1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:26,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. We all have bad days. Our laptops die, our 2 00:00:26,796 --> 00:00:30,636 Speaker 1: relationships fail, our bosses let us go. I'll freely admit 3 00:00:31,036 --> 00:00:33,636 Speaker 1: that I sometimes get weighed down by it all, that 4 00:00:33,716 --> 00:00:36,236 Speaker 1: all those bad events can make me feel like I'm 5 00:00:36,236 --> 00:00:39,076 Speaker 1: a long way from my goal of being happier. And 6 00:00:39,236 --> 00:00:42,356 Speaker 1: that's when I try to think of James Stockdale and 7 00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:46,636 Speaker 1: a particularly bad day in his military career. It was 8 00:00:46,676 --> 00:00:50,756 Speaker 1: September ninth, nineteen sixty five. James was flying his jet 9 00:00:50,796 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: low over North Vietnam. Stockdale was hit by Enemy five 10 00:00:56,476 --> 00:01:00,636 Speaker 1: and had to reject. As he parachuted down to earth, 11 00:01:00,996 --> 00:01:04,476 Speaker 1: he recognized that he was enjoying probably his final seconds 12 00:01:04,476 --> 00:01:07,916 Speaker 1: of freedom and that the next five years minimum would 13 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:11,316 Speaker 1: be hell. He was looking at beatings, torture, and a 14 00:01:11,396 --> 00:01:15,196 Speaker 1: long imprisonment. But as enemy soldiers on the ground took 15 00:01:15,236 --> 00:01:18,956 Speaker 1: shots at the pilot, ripping his parachute, Stockdale gave himself 16 00:01:18,996 --> 00:01:22,516 Speaker 1: a bit of a pep talk. He whispered, I'm entering 17 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:27,516 Speaker 1: the world of Epictetus. Epictetus was born into slavery two 18 00:01:27,556 --> 00:01:31,036 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. His Roman master permitted him to study 19 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:35,876 Speaker 1: an ancient philosophy called Stoicism. Eventually, Epictetus gained his freedom 20 00:01:35,996 --> 00:01:39,316 Speaker 1: and became one of the most important stoic philosophers in history. 21 00:01:40,036 --> 00:01:41,996 Speaker 1: His ideas about how to live a happier life have 22 00:01:42,076 --> 00:01:45,956 Speaker 1: continued helping people long after his death. In fact, his 23 00:01:46,036 --> 00:01:48,116 Speaker 1: lessons on how to deal with challenges and how to 24 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:52,156 Speaker 1: put setbacks into perspective helped James Stockdale survive more than 25 00:01:52,236 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: seven years as a prisoner of war. They've also helped 26 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:58,516 Speaker 1: me through some difficult times and more than two thousand 27 00:01:58,596 --> 00:02:02,036 Speaker 1: years later. I bet they'll help you too, So welcome 28 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:09,036 Speaker 1: to Happiness Lessons of the Ancients with me, Doctor Larry Santos. Okay, 29 00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:13,276 Speaker 1: this is Bill Irvine, testing professor of philosophy at Right 30 00:02:13,356 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 1: State University. Yes, I'm recording his latest book, The Stoic Challenge, 31 00:02:17,556 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 1: is probably my book of the year. It's just curious. 32 00:02:20,516 --> 00:02:22,436 Speaker 1: But it was a great time to launch a book 33 00:02:22,436 --> 00:02:25,956 Speaker 1: on dealing with setbacks because we had COVID come along, 34 00:02:26,076 --> 00:02:28,356 Speaker 1: which was for a lot of people a major setback. 35 00:02:29,036 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 1: I talked to Bill for one of our bonus episodes 36 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 1: on the coronavirus, but we were only able to scratch 37 00:02:33,556 --> 00:02:36,876 Speaker 1: the surface of what stoicism can really teach us today. 38 00:02:36,956 --> 00:02:39,716 Speaker 1: So I invited Bill back to school us on Stoicism 39 00:02:39,716 --> 00:02:43,036 Speaker 1: in general and on my favorite Stoic of all, Epictetus. 40 00:02:43,436 --> 00:02:47,756 Speaker 1: So Stoicism was cobbled together from other philosophies that existed 41 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:51,676 Speaker 1: in three hundred BC by Zeno of Sidium. This was 42 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:56,356 Speaker 1: in Athens, it got to Rome in the first century BC. 43 00:02:57,316 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: There are the four greatest Roman Stoics, and those would 44 00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:08,916 Speaker 1: be Seneca, Musonius, Rufus, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius. Seneca, besides 45 00:03:09,156 --> 00:03:12,956 Speaker 1: being a Stoic philosopher, he was also an investment banker, 46 00:03:13,516 --> 00:03:17,556 Speaker 1: a playwright, counselor to an emperor. People get this idea 47 00:03:17,636 --> 00:03:22,036 Speaker 1: that Stoics were just interested in preserving comme at all costs, 48 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 1: but when you look at actual Stoic history, you realize 49 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:28,196 Speaker 1: that a lot of them were very busy individuals where 50 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:31,076 Speaker 1: there was that external success going on, but that wasn't 51 00:03:31,116 --> 00:03:35,356 Speaker 1: the key thing to them. After Seneca was Musonius Rufus. 52 00:03:35,636 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 1: Musonius had his own school. That was what you did. 53 00:03:38,596 --> 00:03:40,636 Speaker 1: There were no colleges, so you couldn't get a job 54 00:03:40,676 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 1: teaching in a college. So what you did is you 55 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:47,036 Speaker 1: started a school. For you to have a successful school, 56 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:50,556 Speaker 1: you needed to have an intellectual product that would draw 57 00:03:50,716 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 1: students someplace where they would get the skills they would 58 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:57,076 Speaker 1: need in life, skills like how to be a success 59 00:03:57,116 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: in politics, how to be a success in law, but 60 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:03,476 Speaker 1: how to have a good life was also a component. 61 00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 1: One of the students was Epictetus. We don't know a 62 00:04:08,956 --> 00:04:14,356 Speaker 1: lot about Epictetus. He was born in about fifty CE 63 00:04:14,516 --> 00:04:19,116 Speaker 1: and started out life as a slave. You know, he 64 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: wasn't out laboring in the fields, but he was acquiring 65 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:26,156 Speaker 1: basic skills of writing. Remember, they didn't have xerox machines, 66 00:04:26,196 --> 00:04:29,756 Speaker 1: they didn't have typewriters. And apparently at one point he 67 00:04:29,836 --> 00:04:33,556 Speaker 1: got a beating severe enough to make him a lame slave. 