1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:32,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Changer is Maya here. Last week we 2 00:00:32,396 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 1: brought you the story of Beth Rawdon, the professional climber 3 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:39,996 Speaker 1: who endured years of post traumatic stress after an international 4 00:00:40,036 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: climbing expedition went horribly awry. Tommy Caldwell, that's boyfriend at 5 00:00:45,836 --> 00:00:49,276 Speaker 1: the time, was also on that trip. I interviewed him 6 00:00:49,276 --> 00:00:51,516 Speaker 1: on the show a few years ago, and it's been 7 00:00:51,596 --> 00:00:56,356 Speaker 1: amazing to reflect back on how differently he processed that experience. 8 00:00:56,916 --> 00:00:59,916 Speaker 1: It's the same change of plans, but these two people 9 00:01:00,116 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 1: took very different paths forward. So today we're sharing that 10 00:01:04,196 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: episode with you again. We hope you enjoy it. 11 00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:11,556 Speaker 2: I definitely always felt like adversity is what brings us 12 00:01:11,556 --> 00:01:14,636 Speaker 2: to life, but this turned up the volume on that 13 00:01:14,836 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 2: in a pretty incredible way. 14 00:01:17,036 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 1: That's Tommy Caldwell, who's considered one of the best rock 15 00:01:20,036 --> 00:01:23,396 Speaker 1: climbers in the world. When he was on a climbing expedition, 16 00:01:23,516 --> 00:01:25,836 Speaker 1: he had a near death experience where he was held 17 00:01:25,876 --> 00:01:29,116 Speaker 1: hostage for six days, and he says what he endured 18 00:01:29,156 --> 00:01:32,396 Speaker 1: on that mountain unlocked a completely new state of mind, 19 00:01:32,956 --> 00:01:34,836 Speaker 1: one he describes as a flow state. 20 00:01:35,596 --> 00:01:38,516 Speaker 2: To me, that flow state, in its most pure form 21 00:01:38,756 --> 00:01:44,356 Speaker 2: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down. 22 00:01:44,756 --> 00:01:48,356 Speaker 2: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cue. 23 00:01:48,396 --> 00:01:52,556 Speaker 2: You notice detail in this incredible way. It's like in 24 00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:57,316 Speaker 2: the moment where all odds are against you, suddenly it's 25 00:01:57,436 --> 00:01:58,836 Speaker 2: like the clarity comes. 26 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:03,836 Speaker 1: Tommy tapped into this elusive, intoxicating mental state more than 27 00:02:03,876 --> 00:02:08,036 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and he's been relentlessly chasing it ever since. 28 00:02:09,156 --> 00:02:11,796 Speaker 1: I'm maya Shunker, and this is a slight change of plans, 29 00:02:12,316 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: a show that dives deep into the world of change 30 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:17,636 Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in 31 00:02:17,676 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 1: our own lives. So to jump in, I would love 32 00:02:42,236 --> 00:02:45,316 Speaker 1: to just hear a bit more about how it is 33 00:02:45,356 --> 00:02:46,356 Speaker 1: that you got into climbing. 34 00:02:46,636 --> 00:02:48,436 Speaker 2: I mean I got into climbing because of my father. 35 00:02:48,516 --> 00:02:51,796 Speaker 2: He was a mountain god, pretty extraordinary human being. He 36 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 2: was a bodybuilder in the eighties and early nineties, like big, 37 00:02:57,276 --> 00:03:02,196 Speaker 2: super macho man. He had this incredible love of adventure, 38 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 2: and he was a middle school teacher, and so he 39 00:03:05,796 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 2: blended all those things together and used me kind of 40 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:13,236 Speaker 2: as test subject, Like I was actually, at least socially 41 00:03:13,596 --> 00:03:19,236 Speaker 2: and probably mentally, a pretty meek, delayed child in a 42 00:03:19,236 --> 00:03:21,036 Speaker 2: lot of ways. You know, I'm not good at the 43 00:03:21,076 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 2: mental things. You know, I'm socially really shy and having 44 00:03:24,516 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 2: a really macho dout. He's like, we got to figure 45 00:03:26,196 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 2: out ways to like toughen this kid up so that 46 00:03:28,436 --> 00:03:30,516 Speaker 2: he can deal with the world. And he might have 47 00:03:30,596 --> 00:03:32,036 Speaker 2: overcompensated a little bit. 48 00:03:32,076 --> 00:03:35,516 Speaker 1: But I did not have a cool or adventurous childhood, 49 00:03:35,516 --> 00:03:37,756 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to know what that's like. Like, what's 50 00:03:37,796 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: an example of something you would do with your dad? 51 00:03:39,876 --> 00:03:42,156 Speaker 2: I mean, to a lot of people, my childhood seemed 52 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:46,316 Speaker 2: pretty insane, especially back then. I Mean, one example is 53 00:03:46,436 --> 00:03:48,916 Speaker 2: we height to the Lost Arrow Spire, which is the 54 00:03:49,076 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 2: spire that sits two thousand feet above the valley floor 55 00:03:53,676 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 2: you seventy National Park, and we repelled down four hundred 56 00:03:56,756 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 2: feet off the rim of USEMENTI valley with you know, 57 00:03:59,076 --> 00:04:01,076 Speaker 2: two thousand feet of exposure below us. 58 00:04:01,356 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: Wow. 59 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:04,436 Speaker 2: I did this as like maybe six or seven years old. 60 00:04:04,996 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 1: Were you scared? Like did this stuff come naturally to 61 00:04:07,196 --> 00:04:08,596 Speaker 1: you or was it really hard? 62 00:04:09,716 --> 00:04:11,876 Speaker 2: I think there were there's a couple moments from my 63 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 2: childhood where I remember feeling pretty scared, like this was 64 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:19,116 Speaker 2: a bit much, But those were definitely the exceptions, like 65 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:25,316 Speaker 2: I developed a sort of fear tolerance that is probably 66 00:04:25,756 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 2: part of the reason I've been able to excel the 67 00:04:28,436 --> 00:04:30,476 Speaker 2: way I do now. But there's certainly been times in 68 00:04:30,476 --> 00:04:32,676 Speaker 2: my life where I wonder if it's unhealthy, Like I 69 00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 2: don't get scared when I. 70 00:04:33,996 --> 00:04:37,636 Speaker 1: Should m But can you say a little more about that. 71 00:04:38,276 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the types of climbing that I do 72 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:44,836 Speaker 2: in the higher mountains, like when I go to Patagonia, 73 00:04:44,876 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 2: for instance, there's a lot of objective hazard, Like there's 74 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,836 Speaker 2: instances where you're climbing up a mountain and you know, 75 00:04:52,036 --> 00:04:54,796 Speaker 2: some rock fall event happens, and like a big rock 76 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 2: will fall and land on a ledge twenty feet away 77 00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 2: from you, And most people get freaked out by that 78 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:02,756 Speaker 2: kind of thing, like they have this emotional kind of 79 00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:06,396 Speaker 2: adrenal reaction, and I don't have that so much, And 80 00:05:06,436 --> 00:05:08,196 Speaker 2: I wonder if that's unhealthy. 81 00:05:08,796 --> 00:05:11,196 Speaker 1: Was this just a natural trait that you had, or 82 00:05:11,236 --> 00:05:13,516 Speaker 1: did you feel like you were building it over time 83 00:05:13,676 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 1: as a kid. 84 00:05:14,676 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 2: I feel like for me, I was building it over time, 85 00:05:16,876 --> 00:05:19,476 Speaker 2: Like there are certain climbs that I go and do, 86 00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:23,356 Speaker 2: climbs where I might fall twenty thirty fifty feet at 87 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 2: a time, before I get caught from the rope. That 88 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 2: feels incredibly terrifying at first, early on in the season, 89 00:05:29,036 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 2: but I get more and more used to it over time. 90 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:33,636 Speaker 2: So I think that can happen within a season or 91 00:05:33,676 --> 00:05:35,276 Speaker 2: on a certain climb, but I think it can also 92 00:05:35,356 --> 00:05:38,396 Speaker 2: happen in a way over the length of your life. 93 00:05:38,676 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 2: And so since I started really young doing this stuff, 94 00:05:41,836 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 2: I believe that that's why I am the way I am. 95 00:05:44,716 --> 00:05:48,596 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it's so interesting, as you were simply 96 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 1: describing that, I felt tingles in my fingers and a 97 00:05:51,516 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 1: pit in my stomach imagining being at that height, so sadly. Yeah, 98 00:05:56,036 --> 00:05:58,676 Speaker 1: I think my brain architecture is slightly different from yours. 