WEBVTT - Ghislaine Maxwell and Elizabeth Holmes on Trial 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Bresso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:13.200 For former socialite Glaine Maxwell, the moment of reckoning is 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.200 at hand. This week in Manhattan federal court, jury selection 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.520 began for her trial on trafficking underage girls for sexual 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.840 abuse by her former boyfriend Jeffrey Epstein. The fifty nine 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.080 year old faces six felony charges. All four alleged victims 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:34.440 are expected to testify. If convicted of the most serious crimes, 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.839 Maxwell could face as long as forty years in prison. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.040 Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado, who's covering 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.800 the trial. Patty. For those who don't know, tell us 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:50.479 who Glaine Maxwell is. Gleam Maxwell is a British socialite, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.760 Oxford educated born in Paris, daughter of former British publishing 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:00.200 baron Sir Robert Maxwell. She is his youngest child and 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.120 she's allegedly was a former girlfriend of Jeffrey Epstein's and 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:10.039 the government argues that Maxwell conspired with Epstein in the 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:15.240 six trafficking scheme, accused of alluring underage girls to Epstein's 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.679 so he could sexually abuse them, and also for participating 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.840 some of the abuse. The defense she's been mounting all 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.400 the lawyers, all the motions is expensive. How much money 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.880 does she have now? It's about two million, and the 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.640 government has previously alleged that she got twenty million was 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:41.919 transferred from accounts tied to Epstein to her accounts offshore accounts, 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.600 and so the government says that she's got at least 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.080 twenty million dollars, which is the reason why they said 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.000 she had the money and the ability to flee. She 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:53.320 has a French passport and if she fled to France, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.640 they don't extradsee. So she's been in custody since she 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:03.559 was arrested in July of So, looking at the prosecution's case, 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.600 what is the prosecution expected to present? But the government 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.920 already promised they're going to have four They were underage 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.960 women under the law that it was illegal for Epstein 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.119 to have sex with them at the time he sexually 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:24.200 abused them. They're going to have these four underage women 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.040 who are now older. Some of the accuse went back 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:33.000 as far as when one of the accusers was about 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.200 thirteen or fourteen years old. So they're going to call 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.760 these victims who they say are victims. Maxwell wanted to 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.679 argue they're not victims, and they should just be called accusers. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.800 So the government is going to call these four people 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:50.440 to testify, including some of them may testify under pseudonyms 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:55.400 or nicknames because some of the testimony is incredibly embarrassing 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.960 and it happened to them when they were younger. What 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.880 other witnesses are we likely to see? They've also promised 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.000 that they're going to call other witnesses who may have 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:11.480 been present or known about the Epstein sex trafficking. So 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.600 it sounds like what the government wants to do is 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:18.119 call additional victims, although it's not clear yet. Also, there 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.560 was a two thousand eight search by Palm Beach Police 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:27.600 and they went to Epstein's home and they seized evidence, 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:33.280 including photographs as well as a massage table. There's apparently 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:39.560 some sex toys. Also, interestingly, there's been discussion of seizure. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.960 Somehow the government got ahold of what's called Epstein's Little 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.600 Black Book, and it's an addressed book with names and 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:52.240 telephone numbers. But there's apparently also another book tied to 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.680 going Maxwell. It's some kind of addressed book and one 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.000 of these books the government has says they have evidence 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:05.680 that include the names of these underaged young women, as 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:10.640 well as telephone numbers for their parents. So I guess 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.320 the idea is they were so young they didn't have 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.000 cell phones at the time, and their moms or dads 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.200 that so there was contact information for their parents in 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:23.800 these phone books. And there's also listings about names under 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:29.240 massages for these girls allegedly, So the judge hasn't ruled 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:31.920 on how much evidence the government's going to be allowed 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.560 to show the jury. Of course, the defenses are doing 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.760 vociferously than