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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, we want to let you know that we

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Speaker 1: are doing our traditional Pacific Northwest Swing for our live

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Speaker 1: show next year, in fact, the end of January next year,

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Speaker 1: very early next year.

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Speaker 2: And we're starting out in Seattle, Washington on January twenty

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Speaker 2: fourth at the Paramount Theater. It's huge, that's right, and

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Speaker 2: then on to Portland on January twenty fifth at Revolution Hall,

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Speaker 2: the place we always are. It's kind of our home

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Speaker 2: away from home in Portland. And then we're gonna wrap

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Speaker 2: it all up at the thing that started the Pacific

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Speaker 2: Northwest Tour in the first place all those years back.

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Speaker 2: SF Sketch Fest will be at the Sydney Goldstein Theater

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Speaker 2: on Friday, January twenty sixth, right, Chuck, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And remember you can go to stuff youshould Know dot

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Speaker 1: com click on tours in order to get to the

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Speaker 1: correct ticket link or go to the venue page only.

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Speaker 1: Do not go to scalper sites.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and we'll see you guys in January.

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Speaker 3: Okay, welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and

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Speaker 2: there's Chuck and well I was gonna say Jerry's here,

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Speaker 2: but that would be a dirty, filthy lie. True, it's here,

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Speaker 2: it's you and me, chuck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about to say just like the old days.

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Speaker 1: But Jerry was around from the beginning. I wasn't around

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Speaker 1: for the beginning, man.

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Speaker 2: So I guess this is a periodical situation we find

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Speaker 2: ourselves in, just like the periodical situation.

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Speaker 1: Can I say a couple of quick things here?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I want to congratulate listener Corey Wegner

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Speaker 1: because this topic is from Corey.

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Speaker 2: Nice way to go, Corey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, listener suggestion, which is great. And also want to

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Speaker 1: officially welcome mister Gibson Bryant into the family, the new puppy.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he's cute.

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Speaker 1: He's Gibson is a was being fostered through the Lifeline

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Speaker 1: organization that we work with a lot here in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: and foster mom Rachel was just wonderful. And Gibson's a

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Speaker 1: little coonhound shepherd mix and he's awesome mm hm. And

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Speaker 1: it's great. So far, so good. He's just that he

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Speaker 1: and the cats they gotta they gotta work it out.

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Speaker 1: So far it's not great. Oh no, so it just

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Speaker 1: takes a little time. I figure, you know, a week

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Speaker 1: or two. Usually is as based on like when we've

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Speaker 1: dog sat other dogs, because the cats love dogs, are dogs.

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Speaker 1: But like a new dog comes in and they're like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they gotta he has to prove himself to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they just gotta. You know, they gotta work it out.

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Speaker 1: It'll take a little time. But he's a very sweet boy.

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Speaker 1: He's fitting right in.

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Speaker 2: He looks like it. I guess you've posted pictures on

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Speaker 2: your Instagram page.

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Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, Gibson's on there. Uh, Chuck the podcaster if

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Speaker 1: you want to check out this handsome little leggy boy.

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Speaker 2: Nice. Well, welcome Gibson. Congratulations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: To the stuff you should know family, the stuff you

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Speaker 2: should know army. I see where this is going. It is.

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Speaker 2: I normally would have just left it at yes, the

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Speaker 2: stuff you should know family. But the reason the stuff

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Speaker 2: you should know army ties into this because we're talking

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Speaker 2: about armies, but fake armies. When believe it or not,

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Speaker 2: the stuff you should know army is a fake army.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, there's not a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of like international conflict or killing or shooting of machine

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Speaker 2: guns with the stuff you should know armies. So yes,

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Speaker 2: I would say it's a fake army.

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Speaker 1: Well, what's the very definition of army? I don't even know.

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Speaker 2: A group that engages in international conflicts and kills and

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Speaker 2: shoots machine guns.

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Speaker 1: Actually, well, no, it can be a large number of

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Speaker 1: people organized for a purpose, like an army of photographers.

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Speaker 2: I guess, so I think those are called gaggles.

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Speaker 1: Though, Okay, he's in the photograph first.

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Speaker 2: Okay, no offensemen. Of course, who are great people at

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Speaker 2: the stuff you should know? Army because of course the greatest. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so there are other armies that are who's patterns of

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Speaker 2: killing are questionable at best, And that includes both the

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Speaker 2: Salvation Army, but less so the Skeleton Army, because if

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Speaker 2: any of the groups I've just mentioned just now bore

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Speaker 2: the closest resemblance to an army, it would be the

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Speaker 2: Skeleton Army probably.

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Speaker 1: And this is when I had not even heard of

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Speaker 1: until Cory Wegner sent this in same and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just thought we should dive in a little bit

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Speaker 1: on the Salvation Army first, probably right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure people are like, well, guys, what are

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Speaker 2: you talking about with the Salvation Army? Just wait, hold

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Speaker 2: your horses please.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've probably heard of the Salvation Army. They are,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're an international organization at this point, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they have been doing it since the eighteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: believe late eighteen seventies, and their mission is to basically

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Speaker 2: combat poverty where it's at, like they go to where

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Speaker 2: poverty is at, and apparently in the United States alone

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Speaker 2: they serve twenty three million people a year, so they're

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Speaker 2: doing some significant work. And I don't want to walk

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Speaker 2: past the fact that they're also a pretty controversial organization,

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Speaker 2: especially today. They're a Christian organization, a Protestant Christian organization

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Speaker 2: at its core from their founding, so they have sometimes

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Speaker 2: unfriendly views or have held unfriendly views towards LGBTQ plus community.

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Speaker 2: And now they've kind of revised it to say like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we don't mind, just don't tell us that you're gay.

