Speaker 1: Hey, yo, you're listening to Waiting on Reparations, a production
Speaker 1: of my heart radio step Tortia, And I'll take a
Speaker 1: step backwards because I don't fight my hate this and
Speaker 1: what the fucking hat? So all I ask them to
Speaker 1: look past it and be mature of that. I'm passive,
Speaker 1: but that don't mean that I'm a fucking cat boy
Speaker 1: like Martin Luther Mahatma Gandhi. I use my words to
Speaker 1: settle my conflicts rather than try to shoot you up
Speaker 1: in cool bruts, rather stand beside you them, invite you,
Speaker 1: and a rather understanding than that never happened tried to
Speaker 1: all Right, this week, I am so enthused and honored
Speaker 1: frankly to be joined by my comrade, my colleague, my mentor.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Travis Williams. Uh, Travis, I don't even
Speaker 1: know how to properly introduce you, because you have such
Speaker 1: a range of expertises and experiences, So telling people a
Speaker 1: little bit about yourself. Who are you? Um? A black
Speaker 1: man vegan Uh originally from for a lot of deal Florida.
Speaker 1: Uh It's tough when I say originally, right, So I'm
Speaker 1: from a lot of Florida, but I was born so
Speaker 1: maybe that's my origin story. But I considered the origin
Speaker 1: story wherever, like your most uh meaningful roots were set right.
Speaker 1: But I was born in Atlanta, Georgia. Did my undergraduate
Speaker 1: work at d Florida Agriculture and Mechanical University, home of
Speaker 1: the mighty Ratler's Orange Green eight seven October three. I
Speaker 1: love my HBCU, you know what I mean, check it
Speaker 1: out orangr green. Um and then oh yeah, you know
Speaker 1: I always rap. And you know my high school colors
Speaker 1: was orange green as well because our first football coach
Speaker 1: it's also a Wraptler. So um. And I went to
Speaker 1: this high school called Lanchile High School, which was one
Speaker 1: of the two biggest black high schools in Broward County.
Speaker 1: And you know, browartt is the most black, most Democrat county,
Speaker 1: or was when I was growing up in all of
Speaker 1: the state of Florida. And Miss Elie fought real hard
Speaker 1: to make sure that a little black is like me.
Speaker 1: He educated and her home is now a museum. It's
Speaker 1: about maybe a two minute walk from my grandfather's house.
Speaker 1: So uh he passed away, but his old house and
Speaker 1: so um, so yeah that is that. I did my
Speaker 1: legal studies at the University of Georgia. UM was a
Speaker 1: public defender for a long time, had a had an
Speaker 1: epic mental breakdown, uh myself epic, Hey, if I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do it, it's gonna be happy. If we're gonna break down, down,
Speaker 1: do it, break everything, break all the windows, and so
Speaker 1: uh found myself homeless and and and really uh really
Speaker 1: really suffering and in painful about two plus years. And
Speaker 1: then the last six years five years, I've been um
Speaker 1: uh began reinvesting uh in in community and community organized
Speaker 1: and I've been organizing work since I was fifteens, you know,
Speaker 1: and so uh so over the last uh five and
Speaker 1: a half so six years, been been back doing that.
Speaker 1: And I've been fortunate enough to you know, have been
Speaker 1: invited to be at all all these different universities and
Speaker 1: going these different things and so um uh so it's
Speaker 1: it's not unfamiliar. And then like so now I do
Speaker 1: a lot of community education and political education um at
Speaker 1: a grassroots level aimed at uh mobilizing people, assisting them
Speaker 1: and organizing for political action. And so I also do
Speaker 1: work out of out earn this little ministry at at
Speaker 1: a little medium sized church. Uh. And my church is
Speaker 1: coven to Presbyterium ministry is the uh uh neighborhood ministries,
Speaker 1: which is it doesn't just two words that don't make
Speaker 1: sense until you know it is we're doing. And so
Speaker 1: it's helping people stay house, defeating people. I'm sitting in
Speaker 1: the I'm sitting in the fellowship haul down. This is
Speaker 1: where we were in the food pantry or clothing closet.
Speaker 1: We're moving things out of here is the uh trying
Speaker 1: to figure out a different model. But um also uh
Speaker 1: minister and manager but neevolence accounts. So helping people where
Speaker 1: they can and using uh Jesus ministry with the poor
Speaker 1: to God our efforts to assist people. I noticed, and
Speaker 1: all of that, you somehow managed to not bring up
Speaker 1: hip hop at all? Do you have relationship to hip hop?
