1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: On the evening of March thirtieth, two thousand and five, 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: thirty two year old Katina Curley went to her house 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: in East New Orleans. She and her husband Rinaldo had 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: recently separated, and she was staying with her mother, but 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: she stopped in every night to help feed her four kids, 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: make sure their homework was done, and get them ready 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: for bed. Rinaldo had some visitors in the house, which 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: irritated Katina, and she and Rinaldo got into a heated argument. 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: This wasn't unusual. Their relationship had been volatile from the start. 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: To be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: We started with the arguments, and then from the arguments 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 2: it turned into a fight. 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: Rinaldo and Katina went up to the bedroom, where their 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: children could hear them arguing loudly. Moments later, Rinaldo rushed downstairs, 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: followed by Katina, and suddenly a gunshot rang out. 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 3: And I used to always tell them we don't need 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 3: no gun in a home. 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: I never like gons, you know, gones are dangerous, and 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: he just was adamant to have it there. 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: When police arrived, they found Rinaldo dead from a single gunshot. 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: Wound to the heart. Katina was arrested that night and 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: charged with second degree murder. 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 2: I'm Katina Curly and I was wrongfully convicted for eleven 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: and a half years. 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: From Love of for Good. This is wrongful conviction with 26 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling today Katina Curly. Katina Curley was born in 27 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. 28 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: I was born here in Louisiana, New Orleans. My mom 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: is Sheila and my dad is Ernest. But my grandparents 30 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: raised me since birth. How come because I guess at 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: the time they figured that my parents were too young 32 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: to raise me. 33 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: How old were your parents when they had you? 34 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 3: Fifteen? 35 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: Oh wow, so they were kids. 36 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, they was young. They were real young. 37 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: What was that like to grow up with your grandparents 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: as an only child? 39 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: It was fun. I had everything. I was one of 40 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: the small ones, you know. I had everything that I 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: wanted as a child and growing up, you know, I 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 2: had all the love and support that any child can 43 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 2: ever ex for. You know, we used to go to 44 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: Mardi Gras. She used to take me to a lot 45 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: of parades. I used to go to a lot of 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: parties with my cousins, sleepovers and. 47 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: Things like that. 48 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: My one favorite with me and my grandmother used to 49 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: always like to eat ice cream when it's cold. She says, 50 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: better to eat ice cream when it's cold. So I 51 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: used to sit on the sofa freezing or debt trying 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: to hang out with her, you know, just eating ice 53 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: cream on the sofa, looking at movies. 54 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: When Katina was sixteen, she had her first child, Devilent, 55 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: with a high school boyfriend. A couple of years later, 56 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: her daughter, Britney was born, and then when Katina was nineteen, 57 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: she met Rinaldo Curly he was seventeen. 58 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: I met him through a friend. 59 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 2: One of my good friends was dating Ronaldo uncle and 60 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: I was over there one day and he came there 61 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: with his uncle, and that's how I met him. 62 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 1: What struck you about him? Why did you like him? 63 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: I liked him because he was always well groomed and 64 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: he used to dress nice, smell real good. 65 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: What did he dress like? I mean this was early, 66 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: that was ninety two, okay, so what I guess for 67 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: young girl listeners, like. 68 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: I was like a hip hop you know, like jeans, 69 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: T shirt, clean, tennis and you know, he knew how 70 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: to cut hair. So he was always well groomed and 71 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: at the time, you know he was to me, he 72 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: was nice, polite, you know, that's how they come off 73 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: all the time when you first meet him. 74 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: But not long into their relationship, Katina began to see 75 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: another side of Rinaldo. 76 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: We started getting into it, like probably not even a 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: month in us dating. 78 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: What kinds of things would you fight about? 