1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear from the man the myth legend, 4 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: our super producer, mister Max Williams as I am here, 5 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: and I am mister Max Williams, and I am Ben. 6 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: I don't go with it and I've been bullend. That's 7 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: mister Noel Brown as always, and Noel, A funny thing 8 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: happened on the way to Podcast Movement. We had an 9 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: amazing time meeting a lot of our friends, new and old, 10 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: a lot of colleagues, and during one of the panels 11 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: we did, we connected with a dream team that we've 12 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: talked about quite often in the history of this show, 13 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian Institution. 14 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: The smith the very Smithsonian Institute. We encountered it in 15 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: its human personified form at Podcast Movements and it. 16 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: Was a delight. 17 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: And we are pleased to inform you Rick the Historians 18 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: that we have the actual human embodiment of the Smithsonian 19 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: Institute with us here on the podcast today. 20 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: Ben tallas Mark, Yes, the. 21 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: Rumors are true. The Smithsonian Institution's podcast side door is 22 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: helmed by the audio producers, storyteller and senior producer Lizzie 23 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Peabody from Washington, DC, And Lizzie, you were here with 24 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: us today. Holy smokes, thank you so much for joining us. 25 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,919 Speaker 4: Wow, you're welcome. I've never been introduced as the human 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 4: embodiment of an institution, and I feel heavier already. 27 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: The pressure is indeed on because not only has he 28 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: given you the most difficult to live up to honorific 29 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 2: I guess in our introduction of you, but we are 30 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: literally today talking about the very founding of the institution 31 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 2: in which you yourself personally embody. 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, indeed, which is a founding not many people 33 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 4: know about. 34 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 3: I certainly didn't. 35 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: And you know, when you think of the founding of 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: like an institution that you know is funded by an 37 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: endowment and things like that, you don't really usually think 38 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: it's a sexy kind of exciting story. But you hipped 39 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 2: us to this story, and we were fully on board 40 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: from the word go. 41 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 4: It is a sexy story, yes, I mean a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. 42 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: So could we get the lay of the land here, 43 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: I think most people are before we dive in. I 44 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: think most people are familiar with the Smithsonian Institution. Could 45 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about Side Door and 46 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: the mission of this show and what it explores. 47 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 4: Yes, I would love to. Side Door is the Smithsonian 48 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 4: Institution's podcast, meaning we broadcast stories from across the many 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 4: museums and research complexes, which currently is in the twenties. 50 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,119 Speaker 4: There's you know, the many museums, the National Zoo, there's 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 4: a lot of research centers as well, and so we 52 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 4: get to tell stories of history, science, art and culture 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 4: that you might miss on a typical trip to the 54 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 4: National Ball and a meander through one of the museums. 55 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing, and that reminds me, you know, like like 56 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: you said earlier, Noel, stories that people might miss. In 57 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: an episode of side Door, you explore the origin story, 58 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 1: the genesis of the Great Smithsonian, and it all begins 59 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: with a guy named William Bennett. 60 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 4: Yes, sort of sort I mean, well, let me actually 61 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 4: can I I just thought just had an idea and 62 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 4: I let me just tell like, okay, So let me 63 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 4: just say, you know, I think a lot of people 64 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 4: when they think of the Smithsonian, they think a museum, 65 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 4: or maybe a few museums, But there is nothing more 66 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 4: iconic than the red sandstone castle on the National Mall. 67 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 4: It's got turrets, it's got like it looks old and important. Uh, 68 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 4: And people walk by it every day on the National Mall, 69 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 4: not knowing that it is actually home to a crypt. 70 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 4: And inside of the crypt is the body of a 71 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 4: person who I would like to tell you about, whose 72 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 4: story is a little bit. His story is relatively unknown 73 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 4: and intricately tied to the founding of the Smithsonium. 