1 00:00:00,260 --> 00:00:27,610 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,630 --> 00:00:30,700 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always, so much 3 00:00:30,740 --> 00:00:32,620 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the myth, 4 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: the legend, our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. 5 00:00:36,580 --> 00:00:38,380 Speaker 2: I am here, and I am Mr. 6 00:00:38,450 --> 00:00:41,310 Speaker 1: Max Williams. And I am Ben Bowler. Is this your 7 00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:42,890 Speaker 1: new thing? I like this. I don't know. 8 00:00:43,350 --> 00:00:43,670 Speaker 3: I don't know. 9 00:00:43,690 --> 00:00:46,010 Speaker 1: We'll go with it. And I've been Bullen. That's Mr. 10 00:00:46,090 --> 00:00:50,110 Speaker 1: Noel Brown, as always. And Noel, a funny thing happened 11 00:00:50,190 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: on the way to podcast movement. We had an amazing 12 00:00:54,060 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: time meeting a lot of our friends, new and old, 13 00:00:57,500 --> 00:01:00,620 Speaker 1: a lot of colleagues. And during one of the panels 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: we did, we connected with a dream team that we've 15 00:01:04,740 --> 00:01:08,660 Speaker 1: talked about quite often in the history of this show. 16 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,140 Speaker 1: The Smithsonian Institution. 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 4: The very Smithsonian Institute. We encountered it in its human 18 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:19,170 Speaker 4: personified form at Podcast Movement. 19 00:01:20,050 --> 00:01:21,370 Speaker 1: And it was a delight. 20 00:01:21,709 --> 00:01:25,590 Speaker 4: And we are pleased to inform you Ridiculous Historians that 21 00:01:25,630 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 4: we have the actual human embodiment of the Smithsonian Institute 22 00:01:30,660 --> 00:01:32,260 Speaker 4: with us here on the podcast today. 23 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:32,900 Speaker 2: Ben, tell us more. 24 00:01:33,380 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: Yes, the rumors are true. The Smithsonian Institution's podcast, Side Door, 25 00:01:39,750 --> 00:01:44,010 Speaker 1: is helmed by the audio producer, storyteller, and senior producer, 26 00:01:44,390 --> 00:01:48,389 Speaker 1: Lizzie Peabody from Washington, D.C. And Lizzie, you are here 27 00:01:48,630 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: with us today. Holy smokes. Thank you so much for 28 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:52,669 Speaker 1: joining us. 29 00:01:52,740 --> 00:01:55,900 Speaker 3: Wow, you're welcome. I've never been introduced as the human 30 00:01:56,260 --> 00:01:59,980 Speaker 3: embodiment of an institution, and I feel heavier already. 31 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,780 Speaker 4: The pressure is indeed on because not only have we 32 00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 4: given you the most difficult to live up to honorific, 33 00:02:08,900 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 4: I guess, in our introduction of you, but we are 34 00:02:11,660 --> 00:02:15,500 Speaker 4: literally today talking about the very founding of the institution 35 00:02:15,580 --> 00:02:17,970 Speaker 4: in which you yourself personally embody. 36 00:02:18,210 --> 00:02:19,370 Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, indeed. 37 00:02:19,410 --> 00:02:21,490 Speaker 3: Which is a founding not many people know about. 38 00:02:21,970 --> 00:02:22,710 Speaker 1: I certainly didn't. 39 00:02:23,230 --> 00:02:25,410 Speaker 4: And, you know, when you think of the founding of 40 00:02:25,470 --> 00:02:29,870 Speaker 4: like an institution that, you know, is funded by an 41 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:32,250 Speaker 4: endowment and things like that, you don't really usually think 42 00:02:32,310 --> 00:02:35,530 Speaker 4: it's a sexy kind of exciting story. But you hipped 43 00:02:35,590 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 4: us to this story and we were fully on board 44 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 4: from the word go. 45 00:02:39,310 --> 00:02:40,940 Speaker 3: It is a sexy story. 46 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:43,620 Speaker 2: I mean, a little bit. 47 00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: It starts with sex. 48 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:45,419 Speaker 1: Yeah. 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 50 00:02:46,340 --> 00:02:50,820 Speaker 1: So could we get the the lay of the land here? 51 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:51,100 Speaker 3: I think. 52 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,020 Speaker 1: Most people are, before we dive in, I think most 53 00:02:54,080 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: people are familiar with the Smithsonian Institution. Could you tell 54 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,390 Speaker 1: us a little bit about Side Door and the mission 55 00:03:04,850 --> 00:03:06,530 Speaker 1: of this show and what it explores? 56 00:03:07,310 --> 00:03:16,780 Speaker 3: Yes, I would love to. Side Door is the Smithsonian 57 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:21,220 Speaker 3: Institution's podcast, meaning we broadcast stories from across the many 58 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: museums and research complexes, which currently is in the in 59 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 3: the 20s. There's, you know, the many museums, the National Zoo. 60 00:03:28,930 --> 00:03:31,950 Speaker 3: There's a lot of research centers as well. And so 61 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:35,130 Speaker 3: we get to tell stories of history, science, art and 62 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:38,990 Speaker 3: culture that you might miss on a typical trip to 63 00:03:39,010 --> 00:03:41,570 Speaker 3: the National Ball and a meander through one of the museums. 64 00:03:42,270 --> 00:03:46,290 Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. And that reminds me, you know, like you 65 00:03:46,310 --> 00:03:52,670 Speaker 1: said earlier, Noel, stories that people might miss. In an 66 00:03:52,830 --> 00:03:59,090 Speaker 1: episode of Side Door, you explore the origin story, the 67 00:03:59,180 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: genesis of the great Smithsonian, and it all begins with 68 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:05,700 Speaker 1: a guy named William Bennett. 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:07,650 Speaker 3: Yes, sort of. 70 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:09,110 Speaker 1: Sort of. 71 00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:12,210 Speaker 3: I mean, well, let me actually, can I, I just, 72 00:04:12,230 --> 00:04:15,130 Speaker 3: I just had an idea and I, let me just tell, like, okay, 73 00:04:15,170 --> 00:04:18,420 Speaker 3: so let me just say, you know, I think a 74 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: lot of people, when they think of the Smithsonian, they 75 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,780 Speaker 3: think a museum or maybe a few museums. But there 76 00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 3: is nothing more iconic than the red sandstone castle on 77 00:04:28,790 --> 00:04:31,909 Speaker 3: the National Mall. It's got turrets. It's got, like, it looks. 