79 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 2: We would fight about? He was like when we first 80 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: got together, he was the type that came off is 81 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: you know, if you're for him, you for him. It 82 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: was like always a jealous type. If I want to 83 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: go home, he didn't want me to go home. To 84 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: be honest with you, didn't take long to escalate. We 85 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: started with the arguments and then from the arguments it 86 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 2: turned into a fight, like a physical Yeah, it really 87 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: it got physical fast. 88 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: And what did that look like? Did he physically hit 89 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: you or was it like throwing things? 90 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: Like, no, it is physically hit me, Like physically we 91 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: used to fight. 92 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: What did you think when that happened? 93 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 2: At the time, I didn't I didn't know nothing about 94 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: domestic violence or you know, I didn't think, oh, this 95 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: was abuse. I'm thinking just fighting. It's my boyfriend, were fighting. 96 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: You know, I saw fights before as growing up as 97 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: a child. So I'm thinking, this is what it is 98 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: in a relationship. 99 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: That's kind of what you were seeing around you. It 100 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: just seemed kind of just normal. 101 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 3: It's a norm. Man like the norm. 102 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: In June of nineteen ninety five, Katina and Ronaldo got married. 103 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: Ronaldo had a son, also named Ronaldo, from a previous girlfriend, 104 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: and Katina had Devilon and Brittany. Over the next few years, 105 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: they added to their blended family with a son and 106 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: a daughter, Devin and April. 107 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: Was he a good dad, Yeah, he was a good dad. 108 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: I'm I can't take that away from him. You know, 109 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: he was a good dad. He basic the boys used 110 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: to catch weapons. But but yeah, he was a good dad. 111 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: But for Katina, the pattern of abuse continued over the years. 112 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: Their arguments would turn into fights and then into physical violence. 113 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: Katina later testified to being beaten by Ronaldo on numerous occasions, 114 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: sometimes in front of their children. She suffered bruises, a 115 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: broken nose, and once Ronaldo kicked her hard enough to 116 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: dislocate her shoulder. 117 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,119 Speaker 2: You know, I love Ronaldo and I wanted to stick 118 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: it out, I really did, but some days I just 119 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: felt so disgusted and was depressing down, and I just 120 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: lost myself and it was breaking me down. And I 121 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: didn't even know that it was breaking me down because 122 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: I couldn't even find my way no more. 123 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: Katina reported the abuse to police multiple times over the years. 124 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: At one point, she says her grandmother tried to step 125 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: in and warn her. 126 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 2: My grandmother, that was my best friend. She knew everything. 127 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: In the last incident before she passed. In all three, 128 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: that's when he broke my nose. And I went over 129 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: there and she looked at me, and I grabbed the 130 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: doorknob and she say tea, and I look back at her. 131 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: She said, baby, you have to get out. She says, 132 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: somebody's gonna get hurt. And I didn't say anything. I 133 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: just walked out the door. 134 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: How did your children react to they abuse? Did they 135 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: see it? 136 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: They used to hear it because we were you know, 137 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: they was in a home with us, and I used 138 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: to always like, you know, tell them to go in 139 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: a room or whatever. 140 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: But if we. 141 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: Thought like that night and they sleep, they used to 142 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: see my face the next morning, you know, we'll go out. 143 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 3: Tell my kids. 144 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: Were you afraid for them? 145 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: As far as him abusing them? 146 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: No, not, No, I wasn't afraid for them. 147 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: What I was afraid for is. 148 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 2: Them seeing me get abused and they thinking it's okay. 149 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: That's when it's time to exit. 150 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: No matter what. 151 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: My father was a good father and my mother was 152 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 4: a good mother, but they just had their own issues. 153 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: This is April Curly, Katina and Rinaldo's youngest daughter. 154 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 5: My mom is very sweet. 155 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 4: Everybody loves her, All my friends love her. When I 156 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 4: was younger, she used to take me and my siblings skating, 157 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 4: especially on the weekends, so we all know how to skate. 158 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: What do you remember about your parents' relationship. 159 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 4: My parents' relationship, it was good when it was good, 160 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 4: and when it was bad, it was bad. As far 161 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: as the fighting, the me waking up in the middle 162 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 4: of the night trying to protect my mom, it was 163 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 4: a lot. 164 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 5: It's a lot of the fightings. 