's failed 660 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: attempt to whip the crowd into a frenzy, noting rather 661 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: derisively that he looks more like a history teacher than 662 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: the skinheads in the audience, which is probably because he 663 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: had been a high school history teacher until his move 664 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: to full time white power activism a few years earlier. 665 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: Tom Metzger delivered his remarks while wearing a T shirt 666 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: that read some people are still alive simply because it 667 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: is illegal to kill them. But I don't think he 668 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: put it on with any sense of self awareness. He 669 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: warns the crowd that they shouldn't be stockpiling guns, and 670 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: he seems instead to be advising them to make bombs, saying, quote, 671 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: how many guns can you shoot at once? Guys? Besides, 672 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: I could brew up bigger way weapons then guns in 673 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: my kitchen. Arian Nation's leader Richard Butler, just a few 674 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 1: months before his death at age eighty six, arrived at 675 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: arion Fest without his Bucksom young traveling companion. They were 676 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: boarding a flight to Phoenix a few months earlier, when 677 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: his companion, Wyndy Ivanov, was arrested for check forgery. The 678 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: neo Nazi community was shocked to discover that Ivanov had 679 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: been living a double life as an adult film actress 680 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 1: called Bianca Trump. She'd starred in films like Barely Legal 681 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: Latinas and Big White Tits, Big Black Dicks. She'd bonded 682 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: out by the time the party started, but it seems 683 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: the revelations about her career had gotten her disinvited. Dennis 684 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: Mayhunt didn't give a speech at Arianfest two thousand and four, 685 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: but the Phoenix New Times Reporter noted that he was 686 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,280 Speaker 1: quite the social butterfly all weekend, chatting up movement leaders 687 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,959 Speaker 1: and young skinh heads alike. He was overheard bragging about 688 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:08,760 Speaker 1: having known Timothy McVeigh, something he'd been denying for nine years, saying, quote, 689 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: I knew Timothy McVay quite well. In fact, I knew 690 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,680 Speaker 1: him back when he was named Timothy Tuttle, and he 691 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: and I were involved in quite a few And then 692 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 1: he paused very dramatically and said, let's just say he 693 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: and I did some serious business together. And after Oklahoma City, 694 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: the Feds came after me big time boy, but they 695 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 1: never proved a thing, and that was probably a lie, 696 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: he said. It. I'm telling you what he said. He 697 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,360 Speaker 1: said that he and McVeigh made moms together, but I 698 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: think he was lying. He was in his fifties by then, 699 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: his time had passed. I think he wanted to impress 700 00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: these twenty something kids, or at least impress upon them 701 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: the value of terrorism, because that same weekend over beers, 702 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: he told some young Nazi skinheads terrorism works. We did 703 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,720 Speaker 1: a lot of terrorism in Tulsa in the nineteen eighties. 704 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: We put heads in the road and people paid attention. 705 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 1: Two weeks later, Dennis Mahon wrote up his last will 706 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: and testament and sent it to his father by certified mail, 707 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: and then he got to work on the only bomb 708 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: the government ever proved. He built we Del guised as 709 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,280 Speaker 1: a production of Cool Zone Media and iHeartRadio. Its researched, 710 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: written and recorded by me Molly Conger. Our executive producers 711 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: are Sophie Lichttermant and Robert Evans. The show is edited 712 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The theme music was 713 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me at Weird 714 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: Little Podcast at gmail dot com. I will definitely read it, 715 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: but I probably will not answer it. It's nothing personal. 716 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: You can exchange conspiracy theories about the show with other 717 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: listeners on the Weird Little Guys Subreddy, just don't post 718 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:15,879 Speaker 1: anything that's going to make you one of my Weird 719 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: Little Guys.