74 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: I don't know that couldn't have asked. I couldn't have 75 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: asked for a better set up. I have to be 76 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: honest with everybody here right now. I have not been 77 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: to a Smithsonian museum. I've only been to Washington, d C. 78 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: Twice in my life, once as a child where we 79 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: did like some tour type stuff and that did not 80 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: include the Smithsonian. And I went recently for the first 81 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: time as an adult and was just passing through. 82 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 3: We didn't have the time. 83 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: But after talking with you, I cannot wait to see 84 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: this this this this building that you're talking about. It 85 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: sounds epically fascinating and just sort of like it would 86 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: loom very large and be sort of a curiosity kind. 87 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 3: Of moment, like what is that? 88 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: And I'm excited to find out before I go take 89 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: a visit, so I can right believe that. 90 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: I know, I can't believe that we're going We're going 91 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: to It's had to be honest, my favorite. You know, 92 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: I go to d C not too infrequently, and it 93 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: is by far one of my favorite stops in a 94 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: city filled with wonders. We've gotta we've got to get 95 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: you there, so maybe we travel. We're scheduling this right 96 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: to travel irl as they say, maybe Lizzie, you can, 97 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: you can take us there through the cinema of the mind. 98 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 4: I would love to do that, I have to admit. 99 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 4: I So I go running on the National Mall every evening. 100 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 4: And did I tell you guys a story when we talk? Okay, 101 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 4: so I not every evening, let's be real, but as 102 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 4: many evenings as I can make myself, I go for 103 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 4: a jog down on the National Mall. It's great. It's 104 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 4: one of the great parts of living in DC. And 105 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 4: this one evening last spring, I was jogging back from 106 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 4: the Washington Monument toward the Capitol, past the Smithsonian Castle, 107 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 4: and there was like a little segue tour happening, and 108 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 4: the tour guide was saying something no offense but kind 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: of boring about like the amount of money that it 110 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 4: took to start the Smithsonian and this is the Smithsonian. 111 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 4: He was about to move on, and I was like, wait, 112 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 4: there's more to the story, and. 113 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 3: Oh, I go And then I just actually the tour guide. 114 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 4: I commandeered it. I was I was such a jerk. 115 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 4: And then I stood there like sweating, profusely gesticulating, telling 116 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 4: this story that I find so cool. And they were 117 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: all leaning for it on their segways, but not too 118 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 4: much or it would have been a disaster. And yeah, 119 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 4: and and I told this story, and afterward they all applauded, 120 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 4: and I ran off into the sunset. 121 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: And true, and I take my leave. I got my 122 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: favorite tour cameo ever. Fantastic. 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 4: I know it made me like the most annoying person 124 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 4: in the universe, but I cannot regret it. I just 125 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 4: don't regret it. 126 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: You're like the tour guide vigilante. 127 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: I think there's like a meme on the Internet where 128 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: Skeletor from the he Man Cartoons pops in and says 129 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: like an uncomfortable fact and they goes has a and 130 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: then he runs away, you know, kind of like that's 131 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: you and I often will commandeer a tour, uh in 132 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: that I will sort of piggyback on it, like if 133 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: I like I was recently in Boston walking around the 134 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: Freedom Trail and there was a dude dressed as Paul 135 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: Revere giving a tour of like this historic cemetery, and 136 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: me and my friend which kind of casually, you know, 137 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: sort of like shadowed them a little bit, like, you know, 138 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: we didn't pay for the tour. I don't know if 139 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: it was a paid tour, but we sort of, you know, 140 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: kind of stalked the tour. But you did the exact opposite, 141 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: or if it can be considered the opposite, I applaud you. 142 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: That is an act of patriotism right there. 143 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: Ah, thank you. I feel seen you should do well. 144 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: So let's definitely on segues. 145 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so let's get into some more of this lore. 146 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about this building. There's a secret crypt. 147 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: I know, we've got something of a mysterious package that 148 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: sort of starts the story. 149 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: Why don't we start there? 150 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: Maybe? 