99 00:05:58,996 --> 00:06:01,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's probably more healthy your ways. 100 00:06:02,756 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 1: When Tommy's twenty two, he gets invited to go on 101 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 1: a climbing trip with three other climbers to Kyrgyzstan, this 102 00:06:08,596 --> 00:06:13,076 Speaker 1: beautiful mountainous country in Central Asia. Tommy being Tommy, is 103 00:06:13,116 --> 00:06:16,076 Speaker 1: of course excited for the challenge, but the real reason 104 00:06:16,116 --> 00:06:18,396 Speaker 1: he wants to go is because of another climber on 105 00:06:18,436 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: the trip, Beth Rodden. 106 00:06:20,236 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was certainly my main motivation behind the trip. 107 00:06:23,276 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 2: I would say, we're really really kind of early on 108 00:06:25,876 --> 00:06:27,276 Speaker 2: in our dating period at that time. 109 00:06:27,436 --> 00:06:30,196 Speaker 1: So this was during the like still wooing her stage. 110 00:06:30,236 --> 00:06:31,916 Speaker 1: Is that why you were so excited to go? 111 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:32,676 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 112 00:06:32,796 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, got it. So can you paint a little 113 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 1: bit of a scene for me about when you first 114 00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:42,476 Speaker 1: arrived in Kyrgusan, Like, what is it like and what 115 00:06:42,636 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 1: climbing lies ahead of you? 116 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:47,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we flew in, come around this corner and 117 00:06:47,396 --> 00:06:51,676 Speaker 2: we see these magnificent snow covered peaks. If you've ever 118 00:06:51,716 --> 00:06:54,956 Speaker 2: been in a region like the Himalayas or something, the 119 00:06:55,036 --> 00:06:58,396 Speaker 2: mountains they are just so big and so beautiful that 120 00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 2: it's surreal. I mean, it looks like you're looking at 121 00:07:00,396 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 2: a painting. It looks completely unreal. And so those big 122 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:05,836 Speaker 2: snow covered mountains are in the background, and then these 123 00:07:05,876 --> 00:07:09,396 Speaker 2: big rock spires, these incredible rock spires with perfect rock, 124 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:11,796 Speaker 2: the kind of thing that climbers dream of, were kind 125 00:07:11,796 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 2: of in the foreground. So we flew and there was 126 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:17,676 Speaker 2: a bit of a valley kind of below all of 127 00:07:17,716 --> 00:07:20,436 Speaker 2: the rock spires, and so that's where we made our 128 00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:23,956 Speaker 2: base camp. And some of the people that live in 129 00:07:23,996 --> 00:07:26,596 Speaker 2: the valley came and visited with us and brought us 130 00:07:27,236 --> 00:07:30,916 Speaker 2: you know, yak milk and butter and fresh baked bread, 131 00:07:30,956 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 2: and it was like, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was 132 00:07:33,796 --> 00:07:36,996 Speaker 2: pretty idealistic, like they hadn't they had they had encountered 133 00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 2: climbing teams like us in the past, because this is 134 00:07:39,596 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 2: a place that people had been coming and climbing for 135 00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:44,916 Speaker 2: ten or fifteen years, so we knew that we would 136 00:07:45,036 --> 00:07:47,676 Speaker 2: encounter them, so we brought toys to play with the 137 00:07:47,756 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 2: kids and bits of candy and stuff. Yeah, it was. 138 00:07:53,116 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 2: It was absolutely beautiful, certainly sort of a dream trip. 139 00:07:56,196 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 2: Everything I kind of expected and hoped for at first. 140 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:03,436 Speaker 1: Can you describe the moment when you realized that you 141 00:08:03,476 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 1: were in danger? 142 00:08:06,156 --> 00:08:10,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it was very distinct. We had been in 143 00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:14,156 Speaker 2: the valley for five or six days. We had sort 144 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 2: of walked around and scope the rocks and decided that 145 00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:19,276 Speaker 2: we're going to do our warm up climb on this mountain, 146 00:08:19,316 --> 00:08:22,796 Speaker 2: which is about a two thousand foot nearly vertical rock cliff. 147 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:25,356 Speaker 2: And then we had spent the first day climbing about 148 00:08:25,396 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 2: halfway up that wall, so a thousand feet up. We 149 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:30,756 Speaker 2: know the style of climbing we're doing. You climb one 150 00:08:30,836 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 2: hundred or two hundred feet up and then you haul 151 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 2: all of your equipment up, which is food, water, portal ledges. 152 00:08:37,556 --> 00:08:40,196 Speaker 2: There's no horizontal places to sleep, so you set up 153 00:08:40,196 --> 00:08:42,916 Speaker 2: your porta ledges and we had this hanging camp a 154 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 2: thousand feet up this wall. And that was actually the 155 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:48,796 Speaker 2: night of my birthday. Beth presents me with this candle 156 00:08:48,796 --> 00:08:52,516 Speaker 2: we see, happy birthday. It's like there's no light pollution 157 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:55,556 Speaker 2: at all in this place because you're literally fifty miles 158 00:08:55,596 --> 00:09:01,076 Speaker 2: from the nearest source of electricity, and the stars are 159 00:09:01,076 --> 00:09:04,276 Speaker 2: brilliant and these you know, the moonlight is illuminating these 160 00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:07,596 Speaker 2: these snow covered peaks up valley, and it's yeah, it's 161 00:09:07,596 --> 00:09:10,836 Speaker 2: a pretty incredible scene. And so we go to beds 162 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 2: feeling like everything's great. And then at very first light 163 00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 2: the next morning, we awake to gunshots, like just startled 164 00:09:18,676 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 2: awake to gunshots. And first we thought that it was 165 00:09:22,996 --> 00:09:26,156 Speaker 2: just some hunters in the valley, probably, but then bullets 166 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 2: started to hit this roof of rock that was right 167 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:30,116 Speaker 2: above us, and so we realized they were they were 168 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 2: actually shooting at us. They were close by. We had 169 00:09:33,796 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 2: a big camera with us with a long telephoto lens, 170 00:09:37,476 --> 00:09:39,556 Speaker 2: and so we pulled out that camera and we could 171 00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:43,276 Speaker 2: look down to the ground almost like looking through you know, binoculars, 172 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:48,436 Speaker 2: and we could see these heavily armed militants on the ground. 173 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:51,716 Speaker 2: We felt very vulnerable, like we're expecting bullets to just 174 00:09:51,796 --> 00:09:53,916 Speaker 2: rip through the bottom of the portal edge at any moment. 