1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and today is Saturday. Once more, 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: so we have an episode from the vault. This is 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: going to be Odds and Evens, Part three, and it 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: originally published nine to twelve, twenty twenty four. Enjoy Welcome 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: and we are back for the third and final part 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 2: in our series on the psychology and cultural significance of 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: number paroity pr it y parody referring to whether a 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: number is even or odd, and we are ending it 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: with an odd number of episodes that just felt right now. 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: If you haven't heard the other parts in this series, 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: you might want to go back in list into those first. 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: But in part one we talked about the mathematical principle 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: of number parity, as well as some evidence that people, 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: if given the opportunity, will sometimes project associations and emotions 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 2: onto even and odd numbers, for example, by maybe feeling 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: more positivity toward even numbers on average, or by having 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 2: an esthetic preference for odd numbers in visual art, as 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: reflected in the conventional rule of thirds and rule of 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: odds in art theory, which we discussed in some detail 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: in that episode. But then we also brought in some 25 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: questions and counter evidence about the real world validity and 26 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: alleged universality of these preferences for odds in art. In 27 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 2: part two of the series, we talked about a research 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: paper on the cognitive psychology of number parity, which advanced 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: what I thought was a really interesting argument that despite 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: the fact that all positive integers are mathematically defined as 31 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: simply odd or even and nothing in between, our brains 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: may in practice treat some numbers as more even or 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: more odd than others, mentally transforming these definitionally discrete categories 34 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: into a semi smooth gradient. And this could be due 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: to multiple factors, involving mathematical properties like the ease of divisibility, 36 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 2: and also linguistic properties about how easily we process different 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: words and their associated concepts. We also talk some more 38 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: about even and odd groupings in visual art, specifically in 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: religious images such as that of the ten headed demon 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: king Ravina in Hindu mythology, and we also talked about 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: preferences for even or odd groupings on food plates. I 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: think the conventional wisdom favors odd numbers of food items, 43 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: but the research maybe paints a slightly more complicated picture. 44 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in either case, what does what does 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: a plate of food and the multi headed incarnation of 46 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: a Hindu god? What do they have in common? It's 47 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: that there are other things involved and how you're ultimately 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: going to perceive this image. Either religious iconography is going 49 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: to be trying to relate other concepts to you the viewer, 50 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: the intended audience viewer, and the food imagery is of 51 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: course showing you something that on some level at least 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: you want to eat. 53 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So we're here today to finish off this 54 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: series with a few more things about odd and even topics. 55 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: So I just wanted to mention at the top of 56 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: the episode here a few more interesting ideas I came 57 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: across while reading about events and odds. Previously, we talked 58 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: about some evidence that at least in certain contexts, people 59 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: like some numbers more than others. For example, they may 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: have more positive emotional feelings about even numbers, or at 61 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: least about numbers that are easily divisible because one of 62 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: the studies we talked about in Part one apparently found 63 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: that people had more positive feelings toward even numbers and 64 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 2: numbers to visible five. Coming back to the question of 65 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: certain numbers feeling more even or less odd than they 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: really are. So a great example is that twenty five 67 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: is an odd number, but why does it feel like 68 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: an even number? To me? I would say the ease 69 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 2: of divisibility by the sub base of five is a 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: pretty good guess. And this sort of brings me back 71 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: to an idea I first encountered in a couple of 72 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: the articles that we were talking about in Part one 73 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 2: by a British author named Alex Bellows who writes newspaper 74 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: columns about mathematics and puzzles sometimes, but it also written 75 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: a book addressing some of these topics. And in these 76 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: articles he talked about people's feelings about odd and even numbers, 77 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: and the idea he raises that if it's true that 78 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: people sometimes feel better about even numbers than odd ones, 79 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: what if that sense of liking for even numbers is 80 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: related to the concept of processing fluency. Now, this is 81 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: a psychological concept that has come up the show before. 