151 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 4: Yes, Okay, let's start there. So a few years ago, 152 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:52,239 Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, this package arrived at the Smithsonian Libraries 153 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 4: and Archives and it was the gift. It was an 154 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 4: anonymous donation. And so William Bennett, the conservator that I 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 4: spoke to in you know, inside Door we tell the story, 156 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 4: and William Bennett is one of the experts that I 157 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 4: spoke with directly, and it was his job to open 158 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 4: this up and figure out what it was. And it 159 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 4: was this pretty old document seventeen eighty seven, like only 160 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 4: a little bit younger than the United States. And it 161 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 4: was this bundle of like sixteen parchment pages that were 162 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 4: when he unfolded them, which took a while because he 163 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 4: had to sort of hydrate the pages because they're made 164 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: of animal skins and they were all crinkled and crackled together. 165 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 4: He discovered, I mean, unfolded, it's like the size of picture, 166 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 4: like a baby blanket, like a really like these are 167 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 4: big pieces of paper, and he estimated probably sixteen sheeps 168 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 4: worth of parchment. You know, you get like one piece 169 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 4: of parchment peep. 170 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yes, it's like a bolty we. 171 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: Now, Liszie, let's post here real quick. I imagine it 172 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: is not abnormal for the Smithsonian to receive all sorts 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: of interesting mail and solicited a. 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: Very interesting like yeah, Ben, no, it it occurs to me, 175 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: like it's just is this just like in a bubble mailer, Like, 176 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: how is how is this arriving? 177 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 3: You know, completely unannounced? 178 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: So Lizzie Treaty. Tell us first, is it unusual for 179 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian to receive this kind of correspondence or is 180 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: this like a semi frequent kind of thing. 181 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: It's pretty frequent that people will try to give their 182 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 4: things to the Smithsonian. 183 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: Dropping books off at a library. 184 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, bless your heart, we don't want your grandma's quilled. 185 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, we have some old furniture. Surely it, you know, 186 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 4: is a familion of national importance, you know, please take 187 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 4: it off our hands. So it is not a common babies, Yes, yes, 188 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 4: we've turned away. I don't know how many beanie babies 189 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 4: Linzelman in American history has probably turned away, but I'm 190 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 4: guessing a lot. So yeah, it's not uncommon that people 191 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 4: do offer their belongings. But I think what was noteworthy 192 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 4: about this document is that it was so old and 193 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 4: so important to the history of the Smithsonian, and that 194 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 4: I don't think anyone at the Smithsonian even knew it 195 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 4: existed until it showed. 196 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: I guess that's my thing though, you'd think there would 197 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 2: have been a call or someone would have set up 198 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 2: a handoff and not just sent this in the mail 199 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: like it just Yeah. 200 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 4: Let me be clear, I don't actually know. There may 201 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 4: have been a call. In my imagination, it was dropped 202 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 4: off like a you know, like a baby on the doorstep. Sure, 203 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 4: in the dead of night, swaddled up and yeah, exactly 204 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 4: that's how it happened in my imagination. In reality, it 205 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 4: may have been a little more bureaucratic. 206 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 3: But no, no, no, it's all coming out. We need 207 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: to leave them. 208 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 4: But the story's still good. The story's still Gooding this, 209 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 4: we're hydrating the sheep skin, we're opening it up. And 210 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 4: William he spends a lot of time looking at old 211 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 4: you know, legal ease, and he's expecting it to be 212 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 4: a lot of kind of hard to decipher ancient law language. Sure, 213 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 4: and he found inside drama fit for a masterpiece theater. 214 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 4: Like once he could decipher the swoopy script. It was 215 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 4: a story of squabbles and family feud that shed a 216 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 4: lot of light on the founding of the institution that 217 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 4: employs us. So, I don't know, how do you guys 218 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 4: want to hear the story? 219 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: Yes, please, okay, absolutely. 220 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 4: So to tell the story, we have to go back 221 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 4: to Georgian England seventeen hundreds, mid seventeen hundreds. We're in 222 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 4: the quiet countryside of Bath, England, where lived a woman 223 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 4: named Elizabeth Macy. And just to sort of set the 224 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: scene because it helps me think, like Jane Austen, Pride 225 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 4: and Prejudice era, this is what we're talking like high aristocracy. 