Speaker 1: All this dope ship, all this other dope ship is
Speaker 1: so dope that it's not even worth bringing up that.
Speaker 1: Not even bringing up that your south far you are
Speaker 1: a penman. Well, you know something, I had some records
Speaker 1: that at one time, uh you know, had had some
Speaker 1: little had some little heat to it. But I I
Speaker 1: just I love I do love hip hop. But you
Speaker 1: know what, though I really don't listen to hip hop
Speaker 1: anymore and and it definitely not like sometimes I get
Speaker 1: nostalgic and and don't get me wrong, Race the five
Speaker 1: nine even now, like the way he puts together a sentence,
Speaker 1: his art right, and I appreciate the art um and
Speaker 1: I listened here there you know, uh fly God is
Speaker 1: an awesome god. West side gun you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like you know, pray for Paris? Uh you know? Um
Speaker 1: uh what what are you called? Kama Kaze? Like I
Speaker 1: listened to. I still listen to some sometimes, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's tough, man, It's tough to listen to it
Speaker 1: some of the music. Like you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I feel like we I think you and I have
Speaker 1: talked about this before. I think hip hop, I think
Speaker 1: any art form right has to have gate keepers. Right,
Speaker 1: has to have people that make people do the work
Speaker 1: to get good at something right. And hip hop has
Speaker 1: the least amount of gate keepers, but it used to
Speaker 1: have the most. Right. It was you had to run through,
Speaker 1: like when I was a kid trying to learn how
Speaker 1: to wrap, you know what I mean, Like I had
Speaker 1: to figure out how to wrap, and then I had
Speaker 1: to be brave enough to wrap on the school bus
Speaker 1: and then if you heard I could wrap it, and
Speaker 1: it was like you gotta wrap against this other guy
Speaker 1: who can crap. And then I'll go, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll be rapping at the crackhouse with some
Speaker 1: with some dope and rappers about stuff and then binge
Speaker 1: and it's like all of this stuff you get good at,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And now you don't gotta like,
Speaker 1: you don't gotta put in the work, you don't gotta
Speaker 1: do nothing. You just so you never really get better,
Speaker 1: you never really master the crap, you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's tough for me to listen to
Speaker 1: somebody who ain't even investing in mastering the crack. So
Speaker 1: it is come from a place of craftsmanship and not
Speaker 1: necessarily like from a place as an organizer, and that's
Speaker 1: someone that is pushing back against systems of capital and
Speaker 1: of racial capital, etcetera. Like the way that that is
Speaker 1: all uh then shaping the genre and what ends up
Speaker 1: floating up to the surface is what we then consider
Speaker 1: a mainstream. Does that adds? Does that at all influence
Speaker 1: like your how how you partaking hip hop? Commarly the
Speaker 1: craftsmanship thing let's think about what an album is. Right,
Speaker 1: an album is forty five to our some change the
Speaker 1: hell album you're listening to. That's an hour long album.
Speaker 1: Come on now, come on now. I was reading recently
Speaker 1: that the like the top the last ten years, like
Speaker 1: the top albums of the year in hip hop for all,
Speaker 1: like thirty minutes long. But that's weak, and you know
Speaker 1: I hate that. No, think about think about right, Okay,
Speaker 1: by Outcast undisputably an incredible record, right, undisputable? Right? So climen, Now,
Speaker 1: what did they take them to three years to make
Speaker 1: that record? Let me see uh uh Southern player lists
Speaker 1: that came out ninety three or ninety four, maybe ninety five,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Two years later you had uh, you
Speaker 1: had a Tiens, and then maybe two or three years
Speaker 1: later you had incuntically right, And so in then two
Speaker 1: year time period, right. I heard nas want to say
Speaker 1: this in a in a source article like maybe the
Speaker 1: late nineties. He said that first album is the easiest
Speaker 1: because it took you eighteen years, right for twenty two years,
Speaker 1: right to have Old You were right. It's those the
Speaker 1: hard albums the next one because you don't have as
Speaker 1: much time to write end the precious change. The choice
Speaker 1: structure is different in center, structures different. Right, So when
Speaker 1: when I look at like what an album is an album?
Speaker 1: Generally people write songs about the highlights of their life, right,
Speaker 1: Like each song is a highlight on an amalgamation of highlights.