78 00:04:33,420 --> 00:04:37,260 Speaker 3: Old and important. And people walk by it every day 79 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,620 Speaker 3: on the National Mall, not knowing that it is actually 80 00:04:40,580 --> 00:04:43,060 Speaker 3: home to a crypt. And inside of the crypt is 81 00:04:43,100 --> 00:04:47,820 Speaker 3: the body of a person who I would like to 82 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 3: tell you about, whose story is a little bit, his 83 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:54,980 Speaker 3: story is relatively unknown and intricately tied to the founding 84 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 3: of the Smithsonian. 85 00:04:57,230 --> 00:04:58,270 Speaker 2: I don't know. 86 00:04:58,450 --> 00:05:00,510 Speaker 4: I couldn't have asked for a better setup because I 87 00:05:00,550 --> 00:05:02,970 Speaker 4: have to be honest with everybody here right now. 88 00:05:03,589 --> 00:05:07,550 Speaker 2: I have not been to a Smithsonian Museum. What? I've 89 00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:10,010 Speaker 2: only been to Washington, D.C. twice in my life. 90 00:05:10,529 --> 00:05:13,089 Speaker 4: Once as a child where we did like some tour 91 00:05:13,150 --> 00:05:15,090 Speaker 4: type stuff and that did not include the Smithsonian. 92 00:05:15,150 --> 00:05:15,750 Speaker 2: What? 93 00:05:15,970 --> 00:05:18,310 Speaker 4: And I went recently for the first time as an 94 00:05:18,370 --> 00:05:20,650 Speaker 4: adult and was just passing through and didn't have the time. 95 00:05:20,910 --> 00:05:24,100 Speaker 4: But after talking with you, I cannot wait to see 96 00:05:24,190 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 4: this building that you're talking about. It sounds uh, epically 97 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 4: fascinating and just sort of like it would loom very 98 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 4: large and be sort of a, a curiosity kind of moment. 99 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:34,700 Speaker 2: Like, what is that? 100 00:05:34,740 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 4: And I'm excited to find out before I go take 101 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,660 Speaker 4: a visit. Uh, so I can, I can't believe that. 102 00:05:39,940 --> 00:05:42,380 Speaker 1: I know it's true. I can't believe that we're going, 103 00:05:42,610 --> 00:05:46,390 Speaker 1: we're going, sorry. It's had to be honest. My favorite, uh, 104 00:05:46,570 --> 00:05:49,890 Speaker 1: you know, I go to DC not too infrequently and 105 00:05:50,029 --> 00:05:53,150 Speaker 1: it is by far one of my favorite stops in, 106 00:05:53,350 --> 00:05:56,620 Speaker 1: in a city filled with wonders. Uh, we've got a, 107 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,820 Speaker 1: We've got to get you there. So maybe we travel 108 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:05,260 Speaker 1: while we're scheduling this. Right. To travel IRL, as they say. Maybe, Lizzie, 109 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,390 Speaker 1: you can you can take us there through the cinema 110 00:06:08,450 --> 00:06:09,110 Speaker 1: of the mind. 111 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:12,710 Speaker 3: I would love to do that. I have to admit, 112 00:06:13,190 --> 00:06:17,180 Speaker 3: I so I go running on the National Mall every evening. 113 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:18,940 Speaker 3: And did I tell you guys this story? 114 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: When we talk? 115 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,940 Speaker 3: Okay. So I, not every evening, let's be real, but 116 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:26,020 Speaker 3: as many evenings as I can make myself, I go 117 00:06:26,050 --> 00:06:27,890 Speaker 3: for a jog down on the National Mall. It's great. 118 00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:29,610 Speaker 3: It's one of the great parts of living in DC. 119 00:06:29,750 --> 00:06:33,490 Speaker 3: And this one evening last spring, I was jogging back 120 00:06:33,550 --> 00:06:36,850 Speaker 3: from the Washington Monument toward the Capitol past the Smithsonian Castle. 121 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:40,780 Speaker 3: And there was like a little Segway tour happening. And 122 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 3: the tour guide was saying something, no offense, but kind 123 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 3: of boring about like, the amount of money that it 124 00:06:48,339 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 3: took to start the Smithsonian. And this is the Smithsonian. 125 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,100 Speaker 3: He was about to move on. And I was like, wait, 126 00:06:54,230 --> 00:06:57,950 Speaker 3: there's more to the story. And then, and then I just. 127 00:06:58,070 --> 00:07:02,289 Speaker 4: You actually, the segue toward poor guy, that. 128 00:07:01,730 --> 00:07:04,910 Speaker 3: Poor man, I commandeered it. I was, I was such 129 00:07:04,950 --> 00:07:08,729 Speaker 3: a jerk. And then I stood there like sweating profusely, gesticulating, 130 00:07:08,790 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: telling this story that I find so cool. And they 131 00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:13,660 Speaker 3: were all leaning forward on their segues, but not too much, 132 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:15,060 Speaker 3: or it would have been a disaster. 133 00:07:15,580 --> 00:07:16,380 Speaker 1: And yeah. 134 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,470 Speaker 3: And, um, And I told this story and afterward they 135 00:07:19,610 --> 00:07:22,370 Speaker 3: all applauded and I ran off into the sunset. 136 00:07:22,810 --> 00:07:28,710 Speaker 1: And I take my leave. This is really my favorite 137 00:07:28,740 --> 00:07:31,460 Speaker 1: tour cameo ever. This is fantastic. 138 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,060 Speaker 3: I know it made me like the most annoying person 139 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,900 Speaker 3: in the universe, but I cannot regret it. I just 140 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:37,540 Speaker 3: don't regret it. 141 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:40,500 Speaker 1: Oh, no, no, no, no. You're like the tour guide vigilante. 142 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,220 Speaker 4: I think there's like a meme on the internet where 143 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 4: Skeletor from the He-Man cartoons pops in and says like 144 00:07:47,700 --> 00:07:50,020 Speaker 4: an uncomfortable fact and then goes, huzzah! 