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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, you know James Haffa. His middle name is Riddle.

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Speaker 2: I did not know that.

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Speaker 3: I don't think any of us did.

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Speaker 1: But it's a bit weird, right Jimmy to his friends.

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa is one of the most well known historical

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Speaker 1: figures in these United States, and on July thirtieth, nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five, he disappeared.

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Speaker 4: Yes he did, Yes he did. Lot's been said about

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Speaker 4: mister Haffa. A lot, A lot of allegations have come

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Speaker 4: out about people around Jimmy Hoffa. It's a it's a

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Speaker 4: murky story, let's say, and lots has been made about

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Speaker 4: his life and his disappearance in movies such as Haffa

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Speaker 4: and Well it was contemporary to I guess twenty nineteen

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Speaker 4: when we originally made this episode The Irishman.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot about The Irishman. I'm still baffled

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Speaker 1: about the depth of investigation and the lack of official

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Speaker 1: results in this one. Someone conspired for this guy to disappear,

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Speaker 1: and in tonight's classic episode spoiler, folks, we hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoy it, but we also hope you contact us directly

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Speaker 1: if you happen to know what happened to Jimmy.

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Speaker 4: Please do please do listen along and then write to us.

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Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 5: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 5: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 2: My name is Matt, my name is Nolan. They call

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Speaker 2: me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul,

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Speaker 1: Mission control deck, and most importantly are you.

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Speaker 5: You are here and that.

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Speaker 1: Makes this stuff they don't want you to know. From

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Speaker 1: the offset, it is important for us to collectively establish

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Speaker 1: that this episode is not an advertisement for the Irishman.

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Speaker 1: The newest Scorsese film that just dropped on Netflix to

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Speaker 1: no small amount of acclaim and a little bit of controversy.

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Speaker 1: Al Pacino plays one of the I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: secondary is a good word, a secondary character in the film.

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Speaker 1: He plays a character named Jimmy Hoffa, which is based

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Speaker 1: on the real life Jimmy Hoffa. Now, Noel, you and

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Speaker 1: I had talked about this film a little bit off

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Speaker 1: air when we saw it, and Paul you watched it,

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Speaker 1: so you brought it up to us without spoiling the

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Speaker 1: film for anyone. It's based on a book right by

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Speaker 1: this guy named Charles Brandt.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's called What I Say I Heard You Paint Houses?

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Speaker 1: I Heard you Paint Houses, which is a fantastic title.

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Speaker 1: This book purports to be nonfiction. It includes interviews and

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Speaker 1: alleged confessions made to the author, Charles Brandt, by a

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Speaker 1: former Mafia hitman named Frank Sheeran like Ed Sheeran and Irishman. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and this film inspired our own super producer Paul Deccan

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Speaker 1: to say, Hey, guys, have we ever delved into the

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Speaker 1: story of Jimmy Hoffa? And I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I assumed that we had. We had.

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Speaker 1: Not that changes today. So here are the facts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's talk about Jimmy Hoffa. Who is this guy? Well,

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Speaker 4: he was born James Riddle. He went by Jimmy Hoffa,

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Speaker 4: and he was born on Valentine's Day, that's February fourteenth,

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Speaker 4: nineteen thirteen, called Brazil, Indiana.

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Speaker 2: I did not know there was a Brazil Indiana.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of cool. I'd never heard of that place either.

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Speaker 4: Assuming the climate is a bit different in that Brazil

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Speaker 4: he was aware of. Let's say the American labor force,

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Speaker 4: the American laborer, the person who was using their hands

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Speaker 4: to create something, generally for somebody else. His father was

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Speaker 4: a coal miner, and he passed away when Hoffa was

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Speaker 4: very very young, or Jimmy was young, and his mom

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Speaker 4: had to end up joining the workforce to support her family,

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Speaker 4: which which was a fairly common occurrence, as you know,

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Speaker 4: the heads of households would die off, whether it was

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Speaker 4: through war conflict, or a workforce accident or something like that.

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Speaker 4: He had three siblings of four children, including Jimmy, and

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Speaker 4: eventually they moved to a place called Detroit, Michigan.

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Speaker 1: Which at the time was a hotbed of of industry

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Speaker 1: and growing. You know, this is still before the enormous

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Speaker 1: boom of the American auto industry, but still it's very

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Speaker 1: much an industry's place.

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Speaker 3: It's a great place to get a job.

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Speaker 1: And we don't know how much formal education Jimmy Hoffa

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Speaker 1: was able to achieve. You know, you'll hear history and

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Speaker 1: say they don't know whether he reached high school, much

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Speaker 1: less graduated, but we know that eventually while he was

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Speaker 1: in school, he had to drop out. He had to

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Speaker 1: help support his family, so he worked on the loading

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Speaker 1: dock for a chain of grocery stores there in Detroit,

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Speaker 1: and while working there, imagine how young this guy is.

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Speaker 1: While working there, he organizes his very first labor strike

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Speaker 1: and it all hinges on shipments of strawberries.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he actually was pretty demonstrating some pretty serious

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Speaker 2: streets smart to this point already, because he used a

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Speaker 2: recent shipment of strawberries as leverage to help get his

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Speaker 2: coworkers better deal, better contracts for their labor. They refused

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Speaker 2: to unload the strawberries until they had secured a better

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Speaker 2: pay and in the thirties, well, I.

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Speaker 4: Just have to say right there with the strawberries, like

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Speaker 4: that's a smart thing, because strawberries go bad pretty quickly,

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Speaker 4: and if you don't unload the strawberries. He's like he

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Speaker 4: was gumming up the works for everybody basically by doing that.

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Speaker 4: And it's interesting how it set a timer, like very

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Speaker 4: clear timer on when you're gonna lose all your money

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Speaker 4: on these strawberries, and you're also losing money because that

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Speaker 4: truck is now stuck there. It was just really smart.

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Speaker 3: We don't have worked with canned peas.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, it wouldn't because this canpeas.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, hard to say if that was

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Speaker 2: just like a serendipitous thing or if he very much,

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Speaker 2: you know, was being calculated about that. But it was

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Speaker 2: absolutely a smart move and he got what he wanted. Then,

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties, Hoffa officially joined the International Brotherhood

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Speaker 2: of Teamsters, which is what he went on to become

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Speaker 2: the president of at least the union's Detroit chapter. So

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Speaker 2: he kind of laid the groundwork for a career in labor,

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Speaker 2: and it would seem it it came by honestly based

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Speaker 2: on his trajectory and his upbringing.