strongly that some of this information is too 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:43.200 prejudicial and can't be tied to Maxwell. Are there emails 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.880 or texts that are tied to her? Yes? There apparently 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:52.400 are also email exchanged between Epstein and Maxwell. We know 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.320 of at least one of them that came out as 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.799 part of evidence in Virginia. Guffre is that Epstein Maxwell 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:04.840 at user who sued Maxwell for defamation, and they settled 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:09.400 the lawsuit, but the documents tied to that later got unsealed, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.440 and so one of them is an email that Epstein 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.159 and Max all exchange that showed they were still in 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:21.200 contact after he had his non prosecution deal with federal 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:26.080 prosecutors in two thousand eight, and basically Epstein is telling 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.000 Maxwell to keep your chin up and don't act like 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:33.120 a criminal. So we definitely have seen some emails, and 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.800 the government has promised more evidence. The defense lawyer said 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.640 he intends to ask the alleged victims why they failed 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.560 to come forward sooner, if substance abuse impaired their memories, 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.560 and also wants to question them about their sexual behavior. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.719 Those sounds like questions from years ago, before the Me 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.440 Too movement, blaming the victim. You got it there. I 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.000 agree with you. I've covered courts for years now, and 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.960 I cover State Court in Brooklyn, and there were many 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:08.039 occasions that caused outrage back then where defense lawyers wanted 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.560 to question a witness. I can remember one of prostitute. 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.000 She had witnessed a murder or an attempted murder, and 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.320 the lawyer wanted to question her about her sex life 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.960 and her sex history. So that was not allowed and 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.080 that caused If you're at least twenty years ago in 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.520 Brooklyn State Supreme Court, it's hard to believe it's and 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.360 we're having this discussion again. The judge, it's unclear what 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.880 she has ruled. She had an in camera hearing with 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:43.000 the lawyers about that testimony and how much the defense 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:47.000 is going to be allowed to raise the sexual background 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:51.520 of these complaining witnesses, these four women. I mean, you 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.839 could argue it's not out of the realm of the 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:59.400 possible that even if someone is sexually active, they can 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.440 still be victimized by someone else and it's still going 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.360 to be a crime. Now, I don't know whether that's 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.440 to raise reasonable doubt. Seems like that's what the defense 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:11.800 is trying to do, and it's unclear that's still on 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:14.920 the table, and the judge hasn't officially said what her 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.240 ruling is on that. Besides attacking the victims, are trying 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.520 to discredit them. Do you have a sense of what 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.960 the defense is going to be. It sounds like the 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.200 defense there's kind of a hodgepodge of things. But there 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.600 was a defense filing a couple of weeks ago which 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:36.440 was they'd like to call these two experts their forensic psychiatrists. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:40.480 Is one of them is an expert on false memory, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:45.080 and it's a woman who testified at Harvey Weinstein's trial 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:49.080 that people can have false memories of some traumatic event 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.600 like a sexual assault. And she testified at Harvey Weinstein's 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.520 trial that maybe these women were making up these stories 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.320 and the jury did believe it and rejected that and 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.960 convicted Harvey Weinstein. The prosecution says that this doctor and 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.880 this expert has never been allowed to testify in federal court. 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.720 That's also a pending request. They also want to call 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.960 an expert that says there's no such thing as grooming 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.960 in a sexual abuse case. You know, we've heard, now, 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.800 I guess in the common nomenclature that someone was being 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:28.000 groomed for abuse by getting presents and gifts and being enticed. 