145 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:51,740 Speaker 1: And then he runs away, you know, kind of like, 146 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: that's you. 147 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:56,300 Speaker 4: And I often will commandeer a tour in that I 148 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,670 Speaker 4: will sort of piggyback on it. Like if I, like 149 00:07:58,690 --> 00:08:01,690 Speaker 4: I was recently in Boston walking around the Freedom Trail 150 00:08:01,910 --> 00:08:04,210 Speaker 4: and there was a dude dressed as Paul Revere giving 151 00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:06,830 Speaker 4: a tour of like this historic cemetery and me and 152 00:08:06,850 --> 00:08:09,490 Speaker 4: my friend was kind of casually, you know, sort of 153 00:08:09,530 --> 00:08:10,810 Speaker 4: like shadowed them a little bit. 154 00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: Like, you know, we didn't pay for the tour. 155 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 4: I don't know if it was a paid tour, but 156 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:16,580 Speaker 4: we sort of, you know, kind of stalked the tour. 157 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: But you did the exact opposite, or if it. 158 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,540 Speaker 2: Can be considered the opposite, I applaud you. 159 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,510 Speaker 4: That is an act of patriotism right there. 160 00:08:23,910 --> 00:08:25,610 Speaker 3: Thank you. I feel seen. 161 00:08:26,490 --> 00:08:26,890 Speaker 1: You should. 162 00:08:26,930 --> 00:08:31,770 Speaker 4: Definitely on segues. So let's get into some more of 163 00:08:31,810 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 4: this lore. I mean, we're talking about this building. There's 164 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,059 Speaker 4: a secret crypt. I know we've got something of a 165 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,980 Speaker 4: mysterious package that sort of starts this story. 166 00:08:42,020 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: Why don't we start there, maybe? Yes. 167 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:48,410 Speaker 3: Okay, let's start there. So a few years ago, in 2019, 168 00:08:48,410 --> 00:08:53,770 Speaker 3: this package arrived at the Smithsonian Libraries and Archives. And 169 00:08:53,809 --> 00:08:58,620 Speaker 3: it was... the gift, it was an anonymous donation. And 170 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,819 Speaker 3: so William Bennett is the conservator that I spoke to in, 171 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 3: you know, Inside Door, we tell the story and William 172 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: Bennett is one of the experts that I spoke with directly. 173 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,260 Speaker 3: And it was his job to open this up and 174 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,260 Speaker 3: figure out what it was. And it was this pretty 175 00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:17,059 Speaker 3: old document, 1787, like only a little bit younger than 176 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,910 Speaker 3: the United States. And it was this bundle of like 177 00:09:21,910 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 3: 16 parchment pages that were When he unfolded them, which 178 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:28,300 Speaker 3: took a while because he had to sort of hydrate 179 00:09:28,350 --> 00:09:30,610 Speaker 3: the pages because they're made of animal skins and they 180 00:09:30,650 --> 00:09:36,530 Speaker 3: were all crinkled and crackled together, he discovered– I mean, unfolded, 181 00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:38,470 Speaker 3: it's like the size of– picture like a baby blanket, 182 00:09:38,510 --> 00:09:41,950 Speaker 3: like a really– like these are big pieces of paper. Mm-hmm. 183 00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: And he estimated probably 16 sheeps worth of parchment. You know, 184 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 3: you get like one piece of parchment per sheep. 185 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: Ah, 16 sheeps worth. 186 00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 3: Yes. 187 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,590 Speaker 1: Of course. It's like a bolt of fabric, you know. 188 00:09:55,730 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: to most people now lizzie let's pause here real quick 189 00:09:59,510 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: uh i imagine it is not abnormal for the smithsonian 190 00:10:04,220 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: to receive all sorts of interesting mail and unsolicited though that's. 191 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,340 Speaker 4: Very interesting like yeah ben no it occurs to me 192 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,849 Speaker 4: like It's just is this just like in a bubble mailer? 193 00:10:17,010 --> 00:10:19,620 Speaker 4: Like how is this how is this arriving, you know, 194 00:10:19,670 --> 00:10:21,300 Speaker 4: completely unannounced? 195 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:25,060 Speaker 1: Lizzie, can you tell us first, is it unusual for 196 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:28,260 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian to receive this kind of correspondence or is 197 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:31,910 Speaker 1: this like a semi frequent kind of thing or? 198 00:10:32,470 --> 00:10:35,229 Speaker 3: It's pretty frequent that people will try to give their 199 00:10:35,309 --> 00:10:36,429 Speaker 3: things to the Smithsonian. 200 00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:40,469 Speaker 1: Like dropping books off at a library. Yeah. Bless your heart. 201 00:10:40,490 --> 00:10:41,950 Speaker 1: We don't want your grandma's quilt. 202 00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:46,030 Speaker 3: Exactly. We have some old furniture. Surely it, you know, 203 00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:51,210 Speaker 3: is of national importance. You know, please take it off 204 00:10:51,250 --> 00:10:52,850 Speaker 3: our hands. So it is not uncommon. 205 00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:54,890 Speaker 1: Look upon my beanie babies in despair. 206 00:10:54,929 --> 00:10:58,750 Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. Yes, we've turned away. I don't know how 207 00:10:58,790 --> 00:11:01,620 Speaker 3: many Beanie Babies Brian Lintelman in American history has probably 208 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,380 Speaker 3: turned away, but I'm guessing a lot. So, yeah, it's 209 00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 3: not uncommon that people do offer their belongings. But I 210 00:11:09,059 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: think what was noteworthy about this document is that it 211 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,380 Speaker 3: was so old and so important to the history of 212 00:11:15,420 --> 00:11:18,740 Speaker 3: the Smithsonian and that I don't think anyone at the 213 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,239 Speaker 3: Smithsonian even knew it existed until it showed up. 214 00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:29,790 Speaker 1: I guess that's my thing, though. 215 00:11:29,830 --> 00:11:32,609 Speaker 4: You'd think there would have been a call or someone 216 00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:35,490 Speaker 4: would have set up a handoff and not just sent 217 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:36,890 Speaker 4: this in the mail. 218 00:11:37,070 --> 00:11:37,630 Speaker 1: Like it just. 219 00:11:37,890 --> 00:11:40,510 Speaker 3: Yeah. Let me be clear. I don't actually know. There 220 00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:43,410 Speaker 3: may have been a call. In my imagination, it was 221 00:11:43,450 --> 00:11:45,710 Speaker 3: dropped off like a, you know, like a baby on 222 00:11:45,730 --> 00:11:46,390 Speaker 3: the doorstep. 