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Speaker 1: Hey, yo, you're listening to Waiting on Reparations, a production

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Speaker 1: of my heart radio step Tortia, And I'll take a

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Speaker 1: step backwards because I don't fight my hate this and

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Speaker 1: what the fucking hat? So all I ask them to

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Speaker 1: look past it and be mature of that. I'm passive,

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Speaker 1: but that don't mean that I'm a fucking cat boy

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Speaker 1: like Martin Luther Mahatma Gandhi. I use my words to

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Speaker 1: settle my conflicts rather than try to shoot you up

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Speaker 1: in cool bruts, rather stand beside you them, invite you,

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Speaker 1: and a rather understanding than that never happened tried to

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Speaker 1: all Right, this week, I am so enthused and honored

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Speaker 1: frankly to be joined by my comrade, my colleague, my mentor.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Travis Williams. Uh, Travis, I don't even

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Speaker 1: know how to properly introduce you, because you have such

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Speaker 1: a range of expertises and experiences, So telling people a

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Speaker 1: little bit about yourself. Who are you? Um? A black

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Speaker 1: man vegan Uh originally from for a lot of deal Florida.

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Speaker 1: Uh It's tough when I say originally, right, So I'm

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Speaker 1: from a lot of Florida, but I was born so

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Speaker 1: maybe that's my origin story. But I considered the origin

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Speaker 1: story wherever, like your most uh meaningful roots were set right.

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Speaker 1: But I was born in Atlanta, Georgia. Did my undergraduate

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Speaker 1: work at d Florida Agriculture and Mechanical University, home of

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Speaker 1: the mighty Ratler's Orange Green eight seven October three. I

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Speaker 1: love my HBCU, you know what I mean, check it

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Speaker 1: out orangr green. Um and then oh yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: I always rap. And you know my high school colors

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Speaker 1: was orange green as well because our first football coach

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Speaker 1: it's also a Wraptler. So um. And I went to

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Speaker 1: this high school called Lanchile High School, which was one

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Speaker 1: of the two biggest black high schools in Broward County.

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Speaker 1: And you know, browartt is the most black, most Democrat county,

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Speaker 1: or was when I was growing up in all of

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Speaker 1: the state of Florida. And Miss Elie fought real hard

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Speaker 1: to make sure that a little black is like me.

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Speaker 1: He educated and her home is now a museum. It's

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Speaker 1: about maybe a two minute walk from my grandfather's house.

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Speaker 1: So uh he passed away, but his old house and

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Speaker 1: so um, so yeah that is that. I did my

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Speaker 1: legal studies at the University of Georgia. UM was a

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Speaker 1: public defender for a long time, had a had an

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Speaker 1: epic mental breakdown, uh myself epic, Hey, if I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do it, it's gonna be happy. If we're gonna break down, down,

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Speaker 1: do it, break everything, break all the windows, and so

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Speaker 1: uh found myself homeless and and and really uh really

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Speaker 1: really suffering and in painful about two plus years. And

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Speaker 1: then the last six years five years, I've been um

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Speaker 1: uh began reinvesting uh in in community and community organized

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Speaker 1: and I've been organizing work since I was fifteens, you know,

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Speaker 1: and so uh so over the last uh five and

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Speaker 1: a half so six years, been been back doing that.

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Speaker 1: And I've been fortunate enough to you know, have been

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Speaker 1: invited to be at all all these different universities and

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Speaker 1: going these different things and so um uh so it's

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Speaker 1: it's not unfamiliar. And then like so now I do

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Speaker 1: a lot of community education and political education um at

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Speaker 1: a grassroots level aimed at uh mobilizing people, assisting them

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Speaker 1: and organizing for political action. And so I also do

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Speaker 1: work out of out earn this little ministry at at

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Speaker 1: a little medium sized church. Uh. And my church is

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Speaker 1: coven to Presbyterium ministry is the uh uh neighborhood ministries,

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Speaker 1: which is it doesn't just two words that don't make

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Speaker 1: sense until you know it is we're doing. And so

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Speaker 1: it's helping people stay house, defeating people. I'm sitting in

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Speaker 1: the I'm sitting in the fellowship haul down. This is

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Speaker 1: where we were in the food pantry or clothing closet.