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.840 And I guess the defense is trying to blunt that 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.360 with suggesting there is no such thing as grooming. This 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.679 is just a concoctive theory or concoctive terminology. It's kind 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.520 of psycho babble, and that it's really just being nice 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.080 can be misinterpreted as grooming. So they were trying to 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.640 keep the testimony about grooming out of the case. It 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.320 sounds like the judges willing and favor the government and 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.840 not allowing this claim that grooming doesn't exist. They're also 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:04.240 arguing that Epstein had the halo effect, and they argue 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:06.719 that they want to have an expert that he had 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:11.840 a personality trait he was able to exploit the halo effect, 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:16.599 like surrounded by this aura of wonderfulness that automatically attracted 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:20.560 people to him, and that people were attracted to his wealth, 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.920 some people seeking some of the wealth that he had 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.760 and his aura of attractiveness, if you will. It sounds 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.040 like the defense wants to argue that, you know, maybe 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:34.880 perhaps Maxwell fell into that lore of Epstein's halo effect 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.240 and that she too came under his spell. So is 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.640 there any chance that she'll take the stand in her 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.800 own defense. I don't think so, mainly because she's are 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:50.040 also charged with perjury and she's charged with wine under 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:56.239 oath during depositions she gave in that Virginia Gufrey defamation lawsuit. 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.280 So grew Fris lawyers David Boy's question x well, and 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.000 the government says that based on her answers claiming that 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:09.120 she didn't know anything about sexualized massages involving teenage girls 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.080 under the age of consent, that she was lying, and 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.640 so they charged her with two counts of perjury. So 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.680 the judge has ruled that those perjury counts will be 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:23.160 tried later, and so Maxwell would be opening herself up 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:27.880 to basically getting confronted about whether or not those were 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.160 wise before that perjury case can go forward. I don't 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.839 think her lawyers want to put her in that position. 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.480 So how does she appear You've been sitting through jury selection. 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.920 How does she appear in the courtroom? Well, it's been 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.920 an interesting transformation. I mean we all had seen her 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:51.000 with that great short Bob's black haircut, you know, shining 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:55.640 black hair, dangling earring, dressed at gala's and going to 0:10:55.760 --> 0:11:00.000 events smiling, you know, as a British socialite. She's even 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.840 photographed going to the Ascot Races, the Royal Ascot Races 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.280 with Prince Andrew in a giant hat and beautiful clothes. 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.240 She came to court earlier this year and she was 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:15.920 just you know, drawn out, pale, wearing prison guard like 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:20.400 prison fatigues, and she was shackled like Marley's Ghost, wearing 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.559 a chain around her waist and she was handcuffed to 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.439 that chain, and then she had shackles around her ankles. 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.840 The first day she came in for the hearings this week, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:34.000 they started individual questioning of jurors. She was wearing a 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:38.800 black turtleneck and a pair of gray slacks and like 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.640 black ballet flats. She had a huge smile on her 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.840 face and she hugged all of her lawyers and seem 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.760 very chipper and happy, and she's been very animated. She's 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:56.160 also been irritated, apparently by the court artists. So she 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.959 has turned around and they have, you know, court sketch artists, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.120 because photography is not allowed in federal court. So there's 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.040 these professional artists that come to court and they draw 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.400 the scene, and they may draw the witness that they 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.320 draw the descendants, and they draw the judge. In this case, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:13.920 they're not going to be allowed to draw some of 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:18.840 these witnesses, these women accusers. But Maxwell seemed irritated. And 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.400 I was sitting next to one of the court artists 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.760 and Maxwell shot a look at me and then went 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.720 over and started scribbling madly on her pad. She had 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.080 like a notepad, so she was drawing the court artists 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.920 as they drew her. And she looked very fierce. Oh, 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:38.839 I guess everyone deals with it in their own way 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.480 of the pressures of being on trial. How is jury 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.840 selection been going, What kinds of concerns has the judge 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.040 been addressing. The judge has basically tried to find out 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.840 what they know about the f Stein case and what 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.960 do they know about Maxwell if they seen the Netflix series. 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.160 You know, I think there's been three different up for 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:02.840 a television series. Of books have been written about this. 