WEBVTT - One Trauma, Two Different Paths 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.316 Pushkin hay Slight Changer is Maya here. Last week we 0:00:32.396 --> 0:00:35.796 brought you the story of Beth Rawdon, the professional climber 0:00:35.836 --> 0:00:39.996 who endured years of post traumatic stress after an international 0:00:40.036 --> 0:00:45.796 climbing expedition went horribly awry. Tommy Caldwell, that's boyfriend at 0:00:45.836 --> 0:00:49.276 the time, was also on that trip. I interviewed him 0:00:49.276 --> 0:00:51.516 on the show a few years ago, and it's been 0:00:51.596 --> 0:00:56.356 amazing to reflect back on how differently he processed that experience. 0:00:56.916 --> 0:00:59.916 It's the same change of plans, but these two people 0:01:00.116 --> 0:01:04.036 took very different paths forward. So today we're sharing that 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:06.716 episode with you again. We hope you enjoy it. 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:11.556 I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings us 0:01:11.556 --> 0:01:14.636 to life, but this turned up the volume on that 0:01:14.836 --> 0:01:16.356 in a pretty incredible way. 0:01:17.036 --> 0:01:19.996 That's Tommy Caldwell, who's considered one of the best rock 0:01:20.036 --> 0:01:23.396 climbers in the world. When he was on a climbing expedition, 0:01:23.516 --> 0:01:25.836 he had a near death experience where he was held 0:01:25.876 --> 0:01:29.116 hostage for six days, and he says what he endured 0:01:29.156 --> 0:01:32.396 on that mountain unlocked a completely new state of mind, 0:01:32.956 --> 0:01:34.836 one he describes as a flow state. 0:01:35.596 --> 0:01:38.516 To me, that flow state, in its most pure form 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:44.356 is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 0:01:44.756 --> 0:01:48.356 You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cue. 0:01:48.396 --> 0:01:52.556 You notice detail in this incredible way. It's like in 0:01:52.596 --> 0:01:57.316 the moment where all odds are against you, suddenly it's 0:01:57.436 --> 0:01:58.836 like the clarity comes. 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:03.836 Tommy tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than 0:02:03.876 --> 0:02:08.036 twenty years ago, and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:11.796 I'm maya Shunker, and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:14.636 a show that dives deep into the world of change 0:02:14.836 --> 0:02:17.636 and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 0:02:17.676 --> 0:02:42.156 our own lives. So to jump in, I would love 0:02:42.236 --> 0:02:45.316 to just hear a bit more about how it is 0:02:45.356 --> 0:02:46.356 that you got into climbing. 0:02:46.636 --> 0:02:48.436 I mean I got into climbing because of my father. 0:02:48.516 --> 0:02:51.796 He was a mountain god, pretty extraordinary human being. He 0:02:51.836 --> 0:02:56.796 was a bodybuilder in the eighties and early nineties, like big, 0:02:57.276 --> 0:03:02.196 super macho man. He had this incredible love of adventure, 0:03:02.396 --> 0:03:05.636 and he was a middle school teacher, and so he 0:03:05.796 --> 0:03:08.836 blended all those things together and used me kind of 0:03:08.876 --> 0:03:13.236 as test subject, Like I was actually, at least socially 0:03:13.596 --> 0:03:19.236 and probably mentally, a pretty meek, delayed child in a 0:03:19.236 --> 0:03:21.036 lot of ways. You know, I'm not good at the 0:03:21.076 --> 0:03:24.516 mental things. You know, I'm socially really shy and having 0:03:24.516 --> 0:03:26.196 a really macho dout. He's like, we got to figure 0:03:26.196 --> 0:03:28.356 out ways to like toughen this kid up so that 0:03:28.436 --> 0:03:30.516 he can deal with the world. And he might have 0:03:30.596 --> 0:03:32.036 overcompensated a little bit. 