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Speaker 2: You can come work with us anytime you want. And

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Speaker 2: that's not quite enough. But at the same time, there's

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Speaker 2: people who are on the conservative Christian right who are like,

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Speaker 2: that's too far. So the Salvation Army finds itself in

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Speaker 2: a very ticklish pause right now, and I just that

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Speaker 2: doesn't have anything to do with this particular episode, but

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Speaker 2: I think it'd be kind of disingenuous to just not

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Speaker 2: mention that at all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were founded by a gentleman named George Booth.

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Speaker 1: He was born in England and Nottingham in eighteen twenty

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Speaker 1: nine and was a Methodist preacher at first and was

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Speaker 1: you know, the picture I get of George Booth from

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Speaker 1: kind of reading up on him is that he kind

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Speaker 1: of from the start was a bit of a rabble

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Speaker 1: rouser within the church as far as, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was into street preaching. He was frustrated with the

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Speaker 1: sort of formalities of the church, the hierarchies of the church.

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Speaker 1: Probably felt like, you know, the church isn't helping the

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Speaker 1: people that are most in need. Was maybe a little

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Speaker 1: too disconnected from poverty and like the real people out

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Speaker 1: on the streets, and so that was sort of his

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Speaker 1: It seems like he was charged from the like within

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Speaker 1: himself to do something bigger than just be a standard

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Speaker 1: Methodist preacher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I get the impression you kind of

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Speaker 2: touched on it that he probably viewed the church as

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Speaker 2: an institution as really detached from the people who needed

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Speaker 2: it's helped most. So he started an organization. He decided

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Speaker 2: to kind of go help people where they're at. So

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Speaker 2: he started street preaching, apparently based on American revivalists of

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Speaker 2: the early nineteenth century, and like he would just stand

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Speaker 2: on the street corner and preach, and so too would

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Speaker 2: his wife. This is a time where if you were

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Speaker 2: super religious like this and you said women can preach too,

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Speaker 2: and let's go help the poor directly. That was deeply

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Speaker 2: progressive at the time in England. England was so ridiculously

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Speaker 2: stodgy conservative that I read about a magazine that in

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Speaker 2: its inaugural edition promised that it would do nothing to

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Speaker 2: to help along this morbid desire for change, that they

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Speaker 2: were just going to keep things exactly the way that

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Speaker 2: they were and that's what the establishment wanted. People like

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Speaker 2: George Boother like, that's not working for a whole, huge

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Speaker 2: segment of society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, his wife, Catherine Mumford when they married, played a

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Speaker 1: big part, played a big part in this whole story. Actually,

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Speaker 1: so you can kind of put a no, don't put

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Speaker 1: a pin in her. She's there.

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Speaker 2: I can the skeleton army putting a pin on her.

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Speaker 1: No pens or maybe flinging a dead rat her way.

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Speaker 1: So in eighteen as a story goes. At least in

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy eight, he was dictating a letter and he said,

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Speaker 1: the Christian Mission is a volunteer army, capital C, capital M.

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Speaker 1: And then he said no, no, no, strike that and

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Speaker 1: perhaps struck it himself and crossed out volunteer and wrote

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Speaker 1: down Salvation a Salvation Army, And that was sort of

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Speaker 1: you know, Salvation Army is so ubiquitous, especially on Christmas

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Speaker 1: time in the United States when they you will people

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Speaker 1: I think generally sort of associate Salvation Army with either

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Speaker 1: dropping off clothes and toys that you don't want at

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Speaker 1: a Salvation Army store, or buying things from a Salvation

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Speaker 1: Army store, or around Christmas when they have Santa claus

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Speaker 1: is ringing that bell with that kettle outside and they

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Speaker 1: are asking people to donate their spare change or what

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Speaker 1: have you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And if you know, by Christmas time you get

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Speaker 2: annoyed at that ringing of the bell that you hear

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Speaker 2: all the time, count your lucky stars that you weren't

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Speaker 2: born in England in the eighteen seventies, because you would

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Speaker 2: have been super annoyed by the Salvation Army at that time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And that was sort of my deal with

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Speaker 1: the Salvation Army. That's how I knew them, and I

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Speaker 1: knew they did, you know, obviously a lot of charitable works.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't really ever stop to think about the

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Speaker 1: whole army thing, the military aspect, because when I earlier said,

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Speaker 1: like an army can be just a collection of people,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't how they meant it. Like they meant it

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Speaker 1: as in, you know, not we're going to take up arms.

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Speaker 1: But they gave themselves, they wore uniforms, they gave themselves

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Speaker 1: military ranks. Booth named himself the General, and it became like,

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Speaker 1: I think their newspaper was called the War Cry. Their

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Speaker 1: initiation creed were called the Articles of War. So they

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Speaker 1: really sort of, I don't want to say, leaned into.

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Speaker 1: I'm really trying to stop.

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Speaker 2: Saying that they were army forward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were very army forward in a sort of

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Speaker 1: militaristic sense, but again not like hey, we're gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: start a real war. But they were just like we're

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Speaker 1: warriors for Christ. Basically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, to be initiated, you had to kill a man

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Speaker 2: with your bare hands. They were pretty serious about the

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Speaker 2: army thing. Yeah, But the reason that they were so

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Speaker 2: into the army. That was part of the zeitgeist at

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Speaker 2: the time. This is the Victorian Age, the English at

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Speaker 2: its peak at the time, and the English Empire got

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Speaker 2: that way because of the military. So the military is

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Speaker 2: highly regarded, so it kind of made sense to kind

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Speaker 2: of go with that. It'd be like today, Oh boy,

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Speaker 2: it'd be like fashioning yourself after the swifties. If you

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Speaker 2: were founding like a new rescue mission organization, I would

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Speaker 2: messle them. No, you would, you would not. So he

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Speaker 2: had he established this in pretty short order. He started

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Speaker 2: to use the Salvation Army to just it was set

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Speaker 2: up to achieve his aims. And his aims we've kind

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Speaker 2: of touched on a little bit, but they're pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 2: The biggest one really is if you want to help

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Speaker 2: poor people, go to the poor people and help them directly.