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:07.920 The Miami Harold reporter Julie Brown investigated it for The 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.520 Miami Harold into the multi part series. She wrote a 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.000 book that just come out. So the judge needs to 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.840 find out what they know about Epstein Maxwell case, and 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.680 they have any biases or prejudice based on what they've 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.720 known or read. And so there was even a guy 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.280 today we had that actually met Epstein, which seems like 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.640 if you've got a jury that comes from the southern 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:35.360 district of New York's five Counties, which includes Manhattan, the Bronx, Westchester, 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.840 Putnam and Rockland County, you would think that somebody in 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:43.240 Manhattan in all these decades where Epstein lived might have 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.200 had some interactions with him. I've certainly covered trials since 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.760 the descendants, neighbors, you know, show up on the jury 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.720 or something. But in this case, there was only one 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.360 guy out of dozens of people interviewed, and he said 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.000 he had had a business feeling with Epstein, who was 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:03.400 an investor in his fund, and that he met Epstein once, 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.640 very briefly for thirty seconds. So um, the judge asked, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.480 having met Epstein, did that caused him to follow the 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.240 case more closely, which he said yes, So he was 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.679 actually excused our opening statements on Monday. No. Actually, they 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.080 went through questionnaire with like about six hundred people that 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.920 they summoned. Of those six hundred, they brought in two 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.800 hundred thirty one that qualified based on their answers, there 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:33.320 was nothing really apparent that you know, disqualified them from sitting. 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:38.600 And then the judge interviewed uh, almost sixty people starting 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.560 on Monday, and she's been doing whole day sessions of 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:46.479 nine hours at a time interviewing, so she's got about 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.960 sixty and she's allowing the lawyers they know who these 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.680 potential jurors are, and they have the names, they're going 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.680 to be allowed to see if there's any conflict or 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.800 they have any objection students people. So she's giving them 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.000 time him to do the research and figure out who 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:04.280 they want on the jury, and they're going to actually 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.880 come into court on November twenty nine. They're gonna pick 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.560 the jury and do peremptory challenges and they're going to 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.840 pick a jury of twelve and six alternates on and 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.720 then they're going to do opening statements. So, and the 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.640 judge herself has made some news recently. Yeah, it was 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.880 kind of surprising. Uh, she was very corey about it. 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.960 But she announced everyone after it came out in the 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.120 New York Times that Senator Charles Schimmer was recommending her 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.760 to be on the federal appeals court called the Second 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.240 Circuit Court of Appeals. So she told everyone she wanted 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.200 to give them comfort that she intended to stay with 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.240 the case and keep the case till it was done. 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:46.160 And we have had judges in the past that have 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.560 kept cases, like Denny Chin, federal judge in the Southern District, 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.720 and he got nominated to the Second Circuit Court of 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.520 Appeals while he still had the made Off Turning made 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.400 off case, so he kept it even after he was 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.400 on the Circuit. Thanks for being the Bloomberg Gloss Show, Patty. 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:08.120 That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Patricia Hurtado. The prosecution is wrapping 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.680 up its case against Elizabeth Holmes, arguing that Holmes was 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.600 remarkably deceptive and building blood testing start up there a 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.880 nose into a nine billion dollar company, dazzling partners and 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.600 investors with the expectation they would profit from a revolution 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.400 in healthcare, even though she knew her blood analyzers were 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.600 failed technology. Holmes is now at the point in the 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.840 trial where she'll have to decide whether she'll testify in 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.200 her own defense. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter Joel Rosenblatt, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.000 who's been covering the trial. During the prosecution's case, what 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:46.920 have jurors been learning about theorophns? What are the big takeaways? 