68 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: So he was spent his life lame. Finally succeeded in 69 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 1: getting his freedom and used it to start his own 70 00:04:42,796 --> 00:04:47,116 Speaker 1: philosophy school. What made him special he came up with 71 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:51,116 Speaker 1: a lot of catchy sayings that became what was known 72 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: as the Handbook or in Caridian. And it's this short 73 00:04:54,516 --> 00:04:57,396 Speaker 1: little thing. You can read it in an hour, and 74 00:04:57,436 --> 00:05:01,076 Speaker 1: then you can spend the next decade pondering its contents. 75 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:06,836 Speaker 1: Still as some continued to rumble along until the twentieth century, 76 00:05:06,876 --> 00:05:09,556 Speaker 1: when as far as I can tell it went into 77 00:05:09,596 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 1: a decline. I mean, so I was a college student 78 00:05:12,796 --> 00:05:17,476 Speaker 1: starting in nineteen seventy philosophy major and was not exposed 79 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:21,636 Speaker 1: to Stoicism because we weren't exposed to philosophies of life, 80 00:05:21,676 --> 00:05:25,636 Speaker 1: because that didn't really matter. And the beautiful thing is, 81 00:05:25,756 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: right now we're in the midst of a Stoic renaissance. 82 00:05:28,916 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of the backstory on Stoicism, and 83 00:05:32,436 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 1: that's the kind of the place that Epictetis has in 84 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 1: that story. One of the like maybe twentieth century adopters 85 00:05:38,676 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 1: of Stoicism is Admiral James Stockdale, And you know, when 86 00:05:42,956 --> 00:05:46,196 Speaker 1: his plane was shot down, he self reports saying that, 87 00:05:46,276 --> 00:05:47,516 Speaker 1: you know, he knew that he was going to be 88 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:49,676 Speaker 1: stuck there for five years at least, and he was 89 00:05:49,836 --> 00:05:52,236 Speaker 1: entering the world of Epictetus. So was the quote that 90 00:05:52,276 --> 00:05:55,036 Speaker 1: he had. Yeah, Now this was the Vietnam War. So 91 00:05:55,076 --> 00:05:59,356 Speaker 1: he became a prisoner, not at all a very pleasant existence, 92 00:05:59,396 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 1: you know, not enough to eat, cruelty, being beaten, and 93 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:07,396 Speaker 1: for him it would have been a complete turnaround, you know, 94 00:06:07,556 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 1: just one hundred and eighty return in the course of 95 00:06:10,396 --> 00:06:13,836 Speaker 1: his life, because he went from being an airplane pilot. 96 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:17,916 Speaker 1: Presumably I must have been a college graduate, went from 97 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:20,836 Speaker 1: this life of being a star in some sense, a 98 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: rock star, and now suddenly you're the low man on 99 00:06:24,476 --> 00:06:26,996 Speaker 1: the totem poll, and then you wake up and then 100 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:30,076 Speaker 1: the question is what will I find to eat today? 101 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 1: And will I live till tomorrow? So he was an 102 00:06:33,676 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 1: early adopter of stoicism. But you know, think how fortunate 103 00:06:37,236 --> 00:06:41,156 Speaker 1: he was to have been exposed to it before being 104 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:44,836 Speaker 1: shot down, because it gave him a way of dealing 105 00:06:45,076 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 1: with the things he was about to experience. And you know, 106 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:51,796 Speaker 1: this is a line from Epictetus. It isn't what happens 107 00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:54,716 Speaker 1: to us that has the effect. It's how we frame 108 00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:58,716 Speaker 1: what happens to us. It's how we interpret what happens 109 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:00,556 Speaker 1: to us. And so we may not have a lot 110 00:07:00,596 --> 00:07:04,276 Speaker 1: of power over what happens to us, but we have 111 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: considerable power over what we do with what happens to it, 112 00:07:08,276 --> 00:07:10,996 Speaker 1: with the psychological frame we put it in. And that 113 00:07:11,116 --> 00:07:13,676 Speaker 1: was one of the fantastic things about Epictetis is that 114 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:15,836 Speaker 1: he was kind of incredibly practical. I mean, I think 115 00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:18,636 Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons that Stockdale brought up Epictetis 116 00:07:18,676 --> 00:07:20,876 Speaker 1: in particular and not just Stoics in general, which it 117 00:07:20,916 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 1: seems like he'd read, which is the Epictetis was really 118 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: trying to give us almost like early self help it 119 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: but it's you know, I think the handbook almost sounds 120 00:07:29,436 --> 00:07:31,956 Speaker 1: like a self help book in some ways. But one 121 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:33,796 Speaker 1: of the things I noticed in the discourses is he 122 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:37,396 Speaker 1: talks about this idea that turning to stoicism is sort 123 00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 1: of like going to the hospital, and like what a 124 00:07:39,276 --> 00:07:41,516 Speaker 1: stoics job, a stoic philosopher's job is is to kind 125 00:07:41,516 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: of be like a doctor in a hospital. And he 126 00:07:43,556 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: notes that like students ought not to walk out in 127 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:48,036 Speaker 1: pleasure but in pain, right, And I think this is 128 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 1: sort of kind of coming to terms with the Stoic 129 00:07:50,996 --> 00:07:53,356 Speaker 1: philosophy and what it means. It's like, you kin'd have 130 00:07:53,396 --> 00:07:55,636 Speaker 1: to accept that there are certain things that you can't control. 