165 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 4: Like any love thing would wake me up, so if 166 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 4: the argument start, I know to get up, like I 167 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 4: know it's gonna go far. 168 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: The The only one wasn't really scared of coming along 169 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: was my baby. 170 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: That was April. She used to always come check on 171 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 3: me always. 172 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: From a very young age. April and instinctively felt that 173 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: she had to protect her mother. 174 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 4: I know, maybe if I come in, maybe it will stop. 175 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 4: Like my brothers and my sister probably still stay asleep 176 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 4: or stay in the room. But me, I was always 177 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 4: the little warrior. I was brave. I wasn't scared. I 178 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 4: just feel like if I was to help her, it 179 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 4: will stop. And nobody else was able to stop it 180 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 4: at that moment. But me, I go over there and 181 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 4: be like, stop hitting the I pull him off, I 182 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 4: tell him stop fussing. But usually if he see me, 183 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 4: it will stop. He had defuse the problem and he'll leave. 184 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: Or I'd just tell her, come on, get your keys 185 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 4: and let's go, and I'll try to leave with her, 186 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 4: something like that. 187 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: So you did exit, Yeah, I exit a lot of times. 188 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: To be honest with you, I exit. I exit a 189 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: lot of times. 190 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: But he always found me and find a way persuade 191 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: me to come back home. Is like, I love you, 192 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: we have a baby, we have a family. You know 193 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: we're gonna work it out, and it's not gonna happen. 194 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 2: It's the same thing over and over and over again. 195 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: And then he got to the point where saying, nobody 196 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: not gonna love you like me, and you have four 197 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: kids and who's gonna take you with these kids and all? 198 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 2: And that's something that I thought about a lot, like, 199 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: who are gonna take me with these four kids? You know, 200 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: how how do I start all over? 201 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: Were you working? At that time? 202 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: He didn't want me to work. I had. I had 203 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: a good bit of jobs, but he used to always 204 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 3: make me quit. 205 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: Eventually, Katina started a job at Walmart and she liked 206 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: it and she wanted to keep it. 207 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: This particular job. 208 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: I told him, I said, whatever happened is gonna happen 209 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 2: because I've been trying to get on here and I'm 210 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: gonna work this job. 211 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 3: I want to work. I was tired of stay home. 212 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: I was tired of being bored being a you know, 213 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: a housewife, cleaning, cooking, you know the norm. And I 214 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: just want to get out and you know, make my 215 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 2: own money. I wanted my own money. I needed to 216 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 2: find me again. And you know, as the months went by, 217 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: I guess he just dealt with it. I was working 218 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: at Walmart for like almost three years before this incident happened. 219 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: In March of two thousand and five, when Katina was 220 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: thirty two years old, she left Rinaldo yet again. 221 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: You know the reason, why I left is so we 222 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 2: wouldn't get into another fight. 223 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: You know. 224 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: I thought it was just gonna be a few days. 225 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: But the few days turned it so a week. The 226 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: week turned it so look like another week. 227 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: Katina was staying with her mother during this time, while 228 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: the children stayed at the house with Rinaldo. 229 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 2: I used to go home, make sure they ate, make sure, 230 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: you know, Brittany got April together, his voice, she took 231 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: her bed, got a hell homb stuff like that. I 232 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: used to make sure they were straight, and then I leave. 233 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: So how long were you separated before the incident? 234 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: Just like, probably almost two weeks. I'm gonna say two 235 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: weeks at the most. 236 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: And did you feel like this was going to be 237 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: maybe the final time? Like? 238 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 5: Was this. 239 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 3: I wanted to be the final time. 240 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 2: I wanted it to be the final time, but I 241 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: didn't want it to be a final time like this. 242 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can 243 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 244 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava 245 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. On March thirtieth, two 246 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: thousand and five, police were called to the Curly residence 247 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: on Bass Street in the Littlewoods area of East New Orleans. 