175 00:09:54,756 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 1: Wow. So in that moment, are you thinking, Okay, they 176 00:09:59,316 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: might have missed slightly the first with the first few shots, 177 00:10:02,876 --> 00:10:04,436 Speaker 1: but you know we're going to die. 178 00:10:04,716 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what we're worried about. There's no way 179 00:10:07,236 --> 00:10:09,796 Speaker 2: to run away. I mean, it's just complete. It's like 180 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:13,116 Speaker 2: somebody's shooting at you and you can't hide behind anything. 181 00:10:14,316 --> 00:10:17,156 Speaker 1: See, you're literally a fix to a vertical wall in 182 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 1: a tent, right, there's literally no escape route. 183 00:10:19,916 --> 00:10:22,556 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean moving out of the way. It 184 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:24,756 Speaker 2: would have been you know, a several hour process to 185 00:10:25,596 --> 00:10:28,156 Speaker 2: just get up and around the corner or something. 186 00:10:28,956 --> 00:10:31,796 Speaker 1: Okay. So then so you hear these gun shots. 187 00:10:31,956 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 2: What happens next through our telephoto camera lens, we see 188 00:10:36,516 --> 00:10:39,836 Speaker 2: them sort of waving at us to come down, and 189 00:10:39,916 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 2: we know that we have no other option. Basically, they've 190 00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 2: got these big guns. They've proved that they that they're 191 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:49,676 Speaker 2: good shots with these guns, and so we're like we 192 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:52,036 Speaker 2: have to go down. So we have a discussion and 193 00:10:52,116 --> 00:10:54,996 Speaker 2: we decide that John Dickey, who is the oldest member 194 00:10:55,036 --> 00:10:57,956 Speaker 2: of our expedition, will go down and try and talk 195 00:10:57,996 --> 00:11:00,276 Speaker 2: to them. We're just trying to be super optimistic at 196 00:11:00,316 --> 00:11:02,796 Speaker 2: this point. Maybe they just want information, we don't really know. 197 00:11:03,516 --> 00:11:07,516 Speaker 2: And so John starts descending down the wall. Takes them 198 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:11,676 Speaker 2: probably nearly an hour, and he gets down there, and 199 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:13,836 Speaker 2: we have these two way radios and he had taken 200 00:11:13,916 --> 00:11:16,516 Speaker 2: one of them. When he gets down there, he just 201 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:20,716 Speaker 2: sounds very serious. He radios back to us and he's like, 202 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 2: you guys are just going to have to come down. 203 00:11:23,156 --> 00:11:26,636 Speaker 2: So the other three of us just start descending down 204 00:11:26,636 --> 00:11:28,916 Speaker 2: the wall, and when we get to the ground, we're 205 00:11:28,916 --> 00:11:31,556 Speaker 2: confronted with a pretty scary scene. I would say. There's 206 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:37,836 Speaker 2: two heavily armed men that are wearing this combination of 207 00:11:38,596 --> 00:11:42,036 Speaker 2: like army fatigues, so they look pretty scary, but their 208 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:46,076 Speaker 2: demeanor is actually pretty chill. They wait for us. We 209 00:11:46,156 --> 00:11:48,996 Speaker 2: get to the ground and they're just kind of sitting around, 210 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:51,436 Speaker 2: not really saying that much, and they and then they 211 00:11:51,476 --> 00:11:53,596 Speaker 2: just kind of wave us on to follow them back 212 00:11:53,636 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 2: to base camp. 213 00:11:55,156 --> 00:11:57,236 Speaker 1: A conflict had broken out in the country between the 214 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 1: Kregeese army and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. Up on 215 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 1: the mountain, a small group of the militants had captured 216 00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,476 Speaker 1: a Keregee soldier, and when Tommy and the rest of 217 00:12:06,516 --> 00:12:08,916 Speaker 1: his climbing crew were forced down the mountain, they were 218 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 1: to get a closer look at the soldier. 219 00:12:11,316 --> 00:12:15,036 Speaker 2: He just looked very stern, you know, he looked kind 220 00:12:15,036 --> 00:12:17,516 Speaker 2: of scared and very stern, and he had blood all 221 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:20,036 Speaker 2: over his pants. And I think there was that one 222 00:12:20,076 --> 00:12:21,996 Speaker 2: moment in there where John looked over at us and 223 00:12:21,996 --> 00:12:25,196 Speaker 2: he's like, we're hostages. I think we're hostages, And so 224 00:12:25,756 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 2: that's kind of when it struck us. 225 00:12:27,916 --> 00:12:30,836 Speaker 1: The militants waste no time. They lead Tommy and Beth 226 00:12:30,876 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 1: and the other climbers into the mountain side at gunpoint, 227 00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:36,036 Speaker 1: and as they start to cross the river, a group 228 00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 1: of Kirky soldiers appear at the top of the hill 229 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:40,476 Speaker 1: and start shooting at them. 230 00:12:40,796 --> 00:12:44,116 Speaker 2: This battle breaks out essentially, and we hide in this bush, 231 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 2: and Beth and myself and this Kurky soldier end up 232 00:12:48,756 --> 00:12:51,756 Speaker 2: in this bush together. The next thing that happened is 233 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 2: the rebels told us one by one to run up 234 00:12:55,756 --> 00:13:00,876 Speaker 2: behind this boulder, and the Kirky soldier went first, and 235 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:02,996 Speaker 2: as soon as he got up behind the boulder, we 236 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:06,996 Speaker 2: heard these handgun shots which were different than the rifle shots, 237 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 2: and they had just shot him in the him in 238 00:13:09,516 --> 00:13:11,836 Speaker 2: the head right there, and then the rest of us 239 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:13,636 Speaker 2: had to go up and hide behind that boulder. As 240 00:13:13,676 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 2: this battle sort of erupted around us. It was a 241 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:19,316 Speaker 2: full on like war scene. We're hiding behind this boulder. 242 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:22,196 Speaker 2: The boulder was getting you know, bullets were ricocheting off 243 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:24,996 Speaker 2: the boulder. We were behind it, sitting on the dead 244 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:28,716 Speaker 2: body of this other Kurgey soldier, and they were shooting 245 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:32,996 Speaker 2: these these mortars across at us. I mean, we were 246 00:13:33,076 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 2: kind of certain that we were going to die at 247 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:34,876 Speaker 2: any moment. 248 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:41,276 Speaker 1: I'm just imagining the juxtaposition of going from these immensely 249 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:47,796 Speaker 1: peaceful climbs in this expansive valley to absolute life or 250 00:13:47,836 --> 00:13:50,596 Speaker 1: death insanity. Would do you remember feeling. 251 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 2: Definitely running on adrenaline, totally surreal. I feel like that 252 00:13:54,636 --> 00:13:58,476 Speaker 2: is not like the rest of life at all. And 253 00:13:58,556 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 2: I think it was fear that was more intense and 254 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:05,036 Speaker 2: far different than anything I had noticed, Like in some 255 00:14:05,116 --> 00:14:08,076 Speaker 2: ways I was used to dealing with fear because of 256 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,636 Speaker 2: my climbing. Life was just way different. 257 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:13,996 Speaker 1: Tommy, Beth and their crew managed to make it out 258 00:14:13,996 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 1: of this skirmish alive, but they're still being held captive 259 00:14:17,396 --> 00:14:20,956 Speaker 1: by two militant rebels. They can't communicate with their captors 260 00:14:20,996 --> 00:14:23,596 Speaker 1: because they don't speak the same language, but from what 261 00:14:23,676 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 1: they can glean, there's an older guy who seems to 262 00:14:26,196 --> 00:14:30,236 Speaker 1: be in charge, and then a teenager named Scherapov. During 263 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: the day, the militants lead them around in what ultimately 264 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 1: ends up being a big circle looking for hiding places. 