131 00:07:55,716 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 1: And so the Stoic view is that you can achieve 132 00:07:58,556 --> 00:08:00,796 Speaker 1: harmony in life, you can achieve happiness, but it kind 133 00:08:00,796 --> 00:08:03,156 Speaker 1: of takes a little bit of work. Yeah, So a 134 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 1: Stoicism had several different aspects. So if you're a Stoic philosopher, 135 00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:10,636 Speaker 1: you're interested in science, you might be interested in logic, 136 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:12,636 Speaker 1: because you know your students are going to have to 137 00:08:12,716 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 1: learn how to reason if they want to be lawyers, 138 00:08:15,116 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 1: if they want to be a politicians. But beside that, 139 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:22,116 Speaker 1: you're interested in a philosophy of life, and most people 140 00:08:22,196 --> 00:08:24,076 Speaker 1: lack that. They just go from day to day, or 141 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:26,436 Speaker 1: they look around at the goals other people are forming 142 00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 1: and assume that the other people have done their homework. 143 00:08:29,076 --> 00:08:32,156 Speaker 1: Usually they have and they've just been copying their neighbors. 144 00:08:32,956 --> 00:08:36,396 Speaker 1: The Stoics, though, were very careful to add that on 145 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:40,756 Speaker 1: as a component in their philosophy, and they didn't just 146 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:45,956 Speaker 1: talk about grand theories and principles and everything else. The 147 00:08:46,036 --> 00:08:50,716 Speaker 1: question was is their practical advice that they had to offer. 148 00:08:51,116 --> 00:08:54,996 Speaker 1: It should have takeaways. There should be lectures that people 149 00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: can come to and then go away from thinking hard, 150 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 1: not about oh, some wonderful principle, but about woe. The 151 00:09:02,836 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 1: way I'm living my life. I seem to be making 152 00:09:05,676 --> 00:09:08,076 Speaker 1: some basic mistakes because I kind of want to dig 153 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:11,876 Speaker 1: into some of the Epictetus insights. Specifically, one of the 154 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:15,356 Speaker 1: ideas that comes out is this Greek term. I'm going 155 00:09:15,396 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 1: to mess up the Greek term, but it's this term epihenum, 156 00:09:18,996 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: something that in our power. It's great. It's great to me, 157 00:09:22,036 --> 00:09:25,156 Speaker 1: great to you too. But this is this idea of 158 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: things that are sort of up to us, right, And 159 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:31,316 Speaker 1: that classically is how Epictetus started his book, Give me 160 00:09:31,316 --> 00:09:33,276 Speaker 1: a sense of how the Handbook starts. And this huge 161 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:36,436 Speaker 1: insight that Epictetius brought to people in English, what I 162 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:38,516 Speaker 1: call it, and a lot of people do this too, 163 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:41,356 Speaker 1: They call it the dichotomy of control. So a dichotomy 164 00:09:41,436 --> 00:09:43,676 Speaker 1: is an either or, it's one or the other, and 165 00:09:43,876 --> 00:09:47,556 Speaker 1: the dichotomy of control is, well, there are some things 166 00:09:47,596 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: you can control and there are some things you can't control. 167 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 1: And if you spend your day thinking about, anxious about, 168 00:09:56,676 --> 00:10:00,116 Speaker 1: dwelling upon the things you can't control, you are the 169 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:03,996 Speaker 1: biggest fool on the planet. How come because you can't 170 00:10:03,996 --> 00:10:07,556 Speaker 1: control it, You're wasting your time, You're wasting your energy, 171 00:10:07,636 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 1: You're causing yourself. You know, when you get up in 172 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:14,436 Speaker 1: the morning, you should realize that today a number of 173 00:10:14,556 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 1: things are going to happen that simply go against me. 174 00:10:17,476 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 1: And if I expect to get up and go through 175 00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:23,436 Speaker 1: today without anything bad happening, I'm a fool and I 176 00:10:23,556 --> 00:10:26,196 Speaker 1: have a choice. I can't control that, but I do 177 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 1: have control over something else, and it is my response 178 00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:33,076 Speaker 1: to those things that happen. You can control your goals. 179 00:10:33,396 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 1: Can you control whether you achieve those goals? No? No, 180 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:39,636 Speaker 1: But you can control what the goals are. You can 181 00:10:39,676 --> 00:10:42,836 Speaker 1: control your values. What do you value in life? Do 182 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:46,916 Speaker 1: you value fame and fortune? Do you value tranquility? That's 183 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:51,476 Speaker 1: completely in your control. And the Stoic insight was, if 184 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:54,036 Speaker 1: you want to have a good life, number one, you 185 00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:57,516 Speaker 1: need to focus your attention on things you can control. 186 00:10:58,316 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 1: Number two is when it comes to choosing your values. 