248 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: There they found the body of twenty nine year old 249 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: Raynaldo Curley. He had been shot through the heart and 250 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: was dead. A thirty eight caliber revolver was on the 251 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: table nearby. 252 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 6: Okay, there, there is a lot of different versions of 253 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 6: what happened. 254 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: This is Katina's post conviction attorney, Majeta Sneed. 255 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 6: I'm an attorney and law professor at Loyola Law School 256 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 6: in New Orleans. So the shorter version, which I think 257 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 6: everybody agrees on, is that Katina and you know, they 258 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 6: were separated at the time of this incident. So Katina 259 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 6: would come over and parenting things would happen, but she 260 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 6: would not sleep there. 261 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: So do you remember what started the argument that day? 262 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: What started the argument was they had someone in the 263 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: house that wasn't supposed to be there. That was my home, 264 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: no matter what, there was me and my children's home. 265 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: You know, that was our that's my family. So why 266 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: are you here? You don't there's you know, there's to 267 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: meet as a form of disrespect. 268 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: A neighbor Didra Andrews later testified at trial that she 269 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: had come over to the house to help Rinaldo get 270 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: the children ready for bed. Rinaldo's cousin, Chico, was also 271 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: there at the time. 272 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 3: So I asked them to leave, and that's how the 273 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 3: argument started. 274 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 6: Ronaldo did not appreciate her coming in and asking them 275 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 6: to leave, and so she proceeds to the upstairs bedroom. 276 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 6: He follows her. There is a confrontation. Whether the confrontation 277 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 6: was physical, whether it was just verbal. There's allegations that 278 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 6: he choked her, there's allegations that he threw a coke. 279 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 7: Can at her. 280 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 6: Whatever happened in that bedroom, they were the only two 281 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 6: in the bedroom, and at some point he goes back downstairs. 282 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 7: She grabs his gun and goes. 283 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 6: Downstairs in her mind to leave the residents, but knowing 284 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 6: from a historical standpoint that he may attempt to stop her, 285 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 6: she armed herself. 286 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: Where did the gun come from? 287 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: Well, actually that was his gun. That was his gun. 288 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: And I used to always ask him, you know, tell him, I. 289 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 3: Don't we don't need no gun in a home. 290 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: I never liked guns, you know, guns are dangerous, and he. 291 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: Just was he just was adamant to have it there. 292 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: Would he ever pull it out during arguments? 293 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pulled out on me. Before it was 294 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: pulled out on me before. 295 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 5: I remember Mom come home to come check on us. 296 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 4: I know, I just got done, taken a bath and 297 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: I did eat, so she was coming to check on 298 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 4: me and my sister make sure we did our homework, 299 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 4: her usual you know routine. 300 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: April was eight years old. She and three of her 301 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: siblings were home at the time, Rinaldo and Brittany, who 302 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: were both twelve, and Devin, who was ten. 303 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 4: As soon as I hear the screaming of the fussing, 304 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 4: I'm automatically, you know, going downstairs or wherever they are. 305 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 4: That's where I'm going because I know it's going to 306 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 4: escalate to something. 307 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 5: Father. So when I heard her, you. 308 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 4: Know, asked them to leave and me didn't leave, and 309 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: my dad got angry and it was like, you know, 310 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 4: this is his house too, and I already know it 311 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 4: was going to be something beyond it. 312 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: Did you do you remember hearing the gun? 313 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 5: Yeah? Of course I was in the stairway, so yes, 314 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 5: I do. 315 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: Did you see your dad? Did you see this happen? 316 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 5: Yeah? 317 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 4: Actually I say everything. I remember him standing a while 318 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 4: before he fell down to the ground. I remember my 319 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 4: Mom's screaming his name, shaking, crying, and I remember a 320 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 4: lot of people just bum rushing into the house. 321 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 6: The police come, she's arrested, and they then begin their 322 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 6: investigation about whether or not this was a justifiable shooting 323 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 6: or not. 324 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: So in all of the versions, does everyone agree that 325 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: Katina was the shooter? 326 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 4: Oh? 327 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 6: Yes, she acknowledges she was the shooter. The police ultimately 328 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 6: determined that it was not justifiable, turn it over to 329 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 6: the DA who also agreed that it was not justifiable. 