Speaker 1: So if you look at Marvin Gaye, I Want You
Speaker 1: right the record I want you incredible records, it's all
Speaker 1: about being in love and expressing that love intimately sexually right,
Speaker 1: beautiful record beautiful. But these are all highlights sexual experiences.
Speaker 1: These aren't the ones that he had with This ain't
Speaker 1: like the random Thursday when he just got off work
Speaker 1: and brought home. This ain't the one lady got woke
Speaker 1: up because the baby woke up, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's just the highlights, right, So I expect someone to
Speaker 1: to offer their highlights, But um what what used to
Speaker 1: be the highlights in hip hop music? Used to be
Speaker 1: the highlights of like liberation, right, and liberation rejecting restrictions, right,
Speaker 1: and then now the highlights are I don't know, transactional monetary.
Speaker 1: It's like I can't I can't handle that, right, Like
Speaker 1: it's just too much. Yeah, and I feel like it's
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, we go out, we party every night,
Speaker 1: every night we have it's not it isn't the highlights
Speaker 1: because it's like this always chasing panicle. This is my
Speaker 1: life and we live like this like I ain't slept
Speaker 1: the dates. What's up? Yeah, I'm gonna die, Like help
Speaker 1: me please literally literally something something's cats be losting cats
Speaker 1: listen cats out here for real. But it's because it's yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think that makes it that makes
Speaker 1: it tough because you can't be You're not gonna sit
Speaker 1: there and read some Carter Guard and be listening to
Speaker 1: uh do somebody, you know what I mean, why not?
Speaker 1: Because it's just it's just taking me out of my space, yo,
Speaker 1: Like you know what I mean. I mean, I feel
Speaker 1: like something that draws me to hip hop is that
Speaker 1: it is like it's like putting together a puzzle or no,
Speaker 1: it's like an impression. It's like an impressionist painting, right,
Speaker 1: So like you start off up really up close and
Speaker 1: you see all of the very the lines that are
Speaker 1: you're not really seeing the full picture or whatever. You know,
Speaker 1: you put it on in the background and it's just
Speaker 1: like noise and even if you enjoy or the noise,
Speaker 1: the cadence is good, whatever, you know, it's this is
Speaker 1: the ambience and then what time, Well, what I ideally
Speaker 1: seek out is that with time you sort of like,
Speaker 1: oh I got that metaphor, Oh I just picked up
Speaker 1: on that punchline. Oh that's hilarious. How you know this analogy, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying you could potentially there's probably people
Speaker 1: that do for you. However, maybe take you out of
Speaker 1: it a little bit just because of the artistry. The
Speaker 1: artistry isn't there for you for some of this because
Speaker 1: some of these cats. You know, I used to hate
Speaker 1: those punch line rappers, you know what I mean, because
Speaker 1: it was just sorry and easy, yo. Like, for the
Speaker 1: most part, most rappers aren't gonna aren't producing records that
Speaker 1: you can that that can like suffice throughout different modes
Speaker 1: of a day, week, year, or life term. Right every
Speaker 1: now and again, some are and maybe you can put
Speaker 1: it together over the course of like a discography, right,
Speaker 1: Like I always say, Jada kiss Has is one of
Speaker 1: the few rappers that had bars that you can build
Speaker 1: their life off of. Right, Like, you can tell your
Speaker 1: kid to listen to this and they'll know how to
Speaker 1: live as a human, right, Uh, everybody's a snake, So
Speaker 1: I gotta keep the grass cut so I see him
Speaker 1: when they come, and then I heat they up, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's an incredible record, like be on your p's
Speaker 1: and ques, you know what I mean. Like he has
Speaker 1: those kind of bars. But for the most part, most
Speaker 1: of these guys, it just it's the highlights and it's
Speaker 1: just too much. And then and then and then the
Speaker 1: young ladies. They're just talking too much, too much wild stuff.
Speaker 1: I took some vows about four years ago. You know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I don't I don't need all that
Speaker 1: sexual energy in my life. I don't leave that life,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like all that I'm going
Speaker 1: to the club, you know what I mean. I don't drink.
