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Speaker 1: Welcome the Trillions. I'm Joel Weber and I'm America Cultures. Eric.

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Speaker 1: Where you coming to us from today? I am live

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Speaker 1: from the thirtieth three station in Philadelphia, Uh, famous for

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Speaker 1: when they see film the last scene of Trading places.

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Speaker 1: UM actually on my way up to New York or

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Speaker 1: a client panel discussion at three thirty. And this is

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Speaker 1: the only way we can pull us off to accommodate

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Speaker 1: the great Katie Garifeld. So in the first you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be sitting on the ground at a train station for

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Speaker 1: us as we record trillions where it's really like the

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Speaker 1: world is in war mode right now, Eric, if if

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Speaker 1: you're if, it's come to this UM, and there's some

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Speaker 1: significant events that have been happening in ets that we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about on today's episode. What's been happening? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's been pretty wild. Like you know, e T s

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Speaker 1: are are like cockroaches. I mean, they can trade through anything,

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Speaker 1: and they have even when the underlying is frozen. But

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Speaker 1: we had a situation with Russia where the underlying was

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Speaker 1: frozen effectively and then also the e t F stopped trading.

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Speaker 1: That's a new one. We've really never seen that before.

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Speaker 1: It's really an important one to discussed because where does

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Speaker 1: the sleeve investors and what should you think about going forward?

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Speaker 1: And then the other one is b x X, which

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Speaker 1: is a fixed et N, which is Barclay's halted creations

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Speaker 1: on that which it's still trades, but without creations, arbitrage

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Speaker 1: is basically destroyed. And so the price d v H

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Speaker 1: and the n A V and that causes problems and

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Speaker 1: that we've seen before. That's sort of a classic. I'm

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Speaker 1: a big bank, I don't feel like offering this anymore.

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Speaker 1: Let me just all creations and that's annoying. I think.

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Speaker 1: I think there are two different situations, but they both

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Speaker 1: speak to this idea of when the E t F

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Speaker 1: stops uh doing what it does and I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: broken is the right word, but becomes impaired. Uh you know,

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Speaker 1: how does that work? What happens? Joining us will be

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Speaker 1: Key d Grindfield of Bloomberg News. She's also the co

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Speaker 1: host of the newly launched relaunched E t F i

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Speaker 1: Q Show as well as David Nodded with E t

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Speaker 1: F Trends, this time on trillions. When E t F

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Speaker 1: s stop working, Katie Dave Welcome back to the program.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Thanks for having me too. I

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Speaker 1: feel bad, Eric that you had to change things around

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Speaker 1: to accommodate me because I don't have a lot of answers. Listen,

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Speaker 1: you're very busy, and you look I am happy to

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Speaker 1: accommodate you. You just don't look comfortable. Well I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm sitting Indian style on marble and I'm about

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Speaker 1: four feet from a dunkin Donuts kitchen. So but this

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Speaker 1: is natural habitat for Eric. He kind of is back

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Speaker 1: in the day. Maybe you're gonna have to stretch your

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Speaker 1: hip flexors after. Can I just say one quick thing

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Speaker 1: about dunkin Donuts pretty pandemic. I would get the same

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Speaker 1: breakfast here and then two years pasted because the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and then, as you mentioned, e t F I two started.

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Speaker 1: I came back here on Monday two years later, got

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Speaker 1: the same thing and it was actually a hair cheaper.

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Speaker 1: Although somebody asked me to weigh the food. I was like,

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Speaker 1: come on, I don't think. I don't think they're doing that,

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Speaker 1: but I think don't donut. That's why the popular I

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Speaker 1: think they are able to be more efficient. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: interesting tidbits there. I could say many things, and we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna ignore that and move on. Um Katie, can

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Speaker 1: we start with you what has been happening, because you've

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Speaker 1: basically been on the front lines of the past few

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Speaker 1: weeks as as all of these things have transpired, it's

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Speaker 1: been pretty wild. I mean, it's been a roller coaster

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Speaker 1: a few weeks, and I feel like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the action has been centered on a bunch of e

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Speaker 1: t f s that aren't trading anymore. All of these

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Speaker 1: um US listed Russian focused e t f s. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the Van Neck Russia et F was sort of where

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Speaker 1: all of this action was concentrated. But I mean, as

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Speaker 1: Eric alluded to, none, none of these et fs virtually,

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Speaker 1: I think that's correct, are trading anymore. But before that happened,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you saw a lot of flows into these funds.