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Speaker 2: That's how you help poor people. That's just what you

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Speaker 2: have to do. You have to get your hands dirty.

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Speaker 2: As it was, that was pretty much the foundation of

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Speaker 2: the Salvation Army and it can tell. It's a big

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Speaker 2: part of it still today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, which is great. Their mantra was soup soap salvation.

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Speaker 1: In other words, you know, help feed the poor, help

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Speaker 1: I mean soap. I don't think they literally meant to

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Speaker 1: help clean them, but they may have just sort of to.

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Speaker 1: I think that sort of stood for lift people out

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Speaker 1: of poverty and and also bring them to Christ. I

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Speaker 1: mean that was a big part of it. We can't

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Speaker 1: ignore that. And as who say, what.

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Speaker 2: Bring them to? Who?

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Speaker 1: Christ? Jesus Christ?

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Speaker 2: Oh, oh Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 4: I got to do you think I met Jimmy Christ, Billy,

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Speaker 4: I don't think so. I think Christ would be run

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Speaker 4: out of town on a rail.

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Speaker 1: House pronounced people would say Christ these days? Right?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Sure?

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Speaker 1: I mean that that's got to be a last name.

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Speaker 1: See h R I S T.

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Speaker 2: Yes. If we have any listeners out there, who that's

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Speaker 2: your last name and you go by Christ, please right in.

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Speaker 2: We want to hear all about your life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially if it's Jimmy Christ. I would love to

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Speaker 1: know you. And another big part is, especially as it

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Speaker 1: pertains to the Skeleton Army, who will learn about here

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Speaker 1: in a minute, is that alcohol is bad. They were

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Speaker 1: way way into the Temperance movement and alcohol was just

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Speaker 1: a big, big evil and that would factor really, really

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Speaker 1: heavily into the goings on between the Salvation Army and

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Speaker 1: the Skeleton Army.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they also well, like we said, women can preach.

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Speaker 2: That was very radical, very progressive at the time. And

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Speaker 2: they also were super into music. I don't I know,

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Speaker 2: I didn't see why. I guess General Booth himself was

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Speaker 2: particularly into music, because again, this whole, this whole organization

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Speaker 2: seems like an extension of him and his wife as well.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to just call her that. Catherine. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Catherine's views as well. I think they kind of jibed

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Speaker 2: really well together.

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Speaker 1: But they're into the same bands exactly.

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Speaker 2: There was a quote that's often attributed to George Booth

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Speaker 2: that may or may not have been said by him,

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Speaker 2: but it fits. It's why should the devil have all

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Speaker 2: the best tunes? And I'm pretty sure he was making

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Speaker 2: a failed reference to Black.

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Speaker 1: Sabbath right and eventually Striper. No, he would have been

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Speaker 1: way into Striper.

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Speaker 2: I was reading about them the other day. I can't

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Speaker 2: believe I didn't tell you this, did you? How far

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Speaker 2: did you follow them? When did you leave off from Striper?

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Speaker 1: When did I leave the Striper Army? Yesh? I you know,

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Speaker 1: as I sort of transitioned out of going to church,

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Speaker 1: So that would have been like middle high school.

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Speaker 2: So they were still doing like the Black and Yellow.

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Speaker 1: Yellow and Black Attack. Yes, I think that was the

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Speaker 1: name of one of their records. Yeah, I mean they

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Speaker 1: were still around. I think this was right before they

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Speaker 1: had their They had a like a secular ballad hit.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yes, so that's yes. They they you transition and

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Speaker 2: shortly after that they transitioned, and they left all that

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Speaker 2: god stuff behind and released a couple of albums and

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Speaker 2: if they did not do very well, and I think

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Speaker 2: they were pretty surprised. They thought, well, we'll just go

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Speaker 2: more mainstream, and it didn't work. They were more successful

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Speaker 2: mainstream wise as a Christian Christian forward metal band than

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Speaker 2: they were as like a regular metal band.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The Sweet Brothers is that who they were? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Michael and Matthew Sweet.

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Speaker 2: Like Matthew Sweet, I want you to be my girlfriend,

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Speaker 2: Matthew Sweet.

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Speaker 1: No, in fact, maybe it wasn't Matthew. Maybe I'm conflating,

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Speaker 1: but I know Michael Sweet was.

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Speaker 2: I think he was the singer, Okay, Michael Sweet and

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Speaker 2: then I think the drummer was Jimmy.

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Speaker 1: Christ Actually, oh man, I remember some of those names

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Speaker 1: I don't remember, or maybe the drummer was the other brother.

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Speaker 1: I remember he played sideways. Oh that's awesome, which is interesting.

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Speaker 2: Do you still have the action figures?

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know if I still have that record,

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Speaker 1: I'll have to look through my vinyl.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was into that for a little while.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, at any rate, I don't Yeah, I just

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Speaker 2: I don't remember how I was reading about Stripper, but

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Speaker 2: I was reading all about their career the other day.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: How easy to fall into a Striper rabbit hole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, yeah, they were into music. The thing is

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Speaker 2: is and they wanted to use music, not Striper. We're

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Speaker 2: talking back about the Salvation Army. Although they Striper wanted

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Speaker 2: to do the same thing. They wanted to use music

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Speaker 2: to get God's message across. Absolutely unlike Striper, they had

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Speaker 2: zero musical talent, but were very happy to be as

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Speaker 2: loud as possible. So you know the image you have

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Speaker 2: of like temperance people and like kind of old, like

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Speaker 2: goody two shoes Christians in the nineteenth century banging on

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Speaker 2: a huge drum, singing songs about Jesus and all that. Sure,

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Speaker 2: that is based in reality. That was a Salvation Army

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Speaker 2: and everyone who wasn't in the Salvation Army loathed them

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was pretty annoying if you were enjoying a

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Speaker 1: pint in a pub and the Salvation Army came around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because in addition to going to the poor, where

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Speaker 2: the poor were, they figured, if you want to save sinners,

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Speaker 2: go to where the sinners are. So they would storm

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Speaker 2: into pubs and start singing religious hymns at the top

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Speaker 2: of their lungs, banging drums like telling people they were

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Speaker 2: going to hell. And these people are just trying to unwind,

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Speaker 2: you know, after a hard day's work at the docks,

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Speaker 2: or who knows.