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Speaker 3: At that point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we should also stop too for anyone who

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Speaker 1: doesn't know. Doubtless, doubtlessly we have several Teamsters in the

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Speaker 1: audience today, but a lot of people in this country

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Speaker 1: and abroad don't really know what a teamster is. The teamster,

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Speaker 1: the old word, atymologically is like someone who drives a

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Speaker 1: team of horses right now. According to their website teamster

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Speaker 1: dot org, the Teamsters are America's largest, most diverse union.

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Speaker 1: They started in nineteen oh three as the merger of

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Speaker 1: two team driver associations Team by the way, not team

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Speaker 1: in case my annunciation is off. And today you'll you

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Speaker 1: may be most familiar with them as truck drivers, right,

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Speaker 1: because we've replaced to a great degree, we've replaced animal

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Speaker 1: labor with mechanical labor. So at this time he is

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Speaker 1: he is, as you said, Noel joined up with the Teamsters.

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Speaker 1: He starts as the president of the Detroit chapter. For

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Speaker 1: many less ambitious people, that would be the version of

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Speaker 1: making it, you know what I mean, I'm king of

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Speaker 1: the town. And the thing is that Haffa is not

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Speaker 1: a guy satisfied with being a big fish in a

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Speaker 1: small town. Make no mistake, he is a shark. He

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Speaker 1: expands union membership, He quickly garners a reputation for getting

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Speaker 1: better contract agreements by any means necessary. Cough cough, corruption,

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Speaker 1: cough cough, mafia cough cough threats cough. Right, But he

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Speaker 1: started out honest, right, that's a very important thing. By

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, he's vice president of the entire union,

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Speaker 1: so not just Detroit, but the entire international brotherhood of Teamsters.

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Speaker 1: In just five years after that, nineteen fifty seven, he

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Speaker 1: is the president of the entire organization.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's one of these things where especially in the

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Speaker 2: way he's portrayed in film like I haven't s been

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Speaker 2: a long time since I've seen that Jack Nicholson film

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Speaker 2: that I believe Danny DeVito directed. It's called Hofa. But

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Speaker 2: at least in The Irishman, you do get the sense

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Speaker 2: that he felt as though he were still representing the

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Speaker 2: common man and doing something positive, even though he was

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Speaker 2: clearly heading up what was not a strictly legal enterprise.

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Speaker 2: He would he seemed like he maybe could convinced himself

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Speaker 2: that it was all for the greater good. It was

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Speaker 2: all forgetting his fellow brothers a better deal, like with

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Speaker 2: the strawberries. But in order to do that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're swimming with sharks here. We got to play nice

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Speaker 2: with the sharks. You got to be a bigger shirt,

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Speaker 2: a bigger shark exactly, because it's all about in us

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Speaker 2: versus them mentality, and in this case, us did include

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Speaker 2: some pretty nefarious characters. Haffa was to be the subject

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Speaker 2: of numerous criminal investigations, and it was a shadow that

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Speaker 2: kind of relentlessly followed him throughout his career, and this

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Speaker 2: is portrayed really, really well in the Scorsese film. Was

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Speaker 2: it entirely surprising his direct predecessor, Dave Beck, had also

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Speaker 2: been investigated and he was ultimately tried and convicted of

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Speaker 2: corrupt practices within the union.

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Speaker 1: Dave Beck, which was convicted, which gave Hafa the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to ascend to this position. Yet Haffa persevered. Nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: four was a big year for him in a number

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Speaker 1: of ways, not all of them fantastic. His big win

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Speaker 1: was that he got nearly all of the truck drivers

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Speaker 1: in the entire continent of North America under a single contract.

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam had been keeping an eye on Jimmy, and

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Speaker 1: they thought there was something rotten in the teamsters, something

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Speaker 1: fishy about his rise to fame and his success. Now

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Speaker 1: at this point, he is very, very similar to a

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Speaker 1: well known politician or maybe even to some degree a celebrity. Right,

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Speaker 1: the FBI and then US Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy

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Speaker 1: are watching Hafa very closely. They are convinced that a

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Speaker 1: lot of his union success is less a result of

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Speaker 1: being a shrewd negotiator and more a result of a

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Speaker 1: close collaboration with organized crime also known as the mob

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Speaker 1: or the mafia. Right, So what else happened in nineteen sixty.

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Speaker 4: Four, Well, Haffa himself was found guilty of a couple

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Speaker 4: of things, bribery for one, also jury tampering, ah, jury tampering,

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Speaker 4: the good old JT. When something goes wrong and somebody

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Speaker 4: knows it, you gotta tamper a little bit. Yeah right,

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Speaker 4: And that can be really that can be really terrible

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Speaker 4: or just going like here's one hundred dollars, don't don't

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Speaker 4: talk about me, or it could yeah, or it could

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Speaker 4: be something to the level of you know, memory is

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Speaker 4: a funny thing, mister Smith, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like sometimes you think you remember, so you look back

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Speaker 1: and you realize you don't remember it too good. After all,

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Speaker 1: you know, it could have been anybody there. But you

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Speaker 1: know one thing, one thing you never forget is your

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Speaker 1: children smile. And it's wonderful. We'll be able to see

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Speaker 1: that every day instead of just looking back and remembering

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Speaker 1: it and wishing you could say hello to him.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, oh boy. Yeah, that was really good science

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Speaker 2: and memory.

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Speaker 4: I was gonna say, just like casually mentioning his or

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Speaker 4: her daughter's birthday, but like that's like that was on

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Speaker 4: that was on them, was on the money.

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Speaker 1: Well that's cinematic. I'm sure it was much more subtle.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but that stuff that that's when he was found

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Speaker 4: guilty of both of those things in connection with a

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Speaker 4: previous trial that he had that he had gone through

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Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty two years prior.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was on trial for conspiracy, which I love

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Speaker 1: you that people could be convicted of conspiracy. And then

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Speaker 1: he was found guilty in sixty four for charges related to,

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Speaker 1: as you said, Matt conspiracy. So that was one bad

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Speaker 1: thing that happened to him that year.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he's also convicted of misusing funds from the union's

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Speaker 4: pension plan.

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Speaker 1: And that's a big note in the in the film

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Speaker 1: that Scorsese did, and also a note I believe in

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Speaker 1: the book I Heard You Paint Houses, because the union's

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Speaker 1: pension fund was an enormous amount of money and he

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Speaker 1: pretty much had direct control over it, so he could

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Speaker 1: make the money dance to the tunes he chose, and.