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Speaker 1: It's unclear whether that was a create to lens situation,

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Speaker 1: people trying to short it. You also saw options volume

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Speaker 1: take off on a lot of these funds, including a

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Speaker 1: fund I think it was a direction fund that announced

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Speaker 1: that it would liquidate and it was a leverage fund.

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Speaker 1: And you saw again options contracts just explode in volume,

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Speaker 1: which we now know, and I'm sure we'll get into

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Speaker 1: it's unclear whether those holders will actually be paid out. Okay, Eric,

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Speaker 1: One of the e t F s that we want

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Speaker 1: to focus on is called r s X, which is

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Speaker 1: the van X Russia e t F. What happened with

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Speaker 1: that one? Yeah, essentially actually RSX and all of the

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Speaker 1: politic creations, that's not that abnormal. Back ten years ago

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Speaker 1: the Egypt et F pltic creations, when the stock exchange

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Speaker 1: was closed for like two months, we've seen the before.

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Speaker 1: We figured, oh, they'll just trade through. But the difference

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Speaker 1: here is this is serious government stuff sanctions. Also, the

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Speaker 1: stocks stopped trading, the g d rs on those stocks

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Speaker 1: stopped trading, and it became a much more like the

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Speaker 1: e t F was thrust into a geopolitical situation, which

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Speaker 1: it wasn't in the Egypt case. And so I'll actually

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Speaker 1: turn over to Dave because what was different this case

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Speaker 1: is the exchanges nicely and cbo E said we're not

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Speaker 1: actually gonna get trade it either, and that was new.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen that. Normally e t s trade through anything,

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Speaker 1: even if the underlying is frozen, and nobody writes about

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Speaker 1: mechanics and busted mechanics better than Dave, So I would

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Speaker 1: like to get his take on just what he saw

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Speaker 1: and what he thinks, uh, sort of happened behind the scenes. Well, well,

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Speaker 1: Joel was sort of saying before we got started that

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Speaker 1: you only have me on when the car crash happens.

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Speaker 1: So it does feel a little bit like that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're right that this time was very different, and really

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Speaker 1: it comes down to the sanctions. I think if you

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Speaker 1: want to trace it all the way back, it's not

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Speaker 1: so much that the moss Go Exchange closed for business,

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Speaker 1: because that's as you pointed out, that happened in Greece,

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Speaker 1: that happened in Egypt. But in both those cases there

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Speaker 1: was a really legitimate expectation that those markets would reopen,

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Speaker 1: they might price differently, right, that the Arab spring could

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Speaker 1: have gone a couple of different ways. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think anybody was expecting that somehow, you know, all of

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Speaker 1: the companies listed, we're going to disappear. What happened with

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Speaker 1: the sanctions kind of created this, I think, this cascading problem,

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Speaker 1: which is once it became impossible for the Russian companies

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Speaker 1: to actually do business as securities anymore, meaning that they

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Speaker 1: could pay dividends, that they could pay their their bond servicing,

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. When that became a problem, it

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Speaker 1: was really just a ticking time bomb for when the

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Speaker 1: LS the London Stock Exchange would effectively have to suspend

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Speaker 1: the g d rs and the vast majority of Russian

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Speaker 1: stocks that people trade trade in London as g drs,

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Speaker 1: not in New York as a d r s, and

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Speaker 1: not in Moscow directly. So once that happened, which was

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Speaker 1: almost instantaneous, that in the early round of sanctions, that

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Speaker 1: it was going to be impossible for these companies to

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Speaker 1: actually do business as global public securities. UM. I actually

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Speaker 1: think they've waited about a day late. I predicted on Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: two weeks ago that they would actually um either delist

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Speaker 1: or suspend the g d r s. They haven't actually

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Speaker 1: delisted them yet. I think that will be the next

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Speaker 1: you to drop, at which point those no longer become

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Speaker 1: investible securities, regardless of whether the market reopens if they

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Speaker 1: get delisted off the LC. So with no underlying security

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Speaker 1: that anybody had faith in anymore, you know, pausing for

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Speaker 1: halting creations and that you basically had to do that

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Speaker 1: because there was no way to roll up a basket

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Speaker 1: of securities anymore to do a creation and then the

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Speaker 1: suspension of trading. That really comes down to the obligation

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Speaker 1: of the exchanges themselves to ensure that they can make

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Speaker 1: orderly markets. Right, That's that's there on the hook for

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Speaker 1: that if they let something trade knowing that it's going

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Speaker 1: to be you know, hitting the limit up, limit down

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Speaker 1: every eight seconds all day long because nobody has any

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Speaker 1: idea how to deal with pricing that is on exchange

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Speaker 1: a little bit, so you know, we didn't get it

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Speaker 1: completely synchronized. I think RSX closed for trading a day

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Speaker 1: after E r U S. But but fundamentally you end

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Speaker 1: up in the same position, which is you have uninvestable markets.

