Speaker 1: On the evening of March thirtieth, two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: thirty two year old Katina Curley went to her house
Speaker 1: in East New Orleans. She and her husband Rinaldo had
Speaker 1: recently separated, and she was staying with her mother, but
Speaker 1: she stopped in every night to help feed her four kids,
Speaker 1: make sure their homework was done, and get them ready
Speaker 1: for bed. Rinaldo had some visitors in the house, which
Speaker 1: irritated Katina, and she and Rinaldo got into a heated argument.
Speaker 1: This wasn't unusual. Their relationship had been volatile from the start.
Speaker 2: To be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate.
Speaker 2: We started with the arguments, and then from the arguments
Speaker 2: it turned into a fight.
Speaker 1: Rinaldo and Katina went up to the bedroom, where their
Speaker 1: children could hear them arguing loudly. Moments later, Rinaldo rushed downstairs,
Speaker 1: followed by Katina, and suddenly a gunshot rang out.
Speaker 3: And I used to always tell them we don't need
Speaker 3: no gun in a home.
Speaker 2: I never like gons, you know, gones are dangerous, and
Speaker 2: he just was adamant to have it there.
Speaker 1: When police arrived, they found Rinaldo dead from a single gunshot.
Speaker 1: Wound to the heart. Katina was arrested that night and
Speaker 1: charged with second degree murder.
Speaker 2: I'm Katina Curly and I was wrongfully convicted for eleven
Speaker 2: and a half years.
Speaker 1: From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with
Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today Katina Curly. Katina Curley was born in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 2: I was born here in Louisiana, New Orleans. My mom
Speaker 2: is Sheila and my dad is Ernest. But my grandparents
Speaker 2: raised me since birth. How come because I guess at
Speaker 2: the time they figured that my parents were too young
Speaker 2: to raise me.
Speaker 1: How old were your parents when they had you?
Speaker 3: Fifteen?
Speaker 1: Oh wow, so they were kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they was young. They were real young.
Speaker 1: What was that like to grow up with your grandparents
Speaker 1: as an only child?
Speaker 2: It was fun. I had everything. I was one of
Speaker 2: the small ones, you know. I had everything that I
Speaker 2: wanted as a child and growing up, you know, I
Speaker 2: had all the love and support that any child can
Speaker 2: ever ex for. You know, we used to go to
Speaker 2: Mardi Gras. She used to take me to a lot
Speaker 2: of parades. I used to go to a lot of
Speaker 2: parties with my cousins, sleepovers and.
Speaker 3: Things like that.
Speaker 2: My one favorite with me and my grandmother used to
Speaker 2: always like to eat ice cream when it's cold. She says,
Speaker 2: better to eat ice cream when it's cold. So I
Speaker 2: used to sit on the sofa freezing or debt trying
Speaker 2: to hang out with her, you know, just eating ice
Speaker 2: cream on the sofa, looking at movies.
Speaker 1: When Katina was sixteen, she had her first child, Devilent,
Speaker 1: with a high school boyfriend. A couple of years later,
Speaker 1: her daughter, Britney was born, and then when Katina was nineteen,
Speaker 1: she met Rinaldo Curly he was seventeen.
Speaker 3: I met him through a friend.
Speaker 2: One of my good friends was dating Ronaldo uncle and
Speaker 2: I was over there one day and he came there
Speaker 2: with his uncle, and that's how I met him.
Speaker 1: What struck you about him? Why did you like him?
Speaker 2: I liked him because he was always well groomed and
Speaker 2: he used to dress nice, smell real good.
Speaker 1: What did he dress like? I mean this was early,
Speaker 1: that was ninety two, okay, so what I guess for
Speaker 1: young girl listeners, like.
Speaker 2: I was like a hip hop you know, like jeans,
Speaker 2: T shirt, clean, tennis and you know, he knew how
Speaker 2: to cut hair. So he was always well groomed and
Speaker 2: at the time, you know he was to me, he
Speaker 2: was nice, polite, you know, that's how they come off
Speaker 2: all the time when you first meet him.
Speaker 1: But not long into their relationship, Katina began to see
Speaker 1: another side of Rinaldo.
Speaker 2: We started getting into it, like probably not even a
Speaker 2: month in us dating.
Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you fight about?