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Speaker 2: A lot of those tunes were mafia backed projects, like

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Speaker 2: in Las Vegas, for example, paying for wings to be

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Speaker 2: constructed on you know, casinos, and as we know, a

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Speaker 2: lot of that money came directly from the mob to

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Speaker 2: start you know, Las Vegas in the first place. So

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Speaker 2: there were those relationships that were ongoing and directly tied

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Speaker 2: to dipping into that money, which would then be invested

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Speaker 2: and get a return. And it's not like he was

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Speaker 2: stealing money from the pensioners people who were doe that money.

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Speaker 2: But it was still playing fast and loose with the rules.

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Speaker 4: You know, you're telling me that organized crime organizations launder

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Speaker 4: money through things like labor unions.

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Speaker 1: It's true, Matt, money laundering, but it's got a great return.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, if everything goes well, there's a

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Speaker 1: great return for that stuff. Yeah, money laundering was a

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Speaker 1: big part of it. Also, at what point do this

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Speaker 1: may be a story for a different day, but at

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Speaker 1: what point do campaign donations become.

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Speaker 2: Illegal?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: At what point are they interfering with the democratic process?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, all you gotta do is make them

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Speaker 4: unlimited and then you're good to go. I should fix

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Speaker 4: all those problems.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, I think it's safe for the five of us. Paul, Noel, Matt, myself,

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Speaker 1: and you listening to agree that Jimmy Hoffa probably did

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Speaker 1: not deal with these philosophical quandaries in the same way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just costed doing business.

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Speaker 2: So after three years fighting these charges that his lawyer,

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Speaker 2: and you know again, as depicted in the Scorceti film,

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Speaker 2: he was a union lawyer who was also very aware

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Speaker 2: of what was going on, made the argument that this

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Speaker 2: was all trumped up. He had exhausted his appeals finally,

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Speaker 2: and he got thirteen years in prison, and in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty seven he was incarcerated in the Louisbourg Federal Prison

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Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania. And then came along a like minded individual

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Speaker 2: who was sent it to the presidency, the little guy

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Speaker 2: by the name of Richard Nixon, who commuted haff A

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Speaker 2: sentenced in seventy one, essentially giving him a pard in

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Speaker 2: a presidential pardon with a year and a half of probation. However,

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Speaker 2: this came with a string attached Nixon and Haffa from

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Speaker 2: holding any union leadership position at least until nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: So bit of a slap on the wrists.

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Speaker 1: It's a weird one too, because it's a string with

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Speaker 1: a time limit. He's not saying stay out of the game,

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Speaker 1: you dirty rat. He's saying, just sit on the bench

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Speaker 1: until the eighties. Let's let the heat die down a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 4: Well, and it's so so odd to me that Nixon,

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Speaker 4: the president came through and said, you know what, it's okay,

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Speaker 4: is it odd?

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Speaker 2: You're good?

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Speaker 4: You're good man, You're gonna be okay. It's only been

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Speaker 4: a couple of years. You got thirteen, You'll be all right.

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Speaker 1: Well, Haffa donated heavily. Oh I know this campaign too.

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Speaker 4: But just to be able to get a president to

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Speaker 4: do that, no matter how much money you're donating to them,

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Speaker 4: because in the end, it's you know, the public appearance

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Speaker 4: of something like that. But here's the deal. Jimmy Hoffa

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Speaker 4: and a lot of labor union leaders out there are

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Speaker 4: like hugely beloved no matter what they're doing, no matter

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Speaker 4: what they've been committed of. Will you know, over the

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Speaker 4: course of time and history, will be beloved because there

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Speaker 4: is this this perception, at least from the outside. And

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Speaker 4: and you know, like we said, Jimmy Hoffa thought that

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Speaker 4: he was doing the right thing, or release appeared to

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Speaker 4: believe he was doing the right.

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Speaker 3: Thing, at least at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: The ideology outweighed the ego.

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Speaker 4: That exactly that ideology it ripples out through the public

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Speaker 4: of people who are assisted in that way.

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Speaker 2: And this is a one to one and some might

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Speaker 2: accuse me of being hyperbolic here, but it's almost the

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Speaker 2: way you hear about the way folks in Mydan treated

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Speaker 2: Pablo Escobar. You know, very clearly bad guy, doing bad things,

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Speaker 2: hurting people, probably directly hurting individuals in that community. But

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Speaker 2: there's this perception that he's the best chance they've got,

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Speaker 2: or he's actually looking out for the little people, you know,

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Speaker 2: and he cares in some way, and they call him

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Speaker 2: Saint Pablo and all that stuff, even though completely transparent

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Speaker 2: that this guy is no good.

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Speaker 4: Well in Hoffel, wasn't some mob boss, No exactly. I

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Speaker 4: don't want to draw one way similar exactly, but there's

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Speaker 4: intentions to look out for the labor class or the

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Speaker 4: working class.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we can imagine, you know, I think that

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Speaker 1: is a good comparison. We can imagine supporters of Escobar

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Speaker 1: and supporters of HAFA, not that they're the same in

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Speaker 1: the same line of business, but we can imagine the

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Speaker 1: supporters saying, hey, this guy is the reason that we

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Speaker 1: have a paycheck, is the reason that my family can

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Speaker 1: live comfortably or better than they would have otherwise. So

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Speaker 1: we have to remember also that with his enormous power,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa could move the vote, he could sway hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands of people to vote for or against a

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Speaker 1: given candidate. And for the next few years, Haffa wages

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Speaker 1: something very like a war. He's fighting that ban on

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Speaker 1: leadership in court. He doesn't want to wait till nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 1: And he's also working behind the scenes, with mixed success,

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Speaker 1: to reconsolidate his powerbase within the Union. And then, of course,

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Speaker 1: as even a casual student of history will recall, things

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Speaker 1: don't work out the way Haffa planned, or did they.

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Speaker 1: We're going to rejoin him on July thirtieth, nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: five after a word from our sponsor, and we're back.