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Speaker 1: That's what's different this time, Dave. And the pantheon of problems,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of how I think about you. You're

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be the red phone on the desk now

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Speaker 1: for trillions and the pantheon of problems. Where do you

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Speaker 1: rank this in terms of et F history? Oh predates right,

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Speaker 1: So the last time we can point to anything like

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Speaker 1: this um is either Cuba or ran both before you know,

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Speaker 1: both in the seventies and eight in the sixties prior

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Speaker 1: to that, um, which was the last time we actually

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Speaker 1: had the opportunity to look at the market and say,

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Speaker 1: this just might not exist when we get out the

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Speaker 1: other side of this crisis. UM. Now, I actually don't

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Speaker 1: think we end up in a world where they actually

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Speaker 1: just obviate all foreign ownership in Russia. But that's on

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Speaker 1: the table. They're already talking about taking over local assets

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Speaker 1: of foreign companies that have pulled out. I think it's

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Speaker 1: really just a matter of time before they say and

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Speaker 1: we're also obviating for ownership of the of the companies themselves,

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Speaker 1: at which point, literally those stocks go to zero, right,

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Speaker 1: those properties get written to nothing, which is incidentally what

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Speaker 1: happened in Iran, and it is what happened in Cuba,

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Speaker 1: which were the only two times in history I guess

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen and Russia again. Uh, those the only times

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Speaker 1: in history that I know that this has happened. So

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Speaker 1: it pre dates the et F structure. So if I'm

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Speaker 1: a shareholder and I'm looking at that, this seems really bad. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you're sitting here with RSX in your SWAB account

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Speaker 1: right now, Uh, the very very high likelihood is that

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Speaker 1: you're going to get some very small percentage of your

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Speaker 1: money back when RSX finally closes, when they finally liquidated

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Speaker 1: it um, and you know it does have some cash.

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Speaker 1: They did what they could to raise what money they

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Speaker 1: could while those markets were still trading. But at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, the price you see, you know,

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Speaker 1: the price you last saw, is pretty close to what

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Speaker 1: you might get, probably even less. Uh. And you know,

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Speaker 1: as we as you guys mentioned in the beginning, I

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Speaker 1: actually can't even predict what they're going to do with

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Speaker 1: the options market, because that's crazy, because the options market

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Speaker 1: now has no way to settle. You mentioned a word,

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Speaker 1: their liquid It's a big scary word, and I was

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Speaker 1: going to ask, I mean, how does this end, these

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Speaker 1: these e t f s where where trading has been halted,

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Speaker 1: Can that be unhalted or do you see this ending

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Speaker 1: eventually in liquidation. I only think that you'll see the

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Speaker 1: Russian e t f s resume normal trading when you

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Speaker 1: see the underlying markets resume normal trading. And I'm very,

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Speaker 1: very skeptical that that's going to happen for US investors.

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Speaker 1: For for a forty act fund um. I actually think

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Speaker 1: it is more likely at this point that those markets

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Speaker 1: become truly uninvestable, and that even should Moscow reopen, the

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Speaker 1: London will have to delist all those securities on the

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Speaker 1: GDR market and nobody's gonna want to own the underlying s.

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Speaker 1: E R U S had a lot of the direct underlyings.

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Speaker 1: They moved in the last couple of days to put

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Speaker 1: more of the A d r s and g d

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Speaker 1: rs on the books. But even if that reopens, at

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Speaker 1: this point, it won't have I don't think we'll have

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Speaker 1: those securities on the books any more. I think it'll

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Speaker 1: be mostly cash. So let's say I hold r s X.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people actually bought it after all this happened.

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Speaker 1: Let's say they're training at three or four dollars. They

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Speaker 1: bought it at five six whatever it was low. It

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Speaker 1: was four months ago, so it's they're looking, Hey, it's

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Speaker 1: a bargain you own that. E t F. Wouldn't you

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Speaker 1: rather just have everybody sitting limbo until something gets resolved,

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Speaker 1: even if that's two or three years, rather than really

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Speaker 1: get nothing. Yeah, I don't think you'll see them just

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Speaker 1: decide like next Thursday, to roll up the fund. I

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Speaker 1: do think you'll you'll see both. I mean, really, we're

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Speaker 1: just talking about black Rock and Van Neck here. I

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Speaker 1: think you'll see them. Wait until there's a shoe going