265 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:38,836 Speaker 2: And we don't have any food. We had we had 266 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:40,916 Speaker 2: to abandon all of our food except I had managed 267 00:14:40,956 --> 00:14:44,156 Speaker 2: to shove like five or six energy bars into my pocket. 268 00:14:44,316 --> 00:14:47,156 Speaker 2: So each day we would in the evening, we would 269 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:50,116 Speaker 2: split one of those energy bars between the six of us, 270 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 2: and that's the only food we had, and we do 271 00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:55,196 Speaker 2: kind of feel like we're all in it together, like 272 00:14:55,236 --> 00:14:57,516 Speaker 2: we share our food with them. They didn't just take 273 00:14:57,556 --> 00:15:00,316 Speaker 2: all of our food, They shared it with us, those six, 274 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:04,396 Speaker 2: you know, energy bars that we had, and the demeanor 275 00:15:04,516 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 2: became pretty friendly a lot of the time. And then 276 00:15:08,356 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 2: during the day life we would hide in usually just 277 00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 2: absolutely miserable hiding spots, like you know, by rivers under boulders. 278 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 2: It was always super cold. You know, our teeth were 279 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:24,996 Speaker 2: chattering all day long, every day, to the point where 280 00:15:25,036 --> 00:15:27,996 Speaker 2: our jaws and our mouths got really sot. We'd be 281 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:31,636 Speaker 2: sitting there hiding for fourteen hours of daylight or whatever, 282 00:15:31,676 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 2: and it would feel like a week. 283 00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 1: Did you ever worry that you were going to die 284 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:38,996 Speaker 1: of hypothermia, so it's not just the potential of being killed, 285 00:15:38,996 --> 00:15:41,396 Speaker 1: but also you just might die from extreme conditions. 286 00:15:41,716 --> 00:15:44,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that was definitely a worry of ours. We 287 00:15:44,396 --> 00:15:47,276 Speaker 2: were probably on the verge most of the time, and 288 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 2: we're at a point where we can't really just sit 289 00:15:51,636 --> 00:15:55,076 Speaker 2: through these conditions anymore. But then, weirdly, at times, I 290 00:15:55,116 --> 00:15:57,636 Speaker 2: think this is sort of a proven thing that happens 291 00:15:57,836 --> 00:16:00,956 Speaker 2: when you go through this severe hunger, is you have 292 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:03,956 Speaker 2: these moments of like mental clarity, like you feel like 293 00:16:04,076 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 2: you are almost more alive than ever. As you're starving 294 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:09,716 Speaker 2: to death, your body is sort of starts to kick 295 00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:14,276 Speaker 2: into this like survival mode, and so you sort of 296 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:18,436 Speaker 2: alternate alternate between that and then other times just feeling 297 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:22,156 Speaker 2: really lethargic and really slow and you know, really hungry. 298 00:16:22,876 --> 00:16:25,156 Speaker 2: So We just traveled around like that for six nights, 299 00:16:25,196 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 2: getting progressively weaker, and then finally on that last night, 300 00:16:29,996 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 2: things are pretty desperate, and so we were left on 301 00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:38,116 Speaker 2: this night with just the young scared soldier Shapov and 302 00:16:38,236 --> 00:16:40,876 Speaker 2: told to climb up this incredibly steep mountain. It was, 303 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 2: you know, true rock climbing, like it was kind of 304 00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:45,796 Speaker 2: terrain that if you fell on it didn't seem like 305 00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:48,596 Speaker 2: you would stop. You would just continue falling until you 306 00:16:48,636 --> 00:16:50,716 Speaker 2: got you know, bouncing down the mountain until you got 307 00:16:50,756 --> 00:16:54,676 Speaker 2: to the bottom. And and shrif Pov was really scared, 308 00:16:55,316 --> 00:16:57,836 Speaker 2: we were actually having to lead the way because we 309 00:16:57,876 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 2: were climbers. We would you know, grab his hand and 310 00:17:01,436 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 2: pull him up over rock steps. We would point out 311 00:17:04,396 --> 00:17:07,436 Speaker 2: footholds for him to step on. We would sort of 312 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:09,796 Speaker 2: spot him in case he stumbled, could catch him so 313 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:13,316 Speaker 2: he didn't just fall down the mountain. And so in 314 00:17:13,356 --> 00:17:16,076 Speaker 2: all of our minds like if there was a time 315 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 2: to escape, this was it. 316 00:17:18,556 --> 00:17:20,596 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. I mean, it seems like the very 317 00:17:21,316 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 1: natural instinct to help others was kicking in for you. Right, 318 00:17:24,996 --> 00:17:28,356 Speaker 1: you're spotting this guy, you're leading the way, you're helping him. 319 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 1: Who were these competing feelings towards him and the situation 320 00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: leading to kind of bizarre behaviors in you. It's so fascinating, 321 00:17:37,356 --> 00:17:40,636 Speaker 1: right that you can build this kind of camaraderie with 322 00:17:40,716 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: a person who might ultimately lead to your death, if 323 00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 1: you have that kind of empathy towards their circumstance and 324 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:46,436 Speaker 1: their situation. 325 00:17:47,756 --> 00:17:50,596 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it felt different at different times. 326 00:17:50,636 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 2: Like at times I was like, we should outlast this, 327 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:55,116 Speaker 2: We should be good human beings as long as we can. 328 00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:57,396 Speaker 2: In a way, of these rebels, I didn't see them 329 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 2: as super evil people, especially Cherpov who were with Like 330 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 2: he was just a he was younger, or he was 331 00:18:02,556 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 2: probably about my age, or maybe even younger. I think 332 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 2: he was eighteen years old at the time. He was 333 00:18:06,836 --> 00:18:10,876 Speaker 2: a hired mercenary. He was obviously super frightened himself, you know. 334 00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:12,996 Speaker 2: He like, who's to say if I didn't grow up 335 00:18:12,996 --> 00:18:15,116 Speaker 2: in a circumstance, I wouldn't have been right there with him. 336 00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:17,836 Speaker 2: So I thought it was sort of morally wrong to 337 00:18:17,876 --> 00:18:20,436 Speaker 2: try and take these guys' lives. But I think on 338 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:23,556 Speaker 2: this last night, clouds started to roll in, I started 339 00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 2: to rain a tiny bit, and all of us were 340 00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 2: like if we don't escape this scene pretty soon, we 341 00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:31,316 Speaker 2: are going to succumb to hypothermia. Yeah, So as we 342 00:18:31,356 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 2: were getting to the top of the mountain, I knew 343 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:38,396 Speaker 2: that our opportunity to push him was going to be 344 00:18:38,476 --> 00:18:43,716 Speaker 2: gone soon. And Beth had been adamantly against killing somebody 345 00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:45,996 Speaker 2: this whole time, but it was getting pretty dire. So 346 00:18:46,676 --> 00:18:49,316 Speaker 2: I looked over her when we're at her, when we 347 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 2: were maybe fifty or one hundred feet below the top 348 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:52,916 Speaker 2: of this mountain, and I was