Speaker 1: I wake up at four thirty. I'm vegan. I drink
Speaker 1: board and tea. Like I want to listen to something
Speaker 1: that kind of is consistent with my lifestyle. Now, I'm
Speaker 1: not being real if I'm listening to this. And he
Speaker 1: taught me to be real. Yes, yes, And so you
Speaker 1: may not be listening to like post work while you
Speaker 1: read Perfect Guard, But what are you listening to while
Speaker 1: you read what the soundtrack, what's your soundtracking? What's your
Speaker 1: reading list right now? Um? Okay? So uh shout out
Speaker 1: to the homie Paul Uh. He came to a session,
Speaker 1: to a two part workshop I was doing with represent
Speaker 1: Georgia and Black there was I was on. We was
Speaker 1: like it was like a little date night, like, oh,
Speaker 1: let's put it on, like, oh, let's watch Travis. He
Speaker 1: was sitting on the couching and popcorn. Yeah, but he
Speaker 1: was on. He was in the chat asking yea, he
Speaker 1: was actually in the chat saying the chat being mad nerdy,
Speaker 1: asking questions about super nerdy. But it was a good question.
Speaker 1: It was a dope question, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But but like, so I'm coming fresh off of that.
Speaker 1: We finished it last night, So coming fresh off of that.
Speaker 1: Like most of my reading, it's been about that. And Um,
Speaker 1: I put together these little playlists and you know, they've
Speaker 1: been sending the playlist out, people been subscribing to it.
Speaker 1: That's cool, But it's mostly old school because that's mostly
Speaker 1: what I listened to. So I think, UM, Curtis by
Speaker 1: Curtis Mayfield. I've been bumping pretty pretty hard lately. UM
Speaker 1: Abbey Row by the Beatles. I've been bumping real hard lately. Um,
Speaker 1: let me see, Uh you know I Want You by
Speaker 1: by Marvin Gaye. Um. And then Otis Ready has a
Speaker 1: song on the Soul album called Cigarettes and Coffee because
Speaker 1: he remember on them old school songs and old black
Speaker 1: dudes and them old songs. Was really funny because they
Speaker 1: will always tell you what time of data song was
Speaker 1: supposed to represent. It's early in the morning. The son yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't work telling you where they're like what time
Speaker 1: it is. I don't know why that careful. Leslie's white
Speaker 1: folks know like, oh, he's gonna be at the He's
Speaker 1: gonna be at the arena. Why it's so relevant to
Speaker 1: how they construct songs, But it always was like it's
Speaker 1: just like when you're listen to Stevie, right, Like Stevie
Speaker 1: songs in the Key of Life, inter visions, incredible records,
Speaker 1: and to me, all of this is hip hop. Like
Speaker 1: that's the beautiful thing about hip hop because name name
Speaker 1: name one of the artists that I mentioned that ain't
Speaker 1: been sampled by a classic himpop record, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, galling whoever? Right, But when you listen to Stevie,
Speaker 1: Stevie is always for a blind man. Is always referencing uh,
Speaker 1: the seasons and particularly season change, right, which is interesting
Speaker 1: because what he observes as a song right where he
Speaker 1: communicates us through his through his lyrics, it's like he
Speaker 1: can see it. He's not talking about like the smell
Speaker 1: of autumn. He's always talking about something you would have
Speaker 1: had to visually see, right, Like it's wild man when
Speaker 1: you think about what he's saying. But so in in
Speaker 1: uh in preparing for that, uh and doing you know what,
Speaker 1: I will share a book list that I did with them,
Speaker 1: and this was pretty dope stuff. So that so the
Speaker 1: session was about power, right, So um, it was kind
Speaker 1: of what do you want to get into that if
Speaker 1: you want to talk to us a little bit about
Speaker 1: what you presented on Yeah, yeah, it was. It was
Speaker 1: a session about power, which was kind of an offshoot
Speaker 1: of a conversation I was having with the with the
Speaker 1: Freedom Riders over at um Ebony's a Baptist, uh and
Speaker 1: maybe two months ago so I was covering with them
Speaker 1: the Forms of Power by Thomas C. Wardenburg. Uh. This
Speaker 1: is an incredible record. Uh. Michelle o'cock discipline and punish
Speaker 1: always uh, you know, very deeply influential in the abolitionist movement.
Speaker 1: You and I are always talking going over that. The
Speaker 1: Struggle for Recognition by Alex Haunter actual hanted. Um. And
Speaker 1: you know I'm always busting up neo liberalism Undoing the
Speaker 1: Demos by Wendy Brown. No book captures it better really
Speaker 1: just the description of the ethos of neoliberalism. Uh. The
Speaker 1: ethics of identity by Farming Anthony of Pie. Uh. There's
Speaker 1: some scholars doing some like critical thinking on identity. This guy,
Speaker 1: I think it takes the most comprehensive approach. Maybe not
Speaker 1: the most critical in every way. Maybe it's said whatever. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then um also was covering with them the Unpolitics
Speaker 1: of air Pollution by Matthew Crinson. Uh. And so the
Speaker 1: Unpolitics and air pollution is this case study that was
Speaker 1: public what covers a time from the seventies. Don't want
Speaker 1: to say it was published like in the late seven Um,
Speaker 1: it was a relatively hard to find book, I mean
Speaker 1: not really just made it and so it Uh. The
Speaker 1: case study is, uh, Samon's how the City of East
Speaker 1: Chicago versus Gary, Indiana. I don't know if ever been
Speaker 1: a Gary shout out to my dolts. Pretty years. By
Speaker 1: the way, by the way, Alfredo, look at Alfredo, ain't
Speaker 1: playing look at me, Look at me. Alfredo was on
Speaker 1: point and shout out to Freddy Gibbs. And so the
Speaker 1: Unpolitics and air Pollution covers how Gary versus how each
Speaker 1: Chicago handle the air pollution issue in the early seventies, right,
Speaker 1: and and what it what? What this book really teaches us,
Speaker 1: which is become like such a such a key element
Speaker 1: to how I approach, how I approach The most important
Speaker 1: elements to to talk to others about from an educator
Speaker 1: as an educator is uh, start a fight, right, don't
Speaker 1: affoid a fight. Don't let these people get away with
Speaker 1: not putting a fist up against you. Make it, make it,
Speaker 1: make a real fight, call questions to to call things out,
Speaker 1: like really make a fight, because people are gonna always
Speaker 1: try to dodge stuff, you know what I mean. It's
Speaker 1: just like you know that commission you said on it's something,
Speaker 1: it's some wild stuff was happening and at other meaning
Speaker 1: when it was passing at that field to when y'all
Speaker 1: was passing, uh, the approval for the homeless encampment, that
Speaker 1: was some wild stuff. People were saying, right, but they
Speaker 1: also was avoiding getting to the heart of the question,
Speaker 1: which is you know, I wasn't going there to make
Speaker 1: no comment. Is just I'm listening to three hours of
Speaker 1: people saying crazy, why stuff homeless people, lady and nearish
Speaker 1: and more contacts for the listeners. I may not have
Speaker 1: brought this up in an episode recently um or got
Speaker 1: into detail on this, but in Athens we recently improved
Speaker 1: approved uh uh, going about coming up with a strategic
Speaker 1: plan for homelessness, you know, from starting with having a
Speaker 1: station in Camper for people who were experience and criminalizations
Speaker 1: for living outside actually have a place where they can go,
Speaker 1: also as a hub for services, um etcetera. But also
Speaker 1: you know, working all the way through, how do we
Speaker 1: how do we want to build out our permanent support
Speaker 1: of housing in Athens, etcetera, so that you know, we
Speaker 1: address the actual issue, the fact that people ain't got
Speaker 1: no place to live and not the quote unquote. And
Speaker 1: the thing is, the thing is that was coming that's
Speaker 1: come to of that meeting was that people were receiving
Speaker 1: homeless people as homeless people as the problem and not
Speaker 1: it's not. It's yeah, now that they were the product
Speaker 1: of the actual problem, which is capitalism. But you know
Speaker 1: that housing is not a human righting, you know, And
Speaker 1: and I think, like that's that's the crazy thing, like
Speaker 1: making making a fight happen. Right, So so, um, those
Speaker 1: books I have been spending a lot of time with
Speaker 1: but on a normal yeall read you know, anywhere from
Speaker 1: seventy five to eighty something books this year. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to aid a hundred, but I don't know if I
Speaker 1: really hit a hundred, but um, you know, I give
Speaker 1: it a shot. Oh yeah, you're slacking. You're not gonna
Speaker 1: hit a hundred. I'm ashamed to you now that into
Speaker 1: our conversation, Travis, I'm embarrassed by you for not reading
Speaker 1: a hundred books. You're only gonna read eighty in the year.
Speaker 1: I mean, but know you my main thing is like,
Speaker 1: am I using my time efficiently? Right? Like? Am I
Speaker 1: am I being effect it with my time? Is? And um,
Speaker 1: you know we gotta have downtime or whatever. But like
Speaker 1: I've dedicated my life to service and it's it's uh,
Speaker 1: it is. It is deeply meaningful to me. And I
Speaker 1: have clear boundaries, so I don't need as much time
Speaker 1: is even some time, I think, but you know, I
Speaker 1: play outside. It's a couple of things I think humans need, right.