Speaker 2: We would fight about? He was like when we first
Speaker 2: got together, he was the type that came off is
Speaker 2: you know, if you're for him, you for him. It
Speaker 2: was like always a jealous type. If I want to
Speaker 2: go home, he didn't want me to go home. To
Speaker 2: be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. We
Speaker 2: started with the arguments and then from the arguments it
Speaker 2: turned into a fight, like a physical Yeah, it really
Speaker 2: it got physical fast.
Speaker 1: And what did that look like? Did he physically hit
Speaker 1: you or was it like throwing things?
Speaker 2: Like, no, it is physically hit me, Like physically we
Speaker 2: used to fight.
Speaker 1: What did you think when that happened?
Speaker 2: At the time, I didn't I didn't know nothing about
Speaker 2: domestic violence or you know, I didn't think, oh, this
Speaker 2: was abuse. I'm thinking just fighting. It's my boyfriend, were fighting.
Speaker 2: You know, I saw fights before as growing up as
Speaker 2: a child. So I'm thinking, this is what it is
Speaker 2: in a relationship.
Speaker 1: That's kind of what you were seeing around you. It
Speaker 1: just seemed kind of just normal.
Speaker 3: It's a norm. Man like the norm.
Speaker 1: In June of nineteen ninety five, Katina and Ronaldo got married.
Speaker 1: Ronaldo had a son, also named Ronaldo, from a previous girlfriend,
Speaker 1: and Katina had Devilon and Brittany. Over the next few years,
Speaker 1: they added to their blended family with a son and
Speaker 1: a daughter, Devin and April.
Speaker 2: Was he a good dad, Yeah, he was a good dad.
Speaker 2: I'm I can't take that away from him. You know,
Speaker 2: he was a good dad. He basic the boys used
Speaker 2: to catch weapons. But but yeah, he was a good dad.
Speaker 1: But for Katina, the pattern of abuse continued over the years.
Speaker 1: Their arguments would turn into fights and then into physical violence.
Speaker 1: Katina later testified to being beaten by Ronaldo on numerous occasions,
Speaker 1: sometimes in front of their children. She suffered bruises, a
Speaker 1: broken nose, and once Ronaldo kicked her hard enough to
Speaker 1: dislocate her shoulder.
Speaker 2: You know, I love Ronaldo and I wanted to stick
Speaker 2: it out, I really did, but some days I just
Speaker 2: felt so disgusted and was depressing down, and I just
Speaker 2: lost myself and it was breaking me down. And I
Speaker 2: didn't even know that it was breaking me down because
Speaker 2: I couldn't even find my way no more.
Speaker 1: Katina reported the abuse to police multiple times over the years.
Speaker 1: At one point, she says her grandmother tried to step
Speaker 1: in and warn her.
Speaker 2: My grandmother, that was my best friend. She knew everything.
Speaker 2: In the last incident before she passed. In all three,
Speaker 2: that's when he broke my nose. And I went over
Speaker 2: there and she looked at me, and I grabbed the
Speaker 2: doorknob and she say tea, and I look back at her.
Speaker 2: She said, baby, you have to get out. She says,
Speaker 2: somebody's gonna get hurt. And I didn't say anything. I
Speaker 2: just walked out the door.
Speaker 1: How did your children react to they abuse? Did they
Speaker 1: see it?
Speaker 2: They used to hear it because we were you know,
Speaker 2: they was in a home with us, and I used
Speaker 2: to always like, you know, tell them to go in
Speaker 2: a room or whatever.
Speaker 3: But if we.
Speaker 2: Thought like that night and they sleep, they used to
Speaker 2: see my face the next morning, you know, we'll go out.
Speaker 3: Tell my kids.
Speaker 1: Were you afraid for them?
Speaker 3: As far as him abusing them?
Speaker 2: No, not, No, I wasn't afraid for them.
Speaker 3: What I was afraid for is.
Speaker 2: Them seeing me get abused and they thinking it's okay.
Speaker 2: That's when it's time to exit.
Speaker 3: No matter what.
Speaker 4: My father was a good father and my mother was
Speaker 4: a good mother, but they just had their own issues.
Speaker 1: This is April Curly, Katina and Rinaldo's youngest daughter.
Speaker 5: My mom is very sweet.
Speaker 4: Everybody loves her, All my friends love her. When I
Speaker 4: was younger, she used to take me and my siblings skating,
Speaker 4: especially on the weekends, so we all know how to skate.
