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Speaker 1: Once upon a time, there was a country within a country.

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Speaker 1: If you visited Panama City in the nineteen sixties, you'd

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Speaker 1: find a bustling Latin American community, downtown streets packed with

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Speaker 1: department stores, fruit vendors hawking and banadas and shaved ice,

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Speaker 1: advertisements plastered on billboards and telephone polls, tourist bars playing

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Speaker 1: salsa music late into the night. In other words, Panama

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Speaker 1: City in the nineteen sixties was a lively, messy, slightly

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Speaker 1: chaotic place. In western Panama City was a street called

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Speaker 1: Fourth of July Avenue. It was the first sign you

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Speaker 1: were entering a different part of Panama. Realistically, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: part of Panama at all. Crossing Fourth of July Avenue,

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Speaker 1: the noise and chaos of Panama City faded into the background.

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Speaker 1: On the other side of the street was something completely different,

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Speaker 1: a lush, suburban paradise, handsome single family homes and apartment buildings,

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Speaker 1: manicured lawns, and pristine streets. It looked like a mid

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Speaker 1: century American town had been dropped into the Panamanian jungle,

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Speaker 1: because that's exactly what it was. When the United States

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Speaker 1: struck a deal with Panama to build the Panama Canal

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Speaker 1: in nineteen oh three. It also created something called the

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Speaker 1: Canal Zone. To build and operate the canal, the United

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Speaker 1: States needed a place for the Canal Company workers to live.

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Speaker 1: That was the Canal Zone, a ten mile wide strip

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Speaker 1: of land running the full length of the Panama Canal.

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Speaker 1: For the next seventy five years, the Canal Zone was

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Speaker 1: a slice of America smack in the middle of Panama,

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Speaker 1: a country with a country. By the early nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 1: there were thirty six thousand Americans living in the Canal Zone,

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Speaker 1: both civilians and military personnel. Life in the Canal Zone

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Speaker 1: looked a lot like life in any nineteen sixties American town.

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Speaker 1: The teenage kids of the canal workers attended Balboa High School.

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Speaker 1: They had Friday night football games, went to sacops, and

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Speaker 1: watched midnight movies at the local theater. But not to

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Speaker 1: everyone was happy with this country in a country arrangement.

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Speaker 1: From the very beginning, many Panamanians protested the Canal Zone's existence.

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Speaker 1: They thought that giving the Americans control of the Panamanian

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Speaker 1: territory was an affront to Panamanian sovereignty. Panamanians were restricted

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Speaker 1: from entering the Canal Zone unless they worked for the

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Speaker 1: canal company or were hired as maids or nan for

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Speaker 1: the American families. The canal Zone had its own police force,

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Speaker 1: armed American and quick to hassle anyone who didn't look

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Speaker 1: like they belonged. By nineteen sixty four, Panamanian resentment of

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Speaker 1: the canal Zone was at an all time high. Over

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Speaker 1: the world, colonialism was being dismantled, but here in the

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Speaker 1: middle of Panama was a de facto American colony. What

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Speaker 1: would it take to get the Americans to leave and

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Speaker 1: for Panama to finally be its own country, in charge

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Speaker 1: of its own canal. The answer, it turned out, was

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Speaker 1: a bunch of teenagers. Welcome to very special episodes and

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Speaker 1: iHeart original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz, and this

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Speaker 1: is how a Panama Canal high school brawl changed history.

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Speaker 2: We are so back.

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Speaker 3: She's Danish Schwartz, He's Aaron Burnett, I'm Jason English. Josh

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Speaker 3: Fisher is on the other side of the glass.

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Speaker 4: Here.

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Speaker 3: We're back for another season of very special episodes. Welcome everybody,

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Speaker 3: glad to be back.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be back. I felt like I

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Speaker 1: went up on that I was that's my excitement coming out.

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Speaker 5: I felt it.

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Speaker 3: Well, the bar is said, Hi, this season, I'm pleased

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Speaker 3: to report very special episodes is now a two time

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Speaker 3: winner in the Signal Award Podcast category Best Commute Podcast.

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Speaker 3: Heck yeah, so yeah, it's a lot of pressure.

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Speaker 1: That's also kind of the best time to listen to

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Speaker 1: a podcast. I don't want to brag, but like commute

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Speaker 1: podcast is sort of a real category.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that is the window. I mean, you have undivided

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Speaker 5: attention and the people who are sitting there in traffic

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Speaker 5: or on a subway waiting for like any good distraction

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Speaker 5: in there, we are. You know, it's like the best.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: If you've been returned to office recently and not thrilled

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Speaker 3: about it, I feel for you. But at least you

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Speaker 3: can go back and listen to the archives here. I

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Speaker 3: know you guys don't do this for the awards.

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Speaker 6: I do.

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Speaker 3: So this has meant a lot to me.

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Speaker 5: I'm right there with you. I was very stoking. We

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Speaker 5: got back to back too, not just like we won,

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Speaker 5: but we're holding it down.

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Speaker 3: Dynasty. Well, we've got a great whole season planned. We'll

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Speaker 3: be here every Wednesday through the rest of the year.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back in January. We've got some Olympics episodes planned,

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Speaker 3: maybe a Super Bowl episode, maybe something bruin in San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: So thank you for coming back, and let's get right

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. In addition to being a country, Panama

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Speaker 1: is an isthmus, one of those words you learned in

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Speaker 1: junior high and immediately forgot. If you look at a

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Speaker 1: map of North and South America, Panama is the narrow

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Speaker 1: strip of land connecting the two continents. On the northern

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Speaker 1: coast of Panama is the Atlantic Ocean. On the southern

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Speaker 1: coast is the Pacific Ocean. At Panama's narrowest point, the

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Speaker 1: distance between the two oceans is just thirty miles, a

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Speaker 1: geographic anomaly that wasn't lost on the first Spanish explorers

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Speaker 1: to land on its shores.

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Speaker 7: Panama has been connecting the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans since

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Speaker 7: the sixteenth century because since the Spanish Empire, goods had

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Speaker 7: to travel from Europe to South America, goods and people.

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Speaker 7: So Panama was a route. And that's why Panama. We

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Speaker 7: have to think about Panama as a five hundred years

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Speaker 7: old route that connected the oceans.

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Speaker 1: That's Marisa Lasso, a Panamanian Historian Marisa says that the

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Speaker 1: Isthmus of Panama has always been a prized shortcut. For centuries,

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Speaker 1: people and goods traveled across that narrow passage using a

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Speaker 1: combination of rivers and mule trails. The Panama Railroad was

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Speaker 1: built in the eighteen fifties to transport eager prospectors on

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Speaker 1: their way to the California gold Rush, but the dream

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Speaker 1: was always to connect the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans directly

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Speaker 1: via a giant canal. The United States wasn't the first

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Speaker 1: country to attempt it. The French gave the Panama Canal

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Speaker 1: a shot in the eighteen eighties. It was a fantastic failure.