82 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: The gist of the idea is that a lot of 83 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: the judgments that humans make, from whether we like something 84 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: to whether we trust a piece of information or believe 85 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: something is true, a lot of these judgments are influenced 86 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: by our subconscious reaction to how easy it is for 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: us to mentally process the stimulus in question. There are 88 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: a lot of studies looking at this. I remember this 89 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: came up when we were discussing the illusory truth effect, 90 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: the idea that if a claim a claim may have 91 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: no real evidence for it, or you may have no 92 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: particular reason for believing a claim is true, but if 93 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: you hear it repeated a bunch of times, it starts 94 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: to feel more and more true to you. And one 95 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: of the popular explanations for this effect is the idea 96 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: that hearing a hearing a claim on subsequent exposures increases 97 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: its process in fluency because it's more a miliar to you. 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 2: You've heard it before, so it's easier to take in 99 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: the second, third, fourth, fifth time you hear it, and 100 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 2: thus it because it has increased processing fluency, it just 101 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 2: feels more right, It feels more true. One of the 102 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 2: key findings that already came up in some of the 103 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: papers we talked about in Part two is that it 104 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: seems even numbers are on average more easily processed than 105 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: odd numbers are. You know, when it's easier to think 106 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: about even numbers, we can more quickly classify them mathematically 107 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 2: as even numbers, it's easier to think about doing mathematical 108 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: operations with them. Odd numbers are just they're introducing friction 109 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: to your brain when you have to consider them. And 110 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: if this is the case, it could be a major 111 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 2: contributor to these particular situations where people seem to like 112 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 2: even numbers better than odd numbers. But of course we 113 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: don't always like even numbers better than odd numbers. And 114 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: this comes back to the issues of these additional bits 115 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: of context and cultural associations happen to pin onto these numbers, 116 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: and whether at the time of us having a feeling 117 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: about a number or making a judgment about it, these 118 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: other associations become salient. So anyway, that brings me to 119 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: another line of research that I stumbled across when looking 120 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: into this, that I thought was curious and sort of 121 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: funny also, which is the apparent association between number parity 122 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: and the social concept of gender. Now in much the 123 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 2: same way, it seems absurd that without any context, in 124 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: other words, without quantifying anything in particular, specific numbers whatever 125 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: feel good or bad to people. It also seems kind 126 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: of absurd that anyone would think of standard Arabic numerals 127 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: as masculine or feminine. But there are some experiments in 128 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: which researchers claim to have found that in some contexts 129 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: there is a pattern of gendered associations between odd and 130 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: even numbers that emerge. 131 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: This is interesting because I I was thinking about gender 132 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: numbers earlier in the research process for this series, because 133 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: I ran across an interesting skit about the number one 134 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: on Sesame Street. 135 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: Oh care to elaborate? 136 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: Oh sure, sure, So in this sketch, this is from 137 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, so this is not one that I 138 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: was originally exposed to as a kid. But we have 139 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: number one, which is of course a muppet. It is 140 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: the numeral one, and it is a she. So the 141 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: number one she is feeling really down about herself because 142 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: she is such a low value number, like you know, 143 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: it's just she's it's one and then zero, like all 144 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: the other numbers are more potent than her, more important 145 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: than her, and she feels she's really feeling down in 146 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: the dumps about it. Well, who comes up to cheer 147 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: her up? But the Count? Oh, And the Count proceeds 148 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: to sing an entire song for her about how important 149 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: she is numerically, and then afterwards he's like, do you 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: feel better? And she's like, well a little bit, and 151 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: he says, well, I'm going to sing it for you 152 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: one more time. But it got me think. It's like, well, 153 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't think about one being male female, 154 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: what have you? I didn't think about the gender of 155 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: the number one. I just considered it like a number. 156 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: But now I'm thinking of it. I just can't help 157 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: but picture it with like the big full lips and 158 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: the beauty mark here from this nineteen ninety seven Sesame 159 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: Street sketch. 160 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: Well, that is adorable. I like the Count. I hope 161 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: that the Count can help any number feel better about itself. 162 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: All numbers are important, but one is really special. 163 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the Count is going to be the 164 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: biggest fan, the biggest supporter of any number. He's not 165 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: going to pull a Harry Neilson and talk about how 166 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: crappy the number one is and how number two is 167 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,239 Speaker 1: also no good. He's a big fan of all of them. 168 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 2: I like knowing you can count on the count for 169 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: emotional support, so anyway to mention A couple of these 170 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: studies apparently finding this association between gender and number parody. 