like, do you think 349 00:18:52,956 --> 00:18:56,276 Speaker 2: I should And she didn't say anything, which to me 350 00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:58,396 Speaker 2: that meant that she thought she'd come around, like she 351 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 2: thought that this was probably the right thing to do. 352 00:19:01,276 --> 00:19:05,316 Speaker 2: And so when he saw the top of the mountain 353 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 2: kind of close, he got a little bit excited. He 354 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:10,756 Speaker 2: started to sort of rush up ahead of all of us. 355 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 2: He is in Sharapov and I then started to sort 356 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:22,356 Speaker 2: of sneak up behind him, and he was so focused 357 00:19:22,356 --> 00:19:24,476 Speaker 2: on like staying attached to the mountain, you know, like 358 00:19:24,476 --> 00:19:26,356 Speaker 2: grabbing the right hand holds and stuff, that he really 359 00:19:26,356 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 2: didn't even notice me. And I ran up behind him, 360 00:19:28,796 --> 00:19:31,636 Speaker 2: and I just grabbed his gun strap and just tugged 361 00:19:31,676 --> 00:19:34,156 Speaker 2: backwards on it and he started to fly off the 362 00:19:34,156 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 2: mountain side. He fell about twenty feet, hit this ledge 363 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 2: that was below us, bounced off of it like the 364 00:19:39,476 --> 00:19:44,516 Speaker 2: sloping ledge, and then out of sight, just in the blackness. 365 00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. With a slight change of plans. 366 00:19:52,636 --> 00:19:55,356 Speaker 1: I'm maya shunker, and this is a slight change of plans. 367 00:19:56,276 --> 00:19:58,956 Speaker 1: Tommy Caldwells made the bold decision to push one of 368 00:19:58,996 --> 00:20:02,636 Speaker 1: his captors off the cliff. Years later, a journalist working 369 00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:05,756 Speaker 1: on the story discovers that Scherapov did not actually die 370 00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:08,836 Speaker 1: from the fall, but at the time Tommy assumes he's 371 00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 1: killed Cherapov, and for Tommy, the reality of what he 372 00:20:12,476 --> 00:20:14,516 Speaker 1: just did comes crashing down on him. 373 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 2: It's just like this flood of emotion is going through me. 374 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:21,036 Speaker 2: I like can't believe what I've just done. I remember 375 00:20:21,076 --> 00:20:26,436 Speaker 2: like closing my eyes incredibly tight and like seeing like 376 00:20:26,516 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 2: weird starry visions. I mean, it was just like it's 377 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 2: almost hard to explain it. It was just like emotionally 378 00:20:34,116 --> 00:20:36,756 Speaker 2: overwhelming in a way that I've never experienced. You know. 379 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 2: Beth was really comforting me. I mean she like I 380 00:20:41,156 --> 00:20:42,756 Speaker 2: like I said, I was deeply in love with this woman, 381 00:20:42,756 --> 00:20:45,076 Speaker 2: and she was and I didn't know. She suddenly think 382 00:20:45,116 --> 00:20:46,996 Speaker 2: that I was like this evil person because we hadn't 383 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 2: really been able to talk it out what I was 384 00:20:48,716 --> 00:20:50,676 Speaker 2: about to do, so she was the one was like, 385 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:54,196 Speaker 2: you're You're my hero. You We're gonna be okay because 386 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 2: of you, and trying to say the right things to 387 00:20:56,396 --> 00:20:57,436 Speaker 2: help me in that moment. 388 00:20:58,476 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: The moment doesn't last long, though, with one of their 389 00:21:01,116 --> 00:21:03,316 Speaker 1: captors pushed off the mountain and the other one out 390 00:21:03,356 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: of sight, Tommy and his team know they need to 391 00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:07,876 Speaker 1: seize the moment and get out of there as quickly 392 00:21:07,876 --> 00:21:10,556 Speaker 1: as possible, so they run down the mountain and find 393 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 1: safety at a military outpost, and eventually they all make 394 00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:18,316 Speaker 1: it back to the US. Almost immediately, Tommy's dad notices 395 00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:19,116 Speaker 1: a change in him. 396 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:23,596 Speaker 2: I mean, I felt like for a time I sort 397 00:21:23,636 --> 00:21:27,836 Speaker 2: of receded into a ball. I didn't talk to anybody 398 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:32,316 Speaker 2: except for Beth about personal things, but Beth and a 399 00:21:32,316 --> 00:21:35,396 Speaker 2: few other close friends. I didn't talk to my parents 400 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 2: that much about it, So I think he probably had 401 00:21:37,276 --> 00:21:39,916 Speaker 2: that take more than most because he knew me a lot, 402 00:21:39,956 --> 00:21:44,076 Speaker 2: and then I just didn't want to discuss this with him. 403 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:47,796 Speaker 1: What aspect of the experience made you most uncomfortable talking 404 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:48,716 Speaker 1: about with your dad. 405 00:21:50,476 --> 00:21:52,996 Speaker 2: I think I was just I just didn't know how 406 00:21:53,076 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 2: to think about the experience. Like I didn't know for 407 00:21:57,956 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 2: a while whether whether I was kind of an evil 408 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:03,076 Speaker 2: person for having done this thing, or whether I was 409 00:22:03,156 --> 00:22:05,276 Speaker 2: kind of a hero for saving us. I was both, 410 00:22:05,396 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 2: but I'd also learned. I think very few people get 411 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:13,516 Speaker 2: to find out how they will react in super intense 412 00:22:13,556 --> 00:22:17,396 Speaker 2: experiences like that. Everybody sort of wonders, and I now 413 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,396 Speaker 2: knew that when when things are really bad, I was 414 00:22:20,436 --> 00:22:22,476 Speaker 2: able to kind of like rise to the occasion and 415 00:22:22,516 --> 00:22:26,476 Speaker 2: do something that was really hard for me and really 416 00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:29,276 Speaker 2: fight for survival in this way that I think I was. 417 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 2: I was a bit proud of at the time, but 418 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:34,876 Speaker 2: I didn't want to seem proud. I didn't want to 419 00:22:34,876 --> 00:22:36,716 Speaker 2: feel I didn't want to feel proud in a lot 420 00:22:36,716 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 2: of ways, but I think kind of deep down I 421 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 2: was a little bit proud, like I felt empowered. 422 00:22:42,276 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 1: Interesting. So, so did the adversity you faced in Kyrgyzstan 423 00:22:47,516 --> 00:22:51,316 Speaker 1: change your understanding of yourself or actually just reinforce what 424 00:22:51,356 --> 00:22:53,996 Speaker 1: you had believed all along about what you were capable of. 425 00:22:54,916 --> 00:22:58,436 Speaker 2: I think it it reinforced more than changed, but it 426 00:22:58,436 --> 00:23:02,196 Speaker 2: also revealed a lot. It opened up a ton of curiosity, 427 00:23:02,316 --> 00:23:05,356 Speaker 2: Like I wanted to learn more. I wanted to in 428 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:08,916 Speaker 2: some ways get back to that place of being in 429 00:23:08,956 --> 00:23:13,956 Speaker 2: the incredibly meditative like flow state that I felt like 430 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:17,196 Speaker 2: I had experienced it at times in Kyrgyzstan. I think 431 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 2: in some ways my climbing ever since then has been 432 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 2: an effort to almost get back there in a way 433 00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:28,676 Speaker 2: and learn more. Yeah, almost like an addiction potentially. I 434 00:23:28,676 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 2: think I saw Kyrgyzstan as this like fuel to put 435 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 2: me on this higher plane where I could like use 436 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 2: that adversity to fuel my life in a lot of 437 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:47,476 Speaker 2: ways and sort of my pursuit of my craft, which 438 00:23:48,436 --> 00:23:50,076 Speaker 2: continues to be climbing to this day. 439 00:23:51,396 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 1: Yeah. Man, you are such a climber at heart. Like 440 00:23:53,676 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 1: the fact that you're describing Kurgason as being a flow 441 00:23:57,316 --> 00:24:00,996 Speaker 1: state in which you had like, you know, deep mental acuity, 442 00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:05,316 Speaker 1: and you're that's as a lay person, right, that is 443 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 1: a truly astonishing way of interpreting those events. 