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Speaker 1: July thirtieth, nineteen seventy five. Haffa is in a state

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Speaker 1: of what the streets called deep beef. He has numerous enemies,

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Speaker 1: he hasn't made a ton of friends, and he's alienated

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Speaker 1: many of the friends he had. But he wants to

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Speaker 1: make peace, and he realizes he might have to eat

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Speaker 1: some crow, he might have to swallow his pride, He

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Speaker 1: might have to make some inroads with people he swore

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Speaker 1: he would never work with again. So he leaves his

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Speaker 1: home in Detroit and he meets the two Tonys Anthony

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Speaker 1: Tony Jack and Uh Anthony Tony Pro. Tony Jack is

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Speaker 1: a figure in the Detroit crime scene. Tony Pro is

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Speaker 1: a mob affiliated union leader who's based in New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: So they're supposed to meet at this restaurant in Bloomfield Township.

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Speaker 4: Is at the Macus Red Fox. I believe, so, yes,

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Speaker 4: something like that.

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Speaker 1: They're going to say, correct, They're gonna squash the beef.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna settle their feud. At least that's what Haffa thinks.

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Speaker 4: So Haffa shows up, or we believe at least his

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Speaker 4: car shows up, and he appears to be the only

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Speaker 4: one there. You know, he's there. He's going to meet

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Speaker 4: two people. But Haffa is the only guy there, and

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Speaker 4: he's wondering what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Goes assume, We.

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Speaker 4: Assume, because really we have no idea. We have no

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Speaker 4: evidence at least that is, that is concrete as to

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Speaker 4: what occurred after he showed up at that restaurant, or

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Speaker 4: at least when his car showed up, because because his

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Speaker 4: car was there. But he was never seen again by

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Speaker 4: anyone except for the people responsible for what happened to

356
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Speaker 4: him or himself. Responsible for whatever happened to him. That's right,

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Speaker 4: it's a mystery. It's one of the most long standing

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Speaker 4: mysteries that has existed in this country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one of America's most prominent, divisive, important public figures

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Speaker 1: had simply Kaiser so siaated, he disappeared, and we're almost

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Speaker 1: a half a century into the post Hafa era. So

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Speaker 1: what happened to Jimmy Haffa? Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: The answer really depends on who you ask. There's no

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Speaker 1: shortage of theories that have popped up over the intervening decades,

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Speaker 1: and the most popular suspects being the mob of course,

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Speaker 1: But in some cases this surprised me. US federal agencies interesting, right,

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Speaker 1: did you guys hear about that one? That's a weird

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Speaker 1: one for sure.

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Speaker 2: I mean it makes sense considering that he was such

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Speaker 2: a persona no grada like for you know, Kennedy and

371
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Speaker 2: the US government. I mean, they were after him, and

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Speaker 2: he more or less shook the rap and then was

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Speaker 2: able to kind of get back into the game.

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Speaker 4: Well, we'll get into it a little bit further, but

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Speaker 4: there's also the idea that a federal agency was involved,

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Speaker 4: but not in disappearing him by killing him or anything,

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Speaker 4: but by putting him into a protection of some sort.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, at this point in the if we take

380
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Speaker 1: the high level look at it, at this point in

381
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Speaker 1: the world of conspiracy and speculation, the fate of Jimmy

382
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: Hoffe's kind of entered urban legend status, which means that

383
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: the theories start to obey some of the tropes we

384
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Speaker 1: would associate with folk tales or oral tradition. The general

385
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Speaker 1: consensus now is that the mob conspired to kill Hafa.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to stop him from becoming the King of

387
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Speaker 1: the Teamsters again. And that's because while he was locked up,

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Speaker 1: even though he wasn't locked up for the full thirteen

389
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Speaker 1: year sentence, while he was locked up, his former vice

390
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: president got pretty cozy with the mob, even more so

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Speaker 1: than Hoffa was, and he was much more willing to

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Speaker 1: play some games. When Jimmy Hoffa got out, the wise guys,

393
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Speaker 1: the mafioso knew that he would try to rain them

394
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Speaker 1: in a little bit and they wouldn't be able to

395
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Speaker 1: play all the reindeer games that they had become so

396
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Speaker 1: accustomed to. Make no mistake, they were probably making more

397
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Speaker 1: money under that vice president.

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Speaker 3: What was his name.

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Speaker 4: Meant that was frank Fitzimmons, Frank Edward, I believe Frankie Fitz.

400
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they were making they were probably making more

401
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: money under Frankie Fitz. Who on earth would say no

402
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: to continuing to enhance their profits. They weren't keen to

403
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: mess with that relationship. So the the idea then is

404
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: that the mob killed him or disappeared him, and we

405
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 1: see a lot of common troops. Just like in other

406
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: forms of folklore, there are tons of variations on this theory.

407
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: It's kind of like a kind of like a bar

408
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: joke or something, you know, where it's like X walks

409
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: into a bar. They follow the same gist a mob

410
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Speaker 1: hit and then some sort of industrial process to destroy

411
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Speaker 1: or hide Haffa's body. There are a ton of examples, yes.

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Speaker 2: There are. Indeed. One of them is that Haffa was

413
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Speaker 2: killed placed in the trunk of a car, then the

414
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: car was crushed in a mob affiliated scrapyard. That'd be

415
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Speaker 2: a pretty clever way to go about it, wouldn't that

416
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: leave a lot of physical evidence? Though, like I don't know,

417
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: you gotta we'll get a wonder when it like seep

418
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: out of the cubed car like the remains or anything

419
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 2: like that. I wonder what that would look like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine, so it would have to definitely be

421
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: a tightly controlled scrapyard. Scrapyards can be really big. But

422
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: this was also in the days before DNA testing. It's

423
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: true it wouldn't fly today.

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00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: No, certainly not as much, specially if it was a

425
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: known kind of mob tide facility or whatever. Another one

426
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 2: is that he was hit in the head with a

427
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 2: shovel and buried alive. Where are these coming from?

428
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Speaker 1: Jeez, dramatic? I like it, but that one doesn't make

429
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Speaker 1: the most sense.

430
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: Do you have any providence for the for the origin

431
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: of that one?

432
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that one comes to us from the great rumor mill.

433
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: That doesn't That one doesn't have a lot of sand

434
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: to it. A lot of these examples that we find

435
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: came out later after because of course this happened before DNA.

436
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: It also happened before internet, right, So a lot of

437
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: these come about from statements by former mafia associated individuals,

438
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: usually when they are tempting to seem as though they

439
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: have leverage so that they can get some juice with

440
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: the Feds, maybe get a better deal up to and

441
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: including relocation and immunity.

442
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: It makes sense, and that also makes sense for some

443
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 2: of the ones to follow, which seemed to be kind

444
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: of variations on a theme. Right, Haffa was murdered and

445
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 2: his remains replaced in an oil drum. Haffa, in one

446
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: container or another, was thrown into the Great Lakes, or

447
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: was abducted by the FEDS and thrown from an airplane.