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Speaker 1: to drop right, whether either we you know, pass a

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Speaker 1: piece of legislation that makes this permanent in terms of

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Speaker 1: the sanctions, or Moscow does something to sort of obviate ownership,

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Speaker 1: or the l s D lists all the g d

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Speaker 1: r s, one of those kinds of events I think

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Speaker 1: has to happen first. You're right right now, Today is

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Speaker 1: not a day to close down this fund and hand

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Speaker 1: everybody back a buck on their dollar, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: a buck on their fifty dollar investment or whatever's left over. Um,

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Speaker 1: why why would you do that? So one thing I

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Speaker 1: think is you need to be a little cautious of though,

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Speaker 1: is I think the idea that these are somehow cheap

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Speaker 1: lottery tickets is really dumb. Like I don't think that

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Speaker 1: you can look at the price of gas Prom when

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Speaker 1: it reopens as some universal lottery ticket, because all assets

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Speaker 1: must eventually be worth something. I think we're seeing a

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Speaker 1: big shift in the fundamental economic order that's going on.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's a that's a bad call. Russia

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Speaker 1: is not the land of meme stock, No, I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. So on the lottery tickets ideas, I remember

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Speaker 1: reporting on the fact that you saw that huge explosion

247
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Speaker 1: both input and call volume, and it was described to

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Speaker 1: me as just that cheap lottery tickets. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: assuming that e t f s hadn't stopped working, I mean,

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Speaker 1: especially for those put contracts, I mean it seems like

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Speaker 1: they would have paid off though that actually that wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been such a bad lottery ticket. Oh and I mean, Eric,

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Speaker 1: you wrote about this the other day, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's actually a fairly substantial put heavy position that's due

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Speaker 1: to settle what tomorrow I think on Thursday. I think

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Speaker 1: that's right, nineties six million dollars or something like that,

257
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Speaker 1: most of it on the put side that that should

258
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Speaker 1: be in the money, Like to your point, that should

259
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Speaker 1: be a lot of that should be in the money.

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Speaker 1: But because the o c C changed how they're doing

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Speaker 1: the settlement where it's now I think has to be directed,

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Speaker 1: meaning you have to go in and say yes, I'm

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Speaker 1: willing to do I think a cash settlement on this um.

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Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of folks that are

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Speaker 1: gonna let these expire with the opportunity to have gotten

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Speaker 1: money out of them, and and that's gonna that's problematic.

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Speaker 1: That's not on like van AK, that's kind of on

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Speaker 1: the O C C or CBO maybe, but like even there,

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Speaker 1: we are in pretty untested territory. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: tough to point fingers. By the way, Dave, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the Barclay's of UH fund. That's v xx and e

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Speaker 1: t N. What's different about that circumstance than the rs

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Speaker 1: X one. Yeah, so totally different way that E T

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Speaker 1: s UM sort of broke down a little bit over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, so um vxx for very

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Speaker 1: different reasons. Vxx is an exchange trade note i E.

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Speaker 1: It's a piece of bank debt issued by Barkley's Bank,

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Speaker 1: tracking first and second month volatility futures. It's the most

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Speaker 1: popular e T F where E T P I should

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Speaker 1: say tracking volatility. It's sort of the traders darling sitting

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Speaker 1: on about a billion dollars um and they suspended creations

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Speaker 1: on it, which we've seen over and over again from

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Speaker 1: E t N issue wers over the last decade um

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Speaker 1: to the point where you know, I know you guys,

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Speaker 1: now give it a you know, a red a red

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Speaker 1: traffic light in every situation. Um. And this is one

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Speaker 1: of the big reasons, because it is a little bit

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Speaker 1: of you know, a fit of peak that the bank

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Speaker 1: can just decide they have too much risk on the

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Speaker 1: books and decide to stop issuing new shares, which causes

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Speaker 1: premium spikes, which is exactly what we've seen in v

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Speaker 1: x X. It's exactly what Credit Suite did to t

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Speaker 1: VX uh basically a decade ago. Uh. And in that case,

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Speaker 1: they just led a trade to a premium until they

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Speaker 1: got comfortable again, and then they issued a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of shares out of inventory and in my opinion, somewhat

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Speaker 1: feloniously probably booked the profit on that because they were

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Speaker 1: actually issuing out of the market at a high price. UM.

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Speaker 1: Let me jump in here, because uh, these banks, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you're right, they do it almost when they want, and

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Speaker 1: that's what's annoying. In this case. Barclays did give some

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Speaker 1: logic they said, well, we've run out of issuance capacity,

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Speaker 1: but if you look at the documents, they are not

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Speaker 1: out of issuance capacity. They have plenty of runway left.