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Speaker 1: We're moving things out of here is the uh trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out a different model. But um also uh

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Speaker 1: minister and manager but neevolence accounts. So helping people where

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Speaker 1: they can and using uh Jesus ministry with the poor

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Speaker 1: to God our efforts to assist people. I noticed, and

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Speaker 1: all of that, you somehow managed to not bring up

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Speaker 1: hip hop at all? Do you have relationship to hip hop?

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Speaker 1: All this dope ship, all this other dope ship is

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Speaker 1: so dope that it's not even worth bringing up that.

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Speaker 1: Not even bringing up that your south far you are

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Speaker 1: a penman. Well, you know something, I had some records

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Speaker 1: that at one time, uh you know, had had some

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Speaker 1: little had some little heat to it. But I I

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Speaker 1: just I love I do love hip hop. But you

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Speaker 1: know what, though I really don't listen to hip hop

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Speaker 1: anymore and and it definitely not like sometimes I get

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Speaker 1: nostalgic and and don't get me wrong, Race the five

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Speaker 1: nine even now, like the way he puts together a sentence,

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Speaker 1: his art right, and I appreciate the art um and

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Speaker 1: I listened here there you know, uh fly God is

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Speaker 1: an awesome god. West side gun you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like you know, pray for Paris? Uh you know? Um

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Speaker 1: uh what what are you called? Kama Kaze? Like I

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Speaker 1: listened to. I still listen to some sometimes, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's tough, man, It's tough to listen to it

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Speaker 1: some of the music. Like you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we I think you and I have

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Speaker 1: talked about this before. I think hip hop, I think

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Speaker 1: any art form right has to have gate keepers. Right,

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Speaker 1: has to have people that make people do the work

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Speaker 1: to get good at something right. And hip hop has

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Speaker 1: the least amount of gate keepers, but it used to

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Speaker 1: have the most. Right. It was you had to run through,

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Speaker 1: like when I was a kid trying to learn how

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Speaker 1: to wrap, you know what I mean, Like I had

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to wrap, and then I had

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Speaker 1: to be brave enough to wrap on the school bus

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Speaker 1: and then if you heard I could wrap it, and

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Speaker 1: it was like you gotta wrap against this other guy

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Speaker 1: who can crap. And then I'll go, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'll be rapping at the crackhouse with some

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Speaker 1: with some dope and rappers about stuff and then binge

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Speaker 1: and it's like all of this stuff you get good at,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And now you don't gotta like,

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Speaker 1: you don't gotta put in the work, you don't gotta

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Speaker 1: do nothing. You just so you never really get better,

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Speaker 1: you never really master the crap, you see what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: And so it's it's tough for me to listen to

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Speaker 1: somebody who ain't even investing in mastering the crack. So

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Speaker 1: it is come from a place of craftsmanship and not

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Speaker 1: necessarily like from a place as an organizer, and that's

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Speaker 1: someone that is pushing back against systems of capital and

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Speaker 1: of racial capital, etcetera. Like the way that that is

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Speaker 1: all uh then shaping the genre and what ends up

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Speaker 1: floating up to the surface is what we then consider

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Speaker 1: a mainstream. Does that adds? Does that at all influence

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Speaker 1: like your how how you partaking hip hop? Commarly the

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Speaker 1: craftsmanship thing let's think about what an album is. Right,

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Speaker 1: an album is forty five to our some change the

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Speaker 1: hell album you're listening to. That's an hour long album.

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Speaker 1: Come on now, come on now. I was reading recently

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Speaker 1: that the like the top the last ten years, like

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Speaker 1: the top albums of the year in hip hop for all,

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Speaker 1: like thirty minutes long. But that's weak, and you know

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Speaker 1: I hate that. No, think about think about right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: by Outcast undisputably an incredible record, right, undisputable? Right? So climen, Now,

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Speaker 1: what did they take them to three years to make

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Speaker 1: that record? Let me see uh uh Southern player lists

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Speaker 1: that came out ninety three or ninety four, maybe ninety five,

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Speaker 1: I can't remember. Two years later you had uh, you

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Speaker 1: had a Tiens, and then maybe two or three years

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Speaker 1: later you had incuntically right, And so in then two

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Speaker 1: year time period, right. I heard nas want to say

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Speaker 1: this in a in a source article like maybe the

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Speaker 1: late nineties. He said that first album is the easiest

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Speaker 1: because it took you eighteen years, right for twenty two years,

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Speaker 1: right to have Old You were right. It's those the

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Speaker 1: hard albums the next one because you don't have as

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Speaker 1: much time to write end the precious change. The choice

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Speaker 1: structure is different in center, structures different. Right, So when

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Speaker 1: when I look at like what an album is an album?