448
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: It's a waterproof plan, full proof.

449
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 3: That's uh. I just think about that.

450
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: When has when has anybody said, you know, the best

451
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: way to get rid of this prominent figure is to

452
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: take them on an airplane and then, in full view

453
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: of anyone who happens to be, you know, looking up,

454
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: let's throw them from the plane.

455
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: Right.

456
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: It doesn't that one, okay? So that one comes from

457
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: the FED. One specifically comes from a guy named Joseph Franco.

458
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: I have no idea whether he's related to the actor.

459
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: He was an old, one time associate of Haffa's, and

460
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: Franco said that he'd kept the story to himself for

461
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: years because he wanted to use them though as leverage

462
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: in negotiating an immunity deal if he were caught for

463
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: other unrelated crimes. Spoiler alert. It did not work out

464
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: for Franco.

465
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: No, it did not.

466
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: There's one that Paul's a particular fan of as well,

467
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: the idea that Haffa became this sort of grisly hidden

468
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: landmark for a sports team.

469
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

470
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 4: The idea is that Haffa was dispatched, shot maybe whatever

471
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: it was. Then he was his limbs were taken apart,

472
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 4: he was dismembered, then frozen, and then get this guess,

473
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 4: buried inside the cement foundation of Giant Stadium. Now, this

474
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 4: was then located in Rutherford, New Jersey and East Rutherford,

475
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 4: New Jersey.

476
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 5: Oh.

477
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about this, just to interject, is that

478
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: there's a nice mythic tie in here because in some

479
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: ancient civilizations and cultures, when you were building a place

480
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: of great import, you were required to make a blood

481
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: sacrifice of some sort.

482
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 4: This and Cat's in there right right now.

483
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: This doesn't work with that kind of left hand path

484
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: stuff because the idea is that he wasn't killed on

485
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: the site. If you really want the magic to hit,

486
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: it's got to happen, you know, live and direct on

487
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: the place where you plan to lay the stones.

488
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: Wow.

489
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I can't remember the movie that I just

490
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 4: watched that talked all about that, but it had the

491
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 4: actor who plays the Queen of Dragons. She was in it,

492
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 4: and it was like a haunting horror movie on Netflix.

493
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: Anyway, I'll check it out. It's out there.

494
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 4: They they mentioned they mentioned burying a cat like and

495
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: a live cat in the in.

496
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: The walls jerks.

497
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

498
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: Gross.

499
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 4: Well anyway, in this case, it was in Giant Stadium.

500
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 4: And this is pretty crazy because it originates from an

501
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: interview that a guy named Donald Francos gave in nineteen

502
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 4: eighty nine to Playboy magazine.

503
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: Which I want to say, at the time was doing

504
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: great journalism.

505
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 4: Actually still Playboys get Soldiers on.

506
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: I'm not as familiar. I'm not as familiar with modern

507
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: Playboy nowadays.

508
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: I mean, there's the old joke that you just read

509
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: it for the articles, but apparently, like for a while,

510
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: it was absolutely a place where a lot of short

511
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: stories writers broke their work and kind of went on

512
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: to great things.

513
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: My favorite shel Silverstein poem was published in Playboy, and

514
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: I stole a copy as a kid so I could

515
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: read the poem.

516
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: Isn't that weird?

517
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: That is quite weird.

518
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good but it's about the Devil. It's

519
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: a whole thing.

520
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: Oh, I know the one. Yeah, that one's kind of filthy, Yes,

521
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: it is not for all. I remember that one. Yeah,

522
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: that's a good one. What's the name of the Oh, gosh,

523
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: the Devil and Billy Markham, that's the one. Yeah. And

524
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: in that article in Playboy, he claimed that Hoffe was

525
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: killed by a New York Irish mafia by the name

526
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: of Jimmy Coonan and buried at the home field of

527
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams,

528
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: so ac Cordy de Franco's. After Coonan shot Hoffe with

529
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: a silence twenty two caliber pistol and a house in

530
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 2: Mount Clemmens, Michigan, he and New York Mafia and John

531
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: Sullivan bagged up the body parts and stored them in

532
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: a freezer for months.

533
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: See that's weird.

534
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: Because you would think you would want to get rid

535
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: of the body as soon as you can, because every

536
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,239
Speaker 1: time anybody else who knows about the freezer, even if

537
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: they don't know there's a body in it, could be

538
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: an avenue of exposure. But okay, so they've got been

539
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: in this freezer for months apparently nobody opens the freezer

540
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: at this part of town. What do they do after

541
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: those months have passed.

542
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 4: Well, you find a stadium that is under construction, a

543
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: giant concrete monstrosity, and you find a place where concrete

544
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 4: is being poured and you place it sortish underneath there. Right,

545
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 4: that's the whole idea. So so for real, though, Giant

546
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 4: Stadium was under construction and it was going to open

547
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 4: up the next year, or it was planned to at least,

548
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 4: the bags were then mixed into the concrete foundation in

549
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 4: what became a certain section. So if you go, if

550
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 4: you went to Giant Stadium and you looked at section

551
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 4: one oh seven down there deep, that's where Jimmy Hoffe

552
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 4: late at least according to this theory. And this section

553
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 4: was located near the end zone of the stadium's football fields.

554
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: There's one one of the end zones.

555
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one problem with this, which is that there

556
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: is no evidence other than these claims by people speaking

557
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: years after the fact. In fact, the FBI, while they

558
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: had initially entertained most descriptions or allegations of the fate

559
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: of Jimmy Hoffa and they, you know, days and months

560
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: following his disappearance. They really cooled on this theory, and

561
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: when the stadium was demolished in twenty ten, the FBI

562
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: did not even bother to show up and search them site.

563
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: Because they put him there. I'm just kidding, that's that's

564
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 4: not true.

565
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: I'm joking, you know.

566
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: I just I don't think people really get thrown from

567
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: planes as often as fiction would have us believe.

568
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 4: Well, that's the that's the other part of the stories.

569
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 4: He was thrown from a plane and he went right through,

570
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 4: straight through that concrete and just like embedded inside there.

571
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: And oh and the FBI went, yeah, good enough, she.

572
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 4: Was wet though concrete was still wet, and he just went.

573
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 1: Uh, so, let's get back to shen Shechern is the

574
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: source of the claims that are made in the book

575
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: I Heard You Paint Houses, Uh and The Irishman. The

576
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: film is based on the book I Heard You Paint Houses.