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Speaker 1: And so some speculated it's about hedging costs some who

306
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Speaker 1: speculated that somebody made a clerical error with the structure

307
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Speaker 1: products and this is sort of part of that fallout.

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Speaker 1: There's also a theory that it could be the canary

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Speaker 1: and a deeper problem with their books. Uh, and somebody

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Speaker 1: that management is just like, stop everything, what's your take on,

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Speaker 1: what's really going on behind the scenes? Who pulled the

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Speaker 1: plug and why? Well, so there are rumors on I

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Speaker 1: mean I heard those rumors too, that there was sort

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Speaker 1: of a blow up in some structure product issuance that

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Speaker 1: had to get delayed. Um, and that puts some strain

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Speaker 1: on the risk desk. And remember in the in the

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Speaker 1: sort of a post Dodd Frank world, banks have to

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Speaker 1: actually manage their overall risk pretty carefully. And so every

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Speaker 1: bank has somebody whose job it is to pay attention

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Speaker 1: to how much VEGA exposure do we have, right, how

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Speaker 1: much long equity exposure do we have, how much international

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Speaker 1: currency exposure do we have? And in most cases they're

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Speaker 1: monitoring that literally in real time to make sure that

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Speaker 1: the bank doesn't get over at skis SKIS because they're

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Speaker 1: considered you know, important institutions by regulators around the world. Um,

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Speaker 1: so it is not unlikely that somebody looked at their

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Speaker 1: book and said, we have way too much long ball

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Speaker 1: exposure on our book for the given volatility environment. Even

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Speaker 1: though all of the E t N value of that

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Speaker 1: was offset by an exactly equal liability in the E

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Speaker 1: t N, that doesn't matter. That doesn't get to be

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Speaker 1: counted because that's just considered short term paper on the book.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot there's an asset liability miss match

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Speaker 1: in terms of how banks have to account for these things.

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Speaker 1: So it's not inconceivable they just got over their skis

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Speaker 1: on risk. The sort of canard they put up of

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00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,040
Speaker 1: well we ran out of share issuance, that does happen

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Speaker 1: like I mean, we know for a fact, for instance,

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Speaker 1: that US Commodities Funds ran into this on U s

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Speaker 1: O and I think on U n G a few

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Speaker 1: times where they literally just didn't file to issue new

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Speaker 1: new shares. Unlike an e t F, a commodity spooler

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00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 1: in E t N can only sell the shares it's

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00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 1: it's actually registered with the exchange, and when they run

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Speaker 1: out of those, they have to file for more and

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Speaker 1: pay a decent amount of money. So every time they

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00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:37,879
Speaker 1: file for one of these extensions. It's like a hundred

348
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: and fifty grand to put a bunch of new shares

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Speaker 1: up on the books. Now, it's possible for them to

350
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Speaker 1: reuse shares that have been redeemed, but most banks don't,

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Speaker 1: and I don't believe either Credits Weeks or Barkleys does.

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Speaker 1: So when we look at and say, oh, well, there's

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Speaker 1: thirty three e t N three million e tns outstanding

354
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Speaker 1: and they've got coverage for fifty the problem is if

355
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Speaker 1: there has been a hundred million dollars in creations and

356
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Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars and redemptions, they don't get to

357
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 1: count that again, so they actually sort of use up

358
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Speaker 1: only one side of the balance sheet when they're issuing.

359
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,119
Speaker 1: We don't actually know. You can't really impute it because

360
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 1: the creation redemption numbers are net so we don't get

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Speaker 1: to really see the creation redemption. We get to see

362
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Speaker 1: the net um. But I suspect either they let that

363
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,879
Speaker 1: happen on purpose to get out of this business, or

364
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Speaker 1: the risk desk turned them down. Something that caught my

365
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,359
Speaker 1: eye with this v x X situation is just the

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Speaker 1: ripple effects that it could have for the volatility market,

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Speaker 1: largely because I don't know. You might look at the

368
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Speaker 1: size of v x x and say, okay, it's like

369
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Speaker 1: nine million dollars. That's big, but it's not systemically big.

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00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: But Goldman actually put out a note yesterday noting that

371
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,840
Speaker 1: if you look at the options market that surrounds v

372
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: x x, uh the share a count of options is

373
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: about or rather, the outstanding options on v xx are

374
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Speaker 1: roughly six times v x x is actual share account.