Speaker 1: What do you remember about your parents' relationship.
Speaker 4: My parents' relationship, it was good when it was good,
Speaker 4: and when it was bad, it was bad. As far
Speaker 4: as the fighting, the me waking up in the middle
Speaker 4: of the night trying to protect my mom, it was
Speaker 4: a lot.
Speaker 5: It's a lot of the fightings.
Speaker 4: Like any love thing would wake me up, so if
Speaker 4: the argument start, I know to get up, like I
Speaker 4: know it's gonna go far.
Speaker 2: The The only one wasn't really scared of coming along
Speaker 2: was my baby.
Speaker 3: That was April. She used to always come check on
Speaker 3: me always.
Speaker 1: From a very young age. April and instinctively felt that
Speaker 1: she had to protect her mother.
Speaker 4: I know, maybe if I come in, maybe it will stop.
Speaker 4: Like my brothers and my sister probably still stay asleep
Speaker 4: or stay in the room. But me, I was always
Speaker 4: the little warrior. I was brave. I wasn't scared. I
Speaker 4: just feel like if I was to help her, it
Speaker 4: will stop. And nobody else was able to stop it
Speaker 4: at that moment. But me, I go over there and
Speaker 4: be like, stop hitting the I pull him off, I
Speaker 4: tell him stop fussing. But usually if he see me,
Speaker 4: it will stop. He had defuse the problem and he'll leave.
Speaker 4: Or I'd just tell her, come on, get your keys
Speaker 4: and let's go, and I'll try to leave with her,
Speaker 4: something like that.
Speaker 1: So you did exit, Yeah, I exit a lot of times.
Speaker 3: To be honest with you, I exit. I exit a
Speaker 3: lot of times.
Speaker 2: But he always found me and find a way persuade
Speaker 2: me to come back home. Is like, I love you,
Speaker 2: we have a baby, we have a family. You know
Speaker 2: we're gonna work it out, and it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 2: It's the same thing over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: And then he got to the point where saying, nobody
Speaker 2: not gonna love you like me, and you have four
Speaker 2: kids and who's gonna take you with these kids and all?
Speaker 2: And that's something that I thought about a lot, like,
Speaker 2: who are gonna take me with these four kids? You know,
Speaker 2: how how do I start all over?
Speaker 1: Were you working? At that time?
Speaker 3: He didn't want me to work. I had. I had
Speaker 3: a good bit of jobs, but he used to always
Speaker 3: make me quit.
Speaker 1: Eventually, Katina started a job at Walmart and she liked
Speaker 1: it and she wanted to keep it.
Speaker 5: This particular job.
Speaker 2: I told him, I said, whatever happened is gonna happen
Speaker 2: because I've been trying to get on here and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna work this job.
Speaker 3: I want to work. I was tired of stay home.
Speaker 2: I was tired of being bored being a you know,
Speaker 2: a housewife, cleaning, cooking, you know the norm. And I
Speaker 2: just want to get out and you know, make my
Speaker 2: own money. I wanted my own money. I needed to
Speaker 2: find me again. And you know, as the months went by,
Speaker 2: I guess he just dealt with it. I was working
Speaker 2: at Walmart for like almost three years before this incident happened.
Speaker 1: In March of two thousand and five, when Katina was
Speaker 1: thirty two years old, she left Rinaldo yet again.
Speaker 2: You know the reason, why I left is so we
Speaker 2: wouldn't get into another fight.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I thought it was just gonna be a few days.
Speaker 2: But the few days turned it so a week. The
Speaker 2: week turned it so look like another week.
Speaker 1: Katina was staying with her mother during this time, while
Speaker 1: the children stayed at the house with Rinaldo.
Speaker 2: I used to go home, make sure they ate, make sure,
Speaker 2: you know, Brittany got April together, his voice, she took
Speaker 2: her bed, got a hell homb stuff like that. I
Speaker 2: used to make sure they were straight, and then I leave.
Speaker 1: So how long were you separated before the incident?
Speaker 2: Just like, probably almost two weeks. I'm gonna say two
Speaker 2: weeks at the most.
Speaker 1: And did you feel like this was going to be
Speaker 1: maybe the final time? Like?
Speaker 5: Was this.
Speaker 3: I wanted to be the final time.