577
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: Chern says that he had betrayed Jimmy Hoffa, and he

578
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 1: says multiple times that Jimmy Hoffa was a friend of

579
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: his right and he said he pulled the trigger because

580
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: it was inevitable that someone was gonna kill Hafa, and

581
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: so he thought he felt honor bound that it should

582
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: be him, and he thought, also, you know, at least

583
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,239
Speaker 1: I'll make it quick. He'll die instantly. So here's what

584
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: he said happened. He said that he brought Haffa to

585
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: a house in northwestern Detroit. He stood behind Jimmy Hoffa,

586
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: and while Jimmy hoff was distracted, Chron shot him twice

587
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: in the back of the head the double tap, and

588
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: then he said they cremated Haffa's remains an a trastion

589
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: cinerator in the suburbs of Detroit. Shechrin actually gave the

590
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: address of the house, and we'll get to this. We

591
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: gave the address of the house where the murder supposedly

592
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 1: took place. Investigators treated seriously. They searched the site for

593
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: evidence of the killing, and they found traces of blood

594
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: in the house, but later testing revealed that this blood

595
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: did not belong to Haffa, so someone probably died. Maybe

596
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: Sherin was just misremembering. This, however, was just one of

597
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: several searches conducted. We'll get to a few of those

598
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: after award from our sponsor.

599
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: And we're back.

600
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 4: Now let's get into some of the official attempts to

601
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 4: find Jimmy Hoffer to recover his body or even to

602
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: locate him if he was still alive. So get let's

603
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 4: jump to nineteen eighty nine to the FBI and Kenneth Walton.

604
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 4: He's the agent in charge of the FBI's Detroit office

605
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 4: and he was speaking with the Detroit News in nineteen

606
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 4: eighty nine and he was talking about how he knew

607
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 4: what had happened to Haffa, and we have a quote

608
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: from him here.

609
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: I'm comfortable, I know who did it, but it's never

610
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: going to be prosecuted because we would have to divulge informants,

611
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: confidential sources. Mm hmmm, foremants common confidential sources cis. Yeah.

612
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 4: Well, now let's just say I can imagine in a

613
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 4: case like this, with somebody like Jimmy Hoffa that has

614
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 4: so many connections to probably multiple organized criminal organizations, that

615
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 4: if you did, let's say, charge somebody that you knew

616
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 4: or you were aware of who did it. But if

617
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 4: by doing that, it's going to compromise like two or

618
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 4: three major let's say vice investigations or you know, investigations

619
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 4: of conspiracy like that would be a hard that would

620
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 4: be a difficult choice to make at least just to

621
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 4: find the killer or to apprehend the killer of another

622
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 4: known criminal or associated So like, why would you give

623
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 4: up on this other thing that is viable right now

624
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 4: just to just to close that case?

625
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, because if and I don't want

626
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: to put words into the mouths of the law enforcement here,

627
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: but I think that's a fantastic point, because if you

628
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: think that someone is already inherently corrupting kind of a

629
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: dirt bag for one reason or another, then do you

630
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: feel the same moral obligation to pursue a case, especially

631
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: if it means pursuing that case may preclude your ability

632
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: to lock up other living criminals?

633
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, who are out there still doing things that you

634
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 4: find morally or you know, legally.

635
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: Terrible.

636
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 4: That's a really good point, man, I don't I mean

637
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 4: it would it would make sense that Walton at.

638
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: Least believed, like truly believed he knew.

639
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I would say also, I would say also

640
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: to as anyone in the enforcement community listening to the

641
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: show today, including our NSA intern Steve knows full well,

642
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: I imagine that the vast majority of professionals working in those

643
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: fields would say, well, it doesn't matter whether I like

644
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: someone who is a victim of a crime. It's my job,

645
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: it's my career.

646
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 4: Correct. But it is a cold hard fact that somebody

647
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 4: somewhere would have to make the decision to to you know,

648
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 4: if there was and this is the big if here,

649
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 4: if there was a conflict in that way that we're

650
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 4: speaking of here, somebody would have to make the decision

651
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 4: to either continue searching for Haffa and going down those leads,

652
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 4: or saying, okay, we got to leave this alone.

653
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's true, it's true. The search continues.

654
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, you know, we had mentioned

655
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: earlier the lack of DNA evidence for testing. Now, forensic

656
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: DNA is a thing, forensic DNA investigation. Rather, in two

657
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: thousand and one, these hair strands found in a nineteen

658
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: seventy five Mercury marquee linked Haffa to a vehicle that

659
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: authorities believed was used in this disappearance. This vehicle, this

660
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: Mercury was owned by a friend of Haffa's named Charles

661
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: Chucky O'Brien, and they were actually they were actually friends.

662
00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: Police and survivors. Members of Haffa's family had always believed

663
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: that O'Brien played some sort of role in the disappearance,

664
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: but O'Brien for decades had denied being involved in any shape,

665
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: form or fashion. He said, in fact, Haffa had never

666
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: even been a passenger in his car. Now, just to

667
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: tip here for all the nair dwells in the crowd today,

668
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: if you want a stone wall, that's a that's a

669
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: pretty good way to do it, you know what I mean.

670
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: That's like just under the level of playing so dumb

671
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: that you say I own a car.

672
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, we found these hairs of Jimmy Hoffa's in

673
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 4: your car. He's never even been in there.

674
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 3: I own a car.

675
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 2: What's hair?

676
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: Guys? This is a lot for me to take in.

677
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: Gosh, but this lead this search also petered out because

678
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: you see authorities linked Hafa or some strands of his

679
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: hair to the car, but they were not able to

680
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: determine when Hafa would have been in the car. This

681
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: also could mean that since he and Chucky hang out

682
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: a lot, that maybe the hair just got on some

683
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: of Chucky's clothing or something.

684
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: And I think we maybe bury the lead here a

685
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: little bit. Chucky was more than just a friend. He

686
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: was Halfa's adopted son, right, and the way it's portrayed

687
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: in the movie. I was a little confused about it too,

688
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: because there's a scene where somebody pulls a gun on

689
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: Hafa during one of his trials or like, you know,

690
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: one of his corruption trials, and Chucky kicks the crap

691
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 2: out of the guy, and Haffa makes a big scene

692
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: by saying, as my boy, you know, like I raised

693
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: him or whatever.

694
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 3: You run for a knife, you charge your gun, you charge.