375
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Speaker 1: That is more than double the ratio of all but

376
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Speaker 1: two e t f s, which is pretty amazing. Mean,

377
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 1: it just speaks to that a lot of these volatility

378
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 1: e t F c t N s, they're used as

379
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 1: trading tools for a lot of these volatility players. And

380
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,200
Speaker 1: I mean what this means for the liquidity. I mean,

381
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,400
Speaker 1: how could that options market around vxx be liquid if

382
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,000
Speaker 1: this e t N isn't really trading or wears are halted,

383
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,479
Speaker 1: it's still trading, right right, So so the share creation

384
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: just means that it's going to disconnect from its fair

385
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,920
Speaker 1: value and it's mostly going to trade at a premium.

386
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 1: But to your point, you're right, like, the options complex

387
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 1: around v xx is huge, and a lot of big

388
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,120
Speaker 1: hedge funds use that on a very dynamic basis what

389
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,640
Speaker 1: you're what, what you're seeing, if you're to monitor fin

390
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 1: twit vol folks, the trader community there you're talking, you're

391
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of talking about moving to other vehicles,

392
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 1: moving to other ways of expressing those opinions about VEGA.

393
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 1: But that that options expiration cycle, both in the VXX

394
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 1: and really in the spy options and and the and

395
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,639
Speaker 1: the in the futures, like that really impacts volatility in

396
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: pricing right the voulu you know, the whole sort of

397
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 1: vallpenning around opex is a very real phenomenon. It's less

398
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: of an issue in the VIXED complex than it is

399
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 1: directly in the underlying indexes. But you're right, like this

400
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 1: is it's a lot of shifting around of where that

401
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: exposure is going to come from. In that shifting around

402
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,160
Speaker 1: create the opportunities for hiccups. Um. One of the aspects

403
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 1: of this is people who short the x X. So

404
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 1: last we look, there was about fifty of the shares

405
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:32,120
Speaker 1: were held short the all creations, and man, you've gotta

406
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: be they screwed them over because let's say your short

407
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,679
Speaker 1: this all of a sudden, it starts creeping up because

408
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 1: other people who are short start covering, well they have

409
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: they can't do creations. They gotta buy vxx open market.

410
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,119
Speaker 1: That really starts to lift the price quickly, and then

411
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: you panic you can start to cover. So all of

412
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 1: a sudden, you're basically it's it's a you're in a

413
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,880
Speaker 1: race to just basically make sure you don't lose too much.

414
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 1: Could they like sue the company because that's that's really

415
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: the product not working as designed. Uh, not that anybody

416
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: has these sympathy for short sellers, but they really they

417
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 1: made a fair bet and they got they're getting screwed

418
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 1: over interest. It was at six according to market numbers.

419
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 1: That's you basically just described the two fift t VIX

420
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: lawsuit right, which when you know what they got sued

421
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: for there, which was you know, we didn't you know,

422
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 1: manage the product correctly and therefore reliable to cred suits

423
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: won that lawsuit. So so, whether they morally should have

424
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 1: or not, they won the lawsuit because they had appropriately

425
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: disclosed everything they needed to disclose. I guarantee you that

426
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: Barclays is pretty much in the same boat. Everybody learned

427
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: that lesson that this is a get out of jail

428
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: free card. Um which is again why you guys put

429
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: a red light on this thing, right, because this is

430
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 1: always an option to your point about like all those

431
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 1: people who were short, and whether they're screwed or not.

432
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: You know, I guess the one thing against that would

433
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 1: be that there are other products out there, right, so

434
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: you know their BIXI exists, right, There is comparable beta

435
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: exposure available. It's not that difficult to roll up sort

436
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: of at the hedge fund level, and exposure that looks

437
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: just like vxx. So if you're short, you know at

438
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 1: premium you can actually cover your beta on that completely

439
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: just by buying vixie or by putting together your own

440
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: rolling portfolio of those things. So I don't think that

441
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 1: there's a systemic issue with that short position being there,

442
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: but there's no question if you're sitting there on the

443
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: short side, you have a really tough decision to make.

444
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: Do you cover up and make it worse or do

445
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: you just hang on for dear life, noting that eventually

446
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: this thing will crash back down to earth. What would

447
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: you do? I get the heck out of it, like,

448
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: I mean, it's I mean, I got a lot of

449
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: questions from people like, oh, how do I play this

450
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: premium blah blah blah blah blah, and it's like there

451
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: are billions of dollars in very sophisticated hedge funds waiting

452
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: for you to try, just desperate for you to try

453
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 1: to play this, Mr individual investor. By the way, sometimes

454
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: I tweet about this and most people have the sort

455
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: of understandable reaction, like call what it means, but really

456
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. Tenth reply is like, oh, I'm loving this.