223 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:47,350 Speaker 1: Sure. 224 00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:51,500 Speaker 3: In the dead of night, swaddled up. Yeah, exactly. That's 225 00:11:51,540 --> 00:11:54,460 Speaker 3: how it happened in my imagination. In reality, it may 226 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: have been a little more bureaucratic, but. 227 00:11:57,260 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: No, no, no. 228 00:11:57,780 --> 00:11:59,020 Speaker 2: It's all coming out. 229 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:00,340 Speaker 1: We need to leave it to them. 230 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,070 Speaker 3: But the story is still good. The story is still good. 231 00:12:02,350 --> 00:12:04,990 Speaker 1: A million percent. So we're hydrating the sheepskin. 232 00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:08,130 Speaker 3: We're hydrating the sheepskin. We're opening it up. And William, 233 00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:11,130 Speaker 3: he spends a lot of time looking at old, you know, 234 00:12:11,929 --> 00:12:14,750 Speaker 3: legalese and he's expecting it to be a lot of 235 00:12:14,929 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 3: kind of hard to decipher ancient law language. And he 236 00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:26,740 Speaker 3: found inside drama fit for a masterpiece theater. Like once 237 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 3: he could decipher the swoopy script, it was a story 238 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:35,650 Speaker 3: of squabbles and family feud that shed a lot of 239 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:41,550 Speaker 3: light on the founding of the institution that employs us. So, um, 240 00:12:42,130 --> 00:12:43,970 Speaker 3: I don't know. Do you guys want to hear the story? 241 00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:45,670 Speaker 1: Yes, please. 242 00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:46,270 Speaker 3: Okay. 243 00:12:46,309 --> 00:12:47,170 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 244 00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:50,530 Speaker 3: So to tell the story, we have to go back 245 00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 3: to Georgian England, 1700s, mid-1700s. We're in the quiet countryside 246 00:12:58,179 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 3: of Bath, England, where lived a woman named Elizabeth Macy. 247 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,260 Speaker 3: And just to sort of set the scene, because it 248 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 3: helps me, think like Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice era. 249 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:12,150 Speaker 3: This is what we're talking, like high aristocracy era. Who 250 00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:15,670 Speaker 3: you are and to whom you were born is all 251 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:21,820 Speaker 3: of great importance. So in 1764, Elizabeth Macy is living 252 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: a comfortable life in the quiet countryside of Bath, England. 253 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,340 Speaker 3: She's a widow. Her husband had been dead for over 254 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,819 Speaker 3: a decade. I think he died when she was in 255 00:13:29,860 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: her 20s. When she realizes that she is pregnant. And 256 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,830 Speaker 3: this is a surprise surprise. Because she's 36. So that's 257 00:13:38,910 --> 00:13:40,230 Speaker 3: kind of old for the times. 258 00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: Especially at the time. 259 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:43,510 Speaker 3: Especially at the time. I am 36. I want to 260 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 3: specify it's not old now. 261 00:13:45,660 --> 00:13:48,620 Speaker 1: No ageism. We're not doing it. We're just saying for 262 00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: the time. 263 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 4: I do believe even today, though, like I have a 264 00:13:51,980 --> 00:13:56,099 Speaker 4: friend who just got pregnant who is about 37 or 38. 265 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:58,700 Speaker 2: A doctor will say you need a little extra. 266 00:13:58,900 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: Check it on. 267 00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. 268 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:00,780 Speaker 1: It's a thing. 269 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 4: So in these days, this very likely could have been 270 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 4: a particularly difficult situation. 271 00:14:05,820 --> 00:14:05,980 Speaker 1: Yes. 272 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 3: So she's 36. She's pregnant. Her husband's been dead for 273 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: over a decade. And the father of this child is 274 00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:16,599 Speaker 3: the Duke of Northumberland. What? 275 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:17,980 Speaker 1: Max, can we get a gasp? 276 00:14:20,340 --> 00:14:20,660 Speaker 3: All right. 277 00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:24,230 Speaker 1: Perfect. Scandal. Oh, my heavens. 278 00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:28,390 Speaker 2: Because to be a widow in these days, too, was like. 279 00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:31,470 Speaker 4: Almost a status where it's like you're supposed to just 280 00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:34,050 Speaker 4: mourn your dead husband like forever. 281 00:14:34,070 --> 00:14:36,890 Speaker 3: Wear black and just never go outside. 282 00:14:36,930 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 283 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:40,620 Speaker 1: Just linger in the horizon of social events on the 284 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:41,180 Speaker 1: edge of things. 285 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: Staring off into the middle distance. 286 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: And it also makes someone kind of a social, I 287 00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: don't want to say an outcast, but on the fringe 288 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:54,010 Speaker 1: of this Pride and Prejudice-esque society we're describing. 289 00:14:54,370 --> 00:14:56,930 Speaker 3: Right. You spend your time wandering your garden and penning 290 00:14:57,010 --> 00:14:59,250 Speaker 3: letters to your female friends. Yes. 291 00:14:59,290 --> 00:14:59,690 Speaker 2: Exactly. 292 00:15:00,670 --> 00:15:04,470 Speaker 3: So not only is the father the first Duke of Northumberland, 293 00:15:04,990 --> 00:15:08,340 Speaker 3: it gets worse. So the first Duke of Northumberland is 294 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,500 Speaker 3: married and he's married to Elizabeth's cousin. 295 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,020 Speaker 1: Oh, see, this is what happens when you have a 296 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: real small social circle. 