Speaker 2: I wanted it to be the final time, but I
Speaker 2: didn't want it to be a final time like this.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can
Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts
Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On March thirtieth, two
Speaker 1: thousand and five, police were called to the Curly residence
Speaker 1: on Bass Street in the Littlewoods area of East New Orleans.
Speaker 1: There they found the body of twenty nine year old
Speaker 1: Raynaldo Curley. He had been shot through the heart and
Speaker 1: was dead. A thirty eight caliber revolver was on the
Speaker 1: table nearby.
Speaker 6: Okay, there, there is a lot of different versions of
Speaker 6: what happened.
Speaker 1: This is Katina's post conviction attorney, Majeta Sneed.
Speaker 6: I'm an attorney and law professor at Loyola Law School
Speaker 6: in New Orleans. So the shorter version, which I think
Speaker 6: everybody agrees on, is that Katina and you know, they
Speaker 6: were separated at the time of this incident. So Katina
Speaker 6: would come over and parenting things would happen, but she
Speaker 6: would not sleep there.
Speaker 1: So do you remember what started the argument that day?
Speaker 2: What started the argument was they had someone in the
Speaker 2: house that wasn't supposed to be there. That was my home,
Speaker 2: no matter what, there was me and my children's home.
Speaker 2: You know, that was our that's my family. So why
Speaker 2: are you here? You don't there's you know, there's to
Speaker 2: meet as a form of disrespect.
Speaker 1: A neighbor Didra Andrews later testified at trial that she
Speaker 1: had come over to the house to help Rinaldo get
Speaker 1: the children ready for bed. Rinaldo's cousin, Chico, was also
Speaker 1: there at the time.
Speaker 3: So I asked them to leave, and that's how the
Speaker 3: argument started.
Speaker 6: Ronaldo did not appreciate her coming in and asking them
Speaker 6: to leave, and so she proceeds to the upstairs bedroom.
Speaker 6: He follows her. There is a confrontation. Whether the confrontation
Speaker 6: was physical, whether it was just verbal. There's allegations that
Speaker 6: he choked her, there's allegations that he threw a coke.
Speaker 7: Can at her.
Speaker 6: Whatever happened in that bedroom, they were the only two
Speaker 6: in the bedroom, and at some point he goes back downstairs.
Speaker 7: She grabs his gun and goes.
Speaker 6: Downstairs in her mind to leave the residents, but knowing
Speaker 6: from a historical standpoint that he may attempt to stop her,
Speaker 6: she armed herself.
Speaker 1: Where did the gun come from?
Speaker 2: Well, actually that was his gun. That was his gun.
Speaker 2: And I used to always ask him, you know, tell him, I.
Speaker 3: Don't we don't need no gun in a home.
Speaker 2: I never liked guns, you know, guns are dangerous, and he.
Speaker 3: Just was he just was adamant to have it there.
Speaker 1: Would he ever pull it out during arguments?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pulled out on me. Before it was
Speaker 2: pulled out on me before.
Speaker 5: I remember Mom come home to come check on us.
Speaker 4: I know, I just got done, taken a bath and
Speaker 4: I did eat, so she was coming to check on
Speaker 4: me and my sister make sure we did our homework,
Speaker 4: her usual you know routine.
Speaker 1: April was eight years old. She and three of her
Speaker 1: siblings were home at the time, Rinaldo and Brittany, who
Speaker 1: were both twelve, and Devin, who was ten.
Speaker 4: As soon as I hear the screaming of the fussing,
Speaker 4: I'm automatically, you know, going downstairs or wherever they are.
Speaker 4: That's where I'm going because I know it's going to
Speaker 4: escalate to something.
Speaker 5: Father. So when I heard her, you.
Speaker 4: Know, asked them to leave and me didn't leave, and
Speaker 4: my dad got angry and it was like, you know,
Speaker 4: this is his house too, and I already know it
Speaker 4: was going to be something beyond it.
Speaker 1: Did you do you remember hearing the gun?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Of course I was in the stairway, so yes,
Speaker 5: I do.
Speaker 1: Did you see your dad? Did you see this happen?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Actually I say everything. I remember him standing a while
Speaker 4: before he fell down to the ground. I remember my
Speaker 4: Mom's screaming his name, shaking, crying, and I remember a
Speaker 4: lot of people just bum rushing into the house.
Speaker 6: The police come, she's arrested, and they then begin their
Speaker 6: investigation about whether or not this was a justifiable shooting
Speaker 6: or not.