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:35.516 But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood, 0:03:35.516 --> 0:03:37.756 So I'm curious to know what that's like. Like, what's 0:03:37.796 --> 0:03:39.556 an example of something you would do with your dad? 0:03:39.876 --> 0:03:42.156 I mean, to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 0:03:42.196 --> 0:03:46.316 pretty insane, especially back then. I Mean, one example is 0:03:46.436 --> 0:03:48.916 we height to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 0:03:49.076 --> 0:03:53.556 spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 0:03:53.676 --> 0:03:56.716 you seventy National Park, and we repelled down four hundred 0:03:56.756 --> 0:03:58.996 feet off the rim of USEMENTI valley with you know, 0:03:59.076 --> 0:04:01.076 two thousand feet of exposure below us. 0:04:01.356 --> 0:04:01.676 Wow. 0:04:01.716 --> 0:04:04.436 I did this as like maybe six or seven years old. 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:07.156 Were you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to 0:04:07.196 --> 0:04:08.596 you or was it really hard? 0:04:09.716 --> 0:04:11.876 I think there were there's a couple moments from my 0:04:11.996 --> 0:04:15.796 childhood where I remember feeling pretty scared, like this was 0:04:15.836 --> 0:04:19.116 a bit much, But those were definitely the exceptions, like 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:25.316 I developed a sort of fear tolerance that is probably 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:28.396 part of the reason I've been able to excel the 0:04:28.436 --> 0:04:30.476 way I do now. But there's certainly been times in 0:04:30.476 --> 0:04:32.676 my life where I wonder if it's unhealthy, Like I 0:04:32.716 --> 0:04:34.036 don't get scared when I. 0:04:33.996 --> 0:04:37.636 Should m But can you say a little more about that. 0:04:38.276 --> 0:04:41.876 Yeah, I mean the types of climbing that I do 0:04:41.956 --> 0:04:44.836 in the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, 0:04:44.876 --> 0:04:48.316 for instance, there's a lot of objective hazard, Like there's 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:51.836 instances where you're climbing up a mountain and you know, 0:04:52.036 --> 0:04:54.796 some rock fall event happens, and like a big rock 0:04:54.836 --> 0:04:57.276 will fall and land on a ledge twenty feet away 0:04:57.316 --> 0:05:00.596 from you, And most people get freaked out by that 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:02.756 kind of thing, like they have this emotional kind of 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:06.396 adrenal reaction, and I don't have that so much, And 0:05:06.436 --> 0:05:08.196 I wonder if that's unhealthy. 0:05:08.796 --> 0:05:11.196 Was this just a natural trait that you had, or 0:05:11.236 --> 0:05:13.516 did you feel like you were building it over time 0:05:13.676 --> 0:05:14.236 as a kid. 0:05:14.676 --> 0:05:16.716 I feel like for me, I was building it over time, 0:05:16.876 --> 0:05:19.476 Like there are certain climbs that I go and do, 0:05:19.916 --> 0:05:23.356 climbs where I might fall twenty thirty fifty feet at 0:05:23.396 --> 0:05:25.156 a time, before I get caught from the rope. That 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:28.996 feels incredibly terrifying at first, early on in the season, 0:05:29.036 --> 0:05:31.356 but I get more and more used to it over time. 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:33.636 So I think that can happen within a season or 0:05:33.676 --> 0:05:35.276 on a certain climb, but I think it can also 0:05:35.356 --> 0:05:38.396 happen in a way over the length of your life. 0:05:38.676 --> 0:05:41.596 And so since I started really young doing this stuff, 0:05:41.836 --> 0:05:44.676 I believe that that's why I am the way I am. 0:05:44.716 --> 0:05:48.596 I guess, yeah, it's so interesting, as you were simply 0:05:48.636 --> 0:05:51.476 describing that, I felt tingles in my fingers and a 0:05:51.516 --> 0:05:56.036 pit in my stomach imagining being at that height, so sadly. Yeah, 0:05:56.036 --> 0:05:58.676 I think my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:01.196 Yeah, yeah, it's probably more healthy your ways. 0:06:02.756 --> 0:06:05.196 When Tommy's twenty two, he gets invited to go on 0:06:05.236 --> 0:06:08.476 a climbing trip with three other climbers to Kyrgyzstan, this 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:13.076 beautiful mountainous country in Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, is 0:06:13.116 --> 0:06:16.076 of course excited for the challenge, but the real reason 0:06:16.116 --> 0:06:18.396 he wants to go is because of another climber on 0:06:18.436 --> 0:06:19.796 the trip, Beth Rodden. 