226 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 4: Who you are and how you were, who to whom 227 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 4: you were born is all of great importance. So in 228 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 4: seventeen sixty four, Elizabeth Macy is living a comfortable life 229 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 4: in the quiet countryside of Bath, England. She's a widow. 230 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 4: Her husband had been dead for over a decade. I 231 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 4: think he died when she was in her twenties. When 232 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 4: she realizes that she is pregnant, and this is a 233 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 4: surprise because she's thirty six. So that's kind of old 234 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 4: for the times, especially at the time, especially at the 235 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 4: time I am thirty six. I want to specify, it's 236 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 4: not old now. 237 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: For the time, even today though, Like I have a 238 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 2: friend who just got pregnant who is about thirty seven 239 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: or thirty eight. 240 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 3: A doctor will say you need a little extra check. 241 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: It on. Oh yeah, it's just the thing. 242 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: So in these days this very likely could have been 243 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: a particularly difficult situation. 244 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 4: Yes, so she's thirty six, she's pregnant, her husband's been 245 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 4: dead for over a decade, and the father of this 246 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: child is the Duke of Northumberland. 247 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: Max, can we get a gasp? All right, perfect cantal? 248 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, by heavens, because to be a widow in 249 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: these days too was like almost a status where it's like, 250 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: you're supposed to just mourn your dead husband. 251 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 4: We're black and just never go outside. 252 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, just linger in the horizon of social events, on 253 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: the edge. 254 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: And say, staring off into the middle distance. 255 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: It also makes someone kind of a social I don't 256 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: want to say, an outcast, but on the fringe of 257 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: this pride and prejudice esque society we're. 258 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 4: Describing, right, you spend your time wandering your garden and 259 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 4: penning letters to your female friends. 260 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So. 261 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 4: Not only is the father the first Duke of Northumberland. 262 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 4: It gets worse. So the first Duke of Northumberland is married, 263 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 4: and he's married to Elizabeth's cousin. 264 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: Oh see, this is what happens when you have a 265 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: real small social circuit. 266 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 4: It's true. Yes, this is the hazard of a small 267 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 4: social circle. So so she's in a bit of a bind. 268 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 4: And to make matters worse, this is seventeen sixties England. 269 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 4: This is exactly when we see the rise of what 270 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 4: would today be called the tabloids. So there's this new 271 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 4: gossip magazine out there. It's called Town and Country, and 272 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 4: the Duke and Duchess of Northumberland are all over it. 273 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 4: People want to know what are their parties, like, what 274 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 4: are they wearing, who are they hanging out with, et cetera, 275 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 4: et cetera. So Elizabeth Macy is like, ye, Town and 276 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 4: Country cannot find out about this, God. 277 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: Forbid, this should be you know, an absolute pr nightmare. 278 00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: This is for the Duke anyway. 279 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: This is also the MySpace of their day, right, or 280 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: that's not a dated reference, but this is sort of 281 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: the social media, right, the public commons of communications. 282 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: So sort of, yeah, a peek into the lives of 283 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: the rich and famous and powerful. 284 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 4: Right absolutely, and the country, yes, the Town and the Country. 285 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 4: And remember there wasn't like a whole lot of TV 286 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: programming or other things going on at the time, so 287 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: people were really interested. So Elizabeth does what many many 288 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 4: women did at the time. And she goes off to 289 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 4: Paris to have her baby in secret, and it's a 290 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 4: boy named James, so she names him James Macy, after 291 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 4: her late husband. I guess just so that people who 292 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 4: are really bad at math will think that maybe he's legitimate. 293 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: And then she comes. 294 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: Back home clever girl. 295 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, and she raises James herself. And I think it's 296 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 4: relevant to say a little bit more about Elizabeth's family background, 297 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 4: which is what we were able to discover of her 298 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 4: through this document that showed up at the Smithsonian with 299 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 4: the bundle of court documents called the Hungerford Deed. Sheds 300 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 4: a lot of light into this particular family. So Elizabeth 301 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 4: and her family were descendants of prominent, wealthy medieval family 302 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 4: called the Hungerfords, and this document is called the Hungerford Deed. 303 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 4: They were really rich, they married into royalty, they owned 304 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 4: a lot of land. They were like the landed gentry. 