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Speaker 1: Well, they had no job and they were just getting loaded.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or they're celebrating a promotion at the docks. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. The thing is they did not want to

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Speaker 2: hear that at the time, and even if you weren't

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Speaker 2: in the pubs, just hearing them go down the street

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Speaker 2: preaching all day Sundays sometimes during the week too. They

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Speaker 2: really purposefully made a nuisance of themselves because they were

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Speaker 2: really assertive and hostile almost and shoving their message about

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Speaker 2: salvation down everyone throat, whether they wanted to hear it

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Speaker 2: or not.

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Speaker 1: All right, I think that sets the stage time for

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Speaker 1: a break. Yes, for sure, all right, for sure, we'll

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Speaker 1: be right back after this, you bet, all right. So

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Speaker 1: the stage is set, the Salvation Army is firmly in place,

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Speaker 1: and they are going around. Aside from doing great things

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Speaker 1: for the poor, they are going around and go into

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Speaker 1: pubs and banging their pots and pans and their drums,

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Speaker 1: and they're singing all these religious songs and the people

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Speaker 1: do not like it. So that is the sort of

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Speaker 1: the position that they're in at this point. So what

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Speaker 1: forms is what's called the Skeleton Army to literally combat

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Speaker 1: the Salvation Army. Ed helped us out with this one.

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Speaker 1: And there's I would argue that there aren't two origins.

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Speaker 1: There's one origin. But the sort of second part of

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Speaker 1: the origin story we'll get to. Is that fair to say?

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Speaker 2: It's fair but confusing? Sure?

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Speaker 1: All right. Well, the first, you know, basically how they

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Speaker 1: formed is what we've been talking about. They were literally

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Speaker 1: just annoyed at the Salvation Army coming around telling them

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Speaker 1: not to drink, singing songs and loudly preaching and disrupting

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Speaker 1: their pub time. And so the initial sort of response

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Speaker 1: was just jeering at them, won't you sit down and

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Speaker 1: have a be that kind of thing, being very sarcastic,

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Speaker 1: and then things started just to escalate, sort of little

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Speaker 1: by little, because these were drunks basically, and when you're

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Speaker 1: someone engaging a drunk and telling them not to drink,

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Speaker 1: that's not going to go over too well, and timpers

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Speaker 1: will genuinely flare at some point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I think we said the Salvation Army

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Speaker 2: set itself up in eighteen seventy eight. By eighteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 2: the first newspaper account of a clash between the Salvation

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Speaker 2: Army and people who hated the Salvation Army made it

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Speaker 2: into a newspaper. I think there was an incident in Liverpool,

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Speaker 2: and this is not the first incident. This is just

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Speaker 2: the first incident that got written up in the paper.

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Speaker 2: And the reason it got written up is because there

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Speaker 2: was a riot. A riot. People hated what the Salvation

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Speaker 2: Army was doing so much that they would often trigger

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Speaker 2: riots whenever they started doing their marches, and they were

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Speaker 2: roundly blamed for this like at the time, as we'll see,

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Speaker 2: it kind of came out differently in the end, but

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Speaker 2: everyone blamed them for just existing and doing what they

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Speaker 2: were doing. They felt that the Salvation Army was responsible

378
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Speaker 2: for the riots that the people who were against the

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Speaker 2: Salvation Army would carry out when the Salvation Army came around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So seventy nine, like you said, was the

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Speaker 1: first noted one in Liverpool, and then you know, if

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Speaker 1: you read contemporaneous accounts, which we did of the time,

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Speaker 1: they just started popping up here and there. In March

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Speaker 1: of eighty one in the East End of London there

385
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Speaker 1: were some guys leaving a pub and they beat up

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Speaker 1: a bunch of Salvation Army I guess what would they

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Speaker 1: be called soldiers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 1: Okay. There were some Salvationist women which they were called

390
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Speaker 1: Hallelujah lasses was a nickname, that were entrapped with some

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Speaker 1: rope by the crowd. They were getting hot coals thrown

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Speaker 1: at them, and this sort of played out how it

393
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Speaker 1: played out in most places. Things got pretty ugly. When

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Speaker 1: I joked about throwing dead rats at them, I wasn't kidding.

395
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Speaker 1: That was a real thing that they did. Apparently dead

396
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Speaker 1: rats and live cats in at least one instance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was another instance where there was a guy

398
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Speaker 2: who was testifying during a Salvation Army meeting and forty

399
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: people with chamber pots stormed the meeting and dumped urine

400
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Speaker 2: all over the man. Yeah, that happened. They were in

401
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Speaker 2: their own meeting. They weren't even out on the street

402
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Speaker 2: or in a pub. That's how hated these people were.

403
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Speaker 2: They would be physically assaulted, they would have they would

404
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Speaker 2: have just all sorts of stuff thrown at them, in

405
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Speaker 2: addition to dead rats, dead fish, and there were plenty

406
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Speaker 2: of accounts of not just men, but also women and

407
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Speaker 2: even children being assaulted by the crowds. Like you said,

408
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Speaker 2: the Hallelujah lasses were basically roped with hot coals thrown

409
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Speaker 2: at them. There was a count somewhere that said between

410
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Speaker 2: twelve months. This would have been in the probably the

411
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Speaker 2: early eighteen eighties. Across England, six hundred and sixty nine Salvationists,

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Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty one of those were women, were

413
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 2: quote knockdown, kicked or brutally assaulted. Fifty six buildings of

414
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Speaker 2: the army were stormed and partially wrecked. That was another

415
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Speaker 2: thing that people against the Salvation Army they like to do.