171 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: A couple of the ones I came across were by 172 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 2: a pair of researchers named Wilkie and Bodenhausen. One of 173 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: these papers was from twenty twelve in the Journal of 174 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: Experimental Psychology, another one by the same authors from twenty 175 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: fifteen in Frontiers in Psychology, and these papers published the 176 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: results of a number of different experiments about the gender 177 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: associations of odd and even numbers. Now, some of these 178 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: experiments involved explicit judgments, just asking people straight up whether 179 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: they felt like specific numbers were more masculine or feminine, 180 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: and other experiments looked for indirect associations, like people's tendency 181 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: to interpret the faces of babies or unfamiliar foreign names 182 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: with different genders when they were labeled with different numbers. 183 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: And to note that this indirect measure here does rely 184 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: on implicit association tests, which have been subjected to various 185 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: methodological critiques over the years. They've undergone some refinements over 186 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: time to try to improve reliability. But there's still sort 187 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: of debates about how they can be depended on and 188 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: in what context. So anyway, caution on relying too much 189 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 2: on the implicit parts of these findings. But the authors 190 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 2: say from the totality of their experiments that on average, 191 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 2: for some reason, people from sample groups within the United 192 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: States are more likely to say that odd numbers are 193 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: masculine and even numbers are feminine. And while that's the 194 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: general trend, there are some exceptions and caveats. While they 195 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: say that this pattern was on average true for everyone, 196 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: the association was stronger among women, So on average, women 197 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: were more likely to view odd numbers as more masculine 198 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: and less feminine than even numbers. Weirdly, this is where 199 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: it starts getting funny. I thought the numbers in when 200 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: the numbers involved were two digit instead of one digit, 201 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: men started to drift away from this parody association and 202 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 2: started to say that all numbers were masculine, regardless of parody. 203 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: So I don't whenever we look at studies like this, 204 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: By the way, I always like raise caution because I 205 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: just know from experience a lot of people get real 206 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 2: excited about like gender differences in responses to psychological experiments 207 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: and then start overinterpreting, thinking it explains everything about men 208 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: and women. Oh, you know why my husband or my 209 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: wife acts a certain way, et cetera. And so I 210 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: will raise the same caution here. You know, it's just 211 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: a few experiments. We're not sure if this is a 212 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: super robust finding, and even if it is robust, it's 213 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: easy to get carried away just reading too much into 214 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: little psychological quirks like this. However, I could not resist 215 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: finding it hilarious to imagine a guy looking at numbers 216 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: higher than nine and being like, thirty four. Huh, that's 217 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: a big number. That's a macho man. 218 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: In between thoughts about ancient real right. 219 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so in reality it's probably not that simple, but 220 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: I was laughing for several minutes after I read this. Anyway, 221 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: the authors of these studies, so they're making an argument 222 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: not that there actually is something objectively or universally gendered 223 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: about even and odd numbers, and instead they're sort of 224 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 2: making a case about what they call, quote, the pervasiveness 225 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: of gender as a social scaffolding for generating understandings of 226 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: abstract concepts. So the way I take that is they're 227 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 2: sort of saying gender is such an important concept to 228 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: people that we subconsciously apply it to categories of objects 229 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: that have nothing to do with the primary understanding of 230 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: masculinity or femininity. It's just like a major way of 231 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: making category distinctions that the brain kind of defaults to, 232 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 2: even in situations that don't have anything to do with 233 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: biological sex or with the social roles of gender. 234 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: Right right, So yeah, it wouldn't be like the hypothetical 235 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: male in question is making a conscious effort to think 236 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: about all higher numbers as men. It's a little more 237 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: new as a little more subconscious than that. 238 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: Now I mentioned that those studies were done on us 239 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: test subjects. I came across an interesting variation with respect 240 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: to culture. So there was a twenty twenty one study 241 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: in Frontiers and Psychology by Jordan Yakani and Sheen which 242 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: found some consistency and some variation across cultures regarding the 243 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: perceived gender of numbers. These researchers tested whether the same 244 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: patterns of association between number parity and gender would show 245 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: up among Arabic speaking people native to the UAE, and 246 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: their top level findings were that