WEBVTT - Transnational Repression of Sikh Independence Activists 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:05.120 Also media. 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.360 Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's just James 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.360 today and I'm joined by doctor Sink. Doctor Sink's an 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.040 educator based in California, and we're talking today about the 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:19.520 recent attempted assassination of a Sikh activist and this now 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:23.640 years long tendency of India to attempt to assassinate sick 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.240 activists in the United States and in Canada and probably 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.840 not the places too. Welcome to the show, dot to Sink. 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:30.159 All right, thank you, thank you for having me. 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.120 Yeah, you're welcome. And so I think people listening to 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.040 this for the first time might not be super familiar 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.840 with the situation in India and also like what Kalistan 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:42.279 is and what that means. So I want to get 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.880 into both of those things to start with. I think 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.720 could you maybe explain Kalastan, Explain where it means. Maybe 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:52.240 people have seen this yellow and green flag or heard 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:53.800 the word, but they might not know what it means. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:55.639 So could you break that down for us? 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:56.240 Sure? Sure. 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:01.720 So Krlaistan is essentially freedom of liberation moment that starts 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:06.160 in Punjab. So it's north of India, and Punjab is 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.200 a region that is populated primarily of six, though the 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:16.679 population numbers are changing, and so Kalistan is essentially sovereignty freedom, 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.400 it's its own homeland, so it's labeled as the sick homeland. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.440 However, there will be many. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:27.720 Different ethnicities, many different people of religious backgrounds in Kadalaistan, 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:28.720 so it is. 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:29.800 An ongoing movement. 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.280 The Indian state of course, it's not in their best 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.479 interest to lose a chunk of land, and to lose 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.279 especially a prosperous chunk of land, so they're doing everything 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.000 in their power to silence those that speak about it, 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.200 to oppress the people there so that they don't have 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.319 enough willpower to fight back. So that's a very very 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:48.800 brief introduction to it. 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.040 Yeah, so let's zoom out a little bit and talk 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.480 about the history of sick people in India and then 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.520 the recent tendency with mody to to sort of define 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.440 Hinduism and Indianism as the same thing. And you can't 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.880 be one without being the other. So maybe we can 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.840 start with that history of sick people within India. We 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.520 can pick it up like I guess wherever you want. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.720 You can start in nineteen thirties, or we can start 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:11.359 a little bit later. 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:12.480 Yeah. 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.639 Well, actually, I think it's important to start even earlier 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.880 than that. The origins of Six are in the region. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.800 Our faith was started in fourteen sixty nine activity, which 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.040 is in now the Pakistan region, So that's where our 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.640 faith was started, and our people have essentially been fighting 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.720 an existential battle since the faith was formed. So different 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.560 rulers of the time, different kingdoms in that area would 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.400 attempt to kind of wipe Six out, and Six have 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.240 always been fighting back and fighting for their existence. So 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.560 a small example of this is in seventeen thirty eight 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.440 and up until the seventeen seventies, there was mass laughter 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.639 of six and we're talking thousands killed on a single 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.640 day period we referred as. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.880 The Vudine shot dot Lugata, which is. 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.600 Basically in our history, the largest population of six decimated 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.360 in a single day was in seventeen thirty eight. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:12.880 In seventeen seventies. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.520 As well, so we went from that circumstance to essentially 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:21.080 forming our own kingdom, forming our own country. In seventeen 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.000 ninety nine was formally established under Maha Dad Djid Singh, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.160 though the Six were operating independently even before that and 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:29.640 kind of. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:30.919 Governing their own regions. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.560 But in seventeen ninety nine, the Sick Confederacy kind of 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.760 joined and became what is now known as the region 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:38.520 of Punjab. 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.240 So the British came to colonize. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.160 They colonized India relatively quickly after arriving, and then when 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.040 they approached the Sikh Kingdom, not only could they not 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.920 penetrate it, they had to sign a treaty with Mahaja 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.040 d Jid Singh, who was the ruler of Punjab at 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.440 the time, and saying that we won't cross to the 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:57.240 side of this river and you don't cross to the 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.880 sub So they essentially signed a treaty saying we can coexist, 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.360 but we won't come to your side because they feared 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.520 the repercussions of what that would lead to. And then slowly, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.080 as they have with many empires, they have kind of infiltrated. 