416
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Speaker 2: They like to try to burn down their meeting halls,

417
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Speaker 2: sometimes while they were in it. And then eighty six Salvationists.

418
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Speaker 2: Fifteen of them women were thrown in prison. So like

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Speaker 2: it was a it was a really like hardcore thing

420
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Speaker 2: to go out and do as a Salvation Army soldier.

421
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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh absolutely, and so yeah, I hope he didn't

422
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Speaker 1: paint it as too light of a brush like Oh

423
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Speaker 1: they would just sort of you know, yell at them

424
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Speaker 1: and jeer at them and throw dead rats and things.

425
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 1: They got physically violent. It was not a good scene

426
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Speaker 1: the Salvation Army for their part, when you mentioned the music,

427
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Speaker 1: one thing that they were fond of and they still

428
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: do that today in England, is they take popular songs

429
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Speaker 1: and change the words at like soccer games, at their

430
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: football games, like these old school like pub sing alongs,

431
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: they would change it to their local pub or their

432
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Speaker 1: local football team or whatever. And so the history of

433
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Speaker 1: just changing lyrics, I mean, I say, it's a little

434
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: lazy quite honestly. Maybe write a new song altogether, but

435
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: that's okay, sure, But they would do that. The Salvation

436
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: Army would do that. So they would take popular pub songs,

437
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: change up the lyrics to suit them and their Christian message.

438
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: Ed dug up some of the titles that were pretty great.

439
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: Oh every Land is filled with sin is not bad.

440
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 1: My favorite is the Devil in Me. We can't agree.

441
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: I hate him and he hates me.

442
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: It sounds like agreement, so you know that's true now

443
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: that to think about it.

444
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: But this is what's going on. Like this only angered

445
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 1: the people in the pubs even more because they're like,

446
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: those are our songs, and there are, hey, let's get drunk,

447
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: so songs that we sing together. Don't change them around

448
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: and sing them in our face because you know I

449
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: might assault you or dump urine on your head.

450
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. There was another song that kind of gets across

451
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: the Salvation Army sentiments about the places they were visiting.

452
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: It's called out of the Gutters, we Pick Them. And

453
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: I read that there was resentment among a lot of

454
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: the lower working class groups who were getting visited by

455
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 2: these people being helped out with their poverty strickenness, who

456
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: were like, this is my neighborhood that you're talking about

457
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 2: and singing about is the gutter. So they offend They

458
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: managed to offend an annoy essentially everybody. And yet what

459
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 2: was really interesting about this is that they started to grow,

460
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 2: Like each Sunday there'd be more and more of them

461
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: and more and more of them, and they would like

462
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: their meeting halls would get bigger and bigger because there

463
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: were more Salvation Army members who had joined, who had

464
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: been picked out of the gutter, or who had said

465
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: I'm giving up the devil drink or whatever reason, had

466
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: decided to join the Salvation Army and were now the

467
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: very people who were annoying their former.

468
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: Selves, yeah, or their friends.

469
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: Man, I'll bet that was uncomfortable, oh man.

470
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: So they had other tactics. The Salvation Army had white uniforms,

471
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: so they would try and mar those uniforms in a

472
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: number of ways. One is there was a narrow alley

473
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: leading to one of their meeting halls, and they would

474
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: paint a sticky tar on the alley walls. They would

475
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: throw eggs that had blue paint in them. They would then,

476
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: in turn, sometimes take the original pub songs that they

477
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: had changed Salvation Army into Christian songs back into more

478
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: body versions of their Christian songs and sing them back

479
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: into them and even mess with their old sort of motto,

480
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: which was soup soap. What was the third one? Salvation

481
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: soup soap, Salvation to beer, beef, beer and bacca, which

482
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: is tobacco.

483
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: Which is pretty hilarious.

484
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, so people were getting creative, but it was

485
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 1: also truly violent at times.

486
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: It was. And even if it wasn't violent, think about

487
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: how annoyed you'd be if you weren't on either side.

488
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: Because the people who would give the greatest resistance and

489
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: in hostility toward the Salvation Army were the exact same

490
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: people that would do this in a pub today, twenty

491
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: somethings who are like already feeling pretty rowdy, probably the

492
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: drunkest of the people in the pub. Yeah, imagine just

493
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: being like us, Chuck, We're just trying to have like

494
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: a beer in a booth, and not only is the

495
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: Salvation Army going off, but now it's being doubly amplified

496
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 2: because the other people, these hooligans, are essentially pushing back

497
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: just as loud, if not louder, I would just be like,

498
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: shut up.

499
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: Well, that's why we end up in a coffee house.

500
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: And then we've lost all credibility as cool guys.

501
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: Could we end up in a coffeehouse and we just

502
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: bring our own flasks?

503
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: Right? Oh, there you go. We just regained some credibility.

504
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: Did we ever have credibility as cool guys, I did.

505
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: How about you?

506
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: I did not. Yeah, I did not.

507
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a cool guy, and I know other cool guys.

508
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: You've always been a cool guy.

509
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: Man, I did not.

510
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: So we should talk a little bit about Susannah Beattie.

511
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: She was a captain in the Salvation Army who died

512
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: in either eighteen eighty one or eighteen eighty two. And

513
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: the Salvation Army will say, and there are some contemporaneous

514
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: accounts too that we saw in newspapers and stuff, where

515
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: she was essentially killed by the Skeleton Army. She was beaten.

516
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: I saw in one of the newspapers that said she

517
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: was kicked in her wound.

518
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: I was hoping you weren't going to say that. That

519
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: is so tough to hear even.

520
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: It is well. And I don't know if that implies

521
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: that she was pregnant, because I didn't see that.

522
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that what they were saying

523
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: is she probably internal bleeding from the inter abdomen from

524
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: those injuries.

525
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: I couldn't quite tell. But at the you know, at

526
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: the end of the day, she was killed by this

527
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: Skeleton Army, which is you know, horrific, and the Salvation

528
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: Army today names her and celebrates her as their first martyr. Also,

529
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: some Skeleton Army member was killed by a cop I

530
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: think was cracked in the head with a baton.

531
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: That's a Skeleton Army guy, right.

532
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, a Skeleton Army guy. But this sort of thing

533
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: didn't happen much in terms of the Skeleton Army and

534
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: the police, because it seems like the police in almost

535
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: every case was anti Salvation Army, and it looks like it,

536
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: depending on where you were and what was going on

537
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: and who the particular cop was, may have even sort

538
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: of helped things along or you know, let the Skeleton

539
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: Army go and maybe aided them a little bit in

540
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: a lot of these riots.

541
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, we kind of touched on it earlier that the

542
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: establishment wanted things just as they were. They didn't like

543
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: this progressive, hostile Christian group like organizing the working classes, right,

544
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: so they were since they were already in charge, they

545
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: were basically, if not directly, informing the courts and the

546
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: police like not to intervene against the Skeleton Army. And certainly,

547
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: if anything, if you're going to arrest anybody, arrest those

548
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: rabbele rousers the Salvation Army. So they had no formal

549
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: structural protection. Essentially, the cops is if they did anything,

550
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: they usually arrested the Salvation Army members. Most of the

551
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: time they didn't do anything because the power structure in

552
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: each town was pretty much diametrically opposed to the Salvation Army.

553
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And then in that one article that you

554
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: sent from back then, it seems like a lot of

555
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: these counter protests, if you want to call them that,

556
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: or these were either brewery owners or brewery owners and

557
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: their employees. So it kind of became like a literal

558
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: war against like temperance and alcohol. It was so heavily

559
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: intertwined because these brewers were like, we don't want these

560
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: people come in here, and you know the writings on

561
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: the wall of what's going on in America, and we're

562
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: not going to have a prohibition. So the brewers and

563
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: their employees are like fighting back against these people preaching

564
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: against alcohol.

565
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again I don't want to like underestimate the

566
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: impact that these the idea that they were organizing the

567
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: working class had on scaring the upper class as well,

568
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: because at the time, if you were you know, wealthy,

569
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: if you had a title like you were in charge,

570
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: if you were working class, you were not in charge.

571
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: You could just the best you could hope for is

572
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,959
Speaker 2: that the wealthy would look out for you when they

573
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: were making laws, which probably didn't work out very much.

574
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: So that was a big part of it too. And

575
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: then also even Protestants didn't like them, because remember George

576
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: Booth was like, I don't like this church hierarchy stuff.

577
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: I'm just going to go start preaching on the coroner.

578
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: That was very much carried into the Salvation Army. So

579
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: the Protestant churches, the Methodists in particular, were like, we

580
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: don't like you. The Catholic really didn't like them because

581
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 2: there was that whole Catholic Protestant division that dated all

582
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: the way back to the sixteenth century. So basically no

583
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: one liked the Salvation Army and everyone was essentially working

584
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: against them.

585
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, depending on I mean, it depends on

586
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: kind of where you were and who was there as

587
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: to how violent this could get. If there was like

588
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: a sort of a younger, more rabble rousing preacher. A

589
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: lot of times, especially if it was a woman that

590
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: was coming in and leading the charge, things could escalate

591
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: a little more quickly. I know, there was a twenty

592
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: three year old woman and a captain in the Salvation

593
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: Army named Ada Smith, who was really enthusiastic and really

594
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: liked to get in the faces of these dudes in

595
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: the pubs and other times. You know, it was someone

596
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: who maybe wasn't quite as in your face and things

597
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: didn't go quite as sideways. Apparently if it was a

598
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: tourist town or a port town had a lot to

599
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: do with it too, right, Yeah.

600
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: For sure, because if it was a tourist town, you

601
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: don't want like the Salvation Army running around telling everybody

602
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: they're going to hell. That's not good for tourism, so

603
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: they're actually directly affecting people's livelihoods. That's one. If the

604
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: support town, there's probably a lot of drinking going on,

605
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: so the people in the town don't want to hear

606
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: that it was. If it was a like say a

607
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: country town suburb of London, it was probably a little

608
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: more genteel. I get the impression that the more rough

609
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: and tumble the populace, the more incidents of violence the

610
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: Salvation Army faced. But also I don't want to make

611
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: it sound like they weren't triggering people. They definitely were

612
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: that Captain Ata Smith. You mentioned she was in Worthing,

613
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: and Worthing was essentially ground zero for riots that took

614
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: place in the mid eighteen eighties, like straight up riots

615
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: where the people were attacking the town hall because they're

616
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: so upset about the Salvation Army being around. Like they

617
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: were provoking people. For sure, I'm not blaming them for

618
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: riots like as we'll see in a minute that they were,

619
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: but they definitely were provoking people intentionally as well.

620
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Should we take another break, Yeah,

621
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: all right, we'll take our second break, and we'll talk

622
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: about the sort of where these guys might have come

623
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: from on the Skeleton Army side to begin with.

624
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: So, skeleton Army is kind of this formalized term for

625
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: the groups of people who essentially organized to try to

626
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: beat the Salvation Army out of town, do whatever they

627
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 2: could to get rid of them, including lots and lots

628
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 2: of violence, and again trying to burn down their meeting

629
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: halls and stuff. And there's a historian named, I think

630
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: John Hare who wrote an article in nineteen eighty eight

631
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: and folklore that ed found where he basically as there's

632
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: a really high likelihood that the Skeleton Armies actually grew

633
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: out of what are called the bonfire boys or bonfire clubs,

634
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: who would celebrate the fifth of November, not the fifth

635
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: of May, but the fifth of November in the same

636
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: way that people used to celebrate Devil's Night in Detroit

637
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: by just burning down everything in sight and marching and

638
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: just causing trouble and getting super drunk.

639
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: Yes, and as a we'll probably do one on this

640
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: in full at some point, but remember, remember the fifth

641
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: of May. We're laughing because Josh said May, and we

642
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: cut it out or did we leave it in?