there were patterns of 247 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: gender association with number parity, but on the implicit association 248 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: of numbers with faces, the subjects in the UAE were 249 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: more likely to associate even numbers with their own gender, 250 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: whichever that was so, men seeing even numbers as more masculine, 251 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 2: women seeing even numbers as more feminine. And these findings 252 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: indicate that it may be cross culturally common to associate 253 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: even in odd numbers with gender, at least in some 254 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: weekly held way, to make some kind of weak association 255 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: of that kind, but that the association can vary from 256 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 2: culture to culture, which actually makes a lot of sense 257 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: to me that I think the idea would sort of 258 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: be that gender is a category lens that we're very 259 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: quick to apply to all kinds of phenomena outside of 260 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: its primary cultural meaning, but exactly how we apply it 261 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: probably depends on a lot of subtle influences that can 262 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: easily vary person to person and culture to culture, though 263 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: apparently within a given language culture, one way of making 264 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: the association is probably more common than another. So anyway, 265 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: all the warnings I gave up top about not reading 266 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: too much into these kinds of findings, but I do 267 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: think if this is basically on the right track, it's 268 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: an interesting example of the way that we we just 269 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: kind of recklessly apply category distinctions across every domain of life, 270 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: whether it really makes direct sense or not. You know, 271 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: I think we if we ever talked about the idea 272 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: on the show before, some people seem to think like 273 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: dogs or boys, cats or girls. 274 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. I have caught myself falling into that trap as well, 275 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: Like I kind of on a default level assume cats 276 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: are girls and dogs are boys until I know differently 277 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: concerning individual cats and dogs, and I don't know. One 278 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: reason for that is probably that I've only ever had cats, 279 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: and those cats have always been girls. I don't know, yeah, 280 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: female cats. Sorry, some of them have been very old ladies. 281 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: Then again, at least cats and dogs are like animals. 282 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: You know. It's I guess it's even funnier thinking about 283 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: the way that we we just wantonly apply these categories, 284 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: possibly even to things like abstract numbers and symbols that 285 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: that don't even have like you know, bodies or minds 286 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: or anything. Yeah. 287 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: The only the other prime example that comes to mind 288 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: is when especially a ship but sometimes other vehicles or 289 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: gendered as female. 290 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that always seemed funny to me. 291 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: All right, Now for this next little bit, I wanted 292 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: to talk briefly about the word odd. I was looking 293 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: at other angles on odd and even, and I came 294 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: across this excellent write up on Websters, and it points 295 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: out that the word in English comes from the Old 296 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: Norse word audie odd i, meaning point of land in 297 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: the geographical sense. So it's like the point of a triangle, 298 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: and so it eventually came to mean triangle, and it 299 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: also came to mean odd, as the point of a 300 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: triangle triangle must always oppose the two other corners, so 301 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: it's like the two other corners are an even pair, 302 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: and if they were to leave, then the audi is alone. 303 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: Wow, that's almost poetic. That's like a beautiful etymology. 304 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. And eventually from here the term transfers over into English, 305 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: and by the fourteenth century it was written down, so 306 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: you know, it may have made the journey. It probably 307 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: it definitely made the journey earlier than that, but that's 308 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: when we have written evidence of it. And initially the 309 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: word odd meant without a corresponding mate, so it was 310 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: still like tied up with this idea of like to 311 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: leave and leave one. But then it comes to mean 312 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: irregular or non conformist, and Webster's notes that during the 313 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, this usage of odd in English 314 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: language was a good thing. It meant you stood out, 315 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: you know. It's like, oh, look at that odd character there, 316 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: We've got to go chat him up. He has lots 317 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: of interesting things to say as he drinketh from his 318 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: skull and walketh is bear. But then by the seventeenth 319 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: century it comes to lean more toward the eccentric and 320 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: even dare we say, the weird, in the sense that 321 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: you might be like, let's stay away from the guy 322 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: with the bear and the skull. Lord knows what he's 323 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: going to talk about. Let's keep a distance. Wow. 324 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: It almost invokes like a story in the sense that 325 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: if you imagine there were three people and two of 326 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: them left, and now one is odd. Why did the 327 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: other two leave? Were they driven away by the behavior 328 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 2: of the first one? Or could they just not handle 329 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 2: the genius? 