330 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 6: And so that's how we get to her actually being 331 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 6: charged with second degree murder and going through a trial. 332 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: Afterwards. Before you were arrested, do you remember having any 333 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: thoughts for you like what just happened? 334 00:17:58,840 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: Ma'am? 335 00:17:59,560 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 5: I was. 336 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 2: I don't have a clue. I was like, I was 337 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: just there, like I didn't have a brain or nothing 338 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 2: in my head because I. 339 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 3: Just couldn't believe it. What is going on that day 340 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 3: is a blur. 341 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 6: You know, you go through there are moments where yes, 342 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 6: I know this, this, this and this, and at some 343 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 6: point there your body shuts down, your mind shuts down. 344 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 6: There are moments in that you know, in seconds where 345 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 6: you're not really sure other than fear. You could talk 346 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 6: about fear, but details. Why am I fearful? How did 347 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 6: I move? Which way did I turn? When did I 348 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 6: actually pulled the trigger? Did I actually pull the trigger? 349 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 7: Those details? It is common not to be able to 350 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 7: answer those questions with any precision. 351 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: When I got to the police station, you know, they 352 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 2: gave me water. They was asking me, kept asking me, 353 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: was our okay? And then they finally told me, you know, 354 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: I need to tell them what happened or whatever. And 355 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 2: I started talking and explaining, and to be honest with you, 356 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: I don't even know if I was explaining it right now. 357 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: I was just that messed up. I don't even know 358 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: if I was even explaining myself right. 359 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer with you? No? 360 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't. 361 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: Did you know you could? 362 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? 363 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: They told me I could. I heard him, and I 364 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: didn't hear. It's like you hear, you don't hear. 365 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: On August fourth, two thousand and five, Katina was indicted 366 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: on a charge of second degree murder. Her plea at 367 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: the time was not guilty by reason of insanity. This 368 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: would require that Katina prove at the time of the 369 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: shooting she didn't know right from wrong. Two days before trial, 370 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: her defense attorney John Fuller, changed her plea to not 371 00:19:54,400 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: guilty based on self defense and withdrew the insanity plea. 372 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 6: Had he kept that in, he could have then introduced 373 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 6: expert testimony on the issue of battered women. 374 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: So would battered women's syndrome have been a common defense 375 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: back then, almost twenty years ago? I guess is that 376 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: something that we talked about. 377 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 6: We talked about it, but it wasn't so much utilized 378 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 6: in domestic violence cases. 379 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 7: It was a movie, The Burning Bed. Farah Fawcet played a. 380 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 6: Battered woman, and I'm going to think it came out 381 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 6: in the seventies or eighties, but that was the first 382 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 6: time that we actually heard about a woman being justified 383 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 6: in fighting back to the point of death. 384 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 7: What battered women's syndrome. 385 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 6: Talks about is a response to stimuli when you have 386 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 6: suffered from trauma. So, for instance, you hear about post 387 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 6: traumatic stress syndrome with veterans, someone who suffers from that, 388 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 6: there's usually a trigger that sets that emotion, and so 389 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 6: the same with bad at women. Something happens that sets 390 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 6: in motion what happens to you physiologically and psychologically. That 391 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 6: you react in a certain way, so it's not you 392 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 6: walking down the street and all of a sudden you say, 393 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 6: oh my goodness, I'm hearing these voices and I'm gonna just, 394 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 6: you know, go off. There's the triggers, and in bad 395 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 6: at women syndrome, it's usually the trigger from the aggressor. 396 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 6: The uniqueness of this case was the issue of whether 397 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 6: or not, in the moment that the incident occurred, whether 398 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 6: the person felt threatened. 399 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 7: When you have a situation where. 400 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 6: Someone is being physically abused in the moment and the 401 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 6: victim reacts and kills the aggressor, a jury could look 402 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 6: at that and say, yes, in the moment, she felt 403 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 6: her life was in danger or she was in a 404 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 6: fear of. 405 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 7: Great bodily harm. However, when you have a situation where 406 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 7: the jury doesn't see in the moment she was being 407 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 7: choked or beaten on, then you need that expert testimony 408 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 7: to expound on what the victim is experiencing from a 409 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 7: psychological standpoint, from a physiological standpoint, and we did not 410 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 7: have it in this case. 411 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: Katina's trial began in February of two thousand and seven. 