305 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 4: But by the time our story takes place, their wealth 306 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 4: was sort of dwindling, and they had even had to 307 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 4: sell the family castle. I'm waiting for the gas. I'm 308 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: waiting for the gas. 309 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: The family castle exactly sell the other castle. 310 00:17:49,880 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 4: What would the other castle be, the neighbor's castle. 311 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: The cottage castle, you know what I mean, in the 312 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: equivalent of the Hampton's or whatever. 313 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 4: Yes, So the historian that I spoke with for this 314 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 4: episode calls this this whole phenomenon like the cult of ancestry. 315 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 4: You know, birthright was a huge deal and what you 316 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 4: inherited mattered a lot. So in seventeen sixty five, the 317 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 4: year that she gave birth to James, Elizabeth's brother died. 318 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 4: She had there were three of them. She had a 319 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 4: brother and a sister, and her brother being the man, 320 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 4: was you know, the heir to all of their wealth. 321 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 4: And he his name was Lumly Hungerford Keat And that's 322 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: first namely firstlum was his first name. 323 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 2: Do you think people called him lum for sure? Lee 324 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: Lummy Lee would have been good. 325 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 4: I think they called him lomlum That's cute, I'm behind. 326 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, super prestigious as well. It's better than Malay, I guess. 327 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: Lumly just really is a marble mouthed kind of name. 328 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: It's lovely, not have. 329 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: A good malg Lumly. 330 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: It is kind of a lumpy one. 331 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the word. 332 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 4: If he yeah. Well anyway, okay, so enough about him. 333 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: He died. Oh no, he died, and now we're making 334 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: fun of his name. 335 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 2: Yes, let's take a moment though, to mourn him and 336 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: then we'll move on. Okay, great, let's go. 337 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 1: Can we get Max? Can we get kind of like 338 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: a soulful R and B mournful? 339 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, mournful, soulful bois to men so hard to say 340 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 2: goodbye to yesterday? 341 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: Exact? Get out of my head, that's what I'm thinking. 342 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: But we don't have the we don't have the rights. 343 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 3: Sound alike. 344 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: We'll do sound alike to think. We can use our imaginations. 345 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: There's Max picked an incredible sound cure for this. 346 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: Fantastic Thank you so much, Max, and and Lizzie. For context, here, 347 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: in this period of time, this this part of the 348 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, it is unfortunately not uncommon to have a 349 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: sibling pass away, right in untimely manner, right. 350 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 4: Right, So this wouldn't have been so uncommon. Wait, are 351 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 4: you just belittling his death? Now? Are you? Like? It's sad? 352 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 4: But not that said, I have. 353 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: A personal vendetta every death. Reasons we're not going to 354 00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: explain because we're a family show. 355 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 4: Okay, so yeah, so it wouldn't have been that uncommon 356 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 4: that Lumley died, but what was uncommon was that he 357 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 4: had no will and no heirs, so there really wasn't 358 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 4: all of his all the family wealth just was sort 359 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 4: of dropped in the lapse of the two sisters, Elizabeth 360 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 4: and Henrietta, and they had to kind of figure out 361 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 4: what to do with it and how to divide it 362 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 4: between them. And that is the hunger Ford Deed, this 363 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 4: big old document that William Bennett parsed through. 364 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: Why do I keep hitting my head hearing the hunger 365 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: Games games. I know that's not what we're talking about, 366 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: but I just had to get it out there so 367 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: maybe it would stop, the voices would stop saying this 368 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 2: to me. 369 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 3: But please please carry on. I apologize. 370 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 4: I like it. It's it's got a cutthroat edge to 371 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 4: it that I think fit. 372 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: Because people are definitely there's some games being played here. 373 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie. 374 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: And so here we have an acrimonious legal battle, right. 375 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: Hungerford games, I think is a pretty good phrase for this. 376 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: Because Elizabeth and her sister Henrietta are suddenly landed right 377 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: in their own right. They've inherited a tragic windfall. But 378 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: they are far from the only living members of the family, right. 