187 00:11:01,036 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: When it comes to choosing your goals, you want to 188 00:11:04,076 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: choose values that are going to lead me in the 189 00:11:06,036 --> 00:11:08,036 Speaker 1: right direction, and its goals that I'm going to be 190 00:11:08,076 --> 00:11:10,916 Speaker 1: able to achieve. I know so many people, and I 191 00:11:10,996 --> 00:11:12,516 Speaker 1: used to be one of them, and I still am, 192 00:11:12,596 --> 00:11:14,876 Speaker 1: to some extent one of them. But I know this 193 00:11:14,996 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 1: one person I've known for a long time, and he 194 00:11:17,876 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: routinely says to me, if only I made X thousand 195 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:26,916 Speaker 1: dollars per year, then finally I would be happy. And 196 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:29,476 Speaker 1: then I'll encounter him a few years later and I'll say, 197 00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:32,716 Speaker 1: how's that X thing going for you? He says, if 198 00:11:32,876 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: only I had Why? So, this is this hedonic treadmill 199 00:11:37,316 --> 00:11:40,796 Speaker 1: that we're on. Don't get yourself on the hedonic treadmill 200 00:11:40,836 --> 00:11:45,956 Speaker 1: because you will never be satisfied. You will always want more. 201 00:11:46,636 --> 00:11:50,356 Speaker 1: But back to the dichotomy of control. So there's things 202 00:11:50,356 --> 00:11:53,756 Speaker 1: you can control things you can't control. But I have 203 00:11:53,916 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 1: fiddled with it, and so I've come up with what 204 00:11:58,156 --> 00:12:02,076 Speaker 1: I call the trichotomy of control. When you say there 205 00:12:02,076 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: are things you can control and things you can't control, 206 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:09,756 Speaker 1: the phrase the things you can't control is actually ambiguous 207 00:12:09,796 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: because there's two different sorts of things you can't control. 208 00:12:13,036 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 1: One of them is things that you have absolutely no 209 00:12:15,956 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 1: control over, and that would be like whether the sunrise 210 00:12:19,716 --> 00:12:23,276 Speaker 1: is tomorrow. I have absolutely no control over that. But 211 00:12:23,316 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 1: there are also things you can't control in the sense 212 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:28,996 Speaker 1: that you don't have complete control over them, but you 213 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:32,596 Speaker 1: have partial control over them. What would that be, Well, 214 00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:36,516 Speaker 1: my weight, for instance, Can I suddenly wish that I 215 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:40,156 Speaker 1: became one hundred and sixty pounds? Nope? Can I try 216 00:12:40,196 --> 00:12:43,196 Speaker 1: to do that? Yep? Do I have some control over that? Yeah? 217 00:12:43,276 --> 00:12:45,236 Speaker 1: Because every day I sit down and eat, and I 218 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:47,476 Speaker 1: have control over what I do eat and what I 219 00:12:47,516 --> 00:12:51,436 Speaker 1: don't eat. It's this third intermediate category. It's things I 220 00:12:51,476 --> 00:12:55,716 Speaker 1: have some but not complete control over, So I would 221 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 1: argue that that's where as a practicing Stoic you should 222 00:12:58,836 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 1: be spending most of your time. And I think one 223 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:03,636 Speaker 1: way that focusing on what you can control is really 224 00:13:03,636 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 1: powerful is it means that if you get that right, 225 00:13:06,996 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: you're never really a victim, right Like, you can't be 226 00:13:09,756 --> 00:13:12,276 Speaker 1: a victim of your circumstances if you're really tracking the 227 00:13:12,356 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: things that just don't matter to you right right. The 228 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 1: notion of being a victim, by the way, that touches 229 00:13:17,636 --> 00:13:21,036 Speaker 1: on a second stoic theme, and that is framing. Sometimes 230 00:13:21,076 --> 00:13:24,196 Speaker 1: you do have a say whether bad things happen to you. 231 00:13:24,316 --> 00:13:26,556 Speaker 1: If you never check the gas gage in your car, 232 00:13:26,716 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 1: bad things are going to happen, and you're to blame 233 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:31,596 Speaker 1: and shame on you. But there are other things where 234 00:13:31,676 --> 00:13:34,396 Speaker 1: a bad thing happens that you couldn't have foreseen, but 235 00:13:34,516 --> 00:13:37,876 Speaker 1: you do have control over the frame you put around it. 236 00:13:38,356 --> 00:13:41,716 Speaker 1: You've got a very interesting choice of whether you're going 237 00:13:41,796 --> 00:13:45,436 Speaker 1: to play the role of victim or play the role 238 00:13:45,556 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 1: of target. And it's a huge psychological difference because if 239 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 1: you choose to play the role of victim, then you're 240 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:55,556 Speaker 1: going to feel sorry for yourself. You're going to be 241 00:13:55,636 --> 00:13:59,756 Speaker 1: asking for people's sympathy, You're going to be probably depressed. 242 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:02,796 Speaker 1: If you play the role of target, then you can 243 00:14:02,916 --> 00:14:05,716 Speaker 1: rise to that challenge. As a result of doing that, 244 00:14:05,796 --> 00:14:09,756 Speaker 1: you can gain character and you can change the world. 245 00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:13,676 Speaker 1: That difference between feeling like a victim versus feeling like 246 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:17,276 Speaker 1: a target was an important distinction for James Stockdale. When 247 00:14:17,276 --> 00:14:20,196 Speaker 1: Stockdale came crashing down to Earth, he badly injured his 248 00:14:20,316 --> 00:14:23,156 Speaker 1: leg and was left lame, just like his hero Epictetus. 249 00:14:23,956 --> 00:14:27,156 Speaker 1: But throughout all the pain and cruelty, Stockdale decided that 250 00:14:27,196 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 1: he was game for the challenge and he was ready 251 00:14:29,636 --> 00:14:32,476 Speaker 1: to take it on. After the break, we'll look at 252 00:14:32,476 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: the path that Epictetus has laid out to help us 253 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:38,956 Speaker 1: all gain control even in the worst of times, the happiness, laugh, 254 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:54,196 Speaker 1: or turn in a moment when trying to take control 255 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:57,716 Speaker 1: of our own lives, Epictetus suggested adopting a state of 256 00:14:57,756 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 1: mind that he called apathea. We need to become less 257 00:15:01,116 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 1: bothered by the powerful emotions that often cloud our judgment. 258 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:08,116 Speaker 1: Apathea sounds a lot like our modern word apathy, but 259 00:15:08,196 --> 00:15:11,556 Speaker 1: that's actually a miss perception of stoicism that it's about 260 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 1: turning off our emotions and not caring what's going on 261 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 1: around us. So I asked Bill to explain how apathea 262 00:15:18,076 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 1: really works. The Stoics weren't anti emotion, they were anti 263 00:15:22,676 --> 00:15:28,076 Speaker 1: negative emotion. They embraced positive emotions, they embraced feelings of delight, 264 00:15:28,356 --> 00:15:32,916 Speaker 1: they embraced joy. Those are all positive emotions. But they thought, 265 00:15:32,956 --> 00:15:36,956 Speaker 1: what makes us miserable is the negative emotions we experienced, 266 00:15:37,036 --> 00:15:44,036 Speaker 1: like anger, like regret, like feelings of insecurity. They realized 267 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 1: that we are essentially at war with ourselves. And I 268 00:15:48,396 --> 00:15:52,076 Speaker 1: use the roommate analogy. So suppose the only place you 269 00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:55,636 Speaker 1: could live was an apartment and you realize that moving in, 270 00:15:55,676 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: you had two apartment mates. One was this utterly reflexive 271 00:16:00,636 --> 00:16:04,636 Speaker 1: guy who was either panicking or reacting in dramatic ways 272 00:16:04,636 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 1: to whatever the circumstances were. The other one was just 273 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:11,076 Speaker 1: an emotional basket case. You know, whatever happened, you'd be saying, 274 00:16:11,076 --> 00:16:13,236 Speaker 1: this is the worst thing ever, or this is the 275 00:16:13,236 --> 00:16:16,916 Speaker 1: best thing ever. And then there was rational you, okay, 276 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:21,436 Speaker 1: And the problem is you couldn't escape them, you couldn't 277 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: leave them. You had to deal with them. How do 278 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 1: you accomplish that and here's where stoic insight comes. You 279 00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: manipulate them, you use your brain power. I mean, you 280 00:16:33,436 --> 00:16:36,636 Speaker 1: can simply try, as an act of self control to 281 00:16:36,756 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 1: ignore what they're doing, ignore what they're saying. Good luck 282 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:44,556 Speaker 1: with that, because self control requires considerable energy on your part. 283 00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:48,716 Speaker 1: If you've ever tried to do meditation, you realize one 284 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 1: of the very first things you learn is how difficult 285 00:16:51,756 --> 00:16:54,756 Speaker 1: it is to just quiet your mind. Sit there for 286 00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:57,796 Speaker 1: five minutes in a common environment and don't have thoughts, 287 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:03,676 Speaker 1: and within thirty seconds outside, maybe before that, you'll realize, Oops, 288 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:06,396 Speaker 1: a thought just came into my mind, and a lot 289 00:17:06,396 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: of them are crazy ideas. Because of that, we find 290 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:13,956 Speaker 1: ourselves living not in the present moment, and you know 291 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 1: that's kind of been the ideal is live in them now. 292 00:17:17,716 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: It's rather things like so and so said something to 293 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:23,996 Speaker 1: me yesterday. Is he upset with me? Is he angry 294 00:17:24,036 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 1: at me? Is he going to do something to make 295 00:17:25,596 --> 00:17:29,556 Speaker 1: me even more upset? And oh, the electrical bill has 296 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 1: to be paid and it's due this evening. Suppose you 297 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:35,516 Speaker 1: had a neighbor who every five minutes was showing up 298 00:17:35,516 --> 00:17:38,596 Speaker 1: at your door, banging on the door and saying you 299 00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:41,676 Speaker 1: should be angry. Now there's something you should worry about. Now, 300 00:17:41,756 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 1: you know, you would get a restraining order, except it 301 00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:47,756 Speaker 1: isn't a neighbor and you can't go to a court 302 00:17:47,796 --> 00:17:51,996 Speaker 1: of law. It's inside your head. So the Stoics, the 303 00:17:52,036 --> 00:17:56,476 Speaker 1: beautiful thing was they figured out a way not only 304 00:17:56,556 --> 00:17:59,956 Speaker 1: to kind of shut down those thoughts in those emotions, 305 00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: but to harness them and use them on their behalf. 306 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:06,236 Speaker 1: And so in their goal to control negative emotions, is 307 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:08,316 Speaker 1: this notion that we talk a lot about today in 308 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:11,396 Speaker 1: modern effect science, which is this idea of emotion regulation, 309 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:14,676 Speaker 1: this idea that emotions really are in our control and 310 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:17,356 Speaker 1: that we can take ownership to kind of downregulate the 311 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 1: negative ones. And one of the ways that modern science 312 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:22,516 Speaker 1: has figured out that we can downregulate negative emotions has 313 00:18:22,556 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: to do with our judgments, right, is to realize that 314 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:28,116 Speaker 1: we're in control of how we experience an emotion. And 315 00:18:28,156 --> 00:18:30,396 Speaker 1: this seems to fit a lot with what Epictetus talked 316 00:18:30,396 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 1: about when he talked about these impressions. And so what 317 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 1: was Epictetus talking about about? When you see something, realize 318 00:18:36,556 --> 00:18:39,476 Speaker 1: that it's an impression that you can control. Yeah, when 319 00:18:39,476 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 1: somebody insults us, there are two ways we can respond. 320 00:18:43,236 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 1: One is to get angry and upset and maybe a 321 00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:49,796 Speaker 1: seek revenge, and another is to simply shrug it off. 322 00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: It's just noise. If you're out on a walk and 323 00:18:52,316 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: a dog barks at you, you know if you respond 324 00:18:54,596 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 1: to that by saying, oh, that dog, let's not approve 325 00:18:58,116 --> 00:19:03,076 Speaker 1: of me. That dog is so mean. Nah, it's just barking. Well, 326 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:07,676 Speaker 1: you can treat the things other people say in exactly 327 00:19:07,716 --> 00:19:09,956 Speaker 1: the same frame of mind, because some of them are 328 00:19:09,996 --> 00:19:13,916 Speaker 1: not fully rational, coherent people. That's why they're going around 329 00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:17,316 Speaker 1: saying insulting things. When you're insulted, you should just shrug 330 00:19:17,316 --> 00:19:19,196 Speaker 1: it off, or better still, make a joke out of it. 331 00:19:19,316 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 1: And you haven't your power to do that. And if 332 00:19:21,596 --> 00:19:23,676 Speaker 1: you make a joke out of it, you not only 333 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 1: will prevent the insult from hurting you, but it's just 334 00:19:28,196 --> 00:19:30,596 Speaker 1: almost the worst thing you can do to the person 335 00:19:30,636 --> 00:19:33,556 Speaker 1: who insulted you. He wants to hurt you, and if 336 00:19:33,556 --> 00:19:36,596 Speaker 1: you laugh it off, it's proof that he hasn't hurt you. 337 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 1: So one thing I do in class when we're up 338 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: to this point is I tell the assembled group, and 339 00:19:42,436 --> 00:19:44,756 Speaker 1: it might be thirty people, might be fifty people. I 340 00:19:44,796 --> 00:19:46,596 Speaker 1: say Okay, I want you to come up with the 341 00:19:46,636 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: worst insult of me that you can think of, and 342 00:19:51,436 --> 00:19:53,516 Speaker 1: then I'm going to do a countdown, and when we 343 00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:55,916 Speaker 1: get to three, I want you all to shout out 344 00:19:55,916 --> 00:20:00,516 Speaker 1: your insult at the same moment. So I do one, two, three, 345 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:06,156 Speaker 1: and then the room erupts in this giant insult, and 346 00:20:06,196 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 1: then I just smile and I say, it's just noise. Now. 347 00:20:09,756 --> 00:20:12,396 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm too clever by half, because one of the 348 00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:15,636 Speaker 1: times when I tried this, there's one student who waited 349 00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 1: until the noise had subsided and then said in a 350 00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:24,556 Speaker 1: low voice, old man. And it's interesting because here I 351 00:20:24,596 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 1: am a practicing stoic, and yeah, yeah, that does mean 352 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:30,556 Speaker 1: you're perfect. It means you've you've developed your skills. And 353 00:20:30,636 --> 00:20:34,436 Speaker 1: yet you know, you start thinking, oh that hurt. Also 354 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 1: that and this really fits nicely with what we're learning 355 00:20:36,796 --> 00:20:39,956 Speaker 1: about these different emotion regulation strategies. I think at first, 356 00:20:39,996 --> 00:20:43,036 Speaker 1: when people think about emotion regulation, they think about what 357 00:20:43,116 --> 00:20:45,476 Speaker 1: you might call like suppression, right, like I just don't 358 00:20:45,516 --> 00:20:48,156 Speaker 1: want to feel this emotion. But what we're learning now 359 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:50,596 Speaker 1: from the neuroscience is the suppression is really bad. It 360 00:20:50,676 --> 00:20:52,556 Speaker 1: might shut off emotion in the moment. But if you 361 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:55,996 Speaker 1: look physiologically, you hook somebody up to a skin response, 362 00:20:56,036 --> 00:20:58,876 Speaker 1: you find that that emotion's coming out anyway. Turns out 363 00:20:58,876 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 1: a better strategy is exactly what a fictidius was talking about, 364 00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:05,196 Speaker 1: which is what neuroscientists are now calling reappraisal. Right, you know, 365 00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:09,236 Speaker 1: you reappraise that frustrating thing. As a test in one study, 366 00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:12,516 Speaker 1: you get folks to reappraise something bad happening to you 367 00:21:12,916 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 1: as like, you know, you think about it how a 368 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:16,556 Speaker 1: doctor might think about it, or I think about it, 369 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 1: how you might think about it. If you're designing a game, 370 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:20,676 Speaker 1: this is just a game in life. And the research 371 00:21:20,676 --> 00:21:23,516 Speaker 1: really shows that people who are high on that ability 372 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:27,756 Speaker 1: to reappraise naturally, because there's individual difference in this, people 373 00:21:27,756 --> 00:21:30,636 Speaker 1: who are high on that ability to reappraise naturally, they 374 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:33,236 Speaker 1: tend to experience less depression and they self report that 375 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 1: their lives are less stressful. The cool thing is if 376 00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:38,276 Speaker 1: you teach people how to reappraise in the laboratory. This 377 00:21:38,356 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 1: is some work by James Gross where he shows people 378 00:21:40,876 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: these really nasty videos like an amputation or Hiroshima victims, 379 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:48,076 Speaker 1: and he says, you know, try to watch this documentary 380 00:21:48,116 --> 00:21:50,196 Speaker 1: in a way, in a very metaway right, like you're 381 00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:52,716 Speaker 1: a doctor watching this or you're a historian kind of 382 00:21:52,716 --> 00:21:54,876 Speaker 1: looking at it from afar, And what he finds is 383 00:21:54,916 --> 00:21:58,516 Speaker 1: that people naturally experience less emotion there, but again not 384 00:21:58,556 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 1: in a like suppression way where you're trying to run 385 00:22:00,556 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 1: from the emotions. You just take that new frame and 386 00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:06,876 Speaker 1: then everything looks differently. Yeah, the frame makes all the difference. 387 00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: One of the things you can do is simply get frustrated. 388 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 1: I was set back. There's something I wanted to do. 389 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:13,836 Speaker 1: I was prevented from doing it, so I'm upset as 390 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,996 Speaker 1: a result. Or a different way, you can frame it 391 00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:21,596 Speaker 1: as a test by imaginary stoic gods, in which case 392 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: then instead of focusing on the setback, you think about 393 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:27,556 Speaker 1: how you're going to overcome that setback, and you're going 394 00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:32,196 Speaker 1: to show those stoic gods who's in charge. Ha, you 395 00:22:32,236 --> 00:22:36,396 Speaker 1: cannot defeat me. So it's an interesting way. So we 396 00:22:36,436 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 1: aren't just trying to prevent the emotions. We're harnessing them, 397 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:45,276 Speaker 1: making them work on our behalf. Pay particular attention to anger. 398 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 1: It's an insidious emotion. An event that happened to you 399 00:22:49,196 --> 00:22:53,396 Speaker 1: years before, can poke itself into your head at three 400 00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:57,036 Speaker 1: in the morning, and then you find that the person 401 00:22:57,196 --> 00:22:59,916 Speaker 1: is long gone, not part of your life, and yet 402 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:03,836 Speaker 1: you find the anger returning. So one bit of advice 403 00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:07,996 Speaker 1: that I offer based on stoics is doing your best 404 00:23:07,996 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 1: to nip them in the bug. And so I describe 405 00:23:10,396 --> 00:23:12,956 Speaker 1: the three second rule, or maybe it's a five second rule, 406 00:23:12,996 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 1: you know how I when food falls on the floor, 407 00:23:15,316 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 1: and this is an urban myth that turns out but 408 00:23:17,356 --> 00:23:19,516 Speaker 1: if you pick it up within three or five seconds 409 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 1: that it's going to be fine. But anger works that 410 00:23:22,156 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 1: way too. So something happens and then you've got this 411 00:23:26,436 --> 00:23:30,156 Speaker 1: beautiful interval a matter of seconds, but a beautiful interval 412 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:34,436 Speaker 1: where you get to very quickly frame it. And then 413 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:36,276 Speaker 1: how you do that. But you've got to be quick 414 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: because once the anger arises, it's going to have a 415 00:23:40,636 --> 00:23:42,636 Speaker 1: life of its own. But then what you do is 416 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: you say, oh, it's a setback. Ah, you stow it. Gods, 417 00:23:46,516 --> 00:23:49,956 Speaker 1: you're shaking your fist at them. They're using this person 418 00:23:50,156 --> 00:23:54,676 Speaker 1: as part of their mechanism to test me, and I 419 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:58,356 Speaker 1: should throw this in the stoic gods are actually good 420 00:23:58,396 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 1: guys and gals, because why are they doing this? To you. 421 00:24:01,956 --> 00:24:04,596 Speaker 1: They're doing it to you to strengthen you. Like a 422 00:24:04,636 --> 00:24:07,316 Speaker 1: good coach, you take it as a compliment that they 423 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 1: think you're worth the attention, so that it's one of 424 00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:14,116 Speaker 1: these cases where you regard the person just as this fool, 425 00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:16,876 Speaker 1: this cog in this machine that's being used as part 426 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:19,556 Speaker 1: of the test of you. That gets to the final 427 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:21,716 Speaker 1: thing I wanted to mention about Epictetus, which is that 428 00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 1: he realized that this was going to be work. You know, 429 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 1: he realized that this was going to be a path, 430 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:28,796 Speaker 1: and in that sense he was embodying this wonderful psychological 431 00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,276 Speaker 1: principle of a growth mindset. You know, you're not going 432 00:24:31,316 --> 00:24:33,836 Speaker 1: to be a perfect Stoic right now, but you're working 433 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:36,196 Speaker 1: towards it in this right way. And so talk about 434 00:24:36,196 --> 00:24:38,676 Speaker 1: how Epictetis and the other Stoics kind of embodied this 435 00:24:38,716 --> 00:24:41,036 Speaker 1: idea like, you know, we're not there yet, but we're 436 00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:44,236 Speaker 1: kind of working towards this goal over time. Yes, So 437 00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:47,876 Speaker 1: when life sets you back and I describe these stoic tests, 438 00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 1: how do you pass the Stoic test? First of all, 439 00:24:50,116 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: the stoics do not stoke. Gods, do not grade you. 440 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,516 Speaker 1: You don't get an email saying that was a B plus. 441 00:24:55,556 --> 00:24:57,196 Speaker 1: But here's what you need to work on. So it's 442 00:24:57,236 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 1: all self graded. But you graded according to two standards. First, 443 00:25:01,636 --> 00:25:04,836 Speaker 1: did you find a workaround? Doesn't have to be a 444 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:08,676 Speaker 1: perfect work around, but did you find the best work 445 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:12,436 Speaker 1: around reasonably could? Did you use your cortex to try 446 00:25:12,436 --> 00:25:15,036 Speaker 1: to think through the possibilities and come up with the workaround. 447 00:25:15,476 --> 00:25:19,196 Speaker 1: Second and more important component of the grade, did you 448 00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 1: keep your cool while you did it. That's the most 449 00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: important part of the grade because when you think about 450 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:28,276 Speaker 1: most of life setbacks, it isn't the setback itself that 451 00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:31,996 Speaker 1: causes you the harm. It's your response to the setback. 452 00:25:32,036 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 1: It's allowing yourself to get angry, to get up set 453 00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:39,316 Speaker 1: that's what causes the damage. So for the stoics, it 454 00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:42,996 Speaker 1: could look to the entire world that the stoic just 455 00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:47,396 Speaker 1: failed big time in doing something. So, for instance, there 456 00:25:47,436 --> 00:25:51,076 Speaker 1: was a tennis match and that the stoic lost. Ah, 457 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:55,076 Speaker 1: he lost, and that's failure. But if you ask the stoic, 458 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,556 Speaker 1: the stoic could say, ah, I can see how someone 459 00:25:57,596 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 1: on the outside would look at it that way, But 460 00:26:01,156 --> 00:26:05,356 Speaker 1: my goal was not to win this game. My goal 461 00:26:05,556 --> 00:26:08,756 Speaker 1: was to train for this game to the best of 462 00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:12,316 Speaker 1: my ability, come up with the best strategy for playing 463 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:15,876 Speaker 1: this game. As I could play the game to the 464 00:26:15,916 --> 00:26:19,276 Speaker 1: best of my ability, and I did those things. I 465 00:26:19,316 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: did not win the game, but it was not a failure. 466 00:26:21,956 --> 00:26:24,396 Speaker 1: Here's the interesting wrinkle on that, and that is if 467 00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 1: you approach life thinking in those terms, you're more likely 468 00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 1: to have external successes because if you did the best 469 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:36,116 Speaker 1: you could, that's all you can ever do. If you 470 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 1: did the best you could and routinely do that, you're 471 00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:43,156 Speaker 1: going to get better and better, and so you'll actually 472 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:46,756 Speaker 1: have not only the internal successes, which is what the 473 00:26:46,996 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: Stoics were primarily interested in, but the external successes as well. Yeah, 474 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:54,476 Speaker 1: even though it's an old strategy, it's one that still works. 475 00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I know again, we started this episode with Stockdale, 476 00:26:57,556 --> 00:26:59,956 Speaker 1: and you know, he had to go through some pretty 477 00:27:00,036 --> 00:27:03,236 Speaker 1: hardcore Stoic god challenges but made it through in part 478 00:27:03,276 --> 00:27:05,756 Speaker 1: because he had this tool. Yep. And you know what, 479 00:27:06,156 --> 00:27:08,276 Speaker 1: So there's a lot that's changed in the last two 480 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:13,396 Speaker 1: thousand years, but human psychology has changed barely an iota. 481 00:27:13,596 --> 00:27:16,036 Speaker 1: So what would be surprising if something that worked two 482 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 1: thousand years ago in psychological terms didn't continue to work today. 483 00:27:21,796 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 1: I love talking to Bill. He always has a helpful 484 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:28,036 Speaker 1: way of reminding me the stoic challenge never ends. We're 485 00:27:28,076 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 1: constantly being tested, constantly being offered chances to gain wisdom 486 00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:34,796 Speaker 1: and to react with good humor. In fact, you might 487 00:27:34,796 --> 00:27:37,116 Speaker 1: have noticed that my side of the interview sounded a 488 00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:40,356 Speaker 1: bit crappier than usual, and that was because my recorder 489 00:27:40,396 --> 00:27:42,716 Speaker 1: died right in the middle of the interview. But did 490 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:46,356 Speaker 1: I get angry or frustrated. No, because when you think 491 00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:50,036 Speaker 1: about it, this is a wonderful stoic challenge. Plus we 492 00:27:50,036 --> 00:27:53,156 Speaker 1: had a backup, so we were good. But just to 493 00:27:53,156 --> 00:27:57,076 Speaker 1: complete James Stockdale's story, he was eventually released from captivity 494 00:27:57,156 --> 00:28:00,916 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three. Throughout his entire imprisonment, he was 495 00:28:00,956 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: guided by his understanding of stoicism. His conduct as a 496 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:06,796 Speaker 1: prisoner was so virtuous that he was awarded the Medal 497 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:09,836 Speaker 1: of Honor. Upon his return, Stockdale went on to lecture 498 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:12,556 Speaker 1: about his life behind bars. He urged other people to 499 00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 1: implement the lessons of Epictetus in their own daily lives. Stoicism, 500 00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:20,956 Speaker 1: Stockdale said, is a noble philosophy that proved more practicable 501 00:28:21,116 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 1: than a modern cynic would expect, But there's still one 502 00:28:25,116 --> 00:28:28,156 Speaker 1: more episode in this current season of Happiness Lessons of 503 00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 1: the Ancients, So join me next time when we travel 504 00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: way way back in time to meet the Buddha. The 505 00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley. 506 00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:43,276 Speaker 1: The show was mastered by Evandiola, and our original music 507 00:28:43,356 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 1: was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to the entire 508 00:28:47,036 --> 00:28:52,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin crew, including mil LaBelle, Carli Migliori, Heather Fine, Sophie Crane, mckibbon, 509 00:28:53,076 --> 00:28:57,236 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. The 510 00:28:57,276 --> 00:28:59,996 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and 511 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:01,596 Speaker 1: meet doctor Laurie Santos