297 00:15:18,180 --> 00:15:22,350 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes, this is the hazard of a small social circle. 298 00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:27,050 Speaker 3: So she's in a bit of a bind. And to 299 00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:30,710 Speaker 3: make matters worse, this is 1760s England. This is exactly 300 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: when we see the rise of what would today be 301 00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:38,060 Speaker 3: called the tabloids. So there's this new gossip magazine out there. 302 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 3: It's called Town and Country. And the Duke and Duchess 303 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 3: of Northumberland are all over it. People want to know, 304 00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:46,300 Speaker 3: what are their parties like? What are they wearing? Who 305 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,340 Speaker 3: are they hanging out with? Et cetera, et cetera. So 306 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,870 Speaker 3: Elizabeth Macy is like, yeesh. Town and country cannot find 307 00:15:51,930 --> 00:15:52,430 Speaker 3: out about this. 308 00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:53,650 Speaker 1: God forbid. 309 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:57,990 Speaker 4: This would be, you know, an absolute PR nightmare. 310 00:15:58,970 --> 00:16:01,810 Speaker 1: For the Duke, anyway. Yeah, this is also the MySpace 311 00:16:02,250 --> 00:16:06,260 Speaker 1: of the day, right? That's not a dated reference, but 312 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: this is sort of the social media, right? The public 313 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,060 Speaker 1: commons of communication. 314 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 4: It's sort of, yeah, a peek into the lives of 315 00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:17,710 Speaker 4: the rich and famous and powerful, right? 316 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:20,940 Speaker 3: Absolutely. The town and the Yes, the town and the country. 317 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,220 Speaker 3: And remember, there wasn't like a whole lot of TV 318 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 3: programming or other things going on at the time. So 319 00:16:26,020 --> 00:16:30,940 Speaker 3: people were really interested. So so Elizabeth does what many, 320 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,310 Speaker 3: many women did at the time. And she goes off 321 00:16:33,370 --> 00:16:37,290 Speaker 3: to Paris to have her baby in secret. And it's 322 00:16:37,330 --> 00:16:40,590 Speaker 3: a boy named James. So she names him James Macy 323 00:16:40,690 --> 00:16:43,730 Speaker 3: after her late husband, I guess, just so that people 324 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:45,550 Speaker 3: who are really bad at math will think that maybe 325 00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:48,030 Speaker 3: he's legitimate. And then she comes back home. 326 00:16:48,490 --> 00:16:51,420 Speaker 1: Clever girl. Yeah. 327 00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:54,250 Speaker 3: And she raises James herself. And I think it's relevant 328 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:57,030 Speaker 3: to say a little bit more about Elizabeth's family background, 329 00:16:57,130 --> 00:17:01,850 Speaker 3: which is what we were able to discover through this 330 00:17:02,350 --> 00:17:05,570 Speaker 3: document that showed up at the Smithsonian. With the bundle 331 00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:08,310 Speaker 3: of court documents called the Hungerford Deed sheds a lot 332 00:17:08,330 --> 00:17:12,260 Speaker 3: of light into this particular family. So Elizabeth and her 333 00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:16,980 Speaker 3: family were descendants of prominent, wealthy medieval family called the Hungerfords. 334 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,050 Speaker 3: And this document is called the Hungerford Deed. They were 335 00:17:21,070 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 3: really rich. They married into royalty. They owned a lot 336 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 3: of land. They were like the landed gentry. But by 337 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,260 Speaker 3: the time our story takes place, their wealth was sort 338 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: of dwindling and they had even had to sell the 339 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:38,010 Speaker 3: family castle. Oh, I'm waiting for the gas. I'm waiting 340 00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:39,370 Speaker 3: for the gas. Sorry, there was. 341 00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:41,070 Speaker 1: I gave it to you. I gave it to you. 342 00:17:41,090 --> 00:17:43,570 Speaker 1: I was just so astounded. You know, you get the 343 00:17:43,609 --> 00:17:44,790 Speaker 1: family castle. 344 00:17:44,850 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 345 00:17:45,619 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: Sell the other castle. 346 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. What would the other castle be? The neighbor's castle? 347 00:17:52,460 --> 00:17:53,419 Speaker 1: The other castle. 348 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: The guest castle? 349 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: The summer castle. The cottage castle. You know what I mean? 350 00:17:58,619 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: In the equivalent of the Hamptons or whatever. 351 00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: Yes. So the historian that I spoke with for this 352 00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 3: episode calls this whole phenomenon like the cult of ancestry. 353 00:18:08,460 --> 00:18:10,609 Speaker 3: You know, birthright was a huge deal and what you 354 00:18:10,650 --> 00:18:14,190 Speaker 3: inherited mattered a lot. So in 1765, the year that 355 00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:20,189 Speaker 3: she gave birth to James— Elizabeth's brother died. She had 356 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: there were three of them. She had a brother and 357 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 3: a sister and her brother being the man was, you know, 358 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,260 Speaker 3: the heir to all of their wealth. And he his 359 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: name was Lumley Hungerford Keat. 360 00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:33,180 Speaker 1: And that's his first name. Lumley is his first. 361 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 3: Lumley was his first name. 362 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,580 Speaker 2: Do you think people called him Lum for short or Lumley? 363 00:18:38,660 --> 00:18:39,780 Speaker 1: Lee would have been good. 364 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 3: I think they called him Lum Lum. 365 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:45,649 Speaker 1: That's cute. I'm behind. Yeah. Super prestigious as well. It's 366 00:18:45,670 --> 00:18:47,619 Speaker 1: better than I guess. 367 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 4: Lumley just really is a marble mouth kind of name. 368 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 4: It's not have. 369 00:18:52,540 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: A good mouth. 