Speaker 1: So in all of the versions, does everyone agree that
Speaker 1: Katina was the shooter?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 6: Yes, she acknowledges she was the shooter. The police ultimately
Speaker 6: determined that it was not justifiable, turn it over to
Speaker 6: the DA who also agreed that it was not justifiable.
Speaker 6: And so that's how we get to her actually being
Speaker 6: charged with second degree murder and going through a trial.
Speaker 1: Afterwards. Before you were arrested, do you remember having any
Speaker 1: thoughts for you like what just happened?
Speaker 3: Ma'am?
Speaker 5: I was.
Speaker 2: I don't have a clue. I was like, I was
Speaker 2: just there, like I didn't have a brain or nothing
Speaker 2: in my head because I.
Speaker 3: Just couldn't believe it. What is going on that day
Speaker 3: is a blur.
Speaker 6: You know, you go through there are moments where yes,
Speaker 6: I know this, this, this and this, and at some
Speaker 6: point there your body shuts down, your mind shuts down.
Speaker 6: There are moments in that you know, in seconds where
Speaker 6: you're not really sure other than fear. You could talk
Speaker 6: about fear, but details. Why am I fearful? How did
Speaker 6: I move? Which way did I turn? When did I
Speaker 6: actually pulled the trigger? Did I actually pull the trigger?
Speaker 7: Those details? It is common not to be able to
Speaker 7: answer those questions with any precision.
Speaker 2: When I got to the police station, you know, they
Speaker 2: gave me water. They was asking me, kept asking me,
Speaker 2: was our okay? And then they finally told me, you know,
Speaker 2: I need to tell them what happened or whatever. And
Speaker 2: I started talking and explaining, and to be honest with you,
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I was explaining it right now.
Speaker 3: I was just that messed up. I don't even know
Speaker 3: if I was even explaining myself right.
Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer with you? No?
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't.
Speaker 1: Did you know you could?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: They told me I could. I heard him, and I
Speaker 2: didn't hear. It's like you hear, you don't hear.
Speaker 1: On August fourth, two thousand and five, Katina was indicted
Speaker 1: on a charge of second degree murder. Her plea at
Speaker 1: the time was not guilty by reason of insanity. This
Speaker 1: would require that Katina prove at the time of the
Speaker 1: shooting she didn't know right from wrong. Two days before trial,
Speaker 1: her defense attorney John Fuller, changed her plea to not
Speaker 1: guilty based on self defense and withdrew the insanity plea.
Speaker 6: Had he kept that in, he could have then introduced
Speaker 6: expert testimony on the issue of battered women.
Speaker 1: So would battered women's syndrome have been a common defense
Speaker 1: back then, almost twenty years ago? I guess is that
Speaker 1: something that we talked about.
Speaker 6: We talked about it, but it wasn't so much utilized
Speaker 6: in domestic violence cases.
Speaker 7: It was a movie, The Burning Bed. Farah Fawcet played a.
Speaker 6: Battered woman, and I'm going to think it came out
Speaker 6: in the seventies or eighties, but that was the first
Speaker 6: time that we actually heard about a woman being justified
Speaker 6: in fighting back to the point of death.
Speaker 7: What battered women's syndrome.
Speaker 6: Talks about is a response to stimuli when you have
Speaker 6: suffered from trauma. So, for instance, you hear about post
Speaker 6: traumatic stress syndrome with veterans, someone who suffers from that,
Speaker 6: there's usually a trigger that sets that emotion, and so
Speaker 6: the same with bad at women. Something happens that sets
Speaker 6: in motion what happens to you physiologically and psychologically. That
Speaker 6: you react in a certain way, so it's not you
Speaker 6: walking down the street and all of a sudden you say,
Speaker 6: oh my goodness, I'm hearing these voices and I'm gonna just,
Speaker 6: you know, go off. There's the triggers, and in bad
Speaker 6: at women syndrome, it's usually the trigger from the aggressor.
Speaker 6: The uniqueness of this case was the issue of whether
Speaker 6: or not, in the moment that the incident occurred, whether
Speaker 6: the person felt threatened.
Speaker 7: When you have a situation where.
Speaker 6: Someone is being physically abused in the moment and the
Speaker 6: victim reacts and kills the aggressor, a jury could look
Speaker 6: at that and say, yes, in the moment, she felt
Speaker 6: her life was in danger or she was in a
Speaker 6: fear of.