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Speaker 1: More than twenty two thousand workers died during construction, mostly

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Speaker 1: from tropical diseases like malaria and yellow fever. In eight

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Speaker 1: years of digging, they only managed to carve out eleven

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Speaker 1: miles of canal. Teddy Roosevelt wasn't scared off by the

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Speaker 1: French fiasco. He really wanted the United States to build

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Speaker 1: and own the Panama Canal. Owning the canal would give

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Speaker 1: America economic control of a vital new shipping lane, plus

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Speaker 1: a strategic stronghold for the US military in Latin America.

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Speaker 1: The story of how the US won the right to

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Speaker 1: build the Panama Canal is a saga of its own.

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Speaker 1: The short version is that Panama wasn't an independent country.

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Speaker 1: For most of nineteen oh three. It was still part

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Speaker 1: of Colombia, and Colombia had just emerged from a bloody

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Speaker 1: civil war in which most Panamanians were on the losing side.

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Speaker 1: Remember Teddy Roosevelt's famous adage, speak softly and carry a

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Speaker 1: big stick. This is a perfect example. In nineteen oh three,

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Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt softly approached the Colombian Congress with an offer

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Speaker 1: to complete the canal. When Colombia rejected that offer, Roosevelt

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Speaker 1: switched to his proverbial big stick. The Panamanians picked up

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Speaker 1: that if they revolted against Colombia, America would help make

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Speaker 1: sure the revolt was a success. From the American side,

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Speaker 1: knew Panama Canal negotiations would be able to take place

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Speaker 1: with an independent country.

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Speaker 2: It was the end of a bloody, bloody civil war

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Speaker 2: that left many casualties in Panama, and in that moment

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Speaker 2: of powerlessness, the construction of a Panama Canal was seen

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Speaker 2: as a great hope and aspiration.

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Speaker 1: On November third, nineteen o three, Panama declared its independence.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen days later, the new nation signed the hey Buonoveria Treaty,

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Speaker 1: granting the United States full control of the canal zone.

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Speaker 1: In retrospect, the treaty was a bad deal for Panama.

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Speaker 8: This treaty was even worse than the one that the

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Speaker 8: Columbia and Congress rejected.

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Speaker 2: This treaty gave to.

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Speaker 8: The US control of the Panama Canal zone five miles

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Speaker 8: on each side, as if it were sovereign in eternity.

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Speaker 1: So what happened to the tens of thousands of Panamanians

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Speaker 1: already living there?

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Speaker 7: What are the recurrent ideas about the canal zone and

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Speaker 7: the canal Is that the US built the canal on

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Speaker 7: the jungle.

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Speaker 9: No.

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Speaker 8: No, it built the canal over a densely populated area

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Speaker 8: filled with towns, people, and fields.

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Speaker 10: According to my calculation, there were around forty thousand people

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Speaker 10: expel and all the historic counts were dismantled to replace

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Speaker 10: them with brand new towns where only canal employees will leave.

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Speaker 1: Marisa wrote about this massive displacement of Panamanians in her

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Speaker 1: book Erased the Untold Story of the Panama Canal. The

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Speaker 1: Panama Canal is widely recognized as one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: engineering achievements of the twentieth century, and deservedly so. When

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Speaker 1: the gargantuan project was finished in nineteen fourteen, ships from

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Speaker 1: both oceans could cross the fifty one mile route through

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Speaker 1: a series of gravity fed locks filled by two massive

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Speaker 1: man made lakes. Operation of the canal was eventually handled

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Speaker 1: by the Panama Canal Company. The Canal Company wasn't a

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Speaker 1: traditional company in the sense that it wasn't a private business.

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Speaker 1: It was an extension of the US government. For example,

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Speaker 1: the president of the Canal Company was also the governor

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Speaker 1: of the Canal Zone. Kind of weird, right, But that's

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Speaker 1: because everyone who lived in the canal Zone worked in

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Speaker 1: some capacity for the Canal Company or the US military. Basically,

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Speaker 1: the Canal Zone was a government run company town inside

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Speaker 1: another country, perhaps the only one of its kind in

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Speaker 1: the world. The Canal Company provided everything for its workers,

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Speaker 1: comfortable housing for families, free high quality education for the kids,

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Speaker 1: and American style groceries at the company commissary. In short,

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Speaker 1: life in the Canal Zone was good.

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Speaker 9: The canal Zone was a tropical paradise for the Americans

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Speaker 9: that used to live there during the twentieth century. Most

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Speaker 9: of them worked the civil part, worked for the canal

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Speaker 9: and all the businesses that surrounded it, like maintenance of

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Speaker 9: the canal zone, which was a beautiful area. I mean,

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Speaker 9: full of trees, very organized, very structured, very orderly. You

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Speaker 9: would find a speck of garbage in the zone, and

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Speaker 9: everything was taken care for you by the US government.

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Speaker 9: You also got a very nice salary. You got paid

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Speaker 9: something called the tropical differential for the sacrifice of living

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Speaker 9: in the tropics.

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Speaker 1: That's Wendy Tribaldos, a Panamanian historian and writer. Wendy's written

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Speaker 1: a great book about the history of the tensions between

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Speaker 1: the American residents of the Canal Zone and the rest

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Speaker 1: of Panama. Her description of the canal Zone as a

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Speaker 1: tropical paradise is echoed by the Americans who lived there

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and sixties, and.

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Speaker 4: It was a glorious place to grow up in. I

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Speaker 4: felt free.

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Speaker 11: We could go into the jungles and I would.

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Speaker 4: Travel all over the area. I thought nothing of it.

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Speaker 4: I loved fish, I loved hiking, loved swimming, and all

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Speaker 4: these activities we could do outdoors.

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Speaker 1: That's Jim Jenkins. His family moved to the Canal Zone

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties when he was two years old.

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Speaker 1: Jim's dad was in the Navy and his mom was

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Speaker 1: a budget analyst for the canal company. Jim says that

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Speaker 1: life in the Canal Zone was similar in many ways

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Speaker 1: to small town life in the States. His high school,

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Speaker 1: for example, Balboa High, sounds like it could have been

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Speaker 1: flown in brick by brick from Iowa.

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Speaker 6: We'd have our sock cops, we have our sporting events

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Speaker 6: during the sock cops with hap sodas, and I'd helped

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Speaker 6: sell the sodas for the student union. During the football games,

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Speaker 6: we'd be out.

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Speaker 11: There cheering you.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't much of an athlete, but I sure did

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Speaker 4: enjoy going.

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Speaker 1: The fact that a high school in Panama fielded an

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Speaker 1: American football team should be a sign of just how

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Speaker 1: American this place was.

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Speaker 12: It definitely felt like I was an American because you

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Speaker 12: spoke English, we'd use American customs, and you know, like

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Speaker 12: high school, we played football. We didn't play soccer. You

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Speaker 12: think when not soccer, you're in Panama. No one else

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Speaker 12: has football. Two high schools, one in the Avanta side

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Speaker 12: one of the Pacific side. Both played football, but no soccer.

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Speaker 1: That's Joe Bremmer, president of the Balboa High School class

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Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty four and a classmate of Jim Jenkins.

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Speaker 1: Joe's mother was Panamanian and he had family in Panama City,

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Speaker 1: which gave Joe a unique perspective on life in the

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Speaker 1: Canal Zone.

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Speaker 12: Absolutely a different country. Yeah, I mean, we had our

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Speaker 12: own police force, we had our own traffic laws, some

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Speaker 12: speed limits, etc. It's definitely a different country. When my

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Speaker 12: relatives came to visit us in the Coal Zone, they

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Speaker 12: were stopped there and they had to give the address

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Speaker 12: and the person they were visiting. And sometimes they recall

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Speaker 12: us and say you expect this so and so, and

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Speaker 12: we'd say, sunder Man.

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Speaker 1: Getting stopped by the Canal Zone police was a regular

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Speaker 1: occurrence for Panamanians, especially young people. Rimsky Sukra was one

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Speaker 1: of those young Panamanians. Rumsky attended high school at the

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Speaker 1: prestigious Institute on Nacional or National Institute, located right on

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Speaker 1: the border with the Canal.

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Speaker 13: Zone crossing the street. It was like entering a completely

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Speaker 13: different territory. They had a surveillance system where every Zonian

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Speaker 13: was an informant, so if you dropped even the smallest

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Speaker 13: piece of paper somewhere, it'd be reported. So there was

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Speaker 13: a lot of resentment. We felt like even approaching the

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Speaker 13: canal zone or having any relationship with the canal zone

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Speaker 13: was almost like bullying. It's like they were saying, you're

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Speaker 13: worthless here if you don't have special permission.

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Speaker 1: The resentment that Rimsky felt wasn't just about him and

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Speaker 1: his friends getting hassled by the canal zone police. It

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Speaker 1: was a resentment shared by most Panamanians. Resentment over being

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Speaker 1: treated like a foreigner in your own country, resentment over

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Speaker 1: America's paternalistic attitude toward Panama, and resentment over the US

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Speaker 1: government's refusal to renegotiate the bad treaty that created the

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Speaker 1: canal zone in the first place.

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Speaker 9: It was very complex relationship between the paname and the

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Speaker 9: US because we understand when they're stood the privilege of

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Speaker 9: having the canal within our territory, but we also felt

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Speaker 9: that we did not get what we deserved, and in

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Speaker 9: terms of sovereignty, it was a big issue for US.

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Speaker 1: Sovereignty means self rule. As long as the canal zone existed,

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Speaker 1: Panama was not a sovereign nation. For Rimsky and his friends,

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Speaker 1: sovereignty was the number one issue. It was a constant

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Speaker 1: topic of debate in class at the Instituto Nacional.

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Speaker 10: World Person.

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Speaker 13: Since nineteen oh three. When that agreement was signed, the

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Speaker 13: most important Panamanian figures and the people immediately opposed it

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Speaker 13: and we called it the ignominious Agreement.

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Speaker 1: When would Panama truly achieve independence? Only when the Americans

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Speaker 1: finally left the Canal Zone. But for Americans like Jim

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Speaker 1: and Joe, the canal zone was their home too. Some

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Speaker 1: of their classmates were third generation Zonians, that's the name

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Speaker 1: for Americans born and raised in the Canal Zone. As

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Speaker 1: Whndy Tarbaldos explains, Zonians were very proud of their place

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Speaker 1: in Panama's history.

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Speaker 9: They were very proud to be American and also very

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Speaker 9: proud that the United States built a canal. You must

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Speaker 9: understand that it was a century's long dream and it

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Speaker 9: was only accomplished by the US. So their grandfathers and

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Speaker 9: their fathers were the ones involved in that construction, and

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Speaker 9: they were very aware of that fact. But they were

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Speaker 9: also Sonians. They were also different Americans. They were overseas Americans,

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Speaker 9: sort of those Americans that lived in US bases throughout

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Speaker 9: the world, but they lived in one particular place, and

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Speaker 9: it was their home, and it was a very important

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Speaker 9: place for them.

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Speaker 1: To the Zonians, the Canal Zone was a symbol of

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Speaker 1: American ingenuity, a slice of idyllic and orderly American life

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Speaker 1: carved out of the Panamanian jungle. To Panamanians, the Canal

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Speaker 1: Zone was a colonial outpost, a privileged enclave where they

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Speaker 1: weren't welcome in Panama. Frustrations with the Canal Zone had

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Speaker 1: been simmering for decades. But what would it take to

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Speaker 1: change the status quo? Maybe a communist revolution or a

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Speaker 1: military coup, not exactly. The future of Panamanian independence would

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Speaker 1: be determined by a fight over a flag. January two,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, was a Thursday. It was the first

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Speaker 1: day of classes after Christmas break for the mostly American

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Speaker 1: students of Balboa High School in the Canal Zone. There

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Speaker 1: was the usual excitement of seeing friends after a long

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Speaker 1: vacation and the start of a new semester. But something

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Speaker 1: was different, something was missing. Actually, the large flagpole in

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Speaker 1: front of the school stood empty. Usually it flew the

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Speaker 1: American flag like all other public buildings in the canal Zone,

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Speaker 1: but not that morning. The flag was gone. Over Christmas break,

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Speaker 1: the governor of the Canal Zone found himself in a

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Speaker 1: no win situation. In order had come down from the

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Speaker 1: President of the United States to fly both the Panamanian

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Speaker 1: and American flags at all Canal Zone public buildings. It

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Speaker 1: was meant as a peace gesture to the Panamanian people,

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Speaker 1: who were increasingly frustrated with the US presence in Panama.

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Speaker 1: Flying both flags was supposed to be a symbol of

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Speaker 1: the enduring partnership between America and Panama that created the

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Speaker 1: Panama Canal. But the Americans living in the Canal Zone

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Speaker 1: weren't having it. They picketed outside Governor Robert Fleming's house

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Speaker 1: and protested the presidential order. The canal Zone was American territory,

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Speaker 1: why should they have to fly a Panamanian flag. Governor

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Speaker 1: Fleming was in a pickle. If he defied the president's

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Speaker 1: order to fly both flags, he could lose his job.