Speaker 1: One of those is recreation, right, and I think you
Speaker 1: should play outside every day, right, Um. And physicality helps
Speaker 1: me distress, right, not necessarily like cardio or lifting or
Speaker 1: anything in particular, but physicality helps me distress. And so
Speaker 1: that's that's usually how I how I take on recreation,
Speaker 1: whether that's bike, whether that's walking, whether that's jogging with
Speaker 1: the sprint, whether that's whatever. And uh, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: people need uh meaningful vocation. I'm always engaged in meaningful vocation. Uh.
Speaker 1: People need education. I try to These are different things
Speaker 1: I try to do every day, and over the course
Speaker 1: of the day it gets pretty full. So with things
Speaker 1: being sometimes, uh, if I reades a day, I should
Speaker 1: be able to tackle a hundred books, do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Seventy five is like normal, right? Um?
Speaker 1: And and I just uh, it's a it's a lot
Speaker 1: that I wonder about about justice, like you know, Kenna
Speaker 1: d A B progressive could restorative justice of a word?
Speaker 1: Am I being ridiculous about abolition? Right? And that and
Speaker 1: that requires a lot of feeding myself with information and
Speaker 1: trying to think through what else do you think is
Speaker 1: like so with regards, so you got into a little
Speaker 1: bit of like talking about the elements of a good life,
Speaker 1: good vocation, opportunity to simulate the mind, etcetera. So how
Speaker 1: much of I'm really interested because you also operate this ministry, um,
Speaker 1: so how much of like, how do you see like
Speaker 1: provision of those of those both material like the basis
Speaker 1: people need and creation of his opportunities for for people
Speaker 1: to thrive as a part of the organizing needs to
Speaker 1: happen in order for us to push for power. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, the ultimate the ultimate question is this, right,
Speaker 1: So always start with groups, uh when when talking to
Speaker 1: them about power rights, to understand the difference between state
Speaker 1: institutions and people. Right, the state is the is this
Speaker 1: whole organized society? Right? This our our version of organized society. Right?
Speaker 1: So the government uh And and this is something that
Speaker 1: you know, you and I talked about a lot during
Speaker 1: the protest. But just to get people to understand it,
Speaker 1: stops saying that the state has a monopoly on violence.
Speaker 1: They have more than that. They have a monopoly on force. Right,
Speaker 1: forces a lot broader than just violence and Vatcanda rent
Speaker 1: Uh says that you know where there's violence there's not power.
Speaker 1: Whether it's power, there's not violence. She argues that power
Speaker 1: is consentral, right, but that's not really relevant. But I'm
Speaker 1: just saying like it's more than just you know violence, right,
Speaker 1: like violence is a you in a dysfunctional state. As
Speaker 1: a usually the state can use coercion and get us
Speaker 1: to do what we what they want us to do, right,
Speaker 1: they don't have to do all them So getting people
Speaker 1: to understand that. And institutions are they mediate the needs
Speaker 1: of the people in the interests of the state. Right, Uh,
Speaker 1: the interests of the state are usually protection conservation, hence
Speaker 1: the term conservative. Right, that's usually the interests of the
Speaker 1: state and institutions mediate. And then the people, uh, you
Speaker 1: know people here the term the multitude, right, that's that's
Speaker 1: like a melting pot type term. But the people is
Speaker 1: uh is there is persons working uh together or represented
Speaker 1: together or of you together? Right. We just got the
Speaker 1: the new census stuff came out yesterday, and you know,
Speaker 1: look around in these districts in Georgia, look at the
Speaker 1: shrinking districts there. There are a lot of the big
Speaker 1: time white power players in the general Assembly districts are
Speaker 1: shrinking for a lot of different reasons. Number one, the
Speaker 1: point in time is August any what was going on COVID,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, or you know April or
Speaker 1: whatever the specific one is. So you got some of
Speaker 1: that going but you think you think that, I mean
Speaker 1: obviously the sense it informs the Jerry Mandarin or informs
Speaker 1: the redistrict in which becomes Jerry Mandarin as a as
Speaker 1: a you know, systemic manipulation on us. And so I
Speaker 1: just you know, I don't know, I went off on
Speaker 1: a tangent, that's all. It's all. Yeah, so's talking about
Speaker 1: my conscious you know that consciousness I'm talking about. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: like like the material providing a material supports for people
Speaker 1: to then build like the various kinds of power, and
Speaker 1: you got into like, well what is like where is power?