412 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 6: The defense put on a lot of information and a 413 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 6: lot of evidence regarding history of abuse in the relationship 414 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 6: between Katina and all dub He put on a case 415 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 6: of police reports, medical evidence, the testimony of her supervisor 416 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 6: who talked about her coming. 417 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 7: To work with bruises and a broken nose. 418 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 6: Just a history of abuse that was documented and so 419 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 6: the jury was well aware of that history. 420 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 3: It was a sad day for both families, you know, 421 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 3: from my side and also his side. It was just 422 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 3: it was sad. 423 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: And what hurted me the most is that the children 424 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 2: had to get up there to testify. You know, what 425 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 2: was that like? To see that there was heartbreaking, It 426 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: really was. It was heartbreaking because at some moment they 427 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 2: broke down. You know, their daddy is deceasing, their mom 428 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: about to go to jail. They're looking at my mom's 429 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: on trial. You know, they're not gonna have either one 430 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: of their parents. 431 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 3: So it was really heartbreaking. It was sad. 432 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: April was just ten years old when she testified at 433 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: her mother's trial. 434 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 4: Like I said, I was brave, so at the time 435 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 4: I was ready, but I am very like emotional. I 436 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 4: try to be strong the best I could, but when 437 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 4: I break down, I break down. 438 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: Were a lot of the questions about like what you 439 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: saw in the hole and their relationship. 440 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like did I witness abuse? When was 441 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 4: a time did I witness abuse? How many times have 442 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 4: I witnessed the abuse? Yeah, it was a lot of 443 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 4: a lot of questions. 444 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: Brittany and Devin also testified that they'd seen their father 445 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: be physically violent with Katina on previous occasions, but Ronaldo's 446 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: oldest son, Rinaldo, said something different. 447 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 6: He refuted that there was abuse a history of abuse, 448 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 6: so there was, you know, there was. 449 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 5: I truly believed. 450 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 6: The jury narrowed their focus to that moment, to what 451 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 6: was happening in the seconds before Rinaldo was shot, and 452 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 6: because there was no evidence in the seconds before he 453 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 6: was shot that he was physically confronting her in any way, 454 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 6: that was enough for them to say she wasn't justified 455 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 6: in her action. 456 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: On March third, two thousand and seven, Katina was convicted 457 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 1: of second degree murder by a vote of eleven to one. 458 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: She was sentenced to life in prison without parole. 459 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: I would never thought in a million years that I 460 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: ever be in prison, and for murder. I've never been 461 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: incarcerated in like reality had hit like I'm really in prison. 462 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 2: I had a life sentence over my head. So I 463 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 2: had nothing but time, you know, to think what could 464 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: have happened different if I would have just left and stayed. 465 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 3: You know this, you know what it could have been me. 466 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 3: You know, it could have been meeted, been dead and 467 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 3: away from my kids. You know, some people be content. 468 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 3: I wasn't. 469 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: I always say I'm getting out, you know, I'm going on. 470 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: I know since day one when I stepped for it, 471 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 2: it was said it was scary, it was depressing, But 472 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: I never ever once accepted that life sentence. 473 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: I never accepted it. 474 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: What was trying to parent and be a mom and 475 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: be there for your kids, like from behind bars hard. 476 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 3: It was hard because you only get fifteen minutes on 477 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 3: the phone, so you have to keep calling and then 478 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 3: they'll come see me. I used to come in the 479 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 3: morning and leave, you know, at a certain time. But 480 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: you know, to me, that was our time to bind 481 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 3: and talk, play games together and stuff like that, and 482 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 3: it was it felt so good just to. 483 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 2: Be with them in that moment. But when they left, 484 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: it was so hard. It was so so hard. 485 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 4: I think my mom tried her best. It just wasn't 486 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 4: enough time, you know, but we always wrote each other. 