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Speaker 1: But if he flew the Panamanian flag at Canal Zone

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Speaker 1: high schools, the students and parents might lose their minds.

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Speaker 1: So the governor came up with a temporary fix he

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Speaker 1: thought would buy him time until a permanent solution was found.

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Speaker 1: Instead of forcing the schools to raise both flags, he

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Speaker 1: told them not to fly any flags at all.

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Speaker 9: And you must understand the rituals that were behind that flag.

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Speaker 9: I mean, it was very important for them. The IROTC

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Speaker 9: group used to put it up and down every single

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Speaker 9: day with high military honors for example, besides having the

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Speaker 9: flag flown inside of their classrooms and things like that.

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Speaker 9: So for them was also a very important issue that

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Speaker 9: tied them together to their American, faraway country, you know.

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Speaker 9: So for them not having their flag flown in there

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Speaker 9: was a big show.

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Speaker 1: Jim Jenkins, a senior at Balboa High, remembers first reading

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Speaker 1: about the governor's decision in an article in Stars and Stripes,

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Speaker 1: the Armed Forces newspaper.

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Speaker 4: Right after Christmas that the article was published saying that

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Speaker 4: the governor had decided that there would be no flags

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Speaker 4: at the American courts or schools. So this is where

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Speaker 4: I said, well, where does the governor get off telling

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Speaker 4: us that we can't have our flag.

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Speaker 1: This was nineteen sixty four, an era of civil rights

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Speaker 1: demonstrations across the US. Jim read newspapers and watched TV.

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Speaker 1: He saw how young people were mobilizing and standing up

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Speaker 1: for causes they believed in. Why couldn't they do the

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Speaker 1: same thing in the Canal Zone.

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Speaker 4: When I got back to school, I had circulated a

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Speaker 4: petition to the governor to allow us to have our

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Speaker 4: flag back, and the first two days of passing it

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Speaker 4: around it's okay, and then the school ad and then

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Speaker 4: confiscated it, and that kind of ticked us off, because

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Speaker 4: you know, we do have the right to petition.

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Speaker 1: That weekend, Jim and his friends met at the Balboa Clubhouse,

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Speaker 1: a popular Canal Zone hangout complete with a soda fountain,

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Speaker 1: a lunch counter, and a swimming pool. Over a round

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Speaker 1: of cherry cokes and cream sodas, Jim and his friends

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Speaker 1: formulated a plan.

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Speaker 4: So a group of us got together and said, what

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Speaker 4: can we do. They've taken away our right to petition,

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Speaker 4: And they said, well, I don't know how we came

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Speaker 4: up with the idea. Of the idea was we'll raise

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Speaker 4: the flag as a demonstration of what we want.

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Speaker 2: So that's what we did.

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Speaker 1: Early Tuesday morning, a small crowd of Balboa High School

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Speaker 1: students assembled at the flagpole. Two Canal Zone police officers

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Speaker 1: were there too, in case things got rowdy, Jim and

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Speaker 1: his friends raised the American flag. They knew they were

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Speaker 1: breaking the rules and disobeying the governor's orders, but that

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Speaker 1: was kind of the point. Jim says that he was

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Speaker 1: the ringleader of the operation.

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Speaker 4: I got the group together to raise the flag. So

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Speaker 4: what would you call a lot again? We weren't looking

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Speaker 4: for trouble. We were looking for a resolution to not

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Speaker 4: having our flag.

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Speaker 1: After the students went to class, some school officials came

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Speaker 1: out and quietly lowered the flag, hoping the protest had

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Speaker 1: run its course. Not even close. Seeing the flagpole empty again,

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Speaker 1: some students ran out and raised a smaller American flag.

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Speaker 1: This time, about one hundred and fifty Balboa High students

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Speaker 1: gathered around the flagpole and spontaneously recited the Pledge of allegiance.

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Speaker 1: They ignored the principal's order to return to class. If

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Speaker 1: the goal of the Balboa High flag protest was to

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Speaker 1: get the governor's attention, it worked. Worried about a confrontation,

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Speaker 1: Governor Fleming told school officials and Canal Zone police not

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Speaker 1: to break up the protest. Let the teenagers have their moment.

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Speaker 1: They could take down the flag later. After the students

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Speaker 1: went home, but the students never went home. After the

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Speaker 1: school bell rang at three o'clock, even more students joined

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Speaker 1: the throng at the flagpole. Some of their parents came

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Speaker 1: to at the Canal Zone commissaries. There was a rush

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Speaker 1: on American flags. One store sold one hundred and forty

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00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: four large verge flags in six hours. American flags were

398
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: hung from balconies and waved from car windows. At sundown

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Speaker 1: that evening, the Zonian students and adults solemnly lowered the

400
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Speaker 1: American flag outside the high school, as was custom, but

401
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: the protest wasn't over. The governor hadn't changed his mind

402
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: about flying the American flag, so they weren't going anywhere.

403
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: About twenty five students kept in all night vigil at

404
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: the flagpole. Their parents and supporters brought blankets and warm food.

405
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: They were prepared to stay as long as necessary to

406
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Speaker 1: get the governor to change his mind. News of the

407
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: flag protest at Balboa High School spread quickly into neighboring

408
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: Panama City, but there the motivation for the student protest

409
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: wasn't understood as a patriotic desire to fly the American flag,

410
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: but as a colonialist refusal to fly the paname flag.

411
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: Jim Jenkins swears that he and his classmates had no

412
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: issue at the Panamanian flag. If there were two flagpoles

413
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: in front of Balboa, Jim says, they could have raised

414
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: both flags. What ticked Jim and his classmates off was

415
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: having no American flag at all.

416
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 11: Well, we were strictly protesting the governor's decision not to

417
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 11: allow an American flag at an American school. You know,

418
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 11: if he had said that we're going to put in

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00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 11: two flagpoles at the schools.

420
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 4: But until we do, we can't fly the flag, we

421
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 4: would have probably accepted that none of this was anti Panama.

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00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 14: It was all pro American school, being proud of the canal,

423
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 14: proud of the school, proud of America, and wanting to

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Speaker 14: have our American flag.

425
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Speaker 1: But again that's not the message that made it to Panama. City.