695
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: A gun, exactly, A point being it wasn't his blood son,

696
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 2: it wasn't his biological son, but essentially was someone he

697
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: had taken under his wing and referred to more or

698
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 2: less as his adopted son. So my question is surely

699
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: he if they were as close as as as the

700
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 2: record indicates, he would have been in that car before.

701
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 3: He's never been in my What is a car? I

702
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 3: have a car.

703
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 4: I don't understand, Charles w Chucky O'Brien.

704
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: So there were more searches they've continued. We mentioned that

705
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: twenty twelve search based on the testimony of Sheeran or

706
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: the statements of Sherian. Investigators did search that residence based

707
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: on a tip twenty twelve. They didn't They didn't find anything.

708
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: They found some blood, but it wasn't half as you.

709
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: I think every time I hear the name Shearon, Yes,

710
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 2: ed she no, she ra, Oh you know power, it's

711
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: the better version myself here.

712
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, that wasn't me.

713
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 3: No.

714
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: I never understood why it wasn't she woman because there

715
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: was this internal consistent man.

716
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she rah.

717
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: Why couldn't be he Ra?

718
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: That'd be cool. I was actually of a ThunderCats guy.

719
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: I was a superior muscly mutant show. In my opinion,

720
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: I was ThunderCats.

721
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: Oh wow, we're doing the low dubstep.

722
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 2: That was kind of the the Hank Hill versus.

723
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 3: I was gonna.

724
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 4: I thought it's gonna be so much more intense than that.

725
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 4: I was kind of bracing myself and there.

726
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 2: Well, because we were we were reacting to your brace. Yeah,

727
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: we held back because you were clearly.

728
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 3: I think we both thought that you were.

729
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: You were just letting the moment build and you were

730
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: going to scream it.

731
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, it was great.

732
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: We'll fix it in post. No, I don't need it,

733
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 3: so it's great. Yeah.

734
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 1: Unrelated saw rewatched the live action he Man.

735
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I liked it you know who plays Skeletor.

736
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: Uh oh uh not Dolph Lunggren.

737
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 3: Uh frank No, yeah, that's it.

738
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: And he he's the only person who hasn't disowned the

739
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: film because his kids liked it. He played a very

740
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: strange Skeletor. Also, you know, some toy lines just don't

741
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: have the narrative haft to hold a feature. You know,

742
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: they even had man at arms in there.

743
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: Anyway, what else was Franklin going, Oh, yeah, he's.

744
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: In a bunch of stuff, but he was not in

745
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: the Haffa investigation.

746
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 2: No, which should probably return to you to wrap this

747
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 2: one up.

748
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: In June of twenty thirteen, the FBI gets another tip

749
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: and they search a field in Oakland Township, Michigan, that's

750
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: about twenty miles away from where Halfa was last scene.

751
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: There was a guy involved in crime named Tony Zarelli,

752
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: not the stereotype, but this is this is a Tony

753
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: heavy tail and Zarelli gave the gave the authorities info

754
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: about where he said Halfa was buried. He also described

755
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: how Haffa died. He said, oh, yeah, he's the he's

756
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: the person who said that Haffa was hit on the

757
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: head with a shovel and buried alive. But he said

758
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: this in an ebook that he was selling for profit,

759
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: and nothing came of it. So either the authorities were

760
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 1: bad at digging or Zarelli was miss remembering. But at

761
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: this point no one has verified any remains. The closest

762
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: they've come would be those strands of hair with Haffa's DNA.

763
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: But this also leads us to controversies. The Irishman is

764
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: based on, as we said, a single book. Both Scorsese

765
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: and de Niro, who plays Sherin, described the character Sherian

766
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: in the film as a fictional persona based on or

767
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: loosely inspired by the real guy. And furthermore, not all

768
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: Haffa experts agree with Sheern's story. A couple of them

769
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: think it's total malarkey.

770
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. The author Dan Mouldea, he wrote the book

771
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 4: The Hoffa Wars, and he's been researching the disappearance of

772
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 4: this gentleman for god forty years. So he was speaking

773
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 4: with Robert de Niro in twenty fourteen, and he basically

774
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 4: was trying to ward off de Niro, saying that you know,

775
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 4: he's got all these doubts about Sheeran's story. I'm just

776
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 4: telling DeNiro that you're in in Brandt where I, for

777
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 4: let's say, essentially running a con job on de Niro,

778
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 4: saying this is you should not be doing this, like

779
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 4: why would you make this movie? But again, like this

780
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 4: is pretty this is a pretty interesting story. Even if

781
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 4: it's not true. I would say it's it's pretty good storytelling,

782
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 4: and and it makes me want to watch it.

783
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: Are we in spoiler territory here for the film? I

784
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: feel like we've kind of danced around it, right.

785
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 3: Uh, we can, Yeah, we could go ahead.

786
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: Let's do the spoiler countdown because it is a new film, right,

787
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: three two and one.

788
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: There's I was I didn't and I didn't hadn't done

789
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: my homework. Is that much Before watching this I knew

790
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: it was based on a book. I did not realize

791
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: that it was meant to be unequivocally like this guy

792
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: killed Jimmy Hoffap this is it. And when the moment

793
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 2: in the film where that happens, I wasn't expecting it.

794
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 2: And then I immediately googled Irishmen fiction, you know, And

795
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: I think that's sort of the consensus is that it's

796
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: a little more fiction or at least you know, conflation

797
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: of fact and fiction. It is pure nonfiction storytelling because

798
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 2: it again is based on one book, one man's account,

799
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: a deathbed confession. Essentially, you know, this guy did not

800
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 2: live much longer past this interview, and that's that's dramatized

801
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: in the film as well. The fact that he's delivering

802
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: this story to the perspective camera, which is you know,

803
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: supposed to be the journalist of parent you know, which

804
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: is you are the stand in for that kind of

805
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: as a viewer. Excellent film. But when I saw that,

806
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: I was like, WHOA, Okay, I guess we're this is

807
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 2: sort of a hybrid thing I'm seeing here, like Once

808
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: upon a time in Hollywood, for example. But if you

809
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: were to believe the book, then this this is how

810
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: it happened.

811
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 4: I do want to bring something up. My father in

812
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 4: law talked with me about this pretty extensively. He is

813
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 4: also a tony and he told me that, without getting

814
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 4: into too much detail, if this kind of thing was

815
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 4: gonna go down with somebody like Jimmy Hoffa, the only

816
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 4: way you could pull it off is to get one

817
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 4: of his closest associates or friends to do.