379 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: They are not the last of their line, which means 380 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: for anybody who's been in a similar situation in more 381 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: recent years, it means that people can come out of 382 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: the woodwork cousins you may not be too familiar with. 383 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 4: That was the case. So once Elizabeth and Henrietta realized 384 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 4: they had inherited these lands, the first thing they discovered 385 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 4: is that they had a bunch of cousins living on 386 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 4: their land and they had to boot them off the land. 387 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 4: So that didn't go over well with their cousins, and 388 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 4: thus began the first of many many lawsuits. There was 389 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 4: suing and counter suing and counter counter suing, but eventually 390 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 4: they got their cousins off their land, and they turned 391 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 4: and looked at each other and they're like, okay, now 392 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 4: we have to divide it between us. But the problem 393 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 4: was that it didn't divide evenly down the middle. So 394 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 4: they drew straws, and one of them was going to 395 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 4: get a bigger piece than the other. So Elizabeth drew 396 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 4: the short straw and Henrietta drew the long straw. She 397 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 4: got the bigger piece of land, and that meant that 398 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 4: she needed to pay Elizabeth the sum to kind of 399 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 4: make up for the difference, but she did not. 400 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: Oh so, now are they for another completely non dated reference, 401 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: Now are they in kind of a Highlanders situation? Like 402 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: the movie? Like you know, there can only be one, 403 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: can be only one? There we can be. 404 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 4: I haven't seen Highlanders, so. 405 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: I guess it's okay. That's not it has boiled. It's 406 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: not very good. We basically gave you the best part 407 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: of the film. 408 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: Sean Connery, though, does have an incredible outfit, but. 409 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: It's pretty bad earring. It's like his all right, that's 410 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: a different show. 411 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 2: It's also almost like Sean Connery is doing a bad 412 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 2: Scottish accent, which is like weird considering that Sean Connery 413 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: is in fact Scottish. But he's like really just chewing 414 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: the scenery in this but unrelated. 415 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: To today's story, but just a little. 416 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: We have to get in our Highlander dig in today's episode. 417 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: Right, we are contractually bound to do so, and we 418 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: drew the short straw on this episode. So this is 419 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: the one where we crack on Highlander and lovely And 420 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: it turns out that Elizabeth and Henrietta, despite being actual sisters, 421 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: do eventually after eliminating the rest of the families claims. 422 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: They do have this straw drawing situation and things go awry. 423 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: So they don't just solve this between sisters, do they 424 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,719 Speaker 1: take it back to the courts? 425 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 4: Well, at first, Elizabeth is pretty patient and she's like, hey, 426 00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 4: waiting for that check any day now, and Henriette is 427 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 4: I m m hmm, and then doesn't doesn't really respond 428 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 4: for a while, and they sort of go back and forth, 429 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 4: and Elizabeth kind of like, hey, you know, anytime you 430 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 4: wanted to give me that money, that'd be great, and 431 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 4: Henriette is like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then they know 432 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 4: she doesn't hear from her again, and so eventually Elizabeth 433 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 4: does sue her sister, and it's it. It is highly acrimonious, 434 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 4: and Henrietta doesn't even show up in court, and by 435 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 4: this time they're no longer speaking to each other, and 436 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 4: it's it's it's really what what William told me is that, 437 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 4: you know, reading through the document, it just gives you 438 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 4: a picture of the kind of woman that Elizabeth was, 439 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 4: and how she was described as litigious and haughty and 440 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 4: passionate and smart, and she got what she wanted and it. 441 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 2: Was not gonna lie. Really, you know plucky I would 442 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: add plucky in there, I don't. 443 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 4: So this is the this is the atmosphere that young 444 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 4: James is growing up in. He's watching his mother sue 445 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 4: everyone she knows and and over lands that are inherited 446 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 4: that he will never inherit because he is illegitimate. He 447 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 4: is the bastard son of a duke, and so he's 448 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 4: kind of he had a front row seat of the 449 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 4: importance of lineage in this rigidly hierarchical society, and his 450 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 4: own lack of a father had a huge impact on him. 451 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 4: It carried a