487 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 4: We always talked, and it didn't matter if it was 488 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 4: the weekend, if she had to stay up late like, 489 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 4: we always had our conversation. 490 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 5: And if we didn't have a conversation, I had letter 491 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 5: at the mail. 492 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 4: So men and my mom are really, really, really close. 493 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 4: It was hard because I did left with my grandmother, 494 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 4: which is. 495 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 5: My mom's mom. 496 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 4: I mean I was loved, I was taking care of, 497 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 4: but it just wasn't the same. 498 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, what is bringing up all the emotions right now? 499 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 4: It's just a trigger for me. It's flashbacks, it's limories. 500 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 4: It's something you can never forget. I don't care how 501 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 4: much therapy, how much talking, when you live so much trauma, 502 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 4: it's nothing that could take that away, know about a happiness? 503 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 5: What take away what I went through? 504 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: You know, my oldest son told me one time when 505 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 2: he came, you know, he put his head because he 506 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: like my old man. He quiet and I said, something wrong, 507 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: de what's going on with you? And he looked at 508 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 2: me said we ain't have a good Christmas since you left. 509 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 2: And you know how bad I felt, you know how 510 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that really kept me going. My children, 511 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: my family, my friend, they really I had so much 512 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: support and so much love and my children. 513 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: I had to I know, I had to fight for 514 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: my kids to get out. 515 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: Tina's initial appeal to her conviction was denied. She then 516 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: filed for post conviction relief, arguing ineffective assistance of counsel. 517 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: They argued that her attorney had withdrawn the insanity defense 518 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: without consulting her, and that he had failed to educate 519 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: the jury on the effects of battered women syndrome. 520 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 6: So what the Supreme Court ultimately determined was that an 521 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 6: expert in the area of bat at. 522 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 7: Women syndrome should have been called. 523 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 6: Yes, there was an effective assistance, because the trial council 524 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 6: admittedly says I never thought about having an expert. I 525 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 6: wasn't well versed in the issues of bat at women's syndrome. 526 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 6: I thought the facts of the case alone with the 527 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 6: history of abuse for almost a decade, would be sufficient, 528 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 6: and so I did not even consult an expert. 529 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: On June seventh, twenty eighteen, the Louisiana Supreme Court determined 530 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: that the jury at the original trial should have had 531 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: the benefit of expert testimony, and on the basis of 532 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: ineffective counsel, the conviction was reversed and Katina was granted 533 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: a new trial. Two days later, she was released on bond. 534 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 3: When I found out the day that I was going home, 535 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 3: it was in twenty eighteen. It was in June. I'll 536 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 3: never forget. 537 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: Katina was told to get dressed and go to the 538 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: prison office, but she had no idea why. When she 539 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: got there, she was surprised to see her attorney, Paul Barker, 540 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: Like what he doing here? 541 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: And he looked and he just held the envelope. I 542 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: envelope up and he was like, you're going home. And 543 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: I hollered from the Lord Hill mercy. Oh that was 544 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 2: a good feeling. I jumped in a man homs like 545 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: I was a baby. It was really a good feeling. 546 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 4: When she came home, we just did everything that we 547 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 4: used to do. We was skating, you know, we were 548 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 4: pulling as a family. And that was just like me 549 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 4: and her. It was like me her and my brother 550 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 4: said sisters like we stuck together. 551 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: And then coming home to that they was trying to 552 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: figure out, you know, who was going to take the case, 553 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 2: you know how who was gonna try it or whatever. 554 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 3: And that's when I met miss. 555 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: Me Katina's retrial began on February twenty sixth, twenty nineteen, 556 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: in Orleans Parish Criminal Court before Judge Arthur Hunter Junior. 557 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: This time there was no jury. Judge Hunter would be 558 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: the one to decide her fate. So how did you 559 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: feel at your second trial? Did you feel confident? 560 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 5: Oh? 561 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was very confident. I was. 562 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: I was nervous, don't get me wrong, because I mean 563 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: it's a trial, it's another trial. 564 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: But I was confident. And you know, this second trial. 