370 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 3: It is kind of a lumpy one. 371 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:55,180 Speaker 2: Yeah. 372 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:55,740 Speaker 1: Yeah. 373 00:18:55,780 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: That's the word. 374 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,379 Speaker 3: If you. Yeah. Well, anyway. OK, so enough about him. 375 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:00,980 Speaker 3: He died. Oh, no. 376 00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: He died. And now we're making fun of his name. 377 00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 3: Yes. 378 00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:06,419 Speaker 2: Let's take a moment, though, to mourn him and then 379 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: we'll move on. 380 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,700 Speaker 1: OK, great. Let's go. Can we get Max? Can we 381 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,820 Speaker 1: get kind of like a soulful R & B mournful? 382 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:14,980 Speaker 3: Yeah, mournful. 383 00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:17,730 Speaker 2: Boys to men, it's so hard to say goodbye to yesterday. 384 00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:19,830 Speaker 1: Exactly. Get out of my head. That's what I'm thinking. 385 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:23,510 Speaker 1: But we don't have the rights. A sound alike will do. 386 00:19:23,810 --> 00:19:24,970 Speaker 1: A sound alike will do. 387 00:19:25,550 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 2: We can use our imaginations. Max picked an incredible sound 388 00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: cue for this moment. 389 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Max. And Lizzie, for context here, 390 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,210 Speaker 1: in this period of time, this part of the 18th century, 391 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: it is unfortunately not uncommon to have a sibling pass away, right? 392 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,350 Speaker 1: In an untimely manner. Right, right. 393 00:19:47,410 --> 00:19:49,949 Speaker 3: So this wouldn't have been so uncommon. Wait, are you- 394 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 3: you just belittling his death now? Are you like, it's sad, 395 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 3: but not that sad? 396 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,820 Speaker 1: I have a personal vendetta against Lumley for reasons we're 397 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,700 Speaker 1: not going to explain because we're a family show. 398 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,020 Speaker 3: Okay. So yeah, so it wouldn't have been that uncommon 399 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 3: that Lumley died. But what was uncommon was that He 400 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:12,300 Speaker 3: had no will and no heirs. So there really wasn't 401 00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:15,820 Speaker 3: all of his all the family wealth just was sort 402 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,619 Speaker 3: of dropped in the laps of the two sisters, Elizabeth 403 00:20:18,660 --> 00:20:20,459 Speaker 3: and Henrietta. And they had to kind of figure out 404 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,460 Speaker 3: what to do with it and how to divide it 405 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: between them. And that is The Hungerford Deed, this big 406 00:20:26,980 --> 00:20:29,750 Speaker 3: old document that William Bennett parsed through. 407 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 4: Why, why do I keep in my head hearing the 408 00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 4: hunger games, the hunger for games? I know that's not 409 00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:45,100 Speaker 4: what we're talking about, but I just had to get 410 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 4: it out there. So maybe I would stop. The voices 411 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 4: would stop saying this to me, but please, please carry on. 412 00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:51,330 Speaker 2: I apologize. I like it. 413 00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:54,060 Speaker 3: It's, it's got a cutthroat edge to it that I 414 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 3: think does fit. 415 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,950 Speaker 2: Because people are definitely, there's some games being played here. 416 00:20:59,170 --> 00:20:59,910 Speaker 2: I'm not going to lie. 417 00:21:00,369 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: And so here we have, uh, an acrimonious legal battle, right? 418 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: Hungerford Games, I think, is a pretty good phrase for 419 00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:16,500 Speaker 1: this because Elizabeth and her sister, Henrietta, are suddenly landed, right, 420 00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:21,730 Speaker 1: in their own right. They've inherited a tragic windfall, but 421 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:26,830 Speaker 1: they are far from the only living members of the family, right? 422 00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:30,150 Speaker 1: They are not the last of their line, which means 423 00:21:30,170 --> 00:21:33,210 Speaker 1: that For anybody who's been in a similar situation in 424 00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:36,419 Speaker 1: more recent years, it means that people can come out 425 00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:39,980 Speaker 1: of the woodwork. Cousins you may not be too familiar with. 426 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 3: That was the case. So once Elizabeth and Henrietta realized 427 00:21:44,260 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 3: they had inherited wood, these lands, the first thing they 428 00:21:47,010 --> 00:21:49,330 Speaker 3: discovered is that they had a bunch of cousins living 429 00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:51,430 Speaker 3: on their land and they had to boot them off 430 00:21:51,470 --> 00:21:54,530 Speaker 3: the land. So that didn't go over well with their cousins. 431 00:21:54,650 --> 00:21:58,370 Speaker 3: And thus began the first of many, many lawsuits. There 432 00:21:58,410 --> 00:22:01,409 Speaker 3: was suing and counter suing and counter counter suing. But 433 00:22:01,450 --> 00:22:04,729 Speaker 3: eventually they got their cousins off their land and they 434 00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:06,629 Speaker 3: turned and looked at each other and they're like, OK, 435 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,100 Speaker 3: now we have to divide it between us. But the 436 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,380 Speaker 3: problem was that It didn't divide evenly down the middle. 437 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 3: So they drew straws and one of them was going 438 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,590 Speaker 3: to get a bigger piece than the other. So Elizabeth 439 00:22:18,770 --> 00:22:21,290 Speaker 3: drew the short straw and Henrietta drew the long straw. 440 00:22:21,670 --> 00:22:24,469 Speaker 3: She got the bigger piece of land. And that meant 441 00:22:24,510 --> 00:22:26,330 Speaker 3: that she needed to pay Elizabeth a sum to kind 442 00:22:26,369 --> 00:22:29,780 Speaker 3: of make up for the difference. But she did not. 443 00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:35,740 Speaker 1: Oh, so now are they for another completely non-dated reference? 444 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: Now are they in kind of a Highlander situation? Like 445 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:41,139 Speaker 1: the movie, like, you know, there can only be one. 446 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,700 Speaker 1: There can be only one. There we go. 447 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:45,570 Speaker 3: I haven't seen Highlander, so. 448 00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:47,629 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's okay. 449 00:22:47,710 --> 00:22:48,750 Speaker 2: It's not very good. 450 00:22:48,790 --> 00:22:50,950 Speaker 1: We basically gave you the best part of the film. 451 00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:54,630 Speaker 4: Sean Connery, though, does have an incredible outfit. 452 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,020 Speaker 1: But an obnoxious earring. It's pretty bad. The earring is 453 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,389 Speaker 1: pretty egregious. It's like his All right. That's a different show. 454 00:23:02,450 --> 00:23:05,270 Speaker 4: It's also almost like Sean Connery is doing a bad 455 00:23:05,369 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 4: Scottish accent, which is like weird considering that Sean Connery 456 00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 4: is in fact Scottish. But he's like really just chewing 457 00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 4: the scenery in this. But unrelated to today's story, but 458 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 4: just a little. We have to get in our Highlander 459 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,500 Speaker 4: dig in today's episode. 460 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,010 Speaker 1: Right. We are contractually bound to do so. And we 461 00:23:23,050 --> 00:23:25,270 Speaker 1: drew the short straw on this episode. So this is 462 00:23:25,290 --> 00:23:28,810 Speaker 1: the one where we crack on Highlander. And Lumley. And 463 00:23:28,850 --> 00:23:33,330 Speaker 1: it turns out that Elizabeth and Henrietta, despite being actual sisters, 464 00:23:34,050 --> 00:23:40,250 Speaker 1: do eventually, after eliminating the rest of the family's claims, 465 00:23:40,630 --> 00:23:46,850 Speaker 1: they do have this straw drawing situation and things go awry. 466 00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:51,130 Speaker 1: So they don't just solve this between sisters? Do they 467 00:23:51,619 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: take it back to the courts? 468 00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:56,659 Speaker 3: Well, at first, Elizabeth is pretty patient and she's like, hey... 469 00:23:57,420 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: waiting for that check any day now. And Henrietta's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 470 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: And then doesn't really respond for a while. And they 471 00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:07,220 Speaker 3: sort of go back and forth. And Elizabeth's kind of like, hey, 472 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: you know, anytime you wanted to give me that money, 473 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,850 Speaker 3: that'd be great. And Henrietta's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And 474 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,409 Speaker 3: then they don't, she doesn't hear from her again. And 475 00:24:13,430 --> 00:24:19,070 Speaker 3: so eventually, Elizabeth does sue her sister. And it is 476 00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:23,030 Speaker 3: highly acrimonious. And Henrietta doesn't even show up in court. 477 00:24:23,090 --> 00:24:25,010 Speaker 3: And by this time, they're no longer speaking to each other. 478 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:28,510 Speaker 3: And it's It's really what William told me is that, 479 00:24:28,530 --> 00:24:30,850 Speaker 3: you know, reading through the document, it just gives you 480 00:24:30,910 --> 00:24:34,889 Speaker 3: a picture of the kind of woman that Elizabeth was 481 00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:38,699 Speaker 3: and how she was described as litigious and haughty and 482 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,700 Speaker 3: passionate and smart. And she got what she wanted. And 483 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:43,420 Speaker 3: it was. 484 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:48,690 Speaker 4: It was a Jane Austen character. Not going to lie. Really, 485 00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:51,050 Speaker 4: you know, plucky. I would add plucky in there. 486 00:24:51,070 --> 00:24:51,790 Speaker 1: I don't know why. 487 00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:55,420 Speaker 3: So this is the this is the atmosphere that. young 488 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 3: James is growing up in. He's watching his mother sue 489 00:24:58,310 --> 00:25:01,609 Speaker 3: everyone she knows and over lands that are inherited that 490 00:25:01,670 --> 00:25:05,230 Speaker 3: he will never inherit because he is illegitimate. He is 491 00:25:05,290 --> 00:25:08,230 Speaker 3: the bastard son of a duke. And so he's kind 492 00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:11,990 Speaker 3: of he had a front row seat of the importance 493 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:17,590 Speaker 3: of lineage in this rigidly hierarchical society. And his own 494 00:25:17,630 --> 00:25:20,379 Speaker 3: lack of a father had a huge impact on him. 495 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 3: It carried a stigma in a way that I think 496 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,530 Speaker 3: it's hard for us even to fully understand in the 497 00:25:27,550 --> 00:25:31,150 Speaker 3: modern context. But as an example, when he enrolled at Oxford, 498 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,300 Speaker 3: you had to sign this ledger book and right next 499 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 3: to your name, you wrote your father's name. And he 500 00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 3: left his father's name blank. And for pages and pages 501 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 3: and pages before and after, years and years and years, 502 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 3: not a single other person left that spot blank. So 503 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,620 Speaker 3: it was like this glaring omission in this big book 504 00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:54,620 Speaker 3: of important and learned people. So that really, it really 505 00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 3: got to him. And his illegitimacy was public knowledge, but 506 00:25:58,660 --> 00:26:02,550 Speaker 3: his paternity, like he knew who his father was. Everyone 507 00:26:02,590 --> 00:26:07,570 Speaker 3: knew he was illegitimate. Nobody knew who his father was, really, 508 00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:13,220 Speaker 3: but he did. And Heather Ewing, the historian I spoke with, 509 00:26:14,260 --> 00:26:18,100 Speaker 3: sort of, we infer that he probably really hoped that 510 00:26:18,140 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 3: his father would recognize him before his death, maybe at 511 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,530 Speaker 3: least acknowledge that he was his son. But he didn't. 512 00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:30,250 Speaker 1: So they didn't have, you know, they didn't have a 513 00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: familiar relationship. No. We consider them close. Pretty much totally estranged. 