426
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: Stations railed against Canal Zone administrators who refused to follow

427
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: an agreement reached a year earlier between the American and

428
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: Panamanian presidents. Both flags were supposed to fly at all

429
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: public buildings. Panamanian newspaper editorials called out the callous Zonian

430
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: students who'd rather skip school than go to class under

431
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: a Panamanian flag Rumski Suker says that he and his

432
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: classmates at the Instituto nacion now heard about the flag

433
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: protests at Balboa High School the next day, Thursday, January ninth.

434
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Speaker 1: It was all they could talk about at school.

435
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 13: Unepuela getenia una tradisium. The Instituto Nacional was a school

436
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 13: that had a tradition of teachers really educating us about

437
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 13: Panama's internal political situations and especially about the relationship between

438
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 13: the US and Panama. There was a lot of emphasis

439
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 13: on that relationship, so I was very involved in student

440
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 13: political activities.

441
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: This wasn't the first time that flags had been a

442
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: political flashpoint in Panama. In nineteen fifty eight, a group

443
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: of Panamanian college students crossed into the canal zone and

444
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: planted dozens of small Panamanian flags in the grass. The

445
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: message was clear, the canal zone should belong to Panama.

446
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: The nineteen fifty eight flag protests started peacefully, but turned

447
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: ugly when Panamanian National Guard troops clashed with the students.

448
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: A year later, anti American riots broke out in Panama

449
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: City when the US authorities refused to fly the Panamanian

450
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: flag alongside the American flag in the zone. The rioters

451
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: tore down the American flag outside the US embassy and

452
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: marched toward the canal zone, intent on planting more Panamanian flags,

453
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: but again they were repelled by armed troops both American

454
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: and Panamanian. The clash convinced President Eisenhower that something needed

455
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: to be done. It was Eisenhower in nineteen sixty who

456
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: made the first pact with Panama to fly both flags

457
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: in parts of the canal zone. President Kennedy expanded the

458
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: order in nineteen sixty three, but it still wasn't in

459
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: place by nineteen sixty four, two months after Kennedy's assassination.

460
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 13: The flag has always been something very important to Panamanians.

461
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 13: For all six years of high school, the idea of

462
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 13: going back to the canal Zone and planning the flag

463
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 13: was an ever present thought.

464
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: As Rimsky remembers it, the decision that day to march

465
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: on the canal zone was completely spontaneous. No one at

466
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: the Instituto Nacional organized it, no one planned it. One

467
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: minute Rimsky was sitting in chemistry class. The next he

468
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: and his friends were asking the teacher if they could leave.

469
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: They weren't the only ones. Other Instituto Nacional students had

470
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: already met with the school director to get his blessing

471
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: for a counter protest. The plan was simple and direct.

472
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: The students of the Instituto Nacional would carry a Panamanian

473
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: flag into the canal zone and demand it be raised

474
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: in front of Balboa High School. I mean, what could

475
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: go wrong if any of the Panamanian students or school

476
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: administrators thought this was a wildly inflammatory move. No one objected.

477
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: The director even gave the students these schools historic Panamanian

478
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: flag kept inside a glass case.

479
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 9: It was a silken flag, saw more delicate than your

480
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 9: regular cotton flag, and it also had the Panamanian seal

481
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 9: in the middle of it and the words Institute National

482
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 9: on top of it. It had been used that some

483
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 9: US protests during the nineteen fifty by the Instituto student

484
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 9: so it was in a very delicate state. But it

485
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 9: was also a very important flag for those Stituto students

486
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 9: because of.

487
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: What it meant. A little before five pm on January ninth,

488
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: around two hundred teenagers from the Instituto Nacionale, including our

489
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: friend Rimsky, crossed fourth of July Avenue and entered the

490
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: canal zone. They carried hand painted signs reading Panama is

491
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: sovereign in the canal Zone and only the Panamanian flag.

492
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: Leading the pack was a group of students proudly displaying

493
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: the school's historic Panamanian flag. The canal zone police were

494
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: warned of the approaching students, but told not to engage

495
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: with them. The police observed from a distance, ready to

496
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: intervene if things got out of hand. The students didn't

497
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: want to provoke the police either, so they took pains

498
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: to remain calm and respectful as they marched deeper into

499
00:32:58,840 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: the canal zone.

500
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 9: The way they marched towards the sony was so orderly,

501
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 9: so calm, so peaceful. When they came close to Gorga's hospital,

502
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 9: they even stopped and kept a moment of silence for

503
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 9: the people that were sick in the hospital. They sent

504
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 9: the Panamanian national hymn in front of the Governor's mansion,

505
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 9: very quietly, very respectful, very respectful, very much into knowing

506
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 9: what they were doing and offering sound arguments on why

507
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 9: they were doing it to the people that were involved there.

508
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: In a celebratory moment, the Panamanian students walked up the

509
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: steps of the Canal Zone Administration building and posed for

510
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: a group photo. In the black and white picture, they

511
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: looked like a bunch of kids on a field trip.

512
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: Down the hill. Just a short walk from the administration

513
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: building was Balboa High School. The Zonians had no idea

514
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: the Panamanian students were coming. It would not be a

515
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: pleasant surprise. The flag test at Balboa High School began

516
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: as an emotional response to the governor's order. Students like

517
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: Jim Jenkins just wanted the American flag to fly in

518
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: front of his school. He says he had no gripe

519
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: with Panama, but that's not how the Panamanian students.

520
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 3: Read it to them.

521
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: The Balboa High protest was the latest in a long

522
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: line of insults against their country and their flag, and

523
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: now the two groups of teenagers were headed towards a

524
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: historic confrontation. Looking back more than sixty years later, Jim

525
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: wishes things could have turned out differently.

526
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 4: If I could go back to the first week in January,

527
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 4: I probably would have thought a little bit more about

528
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 4: how we handle it. It would have been great if

529
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 4: we could have joined forces come in and say hey,

530
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: let's fly both flags. We would not have objected. We

531
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 4: would have had to figure out how to do it.

532
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: If I could have figured a way to do it,

533
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 4: I would have.

534
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: But instead of finding a peaceful resolution, a schoolyard scuffle

535
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: over a flag was about to trigger an international political incident.

536
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: January ninth, nineteen sixty four, was day three of the

537
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: flag protests at Balboa High School in the Canal Zone.

538
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: After school, the crowd around the flagpole swelled to its

539
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: largest size yet. There were between four hundred and five

540
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: hundred Zonians of all ages, adults, teenagers, grade school kids.

541
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: They held American flags and sang patriotic songs, giddy with

542
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: their collective act of civil disobedience. The whole point of

543
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: the protest was to convince the Canal Zone governor to

544
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: let them fly the American flag in front of the

545
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: high school, but as of Thursday afternoon, the governor wasn't budging.

546
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: At six fifteen pm, Governor Fleming broadcast a statement.