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Speaker 1: Generally people write songs about the highlights of their life, right,

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Speaker 1: Like each song is a highlight on an amalgamation of highlights.

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Speaker 1: So if you look at Marvin Gaye, I Want You

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Speaker 1: right the record I want you incredible records, it's all

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Speaker 1: about being in love and expressing that love intimately sexually right,

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Speaker 1: beautiful record beautiful. But these are all highlights sexual experiences.

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Speaker 1: These aren't the ones that he had with This ain't

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Speaker 1: like the random Thursday when he just got off work

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Speaker 1: and brought home. This ain't the one lady got woke

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Speaker 1: up because the baby woke up, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's just the highlights, right, So I expect someone to

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Speaker 1: to offer their highlights, But um what what used to

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Speaker 1: be the highlights in hip hop music? Used to be

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Speaker 1: the highlights of like liberation, right, and liberation rejecting restrictions, right,

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Speaker 1: and then now the highlights are I don't know, transactional monetary.

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Speaker 1: It's like I can't I can't handle that, right, Like

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Speaker 1: it's just too much. Yeah, and I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, we go out, we party every night,

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Speaker 1: every night we have it's not it isn't the highlights

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Speaker 1: because it's like this always chasing panicle. This is my

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Speaker 1: life and we live like this like I ain't slept

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Speaker 1: the dates. What's up? Yeah, I'm gonna die, Like help

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Speaker 1: me please literally literally something something's cats be losting cats

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Speaker 1: listen cats out here for real. But it's because it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I think that makes it that makes

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Speaker 1: it tough because you can't be You're not gonna sit

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Speaker 1: there and read some Carter Guard and be listening to

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Speaker 1: uh do somebody, you know what I mean, why not?

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Speaker 1: Because it's just it's just taking me out of my space, yo,

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Speaker 1: Like you know what I mean. I mean, I feel

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Speaker 1: like something that draws me to hip hop is that

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Speaker 1: it is like it's like putting together a puzzle or no,

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Speaker 1: it's like an impression. It's like an impressionist painting, right,

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Speaker 1: So like you start off up really up close and

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Speaker 1: you see all of the very the lines that are

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Speaker 1: you're not really seeing the full picture or whatever. You know,

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Speaker 1: you put it on in the background and it's just

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Speaker 1: like noise and even if you enjoy or the noise,

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Speaker 1: the cadence is good, whatever, you know, it's this is

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Speaker 1: the ambience and then what time, Well, what I ideally

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Speaker 1: seek out is that with time you sort of like,

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Speaker 1: oh I got that metaphor, Oh I just picked up

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Speaker 1: on that punchline. Oh that's hilarious. How you know this analogy, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just saying you could potentially there's probably people

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Speaker 1: that do for you. However, maybe take you out of

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Speaker 1: it a little bit just because of the artistry. The

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Speaker 1: artistry isn't there for you for some of this because

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Speaker 1: some of these cats. You know, I used to hate

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Speaker 1: those punch line rappers, you know what I mean, because

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Speaker 1: it was just sorry and easy, yo. Like, for the

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Speaker 1: most part, most rappers aren't gonna aren't producing records that

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Speaker 1: you can that that can like suffice throughout different modes

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Speaker 1: of a day, week, year, or life term. Right every

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Speaker 1: now and again, some are and maybe you can put

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Speaker 1: it together over the course of like a discography, right,

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Speaker 1: Like I always say, Jada kiss Has is one of

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Speaker 1: the few rappers that had bars that you can build

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Speaker 1: their life off of. Right, Like, you can tell your

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Speaker 1: kid to listen to this and they'll know how to

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Speaker 1: live as a human, right, Uh, everybody's a snake, So

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Speaker 1: I gotta keep the grass cut so I see him

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Speaker 1: when they come, and then I heat they up, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that's an incredible record, like be on your p's

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Speaker 1: and ques, you know what I mean. Like he has

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Speaker 1: those kind of bars. But for the most part, most

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Speaker 1: of these guys, it just it's the highlights and it's

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Speaker 1: just too much. And then and then and then the

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Speaker 1: young ladies. They're just talking too much, too much wild stuff.

