WEBVTT - #438 Maggie Freleng with Catina Curley 0:00:04.960 --> 0:00:07.840 On the evening of March thirtieth, two thousand and five, 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:10.880 thirty two year old Katina Curley went to her house 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:14.280 in East New Orleans. She and her husband Rinaldo had 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.840 recently separated, and she was staying with her mother, but 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.320 she stopped in every night to help feed her four kids, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:22.880 make sure their homework was done, and get them ready 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.360 for bed. Rinaldo had some visitors in the house, which 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.639 irritated Katina, and she and Rinaldo got into a heated argument. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.920 This wasn't unusual. Their relationship had been volatile from the start. 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:39.519 To be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.960 We started with the arguments, and then from the arguments 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:44.520 it turned into a fight. 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.120 Rinaldo and Katina went up to the bedroom, where their 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:53.280 children could hear them arguing loudly. Moments later, Rinaldo rushed downstairs, 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.280 followed by Katina, and suddenly a gunshot rang out. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:00:59.279 And I used to always tell them we don't need 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:00.000 no gun in a home. 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:05.800 I never like gons, you know, gones are dangerous, and 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.759 he just was adamant to have it there. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.560 When police arrived, they found Rinaldo dead from a single gunshot. 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.039 Wound to the heart. Katina was arrested that night and 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:18.920 charged with second degree murder. 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.440 I'm Katina Curly and I was wrongfully convicted for eleven 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:24.600 and a half years. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.039 From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:47.200 Maggie Freeling today Katina Curly. Katina Curley was born in 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:49.160 nineteen seventy two. 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.720 I was born here in Louisiana, New Orleans. My mom 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:58.120 is Sheila and my dad is Ernest. But my grandparents 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.000 raised me since birth. How come because I guess at 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.760 the time they figured that my parents were too young 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:05.320 to raise me. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:07.920 How old were your parents when they had you? 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:09.040 Fifteen? 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:11.040 Oh wow, so they were kids. 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:13.000 Yeah, they was young. They were real young. 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.320 What was that like to grow up with your grandparents 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:16.200 as an only child? 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.680 It was fun. I had everything. I was one of 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.440 the small ones, you know. I had everything that I 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.720 wanted as a child and growing up, you know, I 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.800 had all the love and support that any child can 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.840 ever ex for. You know, we used to go to 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.160 Mardi Gras. She used to take me to a lot 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:37.880 of parades. I used to go to a lot of 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:39.960 parties with my cousins, sleepovers and. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:40.600 Things like that. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.239 My one favorite with me and my grandmother used to 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.520 always like to eat ice cream when it's cold. She says, 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:47.440 better to eat ice cream when it's cold. So I 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:49.520 used to sit on the sofa freezing or debt trying 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.880 to hang out with her, you know, just eating ice 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.560 cream on the sofa, looking at movies. 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.600 When Katina was sixteen, she had her first child, Devilent, 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.720 with a high school boyfriend. A couple of years later, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.919 her daughter, Britney was born, and then when Katina was nineteen, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.360 she met Rinaldo Curly he was seventeen. 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:15.280 I met him through a friend. 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.080 One of my good friends was dating Ronaldo uncle and 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:20.960 I was over there one day and he came there 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.480 with his uncle, and that's how I met him. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.119 What struck you about him? Why did you like him? 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.520 I liked him because he was always well groomed and 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.520 he used to dress nice, smell real good. 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.440 What did he dress like? I mean this was early, 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.960 that was ninety two, okay, so what I guess for 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:39.160 young girl listeners, like. 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.200 I was like a hip hop you know, like jeans, 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:45.520 T shirt, clean, tennis and you know, he knew how 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.120 to cut hair. So he was always well groomed and 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.080 at the time, you know he was to me, he 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:55.320 was nice, polite, you know, that's how they come off 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:59.360 all the time when you first meet him. 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.760 But not long into their relationship, Katina began to see 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.000 another side of Rinaldo. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:09.440 We started getting into it, like probably not even a 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:10.880 month in us dating. 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.160 What kinds of things would you fight about? 