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.640 A big take leader a number of recurring themes that 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.400 the prosecution has just kind of hammered away at One 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:58.760 would be former THEOS employees, including the highest level lab director, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.400 having deep misgivings about the accuracy of fairness blood testing machines, 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:11.600 raising those concerns to Elizabeth Homes and eventually being pressured 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.200 to kind of find a way around the results, and eventually, 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:19.400 because of those misgivings, because they so deeply offended, these 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.919 employees sense of scientific integrity, you know, their integrity as scientists, 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:29.879 but also their own personal morality, quitting the company. Oftentimes 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.199 they're not lasting more than a year or so, but 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:37.560 very committed, high level, very highly educated employees, just not 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.000 wanting to stay, unable to stay. That was kind of 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.919 the first piece of what they've heard. Then the prosecution 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:49.400 moved into investors and how investors were misled by Elizabeth 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.679 Holmes about the accuracy, which you know from the previous 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.280 testimony that just described you knew wasn't there. And then 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.919 also the work that she was doing with pharmaceutical company. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.719 So early on, Saranos did indeed have some contracts with 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:09.480 pharmaceutical companies who were interested in her blood analyzer, but 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.600 eventually they didn't see the results that they thought were 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.600 accurate enough for them to continue that relationship. What George 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:21.320 have seen is that in some instances Elizabeth Holmes presented 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:27.240 reports showing that her analyzer was was accurate, but lifting 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:32.520 the logos of Fiser, for example, onto this report, and 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.800 those reports were essentially falsified to show that her analyzer 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.760 was accurate, when in fact these companies walked away from 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.879 it precisely because it wasn't accurate enough. So that's a 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.960 level of just kind of fabrication, of falsification, of plagiarism 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.400 that was It's rather blatant, it's pretty shocking. The third 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:55.879 one is that is part of her promotion of the 0:18:55.920 --> 0:19:00.560 analyzer to investors, she told investors and kind of the 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.800 world rather widely that her blood test analyzer was being 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.520 had been adopted by the U. S. Military, and was 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:12.280 being used on the battlefield in combat on Metavac helicopters. 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.800 This was proven to be not true. It was never true. 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.600 There was one small contract she had with the U. S. 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.240 Army very early on, but it was never adopted by 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.199 the military, it was never used in any way in 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.160 what she described, and this was refuted by no less 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.040 than former Secretary of Defense James Maddis, who took the stand. 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.480 So that was another example of just a blatant lie 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.919 really that she's telling investors, who also factored that heavily 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:45.000 in their decision to give her hundreds of millions of dollars. 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:49.080 So it sounds like a pretty powerful prosecution case. So far. 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.919 Was the defense able to make any inroads with these witnesses. 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.800 The inroads that they've made have been on cross examination. 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.160 In my estimation, it's it's been hard to follow. Uh. 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.800 First of all, it's difficult. It's just difficult to kind of, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.840 I think overcome that testimony and where they are. It's 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.399 been a kind of scatter shot approach. And so now 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:18.120 what we've seen is long, long cross examinations that are 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:23.520 beginning to irritate the judge. They're irritating everyone else, including 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.280 one presumes the jury. And I think it's an effort 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.639 to draw out the trial, you know, I think the 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:34.480 the short answer to your question is the cross examinations 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.320 have not been particularly effective, at least as far as 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.240 I can tell. They're hard to follow. Their their scatter shot, 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.920 and they're they're long. Has there been any mention of 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:51.560 Sonny Belwani and his part in this, Well, Sonny is 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.320 a co conspirator, He was charged as a co conspirator. 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.840 Their trials were severed, so he's going to be tried 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.840 tried separately starting in January. And he comes up a lot. 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.480 So he's been mentioned a lot. I mean, they were, 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:12.160 according to the prosecution, partners in crime here. So he figures, 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:17.080 he figures prominently. It's a kind of careful dance prosecutors 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.040 have to do there because it's Elizabeth Holmes who's on trial, 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.960 and they've taken extraordinary efforts to show that while they 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:29.359 were co conspirators, that she was in charge. So for 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.679 the purposes of this trial and trying to get her conviction, 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.399 they've had to show that she was in charge. And 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:41.200 they've raised numerous instances elicited testimony in which former employees 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:46.919 or business partners said that in meetings that they both attended, 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.040 Elizabeth Holmes was really in charge. You know what the 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:55.040 defense is going to be. Did they say they're opening 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:58.800 statements what the defense would be? Well, this is the 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.560 big question war and and we're nearly at the crossroads. 