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Speaker 1: I took some vows about four years ago. You know

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Speaker 1: what I mean. I don't I don't need all that

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Speaker 1: sexual energy in my life. I don't leave that life,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like all that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to the club, you know what I mean. I don't drink.

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Speaker 1: I wake up at four thirty. I'm vegan. I drink

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Speaker 1: board and tea. Like I want to listen to something

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Speaker 1: that kind of is consistent with my lifestyle. Now, I'm

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Speaker 1: not being real if I'm listening to this. And he

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Speaker 1: taught me to be real. Yes, yes, And so you

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Speaker 1: may not be listening to like post work while you

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Speaker 1: read Perfect Guard, But what are you listening to while

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Speaker 1: you read what the soundtrack, what's your soundtracking? What's your

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Speaker 1: reading list right now? Um? Okay? So uh shout out

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Speaker 1: to the homie Paul Uh. He came to a session,

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Speaker 1: to a two part workshop I was doing with represent

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Speaker 1: Georgia and Black there was I was on. We was

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Speaker 1: like it was like a little date night, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: let's put it on, like, oh, let's watch Travis. He

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Speaker 1: was sitting on the couching and popcorn. Yeah, but he

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Speaker 1: was on. He was in the chat asking yea, he

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Speaker 1: was actually in the chat saying the chat being mad nerdy,

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Speaker 1: asking questions about super nerdy. But it was a good question.

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Speaker 1: It was a dope question, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: But but like, so I'm coming fresh off of that.

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Speaker 1: We finished it last night, So coming fresh off of that.

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Speaker 1: Like most of my reading, it's been about that. And Um,

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Speaker 1: I put together these little playlists and you know, they've

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Speaker 1: been sending the playlist out, people been subscribing to it.

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Speaker 1: That's cool, But it's mostly old school because that's mostly

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Speaker 1: what I listened to. So I think, UM, Curtis by

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Speaker 1: Curtis Mayfield. I've been bumping pretty pretty hard lately. UM

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Speaker 1: Abbey Row by the Beatles. I've been bumping real hard lately. Um,

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Speaker 1: let me see, Uh you know I Want You by

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Speaker 1: by Marvin Gaye. Um. And then Otis Ready has a

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Speaker 1: song on the Soul album called Cigarettes and Coffee because

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Speaker 1: he remember on them old school songs and old black

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Speaker 1: dudes and them old songs. Was really funny because they

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Speaker 1: will always tell you what time of data song was

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Speaker 1: supposed to represent. It's early in the morning. The son yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't work telling you where they're like what time

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Speaker 1: it is. I don't know why that careful. Leslie's white

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Speaker 1: folks know like, oh, he's gonna be at the He's

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Speaker 1: gonna be at the arena. Why it's so relevant to

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Speaker 1: how they construct songs, But it always was like it's

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Speaker 1: just like when you're listen to Stevie, right, Like Stevie

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Speaker 1: songs in the Key of Life, inter visions, incredible records,

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Speaker 1: and to me, all of this is hip hop. Like

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Speaker 1: that's the beautiful thing about hip hop because name name

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Speaker 1: name one of the artists that I mentioned that ain't

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Speaker 1: been sampled by a classic himpop record, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, galling whoever? Right, But when you listen to Stevie,

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Speaker 1: Stevie is always for a blind man. Is always referencing uh,

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Speaker 1: the seasons and particularly season change, right, which is interesting

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Speaker 1: because what he observes as a song right where he

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Speaker 1: communicates us through his through his lyrics, it's like he

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Speaker 1: can see it. He's not talking about like the smell

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Speaker 1: of autumn. He's always talking about something you would have

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Speaker 1: had to visually see, right, Like it's wild man when

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Speaker 1: you think about what he's saying. But so in in

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Speaker 1: uh in preparing for that, uh and doing you know what,

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Speaker 1: I will share a book list that I did with them,

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Speaker 1: and this was pretty dope stuff. So that so the

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Speaker 1: session was about power, right, So um, it was kind

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Speaker 1: of what do you want to get into that if

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Speaker 1: you want to talk to us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: what you presented on Yeah, yeah, it was. It was

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Speaker 1: a session about power, which was kind of an offshoot

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Speaker 1: of a conversation I was having with the with the

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Speaker 1: Freedom Riders over at um Ebony's a Baptist, uh and

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Speaker 1: maybe two months ago so I was covering with them

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Speaker 1: the Forms of Power by Thomas C. Wardenburg. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is an incredible record. Uh. Michelle o'cock discipline and punish

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Speaker 1: always uh, you know, very deeply influential in the abolitionist movement.