565 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: But they could have rules to send you back. 566 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, they could have rules to send me back. But 567 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 2: I was more confident because we had more evidence. We 568 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: had more pieces, like you know, the experts coming in. 569 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 2: So that's what made me more confident, you know, for 570 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: them to explain, you know, what I went through all 571 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: those years. 572 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: At the retrial, Katina's defense team presented testimony from Beth Meek's, 573 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: a domestic violence expert, and forensic psychologist Catherine Laing. 574 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 6: And so between the testing that was done by the 575 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 6: psychologist and the expert in that woman's syndrome in general, 576 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 6: we were able to show what Mss Curly was experiencing 577 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 6: in that moment. There was justification for the fear for 578 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 6: the reaction, and based on that testimony not just from 579 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 6: the experts, but also from the late witnesses. When you 580 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 6: talk about it justifiable defense, that's an affirmative defense. And 581 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 6: once you put on an affirmative defense, the state has 582 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 6: an obligation to come back and rebuff that, and the 583 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 6: state was unable to do so. 584 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: Judge Hunter agreed with the defense's argument. On March first, 585 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Katina was acquitted of the murder charge. 586 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: That's another moment that I never forget. When they found 587 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: me not yelty. I was so excited just knowing I 588 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: can go home with my kids. Now I can breathe better. 589 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: And it was just such a blessing just to be 590 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 2: back with my family and my kids, just to talk 591 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: on the phone. And my son called me so much, 592 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 2: Oh my god. All in the mid Devin. 593 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 3: He like a little in sensitive. He looked like to 594 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 3: the baby. He called your mom. What Devin. I'm like, 595 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 3: what's wrong? He's like, no, no, I just want to hear 596 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 3: your voice. He said. 597 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: It feels so good just to pick up the phone 598 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: to call you. But is beautiful being out with my 599 00:33:58,760 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: kids and my eye of grant. 600 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 3: I have but eight of. 601 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: Them, so they was kind of busy when I was 602 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: locked up. 603 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 4: My mother is a strong Black woman, and I think 604 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 4: she deserves everything that she worked for, everything that she 605 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 4: didn't get. I feel like she deserved it. I feel 606 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,919 Speaker 4: like it's helped her to live. I think it's time 607 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 4: for her, you know, just to you know, sit back 608 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 4: and just it. Enjoyed herself. It enjoyed her life, not 609 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 4: to worry so much, just to be happy. 610 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: But even though she's out of prison, Katina still thinks 611 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: about the many women who are there because they were 612 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: victims of domestic violence, just like her. 613 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: They have a good bit of women in there for 614 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: self defense. And I hear that they're using my case 615 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: to get a lot of women out of prison, and 616 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 2: they have something that got out of prison because of my. 617 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: How does that feel? 618 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 5: It feels good. 619 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: It feels good to help other people, other women you 620 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: know that's going through the same thing I'm going through it. 621 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 2: As far as like domestic violence, I would like to 622 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,760 Speaker 2: go talk to like different schools and go to different 623 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 2: functions to talk to like lawyers, doctors, police. You know 624 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: a lot of people don't know about domestic violence. You 625 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: know they hear about it, but they really don't. They 626 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 2: probably be just like me at one point, just thinking 627 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 2: we just fighting. 628 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 3: But it's not okay. No matter how you look at it, 629 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 3: or no matter how much you feel. 630 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: Like things will change, when it becomes physical, it will 631 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: turn out bad. 632 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: If you are experiencing domestic violence, help is available. Call 633 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: the National Domestic Violence Hotline at one eight hundred seventy 634 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: ninety nine safe or text start to eight eight seven 635 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: eight eight. Those numbers will be available in our episode description. 636 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 637 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the 638 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,800 Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help. 639 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, 640 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea, 641 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Souls. 642 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional 643 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in 644 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay 645 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: Ralph be sure to follow us on all social media 646 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You 647 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. 648 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava 649 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one