457
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're doing, but they just some

458
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: people just love when Like are they financial journalists because this, Yeah,

459
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: that's true. These would be like people with like thirty

460
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,719
Speaker 1: five followers. I think they're like, they're definitely a day

461
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: trade there. There there is a there. I absolutely have

462
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: seen the tweets from folks that we're using VXX in

463
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: sophisticated vall hedge fund strategies precisely because they knew this

464
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: could happen. Right, This was actually a feature, not a bug,

465
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 1: because it only goes one way. Right, there's nothing you

466
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: can do to be XX to make it traded at discount.

467
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: Like that's not that's not how the real world works,

468
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: and that would be unprecedented in the e t F world.

469
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: But you know, taking something that's an e t N

470
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: having a pop to a crazy premium, that's free money

471
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 1: for the folks that were smart enough to realize this

472
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 1: is just a hanging chad over e t N s

473
00:23:54,359 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: every day. If you were the SEC or you know

474
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: somebody that control over this, where all the banks you

475
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: could tell them, would you advise or regulate them to

476
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: get out of the E t M business once and

477
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: for all? Or is it okay to have this sort

478
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: of graded our district where this can happen over and over.

479
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,239
Speaker 1: You just live with it because, um, you know, if

480
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: there's a market, hey, let people trade it. What do

481
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 1: you think it's time to just get them out? Uh?

482
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: What I'd rather see is for them to allow forty

483
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: act structures to effectively create the same types of things

484
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: like a lot of the pro shayers leverage and inverse funds,

485
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: for instance, are just straight up forty act funds because

486
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: they got in under the wire and they let them

487
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: manage them that way. There's no reason you have to

488
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: put this exposure into an e t N. This exposure

489
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 1: could very easily be in a straight up CFTC regulated

490
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: commodities pool. Um So in this case, I don't see

491
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: any reason for the e t N to exist. Uh.

492
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: And the SEC has been I mean they've paid attention.

493
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: Like I mean, over every couple of years, the SEC

494
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: turns the eye of we're on towards the E t

495
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 1: N market and waves their finger a little bit, you know,

496
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: And to be fair, we are now down to a handful.

497
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I remember Eric, you know, ten

498
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: years ago there were dozens and dozens and dozens of

499
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 1: all those E tracks E t N s that didn't trade,

500
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: and like I mean, it was just it was a

501
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: real littered field of garbage that you know, all had

502
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: two million dollars in it never closed. Most of that's

503
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: finally thankfully gone away. Um. But yeah, at this point,

504
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: I would just think that it's better to shut these

505
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: things down. I'm not sure anybody's really getting great exposure

506
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: out of them anymore. And if you want this kind

507
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: of exposure is a wealthy investor. This is what structure

508
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: products are for. Literally, these kinds of patterns of returns.

509
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: Just one more wonky question. And the reason for using

510
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: E t N over E t F told the same

511
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: thing like fix or oil, is that the E t

512
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: N is taxed in a way that's a little more

513
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: like a stock, whereas the E T S holds futures

514
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: and taxation isn't as ideal, So is it is? The

515
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: E t N popularity really just largely about this tax loophole,

516
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: or I should say tax uh standardization with other ets.

517
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: I think it's two things. So, yes, the fact that

518
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: they're treated as prepaid forward contracts ie they get text

519
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: just like stock. That was a big selling point back

520
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: in the day, particularly around commodities E T N S

521
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: before we actually had a lot of the commodities pool

522
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: ones out there. Um. I think that's largely obviated now

523
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: because we've got great no K one commodity ETF and

524
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. Um. The the other one

525
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: is frankly perfect tracking. Right. So the great thing about

526
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: VXX if you're a vaultrator running a very tight quantitative strategy,

527
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: is that you know what the indicative value is to

528
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: the penny and it never varies. Right, It's mathematically guaranteed.

529
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: When there was a viable creation redemption mechanism and it

530
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: was trading spot on, I have all the time. That's valuable.

531
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: And this is a complex strategy with a daily roll.

532
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of opportunity for friction and miss

533
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: on this. So having it in a perfect tracking vehicle

534
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: like an et N makes a lot of sense. Dave.

535
00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: One of the things that I just wanted to ask

536
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: you here was interesting what you said about E t

537
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: N S anything else that this episode has revealed that

538
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: the market needs to be talking about more openly and

539
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: consider changes or is this kind of business as usual

540
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: in worst case scenarios. It feels pretty business as usial

541
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: in worst case scenarios. I mean, we'd really do need

542
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: to make clear that this was a conversation in two chapters.