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Speaker 1: You and I are always talking going over that. The

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Speaker 1: Struggle for Recognition by Alex Haunter actual hanted. Um. And

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Speaker 1: you know I'm always busting up neo liberalism Undoing the

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Speaker 1: Demos by Wendy Brown. No book captures it better really

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Speaker 1: just the description of the ethos of neoliberalism. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: ethics of identity by Farming Anthony of Pie. Uh. There's

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Speaker 1: some scholars doing some like critical thinking on identity. This guy,

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Speaker 1: I think it takes the most comprehensive approach. Maybe not

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Speaker 1: the most critical in every way. Maybe it's said whatever. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then um also was covering with them the Unpolitics

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Speaker 1: of air Pollution by Matthew Crinson. Uh. And so the

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Speaker 1: Unpolitics and air pollution is this case study that was

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Speaker 1: public what covers a time from the seventies. Don't want

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Speaker 1: to say it was published like in the late seven Um,

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Speaker 1: it was a relatively hard to find book, I mean

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Speaker 1: not really just made it and so it Uh. The

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Speaker 1: case study is, uh, Samon's how the City of East

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Speaker 1: Chicago versus Gary, Indiana. I don't know if ever been

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Speaker 1: a Gary shout out to my dolts. Pretty years. By

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Speaker 1: the way, by the way, Alfredo, look at Alfredo, ain't

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Speaker 1: playing look at me, Look at me. Alfredo was on

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Speaker 1: point and shout out to Freddy Gibbs. And so the

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Speaker 1: Unpolitics and air Pollution covers how Gary versus how each

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Speaker 1: Chicago handle the air pollution issue in the early seventies, right,

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Speaker 1: and and what it what? What this book really teaches us,

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Speaker 1: which is become like such a such a key element

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Speaker 1: to how I approach, how I approach The most important

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Speaker 1: elements to to talk to others about from an educator

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Speaker 1: as an educator is uh, start a fight, right, don't

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Speaker 1: affoid a fight. Don't let these people get away with

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Speaker 1: not putting a fist up against you. Make it, make it,

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Speaker 1: make a real fight, call questions to to call things out,

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Speaker 1: like really make a fight, because people are gonna always

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Speaker 1: try to dodge stuff, you know what I mean. It's

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Speaker 1: just like you know that commission you said on it's something,

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Speaker 1: it's some wild stuff was happening and at other meaning

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Speaker 1: when it was passing at that field to when y'all

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Speaker 1: was passing, uh, the approval for the homeless encampment, that

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Speaker 1: was some wild stuff. People were saying, right, but they

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Speaker 1: also was avoiding getting to the heart of the question,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, I wasn't going there to make

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Speaker 1: no comment. Is just I'm listening to three hours of

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Speaker 1: people saying crazy, why stuff homeless people, lady and nearish

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Speaker 1: and more contacts for the listeners. I may not have

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Speaker 1: brought this up in an episode recently um or got

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Speaker 1: into detail on this, but in Athens we recently improved

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Speaker 1: approved uh uh, going about coming up with a strategic

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Speaker 1: plan for homelessness, you know, from starting with having a

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Speaker 1: station in Camper for people who were experience and criminalizations

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Speaker 1: for living outside actually have a place where they can go,

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Speaker 1: also as a hub for services, um etcetera. But also

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Speaker 1: you know, working all the way through, how do we

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Speaker 1: how do we want to build out our permanent support

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Speaker 1: of housing in Athens, etcetera, so that you know, we

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Speaker 1: address the actual issue, the fact that people ain't got

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Speaker 1: no place to live and not the quote unquote. And

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Speaker 1: the thing is, the thing is that was coming that's

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Speaker 1: come to of that meeting was that people were receiving

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Speaker 1: homeless people as homeless people as the problem and not

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Speaker 1: it's not. It's yeah, now that they were the product

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Speaker 1: of the actual problem, which is capitalism. But you know

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Speaker 1: that housing is not a human righting, you know, And

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Speaker 1: and I think, like that's that's the crazy thing, like

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Speaker 1: making making a fight happen. Right, So so, um, those

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Speaker 1: books I have been spending a lot of time with

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Speaker 1: but on a normal yeall read you know, anywhere from

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Speaker 1: seventy five to eighty something books this year. I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to aid a hundred, but I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: really hit a hundred, but um, you know, I give