547
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 15: The flag agreement is a valid commitment of our government.

548
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 15: We Americans in the Zone have an obligation as citizens

549
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 15: to support that commitment, regardless of our personal beliefs. A

550
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 15: hope that we Americans will conduct ourselves with reason and

551
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 15: in an emotional situation, successfully avoid emotionalism.

552
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: Governor Fleming had no idea how emotional the situation was

553
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: about to get. To the Zonian's great surprise, they weren't

554
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: the only ones protesting that day. Marching down the hill

555
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: from the Canal Administration building came a large group of

556
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: Panamanian high school students carrying their protest signs. On a

557
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: normal day, the Panamanian students would have been stopped immediately

558
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: by Canal Zone police the second they stepped onto Zonian soil.

559
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: But today, in hopes of avoiding a conflict, they were

560
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: allowed to enter. And now the uniformed students from the

561
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: Instituto Nacional were within sight of their destination, Balboa High School.

562
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: The mood around the flagpole shifted dramatically. The Zonians booed

563
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: and shouted at the Panamanian students, and the Panamanian students

564
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: hollered back, each in their own language, neither side truly

565
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: understanding each other, each assuming the worst intentions. That's when

566
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: the Canal Zone police finally stepped in.

567
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 9: It was incredibly tense, and not only what you describe,

568
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 9: but also add to that mixture that the Panamanias did

569
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 9: not speak English and the Sonia spoke little or no Spanish,

570
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 9: so the communications between the police commander Gaddis Wall and

571
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,919
Speaker 9: the Instituto students were done by an interpreter, and when

572
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 9: you interpret things kind of get lost in the mixture. Finally,

573
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 9: the captain of the police decided to allow a small

574
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 9: delegation of Instituto student close to where the American flag

575
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 9: was flying in the staff of Balboa High School. So

576
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 9: that meant escorting those students in the middle of a

577
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 9: very aggressive, very tense crowd of adults and also high

578
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 9: school kids to get to the flag.

579
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: As the rest of the Panamanian students stood back. Five

580
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: or six senior boys from the Instituto Nacion now approached

581
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: the circle of Zonians around the flag pole. They must

582
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: have been terrified, but they wore stern looks of defiance

583
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: as they gripped their school's historic Panamanian flag. Jim Jenkins

584
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: was part of the delegate of Balboa High students and

585
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 1: administrators who met with the Panamanians.

586
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 4: They wanted to raise their flag. Obviously, with only one flagpole,

587
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 4: that wasn't going to happen, and I explained it to

588
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 4: them that that wouldn't happen, but they were more than

589
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 4: welcome to stand on the steps with their flag, sing

590
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 4: their national anthem. We had no objection to them stating

591
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 4: their case that the country was cannibal.

592
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: The situation was volatile. The Zonians roared with disapproval as

593
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: the Panamanians approached the base of the flagpole. The delegates

594
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: from the Instituto Nacionale later said that they were booed, pushed,

595
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: and insulted as they tried to make their way through

596
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: the crowd. As Jim said, the hastily negotiated agreement was

597
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: that the Panamanian students would hold up their flag, sing

598
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: Panama's national anthem and go home. At least that's how

599
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: the Americans understood, whether due to poor translation or not.

600
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: The Panamanians decided to make a historic statement, like the

601
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: college students did back in fifty eight. They wanted to

602
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: raise the Panamanian flag alongside the American one. A heated

603
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: discussion ensued between Captain Wall and the Panamanian students. Tensions

604
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: ratched it even higher. The crowd of Zonians squeezed in

605
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: tightly around the Panamanian delegation and began to sing the

606
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: American national anthem. Exactly what happened next is a matter

607
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: of great contention. Fearing an outbreak of violence, Captain Wall

608
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: abruptly pulled off the ceremony and ordered the Panamanian delegation

609
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: to leave, but they weren't having it. Instead, the Panamanian

610
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: students tried to push forward poured the flagpole. That's when

611
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: Captain Wall ordered his Canal Zone policemen batons in hand,

612
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: to quote escort the Panamanian student delegation back to their classmates.

613
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: The police formed a line and with shouts of go go,

614
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: they began to slowly push the Panamanian students backward. According

615
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: to some reports, the police were joined by Balboa students

616
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: and Zonian adults in the crowd, who punched and shoved

617
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: the Panamanian teens.

618
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 4: I don't understand what was going on because as far

619
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 4: as I could tell, there were no canals On students

620
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 4: involved in that pushing and shoving. I know I wasn't.

621
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: No one knows exactly what happened next. Every eyewitness has

622
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: a different story. But in the chaos of the moment,

623
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: as the Panamanian students were pushed backward through a row

624
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: of bushes. Two of them fell to the ground, and

625
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: as they fell, the school's historic Panamanian flag was torn.

626
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 9: It's one of the biggest history mysteries that you can

627
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 9: think of, because you have the Panamanians saying that the

628
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 9: Americans ripped it up, and then you have the Americans

629
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 9: saying that the Panamanians fell as they were led away

630
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 9: by the police from that area where tensions had been rising.

631
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 9: And if you see the pictures, you can see the

632
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 9: policemen that were putting the Panamanian Institute students backwards, pulling

633
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 9: them backwards with their batons, and they were not hitting them,

634
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 9: but just pulling them back. And the students were moving

635
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 9: backwards where the flag in front, and then you had

636
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 9: the very hostile crowd also in the middle of the way.

637
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: However it happened, the Panamanian students were stunned. They had

638
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: promised the director of the Instituto that they wouldn't even

639
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: let the fragile school flag touch the ground, and now

640
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: it was nearly ripped and half again. Jim Jenkins swears

641
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: that it was never the intention of him or his

642
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: Balboa classmates to desecrate the Panamanian flag.

643
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 4: I have no idea. I actually have no idea. I'm

644
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 4: sorry that anything like that happened because I respect the

645
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 4: flag too much.

646
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 11: I respect our flag, I respect their flag.

647
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: The Panamanian students were enraged. They had tried to take

648
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: a stand for Panamanian sovereignty and they were attacked by

649
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: the Zonians and their police. It wasn't enough to deny

650
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: them the right to protest, but the Zonians had literally

651
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: trampled on the Panamanian flag, the symbol of everything the

652
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: students held sacred. Rimsky secret was right there. He wasn't

653
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 1: part of the student delegation, but he remembers the explosion

654
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: of emotions as word spread about what happened at the flagpole.

655
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 13: They said, they tore our flag, They tore our flag.

