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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time to hit

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Speaker 2: that vault. This episode originally aired August ninth, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and it's part three of our series on whistling.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go right in.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 2: three of our series on whistling. Now, if you haven't

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Speaker 2: heard the first two parts, you might want to go

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Speaker 2: check those out first. In the previous sections, we talked

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Speaker 2: about the physics of what happens in the mouth when

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Speaker 2: you whistle. We talked about whistling based languages or variants

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Speaker 2: of languages, and we talked about the fascinating practice of

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Speaker 2: Chinese transcendental whistling, as well as some various psychonogical beliefs

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Speaker 2: about the world changing power of whistling. But today, it

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Speaker 2: might be interesting to turn our eyes to ancient history

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Speaker 2: and say, did people whistle in the ancient world? And

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Speaker 2: if so, how would we know about it.

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Speaker 1: This is such a great question that I'd never really

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Speaker 1: thought about because I kind of took it for granted,

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Speaker 1: like this is a sound that the human body can make,

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Speaker 1: Therefore people would have made this sound. And I think

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Speaker 1: for the most part, this is a good way of

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Speaker 1: looking at it things. But then the other side of

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Speaker 1: the equation is, all right, well, let's look at the evidence.

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Speaker 1: What evidence do we have in the literature of the

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Speaker 1: ancient world that people whistled? And then if they did whistle, well,

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Speaker 1: what are the attitudes concerning whistling? Because one thing that

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Speaker 1: I think we've already been able to distress in this

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Speaker 1: series is that that whistling is fascinating as it is,

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Speaker 1: it is not a neutral thing. We end up having

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Speaker 1: these various culture and, as we'll discuss, superstitious weights attached

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Speaker 1: to the practice of whistling.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm just generally fascinated by the idea of

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Speaker 2: ancient music. I guess in part because for the most

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Speaker 2: part we don't know what it sounded like. And so

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Speaker 2: when you find, for example, people who have tried to

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Speaker 2: render into performances some of the oldest recorded like a

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Speaker 2: written notation of music that we have, such as the

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Speaker 2: famous Hurriyan songs or Hurriyan hymns that are from the

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Speaker 2: ancient city of Yugurt, which are these hymns to the

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Speaker 2: goddess Nicoll. They're written on quneiform tablets, and people have

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Speaker 2: tried to turn that music notation into performances that you

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Speaker 2: can hear today, and it's very haunting. The same is true.

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Speaker 2: I think there's an ancient Greek tombstone that has some

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Speaker 2: music notation on it that has been translated into modern music.

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Speaker 2: I think it's known as the Sekloss or Seculoss epitaph.

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Speaker 2: And when you hear those sounds, they really do feel

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Speaker 2: very alien. They're like they're from another world, and it

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Speaker 2: just opens the mind all these possibilities that the ancient

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Speaker 2: world was full of music that we will never know

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Speaker 2: because it wasn't recorded, of course it couldn't be, and

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Speaker 2: it also wasn't written down or notated in any way

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Speaker 2: that we can understand today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all this is definitely worth thinking about it

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Speaker 1: and again coming down to like why it is whistling

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Speaker 1: important enough to take note of? This is a question

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Speaker 1: that remains on one's mind as we look at these

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Speaker 1: different examples. But the main paper that I was looking

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Speaker 1: at that was really getting into this was a two

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Speaker 1: thousand paper by AV Van Stakelenberg titled Whistling in Antiquity,

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Speaker 1: and the author dives into the basic question of, well,

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Speaker 1: what evidence do we have that, particularly the ancient Greeks

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Speaker 1: and the ancient Romans whistled or didn't whistle? And again,

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Speaker 1: on one hand, it's hard to believe that they didn't,

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Speaker 1: and Stackkellenberg points out that we know the Romans, for instance,

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Speaker 1: had many songs for different occasions, and yet whistling would

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Speaker 1: also probably have been considered vulgar and not something that

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Speaker 1: a person of status would do compared to other sounds

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Speaker 1: that one might make. Proper Romans were not even supposed

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Speaker 1: to sing, for example, I did not know that, not

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Speaker 1: me neither. And yet sta Kelenberg writes, quote, whistling a

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Speaker 1: tune would therefore not have been compatible with the characters

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Speaker 1: of many, if not most, of the persona in ancient literature.

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Speaker 1: Apart from that, however, it is a remarkable fact that

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Speaker 1: we also never meet a slave, a fisherman, pimp, or

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Speaker 1: soldier whistling a tune, not even in comedy. So what

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Speaker 1: sta Kellenberg is pointing out here is that, okay, if

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Speaker 1: whistling is not the proper thing to do, it's not

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Speaker 1: the thing that your heroes and your proper Romans would

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Speaker 1: would have done. What about the improper characters in your

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Speaker 1: various writings. Surely somebody would come along and they would whistle,

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Speaker 1: and by whistling signify that they are an improper for

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Speaker 1: a character and therefore deserving a ridicule or the villain

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Speaker 1: of the piece, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean not when you look at what

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Speaker 2: kind of Roman literature survives to us, it's not all

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Speaker 2: lofty royal drama. You know. There are some really body

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Speaker 2: satirical Roman literature that still exists today. And so you

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Speaker 2: would expect the characters in this to engage in all

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Speaker 2: manner of vulgarity that the Romans knew about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I think of our own cinematic history here.

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Speaker 1: And also this gets in a literature as well. Spitting

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Speaker 1: spitting on the ground in front of you generally considered uncouth,

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Speaker 1: but in most circles, and yet you definitely see it

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Speaker 1: a lot in cinema because it's a great way to

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Speaker 1: establish that well, this character is a little rough around

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Speaker 1: the edges, and I think the cowboy movies where their spitting,

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Speaker 1: or Cormy McCarthy novels where there's a lot of spitting.

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Speaker 2: So what stick Kellenberg is saying is that even though

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Speaker 2: we have Roman literature that has lower class characters and

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Speaker 2: characters who are on nderstood as doing body and vulgar things,

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Speaker 2: we never in the existing corpus see them whistling, or almost.

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Speaker 1: Never seems to be the case, though Sti Keelenberg does

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Speaker 1: point out a few areas where we're not entirely sure,

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Speaker 1: and this is where we get into the imprecise nature

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Speaker 1: of language and translations. They point to a part in

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Speaker 1: Petronius's Satiricon from the first century CE that describes a

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Speaker 1: person who quote put his hand to his mouth and

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Speaker 1: whistled out some terrible stuff I couldn't identify. Afterwards, he

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Speaker 1: told us it was Greek air. Now it's apparently an

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Speaker 1: open question if the proper translation is whistling, and if

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Speaker 1: it is whistling, what are we really talking about? Is

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Speaker 1: it whistling like or is it finger whistling where you create,

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Speaker 1: you know, the loud sound by blowing through your fingers,

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Speaker 1: or is this just bad singing the idea that you

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Speaker 1: know some sounds are coming out of this person's mouth.

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Speaker 1: They call it Greek air. It's just bad sin.

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Speaker 2: Oh I see. So like, in order to be insulting,

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Speaker 2: you might describe someone singing as wheezing or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that sort of thing. They point out that even today,

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Speaker 1: a fictional character whistling often means that they're they're what

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Speaker 1: like they think of a whistling character in a film

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Speaker 1: you've seen. It often means they're care free, or they're happy,

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Speaker 1: or they're perhaps a bit of a dufiss. Sometimes the

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Speaker 1: whistling is like, what's going to happen to this poor

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Speaker 1: dope that's just a whistling and a little unprepared for

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Speaker 1: the circumstances ahead of them.

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Speaker 2: Does Buster scrugs whistle? I feel like I think he does.

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Speaker 1: I think he does, if memory serves you know. And

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Speaker 1: the Coen Brothers Buster scugs the first bit in that

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Speaker 1: anthology film. Yeah, he's this white suited cowboy who at

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Speaker 1: first we think, yeah, he's just too he's just too

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Speaker 1: much of a goodie two shoes. He's just going to

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Speaker 1: be eat up by the world that he's riding into.

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Speaker 1: And of course we find out that he's more than

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Speaker 1: a match for the violence of the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that is the joke that he's like

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Speaker 2: the whistling, singing cowboy, but he's also a cold blooded killer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that fab was short. I love that. But in

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Speaker 1: any rate, we do see some variations on this. For instance,

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Speaker 1: stakellerg points out that in Western literature we see whistling

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Speaker 1: associated with the Squire and the Canterbury Tales in the

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Speaker 1: fourteenth century. And this is a quote here singing he

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Speaker 1: was or fluting all the day. This is from the prologue.

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Speaker 1: And I guess the fluting here is what might be whistling.

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Speaker 2: Fluting without a flute. That's what I've always called whistling.

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Speaker 1: Stackellenberg points out that, okay, this character, though the Squire,

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Speaker 1: is also a lusty lut, and we don't really see

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Speaker 1: a precursor to this character type in Roman and Greek writing,

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Speaker 1: but here we have an early example of the lusty

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Speaker 1: lut who is also potentially whistling. Stackellenberg also raises the

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Speaker 1: question of perhaps humming was more calm and then whistling,

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Speaker 1: But the problem there is we also don't know much

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Speaker 1: about humming and antiquity either. They write quote, whatever the case,

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Speaker 1: whistling apparently formed no part of the parallinguistic stock used

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Speaker 1: by Greek and Roman authors. This stock was considerable, as

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Speaker 1: recent studies show, and a few studies are cited from

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and include such emotional indicators as jumping

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Speaker 1: for joy and nail biting. So saying here that, okay,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to have characters do things to indicate

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Speaker 1: what's going on in their heads or what kind of

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Speaker 1: emotions are supposed to be emoting on the stage or

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Speaker 1: on the page, whatever the case may be, you're going

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Speaker 1: to have things that are being used like jumping for joy,

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Speaker 1: like nail biting, and yet there's no whistling. Now, they

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Speaker 1: also get into this concept of whistling in the dark bit,

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Speaker 1: which of course is a well worn turn of phrase

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Speaker 1: for us, in which one whistles to stave off fear.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite examples of this, or at least

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Speaker 1: one that I think I encountered the earliest and therefore

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Speaker 1: always think about this is the Ichabod Crane and Headless

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Speaker 1: Horseman cartoon from Disney. This was in nineteen forty nine,

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Speaker 1: The Adventures of Ichabod and Mister Toad, though this would

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Speaker 1: have been This was also a segment that was often

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Speaker 1: aired on Disney TV Halloween specials, So there's definitely some

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Speaker 1: whistling in the dark in that one, and of course

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really work. Ultimately, the things in the dark

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Speaker 1: come out to chase Ichabod Crane around.

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Speaker 2: Now, Rob, maybe we will get more into this in

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Speaker 2: a subsequent part when we talk about some psychology. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure, but maybe. But anyway, I wonder what you

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Speaker 2: think of the function of whistling in this type of

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Speaker 2: scenario where you're afraid. Maybe you're wandering by yourself past

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Speaker 2: a graveyard or wandering by yourself in the dark, and

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Speaker 2: there's a breeze blowing through the trees and you're a

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Speaker 2: little bit apprehensive, so you start to whistle. Now, I

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Speaker 2: think the phrase like whistling past the graveyard or whistling

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Speaker 2: in the dark is supposed to denote like somebody showing bravada.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're saying they're like trying to show off

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Speaker 2: that they're not afraid, when in fact they are. But

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Speaker 2: what I noticed, and that comes up in the example

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Speaker 2: I just mentioned, is that people often do this when

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Speaker 2: they're alone, when there's nobody there to see them. Nobody

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Speaker 2: to show off too. So if whistling is to show

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Speaker 2: off that you're not afraid, it seems like the showing

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Speaker 2: off must either be to yourself somehow or to like

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Speaker 2: the scary creature that you imagine is watching you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have to be one or the other.

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Speaker 1: But I guess in some of these cases, especially when

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about graveyards, there's definitely an imagined other out there,

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Speaker 1: and it might not be an imagined other that you

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Speaker 1: give a lot of weight most of the time, but

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Speaker 1: at least right now it's on your mind. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to get into several different examples of whistling as

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Speaker 1: a potential means of summoning or accidentally summoning or drawing

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Speaker 1: the attention of things that should not be drawn in

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Speaker 1: to your vicinity. So on one level, yeah, it seems

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Speaker 1: a bit dangerous if you're going to actually fall in

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Speaker 1: line with some of these supernatural beliefs, like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to summon the devil if I'm afraid of the

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Speaker 1: devil coming out of the graveyard at me. But maybe

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Speaker 1: part of it is like proving not only am I

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Speaker 1: not afraid of the devil in the graveyard, I'll go

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Speaker 1: ahead and summon him. If he's here, he can come

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Speaker 1: on out, and we'll go ahead and do this. But

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Speaker 1: I'm done with just being afraid of the devil somewhere

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Speaker 1: hiding in the graveyard.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But I guess the question is whether it's actually

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Speaker 2: whistling or whether it's just singing or humming some version

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Speaker 2: of this idea singing when you are afraid, or singing

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Speaker 2: through the graveyard. Does this come up in ancient history

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Speaker 2: as well? Do we have any evidence of this from

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Speaker 2: thousands of years ago?

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Speaker 1: It seems like we might, s to Kellenberg brings up

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Speaker 1: another example again from Petronius, and this is again from

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Speaker 1: the satirra con and it also concerns a were wolf.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that there were ancient Roman stories about

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Speaker 2: were wolves?

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Speaker 1: There absolutely are, Yeah, And this one's a pretty good one.

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Speaker 1: This is I'm going to read part of it, at least.

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Speaker 1: This is from a nineteen eighteen Heseltine translation. Quote. I

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Speaker 1: seized my opportunity and persuaded a guest in our house

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Speaker 1: to come with me as far as the fifth Milestone.

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Speaker 1: He was a soldier and as brave as hell, so

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Speaker 1: we trotted off about cockrow, the moon shone like high noon.

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Speaker 1: We got among the tombstones. My man went aside to

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Speaker 1: look at the epitaphs. I sat down with my heart

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Speaker 1: full of song, and began to count the grades. Hmmm,

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Speaker 1: so Stekelenberg writes the following on this, how tempting to

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Speaker 1: interpret this scene as a clever application of psychological para

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Speaker 1: language which has a superstitious and frightened slave indulged in

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Speaker 1: an ancient equivalent of our whistling in the dark. Since

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Speaker 1: the kenar represents many forms of musical expressions, we would

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Speaker 1: even be justified in translating it here with whistling. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: there is no straightforward indication that Petronius had this in mind.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, despite the fact that our expression is often

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Speaker 2: like whistling past the graveyard or whistling in the graveyard,

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Speaker 2: this is a word cantare, which, in whatever its Latin

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Speaker 2: form is, could have meant whistling, but could also just

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Speaker 2: mean singing.

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Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, So again we get into the imprecise nature

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Speaker 1: of language, which continues to be a theme with trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out whistling or not whistling or making other

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Speaker 1: sounds and various old texts.

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Speaker 2: You know this is kind of a tangent, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like, since we're on the werewolf story, it would

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Speaker 2: be kind of a shame not to tell the werewolf story.

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Speaker 2: What happens in this story by Petronius here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I can read the next little bit, which I

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Speaker 1: think brings it to a nice closure. Then when I

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Speaker 1: looked round at my friend, he stripped himself and put

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Speaker 1: all his clothes by the roadside. My heart was in

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Speaker 1: my mouth, but I stood like a dead man. He

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Speaker 1: made a ring of water around his clothes and suddenly

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Speaker 1: turned into a wolf. Please do not think I am joking.

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Speaker 1: I would not lie about this for any fortune in

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Speaker 1: the world. But as I was saying, after he had

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Speaker 1: turned into a wolf, he began to howl and ran

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Speaker 1: off into the woods. At first I hardly knew where

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Speaker 1: I was. Then I went up to take his clothes,

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Speaker 1: and they had all turned to stone. No one could

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Speaker 1: be nearer dead with terror than I was. But I

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Speaker 1: drew my sword and went slaying shadows all the way

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Speaker 1: till I came to my love's house. I went in

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Speaker 1: like a corpse, nearly gave up the ghost. The sweat

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Speaker 1: ran down my legs. My eyes were dull, I could

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Speaker 1: hardly be revived. My dear Melissa was surprised at my stake,

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Speaker 1: at my being out so late, and said, if you

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Speaker 1: had come earlier, you might at least have helped us.

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Speaker 1: A wolf got into the house and worried all our

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Speaker 1: sheep and let their blood like a butcher. But he

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Speaker 1: did not make fools of us, even though he got off,

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Speaker 1: for our slave made a hole in his neck with

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Speaker 1: a spear. When I heard this, I could not keep

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Speaker 1: my eyes shut any longer. But at break of day,

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Speaker 1: I rushed back to my master Gaius's house like a

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Speaker 1: defrauded publican. And when I came to the place where

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Speaker 1: the clothes were turned into stone, I found nothing but

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Speaker 1: a pool of blood. When I reached home, my soldier

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Speaker 1: was lying in bed like an ox, with a doctor

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Speaker 1: looking after his neck. I realized that he was a werewolf,

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Speaker 1: and I never could sit down to a meal with

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Speaker 1: him afterwards, not if you had killed me first. Other

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Speaker 1: people may think what they like about this, but may

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Speaker 1: all your guardian angels punish me if I am lying. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty fun, pretty staple werewolf sort of story there.

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Speaker 2: It's a great werewolf story. But my biggest question is

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Speaker 2: do oxes normally lie in human beds? What does he

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Speaker 2: mean I was lying in my bed like an ox?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, no, not him. My soldier was lying in

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Speaker 2: bed like an ox.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm. I don't know. I'm not sure about that.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're missing some kind of historical context there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean maybe it's like he's light, his body

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Speaker 1: is like that of an ox. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: don't nothing comes to mind when I try and picture

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Speaker 1: an ox laying down.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's really funny. How Okay, So this is

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Speaker 2: the satiricon by Petronius is first century CE, so it's

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Speaker 2: like two thousand years later, and werewolf movies are still

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Speaker 2: using the exact same trope where somebody figures out it's

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Speaker 2: a werewolf because they see the monster get wounded on

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Speaker 2: a certain part of the body, and then later they

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Speaker 2: see a human wounded on the same part of the body.

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Speaker 2: That's in like half the werewolf movies they make.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right. And

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Speaker 1: I think if I've seen this in other animal transformation

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Speaker 1: myths and stories before, like perhaps some wear tigers stories

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Speaker 1: from China and so forth.

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Speaker 2: I agree it still works all right.

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Speaker 1: So for the next bit that sta Kellenberg gets into

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Speaker 1: is that they break down a couple of things we've

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Speaker 1: kind of we've at least touched on, if not already discussed,

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Speaker 1: and when they break these out further later on. But

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Speaker 1: we have a semaphoric whistling or whistling as a form

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Speaker 1: of signaling, and this has been around for a very

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Speaker 1: long time. This is something that goes back to archaic humans.

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Speaker 1: Citing Peter f Otswald, they share quote, whistles are here

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Speaker 1: to hear than words because they concentrate sound energy into

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Speaker 1: a narrow segment of the frequency spectrum instead of spreading it. Generally,

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Speaker 1: they occur in the frequency range of one thousand to

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Speaker 1: four thousand cycles per second, to which the human ear

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Speaker 1: is most sensitive.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so this is the same fact that was

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Speaker 2: cited in slightly different terms in that linguistics paper that

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Speaker 2: we looked at in the previous section by Meyer that

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Speaker 2: was about how whistling tends to be a good medium

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Speaker 2: for transmitting information because it's in that frequency range of

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Speaker 2: one to four killihertz, which is a good place to

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Speaker 2: concentrate energy if you wanted to travel the forest and

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Speaker 2: be audible and carry distinct information the longest distance, because

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Speaker 2: that's like, that's that's sort of the bull's eye for

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Speaker 2: what our ears can detect and separate out from ambient noise.

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Speaker 1: Now, the next part here is where things get very biblical,

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Speaker 1: because Stekellenberg points out that the oldest reference to semaphoric

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Speaker 1: use of whistling can be found in the Book of

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Speaker 1: Isaiah five twenty six, where the lower whistles to summon people.

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Speaker 1: He will raise a signal for a nation afar off

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Speaker 1: and whistle for it from the ends of the earth,

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Speaker 1: and lo, swiftly, speedily it comes.

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Speaker 2: So I started off looking into this just by checking

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Speaker 2: it in my Oxford NRSV to see if the translation

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Speaker 2: was different in any significant way, and it's not. That

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Speaker 2: translation is almost exactly the same as what stck Kellenberg

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Speaker 2: has here, But in reading it this passage, I thought

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Speaker 2: I should explain more about the context because it makes

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Speaker 2: that quote especially interesting and even scary. This is one

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Speaker 2: of the most i think one of the most powerful

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Speaker 2: and chilling passages in the Hebrew Bible. So what's going

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Speaker 2: on here? Well, this is actually a prophecy of doom

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Speaker 2: in this part of the Book of Isaiah. The author

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Speaker 2: is pronouncing a verdict of divine judgment and punishment against

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Speaker 2: the people of Israel and Judah, because he says they

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Speaker 2: have ignored God's instructions and chosen to live in wickedness.

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Speaker 2: So there's a section before this where he's just talking

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Speaker 2: about the evil they do, and you might recognize some

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Speaker 2: lines from this because they're pretty famous. The prophet says,

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Speaker 2: ah you who call evil good and good evil, who

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Speaker 2: put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put

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Speaker 2: bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter, You who are

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Speaker 2: wise in your own eyes and shrewd in your own sight,

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Speaker 2: Ah you, who are heroes in drinking wine and valiant

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Speaker 2: at mixing drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe

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Speaker 2: and deprive the innocent of their rights.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, God coming up strong against mixed drinks.

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Speaker 2: Here, Yeah, against mixed drinks and against bribing, so that

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Speaker 2: the guilty win in court. But then it starts getting

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Speaker 2: with the really scary expressive metaphors. From here it goes

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Speaker 2: into Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble,

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Speaker 2: and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so

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Speaker 2: their root will become rotten. And their blossom go up

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Speaker 2: like the dust. For they have rejected the instruction of

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Speaker 2: the Lord of Hosts, and have buys the word of

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Speaker 2: the Holy One of Israel. Therefore the anger of the

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Speaker 2: Lord was kindled against his people, and he stretched out

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Speaker 2: his hand against them and struck them. The mountains quaked,

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Speaker 2: and their corpses were like refuse in the streets. For

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Speaker 2: all this his anger has not turned away, and his

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Speaker 2: hand is stretched out still. Then comes the line about

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Speaker 2: God whistling. From that it goes straight into he will

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Speaker 2: raise a signal for a nation far away, and whistle

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Speaker 2: for a people at the ends of the earth. Here

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Speaker 2: they come swiftly, speedily, and in this line the people

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Speaker 2: being referenced there, who are they? These are the armies

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Speaker 2: of the Assyrian Empire, described in the following passages and

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Speaker 2: terrifying detail. The prophet says, they march without rest. Their

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Speaker 2: arrows are sharp, their horses hoofs are like flint, their

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Speaker 2: wheels like a whirlwind. They roar like lions. They roar

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Speaker 2: like the sea. And it in saying the light grows

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Speaker 2: dark with clouds. And so the prophet is saying here

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Speaker 2: that the Lord will whistle to summon an invading army

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Speaker 2: to slaughter his people because they have done evil and

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Speaker 2: turned away from him.

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Speaker 1: Wow. So first he just wrecks and destabilizes everything in

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Speaker 1: this sinful nation, and then he calls to an invading

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Speaker 1: army to come on over and finish him off.

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Speaker 2: Yes. And so the whistle here, I think that takes

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Speaker 2: on a totally different context that makes it a whistle

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Speaker 2: of absolute terror from on high. It is something that

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Speaker 2: should chill you to the bone.

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Speaker 1: But then it gets even stranger because to Kellenberg points

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Speaker 1: out that the Hebrew word for whistle here leaves some

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Speaker 1: room for interpretation. And apparently there's still some discussion about this,

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Speaker 1: with some arguing that what we're talking about here is

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Speaker 1: indeed a whistle, but others say that it is a hiss,

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Speaker 1: the hiss of God. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So you shared that fact with me earlier, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know what to do. That is one of the

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Speaker 2: scariest images I have ever heard of, the hiss of God.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the whistle is already scarier with the additional

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Speaker 1: context that you provided here, but the idea of God

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Speaker 1: God hissing, and especially in such a wrathful mode of behavior, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of chilling.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But so if there's some ambiguity in the translation here,

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Speaker 2: I guess that would mean that whatever word is used

430
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: has something to do clearly with an expressive expelling of breath.

431
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing we're getting into breath language

432
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: here and breath related sounds, and apparently in various ancient

433
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: texts there's a fair amount of leeway and how we

434
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: might think of a hiss or a whistle as it

435
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: relates to not only human sounds, but also non human

436
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: sounds like leaves, arrows in the wind. Quote, hissing and whistling,

437
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: when produced by humans, results the same interaction between respiratory

438
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: and oral agents. The only difference is that in hissing,

439
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: the oral obstruction placed in the way of the airstream

440
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: is the teeth, while in the case of whistling, it

441
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: the lips. In antiquity, this difference was apparently felt as

442
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: too slight for differentiation between the two sounds and for

443
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: the establishment of separate terminology. The lack of differentiation continues

444
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: in some of the daughter languages.

445
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 2: Wow, that's interesting, because so we're trying to understand the

446
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 2: cultural significance of whistling, which, in our context very often

447
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 2: means something like, you know, it's just kind of like innocent,

448
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,959
Speaker 2: care free sound making, whereas a hiss, I think, is

449
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 2: almost universally acknowledged to be one of the most hostile

450
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: sounds a person could make.

451
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: Yes, my son would hiss for a while. I forget

452
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: where he picked this up, Like it's something animal world.

453
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: You know, kids have this central affinity with animals. But

454
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: I always approved of it because they're like, yes, if threatened,

455
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: like hissing sends a certain signal like that, we're past

456
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: language now. Now we're in the hissing hissing zone.

457
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: I am so mad at you. I've become an animal.

458
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: I am a snake, I am a cat.

459
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: It was probably a cat connection for sure. Now. Sta

460
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: Kelenberg points to various examples in Greek writings, including Homer,

461
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: in which we also encounter this hiss whisper confusion. Both

462
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: are nonverbal language substitutes, they point out, but there is

463
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: still a distinct difference, at least to our modern understanding

464
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: of all this. But yeah, it just becomes difficult to

465
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: try and sort all of this out, especially in these

466
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: ancient texts. Was this a whistle? Was this a hiss?

467
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: Is this other thing. Are we describing the wind as

468
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: hissing or as the wind whistling? How do we think

469
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: of these? And that connection between whistling and the wind

470
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: is important in other regards as well when we get

471
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: into superstition and magic. But Sta Kellnberg also gets into

472
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: some other areas that I hadn't even really thought about

473
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: in connection to whistling. For instance, the subject of cat

474
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: calls not to be confused with the wolf whistle. So

475
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: this is interesting because I think I would tend to

476
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: think when I hear cat calls, I tend to think

477
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: of what sta Kelenberg is actually describing as the wolf whistle.

478
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: So s to Kellenberg points out that we do have

479
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: clear Roman references to the cat call, to some kind

480
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: of whistling used offensively against actors, speakers, or performers in

481
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: order to drive them off the stage. You don't like

482
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: the performers on the stage, you don't like the speaker,

483
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: will everybody just just sort of whistles at them? They

484
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: just kind of use a bunch of these cat calls

485
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: in order to drive them away.

486
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: So whistling as just straightforward harassment or abuse.

487
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: Yes, Cicero even makes reference to the Cicero of course,

488
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: the famous orator who lived one o six through forty

489
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: three PCE. Basically, it's a letter from Cicero to Atticus,

490
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: and he's boasting about how popular he is and how

491
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: the last time he gave a particular of speech he

492
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: did not hear a single shepherd's whistle. So the idea

493
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: is that he's referring to a complete absence of cat

494
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: calls during his appearance because he was just so captivating.

495
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: And apparently the language is key here, because if Cicero

496
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: had been referring to hissing instead of whistling, he would

497
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: have used a different particular bit of terminology.

498
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: Okay, So while earlier Sta Kellenberg was arguing that we

499
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: don't have references to fictional characters in Roman literature whistling,

500
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: there are some references to whistling in the in the

501
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: broader sort of descriptive literature about society.

502
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so first of all, this cat call area,

503
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: which you know, my mind didn't go here immediately. And

504
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: also I don't know that I've encountered this much. Maybe

505
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: I just haven't been to performances in a while where

506
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: were that were where there was like a negative audience

507
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: experience that is. I don't think that's maybe where at

508
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: least like modern Western audiences are going to go immediately

509
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: if they want to express their negative feelings, like they're

510
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: probably gonna boo or something.

511
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I'd say booing is more common in American culture. Yeah,

512
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: I've never heard an audience whistle as a form of disapproval.

513
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: Well, apparently it was such a thing that it was

514
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: and still is, at least at the writing this was

515
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: again written in two thousand, in the British theater, the

516
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: whistling was just such a fear, like this would be

517
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: the force trying to drive you off the stage. That

518
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: whistling was just not done in a British theater dressing room,

519
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: and it's possibly linked to this. Now it's to Kellnberg

520
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: stresses that there seems to be a divide between whistling

521
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: with the British stage and the American stage again as

522
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: of two thousand. Anyway, when this was written, pointing out

523
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: that Okay, sometimes it seems okay and positive for American

524
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: audiences to whistle at the performers on stage, and this

525
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: does click for me. I know, I've been to performances

526
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: where there is a certain amount of whistling, clapping, wooing,

527
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of different sounds that are made

528
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: as a positive sound at the end of a performance,

529
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: eululations as well. You know, various different nonverbal sounds. But

530
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: this could include whistling, whereas in the British context you

531
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: still wouldn't whistle. You might have gotten a dirty look

532
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: from English theater goers if you were there whistling at

533
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: the end of a performance of Shakespeare and you were

534
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: trying to say, oh, this is great, I'm gonna whistle.

535
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: So you're saying that might have been interpreted by some

536
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: as like praising a performance by yelling get off the stage.

537
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Now, finally, stick Kellenberg gets to this topic

538
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: of wolf whistling, which again is what I thought what

539
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: a cat call was. But I guess I had my

540
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: terminology mixed up on that. The wolf whistle is a

541
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: whistle to indicate sexual interest, not unlike a cartoon wolf

542
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: in an old animated short.

543
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: Now, I was reading a little bit about people trying

544
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: to locate the origin of the wolf whistle, which is

545
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: a specific intonation. It's like a rising whistle followed by

546
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: a falling whistle. You can probably hear it in your

547
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: head right now. And for a while there was an

548
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: explanation going around that this was traceable back to specific

549
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: whistles used on naval ships, that there was like a

550
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: whistle with that intonation would be used to get sailor's attention.

551
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: But I've also seen some undermining of that explanation, so

552
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it's exactly known where the sexual

553
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: harassment form of the whistle comes from.

554
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when we go to look for evidence and antiquity,

555
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: this is another case Whereasta Kellenberg says, there's just we

556
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: just don't know. There's like one account of possible wolf

557
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: whistling in Platyus's Mercator. This would have been from the

558
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: very early fifth century, and it's unclear if it's a

559
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: hiss or a whistle. Once again, it might have been

560
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: a hit, so it might have been a hiss, could

561
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: have been a whistle, some other sound of the mouth.

562
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: Even Okay, but Rob, I think we should switch over

563
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: to talking about some of the superstitions about whistling, because

564
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: whistling apparently is widely believed in many cultures to have

565
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: some kind of power, often negative power, beyond just being

566
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: perceived as rude or a form of harassment or something

567
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: like that, that it actually could have dangerous magical power.

568
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, there are numerous examples of this to discuss,

569
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: and they have some similar trends. There's sort of the

570
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: idea of whistling as wind magic, and therefore there are

571
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: potential elemental ramifications for whistling, especially kind of reckless whistling.

572
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: I guess that's what a lot of these team to

573
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: get to the idea that when we whistle, we are

574
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: engaging in some sort of wind magic, and we probably

575
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: don't know what we're doing and the effects could just

576
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: be completely out of control. Other ideas are that whistling

577
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: is some sort of connection to the spirit world, and

578
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: whistling can summon or attract the attention of things that

579
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: we don't want the attention of, and so forth. Then

580
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: there are also some other sort of environmental specific examples

581
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: that get into the dangers of whistling.

582
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 2: You know, I don't have proof that this is the

583
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: causal connection here, but I wonder if a lot of

584
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: these beliefs about the supernatural power of whistling comes from

585
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: the linguistic tradition of associating spirits with breath, you know,

586
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: like in Greek, you would often use the same word

587
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: to indicate both that like a person's breath leaving their

588
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: body would be the numa, which is the same word

589
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: you use to indicate a certain kind of animating divine

590
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,719
Speaker 2: spirit or like the holy ghost the numa.

591
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I imagine there might be something to that. Now.

592
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: The first idea I want to touch on, though, it's

593
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: just the idea of and this is a pretty big one,

594
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 1: whistling at sea. And this is discussed in a paper

595
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: by Christina Hole that is titled Superstitions and Belief of

596
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: the Sea. This came out in a nineteen sixty seven

597
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: edition of the journal Folklore, and in it she writes

598
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: that at least in Western traditions, the whistle was just

599
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: a bad omen as it created a little wind quote,

600
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: and by imitative magic may produce a greater one. So

601
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: you've got to be careful whistling because that whistle could

602
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: turn into a fearsome gale that could blow the ship over, etc.

603
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 1: And that's if men did it, and if women did it,

604
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: it could be even worse. Because it's kind of like

605
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: the idea it seems read very sexist here, it's kind

606
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: of like, well, if men are at sea and they

607
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: are near a boat and they're whistling, they might accidentally

608
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: bring about a catastrophic wind that destroys everything. But if

609
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: a woman's doing well, she might be a wind summoning witch.

610
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: She might actually know what she's doing, and that's even

611
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: more dangerous.

612
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: Yes, So, either way, though, whistling at sea was bad

613
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: luck for any by the rare exception hole rites is

614
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: that you did have cases where you'd have sailors stuck

615
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: at sea in a dead calm. So they're out there

616
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: on the ship and there's no wind, the ship is

617
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: not moving. It's the opposite of the threat of the

618
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: catastrophic wind. It's the threat of no wind and a

619
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: slow death out on the waters. So in some of

620
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: these cases there are accounts of the of sailors daring

621
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: to make like small whistles, slight whistles, in the hopes

622
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: that they'll stir up just enough wind to get them

623
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: out of this predicament.

624
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: Oh, this is the scene from the horror movie where

625
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: a character is in such a jam that they have

626
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 2: no choice but to do the dangerous ritual that they

627
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: have been warned against by a wise old person. Yeah,

628
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: so I thought this was an interesting paper in general,

629
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: this one by Christina Hole, and she argues that the

630
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: sea is a place where old, otherwise long vanished tensions

631
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: between gods and religions tend to rise up again. And

632
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: part of the explanation here is that for many Pagans,

633
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 2: the sea not only had a god, but in a

634
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 2: sense kind of was a god. It was like a

635
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: living entity with thoughts and desires and whims, and the

636
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: sea brought both blessings and curses. It's, you know, it's

637
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: the bringer of riches, but it can also destroy, and

638
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 2: for this reason probably God's embodying the sea are often

639
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: depicted as temperamental, unpredictable, alternately generous and murderous. And one

640
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: interesting fact I'd never heard before, but Hole talks about

641
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 2: how in European seafaring traditions for hundreds of years, priests, nuns,

642
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: and clergy have been considered bad luck on the sea,

643
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 2: like you don't want to carry monks or nuns on board.

644
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: And she even tells a story of a sea voyage

645
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: taken by a friend of hers, which, when I think

646
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: it was crossing the Atlantic, had some Trappist monks on

647
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: board and the sailors were blaming the monks for the

648
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 2: fact that there was bad weather and the boat kept

649
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: rolling and everybody was nauseated and throwing up. So in

650
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: many cases, you're on a boat, and not only do

651
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: you not want to be carrying monks or nuns or whatever,

652
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: you don't even want to say a word like priest.

653
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 2: So why would that be You would think? Okay? And

654
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: these are Christian sailors, so they would at least probably

655
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: think that the clergy would be a good omen, not

656
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: a bad. But the author here speculates as follows quote,

657
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: these beliefs have nothing to do with anti clerical feeling,

658
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: and many who hold them are devout Christians. When on land,

659
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: they probably run back to that transition period when Paganism

660
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: was slowly giving way to Christianity, and many people, especially

661
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: those who like sailors, led a dangerous life, had a

662
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: foot in both camps, acknowledging christ on shore but taking

663
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: care not to offend the old gods when at sea. Moreover,

664
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: whatever was wholly and consecrated was once regarded as a

665
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: center of mystical power, which was as likely to be

666
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: dangerous as to be beneficent, and was therefore to be

667
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 2: guarded against and so, of course that's just an interpretation.

668
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: We don't know that's the reasoning here. It's always hard

669
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: to get at the ultimate reasoning for folk beliefs, but

670
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: that seems plausible to me, and I really like that.

671
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: It's the idea that there's a power in it, and

672
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 2: just the fact that there's a power in it is dangerous.

673
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: Even if the priest is supposedly the good guy based

674
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 2: on your current religious beliefs, just the fact that the

675
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: priesthood is a center of power makes it potentially dangerous

676
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: when you're in a dangerous situation like the sea. And

677
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: I think you could maybe say the same thing of

678
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: whistling itself, that whistling is perceived as having a power,

679
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: and therefore, even if the power isn't always evil, it's

680
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: just the fact that there is the power in it

681
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 2: that makes it scary.

682
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, all this on top of just sort of

683
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: the other idea of falling back into older beliefs when

684
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: things heat up when you're in a dangerous place, and

685
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: of course, again this is the ocean, It is inherently dangerous. Therefore, yeah,

686
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: you can imagine this this not only this idea of

687
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: like I'm going to slide back into old belief systems

688
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: because I feel like there's heightened danger. But I wonder

689
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: too if if you have more specific gods and traditions

690
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: that you can fall back on. Whereas you know, the

691
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: New Christianity it might not it might not have any

692
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: like specific things you can do to avoid a watery death.

693
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: But the old ways they might have had particular rights,

694
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: particular things you could do, things you were not supposed

695
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: to do, a path you might follow through the uncertain

696
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: which I think, you know, I think some of us

697
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: might be able to relate to that in a modern

698
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: sense too. Like it's you can have more of an

699
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: atheistic mindset when you're on the airplane and there's no turbulence,

700
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 1: But when the turbulence kicks in, well what can you do?

701
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: You might you might let a prayer slip out here

702
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: or there, just because you know, if there is nothing

703
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: practically you can do in that scenario beyond you know,

704
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: the safety parameters, then there are these other scripts you

705
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: can turn to, these other models of reality that at

706
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: least give you, like somewhere to devote your attention. And

707
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: just from the standpoint of the ocean, I mean, we

708
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: could easily come back and discuss these at greater length.