Speaker 7: Great bodily harm. However, when you have a situation where
Speaker 7: the jury doesn't see in the moment she was being
Speaker 7: choked or beaten on, then you need that expert testimony
Speaker 7: to expound on what the victim is experiencing from a
Speaker 7: psychological standpoint, from a physiological standpoint, and we did not
Speaker 7: have it in this case.
Speaker 1: Katina's trial began in February of two thousand and seven.
Speaker 6: The defense put on a lot of information and a
Speaker 6: lot of evidence regarding history of abuse in the relationship
Speaker 6: between Katina and all dub He put on a case
Speaker 6: of police reports, medical evidence, the testimony of her supervisor
Speaker 6: who talked about her coming.
Speaker 7: To work with bruises and a broken nose.
Speaker 6: Just a history of abuse that was documented and so
Speaker 6: the jury was well aware of that history.
Speaker 3: It was a sad day for both families, you know,
Speaker 3: from my side and also his side. It was just
Speaker 3: it was sad.
Speaker 2: And what hurted me the most is that the children
Speaker 2: had to get up there to testify. You know, what
Speaker 2: was that like? To see that there was heartbreaking, It
Speaker 2: really was. It was heartbreaking because at some moment they
Speaker 2: broke down. You know, their daddy is deceasing, their mom
Speaker 2: about to go to jail. They're looking at my mom's
Speaker 2: on trial. You know, they're not gonna have either one
Speaker 2: of their parents.
Speaker 3: So it was really heartbreaking. It was sad.
Speaker 1: April was just ten years old when she testified at
Speaker 1: her mother's trial.
Speaker 4: Like I said, I was brave, so at the time
Speaker 4: I was ready, but I am very like emotional. I
Speaker 4: try to be strong the best I could, but when
Speaker 4: I break down, I break down.
Speaker 1: Were a lot of the questions about like what you
Speaker 1: saw in the hole and their relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like did I witness abuse? When was
Speaker 4: a time did I witness abuse? How many times have
Speaker 4: I witnessed the abuse? Yeah, it was a lot of
Speaker 4: a lot of questions.
Speaker 1: Brittany and Devin also testified that they'd seen their father
Speaker 1: be physically violent with Katina on previous occasions, but Ronaldo's
Speaker 1: oldest son, Rinaldo, said something different.
Speaker 6: He refuted that there was abuse a history of abuse,
Speaker 6: so there was, you know, there was.
Speaker 5: I truly believed.
Speaker 6: The jury narrowed their focus to that moment, to what
Speaker 6: was happening in the seconds before Rinaldo was shot, and
Speaker 6: because there was no evidence in the seconds before he
Speaker 6: was shot that he was physically confronting her in any way,
Speaker 6: that was enough for them to say she wasn't justified
Speaker 6: in her action.
Speaker 1: On March third, two thousand and seven, Katina was convicted
Speaker 1: of second degree murder by a vote of eleven to one.
Speaker 1: She was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Speaker 2: I would never thought in a million years that I
Speaker 2: ever be in prison, and for murder. I've never been
Speaker 2: incarcerated in like reality had hit like I'm really in prison.
Speaker 2: I had a life sentence over my head. So I
Speaker 2: had nothing but time, you know, to think what could
Speaker 2: have happened different if I would have just left and stayed.
Speaker 3: You know this, you know what it could have been me.
Speaker 3: You know, it could have been meeted, been dead and
Speaker 3: away from my kids. You know, some people be content.
Speaker 3: I wasn't.
Speaker 2: I always say I'm getting out, you know, I'm going on.
Speaker 2: I know since day one when I stepped for it,
Speaker 2: it was said it was scary, it was depressing, But
Speaker 2: I never ever once accepted that life sentence.
Speaker 3: I never accepted it.
Speaker 1: What was trying to parent and be a mom and
Speaker 1: be there for your kids, like from behind bars hard.
Speaker 3: It was hard because you only get fifteen minutes on
Speaker 3: the phone, so you have to keep calling and then
Speaker 3: they'll come see me. I used to come in the
Speaker 3: morning and leave, you know, at a certain time. But
Speaker 3: you know, to me, that was our time to bind
Speaker 3: and talk, play games together and stuff like that, and
Speaker 3: it was it felt so good just to.