444 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:12,356 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I didn't go there first. I probably went 445 00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 2: a lot of places that year. 446 00:24:13,996 --> 00:24:14,476 Speaker 1: Yeah. 447 00:24:14,556 --> 00:24:16,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the place that I ended up finding 448 00:24:17,636 --> 00:24:19,716 Speaker 2: to be the one that suited me. But if you 449 00:24:19,756 --> 00:24:21,956 Speaker 2: think about it, like you know, I can. I can 450 00:24:21,996 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 2: equate it to situations as a child where I was 451 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:26,596 Speaker 2: up on some big wall with my dad and you know, 452 00:24:26,676 --> 00:24:30,996 Speaker 2: surrounded by some incredible thunderstorm and things get really real, 453 00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:32,476 Speaker 2: and my dad would look at me in these kind 454 00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:34,356 Speaker 2: of moments with these wild eyes and be like, this 455 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:36,836 Speaker 2: is what brings us to life. So that was built 456 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 2: into me from a really young age. 457 00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:41,756 Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, yeah, I think my parents were like, why 458 00:24:41,756 --> 00:24:45,236 Speaker 1: don't we go inside now there's thunder? You would prefer 459 00:24:45,316 --> 00:24:50,356 Speaker 1: not to die? Okay? Anyway, anyway, can you describe more? 460 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: I think for a lot of listeners will be curious 461 00:24:52,956 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: what you mean by this flow state that you experienced 462 00:24:56,756 --> 00:24:59,076 Speaker 1: in Kyrgyzstan, Like, what what does it feel like? What 463 00:24:59,116 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 1: were you what were you trying to reach psychologically? When 464 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:04,316 Speaker 1: you came back and started climbing again. 465 00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:09,236 Speaker 2: To me, that flow stayed in its most pure form 466 00:25:09,396 --> 00:25:15,036 Speaker 2: is like this moment where it's almost like everything slows down, 467 00:25:15,556 --> 00:25:19,396 Speaker 2: You feel weightless, you feel like your vision is a cute, 468 00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:23,156 Speaker 2: you notice detail in this incredible way. It's like a 469 00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:30,036 Speaker 2: physiological change that is incredibly easy to notice when it happens. 470 00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:34,076 Speaker 2: You know, it's like in the moment where all odds 471 00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 2: are against you, suddenly it's like the clarity comes and 472 00:25:38,516 --> 00:25:42,036 Speaker 2: it's completely surreal and completely magical. I feel like I 473 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:44,476 Speaker 2: had experienced that in Kyrgyzstan, and so I was trying 474 00:25:44,476 --> 00:25:47,436 Speaker 2: to get back there in climbing. But I wasn't. I 475 00:25:47,476 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 2: wasn't finding that flow sted in that way. So I 476 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:51,436 Speaker 2: did start to shift some of my climbing to like 477 00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:55,476 Speaker 2: this mega endurance days where you're out, you know, sleep 478 00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 2: deprived for you know, fifty hours in a row, and 479 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:00,116 Speaker 2: a lot of times these climbs would take four or 480 00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 2: five days, and I started to do them in one day, 481 00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:04,116 Speaker 2: like twenty four hour pushes. 482 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:09,316 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm pausing only because it if I were an 483 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 1: alien descending on this planet, and I heard that there's 484 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: this guy named Tommy Caldwell who went through a harrowing 485 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 1: experience in Kyrgyzstan, who's now trying to replicate aspects of 486 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:24,156 Speaker 1: that trip on his own volition in normal life. I 487 00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 1: think the alien would battony. 488 00:26:27,036 --> 00:26:27,396 Speaker 2: That's all. 489 00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:31,916 Speaker 1: It's why I admire climber so much. It's the relentless 490 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:36,596 Speaker 1: focus and resolve. And again I flirted as a musician 491 00:26:36,716 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 1: with flow right in my childhood, and I in my 492 00:26:42,276 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 1: own way, I crave that too. There's something about engaging 493 00:26:46,276 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 1: with art, and I guess I see climbing as an 494 00:26:48,116 --> 00:26:50,356 Speaker 1: art form too, that can put you in a certain 495 00:26:50,396 --> 00:26:53,156 Speaker 1: mental state that's really hard to You can't you can't 496 00:26:53,196 --> 00:26:55,396 Speaker 1: recruit it in daily life at will. Right, it's not. 497 00:26:55,676 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 1: It's one of these elusive things that happens when all 498 00:26:58,836 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 1: the stars align right at least that's how it's been 499 00:27:01,316 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 1: in my own experience. 500 00:27:03,076 --> 00:27:04,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, now I can tell you have like you have 501 00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:07,556 Speaker 2: the craving and the thirst for it, and yeah, I 502 00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 2: felt like I need to pursue that lot in my 503 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:12,836 Speaker 2: life since then. But in some ways I never got 504 00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:15,116 Speaker 2: back to that place that I was in Kyrgyzstan, like 505 00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 2: that flow state that I experienced that really comes from 506 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 2: this you can really only access when when your life 507 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:25,436 Speaker 2: really is on the line. Even though I was pushing 508 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:28,396 Speaker 2: way harder than I was before, I wasn't. I wasn't 509 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:32,636 Speaker 2: ever getting back to that, to that place, to that 510 00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 2: incredible flow state. 511 00:27:34,796 --> 00:27:37,756 Speaker 1: Tommy spent the next year after his return from Kyrgyzstan 512 00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:41,476 Speaker 1: trying to access that high, that flow state in his clients. 513 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:45,076 Speaker 1: Whatever downtime he had, he spent with Beth in this 514 00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:48,116 Speaker 1: little fixer upper cabin they bought in the mountains of Colorado. 515 00:27:48,876 --> 00:27:50,916 Speaker 2: And one day I was working on the house. I 516 00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:52,596 Speaker 2: was trying to use the tools and not knowing how 517 00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:54,556 Speaker 2: to use them properly. I end up chopping off my 518 00:27:54,916 --> 00:27:58,756 Speaker 2: index finger on my left hand with a table saw. 519 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:02,356 Speaker 2: So this is kind of like worst case scenario. 