514 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 3: Completely estranged. 515 00:26:36,580 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. 516 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 3: I don't know that they ever even spoke. I mean, 517 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,020 Speaker 3: there was no open acknowledgement that James was the Duke's 518 00:26:42,220 --> 00:26:47,379 Speaker 3: son ever. And when James was a young man, his 519 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,609 Speaker 3: father died. And that was that there was no chance 520 00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:53,609 Speaker 3: of any kind of recognition or coming together. There was 521 00:26:53,650 --> 00:26:57,810 Speaker 3: no like bedside scene of, you know, weeping in each 522 00:26:57,850 --> 00:26:58,710 Speaker 3: other's arms and. 523 00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:01,790 Speaker 2: Well, we can we can add that to the adaptation. 524 00:27:02,170 --> 00:27:02,410 Speaker 3: Right. 525 00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:02,690 Speaker 1: Sure. 526 00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:02,890 Speaker 3: Right. 527 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: We can shoehorn one of those in. It seems like 528 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:06,700 Speaker 2: it belongs. 529 00:27:06,940 --> 00:27:09,930 Speaker 1: Just a caption at the beginning that says inspired by 530 00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:10,869 Speaker 1: a true story. 531 00:27:11,170 --> 00:27:13,330 Speaker 4: Gosh, well, after this baby reindeer shenanigans, I don't think 532 00:27:13,410 --> 00:27:15,930 Speaker 4: anyone's ever going to say something was definitely a true 533 00:27:15,970 --> 00:27:20,190 Speaker 4: story ever again. I think probably best to just say 534 00:27:20,250 --> 00:27:23,860 Speaker 4: inspired by actual events and just go from there. 535 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 3: Memory is subjective. 536 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: Who are we to say? I completely agree. 537 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:27,859 Speaker 3: Yes. 538 00:27:29,530 --> 00:27:34,609 Speaker 1: We have a thing we call a ridiculous history cinematic universe. So, Lizzie, 539 00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:37,570 Speaker 1: we often in our heads are building out what the 540 00:27:37,609 --> 00:27:43,619 Speaker 1: film adaptation of this might look like. But in in 541 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: our present day, our William Bennett is finding out about 542 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,780 Speaker 1: this as he's reading this rehydrated sheepskin. And I imagine 543 00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:58,460 Speaker 1: at this point there has not been a film adaptation. 544 00:27:58,930 --> 00:27:59,970 Speaker 1: of this strange story. 545 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 3: Not yet. But for those with funding and the interest, 546 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:05,540 Speaker 3: come hither. 547 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,379 Speaker 1: We're here to entertain all pitches. Yes. Hold the phone, 548 00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:15,650 Speaker 1: said Alexander Graham Bell, a joke that will work earlier. Ahoy, ahoy. 549 00:28:15,790 --> 00:28:16,290 Speaker 3: Ahoy, ahoy. 550 00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:17,810 Speaker 1: Stop it, Ben. 551 00:28:18,090 --> 00:28:19,250 Speaker 2: Oh, my God. 552 00:28:19,369 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: Get out of my head. This is part one of 553 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,899 Speaker 1: our exploration of the origin of the Grand Smithsonian Institution 554 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,110 Speaker 1: with none other than the physical embodiment of the Smithsonian Museum. 555 00:28:31,859 --> 00:28:35,820 Speaker 1: host and producer of Side Door, Lizzie Peabody. And Noel, 556 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: we knew this was going to be such an amazing time. 557 00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 3: And Max. 558 00:28:40,380 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: What the kids call a banger. 559 00:28:42,350 --> 00:28:42,570 Speaker 3: Yeah. 560 00:28:42,770 --> 00:28:46,430 Speaker 1: Or a hoot nanny. I don't think the kids do that. 561 00:28:46,450 --> 00:28:51,350 Speaker 1: We know different kids. So if you had asked us, 562 00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:55,870 Speaker 1: if you had been like Ben, Noel, Max, what's the 563 00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:59,969 Speaker 1: story about the Smithsonian? We couldn't really have told you. 564 00:29:00,430 --> 00:29:04,209 Speaker 1: especially not near as well as the actual experts at 565 00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:08,130 Speaker 1: the Smithsonian. So this is part one. Please tune in 566 00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:12,530 Speaker 1: later in just a few days for part two. And Noel, 567 00:29:13,130 --> 00:29:14,890 Speaker 1: you know, we're not exactly sure where we're going to 568 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: cut this, but I think we're killing it. 569 00:29:18,210 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 4: So first of all, let us thank Her said embodiment, 570 00:29:20,740 --> 00:29:23,940 Speaker 4: Lizzie Peabody, for her time on the show. Thanks to 571 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 4: Super Producer Max Williams, Alex Williams, who composed our theme. 572 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,490 Speaker 1: And thanks, of course, to our own stuffy aristocrat, Jonathan Strickland, a.k.a. 573 00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:36,690 Speaker 1: The Quister. Thanks to A.J. Bahamas, Jacobs, Dr. Rachel Big 574 00:29:36,750 --> 00:29:40,500 Speaker 1: Spinach Lance. gonna have to find a street name for 575 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: lizzie uh in in a little bit uh but maybe 576 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,500 Speaker 1: that's for part two uh thanks to chris rossiotis use 577 00:29:47,540 --> 00:29:50,300 Speaker 1: jeff coat here in spirit and noel as always thanks to. 578 00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: You on you as well ben we'll see you next 579 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:53,870 Speaker 2: time folks 580 00:30:01,340 --> 00:30:04,170 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 581 00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.