543
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: What's going on in v x x UH and the

544
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: other barklays et N that's shut, which is O I

545
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: l um. That is an extraordinarily unique thing to e

546
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: t N s issued by the two big banks that

547
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: really still issue e t N s um and it

548
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: is the most problematic edge of the EXTREMEE traded product landscape.

549
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: That has nothing to do with what's going on in Russia,

550
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: even though we are talking about suspended you know, creations

551
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: in both cases, what's going on in Russia strikes me

552
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: as a little bit more like a two year flood.

553
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: I I would not have expected to see this in

554
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: my lifetime, and I don't particularly expect to see it

555
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: again in my lifetime because it requires, you know, literally

556
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: the overnight turning of a major economic player into a

557
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: pariahs state. I don't think we're going to see that

558
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: again in the next twenty years. I hope. Right. Well,

559
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: you've bring up the emergency markets, so we didn't really

560
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: get to that. But like you know, this is why

561
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: the cold emerging I mean, they are dangerous. The governments,

562
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: some of them authoritarian. I will say this is probably

563
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: you know, we've had first toll on her F R,

564
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: D M, E TF talk about in et F. It

565
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: keeps getting justified and justified. No China, no Turkey. It

566
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: really is true. All the problems are from governments with authority,

567
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 1: authoritarian sort of you know, not dictators, but just governments

568
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: can just do whatever they want. Um, it's an interesting

569
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: time for that fund. I think it would probably grow

570
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: after this. But I do think the emerging markets, especially

571
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: with China, it's gonna get it now. China is going

572
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: to be even bigger in e M, and I don't know,

573
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: I can feel like the whole emerging markets complex or

574
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: it gets unbundled or shifted around. I don't know this.

575
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: Do you think this is a game changing moment. I

576
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: think I've already said they're they're killing the acronym brick

577
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: at some point. Yeah. I I'm not a big fan

578
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: of the idea of bricks or bicks anyway, but but yeah,

579
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: I think this puts a spotlight on what we mean

580
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: by emerging markets. I think a lot of people, particularly

581
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: financial advisors, have treated e m as as a monolithic bucket. Right.

582
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: It's just a pattern of returns you put in the

583
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: corner of your portfolio. You put eight percent in it,

584
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: and everybody's happy. Um. And what we're learning is, though

585
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: there's a huge difference between Russia, China, India, Brazil and

586
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: all of the other emerging markets, they're all individually very unique. UM.

587
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Perth product f R d M.

588
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a really great way to to to

589
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: spin this UM. But I think what we also saw

590
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: was when we all the major emerging markets ets had

591
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: to pull Russia out because the index providers called those

592
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 1: market Russia uninvestable. Again, there was a lot of I

593
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: think legitimate hand ringing there that the optionality of whether

594
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: or not those Russian stocks might someday be worth something

595
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: was being taking out of the hands of an existing

596
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: e e M or vw OH shareholder. That's a legit complaint,

597
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: but it's a complaint about indexing and that and I

598
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: think that's a really important thing if you're in an

599
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: actively managed emerging markets mutual fund right now, they must exist.

600
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: I can't think I went off the top of my head.

601
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: Whether or not you were in Russia is a choice

602
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: that your PM made, right so that like you voted

603
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: for that PM with your dollars. I don't think most

604
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: people who just threw money into EM or v w

605
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: OH spent a lot of energy thinking about whether they

606
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 1: were enough foot see or MSc I index and what

607
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: was going to happen on you know, whether this country

608
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: was going to get in or out. You know, we

609
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: talked about it when countries, you know, try to get

610
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: into the emerging markets, but like this is a big

611
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: getting out and that's been you know, a long time coming.

612
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: We haven't seen that before, all right, Dave. Usually I

613
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: asked for favorite tickers. We've done that before with you. Um,

614
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: I want to ask you what's your favorite E M ticker. Well,

615
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean I already said it Freedom f r d

616
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: M Alpha architect Freedom one hundred. I get that right.

617
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: I don't even remember if I got the name of

618
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: the fund right, but it's that far d M and

619
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: it's the only, it's really the only interesting emerging markets

620
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: fund out there. It's the only one doing something really different. Dave, Katie,

621
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us on Trillians. Thank you, thank you.

622
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can

623
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

624
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: and wherever else woul you'd like to listen. We'd love

625
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel

626
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: Webber Show. He's at aer Fultunice. This episode of Trilliance

627
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesca Levi is the head

628
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg podcast Fight