520 00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:05,396 Speaker 1: Can you describe the moment where you realize that your 521 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: index finger is no longer on your hand. 522 00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:11,756 Speaker 2: I felt this numbness, and I looked down at my 523 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:15,156 Speaker 2: left hand and saw that the finger was completely severed, 524 00:28:15,196 --> 00:28:17,356 Speaker 2: like I didn't know where the other part of it was. 525 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:20,436 Speaker 2: So I think I immediately panicked. I yelled to Beth. 526 00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:22,156 Speaker 2: I was just like, oh, I just cut off my finger, 527 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:26,556 Speaker 2: and and she came over and we found it like 528 00:28:26,676 --> 00:28:29,476 Speaker 2: laying on the ground, ran into the house, put it 529 00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 2: on ice, and drove to the hospital. 530 00:28:32,116 --> 00:28:34,036 Speaker 1: What is going through your head on the drive to 531 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:35,116 Speaker 1: the hospital. 532 00:28:35,916 --> 00:28:38,476 Speaker 2: I mean I was, I was certainly panicking. I mean 533 00:28:38,676 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 2: all I could think about was climbing, Like I had 534 00:28:40,556 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 2: gotten to this place where I was I was a 535 00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:46,036 Speaker 2: professional climber. I was living kind of my ultimate life 536 00:28:46,036 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 2: I had, but all this curiosity about where I could 537 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:51,036 Speaker 2: take it. It was sort of my coping mechanism for 538 00:28:51,156 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 2: Krgyzstan in some ways, like this was the thing that 539 00:28:53,956 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 2: I could focus on that could both distract me and 540 00:28:56,916 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 2: empower me, and that was what was keeping me happy 541 00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:04,076 Speaker 2: and stable in life. And then suddenly maybe that is 542 00:29:04,156 --> 00:29:08,196 Speaker 2: gone too. So I was panicking. I mean, at first, 543 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:10,276 Speaker 2: we're just we're just holding on to hope. I'd heard 544 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:13,516 Speaker 2: stories about people chopping off fingers and then reattaching them 545 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:16,956 Speaker 2: and everything being just fine. You know, like finger reattachment 546 00:29:17,036 --> 00:29:20,636 Speaker 2: surgery is usually relatively successful thing, at least it was 547 00:29:20,716 --> 00:29:24,396 Speaker 2: in my mind. The doctor came into the room and 548 00:29:24,476 --> 00:29:26,956 Speaker 2: he you know, sat bethed me down and he's like, 549 00:29:27,196 --> 00:29:30,116 Speaker 2: we've done everything we can. Your finger is dead. We're 550 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:32,796 Speaker 2: going to do one final surgery and remove it. And 551 00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:36,156 Speaker 2: you know, I'm sorry. And he was a climber. Actually 552 00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:39,036 Speaker 2: our doctor ended up being a climber as well, and 553 00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:41,396 Speaker 2: he and so he along with that, he said that 554 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:44,236 Speaker 2: he told us that he's like, you should start thinking 555 00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:45,876 Speaker 2: about what else you want to do in life, because 556 00:29:45,876 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 2: you're you're not going to be able to like be 557 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:49,436 Speaker 2: a professional climber anymore. 558 00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:53,036 Speaker 1: And when you first heard that, do you agree with him? 559 00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:54,516 Speaker 1: I mean, did you believe that that was going to 560 00:29:54,556 --> 00:29:55,036 Speaker 1: be the case? 561 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I think I heard that and I 562 00:29:57,156 --> 00:30:01,716 Speaker 2: was just like incredibly sad and trying to absorb that. 563 00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:04,036 Speaker 2: I mean, once again, I feel like this has been 564 00:30:04,036 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 2: a theme in my life. I have these things that 565 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 2: are said or things that happened to me that are 566 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:10,276 Speaker 2: almost like too grand for me to comprehend in the moment, 567 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:12,276 Speaker 2: and it takes a long time to really figure it out. 568 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:16,196 Speaker 2: But he left the room and then Beth looked over 569 00:30:16,236 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 2: at me and she's like, fuck that guy, he has 570 00:30:18,276 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 2: an idea, what well you're capable of it? That was 571 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:22,436 Speaker 2: like the perfect thing to say. You know, I think 572 00:30:22,476 --> 00:30:24,916 Speaker 2: I came out of that hospital with like kind of 573 00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 2: this conviction that was driven partially from like this idea 574 00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:30,716 Speaker 2: that I might be able to overca him, but also 575 00:30:30,836 --> 00:30:32,676 Speaker 2: driven a lot by the fear that I've that I 576 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 2: just lost this thing that was incredibly important to me, 577 00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:37,156 Speaker 2: and I wanted to do everything I could, like I 578 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:39,156 Speaker 2: might as well do everything I can at that point 579 00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 2: to try and prove him wrong. 580 00:30:41,796 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 1: Do you think you're experiencing Kyrgyzstan increased your resolve to 581 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:47,356 Speaker 1: give climbing another go, Like do you think you would 582 00:30:47,396 --> 00:30:49,916 Speaker 1: have actually tried if that experience hadn't happened and you 583 00:30:49,956 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 1: hadn't seen your limits? 584 00:30:53,396 --> 00:30:55,636 Speaker 2: I think what it did for me is that it 585 00:30:55,876 --> 00:31:00,236 Speaker 2: made me not fear failure in a weird way, like 586 00:31:00,796 --> 00:31:03,716 Speaker 2: I'd had to confront the worst things that I can 587 00:31:03,756 --> 00:31:06,276 Speaker 2: imagine in my life in a lot of ways, and 588 00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 2: in some ways it like wasn't so bad, you know, 589 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,276 Speaker 2: I mean it was, it was really bad in some ways, 590 00:31:10,636 --> 00:31:12,316 Speaker 2: but in other ways, I'm like, I lived through it. 591 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:16,956 Speaker 2: I can find strength through this. And that drive, that 592 00:31:17,076 --> 00:31:20,316 Speaker 2: drive that you can feel only in those moments is 593 00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:24,036 Speaker 2: is like this moment that you have to seize, you know. 594 00:31:24,076 --> 00:31:26,596 Speaker 2: It's like that only lasts for so long, and so 595 00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 2: you have to capture it, absorb it and let it, 596 00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:31,916 Speaker 2: let it like push you forward. 597 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, A big change can do that. Wow, what 598 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 1: were those early first few climbing days, Like, so. 599 00:31:40,596 --> 00:31:42,636 Speaker 2: I went straight to the climbing gym, I think from 600 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:46,076 Speaker 2: the hospital, Like I don't only think we went home inane. 601 00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:50,196 Speaker 1: I love that though you're so passionate about it, you 602 00:31:50,196 --> 00:31:51,516 Speaker 1: couldn't wait to get back on. 603 00:31:51,996 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I've been laying in a hospital bed 604 00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:56,876 Speaker 2: for two weeks, so I was pretty excited to move. 605 00:31:56,956 --> 00:31:58,916 Speaker 2: And then the doctor told me that since the finger 606 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:00,916 Speaker 2: was gone, I couldn't really do any more harm, and 607 00:32:00,956 --> 00:32:03,676 Speaker 2: so I was really curious to see how my you know, 608 00:32:03,836 --> 00:32:08,196 Speaker 2: newly remodeled hand was gonna work. And we went straight 609 00:32:08,236 --> 00:32:10,556 Speaker 2: to the gym and it was. It was really hard 610 00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:12,796 Speaker 2: at first, and I was like, Okay, this is a 611 00:32:12,796 --> 00:32:16,116 Speaker 2: starting point. I can take this and improve on it. 612 00:32:16,716 --> 00:32:20,236 Speaker 2: And then, you know, I went back to the climbing 613 00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:23,436 Speaker 2: gym at first, like basically every day, and each day 614 00:32:23,436 --> 00:32:25,196 Speaker 2: I would feel a little bit stronger and a little 615 00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 2: bit stronger, and before I knew it, I was sort 616 00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:30,076 Speaker 2: of exceeding my own expectations. And that started this pretty 617 00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:33,076 Speaker 2: incredible flywheel where I was like, Wow, this is actually working. 