Speaker 2: Be with them in that moment. But when they left,
Speaker 2: it was so hard. It was so so hard.
Speaker 4: I think my mom tried her best. It just wasn't
Speaker 4: enough time, you know, but we always wrote each other.
Speaker 4: We always talked, and it didn't matter if it was
Speaker 4: the weekend, if she had to stay up late like,
Speaker 4: we always had our conversation.
Speaker 5: And if we didn't have a conversation, I had letter
Speaker 5: at the mail.
Speaker 4: So men and my mom are really, really, really close.
Speaker 4: It was hard because I did left with my grandmother,
Speaker 4: which is.
Speaker 5: My mom's mom.
Speaker 4: I mean I was loved, I was taking care of,
Speaker 4: but it just wasn't the same.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is bringing up all the emotions right now?
Speaker 4: It's just a trigger for me. It's flashbacks, it's limories.
Speaker 4: It's something you can never forget. I don't care how
Speaker 4: much therapy, how much talking, when you live so much trauma,
Speaker 4: it's nothing that could take that away, know about a happiness?
Speaker 5: What take away what I went through?
Speaker 2: You know, my oldest son told me one time when
Speaker 2: he came, you know, he put his head because he
Speaker 2: like my old man. He quiet and I said, something wrong,
Speaker 2: de what's going on with you? And he looked at
Speaker 2: me said we ain't have a good Christmas since you left.
Speaker 2: And you know how bad I felt, you know how
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that really kept me going. My children,
Speaker 2: my family, my friend, they really I had so much
Speaker 2: support and so much love and my children.
Speaker 3: I had to I know, I had to fight for
Speaker 3: my kids to get out.
Speaker 1: Tina's initial appeal to her conviction was denied. She then
Speaker 1: filed for post conviction relief, arguing ineffective assistance of counsel.
Speaker 1: They argued that her attorney had withdrawn the insanity defense
Speaker 1: without consulting her, and that he had failed to educate
Speaker 1: the jury on the effects of battered women syndrome.
Speaker 6: So what the Supreme Court ultimately determined was that an
Speaker 6: expert in the area of bat at.
Speaker 7: Women syndrome should have been called.
Speaker 6: Yes, there was an effective assistance, because the trial council
Speaker 6: admittedly says I never thought about having an expert. I
Speaker 6: wasn't well versed in the issues of bat at women's syndrome.
Speaker 6: I thought the facts of the case alone with the
Speaker 6: history of abuse for almost a decade, would be sufficient,
Speaker 6: and so I did not even consult an expert.
Speaker 1: On June seventh, twenty eighteen, the Louisiana Supreme Court determined
Speaker 1: that the jury at the original trial should have had
Speaker 1: the benefit of expert testimony, and on the basis of
Speaker 1: ineffective counsel, the conviction was reversed and Katina was granted
Speaker 1: a new trial. Two days later, she was released on bond.
Speaker 3: When I found out the day that I was going home,
Speaker 3: it was in twenty eighteen. It was in June. I'll
Speaker 3: never forget.
Speaker 1: Katina was told to get dressed and go to the
Speaker 1: prison office, but she had no idea why. When she
Speaker 1: got there, she was surprised to see her attorney, Paul Barker,
Speaker 1: Like what he doing here?
Speaker 2: And he looked and he just held the envelope. I
Speaker 2: envelope up and he was like, you're going home. And
Speaker 2: I hollered from the Lord Hill mercy. Oh that was
Speaker 2: a good feeling. I jumped in a man homs like
Speaker 2: I was a baby. It was really a good feeling.
Speaker 4: When she came home, we just did everything that we
Speaker 4: used to do. We was skating, you know, we were
Speaker 4: pulling as a family. And that was just like me
Speaker 4: and her. It was like me her and my brother
Speaker 4: said sisters like we stuck together.
Speaker 2: And then coming home to that they was trying to
Speaker 2: figure out, you know, who was going to take the case,
Speaker 2: you know how who was gonna try it or whatever.
Speaker 3: And that's when I met miss.
Speaker 1: Me Katina's retrial began on February twenty sixth, twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: in Orleans Parish Criminal Court before Judge Arthur Hunter Junior.
Speaker 1: This time there was no jury. Judge Hunter would be
Speaker 1: the one to decide her fate. So how did you
Speaker 1: feel at your second trial? Did you feel confident?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was very confident. I was.