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.120 The prosecution has said it will rest this week. I'm 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.200 not sure if that's going to happen. But your question 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:13.000 is the big question, because she indicated before the trial 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.280 that she may raise a defense pointing to Sunny Baul 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:21.119 Wahani as having been so uh psychologically in some instances 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:25.760 even physically abusive, that she was in fact controlled by him, 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.240 that her that his abuse was so so strong and 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:35.560 so forceful and so formative that she was essentially doing, 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:39.040 you know, the things she's accused of under his control. 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:44.280 So that has not been raised so plainly yet at trial. 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:48.399 Before the jury in opening arguments, her lawyer did hint 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.600 at it that that this relationship she was in a 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:56.000 romantic relationship with Sunny while they were both at para nose. 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.919 He was, he was the president. Lance Wade, her lawyer, 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.960 indicated in opening arguments that this relationship was one of 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.760 a number of bad choices that Elizabeth Holmes made, So 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:10.879 he has hinted at it. It's just not clear. We 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.400 just don't know what her defense is going to be yet. 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.520 We don't know if she's going to pursue this unprecedented 0:23:16.640 --> 0:23:19.600 defense to a you know, a white car criminal fraud case. Right, 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:21.800 it is unprecedented in this kind of a case. And 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:26.080 then we've heard that kind of defense coming from battered 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:30.160 women as a self defense, usually to some kind of 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:34.919 criminal act, but not in this context. So has the 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:41.080 prosecution been anticipating it in any way? Well, yes, I 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.040 mean the short answer is yes. You can see there 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.879 have been kind of preemptive strikes. I think this, this 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.840 effort that I explained earlier to show that she was 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.960 in charge, can be seen as a preemptive strike to 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.239 this type of defense. In other words, if she's in 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.760 charge and she's running a company, not only is she 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.840 kind of superior, not only is she Sunny's superior, and 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:07.560 she was in fact entitled his superior as chief executive, 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.879 but she was running the show. And so the idea is, 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:16.200 how could she possibly be so highly functional and so 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.879 in charge and and yet at the same time being 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:24.919 so manipulated by Bye Sonny Bowani. The defense is a 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:28.880 is a real stretch because you know, essentially what they 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:32.240 have to prove is that she was so under his 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:35.479 control that she couldn't tell right from wrong. That's that's 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:37.919 what they have to prove. And I think that's a 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:42.320 real stretch. She has the benefit of Balwannie not being 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.080 in the courtroom, not being on trial with her. As 0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:49.320 you said, his his trial was severed, so she can 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:51.199 say what she wants to and no one will be 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.440 able to check with him. Well, that's right, That's exactly 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:57.199 why the trial was severed, because Sonny Bowani made the 0:24:57.200 --> 0:25:00.000 point that he can't possibly defend against the government's allegations 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:04.000 and hers at the same time. So she has yea 0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:08.280 wide latitude and lee way to to to blame him 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:12.600 and point to him. She's under oath, right, so if 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:16.680 she testifies or whoever testifies on her behalf, she has 0:25:16.720 --> 0:25:19.359 she does have an expert lined up as a as 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:25.920 a potential witness as psychological expert. You know, everybody, everybody 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:29.720 who's understand is sworn to tell the truth. So she 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.800 can say what she wants. But unless she's willing to 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:37.760 just lie under oath and risk being in contempt of court. Uh, 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:41.920 it has to be truthful. So she's been painted as 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:46.680 very charismatic. I mean, we've all seen the interviews she did. 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:50.879 What is she like in the courtroom? Well, in the courtroom, 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:53.400 you know, she hasn't had a chance to speak yet, 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.280 and again it's not clear if she's going to. Most 0:25:57.280 --> 0:25:59.920 criminal defense players will tell you that they don't want 0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:03.919 they don't want their defendant to understand. So so she's 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.000