stigma in a way that I think 452 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 4: it's hard for us even to fully understand in the 453 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 4: modern context. But as an example, when he enrolled at Oxford, 454 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 4: you had to sign this ledger book, and right next 455 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 4: to your name you wrote your father's name, and he 456 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 4: left his father's name blank. And for pages and pages 457 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 4: and pages before and after years and years and years, 458 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 4: not a single other person left that spot blank. So 459 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 4: it was like this glaring omission in this big book 460 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 4: of important and learned people. So that really it really 461 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 4: got to him and his illegitimacy was public knowledge, but 462 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 4: his paternity, like, he knew who his father was, everyone 463 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 4: knew he was illegitimate. Nobody knew who his father was really, 464 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 4: but he did. And Heather Ewing, the historian I spoke 465 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 4: with sort of we infer that he probably really hoped 466 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 4: that his father would recognize him before his death, maybe 467 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 4: at least acknowledged that he was his son, but he didn't. 468 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: So they didn't have you know, they didn't have a 469 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: familiar relationship. No, we'd consider them pretty much totally estranged. 470 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 4: Completely estranged. Yeah, I don't know that they ever even spoke. 471 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 4: I mean, there was no open acknowledgment that James was 472 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 4: the Duke's son ever. And when James was a young man, 473 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 4: his father died, and that was that there was no 474 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 4: chance of any kind of recognition or coming together. There 475 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 4: was no like bedside scene of you know, weeping in 476 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 4: each other's arms. 477 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: And we can add that to the adaptation, right, sure, 478 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: we just shoehorn one of those in and it seems 479 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: like it belongs. 480 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: Just a caption at the beginning that says, inspired by 481 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: a true story. 482 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: Gosh, well, after this baby reindeer Shenanigan, I don't think 483 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 2: anyone's ever going to say something was definitely a true story. However, 484 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: I think probably best to just say inspired by actual 485 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: events and just go from there. 486 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 4: Memory is subjective. Who can who completely agree? 487 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: We have a thing we call a ridiculous history cinematic universe. So, Lizzie, 488 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: we often in our heads are building out what the 489 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: film adaptation of this might look like. But in our 490 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: present day, our William Bennett is finding out about this 491 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: as he's reading this rehydrated sheepskin, and I imagine at 492 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: this point there has not been a film adaptation of 493 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: this strange story. 494 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 4: Not yet. But for those with funding and the interest, 495 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 4: come hither. 496 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: We're here to entertain all pitches. Yes, hold the phone, 497 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: said Alexander Brandell, joking a joke that will work earlier. 498 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is this is. 499 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: Part one of our exploration of the origin of the 500 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: Grand Smithsonian Institution with none other than the physical embodiment 501 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: of the Smithsonian. Host and producer of Side Door, Lizzie 502 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: Peabody and Noel we knew this was going to be 503 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: such an amazing time. And Max with the kids call 504 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: a banger yeah or a hoop nanny. I don't think 505 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: the kids. We know different kids there. So if you 506 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: if you had asked us, if you had you know, 507 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: been like Noel, Max, what's the story about the Smithsonian, 508 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: We couldn't really have told you, especially not near as 509 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: well as the actual experts at the Smithsonian. So this 510 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: is part one. Please tune in later in just a 511 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: few days for part two. And Noel, you know, we're 512 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: not exactly sure where we're gonna cut this, but I 513 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: think we're killing it. 514 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: So first of all, let us thank her said embodiment, 515 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: Lizzie Peabody for her time on the show. Thanks to 516 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: some producer Max Williams, Alex Williams, you Cobozar team. 517 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: And thanks of course to our own stuffy aristocrat Jonathan 518 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: Strickland aka the Quiztor. Thanks to aj Bahamas, Jacobs, Doctor 519 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: Rachel Big Spinach Lance Gonna have to find a street 520 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: name for Lizzie in a little bit, but maybe that's 521 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: for part two. Thanks to Chris Rossiotis E's Jeff Goat 522 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: here in spirit and Noel has always thanks to you 523 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: you as well, Ben. We'll see you next time, folks. 524 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, 525 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.