0:06:20.236 --> 0:06:23.276 Yeah, that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. 0:06:23.276 --> 0:06:25.836 I would say, we're really really kind of early on 0:06:25.876 --> 0:06:27.276 in our dating period at that time. 0:06:27.436 --> 0:06:30.196 So this was during the like still wooing her stage. 0:06:30.236 --> 0:06:31.916 Is that why you were so excited to go? 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:32.676 Absolutely? 0:06:32.796 --> 0:06:37.636 Yeah, okay, got it. So can you paint a little 0:06:37.636 --> 0:06:40.396 bit of a scene for me about when you first 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:42.476 arrived in Kyrgusan, Like, what is it like and what 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:43.836 climbing lies ahead of you? 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:47.356 Yeah, So we flew in, come around this corner and 0:06:47.396 --> 0:06:51.676 we see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever 0:06:51.716 --> 0:06:54.956 been in a region like the Himalayas or something, the 0:06:55.036 --> 0:06:58.396 mountains they are just so big and so beautiful that 0:06:58.476 --> 0:07:00.396 it's surreal. I mean, it looks like you're looking at 0:07:00.396 --> 0:07:03.636 a painting. It looks completely unreal. And so those big 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:05.836 snow covered mountains are in the background, and then these 0:07:05.876 --> 0:07:09.396 big rock spires, these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, 0:07:09.436 --> 0:07:11.796 the kind of thing that climbers dream of, were kind 0:07:11.796 --> 0:07:14.676 of in the foreground. So we flew and there was 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:17.676 a bit of a valley kind of below all of 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:20.436 the rock spires, and so that's where we made our 0:07:20.476 --> 0:07:23.956 base camp. And some of the people that live in 0:07:23.996 --> 0:07:26.596 the valley came and visited with us and brought us 0:07:27.236 --> 0:07:30.916 you know, yak milk and butter and fresh baked bread, 0:07:30.956 --> 0:07:33.676 and it was like, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was 0:07:33.796 --> 0:07:36.996 pretty idealistic, like they hadn't they had they had encountered 0:07:37.396 --> 0:07:39.596 climbing teams like us in the past, because this is 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:41.796 a place that people had been coming and climbing for 0:07:42.036 --> 0:07:44.916 ten or fifteen years, so we knew that we would 0:07:45.036 --> 0:07:47.676 encounter them, so we brought toys to play with the 0:07:47.756 --> 0:07:53.076 kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, it was. 0:07:53.116 --> 0:07:56.156 It was absolutely beautiful, certainly sort of a dream trip. 0:07:56.196 --> 0:07:59.756 Everything I kind of expected and hoped for at first. 0:08:00.836 --> 0:08:03.436 Can you describe the moment when you realized that you 0:08:03.476 --> 0:08:04.156 were in danger? 0:08:06.156 --> 0:08:10.316 Yeah, So it was very distinct. We had been in 0:08:10.356 --> 0:08:14.156 the valley for five or six days. We had sort 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:17.076 of walked around and scope the rocks and decided that 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:19.276 we're going to do our warm up climb on this mountain, 0:08:19.316 --> 0:08:22.796 which is about a two thousand foot nearly vertical rock cliff. 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:25.356 And then we had spent the first day climbing about 0:08:25.396 --> 0:08:27.996 halfway up that wall, so a thousand feet up. We 0:08:28.596 --> 0:08:30.756 know the style of climbing we're doing. You climb one 0:08:30.836 --> 0:08:33.476 hundred or two hundred feet up and then you haul 0:08:33.596 --> 0:08:37.396 all of your equipment up, which is food, water, portal ledges. 