618 00:32:33,116 --> 00:32:36,116 Speaker 2: My strength is coming back, And within a couple of months, 619 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:39,356 Speaker 2: I actually was back at the level of climbing that 620 00:32:39,436 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 2: I had been before I chopped off my finger. Like 621 00:32:41,476 --> 00:32:44,276 Speaker 2: I went back to other climbs that I had had 622 00:32:44,316 --> 00:32:46,876 Speaker 2: as climbing project, and I was able to do them again, 623 00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:49,076 Speaker 2: and I was like, Wow, this is working. I can't 624 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:52,316 Speaker 2: believe I'm overcoming this. This is so exciting. And then I 625 00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 2: didn't stop there. I just kept on getting better and better, 626 00:32:56,316 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 2: and you know, in some ways it was like a 627 00:32:58,916 --> 00:33:01,196 Speaker 2: super magical time for me. 628 00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:05,156 Speaker 1: There's no manual for how to climb with nine fingers, 629 00:33:05,196 --> 00:33:11,636 Speaker 1: so you're also having to relearn key form elements of climbing. Right, 630 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:14,116 Speaker 1: how does that happen? Like do you have to fully 631 00:33:14,116 --> 00:33:17,036 Speaker 1: adjust your your strategy like the way that you climb 632 00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:17,716 Speaker 1: a wall? 633 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:22,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's experimental. Climbing is always experimental, like 634 00:33:22,756 --> 00:33:25,676 Speaker 2: you're always playing with how to do moves differently, And 635 00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:28,796 Speaker 2: so I was just doing that but without a finger 636 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:31,916 Speaker 2: you know, I sort of cherished that experimenting. Like my 637 00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:35,516 Speaker 2: dad actually welded me up this specific finger strength like 638 00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:38,636 Speaker 2: weightlifting machine just for your fingers though, and so I 639 00:33:38,636 --> 00:33:41,036 Speaker 2: started using that a bunch and I got more and 640 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,116 Speaker 2: more scientific about building finger strength. 641 00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:48,476 Speaker 1: Okay, so you decide to climb one of the most 642 00:33:48,476 --> 00:33:52,516 Speaker 1: impossible rock faces I think in the world, is that right? 643 00:33:52,596 --> 00:33:56,196 Speaker 1: I mean, the don Wall. Most people deemed it impossible. 644 00:33:57,236 --> 00:33:59,556 Speaker 1: And I want to know what was your motivation for that? 645 00:33:59,596 --> 00:34:00,956 Speaker 1: What were you hoping to achieve? 646 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:04,276 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, so this was after my you know, 647 00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,396 Speaker 2: after I came back from chopping off my finger. You know, 648 00:34:07,436 --> 00:34:09,436 Speaker 2: that was sort of when I kept just doing and 649 00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:12,436 Speaker 2: harder roots, and I became the person that knew more 650 00:34:12,436 --> 00:34:15,916 Speaker 2: about big wall free climbing on El Capitan than you know. 651 00:34:15,956 --> 00:34:17,876 Speaker 2: I'd spent more time up there. I'd done more roots 652 00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:23,476 Speaker 2: than anybody. The down wall it is by far the 653 00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:27,236 Speaker 2: hardest big wall free climb in the world to anybody 654 00:34:27,316 --> 00:34:29,516 Speaker 2: except for me at the time, just look like a 655 00:34:29,516 --> 00:34:31,116 Speaker 2: pane of glass. Like you look up at the wall 656 00:34:31,156 --> 00:34:32,956 Speaker 2: and you're like, there's nothing to hold on to. There's 657 00:34:32,956 --> 00:34:35,756 Speaker 2: no way you could ever climb this thing. Like I said, 658 00:34:35,796 --> 00:34:37,076 Speaker 2: I had spent so much time up there that I 659 00:34:37,156 --> 00:34:40,476 Speaker 2: knew that sometimes these little edges formed on these faces 660 00:34:40,516 --> 00:34:43,396 Speaker 2: that look totally blank from below. But this is just 661 00:34:43,596 --> 00:34:45,716 Speaker 2: it was such a big scale that piecing it together 662 00:34:45,916 --> 00:34:50,756 Speaker 2: was this incredible puzzle, which ended up taking me a 663 00:34:50,876 --> 00:34:53,316 Speaker 2: year just to figure out the root, and then another 664 00:34:53,516 --> 00:34:57,356 Speaker 2: like seven years to build the strength and everything to 665 00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:02,036 Speaker 2: pull it together. I guess I saw pushing that venue 666 00:35:02,076 --> 00:35:03,796 Speaker 2: to be the one place in the world where I 667 00:35:03,836 --> 00:35:06,716 Speaker 2: could really explore something that nobody else. 668 00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:11,276 Speaker 1: Had At any point, did you expl aerience the intensity 669 00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:14,556 Speaker 1: of the Kyrgyzstan flow state when you were climbing the 670 00:35:14,596 --> 00:35:15,276 Speaker 1: down wall. 671 00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 2: I feel like I did actually on the final on 672 00:35:17,916 --> 00:35:22,356 Speaker 2: the final go, like when we successfully climbed to the thing. 673 00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:24,236 Speaker 2: So me and my partner Kevin Jorgan said, you know, 674 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:28,276 Speaker 2: we spent seven years. We would fix ropes to the wall, 675 00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:30,036 Speaker 2: and we would descend up and down the ropes, and 676 00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:32,316 Speaker 2: we would try all the different sections and we would 677 00:35:32,396 --> 00:35:35,196 Speaker 2: learn it all. And then when we finally went up 678 00:35:35,596 --> 00:35:38,316 Speaker 2: and successfully climbed the route, I think when I climbed 679 00:35:38,356 --> 00:35:41,956 Speaker 2: those pitches, it was this moment of incredible flow, like sudden. 680 00:35:41,956 --> 00:35:46,516 Speaker 2: There was so much pressure and anxiety and excitement wrapped 681 00:35:46,596 --> 00:35:50,556 Speaker 2: up in the seven years of preparing for this that 682 00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:56,156 Speaker 2: when it happened it felt magical, like that clarity emerged. 683 00:35:56,276 --> 00:36:00,076 Speaker 2: I felt weightless. There was this incredible flow. It was yeah, 684 00:36:00,196 --> 00:36:00,876 Speaker 2: very magical. 685 00:36:24,476 --> 00:36:26,996 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to 686 00:36:26,996 --> 00:36:30,316 Speaker 1: hear more about Tommy and Beth's experience in Kyrgyzstan. In 687 00:36:30,356 --> 00:36:33,196 Speaker 1: the aftermath, they both wrote books that will link to 688 00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:35,596 Speaker 1: you in the show notes. We'll be back in a 689 00:36:35,636 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 1: week with a new episode of A slight Change of Plans. 690 00:36:38,796 --> 00:36:50,876 Speaker 1: See you then, A Slight Change of Plans is created 691 00:36:50,916 --> 00:36:54,476 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to 692 00:36:54,516 --> 00:36:59,276 Speaker 1: everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board, associate 693 00:36:59,316 --> 00:37:03,836 Speaker 1: producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mea Lavelle 694 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:08,076 Speaker 1: and Justin Lange, senior editor Jen Guera, and sound design 695 00:37:08,156 --> 00:37:12,596 Speaker 1: and mixed engineers Ben Holliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also 696 00:37:12,756 --> 00:37:15,396 Speaker 1: to Luis Gara who wrote our theme song, and Ginger 697 00:37:15,396 --> 00:37:19,676 Speaker 1: Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, 698 00:37:20,436 --> 00:37:23,956 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 699 00:37:24,116 --> 00:37:26,676 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 700 00:37:26,716 --> 00:37:28,076 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker.