1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: We're not just talking about physical aging, right, We're not 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: talking about just how your face looks. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: We're talking about how. 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: You communicate or indicate that you are not past your prime. 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: I'm Susie Benacerum and I'm Jessica Bennett. 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: And this is in retrospect, where each week we revisit 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: a cultural moment that shaped. 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 3: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Usually we zero in on a particular moment from the past, 10 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: but today we want to talk about what happens when 11 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: the past catches up with you and your face. So, 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: jess today I want to talk about something that I 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: feel like is coming up a lot these days when 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: you and I talk, just like more often when we're 15 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: on the phone late at night. 16 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 4: When you forcibly call me on the phone in a variable. 17 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: Assault of my millennialness. 18 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: Okay, listen, First of all, I know you like talking 19 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: to me. Stop pretending like you hate it. 20 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 3: Can it be said in a text mess? 21 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: I know, I know you would always prefer to be. 22 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 3: Texting in a studio with you all day long. 23 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, stop pretending like you don't love me 24 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: and you don't want to talk to me all the time. No, 25 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I get it, Jess really does hat phone calls. 26 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: I insist on them because I'm the older ones. But 27 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: also it takes forever to type things out. So now 28 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: I've just like resorted to voice memos with you. 29 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 30 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 3: Actually, that I think is a good compromise. 31 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: That's a good compromise. 32 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so we're we're we've settled on voice memos for us. 33 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: But I think that actually gets to this idea of aging. 34 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit older than you, so I definitely 35 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 1: have some habits that are slightly different. And I think 36 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: one interesting thing is that, you know, my relationship to 37 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: aging is changing because of this podcast in some ways, 38 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: Like we are taking a lot of pictures, we are 39 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: doing a lot more public appearances, and I think I 40 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: have started to examine my face for signs of aging 41 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: in a way that I did not used to do 42 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: or just like really hadn't thought about. 43 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 4: Well. Also, because traditionally you've been running things behind the scenes. 44 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been very invisible, and I think that's been 45 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: very deliberate for me, Like I never wanted to be 46 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: on camera, and so it's been a bit of. 47 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: A weird experience. 48 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: And I think you and I've talked about this a lot, 49 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: Like I got botox for the first time recently, congratulation, 50 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: thank you. I just really yeah, maybe it's first botox. 51 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: I was really like kind of afraid of it, and 52 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: it was totally fine. But that experience also made me 53 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: more self conscious in a way because I don't know 54 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: about you, but the woman who does my botox, she 55 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: requires you to take like a picture of your face, 56 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: like a close up without makeup and send it to her, 57 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: and then when you do the botox, she takes pictures 58 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: and then in a month you take more pictures. 59 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 3: To share to the promress to examine it. 60 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just like looking at your face. 61 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: So I feel like now I'm like slathering more things 62 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: off my face, Like I'm like fighting this thing that 63 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know I needed to fight, right, So I'm 64 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: trying to kind of readjust that thinking back to a 65 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: normal way of experiencing my face, which is it's fine. 66 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: You know, nobody is like care if I have a 67 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: few wrinkles. 68 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: But a thing that made me think about this also 69 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: is there's this recent Vogue cover where the supermodels of 70 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: the nineties, this group of women who were just like 71 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: hugely famous during our childhood graced the cover and they 72 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: released a documentary on Apple Plus about their. 73 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: Fame and how they experienced that as a group. 74 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: And the supermodels I'm talking about are, of course, Cindy Crawford, 75 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: Christy Turlington now known as Christy Burns. 76 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: Naomi Campbell, and Linda Evangelista. 77 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 3: Do we're all in their fifties now? 78 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: Who are all in their fifties now? Do you have 79 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: a memory of the supermodel era in the nineties? 80 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, of course I remember Cindy Crawford in 81 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 4: like those pepsi ads, and I remember that George Michael 82 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 4: music video that they were all in that. I think 83 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 4: you have a lot to say about. Yeah, But wasn't 84 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 4: the whole thing with this cover that they were in 85 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 4: their fifties now, they were reflecting back on their careers, 86 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 4: and yet they looked they appeared utterly ageless on that cover. 87 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 88 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: So there's a little bit of a distinction between how 89 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: they look on this Vogue cover and the documentary that presumably. 90 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: This cover is promoting. 91 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: In the documentary, they are seen much more just like 92 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: going about their business. But it is interesting that there 93 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: was a bit of a backlash to the cover because 94 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: they had been so airbrushed, as is vogues want to do, 95 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,559 Speaker 1: and so there was the sense of, like, why weren't 96 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: they embracing. 97 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: Their more natural beauty? 98 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: But I think that's a really high expectation, right, Like 99 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: I think it expects a lot of women to sort 100 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: of just like embrace aging when society is so clear 101 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: that aging is a woman is seen as a negative. 102 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 2: Right. 103 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: So these women all became really famous when they were teenagers, 104 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: except for Sidney Crawford, who was twenty I think when 105 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: she really arrived on the New York modeling scene. 106 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: And even that is interesting to me, like. 107 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: I really have a clear recollection of them, like I 108 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: can kind of close my eyes and see each of 109 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: them in their most famous moments. And Cindy Crawford especially, 110 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: I just loved Cyndy Crawford. And you know, I did 111 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: not think of them as young. I mean, I think 112 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: that's what's interesting. They were so larger than life. It 113 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: seemed like to me, I would have told you they 114 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: were in their thirties, which is crazy, like no models 115 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: start in their thirties, right, But I was a teenager, 116 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: so to me, they seemed like impossibly sophisticated and cool, 117 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: and so you know, these are women who were children 118 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: when they were revered, and you know, have to varying 119 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: degrees embraced getting older. But it's a lot to ask 120 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: of them to sort of just like show up on 121 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: Vogue bear face. They're not going to do that, I think, 122 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: unless they are extraordinary circumstances. 123 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: And one thing that. 124 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: Occurs to me when I look at this cover is 125 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: that actually the way we think about magazine covers has changed. 126 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: Right Like, when we were growing up, these were the 127 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: women who were on fashion magazines, they were extremely young. 128 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: But sometime in the late nineties, fashion magazines very deliberately 129 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: moved towards putting celebrities on the cover incentive models. They 130 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: just found that it sold more magazines. So we do 131 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: actually see older women on covers now, just much more regularly, 132 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: Like we're just exposed to more beauty that's not twenty 133 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: Like the cover right before this one was Angelina Jolie, 134 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: who is forty eight. So it's not such a big 135 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: deal to have women in their fifties on the cover 136 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: of a magazine anymore. Like there was a time when 137 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: that would have been just like wild. 138 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: But it's like, did they look fifty? 139 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: Well, that's the interesting thing in general, is what we 140 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: consider looking fifty and what fifty looks like now. I 141 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: feel like, especially celebrities of fifty is so different. Like 142 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: if you think about what Jlo looks like, that is 143 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: not what I in my mind, as a teenager, would 144 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: have pictured a woman in her forties or fifties looking like. Right, 145 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: Because there's so much you can do now to fight 146 00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: the aging process. 147 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: There's so much as expected of you. 148 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 4: Right, I mean, Botox just celebrated it's twentyth anniversary. 149 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 3: So for twenty years now. 150 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 4: People have been getting botox, and all of the different 151 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 4: procedures have only progressed and become more sophisticated since then. 152 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 4: But didn't Linda Evangelista actually have a terrible plastic surgery experience? 153 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: Did she talk about that in the cover story at all? 154 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: So she didn't talk about it herself, I don't think, 155 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: but they did touch on it because it's become sort 156 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: of a big story that surrounded her in the last 157 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: couple of years. You know, she had done this procedure 158 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: called cool sculpting, and she alleges that as a result 159 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: of that procedure, she was in her own words, disfigured 160 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: by it, and where she was trying to remove fat, 161 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: which is what cool sculpting does. It's like non invasive 162 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: removal of fat. She'd actually developed hard pockets of fat, 163 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: which does sound terrible, like I would be really traumatized 164 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: by that too, And she did settle a lawsuit against 165 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: the company, so I know what the company admitted or 166 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: didn't admit to, But it certainly is an example of 167 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: the fact that there are so many procedures that are 168 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: going on now that just haven't been around that long, right, 169 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: So there are consequences to this, Like I think botox 170 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: might be twenty years old, but it's certainly really in 171 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: the last ten years that it's become just very common 172 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: to use fillers and things that freeze your face that 173 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: just didn't exist in the cultural space in. 174 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: The same way it does now. 175 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: I think partially because of the Kardashians, Like they do 176 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: so much to themselves and it becomes so normalized, and 177 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: I think influencers do so much to themselves. 178 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, what plastic surgery used to be something that you 179 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 4: hid and now it is something that you. 180 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: Talk about, well, in some cases you brag about, right, 181 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: like I think a certain kind of influencer wants to 182 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: be like, I'm rich or famous enough to need this. 183 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: So there's like a kind of different relationship to plastic surgery. 184 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: And certainly, you know, I think we just are more 185 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: aware that that is a common tool that everyone uses, 186 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: or a lot of people use. I shouldn't say everyone, 187 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: because I think outside of New York and LA maybe. 188 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: It's not quite as common. 189 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: But here, I was really shocked when I started to 190 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: think about getting botox to find that like every woman 191 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: I knew had essentially done it already, and I was 192 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: the last of my friends. 193 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 4: Okay, but back to this cover for a second. Did 194 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 4: they actually talk about the aging process or that's not 195 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 4: what it's about. 196 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 3: It just that became the backlash to it. 197 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not really what it's about. 198 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: Actually, So the documentary itself is really about retelling their stories. 199 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: These four women became incredibly close. They sort of represented 200 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: a time in modeling that doesn't exist anymore, like this 201 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: era of the supermodel, and this was a very nineties 202 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: cultural phenomenon. They became celebrities in their own right. 203 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: They were all in that George Michael music video. 204 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: Right in some ways, I think that video really cemented 205 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: their fame and is like a sort of a bookend, 206 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: one of the bookends to the beginning of the height 207 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: of their famous the song Freedom. 208 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: The song Freedom. 209 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: This is this like very famous George Michael video, which 210 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: you know he doesn't appear in because he's starting to 211 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: have a relationship with fame. 212 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 2: That's complicated. 213 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: For those who don't know, George Michael was gay and 214 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: not out of the closet. So he talked about how 215 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: he wanted to start deconstructing. 216 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: His image as a sex symbol. 217 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: But his music really was very sexy, like he literally 218 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: had a song called I Want Your Sex, so to 219 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: replace himself, he asks these four models to be in 220 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: the video and the models are all lip syncing to 221 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: his song and they're in various states of undress, and 222 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: this video played all the time. 223 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: It was a huge hit for. 224 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: MTV, and it became such a huge thing that a 225 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: year later, versauced his fashion show. The finale look was 226 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: these four women coming out to the song Freedom, and 227 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: that is in many ways scene as like the moment 228 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: that put supermodels on the map. So you know, this 229 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: cover is really about that. But I just naturally assumed. 230 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: I mean, these are four women in their fifties who 231 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: made their living off of beauty standards, so I assume 232 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: there just would be a lot of conversation about it. 233 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: And Linda Evangelisa does talk about it a little bit, 234 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: but basically she's the only one in the Vogue piece 235 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: at least, and she says, you know, I don't mind aging. 236 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, a sign that we're growing and 237 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: I want to grow old and I want to stick around. 238 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: And that's, you know, obviously, how we all feel. I'm 239 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: sure it's better to age than not age, right, the 240 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: alternative isn't great. But I think as women, there's just 241 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that aging is not, you know, something. 242 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: That helps your career or helps how you're seen by the. 243 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: World world, Like you just lose cultural currency in our world. 244 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 4: Everything you're saying here is really reminding me of a 245 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: thing that happened last year involving former CNN host Don Lemon, 246 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 4: who I believe this contributed in a part to his firing, 247 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 4: or at least allegedly so, in which he noted that 248 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: a woman of a certain age is quote past her prime. 249 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was talking about NICKI Haley, who by 250 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: the way, is fifty one, like not past her prime 251 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: by any definition I would use. Apparently it's a definition 252 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: Don Lemon would use. Will play it so you can 253 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: hear it for yourself. 254 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 5: NICKI Haley isn't a ener prime. Sorry, when a woman 255 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 5: is considered being a prime in her twenties and thirties 256 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 5: and maybe forties, that's not according to merime for what 257 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 5: it depends, And it's just like prime. If you look 258 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 5: it up, it'll if you if you google when is 259 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 5: a woman in a prime, it'll say twenties, thirties, and forties. 260 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: I don't miss forty, So I got nothing I agree 261 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: with that. 262 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 5: So I think she has to be careful about saying 263 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 5: that politicians aren't in their prime. 264 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 3: We need to qualify. You're talking about prime for like 265 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 3: child boring or are you talking about. 266 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: And this is so awkward because he's talking to Poppy 267 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: Harlowe who is in her forties. Okay, it is crazy 268 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: that he's using sort of like the definition of child 269 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: bearing years for being president. I mean, he was suspended 270 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: for this and he did apologize for it. But I 271 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: think this really speaks to. 272 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: How men think about women in a lot of ways. 273 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 4: Well, by the way, Don Lemon is fifty seven. But yeah, 274 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 4: I think what you're getting at is this is not 275 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 4: just among men, but there is a belief, there's a 276 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 4: societal belief, and it is backed up by research and 277 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 4: data and economics and everything else that when women age, 278 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 4: they somehow lose their cachet, they lose their currency, they 279 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 4: past their prime, they become old hags, and when managed, 280 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 4: they are distinguished and wise. And for politics, you literally 281 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 4: can't run for office until you're thirty five years old. 282 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 4: So actually, Nicki Haley, for what it's worth, is literally 283 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 4: in her political prime. 284 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 3: Whatever you think of her. 285 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, And what's interesting is that what Don Lemon is 286 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: responding to the reason he says this about Nicki Haley 287 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: is because she has made a comment about Joe Biden 288 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: being too old to be president, Like she's essentially saying 289 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: that she should be the candidate because you know, both 290 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: Biden and Trump are too old, and you know they're 291 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: in their eighties, Like right. The idea that you would 292 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: compare a woman who's fifty one to men in their 293 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: eighties and be like it's the same, so she shouldn't 294 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: comment on their age like that is a wild reach 295 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: on his part. 296 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 4: Well, what you're getting at, I mean, and what this 297 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 4: clip and this exchange and all of it crystallizes is really. 298 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: An age old belief that a. 299 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 4: Woman can read past her prime and that there's this 300 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 4: enduring double standard when it comes to women in age. 301 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually, what's so interesting is when I was doing 302 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: research for this, I was looking up the Supermodel documentary 303 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: and I came across this documentary from twenty twelve actually 304 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: that had aired on HBO that was literally about supermodels 305 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: and aging. 306 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: It's kind of what I thought this was. 307 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: And there's this wild quote in the New York Times 308 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: piece about it from Sheila and Evans, who at the 309 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: time was running HBO documentary films, and she's promoting the film, 310 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: so she obviously thinks these women are interesting and have value. 311 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: But what she says when she's describing the film is 312 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: beautiful women getting older women who decay. That's always intriguing. 313 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: Like decay is so wild in this context to me. 314 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm sure she'd probably use that word for 315 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 4: men too, are you, Like, are you think about I 316 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 4: guess in a way you are also, I just like, I. 317 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: Don't know why that word is so vivid to me, 318 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: like I would never. 319 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,479 Speaker 3: Just humans as decaying. 320 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: It's just like evokes like a picture of a mummy 321 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: in my mind. 322 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: And you know, I think that is so ingrained. 323 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: That's like, I'm sure she wasn't saying this to be insulting, right, 324 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: Like she goes on to say, you know, they are 325 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: their own instruments. Would you do when you're a strativarius? 326 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: That's losing your strings? Right, So she's essentially saying these 327 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: supermodels have lost their tools when they become older, right, 328 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: which I mean fair given how people feel about older women, right. 329 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 4: And I mean, honestly, you probably don't even need me 330 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: to give these statistics because maybe it's so known at 331 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: this point that agism exists and that there is a 332 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 4: double standard for women. But I've actually done a lot 333 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 4: of writing on this subject, and a few years ago, 334 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 4: when I was at Newsweek, we actually conducted this major 335 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 4: survey looking at hiring managers and agism in the workplace. 336 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 4: And this now I think is probably not so surprising, 337 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 4: but eighty four percent of managers said that they'd hesitate 338 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 4: and that other employers would hesitate in hiring someone who 339 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 4: is a visibly older candidate, so like, yeah, this is 340 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 4: very real. 341 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that feels very real. Is a woman? 342 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: I know that it is going to be harder for 343 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: me to get jobs the older. I guess that's how 344 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: I feel about it, certainly. 345 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: And it's not how you feel. 346 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 4: That's literally a fact, yeah, I mean fair, it is 347 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 4: literally a fat yeah. 348 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: So I mean I think ageism exists across the board, 349 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: but especially for women, And like, what we do is 350 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: a job that requires some access to cultural currency, right, 351 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: and women are seen as having less access to that 352 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: as they get older. Like I run digital newsrooms, I'm 353 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: not going to be seen as being able to kind 354 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: of think of the right stories or have a sense 355 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: of the right cultural moments, which I think is absolute bullshit, 356 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: but something I'm very aware of the older I get, 357 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: and I've become more resistant to telling people my age. 358 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: Actually I thought I would become more. 359 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: Willing as I got older, because when I was younger, 360 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: it was almost like you're too young, you look too 361 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: young for this job. Like I remember getting a lot 362 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: of feedback that I was like, are you old enough? 363 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: Like whatever. 364 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 3: That's actually a really good point. 365 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 4: So I think what you're describing and being a leader, 366 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 4: especially in newsrooms, as you age where you're expected to 367 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 4: know like what the kids are doing, you can be penalized. 368 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 4: And I think that's probably true for anyone. But as women, 369 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 4: you spend like the first ten years of your career 370 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 4: trying to convince everyone that you're not too young to 371 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 4: be experienced or have wisdom at all, and then there's 372 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,479 Speaker 4: like this maybe couple year blip when like you're okay, 373 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 4: and then suddenly you're too old. 374 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like instant, like one night you're one thing, 375 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: the next night you're the other one. 376 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 4: And I don't think that that is true or to 377 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 4: the same extent for most men. 378 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: I mean definitely not, because most of the newsrooms I've 379 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: worked in have had older men in charge, and no 380 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: one asks if Marty Barron knows what the kids are doing, 381 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like everyone just assumes that 382 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: he's a man who's earned his position and he knows 383 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: how to hire people who know what the kids are doing. 384 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: But there's just more of an expectation of women that 385 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be all the things, and if you 386 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: really want to stay relevant, you better look like you 387 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: are not that old. 388 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 4: The other thing that is confusing about all of this 389 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 4: is that nobody looked their age anymore. 390 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: Like what even is that? 391 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 4: So do you remember in twenty twenty when Jlo and 392 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 4: Shakira did the halftime show at the Super Bowl. Yeah, 393 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 4: and they were in there, like you know, leotards or whatever. 394 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 4: Jla was fifty at the time, Shakira was forty three, 395 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 4: and they were dancing and they were singing and did 396 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 4: this amazing act and people were like, oh my god, 397 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 4: they're incredible, like they have more stamina and athleticism than 398 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 4: some of the guys on the field, which like, yes, 399 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 4: they absolutely did, and like power to them, snaps to that. 400 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 3: But I remember looking at Jalaen thing is that what 401 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 3: fifty looks like? 402 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: I mean, how many people can look like Jlo? 403 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: She looks amazing And so I don't know that too. 404 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 4: It's like, so, on the one hand, you have a 405 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 4: fifty year old who shows no visible signs of aging. 406 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 4: I mean maybe if you were to see her face 407 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 4: to face she would, but certainly not in any of 408 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 4: the public platforms. Yeah, and then you have Pamela Anderson. 409 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 4: This is another semi recent example where she was at 410 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 4: fashion Week in Paris and she went totally makeup free. Yeah, amazing. 411 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 4: She's in her fifties. She looked incredible. 412 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: She looked basically her age, and everyone's saying like, oh 413 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 3: my god, this is a rebellion. This is so brave, 414 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: and you kind of want to be like, is. 415 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 2: That really brave? 416 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 3: Like is that what bravery is? And I get it 417 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: on what I thought. I mean, Malala is brave? 418 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 4: Right, you know, yeah, I guess it is sort of 419 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 4: brave to go out without a made up face when 420 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 4: you're a person whose appearance has been the entirety of 421 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 4: your career and you're a woman. 422 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 3: But by the same token, Like, is that what we 423 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 3: call bravery? 424 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 4: Now? Like I can think of a few things that 425 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 4: are a little bit more. Actually, this is my whole 426 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 4: thing about linguistic Like can we not call it brave 427 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 4: if it's not? 428 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, it's actually interesting, right because I just said 429 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: when you talk about Jaylo j Loo looks amazing, but 430 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: I also think Pam Anderson looks amazing and one of 431 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: those women looks her age, right, I think Pam Anderson 432 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: has just embraced a more natural approach to aging. 433 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: And by the way, for. 434 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 4: People listening who may not have seen her recently, yeah, 435 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 4: she has. She really does go makeup free. She hasn't 436 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 4: done any plastic surgery in a long time, but. 437 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: Of course the early years of her career she. 438 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 4: Admitted openly that she did tones plus yes choice. So 439 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 4: and I mean that too in and of itself is 440 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 4: like an irony. It's like, so we're now we're hailing 441 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 4: the person who in. 442 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 3: Fact created the unreal standarday. 443 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: Standards as being so brave for now tearing them down. 444 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I want to be clear, like I have 445 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: no judgment actually about plastic surgery, Like I obviously just 446 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: admitted that I got botox, and if I want to 447 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: do some nipsyn tucks, I'm not going to feel any 448 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: kind of way about that. The truth is, we live 449 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: in a society that's going to judge me based on 450 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: how I look, and if I have to do things 451 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: to feel more comfortable or confident, I don't feel any. 452 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 3: Career or better in my career. I screwed up hard 453 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 3: about it, Yeah, but I don't. 454 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: Feel shame about that, and I don't shame anyone else 455 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: for it. But you know, there's one person who I 456 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: do sort of feel a little bit conflicted about this 457 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: on because I love her so much, which is Madonna? 458 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: You know, to me, Madonna is the icon of the 459 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. Like I just worshiped Madonna when I 460 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: was a kid, and I felt like she. 461 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: Broke so many boundaries. 462 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: She really showed us that you could be a woman 463 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: who owned her sexuality, who owned her ambition, who was 464 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: willing to be entirely herself and didn't feel all this 465 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: pressure to conform. But you know the way her plastic 466 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: surgery looks now, and you know, maybe this is unfair 467 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: because it's just like I don't like what she's chosen 468 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: to do, Like j Loo looks good to me. 469 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: So I accept the choices she's made. 470 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: But you know, there was this recent fear last year 471 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: about the Grammys. You know, she's just gotten a lot 472 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: of filler and her face looks really puffy. She just 473 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: isn't recognizable physically, Like she doesn't it like herself, yes, 474 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: and not in a way that's flattering, unfortunately. And you know, 475 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: she's talked about how hard it was to hear that feedback. 476 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: I mean people really openly talk. 477 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So. 478 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 4: That's just so the thing that confused me is like, yeah, 479 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 4: if you've seen Madonna in the last few years, like 480 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 4: this is what she looks like, So why is everyone 481 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 4: suddenly now upset? But people were up in arms. Everyone 482 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 4: was criticizing her. It was like in every single tabloid, 483 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 4: it was all over the internet. And I don't know, 484 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 4: we live in a culture that makes women do this 485 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 4: and then you're gonna pounce on her for doing it. 486 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and she's sixty four, right, so she 487 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: is doing what she feels she needs to do to 488 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: continue to stay in the spotlight. And I do think 489 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: like social media makes this so that she must also 490 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: be looking at her face all the time. 491 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: Right, she has to do Instagram, she has to do. 492 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: All these things that maybe wouldn't have put as much 493 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: pressure on her. 494 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 4: But in my fantasy of Madonna, because I also love 495 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 4: her and thinks she's incredible, she was doing this as 496 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 4: affect you. 497 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 3: To everyone else, she was like, yeah. 498 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 4: This is what I look like. You might not like it. 499 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 4: This is what women have to do, Like I'm going 500 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 4: to put it in your face. 501 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,239 Speaker 2: And she actually has said that, right. 502 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: She responded to this by saying it was ageism and misogyny, 503 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: and she said I think she said something like I 504 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: look forward to many more years of subversive behavior, pushing boundaries. 505 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: But I think this sort of gets back to what 506 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: you were saying about Pam. What feels like more subversive 507 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: behavior in this world is actually allowing yourself to age, right, ye, 508 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: And so that is a little bit of the conflict. 509 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 2: It's like, I'm not at all surprised that Madonna feels pressure. 510 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: To look young, right, but I wish that she felt 511 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 1: about it the same way she felt about a lot 512 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: of other things in her career, which is, fuck the 513 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: standards everyone else is setting. I'm going to be the 514 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: person I choose to be. And you know, she's saying 515 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: that this is that, and so I want to take 516 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 1: her at her word. But it is interesting that it 517 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: brings up something for me, right, Like, I feel a 518 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: certain way about the choices she's making. 519 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 2: Clearly other people and so many other people do. 520 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 4: And I mean, yeah, it's easy to say we wish 521 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 4: that she could age naturally and still be doing what 522 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 4: she does. But would the culture let her, would music 523 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 4: executives let her, would the Grammys let her? 524 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: I don't know, Well. 525 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: I mean Pam and Erson's a great example, right, like, 526 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: she is doing that and it's it's working for her. 527 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 3: She's actually she's not in a show. 528 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 4: She's like a tending fashion a make of her own 529 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 4: accord without a stylist, just as like a private citizen. 530 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 2: That's true. 531 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's really hard to know what you 532 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: can and can't get away with. 533 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 4: We should also mention too, by the way, Yeah, so 534 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 4: botox has been around for years. Like in general, all 535 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 4: of these procedures have increased, but they've increased more for 536 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 4: men than they have for women. I'm not saying that 537 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 4: more men are doing them than women now, but I 538 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 4: believe the data would show that increase has been higher 539 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 4: for men because it's now becoming normalized for men to 540 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 4: do it too. 541 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: Oh one hundred percent. I mean, I think it's so interesting. 542 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: I actually remember the first time I realized men in 543 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: the spotlight got blostic surgery. I was working with a 544 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: very well known woman in the public eye. Mean, I 545 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: just won't out her for this, and we were watching 546 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: just randomly an Oprah show. It was on in the 547 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: background in the newsroom, and she looked up and it 548 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: was Tom Cruise being interviewed by Oprah. Not the famous 549 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: Tom Cruise, like a previous Tom Cruise apear not the 550 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: jumping on the couch, and she said to me, Wow, 551 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: his work is so good. 552 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 2: I wonder who he's using. And I was like, what 553 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: do you mean? 554 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: Like I did not realize that Tom Cruise in his 555 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: forties was getting work done. 556 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 2: You know. To me, that was like a real revelation. 557 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: And you know, as I was in the TV business longer, 558 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: I realized a lot of male anchors were getting plastic surgery. 559 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: But I think it used to be something that men 560 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: in the public I did and hid. But now we're 561 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: pretty aware of the fact that, like everyone kind of 562 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: knows right that Joe Biden is getting facelifts and using botox. 563 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 2: Like we just expected it now. I don't know how 564 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: you could not know it. 565 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean, the man is eighty with the skin of 566 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: a fifty year old man. 567 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 2: I mean, have you looked at a picture of him? 568 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: What a picture of Joe Biden right now? 569 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 4: Skin looks anyway? Yeah, I of course would not be surprised. 570 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: Well, and I think Joe Biden has to write because 571 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: if he looked as. 572 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 4: If the major criticism against him in this moment of 573 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 4: City's tool. 574 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: Right, and then like you look at someone like Nancy Pelosi, 575 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi has obviously also had a lot of work 576 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: done to maintain the appearance of youth to some degree, right, Like, 577 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: she doesn't look like she's thirty, but she certainly looks 578 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: younger than her years, because you know, I think just 579 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: being in the public eye forces you to look a 580 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: certain way, and we have a different expectation of what 581 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: ages are supposed to look like now because the needle 582 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: has moved so much, we don't actually know what eighty 583 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: is really. 584 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: Supposed to look like a thing. 585 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 4: I mean, look, this is all really complex. Even Gloria 586 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 4: Steinem has admitted to having some work done. 587 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 3: So how are you supposed to think about it? 588 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 4: Like, it would be great if everyone age naturally and 589 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 4: we could all just like look like our actual normal cells. 590 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 3: But we're too far past that. 591 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 4: At this point, when I was reading up on this 592 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 4: subject a little bit and trying to remind myself what 593 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 4: I had written in the past, I was rereading this 594 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 4: essay that Deborah Sparr, who used to be the president 595 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 4: of Barnard where you went to college. 596 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: I'm familiar with them. 597 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 4: For the Airtimes, and she was talking about the kind 598 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 4: of feminist conundrum of getting work done and how she 599 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: and her peers had done everything right, like they had 600 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 4: worked their way up in their careers. They'd found partners 601 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 4: who were going to change the diapers and support them. 602 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 4: They put off their fertility so that they could establish 603 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 4: their careers in time, and then they hit a certain 604 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 4: point and suddenly they're like all getting work done, but 605 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 4: then lying about. 606 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 3: It or like trying to hide it. And I think 607 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 3: that's an enduring thing. 608 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 4: I mean, that was written I think in twenty sixteen, 609 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 4: and I think people are talking more openly about it now. 610 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 4: But I don't know. 611 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know what the solution is. I 612 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 3: know that for me, my job, which is in many 613 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 3: ways my. 614 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 4: Livelihood, is very intimately connected with the ability to understand 615 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 4: what's happening in the culture. And oftentimes the people that 616 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: are creating the most interesting culture are young people, and 617 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 4: so you. 618 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: Have to know about that. So is you know, getting 619 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 3: a bunch of work done to look younger going to 620 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 3: do that for me? 621 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 4: Like? No, But we're living in this interesting period I 622 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 4: think now where the Internet. 623 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: Has allowed people of every. 624 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 4: Age to consume the same things. So on some level, 625 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 4: it's like we're listening to Olivia Rodrigu and like in 626 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 4: the shower while doing so. And the teenagers that I 627 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 4: document in my reporting or my students in the class 628 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 4: I teach are all wearing the clothes that I literally 629 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 4: wore when I was like getting my first period at 630 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 4: age thirteen at Washington Middle School in Seattle. And so 631 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 4: there's like this weird flat of culture that's occurring, and it's. 632 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: Like who's young, who's old? How do we tell? 633 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 4: Like, I don't look my age, neither does anyone else. 634 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 4: Young people are doing makeup tutorials on TikTok that make 635 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 4: them look so old. 636 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: Like well, also there's skills, people are dying. 637 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: There are gray now as like a fashion trend, right, 638 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: which I mean, I guess that's not now, that's been 639 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: around for a couple of years. But this gets to 640 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: something I think that's interesting, which is, we're not just 641 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: talking about physical aging, right, We're not talking about just 642 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: how your face looks. 643 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: We're talking about how. 644 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: You communicate or indicate that you are not past your prime. 645 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yes, that is, and how do you 646 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 3: communicate that. 647 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: Well, you have this interesting piece in the Times about 648 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: what it feels like to no longer be the group 649 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: that everyone is courting, right, Yeah, And I think that 650 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: that's also interesting, right that there is this thing that 651 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: happens as you get older, which is that you start 652 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: to feel like you're not as relevant to the conversation 653 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: because the conversation is no longer directed towards you. 654 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 5: Right. 655 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 4: Well, So, I mean I I entered my career at 656 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 4: a time when everyone was desperate to figure out millennials. Yeah, 657 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 4: so it was like every headline was asking about millennials. 658 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 4: People were always coming to me at my various jobs 659 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 4: where I was like an intern or whatever, being like, so, 660 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 4: what are like the kids doing? And there was a 661 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 4: full year after I moved to New York after college 662 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 4: where I was working in a bar and I was 663 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 4: taking market research surveys online where the only requirement was 664 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 4: that I had to be a millennial, and I would 665 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 4: just answer questions about like whatever random thing because they 666 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 4: just valued my opinion as. 667 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 3: A millennial so much. 668 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 4: And so you start to feel like the center of 669 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 4: the generational universe and you get. 670 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: Used to that. 671 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 4: So I think I did get used to that a 672 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 4: little bit, Like I was, Yeah, I was the cool one. 673 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 4: I was the one that was telling people what was 674 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 4: happening on the Internet. I started my career at a 675 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 4: time when people didn't care about the web, but they 676 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 4: simultaneously knew that they needed to understand it. And how 677 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 4: are they going to understand it? They were going to 678 00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 4: ask me. 679 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 2: I love that you referred to it as a web. 680 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you started a time when we 681 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: called it the web. Right, we don't call it that. 682 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: Anymore, but you know, truly, I think it's like you've 683 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: been replaced by gen Z, which is now the sort 684 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: of age group that advertisers are starting and everyone wants 685 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: to understand. And so I think this is just a 686 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: natural progression, like it is time to pass on the 687 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: baton in some ways. But also there is one thing 688 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: I came across in the research that I've actually been 689 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: trying to really absorb for myself, which is that you know, 690 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: I told you I found that older Supermodel movie from 691 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and in it, Carol Alt, who was also 692 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: a very famous model in. 693 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: Her time, said something that I think. 694 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: Is true and that it's easy to forget, which, as 695 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: she said, aging isn't necessarily bad, and this was her quote, 696 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: there comes a point at which you are a precious 697 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: commodity because there is nobody else like you, and I 698 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: think that's an important thing that we should all really 699 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: try and take to heart. There's value in aging, and 700 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: we forget that lot in this particular society. But it's 701 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: real and I'm not looking to be twenty again for. 702 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 3: Sure, Susie. 703 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 4: I want to quickly tease our next episode, which actually 704 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 4: pairs nicely with this idea of aging. 705 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: Ooh, is it about botox? 706 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 3: It's not about botox. 707 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 4: It's about American Pie, which can you believe is twenty. 708 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 3: Five years old this year? 709 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 4: Oh no, And it's also about how that movie popularized 710 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 4: the mill bil Bil Hell. 711 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 712 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 713 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 714 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find 715 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod. 716 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 6: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 717 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 6: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 718 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 6: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 719 00:33:58,760 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 6: which we may or may not. 720 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: You can also find this on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 721 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 722 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen. 723 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 6: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 724 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 6: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 725 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 6: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharan 726 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 6: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 727 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 728 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stem. 729 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: And Katrina Norbel. 730 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 731 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are 732 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannaccarum and Jessica Bennett. 733 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 3: We are also executive producers. 734 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 6: For even more, check out inretropod dot com. 735 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 3: See you next week.