0:08:37.556 --> 0:08:40.196 There's no horizontal places to sleep, so you set up 0:08:40.196 --> 0:08:42.916 your porta ledges and we had this hanging camp a 0:08:42.996 --> 0:08:45.636 thousand feet up this wall. And that was actually the 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:48.796 night of my birthday. Beth presents me with this candle 0:08:48.796 --> 0:08:52.516 we see, happy birthday. It's like there's no light pollution 0:08:52.716 --> 0:08:55.556 at all in this place because you're literally fifty miles 0:08:55.596 --> 0:09:01.076 from the nearest source of electricity, and the stars are 0:09:01.076 --> 0:09:04.276 brilliant and these you know, the moonlight is illuminating these 0:09:04.916 --> 0:09:07.596 these snow covered peaks up valley, and it's yeah, it's 0:09:07.596 --> 0:09:10.836 a pretty incredible scene. And so we go to beds 0:09:10.916 --> 0:09:14.996 feeling like everything's great. And then at very first light 0:09:15.036 --> 0:09:18.676 the next morning, we awake to gunshots, like just startled 0:09:18.676 --> 0:09:22.076 awake to gunshots. And first we thought that it was 0:09:22.996 --> 0:09:26.156 just some hunters in the valley, probably, but then bullets 0:09:26.156 --> 0:09:28.076 started to hit this roof of rock that was right 0:09:28.116 --> 0:09:30.116 above us, and so we realized they were they were 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:33.596 actually shooting at us. They were close by. We had 0:09:33.796 --> 0:09:37.076 a big camera with us with a long telephoto lens, 0:09:37.476 --> 0:09:39.556 and so we pulled out that camera and we could 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:43.276 look down to the ground almost like looking through you know, binoculars, 0:09:43.276 --> 0:09:48.436 and we could see these heavily armed militants on the ground. 0:09:48.836 --> 0:09:51.716 We felt very vulnerable, like we're expecting bullets to just 0:09:51.796 --> 0:09:53.916 rip through the bottom of the portal edge at any moment. 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:59.236 Wow. So in that moment, are you thinking, Okay, they 0:09:59.316 --> 0:10:02.036 might have missed slightly the first with the first few shots, 0:10:02.876 --> 0:10:04.436 but you know we're going to die. 0:10:04.716 --> 0:10:07.196 Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. There's no way 0:10:07.236 --> 0:10:09.796 to run away. I mean, it's just complete. It's like 0:10:09.836 --> 0:10:13.116 somebody's shooting at you and you can't hide behind anything. 0:10:14.316 --> 0:10:17.156 See, you're literally a fix to a vertical wall in 0:10:17.236 --> 0:10:19.996 a tent, right, there's literally no escape route. 0:10:19.916 --> 0:10:22.556 Right, Yeah, I mean moving out of the way. It 0:10:22.556 --> 0:10:24.756 would have been you know, a several hour process to 0:10:25.596 --> 0:10:28.156 just get up and around the corner or something. 0:10:28.956 --> 0:10:31.796 Okay. So then so you hear these gun shots. 0:10:31.956 --> 0:10:36.516 What happens next through our telephoto camera lens, we see 0:10:36.516 --> 0:10:39.836 them sort of waving at us to come down, and 0:10:39.916 --> 0:10:43.796 we know that we have no other option. Basically, they've 0:10:43.836 --> 0:10:46.036 got these big guns. They've proved that they that they're 0:10:46.076 --> 0:10:49.676 good shots with these guns, and so we're like we 0:10:49.756 --> 0:10:52.036 have to go down. So we have a discussion and 0:10:52.116 --> 0:10:54.996 we decide that John Dickey, who is the oldest member 0:10:55.036 --> 0:10:57.956 of our expedition, will go down and try and talk 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:00.276 to them. We're just trying to be super optimistic at 0:11:00.316 --> 0:11:02.796 this point. Maybe they just want information, we don't really know. 