818
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: It himself, because he's so protected uh huh.

819
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 4: So it would make sense for Scheran's character to actually

820
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 4: be the one who's able to get close enough to

821
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 4: do it.

822
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: Because we haven't really talked about this exactly, but I

823
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: mean they're basically brothers, yeah, in the film. And there's

824
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 2: another character, the head of the Buffelini crime family, you know, Russell,

825
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: who's played by Joe Peshy wonderful performance. The three of

826
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 2: them are kind of inseparable. They're almost like a family.

827
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: But Jimmy in particular gets a really close relationship with

828
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: his daughter and that's the whole thing. But yeah, he

829
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 2: trusts him like a blood brother.

830
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 1: Well, one of the other reasons, I mean, think of

831
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: the logistics. If you're trying to pull off a job

832
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: like this, you have somebody who not only has a

833
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: protective close circle, but they also have a established schedule, calendar.

834
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: People know where and when they're supposed to be at

835
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: the majority of times. It's not like if you're just

836
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: doing you know, if you're just landing in a strange

837
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 1: town and finding someone under a bridge that no one

838
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: will miss for a few weeks, like this is an

839
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: established thing where you have you know, you have at

840
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,439
Speaker 1: most probably a few hours to get out of town, right,

841
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: So it's it definitely. I think your father in law

842
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: is on the money.

843
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's kind of scary, but yes, let's continue.

844
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 1: So Dan Moldea has his own theory. He believes Hoffa's

845
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: disappearance was, in his mind, a New Jersey operation. He

846
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: said he's interviewed all the suspected killers in his decades

847
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: long search for the truth of the matter, and he

848
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: he thinks it's most likely that it was a production

849
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: of New Jersey operators. Paul Mission Control Decat raised a

850
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: great point off air earlier when we were talking, and

851
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: he said one thing that he found, one thing that

852
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: he found compelling was that the story she Run's account

853
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: felt kind of understated, like the way Noel depicted it.

854
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: This death is you know, there's not a lot of

855
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: gravitas build up. It feels abrupt and brutal. If that

856
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: is this last one was the last one, promise, If

857
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: that is Jimmy Hoffe killed himself.

858
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 3: We didn't talk about this.

859
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: We're not going to talk too much about it because

860
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: there's not a ton of evidence to lean on here.

861
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: But what if he committed pseudo side, which as we

862
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: all know, is the fancy pants cravat wearing word for

863
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: faking one's death. It is very very difficult to do

864
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: successfully if you want to make any money. It is

865
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: not impossible to do if you want to just dis

866
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 1: appear and lived by her wits.

867
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 4: Or if you have access to someone who makes some

868
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 4: very accurate id of some sort.

869
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: Right.

870
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: Could he have gone with the Federal Witness Protection program?

871
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: Could he have gone with you or with the UH?

872
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: Could he have gone with the institution that is sometimes

873
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: called witless protection? And if so, what happened to him? Well,

874
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: we know that Jimmy Hoffa died for legal purposes on

875
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: July thirtieth, nineteen eighty two. He was declared legally dead

876
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 1: as we record today's episode. His disappearance and his likely

877
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: death have yet to be confirmed. Let's do a little math.

878
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: If he were alive in twenty nineteen as we record this,

879
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: he would be one hundred and six years old. That

880
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: means even if somehow he actually went off the grid,

881
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, changed his name to himI Jaffa or whatever,

882
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 1: and lived in a small town in Saskatchewan or something,

883
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: he probably all already passed away. But that hasn't stopped

884
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: the investigation. As a matter of fact, this is one

885
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: of the things we can leave you with. The film

886
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: and the book that we've mentioned today may have inspired

887
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: US investigators to get back on the case.

888
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 4: So this was December twenty nineteen. This is right now

889
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 4: as we're recording this, as The Irishman has come out.

890
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 4: There's an interview with US attorney Matthew Schneider, and this

891
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 4: guy was asked by you know, a reporter, by someone there,

892
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 4: what do you you know? What do you think about

893
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 4: the Irishman? What are your thoughts? Well, his statement was

894
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 4: certainly intriguing.

895
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: I will talk about this, but not now. I have

896
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 2: a lot of thoughts about it. It's unresolved. I have

897
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 2: my own theories. There will be more to come on this.

898
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 2: WHOA yeah, I mean, you know, I didn't mean to

899
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 2: dismiss this whole thing as being like some sort of fantasy. Obviously,

900
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 2: there's information in this film, in this book that is meaningful.

901
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: But you can draw your conclusions. But anybody like this

902
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: who's actually really close to the story, surely there's gonna

903
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 2: be some stuff that there's a ring of truth to,

904
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 2: or that he knows unequivocally is true. And I'd be

905
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 2: interested to hear this perspective. I think that it's the

906
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 2: people that are still alive that I think that can

907
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: really shed some light on which parts of this are real.

908
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 2: And that's yet to be determined.

909
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 3: And this is also a.

910
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: Situation because many of the people who would have been

911
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: in their prime and directly involved have passed on. That's

912
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: just how, you know, That's just how the body crumbles, right, And.

913
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes me, it makes me wonder if a

914
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 4: deathbed confession has already occurred. It just kind of went

915
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 4: unnoticed because the family and the surrounding people were just like, okay, whatever, whatever, Grandpa,

916
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 4: you're crazy, or even grandpa, what are you saying? No, no, no,

917
00:51:58,280 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 4: no, no no.

918
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 2: We don't talk about their grandpa Rampo.

919
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be Omeerica.

920
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 3: You know the rules, get the pillow.

921
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 4: I'm just you know, that was dark.

922
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: I apologize.

923
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 4: We're gonna take it. Hey, Grandpa, We're gonna take a

924
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 4: quick trip over to the Giants stadium. It's gonna be fine, Grandpa,

925
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 4: just come with us.

926
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 1: The best view is from outside the player.

927
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 3: Oh, this is terrible.

928
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 2: Just that field of dreams, right.

929
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

930
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts.

931
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 2: It's right let us know what you think. You can

932
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: reach to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on

933
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 2: Facebook X and YouTube on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy

934
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 2: Stuff Show.

935
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,960
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936
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:43,240
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937
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,480
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938
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 4: we can use your name and message on the air.

939
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,480
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940
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 4: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

941
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 4: fashioned email.

942
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,239
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943
00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the

944
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

945
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 4: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

946
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:30,200
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947
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,520
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