330 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: Yes, and my apologies to Lord Byron Fans, since he's 331 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: barely covered in the centuries reference there. But Webster's also 332 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: points out that the use of the noun odd for 333 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: a point of land seems to have crossed over a 334 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: second time into English during the nineteenth century, though more 335 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: exclusively to northern England and Scotland. Oh and one more 336 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: little bit here that I ran across. Audi is also 337 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: the name of a town in Iceland. And well, I'm 338 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: not as sure about the direct linguistic connection here between 339 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: what we're talking about and the name of the town 340 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: I did run across. The picture of a statue of 341 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: Salmon the Wise hitting the Devil, and the devil may 342 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: or may not be in the form of a seal 343 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: here with a bible. This was I found this a 344 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: photograph of this on a blog post by eric O 345 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: Scott on the website The Wild Hunt. And this ties 346 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: into a past episode because in our series on Shadows 347 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: from last October that is going to re air this October, 348 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about the shadow wizard and 349 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: priest semond or Semonder, the Wise, who has various encounters 350 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: with the Devil. I don't think we talked about him 351 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: hitting the devil with a Bible, but there is an 352 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: episode where he ends up having his shadow stolen by 353 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: the devil. 354 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 2: Right doesn't he go to like the Devil's College or 355 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: the Devil's School to learn the learn the magical arts. 356 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 2: But then the devil is supposed to grab one of 357 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: the students at the end of the semester and keep them. 358 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: But semen, they're various tellings, but semen find some way 359 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: to kind of trick the devil and escape. 360 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and he like goes to snatch his soul 361 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: and gets his shadow instead and so forth. So I 362 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm drifting drifting off topic here, but we're 363 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: still somewhere in the neighborhood of a lot and even now. Next, 364 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: I would like to turn to evens and odds and biology. 365 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: This is an area that, uh where you can you know, 366 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: I guess with any of this you have to, especially 367 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: when you're playing in to biology, you have to think 368 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: about like the relationship between numbers and reality, and you 369 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: can get, you know, kind of go do a fair 370 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: amount of navel gazing on that in and of itself. 371 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: But you know, just as we see a tendency for 372 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 1: external symmetry and biological organisms, we at least to some extent, 373 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: see a tendency toward even numbers. Again, huge caveat here. 374 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: It kind of it can also depend on exactly how 375 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 1: you want to cut it, because you know, you can 376 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: take a quick survey of your own body, and chances 377 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: are you're going to find some even numbers in play. 378 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: You know, two arms, to let, four limbs total, ten fingers, 379 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: ten toes, two eyes, two nostrils, and so forth. On 380 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: the other hand, I mean, yes, you do have one 381 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: mouth and so forth. But you know, the still of 382 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: course lines up with the basic idea of bilateral symmetry. 383 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: Divide a creature down the middle and you have two 384 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: equal sides, though of course we also have to throw 385 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: in the other caveat that the average human being is 386 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: not perfectly symmetrical, and artificially symmetrical faces tend to read 387 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: as uncanny to us. 388 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 2: For this reason, we actually did a series on biological 389 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: symmetry and asymmetry a couple of years back. I don't 390 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: recall it was that the series called The Lesser of 391 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: Two crab Claws, where. 392 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: I think the fiddler crabs mm hm, yes, Because you know, 393 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: there are plenty of examples too in the biological world 394 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: which we get into in that series, where there is 395 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: a glaring asymmetry. So anyway, it would be a gross mistake. Though, 396 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: coming back to odds and evens, if you were to 397 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: say that you only see even numbers and organisms. That 398 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: is absolutely not true, and they're ultimately far more common 399 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: place and satisfying ways to apply numbers more universally to nature, 400 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: such as say the Fibonacci sequence so forth. But it's 401 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: still interesting to see cases where there is that there 402 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: seems to be a tendency toward even numbers, and still 403 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: looking at the exceptions to those possible rules and possible tendencies. 404 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: One place that start is with chromosomes. So a chromosome 405 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: is a DNA package that contains all the genetic material 406 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: of an organism, and the chromosome count for individual species 407 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: varies greatly, and it has nothing to do with it 408 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 1: doesn't correlate with the apparent complexity of an organism. So 409 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, for example, a jack jumper and has a 410 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: single pair of chromosomes, while turkey has eighty. A human 411 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 1: of course has forty six, and then you have a 412 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: case like and to be clear, you can also get 413 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: odd numbers via genetic disorders. But one of the biggest 414 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: examples it's often brought up of an odd number of 415 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: chromosomes in an organism is the mule. This is a 416 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: cross between donkey and a horse of course, and it, 417 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, tends out for having sixty three and they're 418 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: usually infertile because of this. And there's some other interesting 419 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: outliers as well, like the Indian Mutjak, in which males 420 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: tend to have seven to the female six. In the 421 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: swamp Wallaby you see eleven for males and ten for females, 422 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: and there are various other examples of this nature. But 423 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: of course this is all hidden to the naked eye. 424 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: Limbs stand out far more in human consideration when we're 425 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: talking about evens and odds, and so this raises the 426 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: question what if anything naturally has an odd number of arms? 427 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: And basically the answer is nothing except blank. And I'll 428 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: come back to the blank in just a second. But 429 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: there's one potential possibility that often comes up if you're 430 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: just scanning the names of the popular names of organisms, 431 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: and it's one. There's one that came up on a 432 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: Monster Fact episode several weeks back. There is a species 433 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: of octopus known as the seven armed octopus. 434 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: Now that is an oxymoron, isn't it right? 435 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: Right? Because if you know anything about octopi, it is that, 436 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: as the name implies, they have eight arms. So if 437 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: you had a seven armed octopus that that would be interesting. 438 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: Why does it have why does it seem to have 439 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: seven arms? So this octopus is also known as the 440 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: septipus or the blob octopus, and it is Halofron atlanticus. 441 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: And here's the thing, it actually does have eight arms. 442 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: It like, do not believe the popular name. Uh, it's 443 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: just that the males specialized fertilization arm. It's hectocoidalus remains 444 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: coiled away in a sack beneath the right the right eye. 445 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: So this is a specialized arm. In various sephalopods have 446 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: these and there it's the kind of arm that will 447 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: be used to slip in genetic material or sometimes it 448 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: is like left detached and left with the mate. So 449 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: this species has a specialized arm for mating, and it 450 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: keeps it stored away out of sight behind the right eye. 451 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: And so if you're just checking out the specimen and 452 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: you don't know what to look for, you might see 453 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: only seven arms and assume, well, here we are, it's 454 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: a seven armed octopus. But like I said, there are 455 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: some examples of animals with an odd number of limbs. 456 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: But to find one we have to look to the 457 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: marine invertebrates known as c stars, which tend to boast 458 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: five arms, though they can't have more depending on the species. 459 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: Five arms in a radial presentation. I mean, everyone knows 460 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: what a starfish looks like. You've seen SpongeBob. You get 461 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: the general idea. 462 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 2: Oh okay, and here's where we get into the different 463 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: types of symmetry that are found in animal body plans. Right. 464 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 2: Because while most animals, and especially most animals we're familiar with, 465 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: have a bi ladder really symmetrical body plan it can 466 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 2: be divided down the middle and folded in half, there 467 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: are some animals that live, especially in the ocean, that 468 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: have a radially symmetrical body plan, meaning it can be 469 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 2: it is symmetrical in that it has copied segments, but 470 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: they are copied by going around in a circle instead 471 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: of folding in half down the middle. 472 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And this is a This is especially interesting 473 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: concerning the sea star because this comes back to something 474 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: we talked about perhaps last October as well, that, according 475 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: to some analysis, particularly a twenty twenty three study publishing 476 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: the journal Nature by Formery at All, the c star 477 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: is really more of the head with five or more extensions. 478 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: They're not really arms. They're more like head projections, which 479 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: is an interesting way of looking at it. But another 480 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: thing that they point out in this article is that 481 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: sea stars evolved from an ancestor that add two fold 482 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: or bilateral symmetry, and it develops from larvae that also 483 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: have twofold or bilateral symmetry, but they have a typically 484 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, fivefold radial adult body plan. So yeah, another 485 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 1: fascinating example. Now, another place to look for even numbers 486 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: in a mammal is, of course, look to the nipples. 487 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: Humans typically have two of these, though to be clear, 488 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: you do have situations where people have, like say, a 489 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: third nipple, but generally speaking you're dealing with a two 490 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: nipple scenario. If you have a cat, you can. I 491 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: don't recommend feeling around because unless you're a professional, because 492 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: you will often get clawed for this. But cats have 493 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: six to eight nipples, and indeed most mammals have an 494 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: even number of nipples. But if you turn to the marsupial, 495 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: the American opossum, you will find a famous outlier here 496 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: with an array of thirteen nipples. 497 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 2: Now, don't start putting your cultural associations on the opossum. 498 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 2: No one of its nipples is the unlucky one. 499 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: Now, because when you look at the number of young 500 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: they have like it's it's it's the like the ghost 501 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: nipples past thirteen that were the unlucky ones, because they 502 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: generally have and this is environmentally dependent, they generally have 503 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: like twenty young. So not everybody's gonna get a nipple 504 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: and survive. But but yeah, you can. You can look 505 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: up I don't strongly recommend the opossum nipple google image search, 506 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: but you can. You can find some illustrations that I 507 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 1: think are ultimately more helpful and better for you, know, 508 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: your sanity, than looking up the actual images of opossom 509 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: nipple arrangements. But the illustrations give you the general idea. 510 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: So I've seen this described as two arches of six nipples, 511 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: with one nipple located centrally. I've also seen it talked 512 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: about in terms of being like a U shape or 513 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: circular shape inside of the female opossum's pouch. Now, there 514 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: are various other classifications of the un and odds we 515 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: might get into there. Of course, odd toed and even 516 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: toed ungulates. Tapers, for example, have four hoofed toes in 517 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: the front and three hoofed toes in the back. Most 518 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: rhino species have three digits on each foot and in general, though, 519 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: and we've gotten into this a bit in the past, 520 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: especially when we talked about horse hoofs, evolution has resulted 521 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: in digit numbers greater and less than the human five 522 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: that we take for granted, you know, because you can 523 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: look at the horse's hoof and see it as a 524 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: single toe, a single great toe foot. And we see 525 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: the opposite as well in some other organisms, with the 526 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: development of a sixth pseudothumb. This is you can find 527 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: these in the giant panda, for example, where this has evolved. 528 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: It's not truly an additional digit on the hand, but 529 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: it is basically like doing the work of an extra 530 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: partially evolved digit to aid in the NonStop consumption of bamboo. 531 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: And then we also see a remarkable pseudo thumb emerge 532 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: on the hand of the II lemur. So the II 533 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: lemur may be a lemur that a number of view 534 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: familiar with from various nature documentaries, because it is a 535 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: very weird, goblin esque looking creature. It's it's it's wonderful, 536 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: I say it is. It is weird. In all of 537 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: the great ways that an animal can be weird. You know, 538 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: it is nocturnal. Uh, it again looks kind of like 539 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: a goblin, and it has these very specialized hands that 540 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: feature a super long middle finger, which it uses. Uh. 541 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: It uses it specialized hands to like cap on wood 542 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: and then uses that that super long middle finger to 543 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: reach in and dig out grubs and wood burrowing insects 544 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: to eat. 545 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it sort of has nose Feratu hands. But 546 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: I can't emphasize enough that the face in many photos 547 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 2: is going, oh dude, it's like very big wide eyes 548 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: and the mouth open like it is shouting at you 549 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: in excitement and surprise. 550 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's the situation those seems to be pretty 551 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: fascinating here because they have this super specialized again long 552 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: middle finger. It basically has a single use. It's essentially 553 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: a unit tasker. But that means that they need a 554 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: little more help climbing. So it's like, you know, it's 555 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: like they had a callub evolution and say, look, I 556 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: need to put an order in for an extra digit. 557 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: Why you already have five digits. Well, yes, but I've 558 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: specialized one to the degree that it can no longer 559 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: help me in climbing. Trees, So do a search for 560 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: II hands II fingers to get a sense of what 561 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm talking about here. And that's exactly what I was 562 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: doing when I found a mention of a study that 563 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: I had not run across before. I thought I knew, 564 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: like all the main cool things about the ei. But 565 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: as it turns out that elongated middle finger is proportioned 566 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: as such. First of all, that it would be like 567 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: us having a foot long middle finger. But not only 568 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: do they use this to fish out wood boring insects 569 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: and grubs, but according to Anne Claire Fabre and this 570 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: is an evolutionary biologist at the Natural History Museum of 571 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: burn as cited in a Cassidy Ward article for Sci 572 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: Fi in twenty twenty two, they also use this finger 573 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: to pick their own noses, and they get the whole 574 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: finger in there to the point that they're able to 575 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: reach all the way back through their sinuses to the 576 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: back of their throats and then back out again. The 577 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: most prodigious nose picking in nature. It has to be right, 578 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: certainly with fingers with digits. You know, there may be 579 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: other strong candidates. They're involving animals with very like prehinsile 580 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: tongues and so forth. 581 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 2: But they zoologists right in with better nose picking in 582 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 2: the animal world. 583 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: I mean, this has got to be one of the 584 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: top cases. So I mean, that's okay. So I'm getting 585 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: off off topic a little bit from the evens and 586 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: the odds here, but that study or and or that 587 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: sci fi article is definitely worth picking up, in part 588 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: because they include an illustration of just how far the 589 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: finger is thought to go into the skull, and you 590 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: get like a cutaway of the II's skull to show you, 591 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: like how deep it goes, all the way to the 592 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: back of the throat. Pretty fascinating. 593 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 2: You really wouldn't want to, like trip and fall while 594 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: you're doing that. 595 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: No, all right, I have one more biological tie in 596 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: here concerning odds and evens and animals, and this has 597 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the actual biology of the species. 598 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: It's all about the way we categorize them. We have 599 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: what are called tautonyms. This is when you have a 600 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 1: speed sees alike Rattus rattus, in which both parts of 601 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: the name are identical. The genus is rattus and the 602 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: species is also rattus, So you have Rattus ratus or 603 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: are rattus. 604 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 2: Yes, we've discussed a number of these before, But. 605 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: Then there's a step beyond mere tautonyms. There are triple tautonyms. 606 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: This is where the scientific names end up, I think, 607 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: being rather hilarious at times, and resembling as well magical 608 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: spells of summoning, bringing to mind incantations of beetle juice 609 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: and bloody Mary, where you're saying something three times in 610 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: a row, and anything said three times in a row 611 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: will start sounding silly. For instance, there is a buffo 612 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: bufo buffo, the European toad, so it's genus buffo, and 613 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: then the species is Buffo bufo beautiful. We also have 614 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: the black rat that's Rattus ratus ratus, and then we 615 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: have the South African giraffe or giraffa Giraffa. 616 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 2: Giraffe sounds the most like a spell. 617 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: And there are other fun examples as well, like the 618 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: European eagle owl Boobo Boobo boobo, the Eurasian magpie or 619 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: Pika Pika Pika, and these are all again richly amusing, 620 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: because anything you say three times it's just gonna sound silly. 621 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 2: Wait, isn't that what Pikachu says? 622 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: Pikachu's definitely, says Pikapka. I don't know if there's a 623 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: third Peka in there or not for. 624 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: When Pikachu really means it. 625 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, another interesting thing about this is you'll only find 626 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 1: these in zoology because they are forbidden in botany under 627 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature. So you're not going 628 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: to find anything like cannabis, cannabis, cannabis because it's just 629 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: forbidden that we don't do that in botany. Leave that 630 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: to the zoologists. They're the silly ones. 631 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 2: Well, I like this. I think the botanists should do it. 632 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: Maybe they just don't have the guts. 633 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't get in deep enough to find out 634 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: like when this law was laid out and like how 635 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: for what reason? Like why did they really need to 636 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: take a stand on this. But maybe we'll have to 637 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,959 Speaker 1: get into that another time. 638 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 2: I'm just kidding with you botanists. I know you have 639 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: plenty of courage. All right, Does that do it for 640 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: this series? On even an odd. 641 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: I believe so. Yeah, like you said, we've had our 642 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: third episode. We had a nice odd number of episodes 643 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: for it, so I think we're good to go. 644 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 2: Obviously, there are even an odd instances of pretty much everything. 645 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: So we could keep going forever, but we got to 646 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 2: stop somewhere exactly. 647 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So we'll go ahead and you call it here. 648 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: We want to remind everybody that's Stuff to Blow Your 649 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes, 650 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: publishing and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed 651 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays. On Fridays, 652 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: we set aside most series concerners to just talk about 653 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: a weird film on Weird House Cinema, and then we 654 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: have some bald episodes or reruns at air on Saturdays 655 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: and Mondays. 656 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 2: Here's thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 657 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us 658 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 659 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 660 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 661 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 662 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. 663 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 664 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.