656
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 13: We were all angry, we were crying, and we stampeded

657
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 13: towards Panama City from different places. The group I was in,

658
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 13: the one very close to those carrying the flag, was

659
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 13: planning to go to the Instituto Nacional to tell the

660
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 13: rector and the teachers what had happened and to inform

661
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 13: the media.

662
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: News of the incident spread like wildfire. By the time

663
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: Rimsky and his classmates made it back to the Instituto Nacional.

664
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: There were already Panamanians in the streets. Panamanian radio stations

665
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: reported the confrontation at Balboa High School, but the story

666
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: got uglier and more violent with every retelling. Historian Wendy

667
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: Trabaldos says that the media absolutely threw gasoline on the fire.

668
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 9: Yes, they had a huge role, especially the radio. At

669
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 9: the time, the media people in Panama grossly exaggerated what

670
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 9: was happening, which contributed to the on risks that happened

671
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 9: during that time, especially during the ninth and the tenth

672
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 9: of January, when things were really very intense in such

673
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 9: a way that the US Army intervened.

674
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: Triggered by the torn flag and stoked by the media,

675
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: there was an unprecedented explosion of outrage in Panama City

676
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: directed at the Americans and the Canal Zone. For three days,

677
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: Panama City was engulfed in violence and chaos. Cars with

678
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: Canal Zone plates were flipped over and burned. The pan

679
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: am Building was vandalized. Protesters hurled rocks and molotov cocktails.

680
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: Rooftop snipers took aim with hunting rifles. The US Army

681
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: and Canal Zone police fired back with tear gas and

682
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: live ammunition. Tragically, at least twenty one Panamanians and four

683
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: Americans died in the fighting. The first Panamanian casualty was

684
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: a student named Ascanio a Rosamena.

685
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 9: He was a true leader in a youngster kind of way.

686
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 9: He was a great dancer, and he was captain of

687
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 9: the football team, and he was a volunteer for the

688
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 9: Red Cross. And he was actually there helping his former

689
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 9: Instituto friends during the riots that the bullet got to him.

690
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 9: So yes, he was a case of a true martyrdom

691
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 9: for the country.

692
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: In Panama. January ninth is observed every year as the

693
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 1: Day of the Martyrs. That's how Ascanio and the other

694
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 1: Panamanians who died in the nineteen sixty four riots are

695
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: remembered as martyrs for Panamanian sovereignty. That's the craziest part

696
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: of this whole, wild and tragic story. When Jim Jenkins

697
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: and his friends met in the Balboa Clubhouse and planned

698
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: their patriotic flag protest, they never set out to change

699
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: Panamanian history, but that's exactly what happened. Because they didn't

700
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: know that a few miles away, another group of impulsive

701
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: teenagers was going to grab their own flag and march

702
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: into history. I'm looking at the cover of Life magazine

703
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: from that week. It's a photograph taken of Fourth of

704
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: July Avenue during the riots. It shows three young Panamanian

705
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: men climbing a canal zone streetlight. Below them is a

706
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: car in flames. The man at the top of the

707
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: street light uses his belt to attach a large Panamanian

708
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: flag for Rimsky Sukra. That image brings back visceral memories,

709
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: memories of three days of chaos that galvanized Panama like

710
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: no other moment in its short history.

711
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 13: Every time someone climbed a fence with a flag, there

712
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 13: was a cheer. Every time they climbed a pole, there

713
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 13: was a cheer. The Panamanian people united like never before.

714
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: In the wake of the flag riots, the President of

715
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: Panama briefly severed diplomatic relations with the United States, a

716
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: bold move for a small Latin American country, but a

717
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: line had been crossed, and Panama refused to go back

718
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: to the status quo. For decades. The US had ignored

719
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: calls to renegotiate the Canal Treaty with Panama. The presidential

720
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: order to fly both flags at Canal Zone buildings was

721
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: supposed to smooth things over, but it backfired spectacularly. The

722
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: riots were a wake up call.

723
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 9: It came to this point this had to happen, sadly,

724
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 9: where people lost lives, both Panamanian lives and also American lives,

725
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 9: and you also had all the physical destruction that accompanied

726
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 9: the riots, that this had to happen for the US

727
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 9: to react and think, Okay, we might need to do

728
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 9: something in Panama and try to not be the colonial

729
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 9: power that we are.

730
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: The US government did come to the negotiating table and

731
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: through a long and arduous process, the Canal Zone Treaty

732
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: of nineteen oh three was replaced with a historic new agreement.

733
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy nine, the US dissolved the Canal Zone,

734
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: returning the contentious strip of land to Panama, and on

735
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: New Year's Eve in nineteen ninety nine, full control of

736
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: the Panama Canal was finally handed over to Panama. Historian

737
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: Maurice Alasso was ten years old when the Canal Zone

738
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: was finally opened to all Panamanians. She and her family

739
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: went for a picnic to a hilltop park that Panamanians

740
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: hadn't been able to access for seventy five years.

741
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 7: I remember remiately the happiness around me, my family, happiness,

742
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 7: everybody so happy that finally we.

743
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: Could anchor in the Canal Zone.

744
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 7: So this was a moment where people could go to places, parks,

745
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 7: to swim in certain beaches that you could not go before.

746
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 7: Every Panaminian family will have a different story of how

747
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 7: they entered the canal Zone in nineteen seventy nine, how

748
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 7: they fellow we're going back to this important piece of

749
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 7: our land.

750
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: As Jim Jenkins said before, he wished things had gone

751
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: differently in January nineteen sixty four. He wished there were

752
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: two flagpoles outside the high school. He wished that his

753
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: Balboa classmate and the Panamanian kids could have kept cooler

754
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 1: heads and come to an agreement. When the Balboa High

755
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 1: flag protest blew up into an international incident, Jim's name

756
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: was all over the press. The situation became unbearable for

757
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 1: him in the Canal Zone, a seventeen year old kid

758
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: being blamed for a political firestorm. Jim left the Canal

759
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: Zone and went to live with a relative in Ohio.

760
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: He didn't get to graduate with the rest of the

761
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: Balboa High class of nineteen sixty four. Jim later joined

762
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: the military and has two master's degrees. Rumski Suker is

763
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: now doctor Suker, a physician with a successful practice in

764
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: Panama City. He's in his late seventies, but when he

765
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: talks about politics, he still sounds like the teenage firebrand

766
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: who marched into the canal zone with a hand painted

767
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: sign and a crazy plan. Today Panama is a sovereign nation.

768
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: The Canal Zone is no longer a country within a country,

769
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: just a parklike neighborhood in Panama City. Under Panama's management,

770
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: the Panama Canal has been humming along now for twenty

771
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: five years. Our historian Wendy Trabaldo's it never ceases to

772
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 1: amaze her that one of the most monumental geopolitical events

773
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: in Panama's history was set in motion by teenagers being teenagers.