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:07.516 And so John starts descending down the wall. Takes them 0:11:07.516 --> 0:11:11.676 probably nearly an hour, and he gets down there, and 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:13.836 we have these two way radios and he had taken 0:11:13.916 --> 0:11:16.516 one of them. When he gets down there, he just 0:11:16.596 --> 0:11:20.716 sounds very serious. He radios back to us and he's like, 0:11:20.876 --> 0:11:22.756 you guys are just going to have to come down. 0:11:23.156 --> 0:11:26.636 So the other three of us just start descending down 0:11:26.636 --> 0:11:28.916 the wall, and when we get to the ground, we're 0:11:28.916 --> 0:11:31.556 confronted with a pretty scary scene. I would say. There's 0:11:31.676 --> 0:11:37.836 two heavily armed men that are wearing this combination of 0:11:38.596 --> 0:11:42.036 like army fatigues, so they look pretty scary, but their 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:46.076 demeanor is actually pretty chill. They wait for us. We 0:11:46.156 --> 0:11:48.996 get to the ground and they're just kind of sitting around, 0:11:49.156 --> 0:11:51.436 not really saying that much, and they and then they 0:11:51.476 --> 0:11:53.596 just kind of wave us on to follow them back 0:11:53.636 --> 0:11:54.316 to base camp. 0:11:55.156 --> 0:11:57.236 A conflict had broken out in the country between the 0:11:57.316 --> 0:12:01.036 Kregeese army and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. Up on 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:03.756 the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 0:12:03.756 --> 0:12:06.476 a Keregee soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 0:12:06.516 --> 0:12:08.916 his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 0:12:09.316 --> 0:12:10.836 to get a closer look at the soldier. 0:12:11.316 --> 0:12:15.036 He just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind 0:12:15.036 --> 0:12:17.516 of scared and very stern, and he had blood all 0:12:17.556 --> 0:12:20.036 over his pants. And I think there was that one 0:12:20.076 --> 0:12:21.996 moment in there where John looked over at us and 0:12:21.996 --> 0:12:25.196 he's like, we're hostages. I think we're hostages, And so 0:12:25.756 --> 0:12:26.996 that's kind of when it struck us. 0:12:27.916 --> 0:12:30.836 The militants waste no time. They lead Tommy and Beth 0:12:30.876 --> 0:12:33.316 and the other climbers into the mountain side at gunpoint, 0:12:33.956 --> 0:12:36.036 and as they start to cross the river, a group 0:12:36.076 --> 0:12:38.516 of Kirky soldiers appear at the top of the hill 0:12:38.956 --> 0:12:40.476 and start shooting at them. 0:12:40.796 --> 0:12:44.116 This battle breaks out essentially, and we hide in this bush, 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:48.756 and Beth and myself and this Kurky soldier end up 0:12:48.756 --> 0:12:51.756 in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 0:12:51.836 --> 0:12:55.756 the rebels told us one by one to run up 0:12:55.756 --> 0:13:00.876 behind this boulder, and the Kirky soldier went first, and 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:02.996 as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 0:13:03.036 --> 0:13:06.996 heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:09.476 and they had just shot him in the him in 0:13:09.516 --> 0:13:11.836 the head right there, and then the rest of us 0:13:11.876 --> 0:13:13.636 had to go up and hide behind that boulder. As 0:13:13.676 --> 0:13:16.436 this battle sort of erupted around us. It was a 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:19.316 full on like war scene. We're hiding behind this boulder. 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:22.196 The boulder was getting you know, bullets were ricocheting off 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:24.996 the boulder. We were behind it, sitting on the dead 0:13:25.036 --> 0:13:28.716 body of this other Kurgey soldier, and they were shooting 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:32.996 these these mortars across at us. I mean, we were 0:13:33.076 --> 0:13:34.356 kind of certain that we were going to die at 0:13:34.356 --> 0:13:34.876 any moment. 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:41.276 I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of going from these immensely 0:13:41.876 --> 0:13:47.796 peaceful climbs in this expansive valley to absolute life or 0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:50.596 death insanity. Would do you remember feeling. 0:13:51.036 --> 0:13:54.516 Definitely running on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 0:13:54.636 --> 0:13:58.476 is not like the rest of life at all. And 0:13:58.556 --> 0:14:02.676 I think it was fear that was more intense and 0:14:02.756 --> 0:14:05.036 far different than anything I had noticed, Like in some 0:14:05.116 --> 0:14:08.076 ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 0:14:08.116 --> 0:14:10.636 my climbing. Life was just way different. 0:14:11.676 --> 0:14:13.996 Tommy, Beth and their crew managed to make it out 0:14:13.996 --> 0:14:17.316 of this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive 0:14:17.396 --> 0:14:20.956 by two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors 0:14:20.996 --> 0:14:23.596 because they don't speak the same language, but from what 0:14:23.676 --> 0:14:26.156 they can glean, there's an older guy who seems to 0:14:26.196 --> 0:14:30.236 be in charge, and then a teenager named Scherapov. During 0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:33.076 the day, the militants lead them around in what ultimately 0:14:33.156 --> 0:14:36.476 ends up being a big circle looking for hiding places. 0:14:36.876 --> 0:14:38.836 And we don't have any food. We had we had 0:14:38.836 --> 0:14:40.916 to abandon all of our food except I had managed 0:14:40.956 --> 0:14:44.156 to shove like five or six energy bars into my pocket. 0:14:44.316 --> 0:14:47.156 So each day we would in the evening, we would 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:50.116 split one of those energy bars between the six of us, 0:14:50.356 --> 0:14:52.756 and that's the only food we had, and we do 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:55.196 kind of feel like we're all in it together, like 0:14:55.236 --> 0:14:57.516 we share our food with them. They didn't just take 0:14:57.556 --> 0:15:00.316 all of our food, They shared it with us, those six, 0:15:00.516 --> 0:15:04.396 you know, energy bars that we had, and the demeanor 0:15:04.516 --> 0:15:08.196 became pretty friendly a lot of the time. And then 0:15:08.356 --> 0:15:12.836 during the day life we would hide in usually just 0:15:13.036 --> 0:15:17.836 absolutely miserable hiding spots, like you know, by rivers under boulders. 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.316 It was always super cold. You know, our teeth were 0:15:21.396 --> 0:15:24.996 chattering all day long, every day, to the point where 0:15:25.036 --> 0:15:27.996 our jaws and our mouths got really sot. We'd be 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:31.636 sitting there hiding for fourteen hours of daylight or whatever, 0:15:31.676 --> 0:15:32.836 and it would feel like a week. 0:15:33.516 --> 0:15:35.476 Did you ever worry that you were going to die 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:38.996 of hypothermia, so it's not just the potential of being killed, 0:15:38.996 --> 0:15:41.396 but also you just might die from extreme conditions. 0:15:41.716 --> 0:15:44.356 Yeah, no, that was definitely a worry of ours. We 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:47.276 were probably on the verge most of the time, and 0:15:47.596 --> 0:15:51.556 we're at a point where we can't really just sit 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:55.076 through these conditions anymore. But then, weirdly, at times, I 0:15:55.116 --> 0:15:57.636 think this is sort of a proven thing that happens 0:15:57.836 --> 0:16:00.956 when you go through this severe hunger, is you have 0:16:01.076 --> 0:16:03.956 these moments of like mental clarity, like you feel like 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:07.796 you are almost more alive than ever. As you're starving 0:16:07.836 --> 0:16:09.716 to death, your body is sort of starts to kick 0:16:09.756 --> 0:16:14.276 into this like survival mode, and so you sort of 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:18.436 alternate alternate between that and then other times just feeling 0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:22.156 really lethargic and really slow and you know, really hungry. 0:16:22.876 --> 0:16:25.156 So We just traveled around like that for six nights, 0:16:25.196 --> 0:16:29.716 getting progressively weaker, and then finally on that last night, 0:16:29.996 --> 0:16:32.676 things are pretty desperate, and so we were left on 0:16:32.756 --> 0:16:38.116 this night with just the young scared soldier Shapov and 0:16:38.236 --> 0:16:40.876 told to climb up this incredibly steep mountain. It was, 0:16:41.476 --> 0:16:43.716 you know, true rock climbing, like it was kind of 0:16:43.796 --> 0:16:45.796 terrain that if you fell on it didn't seem like 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:48.596 you would stop. You would just continue falling until you 0:16:48.636 --> 0:16:50.716 got you know, bouncing down the mountain until you got 0:16:50.756 --> 0:16:54.676 to the bottom. And and shrif Pov was really scared, 0:16:55.316 --> 0:16:57.836 we were actually having to lead the way because we 0:16:57.876 --> 0:17:01.396 were climbers. We would you know, grab his hand and 0:17:01.436 --> 0:17:04.356 pull him up over rock steps. We would point out 0:17:04.396 --> 0:17:07.436 footholds for him to step on. We would sort of 0:17:07.476 --> 0:17:09.796 spot him in case he stumbled, could catch him so 0:17:09.876 --> 0:17:13.316 he didn't just fall down the mountain. And so in 0:17:13.356 --> 0:17:16.076 all of our minds like if there was a time 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:17.236 to escape, this was it. 0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:20.596 So I'm curious. I mean, it seems like the very 0:17:21.316 --> 0:17:24.996 natural instinct to help others was kicking in for you. Right, 0:17:24.996 --> 0:17:28.356 you're spotting this guy, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:32.876 Who were these competing feelings towards him and the situation 0:17:33.836 --> 0:17:37.276 leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 0:17:37.356 --> 0:17:40.636 right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 0:17:40.716 --> 0:17:43.396 a person who might ultimately lead to your death, if 0:17:43.436 --> 0:17:45.756 you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance and 0:17:45.796 --> 0:17:46.436 their situation. 0:17:47.756 --> 0:17:50.596 I mean, I think it felt different at different times. 0:17:50.636 --> 0:17:52.636 Like at times I was like, we should outlast this, 0:17:52.716 --> 0:17:55.116 We should be good human beings as long as we can. 0:17:55.436 --> 0:17:57.396 In a way, of these rebels, I didn't see them 0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:00.916 as super evil people, especially Cherpov who were with Like 0:18:00.956 --> 0:18:02.556 he was just a he was younger, or he was 0:18:02.556 --> 0:18:04.556 probably about my age, or maybe even younger. I think 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:06.796 he was eighteen years old at the time. He was 0:18:06.836 --> 0:18:10.876 a hired mercenary. He was obviously super frightened himself, you know. 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:12.996 He like, who's to say if I didn't grow up 0:18:12.996 --> 0:18:15.116 in a circumstance, I wouldn't have been right there with him. 0:18:15.516 --> 0:18:17.836 So I thought it was sort of morally wrong to 0:18:17.876 --> 0:18:20.436 try and take these guys' lives. But I think on 0:18:20.516 --> 0:18:23.556 this last night, clouds started to roll in, I started 0:18:23.556 --> 0:18:26.036 to rain a tiny bit, and all of us were 0:18:26.036 --> 0:18:28.276 like if we don't escape this scene pretty soon, we 0:18:28.316 --> 0:18:31.316 are going to succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as we 0:18:31.356 --> 0:18:33.916 were getting to the top of the mountain, I knew 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:38.396 that our opportunity to push him was going to be 0:18:38.476 --> 0:18:43.716 gone soon. And Beth had been adamantly against killing somebody 0:18:43.756 --> 0:18:45.996 this whole time, but it was getting pretty dire. So 0:18:46.676 --> 0:18:49.316 I looked over her when we're at her, when we 0:18:49.316 --> 0:18:51.556 were maybe fifty or one hundred feet below the top 0:18:51.596 --> 0:18:52.916 of this mountain, and I was like, do you think 0:18:52.956 --> 0:18:56.276 I should And she didn't say anything, which to me 0:18:56.356 --> 0:18:58.396 that meant that she thought she'd come around, like she 0:18:58.476 --> 0:19:00.316 thought that this was probably the right thing to do. 0:19:01.276 --> 0:19:05.316 And so when he saw the top of the mountain 0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:07.876 kind of close, he got a little bit excited. He 0:19:07.916 --> 0:19:10.756 started to sort of rush up ahead of all of us. 0:19:12.076 --> 0:19:17.756 He is in Sharapov and I then started to sort 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:22.356 of sneak up behind him, and he was so focused 0:19:22.356 --> 0:19:24.476 on like staying attached to the mountain, you know, like 0:19:24.476 --> 0:19:26.356 grabbing the right hand holds and stuff, that he really 0:19:26.356 --> 0:19:28.756 didn't even notice me. And I ran up behind him, 0:19:28.796 --> 0:19:31.636 and I just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged 0:19:31.676 --> 0:19:34.156 backwards on it and he started to fly off the 0:19:34.156 --> 0:19:37.676 mountain side. He fell about twenty feet, hit this ledge 0:19:37.676 --> 0:19:39.436 that was below us, bounced off of it like the 0:19:39.476 --> 0:19:44.516 sloping ledge, and then out of sight, just in the blackness. 0:19:46.236 --> 0:19:48.396 We'll be right back. With a slight change of plans. 0:19:52.636 --> 0:19:55.356 I'm maya shunker, and this is a slight change of plans. 0:19:56.276 --> 0:19:58.956 Tommy Caldwells made the bold decision to push one of 0:19:58.996 --> 0:20:02.636 his captors off the cliff. Years later, a journalist working 0:20:02.636 --> 0:20:05.756 on the story discovers that Scherapov did not actually die 0:20:05.756 --> 0:20:08.836 from the fall, but at the time Tommy assumes he's 0:20:08.916 --> 0:20:12.316 killed Cherapov, and for Tommy, the reality of what he 0:20:12.476 --> 0:20:14.516 just did comes crashing down on him. 0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:17.916 It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:21.036 I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 0:20:21.076 --> 0:20:26.436 like closing my eyes incredibly tight and like seeing like 0:20:26.516 --> 0:20:30.316 weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like it's 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:33.996 almost hard to explain it. It was just like emotionally 0:20:34.116 --> 0:20:36.756 overwhelming in a way that I've never experienced. You know. 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:41.076 Beth was really comforting me. I mean she like I 0:20:41.156 --> 0:20:42.756 like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:45.076 and she was and I didn't know. She suddenly think 0:20:45.116 --> 0:20:46.996 that I was like this evil person because we hadn't 0:20:47.036 --> 0:20:48.676 really been able to talk it out what I was 0:20:48.716 --> 0:20:50.676 about to do, so she was the one was like, 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:54.196 you're You're my hero. You We're gonna be okay because 0:20:54.236 --> 0:20:56.356 of you, and trying to say the right things to 0:20:56.396 --> 0:20:57.436 help me in that moment. 0:20:58.476 --> 0:21:01.076 The moment doesn't last long, though, with one of their 0:21:01.116 --> 0:21:03.316 captors pushed off the mountain and the other one out 0:21:03.356 --> 0:21:05.796 of sight, Tommy and his team know they need to 0:21:05.836 --> 0:21:07.876 seize the moment and get out of there as quickly 0:21:07.876 --> 0:21:10.556 as possible, so they run down the mountain and find 0:21:10.596 --> 0:21:13.916 safety at a military outpost, and eventually they all make 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:18.316 it back to the US. Almost immediately, Tommy's dad notices 0:21:18.396 --> 0:21:19.116 a change in him. 0:21:20.276 --> 0:21:23.596 I mean, I felt like for a time I sort 0:21:23.636 --> 0:21:27.836 of receded into a ball. I didn't talk to anybody 0:21:27.876 --> 0:21:32.316 except for Beth about personal things, but Beth and a 0:21:32.316 --> 0:21:35.396 few other close friends. I didn't talk to my parents 0:21:35.436 --> 0:21:37.276 that much about it, So I think he probably had 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:39.916