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Speaker 1: it a shot. Oh yeah, you're slacking. You're not gonna

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Speaker 1: hit a hundred. I'm ashamed to you now that into

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Speaker 1: our conversation, Travis, I'm embarrassed by you for not reading

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Speaker 1: a hundred books. You're only gonna read eighty in the year.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but know you my main thing is like,

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Speaker 1: am I using my time efficiently? Right? Like? Am I

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Speaker 1: am I being effect it with my time? Is? And um,

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Speaker 1: you know we gotta have downtime or whatever. But like

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Speaker 1: I've dedicated my life to service and it's it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it is. It is deeply meaningful to me. And I

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Speaker 1: have clear boundaries, so I don't need as much time

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Speaker 1: is even some time, I think, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: play outside. It's a couple of things I think humans need, right.

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Speaker 1: One of those is recreation, right, and I think you

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Speaker 1: should play outside every day, right, Um. And physicality helps

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Speaker 1: me distress, right, not necessarily like cardio or lifting or

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Speaker 1: anything in particular, but physicality helps me distress. And so

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Speaker 1: that's that's usually how I how I take on recreation,

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Speaker 1: whether that's bike, whether that's walking, whether that's jogging with

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Speaker 1: the sprint, whether that's whatever. And uh, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: people need uh meaningful vocation. I'm always engaged in meaningful vocation. Uh.

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Speaker 1: People need education. I try to These are different things

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Speaker 1: I try to do every day, and over the course

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Speaker 1: of the day it gets pretty full. So with things

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Speaker 1: being sometimes, uh, if I reades a day, I should

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Speaker 1: be able to tackle a hundred books, do you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? Seventy five is like normal, right? Um?

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Speaker 1: And and I just uh, it's a it's a lot

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Speaker 1: that I wonder about about justice, like you know, Kenna

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Speaker 1: d A B progressive could restorative justice of a word?

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Speaker 1: Am I being ridiculous about abolition? Right? And that and

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Speaker 1: that requires a lot of feeding myself with information and

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Speaker 1: trying to think through what else do you think is

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Speaker 1: like so with regards, so you got into a little

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Speaker 1: bit of like talking about the elements of a good life,

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Speaker 1: good vocation, opportunity to simulate the mind, etcetera. So how

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Speaker 1: much of I'm really interested because you also operate this ministry, um,

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Speaker 1: so how much of like, how do you see like

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Speaker 1: provision of those of those both material like the basis

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Speaker 1: people need and creation of his opportunities for for people

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Speaker 1: to thrive as a part of the organizing needs to

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Speaker 1: happen in order for us to push for power. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the ultimate the ultimate question is this, right,

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Speaker 1: So always start with groups, uh when when talking to

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Speaker 1: them about power rights, to understand the difference between state

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Speaker 1: institutions and people. Right, the state is the is this

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Speaker 1: whole organized society? Right? This our our version of organized society. Right?

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Speaker 1: So the government uh And and this is something that

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Speaker 1: you know, you and I talked about a lot during

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Speaker 1: the protest. But just to get people to understand it,

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Speaker 1: stops saying that the state has a monopoly on violence.

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Speaker 1: They have more than that. They have a monopoly on force. Right,

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Speaker 1: forces a lot broader than just violence and Vatcanda rent

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Speaker 1: Uh says that you know where there's violence there's not power.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's power, there's not violence. She argues that power

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Speaker 1: is consentral, right, but that's not really relevant. But I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying like it's more than just you know violence, right,

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Speaker 1: like violence is a you in a dysfunctional state. As

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Speaker 1: a usually the state can use coercion and get us

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Speaker 1: to do what we what they want us to do, right,

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Speaker 1: they don't have to do all them So getting people

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Speaker 1: to understand that. And institutions are they mediate the needs

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Speaker 1: of the people in the interests of the state. Right, Uh,

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Speaker 1: the interests of the state are usually protection conservation, hence

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Speaker 1: the term conservative. Right, that's usually the interests of the

424
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: state and institutions mediate. And then the people, uh, you

425
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: know people here the term the multitude, right, that's that's

426
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: like a melting pot type term. But the people is

427
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: uh is there is persons working uh together or represented

428
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: together or of you together? Right. We just got the

429
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 1: the new census stuff came out yesterday, and you know,

430
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: look around in these districts in Georgia, look at the