774
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 9: And you must understand teenagers, they are very much into.

775
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 1: Fighting for causes.

776
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 9: And that's true yesterday and true today. They really believed

777
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 9: in each other causes. Even if you do not agree

778
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 9: with their position, whether Sonian position or with a Panemanian position,

779
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 9: you can understand why they were thinking, they were thinking

780
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 9: and why they were behaving the way they were behaving. Yeah,

781
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 9: you can see that teenagerism in both sides in different ways.

782
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 9: But yes, you can see a typical teenage behavior. I

783
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 9: guess into two separate mind frames, two separate nationalities, to

784
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 9: separate educational systems and way of looking at things. But yes,

785
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 9: still teenagers.

786
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 5: How about that episode guys and I wanted to ask you,

787
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 5: do you have a favorite world flag?

788
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: Ooh, that's a good question. Flags. Were you a flag kid?

789
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: I was not a flag kid, but some kids love flags.

790
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 5: No, but I had a neighbor who was who you

791
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 5: could show him a flag and he could tell you

792
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 5: even like the hardest ones. And he's the reason why

793
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 5: I have my favorite flag, which was the flag of Gibraltar.

794
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 5: It has this castle on it and then it sits

795
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 5: above this field of red, and then it has this

796
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 5: golden key kind of dangling from the gates of the castle,

797
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 5: which looks like it's almost like a zipper that you

798
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 5: could unzip the castle. It's one of the wildest flags

799
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 5: there is.

800
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: I think I like the fun fact that Jamaica is

801
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: the only flag without red, white, or blue, and then

802
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: like Jamaica's flag is just green, yellow, and black. Yes,

803
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: so that's like a fun flag.

804
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 3: Fact, yes, that is I did not know that one.

805
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: The Isle of Man flag, Oh yes, looks to me

806
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 3: like three legs, yeah, like bent nye right, that's like

807
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: yea yeah.

808
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: I'm also from Chicago, and I feel like in terms

809
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: of a city with a flag, Chicago has a really

810
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: good one that just makes a lot of appearances like

811
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: maybe it is like I'm biased because I'm from Chicago,

812
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: but it is the only city with a flag that

813
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: personally I that is true.

814
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 5: The same.

815
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 3: So, in the past, we've done very special characters. Everyone's

816
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 3: always welcome to pick a very special character, but you

817
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 3: can also pick a very special moment. This year, we're

818
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 3: amending the rules who does a Zarin improvement for year three?

819
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 3: So does anyone have either a very special character or

820
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 3: a very special moment from this one?

821
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 5: Well, I would say for me, the very special moment

822
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 5: obviously is that moment of peak conflict and Drama's when

823
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,439
Speaker 5: the Panamanian high schoolers are marching to the Canal Zone

824
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 5: with their silken Panamanian flag, their eyes all filled with

825
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 5: ardor and like pride. I really love that. But then

826
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 5: there's obviously the question of was their flag torn up

827
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 5: and I've watched nineteen sixties like civil rights footage, so

828
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 5: I have to believe that there's a high likelihood that

829
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 5: the Americans did see that flag and rip it up.

830
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 5: So that was my favorite.

831
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 1: That was kind of my instinct too, that people get heated.

832
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: I was going to say, if you asked about very

833
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: special characters, I was going to say that original Panamanian flag.

834
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: It sounds beautiful.

835
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, it doesn't it.

836
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 3: I could put this in either category special character or

837
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 3: a special moment. If we're going special character, I want

838
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 3: to add historian Marisa Lasso, who I like. How we

839
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 3: do this often here where we'll have an expert historian

840
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: and then they become part of the story. They kind

841
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 3: of crawl into the script and we get more of

842
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 3: them in the third act. And so her talking about

843
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 3: being ten and being able to go into the canal

844
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 3: zone for the first time, that was a very nice scene.

845
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 5: Also, I'd never heard the term Zonians for people in

846
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 5: the canal Zone. I love that it sounds like a

847
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 5: sci fi name of off world people. It's like something

848
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 5: from like Alien Earth.

849
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. Zonians.

850
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 3: Now, if you are new to this show, what we

851
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 3: do here at the end, we have an in house

852
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 3: casting director Zarin, and we like to say these episodes

853
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 3: often like this should be a movie, and Zaren takes

854
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 3: it one step further and says, who should be in

855
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 3: that movie? Did you cast any of the key roles

856
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 3: in this one?

857
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 4: I did.

858
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 5: And starting with the historic figure of Teddy Roosevelt who

859
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 5: gives us the Panama Canal, I thought Andy Cirkis but

860
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 5: with false teeth.

861
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: Whoo, that's interesting because Andy Serkis is sort of like

862
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: a small guy, and I feel like people always think

863
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: of Teddy Roosevelt as a big guy, but I'm like

864
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: he can rise to the challengel totally.

865
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you for seeing it. And then for

866
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 5: Jim Jenkins, the American who's on the side of the

867
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 5: Zonians Alex Lothor, who if you don't know him, he's

868
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Speaker 5: the principled rebel kid from the Andor the series. He's

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Speaker 5: the one who gives all the speeches about fascism. I

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Speaker 5: thought he had just the right earnest energy because I

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Speaker 5: did believe Jim Jenkins, like you know, meant well when

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Speaker 5: he was telling the story and recounting events. And then

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Speaker 5: for Rimsky Sukra that I thought, uh, there's this kid,

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Speaker 5: Justice Smith. He's a Latin kid from Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom,

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Speaker 5: and I think he'd be perfect. He also has that

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Speaker 5: same kind of like earnestness. So there you go.

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Speaker 3: Actual casting directors take notes. Zaren' stune the work for you.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it's right there.

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Speaker 3: Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people.

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Speaker 3: This show is hosted by Danish Schwartz, Sarah Burnett, and

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00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 3: Jason English. Today's episode was written by Dave Rus. Our

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00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 3: senior producer is Josh Fisher. Editing and sam design by

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Speaker 3: Chris Childs. Additional editing by Mary Doo, Mixing and mastering

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00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 3: by Chris Childs. Original music by Elise McCoy. Research and

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00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 3: fact checking by Dave Rus and Austin Thompson. Show logo

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00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 3: by Lucy Kintonia special thanks to our voice actors Chris

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Speaker 3: Childs and Josh Fisher. I am your executive producer. We'll

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Speaker 3: see you back here next Wednesday. If you'd like to

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Speaker 3: email the show could reach us at Very Special Episodes

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Speaker 3: at gmail dot com. Very Special Episodes is a production

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Speaker 3: of iHeart Podcasts.