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.479 We would fight about? He was like when we first 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.440 got together, he was the type that came off is 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:22.640 you know, if you're for him, you for him. It 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.400 was like always a jealous type. If I want to 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.720 go home, he didn't want me to go home. To 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.400 be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. We 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.360 started with the arguments and then from the arguments it 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.840 turned into a fight, like a physical Yeah, it really 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:39.200 it got physical fast. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.880 And what did that look like? Did he physically hit 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:46.680 you or was it like throwing things? 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:51.360 Like, no, it is physically hit me, Like physically we 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:51.960 used to fight. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:54.760 What did you think when that happened? 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.720 At the time, I didn't I didn't know nothing about 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.000 domestic violence or you know, I didn't think, oh, this 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.880 was abuse. I'm thinking just fighting. It's my boyfriend, were fighting. 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.560 You know, I saw fights before as growing up as 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.240 a child. So I'm thinking, this is what it is 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:14.240 in a relationship. 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.120 That's kind of what you were seeing around you. It 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:19.279 just seemed kind of just normal. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.880 It's a norm. Man like the norm. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.840 In June of nineteen ninety five, Katina and Ronaldo got married. 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.440 Ronaldo had a son, also named Ronaldo, from a previous girlfriend, 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.719 and Katina had Devilon and Brittany. Over the next few years, 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.200 they added to their blended family with a son and 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.440 a daughter, Devin and April. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.000 Was he a good dad, Yeah, he was a good dad. 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.120 I'm I can't take that away from him. You know, 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.920 he was a good dad. He basic the boys used 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.640 to catch weapons. But but yeah, he was a good dad. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.599 But for Katina, the pattern of abuse continued over the years. 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:03.040 Their arguments would turn into fights and then into physical violence. 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.919 Katina later testified to being beaten by Ronaldo on numerous occasions, 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.479 sometimes in front of their children. She suffered bruises, a 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.720 broken nose, and once Ronaldo kicked her hard enough to 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.279 dislocate her shoulder. 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.119 You know, I love Ronaldo and I wanted to stick 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.719 it out, I really did, but some days I just 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.880 felt so disgusted and was depressing down, and I just 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.359 lost myself and it was breaking me down. And I 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.360 didn't even know that it was breaking me down because 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:36.560 I couldn't even find my way no more. 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.720 Katina reported the abuse to police multiple times over the years. 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.000 At one point, she says her grandmother tried to step 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:46.120 in and warn her. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.720 My grandmother, that was my best friend. She knew everything. 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:55.839 In the last incident before she passed. In all three, 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.880 that's when he broke my nose. And I went over 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.520 there and she looked at me, and I grabbed the 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.320 doorknob and she say tea, and I look back at her. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.080 She said, baby, you have to get out. She says, 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.760 somebody's gonna get hurt. And I didn't say anything. I 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:12.760 just walked out the door. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.600 How did your children react to they abuse? Did they 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:17.000 see it? 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:20.800 They used to hear it because we were you know, 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:22.720 they was in a home with us, and I used 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:24.200 to always like, you know, tell them to go in 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:25.200 a room or whatever. 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:26.440 But if we. 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.520 Thought like that night and they sleep, they used to 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.720 see my face the next morning, you know, we'll go out. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:32.880 Tell my kids. 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.200 Were you afraid for them? 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.360 As far as him abusing them? 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.920 No, not, No, I wasn't afraid for them. 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:44.960 What I was afraid for is. 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.240 Them seeing me get abused and they thinking it's okay. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:52.720 That's when it's time to exit. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:54.600 No matter what. 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.160 My father was a good father and my mother was 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.840 a good mother, but they just had their own issues. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.600 This is April Curly, Katina and Rinaldo's youngest daughter. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.200 My mom is very sweet. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:16.280 Everybody loves her, All my friends love her. When I 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.720 was younger, she used to take me and my siblings skating, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.680 especially on the weekends, so we all know how to skate. 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.400 What do you remember about your parents' relationship. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.040 My parents' relationship, it was good when it was good, 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:35.480 and when it was bad, it was bad. As far 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:39.000 as the fighting, the me waking up in the middle 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.240 of the night trying to protect my mom, it was 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:41.720 a lot. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.160 It's a lot of the fightings. 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.040 Like any love thing would wake me up, so if 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.400 the argument start, I know to get up, like I 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:49.559 know it's gonna go far. 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.800 The The only one wasn't really scared of coming along 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:53.720 was my baby. 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.120 That was April. She used to always come check on 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.040 me always. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.120 From a very young age. April and instinctively felt that 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:02.400 she had to protect her mother. 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.000 I know, maybe if I come in, maybe it will stop. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.040 Like my brothers and my sister probably still stay asleep 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.880 or stay in the room. But me, I was always 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:21.560 the little warrior. I was brave. I wasn't scared. I 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.560 just feel like if I was to help her, it 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.880 will stop. And nobody else was able to stop it 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.280 at that moment. But me, I go over there and 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.079 be like, stop hitting the I pull him off, I 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.240 tell him stop fussing. But usually if he see me, 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.720 it will stop. He had defuse the problem and he'll leave. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.800 Or I'd just tell her, come on, get your keys 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.000 and let's go, and I'll try to leave with her, 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:46.960 something like that. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.800 So you did exit, Yeah, I exit a lot of times. 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:55.920 To be honest with you, I exit. I exit a 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:56.760 lot of times. 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:01.280 But he always found me and find a way persuade 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.640 me to come back home. Is like, I love you, 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.679 we have a baby, we have a family. You know 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.040 we're gonna work it out, and it's not gonna happen. 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.199 It's the same thing over and over and over again. 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.120 And then he got to the point where saying, nobody 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.240 not gonna love you like me, and you have four 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.760 kids and who's gonna take you with these kids and all? 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.760 And that's something that I thought about a lot, like, 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.320 who are gonna take me with these four kids? You know, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.480 how how do I start all over? 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:28.200 Were you working? At that time? 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.760 He didn't want me to work. I had. I had 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:33.800 a good bit of jobs, but he used to always 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:34.440 make me quit. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.600 Eventually, Katina started a job at Walmart and she liked 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:40.040 it and she wanted to keep it. 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:41.240 This particular job. 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.280 I told him, I said, whatever happened is gonna happen 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.319 because I've been trying to get on here and I'm 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:47.280 gonna work this job. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.240 I want to work. I was tired of stay home. 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.800 I was tired of being bored being a you know, 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.040 a housewife, cleaning, cooking, you know the norm. And I 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:57.560 just want to get out and you know, make my 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.440 own money. I wanted my own money. I needed to 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.079 find me again. And you know, as the months went by, 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.520 I guess he just dealt with it. I was working 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.840 at Walmart for like almost three years before this incident happened. 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:17.000 In March of two thousand and five, when Katina was 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.600 thirty two years old, she left Rinaldo yet again. 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.360 You know the reason, why I left is so we 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.079 wouldn't get into another fight. 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:26.560 You know. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:28.880 I thought it was just gonna be a few days. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.960 But the few days turned it so a week. The 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:32.640 week turned it so look like another week. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.640 Katina was staying with her mother during this time, while 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.840 the children stayed at the house with Rinaldo. 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.160 I used to go home, make sure they ate, make sure, 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:45.000 you know, Brittany got April together, his voice, she took 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.760 her bed, got a hell homb stuff like that. I 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:49.680 used to make sure they were straight, and then I leave. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.840 So how long were you separated before the incident? 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:58.000 Just like, probably almost two weeks. I'm gonna say two 0:11:58.040 --> 0:11:59.200 weeks at the most. 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:00.680 And did you feel like this was going to be 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:01.880 maybe the final time? Like? 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:02.440 Was this. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:05.959 I wanted to be the final time. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.559 I wanted it to be the final time, but I 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.160 didn't want it to be a final time like this. 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.600 You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.679 listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.160 one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:43.640 for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On March thirtieth, two 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.880 thousand and five, police were called to the Curly residence 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.880 on Bass Street in the Littlewoods area of East New Orleans. 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.080 There they found the body of twenty nine year old 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.600 Raynaldo Curley. He had been shot through the heart and 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.280 was dead. A thirty eight caliber revolver was on the 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:02.200 table nearby. 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:08.439 Okay, there, there is a lot of different versions of 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:09.200 what happened. 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.760 This is Katina's post conviction attorney, Majeta Sneed. 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.800 I'm an attorney and law professor at Loyola Law School 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:23.839 in New Orleans. So the shorter version, which I think 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.439 everybody agrees on, is that Katina and you know, they 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.600 were separated at the time of this incident. So Katina 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.440 would come over and parenting things would happen, but she 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:36.600 would not sleep there. 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:43.720 So do you remember what started the argument that day? 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.080 What started the argument was they had someone in the 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.040 house that wasn't supposed to be there. That was my home, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.760 no matter what, there was me and my children's home. 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.120 You know, that was our that's my family. So why 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.240 are you here? You don't there's you know, there's to 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:02.160 meet as a form of disrespect. 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.960 A neighbor Didra Andrews later testified at trial that she 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.560 had come over to the house to help Rinaldo get 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.600 the children ready for bed. Rinaldo's cousin, Chico, was also 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:13.800 there at the time. 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.240 So I asked them to leave, and that's how the 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:17.199 argument started. 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:22.680 Ronaldo did not appreciate her coming in and asking them 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.800 to leave, and so she proceeds to the upstairs bedroom. 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:32.480 He follows her. There is a confrontation. Whether the confrontation 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:37.920 was physical, whether it was just verbal. There's allegations that 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.800 he choked her, there's allegations that he threw a coke. 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:43.440 Can at her. 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.680 Whatever happened in that bedroom, they were the only two 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:55.240 in the bedroom, and at some point he goes back downstairs. 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.560 She grabs his gun and goes. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:04.760 Downstairs in her mind to leave the residents, but knowing 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:09.080 from a historical standpoint that he may attempt to stop her, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:10.680 she armed herself. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:17.600 Where did the gun come from? 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:23.080 Well, actually that was his gun. That was his gun. 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.320 And I used to always ask him, you know, tell him, I. 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.040 Don't we don't need no gun in a home. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:33.840 I never liked guns, you know, guns are dangerous, and he. 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.360 Just was he just was adamant to have it there. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.800 Would he ever pull it out during arguments? 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.320 Yeah, it was pulled out on me. Before it was 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:44.720 pulled out on me before. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.240 I remember Mom come home to come check on us. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.560 I know, I just got done, taken a bath and 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.800 I did eat, so she was coming to check on 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.920 me and my sister make sure we did our homework, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:00.840 her usual you know routine. 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.880 April was eight years old. She and three of her 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:08.080 siblings were home at the time, Rinaldo and Brittany, who 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.200 were both twelve, and Devin, who was ten. 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.880 As soon as I hear the screaming of the fussing, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.480 I'm automatically, you know, going downstairs or wherever they are. 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.640 That's where I'm going because I know it's going to 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:21.680 escalate to something. 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.640 Father. So when I heard her, you. 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.760 Know, asked them to leave and me didn't leave, and 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.240 my dad got angry and it was like, you know, 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.640 this is his house too, and I already know it 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.880 was going to be something beyond it. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.480 Did you do you remember hearing the gun? 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.200 Yeah? Of course I was in the stairway, so yes, 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:47.040 I do. 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.160 Did you see your dad? Did you see this happen? 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:52.280 Yeah? 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.880 Actually I say everything. I remember him standing a while 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.600 before he fell down to the ground. I remember my 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:04.040 Mom's screaming his name, shaking, crying, and I remember a 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.200 lot of people just bum rushing into the house. 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:15.760 The police come, she's arrested, and they then begin their 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:21.080 investigation about whether or not this was a justifiable shooting 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:21.479 or not. 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.639 So in all of the versions, does everyone agree that 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:26.760 Katina was the shooter? 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:27.639 Oh? 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:32.080 Yes, she acknowledges she was the shooter. The police ultimately 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.919 determined that it was not justifiable, turn it over to 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.480 the DA who also agreed that it was not justifiable. 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.840 And so that's how we get to her actually being 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.520 charged with second degree murder and going through a trial. 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.560 Afterwards. Before you were arrested, do you remember having any 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.600 thoughts for you like what just happened? 0:17:58.840 --> 0:17:59.280 Ma'am? 0:17:59.560 --> 0:17:59.920 I was. 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.199 I don't have a clue. I was like, I was 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.119 just there, like I didn't have a brain or nothing 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.400 in my head because I. 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:15.680 Just couldn't believe it. What is going on that day 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:17.160 is a blur. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.480 You know, you go through there are moments where yes, 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.080 I know this, this, this and this, and at some 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.760 point there your body shuts down, your mind shuts down. 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.640 There are moments in that you know, in seconds where 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:37.080 you're not really sure other than fear. You could talk 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:41.360 about fear, but details. Why am I fearful? How did 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.760 I move? Which way did I turn? When did I 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.320 actually pulled the trigger? Did I actually pull the trigger? 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.320 Those details? It is common not to be able to 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.520 answer those questions with any precision. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.359 When I got to the police station, you know, they 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:58.879 gave me water. They was asking me, kept asking me, 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.480 was our okay? And then they finally told me, you know, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.200 I need to tell them what happened or whatever. And 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:09.680 I started talking and explaining, and to be honest with you, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.600 I don't even know if I was explaining it right now. 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:14.919 I was just that messed up. I don't even know 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.040 if I was even explaining myself right. 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.879 Did you have a lawyer with you? No? 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.080 I didn't. I didn't. 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:23.560 Did you know you could? 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:25.400 Yeah? 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.359 They told me I could. I heard him, and I 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.800 didn't hear. It's like you hear, you don't hear. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.680 On August fourth, two thousand and five, Katina was indicted 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.399 on a charge of second degree murder. Her plea at 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.399 the time was not guilty by reason of insanity. This 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.119 would require that Katina prove at the time of the 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.800 shooting she didn't know right from wrong. Two days before trial, 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.320 her defense attorney John Fuller, changed her plea to not 0:19:54.400 --> 0:20:00.680 guilty based on self defense and withdrew the insanity plea. 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.120 Had he kept that in, he could have then introduced 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.119 expert testimony on the issue of battered women. 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:12.159 So would battered women's syndrome have been a common defense 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.919 back then, almost twenty years ago? I guess is that 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.160 something that we talked about. 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.240 We talked about it, but it wasn't so much utilized 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:23.919 in domestic violence cases. 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:29.080 It was a movie, The Burning Bed. Farah Fawcet played a. 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.840 Battered woman, and I'm going to think it came out 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.080 in the seventies or eighties, but that was the first 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:42.800 time that we actually heard about a woman being justified 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.440 in fighting back to the point of death. 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.680 What battered women's syndrome. 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:56.600 Talks about is a response to stimuli when you have 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.280 suffered from trauma. So, for instance, you hear about post 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:06.440 traumatic stress syndrome with veterans, someone who suffers from that, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:12.240 there's usually a trigger that sets that emotion, and so 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:16.800 the same with bad at women. Something happens that sets 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:23.120 in motion what happens to you physiologically and psychologically. That 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.119 you react in a certain way, so it's not you 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.320 walking down the street and all of a sudden you say, 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.399 oh my goodness, I'm hearing these voices and I'm gonna just, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.880 you know, go off. There's the triggers, and in bad 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.760 at women syndrome, it's usually the trigger from the aggressor. 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:44.280 The uniqueness of this case was the issue of whether 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:49.080 or not, in the moment that the incident occurred, whether 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:50.800 the person felt threatened. 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:53.600 When you have a situation where. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:58.800 Someone is being physically abused in the moment and the 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:04.560