431
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: shrinking districts there. There are a lot of the big

432
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 1: time white power players in the general Assembly districts are

433
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: shrinking for a lot of different reasons. Number one, the

434
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: point in time is August any what was going on COVID,

435
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, or you know April or

436
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: whatever the specific one is. So you got some of

437
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: that going but you think you think that, I mean

438
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: obviously the sense it informs the Jerry Mandarin or informs

439
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: the redistrict in which becomes Jerry Mandarin as a as

440
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: a you know, systemic manipulation on us. And so I

441
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: just you know, I don't know, I went off on

442
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: a tangent, that's all. It's all. Yeah, so's talking about

443
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: my conscious you know that consciousness I'm talking about. Yeah, So,

444
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: like like the material providing a material supports for people

445
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: to then build like the various kinds of power, and

446
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: you got into like, well what is like where is power?

447
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: Power is not just agitating for the state to do

448
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: this or that. It's institutional power as well. Yeah, and

449
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: it's and it's completely relational, right, you only have power

450
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: in relation to something else, ideally in the social world,

451
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: other people. Right. But like if you're living on a

452
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: deserted island or a void, let's say that you're living

453
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: a boyd where it's just white walls, white shoes. No,

454
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: you can't even perceive clothes because you've never seen close.

455
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: There is no power. Power can't be had in an

456
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: empty void of nothing. Now you pop in another person

457
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: into that void. And because you know the secret place

458
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: in the void where you can sneak in and be

459
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 1: around black light is that white light, you have power,

460
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: uh of information that you could use to course influence

461
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: and even force that person to do stuff. Right. So

462
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: it's completely it's completely relational, you know. And so when

463
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: I when I'm thinking about, like even the work I

464
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: do an these different in these different spheres, whether it

465
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: be h with the church or or chess community or

466
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: just general activism or as a writer or educator. What

467
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: worries me most sometimes is the work uh is charitable

468
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: work through organizations, churches or anything of the sort, right,

469
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: because we run the risk of the charity like giving

470
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: government a dodge to not do nothing. Right. Oh, the

471
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: charity is gonna need you. No, that's the that's the

472
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: work of the government. You know, the state is supposed

473
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: to take care of you. I don't know what y'all think,

474
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: just this state is supposed to do, you know what

475
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: I mean? They want the state to just be like

476
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: administrative bureaucracy to help them get uh to to exploit

477
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: new new students or new workers or whatever. It's like,

478
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: this is all crazy, you know what I mean? In

479
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: the time we got less um this comes out on

480
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: their on Thursdays generally, So what what kind of I

481
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: know when the podcast come out? Hold you listen to

482
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: the show Man, So you went on that hiatus and

483
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: it missed me up? Now would be nervous you listen

484
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: to the show. I'm like Ship Travis's probably think I'm

485
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: a dumbass, Like what's you talking about this you're doing?

486
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: Sometimes I want you to really get into it, you

487
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: know the big Yeah, I know, you know what I mean.

488
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a different approach, right Like I

489
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: would I want to see more granular stuff, you know

490
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: what I mean. But but I love what y'all doing.

491
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 1: But actually, I mean I asking different questions than I

492
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: was planning to do. You went over a lot of

493
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: different books that you've been reading or planning engaging with, um,

494
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: you know, with the So what would you say right

495
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: now is the most urgent thing you would like a

496
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: listener to go out and read? And why? Like what

497
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: is what why is that particular piece of political now,

498
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: because it's really really saily in the urgent, in the moment, right. Um,

499
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: I would probably say the first thing, the first thing

500
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: anybody has to do, I think is always consider what

501
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: is justice right? Like you know is generally uh, the

502
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: first question I started with what is justice right? And

503
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: you to answer that question, I think you have to

504
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: answer a bunch of other questions, right, But but so

505
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: what where I think someone needs to start out like

506
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: it'll be It'll be young men, young women, you know

507
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: what I mean? Sometimes my age who want to come

508
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: and collaborated, like can I come hang around, find something

509
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: to do? And I'm like, all right, we'll go uh

510
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: read this, read that, reread this right and and a

511
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: lot of times I try to start them with our

512
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Prisons Obsolete and by Angela Davis to to just um, yeah,

513
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: incredible book, uh really the source of my uh kind

514
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: of my anchoring and the abolitionist movement Abolition to Struggle

515
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: Go and gulag uh Is also is also an incredible work,

516
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,239
Speaker 1: but by Ruth Guilmore and um and and and so

517
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: I would say start there to begin to understand the

518
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: how different systems interflate with one another and to ask

519
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: yourself questions that we take for granted, right, Like, prisons

520
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: as we understand them may have been around that long.