Speaker 1: Power is not just agitating for the state to do
Speaker 1: this or that. It's institutional power as well. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's and it's completely relational, right, you only have power
Speaker 1: in relation to something else, ideally in the social world,
Speaker 1: other people. Right. But like if you're living on a
Speaker 1: deserted island or a void, let's say that you're living
Speaker 1: a boyd where it's just white walls, white shoes. No,
Speaker 1: you can't even perceive clothes because you've never seen close.
Speaker 1: There is no power. Power can't be had in an
Speaker 1: empty void of nothing. Now you pop in another person
Speaker 1: into that void. And because you know the secret place
Speaker 1: in the void where you can sneak in and be
Speaker 1: around black light is that white light, you have power,
Speaker 1: uh of information that you could use to course influence
Speaker 1: and even force that person to do stuff. Right. So
Speaker 1: it's completely it's completely relational, you know. And so when
Speaker 1: I when I'm thinking about, like even the work I
Speaker 1: do an these different in these different spheres, whether it
Speaker 1: be h with the church or or chess community or
Speaker 1: just general activism or as a writer or educator. What
Speaker 1: worries me most sometimes is the work uh is charitable
Speaker 1: work through organizations, churches or anything of the sort, right,
Speaker 1: because we run the risk of the charity like giving
Speaker 1: government a dodge to not do nothing. Right. Oh, the
Speaker 1: charity is gonna need you. No, that's the that's the
Speaker 1: work of the government. You know, the state is supposed
Speaker 1: to take care of you. I don't know what y'all think,
Speaker 1: just this state is supposed to do, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? They want the state to just be like
Speaker 1: administrative bureaucracy to help them get uh to to exploit
Speaker 1: new new students or new workers or whatever. It's like,
Speaker 1: this is all crazy, you know what I mean? In
Speaker 1: the time we got less um this comes out on
Speaker 1: their on Thursdays generally, So what what kind of I
Speaker 1: know when the podcast come out? Hold you listen to
Speaker 1: the show Man, So you went on that hiatus and
Speaker 1: it missed me up? Now would be nervous you listen
Speaker 1: to the show. I'm like Ship Travis's probably think I'm
Speaker 1: a dumbass, Like what's you talking about this you're doing?
Speaker 1: Sometimes I want you to really get into it, you
Speaker 1: know the big Yeah, I know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a different approach, right Like I
Speaker 1: would I want to see more granular stuff, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. But but I love what y'all doing.
Speaker 1: But actually, I mean I asking different questions than I
Speaker 1: was planning to do. You went over a lot of
Speaker 1: different books that you've been reading or planning engaging with, um,
Speaker 1: you know, with the So what would you say right
Speaker 1: now is the most urgent thing you would like a
Speaker 1: listener to go out and read? And why? Like what
Speaker 1: is what why is that particular piece of political now,
Speaker 1: because it's really really saily in the urgent, in the moment, right. Um,
Speaker 1: I would probably say the first thing, the first thing
Speaker 1: anybody has to do, I think is always consider what
Speaker 1: is justice right? Like you know is generally uh, the
Speaker 1: first question I started with what is justice right? And
Speaker 1: you to answer that question, I think you have to
Speaker 1: answer a bunch of other questions, right, But but so
Speaker 1: what where I think someone needs to start out like
Speaker 1: it'll be It'll be young men, young women, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Sometimes my age who want to come
Speaker 1: and collaborated, like can I come hang around, find something
Speaker 1: to do? And I'm like, all right, we'll go uh
Speaker 1: read this, read that, reread this right and and a
Speaker 1: lot of times I try to start them with our
Speaker 1: Prisons Obsolete and by Angela Davis to to just um, yeah,
Speaker 1: incredible book, uh really the source of my uh kind
Speaker 1: of my anchoring and the abolitionist movement Abolition to Struggle
Speaker 1: Go and gulag uh Is also is also an incredible work,
Speaker 1: but by Ruth Guilmore and um and and and so
Speaker 1: I would say start there to begin to understand the
Speaker 1: how different systems interflate with one another and to ask
Speaker 1: yourself questions that we take for granted, right, Like, prisons
Speaker 1: as we understand them may have been around that long.
Speaker 1: Did you know that? Probably not? Okay, so you don't
Speaker 1: take that for granted. We can Prison was wasn't innovation? Right?