Speaker 2: I was nervous, don't get me wrong, because I mean
Speaker 2: it's a trial, it's another trial.
Speaker 3: But I was confident. And you know, this second trial.
Speaker 1: But they could have rules to send you back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they could have rules to send me back. But
Speaker 2: I was more confident because we had more evidence. We
Speaker 2: had more pieces, like you know, the experts coming in.
Speaker 2: So that's what made me more confident, you know, for
Speaker 2: them to explain, you know, what I went through all
Speaker 2: those years.
Speaker 1: At the retrial, Katina's defense team presented testimony from Beth Meek's,
Speaker 1: a domestic violence expert, and forensic psychologist Catherine Laing.
Speaker 6: And so between the testing that was done by the
Speaker 6: psychologist and the expert in that woman's syndrome in general,
Speaker 6: we were able to show what Mss Curly was experiencing
Speaker 6: in that moment. There was justification for the fear for
Speaker 6: the reaction, and based on that testimony not just from
Speaker 6: the experts, but also from the late witnesses. When you
Speaker 6: talk about it justifiable defense, that's an affirmative defense. And
Speaker 6: once you put on an affirmative defense, the state has
Speaker 6: an obligation to come back and rebuff that, and the
Speaker 6: state was unable to do so.
Speaker 1: Judge Hunter agreed with the defense's argument. On March first,
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Katina was acquitted of the murder charge.
Speaker 2: That's another moment that I never forget. When they found
Speaker 2: me not yelty. I was so excited just knowing I
Speaker 2: can go home with my kids. Now I can breathe better.
Speaker 2: And it was just such a blessing just to be
Speaker 2: back with my family and my kids, just to talk
Speaker 2: on the phone. And my son called me so much,
Speaker 2: Oh my god. All in the mid Devin.
Speaker 3: He like a little in sensitive. He looked like to
Speaker 3: the baby. He called your mom. What Devin. I'm like,
Speaker 3: what's wrong? He's like, no, no, I just want to hear
Speaker 3: your voice. He said.
Speaker 2: It feels so good just to pick up the phone
Speaker 2: to call you. But is beautiful being out with my
Speaker 2: kids and my eye of grant.
Speaker 3: I have but eight of.
Speaker 2: Them, so they was kind of busy when I was
Speaker 2: locked up.
Speaker 4: My mother is a strong Black woman, and I think
Speaker 4: she deserves everything that she worked for, everything that she
Speaker 4: didn't get. I feel like she deserved it. I feel
Speaker 4: like it's helped her to live. I think it's time
Speaker 4: for her, you know, just to you know, sit back
Speaker 4: and just it. Enjoyed herself. It enjoyed her life, not
Speaker 4: to worry so much, just to be happy.
Speaker 1: But even though she's out of prison, Katina still thinks
Speaker 1: about the many women who are there because they were
Speaker 1: victims of domestic violence, just like her.
Speaker 2: They have a good bit of women in there for
Speaker 2: self defense. And I hear that they're using my case
Speaker 2: to get a lot of women out of prison, and
Speaker 2: they have something that got out of prison because of my.
Speaker 1: How does that feel?
Speaker 5: It feels good.
Speaker 2: It feels good to help other people, other women you
Speaker 2: know that's going through the same thing I'm going through it.
Speaker 2: As far as like domestic violence, I would like to
Speaker 2: go talk to like different schools and go to different
Speaker 2: functions to talk to like lawyers, doctors, police. You know
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't know about domestic violence. You
Speaker 2: know they hear about it, but they really don't. They
Speaker 2: probably be just like me at one point, just thinking
Speaker 2: we just fighting.
Speaker 3: But it's not okay. No matter how you look at it,
Speaker 3: or no matter how much you feel.
Speaker 2: Like things will change, when it becomes physical, it will
Speaker 2: turn out bad.
Speaker 1: If you are experiencing domestic violence, help is available. Call
Speaker 1: the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight hundred seventy
Speaker 1: ninety nine safe or text start to eight eight seven
Speaker 1: eight eight. Those numbers will be available in our episode description.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea,
Speaker 1: producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Souls.
Speaker 1: Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional
Speaker 1: production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in
Speaker 1: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay
Speaker 1: Ralph be sure to follow us on all social media
Speaker 1: platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You
Speaker 1: can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one