643
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: I think we cut it out.

644
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: I guess we'll see. The fifth of November goes back

645
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: to if anyone has ever seen the movie v for Vendetta,

646
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 1: so good with Natalie Portman. Good movie peers, Yeah, of course, no, yeah,

647
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: it was Sky Pierce right.

648
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: No, it was the weird clone guy from the Matrix him.

649
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: Oh he was, Yeah, he was the dude.

650
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: The mister Unders. Yes, yeah, what's Hugh? What's the guy's name?

651
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: In sixteen oh five, there were Catholic conspirators who tried

652
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: to blow up Parliament because that would have killed the

653
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: Protestant King James the First and hope that there would

654
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: be a Catholic king to fill that role, to fill

655
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: that power vacuum, and England would be, you know, back

656
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: to being a Catholic nation after the split from in

657
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: fifteen thirty four that you talked about earlier, that King

658
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth brought about.

659
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: Yep.

660
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: So remember remember the fifth of November. Every November fifth

661
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: there was, and I believe still is, just a lot

662
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: of sort of celebrations, big parties, big bonds. They would

663
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: light tar barrels on fire. It got pretty rowdy, and

664
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: like you said, they were called the Bonfire Clubs. And

665
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: there are historians and namely that one guy you talked about,

666
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: who basically say these guys were still around in the

667
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties, and there's a lot of

668
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: evidence that kind of shows that they were probably also like, hey,

669
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: we've got pitchforks, we've got torches, we have the same

670
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: sort of anti establishment attitude, so we'll just sort of

671
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: start doing skeleton army stuff as well.

672
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: Right. There was actually an eighteen eighty five article in

673
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: the Sussex Coast Mercury newspaper that basically said that they

674
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: were watching the Skeleton Club, the new Skeleton Club there

675
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: in Worthing that had been formed March, and they were

676
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: actually using the old bonfire club banner. Like they didn't

677
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 2: even bother to create a new one. They just basically

678
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: slapped Skeleton over Bonfire Club. Just to get the point

679
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 2: across here that like these were the exact same people essentially,

680
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: they just took their Bonfire Club thing and actually directed

681
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: it toward a purpose. It was purposeless before, it was

682
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: all celebratory rabble rousing. Now it was we're actually going

683
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 2: to use those same tactics to get the Salvation Army

684
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 2: out of town.

685
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. They the Skeleton Army would usually black their faces.

686
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: Sometimes they did wear masks, but to let each other

687
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: other know like who they were, they would wear the

688
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: color yellow somewhere a lot of times with like a

689
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: like a ribbon or some kind or a sunflower to

690
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: identify one another. And yeah, it seems like that they

691
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: were just basically the same people discuss well not you know,

692
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: kind of thinly disguised as the Skeleton Army. And these

693
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: things would just happen all over the place in England

694
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: until someone would come in read the Riot Act literally

695
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: and break it up and say, you know you have

696
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: to disperse. Now, sometimes that went okay and sometimes it didn't.

697
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Riot Act. I didn't actually know the

698
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: origin of it, did you. Yeah, Oh, you didn't know

699
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: English major, So I didn't realize that. So I'm going

700
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: to explain it to people who didn't realize it either. Okay, no,

701
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: you should. So when you read somebody the Riot Act,

702
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: you're basically like telling them that you don't like how

703
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: they're acting, and you give them a warning about if

704
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: they act that way any further, they're going to have

705
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: their iPhone taken away or something. Right that there is

706
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: actually a riot Act from seventeen fourteen, the British Riot Act.

707
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: And what you would do is if you were, you know, rioting,

708
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: if you were breaking stuff, if you were a rowdy crowd,

709
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: the army would come out and read the Riot Act

710
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: that basically said you got to stop what you're doing

711
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: and disperse or the army's going to make you disperse. Yeah,

712
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: and if you didn't disperse after reading the Riot Act,

713
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: then the army would be forced to make you disperse.

714
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: And these the skeleton armies throughout England, I think more

715
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: than once had the Riot Act read and had the

716
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: Army called out on them because they were rioting so

717
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 2: hard against the Salvation Army.

718
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: Riot Hard is a great album title for Striper, right, yeah,

719
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: maybe for the new Striper. Are they still together? Did

720
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 1: you find that out in your deep dive.

721
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 2: I don't remember where the last album was, but I'm

722
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: pretty sure it was in the two thousands, so they

723
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: might be. I'm not sure, I don't remember. Sorry.

724
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: I could see them still playing shows with like less

725
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: teased hair, but still sort of long and maybe like

726
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: a half shaven beard kind of thing.

727
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you remember when we saw D Snyder? Oh?

728
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

729
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: I can imagine that they probably look a lot like

730
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: D Snyder these days compared to how D Snyder used

731
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: to look.

732
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were on a talk show. This is back

733
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: when people used to call us for some stuff like that. Weirdly,

734
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: early on we got way more press and like invites

735
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: to be on TV than we do now. With that,

736
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: I like it now, Oh no, I totally am. I

737
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: don't want to go.

738
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: I like being put out to pasture.

739
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: Yeah I do too, But yeah, D Snyder was also

740
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: a guest on the show and we and we met

741
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: him like not in the green room, but like backstage

742
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: or something.

743
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: I would say in passing. Yeah, he was going one way.

744
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: We're like, hey, d Snyder just kind of gave us

745
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: like a heads up. If I remember correctly.

746
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: I think, and we were on first and I think

747
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: our joke at the time was that we opened up

748
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: for Twisted Sister. Yeah, this last part that we're going

749
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: to talk about, I don't fully fully understand, to be honest.

750
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: It has to do with the court system and whether

751
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: or not and peaceful assembly and whether or not you

752
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: can say, hey, it's a peaceful assembly. If you know

753
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 1: you're going there and you're going to egg on people

754
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: that will react in violence, is that still a peaceful assembly?

755
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. It ties into what I was saying earlier that

756
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 2: people used to blame the Salvation Army, including the courts,

757
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: for inciting riots just from doing their thing. So while

758
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 2: they were loud and they were singing off key and

759
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: they were in your face about how you were going

760
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: to hell, they were still under English law assembling peaceably.

761
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: They weren't breaking stuff, they weren't breaking they weren't breaking

762
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 2: any laws. They weren't hurting anybody like physically or anything

763
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: like that. So technically it was a peaceable assembly, but

764
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 2: because almost invariably in some of these towns, when they

765
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 2: showed up and did their thing, a riot would break out.

766
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: The Salvation Army was held responsible in the courts for

767
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: triggering riots, and they're like, you can't assemble anymore because

768
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: you incite riots your very presence. And finally, some appellate

769
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: court in the United Kingdom was like, that don't quite

770
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: track right. They said something like, what has happened here

771
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: is that an unlawful organization has assumed to itself the

772
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,280
Speaker 2: right to prevent the appellants and others from lawfully assembling together.

773
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: Basically saying that a man may be convicted for doing

774
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: a lawful act if he knows that his doing it

775
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: may cause another to do an unlawful act. And the

776
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 2: extent of that is that you're not responsible for the

777
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 2: act of another person. It's like, if you trigger somebody

778
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 2: they punch you in the face, they're in trouble for

779
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: punching you in the face. You're not in trouble for

780
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: triggering them. As much as you despise what the person

781
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: might be saying, and they might be saying it right

782
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: in your face, you can't hit them. That's breaking the law.

783
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: Telling somebody that they're going to hell right in their face,

784
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: it's not breaking the law. And so that actually established

785
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: precedent in the English speaking world, and I think eighteen

786
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: sixty eighteen eighty two Beatty versus Gilbanks established that the

787
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: Salvation Army had the right to peaceably assemble even if

788
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: it triggered riots. And that really kind of led to

789
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: the idea that you can peaceably assemble even if the

790
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: people don't want to hear what you have to say

791
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: and will riot. It's on the rioters, not on you,

792
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 2: the person provoking them.

793
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the question since then has been

794
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: the sort of gray area of what constitutes a peaceful assembly?

795
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is I mean, yeah, if you're like a

796
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 2: young anarchist, are you going to sue the government for

797
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: breaking up your peaceable assembly? Probably not, So you're really

798
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 2: kind of at the mercy of whatever mayor police chief

799
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,919
Speaker 2: who runs the town that you're assembling in. But there's

800
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: a law in or there's a case that's set precedent.

801
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,479
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy seven, National Socialist Party of America versus

802
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: Village of Skokie, there was a bunch of Chicago Nazis

803
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: that wanted to march in Skokie where that which had

804
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: a huge population of Jewish Holocaust survivors, and Skokey said, no,

805
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: you can't do that here in The Nazis sued them

806
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: and won. They didn't actually ever march, but they won

807
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: that case. And it is established that no matter how

808
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 2: reprehensible your views, you have a right to say them America.

809
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 2: It's part of your First Amendment rights. And that that

810
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: is what the Blues Brothers are referencing when they said

811
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 2: they hate Illinois Nazis and they drive through that bandstand

812
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 2: and make Henry Gibson and his Nazi friends jump into

813
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: the river. That's what they're talking about, is that? Yeah,

814
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 2: that case, that's pretty cool. I thought it was pretty

815
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: cool too. Are you got anything else?

816
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 1: I got nothing else? This is good.

817
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: I thought it was good too. Who was it, Corey?

818
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: That was from Corey? A great suggestion, Corey.

819
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 2: Great suggestion, Corey. And yes, this was a good one, Chuck.

820
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: Since Chuck said this was a good one, and I agreed,

821
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 2: I think it's time for listener mail.

822
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this a nice little additional nugget of

823
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: info from John. Hey, guys, I was listening to the

824
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: episode on the Franklin Expedition. Longtime listener, first time writer.

825
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: By the way, in the episode, you collaborated to make

826
00:46:55,080 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: up the pun name for a bad sailor, leadfoot mccan't swim.

827
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: I didn't remember that until he wrote it. That was

828
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 1: pretty funny, and it brought up a nugget of effect

829
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: I learned a few months ago. I'm not sure if

830
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: you were making this joke because of this that you

831
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: knew a lot of sailors back in that time couldn't swim,

832
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: But you were right. Many sailors back in the day

833
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: couldn't swim for a number of reasons. They ranged from

834
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: a lack of resources such as warm water and time

835
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: in which to learn, to the desire of not to

836
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: prolonged suffering, which might happen if you were to find

837
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: yourself overboard, like, huh, just go go down. I guess

838
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: it's pretty hardcore, pretty hardcore. Sadly, stopping a ship or

839
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: going back to save a sailor did not or could

840
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: not have happened very often, so drowning might be the

841
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: fastest and easiest way to go. Picked up this nugget

842
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: from Peter Stark's book a Storia that covered the origins

843
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 1: of Astoria, Oregon being set up as a private trading

844
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: colony by John jacob Astor in an attempt to monopolize

845
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 1: the Pacific fur trade. If you're every running low on topics,

846
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 1: this would be a great episode. But I don't expect

847
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: your low, so I plan on hearing about it in

848
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: about twenty years.

849
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you never know, You never know. Who is great.

850
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: That's from John, He says, thanks for the knowledge.

851
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you never know, John, thank you for the knowledge.

852
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: We appreciate you a big time.

853
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: That's a good one. Non swimming sailors.

854
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did not see Oregon fur trading coming into

855
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: that story, but here we are.

856
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: Yep.

857
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to be like John and get

858
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 2: in touch with us and make a suggestion for an episode,

859
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: we'd love that kind of thing. You wrap it up,

860
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: spank it on the bottom, and send it off to

861
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio.

862
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 3: Dot Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

863
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

864
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.