709
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: You get their other whole lists of various bad luck

710
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: omens that include things like, of course the albatross is

711
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: tied up in some of these, but also things like bananas,

712
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: and then various interesting touch based positive good luck like

713
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: everyone has to touch the same part of the ship,

714
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: that sort of thing collar touching. I think cats end

715
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: up playing a role in some of these. So yeah,

716
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: it's a whole interesting world of like the heightened danger

717
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: of the sea and some of the superstitious approaches to

718
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: survival on the sea.

719
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 2: Apparently seeing a drowned cat was one of the worst omens,

720
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: she says, that would sometimes make people just turn around

721
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: and go back. Oh wow, oh, but come back to whistling.

722
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: Another thing that Christina Hole says here is that whistling

723
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: is not just a locusts of superstition on the sea.

724
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: There seem to be all kinds of fears about the

725
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: power of whistling even on land.

726
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: Right, and that she gets into this idea again that

727
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: whistling may attract the attention of things that you don't

728
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: want to attract. And some of these relate to the sea,

729
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: some are more related to the land. She points that

730
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: in the East Anglian Fins, sportsmen out at night never

731
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 1: whistle to their dog because they might call up the

732
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: lantern man, which would have been a type of willow

733
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: the wisp creature that you did not want attracted to

734
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 1: your whereabouts.

735
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, fire fiend. And you know what, I wonder if

736
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: there is just a general similar line of thinking, or

737
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: if it could actually be based in that biblical passage

738
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 2: about you know again, one of the oldest references to

739
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: whistling as a signal to like attract a tension is

740
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 2: God whistling to attract the attention of a ravaging army

741
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: that will come and destroy you.

742
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, in terms of this is an interesting one.

743
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: This one is when I read and Carol Rose and

744
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: her Compendium of Monsters, she points to the murrhman known

745
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: as the denny Maara that was considered a threat in

746
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: some cases by the people of the Isle of Man,

747
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: the Manx people generally the man of the sea. That

748
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: Denniemara was generally more benevolent than other forms of the myth,

749
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: because you have you have some truly awful mirror creatures

750
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: out there in the world of folklore. But this one

751
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: in particular, though if you were to whistle, you could

752
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: stir him up and cause excess wind. So on one hand,

753
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of a supernatural creature whose attention you might

754
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: get through whistling. But also we get back into the

755
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: basic wind magic of the thing, like, be careful whistling.

756
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: You're toying with the wind magic. And you're at sea,

757
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 1: and that's where the wind is particularly dangerous and the

758
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 1: least little thing can stir it up. Hole mentions another

759
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: omen related to whistling, and that is the omen of

760
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: the seven Whistlers. And this from her description, it sounds

761
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: basically like a particular chorus of bird song that would

762
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: spell disaster for those who heard it, particularly say before

763
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: a battle. Now, coming back at least briefly to Stakelenberg,

764
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: sta Kellenberg points to Roman writer Colomela, who shares that

765
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: whistling could be used to encourage oxen to drink, which

766
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: sta Kellenberg links to the possible sound similarities between whistling

767
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: and flowing water. So again, instead of the wind, this

768
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: time we're talking about water, and we're talking about the

769
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: similarities of the sound. Here this idea seems to have

770
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: survived into English traditions concerning horses at least into the

771
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: sixteenth century.

772
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: Well wait, so if you're an ancient Roman, you can

773
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 2: whistle to make oxen drink, But will that make oxen

774
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: lie in your bed?

775
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: I'm not certain about that.

776
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: Now, somebody who has Roman history knowledge it, can you

777
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 2: explain the ox in the bed metaphor to us? I

778
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: want to know what that means.

779
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: It is interesting, though, to think about this idea of

780
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: like the whistle as a sound that is imitating not

781
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: birds or other organisms, but but imitating elemental forces the

782
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: wind or in this case, the water, and therefore allowing

783
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: just the average person to tap in to those the

784
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 1: streams of terrific and at times, you know, catastrophic energies.

785
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: Well, I would also say the same thing for hissing.

786
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: Hissing kind of takes away your humanity. You're you're you

787
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 2: don't sound like a person speaking or expressing an opinion.

788
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 2: You sound like a hostile animal or even a hostile landscape.

789
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: I guess sometimes there is hissing in theater, right, like a.

790
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: Negative Yeah, that's hiss at the villain. Yeah, yeah, you know,

791
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 2: you boo hiss when the ago comes on stage or whatever.

792
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, all right, we're we're looking at the clock

793
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: now and we realize that we're out of time for

794
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: this episode, but oh, we still have a lot more.

795
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: So we're going to go to a four parter on whistling,

796
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: but we got some great stuff to come back to.

797
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: We're going to dive back in a bit to some

798
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: Eastern traditions of magic and whistling. We're going to discuss

799
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: some more examples of whistling, superstition and folklore, and then oh,

800
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: we're going to get into the psychology of whistling a

801
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 1: bit as well.

802
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: Does the spirit dwell within you if it does come

803
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 2: back and expel that breath one more time?

804
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? Is it okay to whistle while you work? Should

805
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: we be listening to dwarves on this matter to begin with? Well,

806
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: it'll all be discussed in the next episode. In the meantime,

807
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of

808
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, our core episodes published on

809
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind

810
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: podcast feed. On Wednesdays we do a short form artifact

811
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: or monster effect. On Mondays we do listener mail, and

812
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns and just

813
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: focus on a weird film and weird house cinema.

814
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent you producer, Seth

815
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

816
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

817
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

818
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

819
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com.

820
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,880
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821
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,719
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822
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:41,800
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