Speaker 1: Prison was the innovation. Prison was an innovation. That was
Speaker 1: them stepping up and saying, oh, it's just things differently.
Speaker 1: Let's be well to stop hanging people in the in
Speaker 1: the courtyard. Yeah, leaving people on the stocks and ship
Speaker 1: up too much. We're gonna do we were capable. If
Speaker 1: we were capable of making that transition, we can also
Speaker 1: we are capable of transitioning away of a new innovation. Right.
Speaker 1: And so I would say I would say start there.
Speaker 1: I would say, UM Spheares of Justice by Michael Walzer,
Speaker 1: I would say start there. I would say, if somebody
Speaker 1: is really interested in um and and digging into some
Speaker 1: digging into some heavy work, uh, those are those are
Speaker 1: the places to start and kind of kind of think
Speaker 1: through olds. But I would say that the best the
Speaker 1: best education is feeding yourself through uh, through that information,
Speaker 1: but also being out here in the streets, because what
Speaker 1: you see is you see all this suffering in all
Speaker 1: this pain. This week, hunted families came through hunting. More
Speaker 1: than a hundred families came through the food cantry right
Speaker 1: this week, uh two or three. One social worker at
Speaker 1: the schools, one essentially homeless outreach social worker at at
Speaker 1: at MANTAGE, and another just kind of random person all
Speaker 1: reached out with families who are in desperate need a house.
Speaker 1: And fortunately, because of the support that our congregation gives
Speaker 1: to this particular ministry and then just generally, we were
Speaker 1: able to help him. Right But like, um, we we
Speaker 1: didn't have to, you know what I mean, Like they
Speaker 1: could have been out there, I could have never found out.
Speaker 1: They could have never found out that people that reached
Speaker 1: out could have never found out. So being out here
Speaker 1: in the street and seeing this and and you know,
Speaker 1: seeing and suffering, I think is incredibly informational with particularly
Speaker 1: when you put it with the book, right when you
Speaker 1: put it with this book at that book are kind
Speaker 1: of a kind of thinking through those But I would
Speaker 1: say I would say that's what I would saying, Well,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you bringing us back to practice, not just
Speaker 1: like oh, just reading about it, but actually being about it.
Speaker 1: If you're not if you're not really really doing it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? It feels different. It's like
Speaker 1: if you just if you only recording songs in your
Speaker 1: in your room, and then like let's say they're popping
Speaker 1: on the internet. People are listening to your songs, but
Speaker 1: you've never performed them, right, You have a whole different
Speaker 1: set of expectations for how you want to beat the sound,
Speaker 1: how you want to mix the sound. Do you want
Speaker 1: like you know, I don't know if you saw that
Speaker 1: locks uh dip set that or whatever versus. I didn't
Speaker 1: watch it. I watched a couple of flips, but um,
Speaker 1: that's because Kevin shout out to uh, shout out, shout
Speaker 1: out your son too, what's bugging me about? What's bugging
Speaker 1: me about the thing? Because he loved the battles. So
Speaker 1: you know, I took a look at it and it's
Speaker 1: crazy because the tip said was performing with the vocals
Speaker 1: on the track, Like, dude, what are you doing? This
Speaker 1: is ain't you know. Jada was saying, this ain't hip
Speaker 1: hop and it ain't right. But but your expectations for
Speaker 1: like even what your songs need to be as different
Speaker 1: once you start performing, you know what I mean? How
Speaker 1: many times. You know, I seen somebody in the first
Speaker 1: show and they froze. They was tough guy on the
Speaker 1: on the mic and not a froze, right because it's
Speaker 1: a it's a whole different element. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: I love that analogy. Perfect way to end off our conversation, Travis.
Speaker 1: I can people get in touch with you? Is there
Speaker 1: a way people can stay in touch with the absolutely
Speaker 1: email me. I teach it a lot of different places,
Speaker 1: with a lot of different black organizations and in justice
Speaker 1: money organizations in the region. I can't think of any
Speaker 1: thing right now, uh, because a lot of dates are
Speaker 1: up in the air. But they can email me at
Speaker 1: the Williams Project at gmail dot com at Williams like
Speaker 1: my last names of I L I M. S Project,
Speaker 1: R O J E C T in the projects at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. So the Williams Project at gmail dot
Speaker 1: com say in touch with the kids Waiting on Reparations
Speaker 1: was the production of I Heeart Radio. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, check out the heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your body. Yes,