521
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: Did you know that? Probably not? Okay, so you don't

522
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: take that for granted. We can Prison was wasn't innovation? Right?

523
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: Prison was the innovation. Prison was an innovation. That was

524
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: them stepping up and saying, oh, it's just things differently.

525
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: Let's be well to stop hanging people in the in

526
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: the courtyard. Yeah, leaving people on the stocks and ship

527
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,959
Speaker 1: up too much. We're gonna do we were capable. If

528
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: we were capable of making that transition, we can also

529
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: we are capable of transitioning away of a new innovation. Right.

530
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: And so I would say I would say start there.

531
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: I would say, UM Spheares of Justice by Michael Walzer,

532
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: I would say start there. I would say, if somebody

533
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: is really interested in um and and digging into some

534
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: digging into some heavy work, uh, those are those are

535
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: the places to start and kind of kind of think

536
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: through olds. But I would say that the best the

537
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: best education is feeding yourself through uh, through that information,

538
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: but also being out here in the streets, because what

539
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: you see is you see all this suffering in all

540
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: this pain. This week, hunted families came through hunting. More

541
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: than a hundred families came through the food cantry right

542
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: this week, uh two or three. One social worker at

543
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: the schools, one essentially homeless outreach social worker at at

544
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: at MANTAGE, and another just kind of random person all

545
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: reached out with families who are in desperate need a house.

546
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: And fortunately, because of the support that our congregation gives

547
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: to this particular ministry and then just generally, we were

548
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: able to help him. Right But like, um, we we

549
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,479
Speaker 1: didn't have to, you know what I mean, Like they

550
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: could have been out there, I could have never found out.

551
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: They could have never found out that people that reached

552
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: out could have never found out. So being out here

553
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: in the street and seeing this and and you know,

554
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: seeing and suffering, I think is incredibly informational with particularly

555
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: when you put it with the book, right when you

556
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: put it with this book at that book are kind

557
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: of a kind of thinking through those But I would

558
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: say I would say that's what I would saying, Well,

559
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: I appreciate you bringing us back to practice, not just

560
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: like oh, just reading about it, but actually being about it.

561
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: If you're not if you're not really really doing it,

562
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? It feels different. It's like

563
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: if you just if you only recording songs in your

564
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: in your room, and then like let's say they're popping

565
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: on the internet. People are listening to your songs, but

566
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: you've never performed them, right, You have a whole different

567
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: set of expectations for how you want to beat the sound,

568
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: how you want to mix the sound. Do you want

569
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 1: like you know, I don't know if you saw that

570
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: locks uh dip set that or whatever versus. I didn't

571
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: watch it. I watched a couple of flips, but um,

572
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: that's because Kevin shout out to uh, shout out, shout

573
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: out your son too, what's bugging me about? What's bugging

574
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: me about the thing? Because he loved the battles. So

575
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, I took a look at it and it's

576
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: crazy because the tip said was performing with the vocals

577
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: on the track, Like, dude, what are you doing? This

578
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: is ain't you know. Jada was saying, this ain't hip

579
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: hop and it ain't right. But but your expectations for

580
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: like even what your songs need to be as different

581
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: once you start performing, you know what I mean? How

582
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: many times. You know, I seen somebody in the first

583
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: show and they froze. They was tough guy on the

584
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: on the mic and not a froze, right because it's

585
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: a it's a whole different element. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

586
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: I love that analogy. Perfect way to end off our conversation, Travis.

587
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: I can people get in touch with you? Is there

588
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: a way people can stay in touch with the absolutely

589
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: email me. I teach it a lot of different places,

590
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: with a lot of different black organizations and in justice

591
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: money organizations in the region. I can't think of any

592
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: thing right now, uh, because a lot of dates are

593
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: up in the air. But they can email me at

594
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: the Williams Project at gmail dot com at Williams like

595
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: my last names of I L I M. S Project,

596
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: R O J E C T in the projects at

597
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. So the Williams Project at gmail dot

598
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: com say in touch with the kids Waiting on Reparations

599
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: was the production of I Heeart Radio. For more podcasts

600
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, check out the heart Radio app,

601
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your body. Yes,