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:19.120 They paid folks, they sign traders, and they broke down 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:23.120 the annexed Punjab in eighteen forty nine. So we have 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.039 a period of colonization from eighteen forty nine officially till 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:31.000 nineteen forty seven. And in nineteen forty seven the Radcliffe 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.800 Line is drawn. That is where Pakistan and now what 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.320 we see as Pakistan and now India is what we 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.400 see as India, though before it was all together and 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.960 a large region of it was Punjab. When nineteen forty 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.800 seven what Indian would refer to as independence, though it 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:49.400 was actually a transfer of power. 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.800 The gandhis of the time are kind of credited with. 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.080 The independence movement, but they were working with the British 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.880 for decades before that. They kind of knew that they 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.400 would receive the reins once the British left the region, 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.279 so truly it wasn't independence movement, it was a transfer 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:08.880 of power from the British to them. So in nineteen 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.320 forty seven, by creating kind of relationships through some false promises, 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.720 the Hindu leaders of the time essentially guaranteed six that 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.800 you guys know how to fight for your rights if 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.560 we were ever to infringe upon them. You guys are 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:25.920 allowed to be in the Punjab region, it's essentially going 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:26.760 to be autonomous. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.520 So after independence, essentially. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:34.040 They immediately renagged on all of their previous assurances and 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.560 six have essentially kind of been fighting an independence movement 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.039 since nineteen forty seven. They were not allowed to speak 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.320 their language. There was a Punjabi suba movement in nineteen 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.640 fifty five where they even had to fight for their 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.080 native language to be able to speak their native language 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:56.800 in their region. And so now moving many iterations later, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.880 what we see is Modi kind of the I wouldn't 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.200 say final form because we haven't lived to the end yet, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:08.280 but he is the latest iteration of Hindu nationalism, of 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:13.240 what extremism looks like. So he has now taken the 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.480 work of the gandhis and all of the prime ministers 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.920 of India and kind of the Indian deep state agenda 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.400 and now transformed it to saying that we want to 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.360 be a nation of one language, of one religion, of 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.000 one kind of people, and there's really no space for 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.640 minorities in there, though they won't say it openly because 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.480 they want to carry the moniker of the world's biggest democracy. 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.640 They are not a secular nation. And under Modi, we've 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.760 seen massacres. We've seen you very genocidal violence, which he 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.960 himself allowed and which he was not even allowed to 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:51.320 go into many Western countries because they held him accountable 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.880 and responsible for leading the massacre of Muslims in two 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:56.839 thousand and two of a job. But once he became 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.120 prime minister, they kind of backed away from that and 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:05.360 chose financial relationships. So today we are in a place 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.520 where six being less than two percent of the population 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:13.680 in India are continuing their struggle for liberation, and the 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.600 Indian state kind of consistent with their agenda since nineteen 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.560 forty seven, doesn't have room for that difference, doesn't have 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.240 room not only to give them their rights, but liberation entirely. 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.120 That's the next step beyond that. So that's where we 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:28.720 are today. 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.280 Yeah, there's a significant sick community, especially on the west 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.640 coast of the USA, and I've met probably hundreds of 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.920 sick people in the last year crossing the border for 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.440 the reasons you've just outlined and others of course deciding 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.560 they nearly all coming from India, right, and Punjab, and 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.280 they have told me some really terrible stories, right, some 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.640 really upsetting things. I've heard from lots of other people. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.840 It's not unique to them, but there's a significant sick 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.960 population on the west coast of the US. So can 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.440 you explain I know that sick people here have been 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.120 organizing for Kalustan for some time. There was even like 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.960 a vote recently ventstand correctly, So can you explain, like 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:12.600 that history of the sick dy aspirin how they've been 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.800 really important in getting the word out and advocating. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.520 First, yeah, I'm glad we touched on migration. Actually, mass 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.840 migration out of Punjab is not a natural phenomenon. It 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.280 is the outcome of very genocidal violence yea. And further 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:32.280 than that, it's the continued violence and oppression through different ways. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.199 So one example is there's a strong drug nexus in 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.320 that area and anyone who is distributing drugs is protected 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.120 by the Indian state, whether through bribery, whether through their 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.800 agenda in general of keeping Punjab kind of addicted and 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.920 away from liberation, So that is one. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:51.520 Aspect of it. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.080 Further, Bungjob for the listeners, Bunge ob means the land 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.560 of five rivers. Bunge means five and ob means water, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.679 so its name is literally created on river water and 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.400 the Indian state has now taken those river waters diverted 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:12.240 them to different states of India, and Punjab gets no 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:16.079 royalty for those as opposed to any other state of India. 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.000 If they have a natural resource, they get to sell 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.599 it and their state gets the benefit of that. So 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.600 Punjab at this point has been giving trillions of gallons 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.920 of water to different states for free, and Punjab is 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.760 there's different numbers out there, but sixty to sixty five 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:37.040 percent and agrarian society, so everyone is essentially farming. And 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.120 what the farmers of Punjab are being forced to do 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:45.400 is dig underground for water, even though they have natural 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.600 river water that should be going through Punjab itself, which 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:52.520 they can redistribute. So there's a huge farmer suicide problem 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.679 happening in Punjab because they are unable to get out 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.559 of debt. They are viewing farming as an unprofitable kind 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.199 of a debt and business as opposed to farming and 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.640 many other places, so it's very profitable. They're sick farmers 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.160 in California who are multi multimillionaires, so it's not an 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:10.440 unprofitable business. 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.400 However, the state has made it that way. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:17.040 Understanding that if we can cripple farming their water supply 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.920 and get their next generation addicted to drugs, then they'll 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:21.560 be forced. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.520 So the mass migration we see is not natural. It 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:27.360 is the outcome of that. 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.480 And I'm sorry, I think I forgot the second part 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.559 of your question, something about six in the Western. 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:34.719 Yeah, no, that's Okay, there's a really good explanation. It's 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.360 really important. I think we should just take a little 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:48.160 advertising break here, all right, we're back. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:48.520 Yeah. 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.400 So the second part I wanted to ask about was 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:55.439 the importance of this diaspora community in organizing FA Kalistan. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.240 Right because in addition to all these Indian government policies 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.080 that you've outlined that are having these impacts in Punjab, 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.160 and like we shouldn't discount the climate change is also 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.479 having impacts there right, absolutely across the whole engeged subcontinent. 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.079 But in addition to that, right, there's a very powerful 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.240 and developed Khalistan movement in the United States and in 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.400 Canada that has been advocating for the issue and raising 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.960 i think awareness, and that's what's been targeted now, right. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.360 Yeah, absolutely, because they understand that if you say that 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.719 word Carlostan with in Punjab, the police is working with them, 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.360 the judicial system is working with them, Every single facet 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:40.360 of any organizational institution is working for them. So, I 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.839 mean there's been many people that do mention it and 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:45.199 they end up dead, they end up in jails, They 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.120 you know, are silenced in one way or another. So 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.520 despite that, though, still many more folks that believe in 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.520 Colistan in Punjab than there are anywhere else in the world, 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.559 and they are willing to say it openly despite the 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.400 consequence of that, which is essentially jail or death. 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:08.880 In the millions. So what happens is when six are 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.760 a forced to migrate out or migrate out for any reason. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.880 They still hold those aspirations with them. They still remember 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.319 the plight of their people in Pajab. So they have 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.880 freedom of speech, which is what you should have in democracies, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.559 which they don't have in India. So when they have 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.480 freedom of speech, they express those aspirations to the point where. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.640 There are people being killed all over the world. 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.400 We named Canada and the US, but there was an 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.760 activist poisoned in the UK just last year. There's been 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.160 folks killed in Pakistan, which is on the other side 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.559 of the border for India. And they tried to assassinate 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.920 sick in New York and as recently as a few 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:51.839 days ago, they tried to assassinate us. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:52.760 Sick here in California. 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.439 So, I mean, the movement is very much alive and 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.920 it's on the up, and I think the Indian state 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:04.280 understands this. But they're having a tough time kind of 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:06.960 wrapping their head around how to. 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.679 Silence folks outside of their borders. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.559 That's really where we are because within their borders it's 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:14.640 full on suppression. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.920 You can't say it. Folks within Pujab. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.040 When they leave Punjab and they come to different countries, 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.960 their eyes kind of finally open as to why they 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.800 were in the conditions they were in. It's almost like 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.319 when you're in the middle of a storm. You don't 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.160 know who you're in a storm, but when looking on 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.480 the outside in you're seeing, hey, this is a very 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.480 intentional and systematic genocide that is happening against our people. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.000 So that is one aspect of it. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.520 But it's becoming more organized, and you know, there's a referendum, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:51.000 there's intellectuals, there's conferences happening, there's grats roots organization and 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.359 so ficks have the concept. 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.800 Called Chardvikala and Chaddikaala. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.719 Is essentially ever rising spirits, is that no matter that 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.520 higher conditions that you may be under, you still keep 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:08.040 the hope for sovereignty and liberation alive. And we've seen 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.800 that in our history where our population due to the 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.559 oppression and the massacres dwindled down to the hundreds, and 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.680 they were living in jungles, and even then they would 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:23.720 exit the jungles fight work to free those being captured 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.800 by the muguls at the time, or the people in 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.160 the region, and they would die fighting oftentimes. And so 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.320 now we're in a position where there's millions of us. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.080 We have no excuse. We keep the aspiration for sovereignty alive, 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.560 and we see it kind of thriving in places where 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:43.840 we're allowed to express ourselves. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.640 Yeah, so I think we should talk about this kind 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.320 of transnational repression. It's not by any means unique Twindia. 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.760 I mean, famously Russia loves to do this too, right, 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.000 But let's talk about some of these incidents. There was 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.920 a foiled assassination attempt in November of last year, right 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.360 that the YAH arrested in India national for There was 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:08.280 a successful assassination in Canada, and an attempted assassination just 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.680 this week, as you say, in northern California. 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.600 Yeah, I mean, transnational repression is not a new phenomenon. 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.640 But what we'd like to do is actually have it 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.560 addressed for what it is. Why is it that the 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:27.320 American public understands or the Western public understands that Russia doesn't, 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.200 but when it comes to India, it's almost seen as 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.640 this kind of yoga chai te, peace loving place, where 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.560 in reality, anyone from there and anyone that's been on 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.080 the other end of kind of oppression understands what India 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.120 truly is. So I think what we'd like to do 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:50.880 is I don't think it's unreasonable. This is a nation 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:55.040 that is very openly going on to other sovereign nations 0:15:55.200 --> 0:16:00.840 land and targeting their citizens of any religious Backrondah. So 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.960 I think it's something that these governments should be taking seriously. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.480 And the fact that it continues to happen, I think 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.720 is a reflection of how not seriously it's being taken. 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.120 If it was, you know, if there's you know, some 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:15.119 sort of public. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.240 Statements, sanctions, if there was you know, a full on 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.080 effort to say that this is a violation of our sovereignty, yeah, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.960 it would perhaps slow down, but it's continuing, and it's 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:30.480 continuing rapidly where we're seeing gunshots and you know, even 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.360 though Indian nationals are being extra added to the states, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.640 it's not stopping. So I think more aggressive action is needed. 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:39.920 And the fact that it keeps happening. Is is just 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.440 a reflection of how lacks these governments have been as 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.560 a result of these actions. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.760 Yeah, you don't see it referred to in the terms 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.840 of transnational oppression or really like by the US government 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.640 at least as this this consolidated program. It seems to 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.600 be seen as like these incidents where then you know, 0:16:57.720 --> 0:16:59.480 joining the dots and being like, get this, this is 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.760 an attempt at repression, you know, murder of US citizens 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.119 in me that these two cases, right, I know this 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.600 just happened with other diaspora communities. Sometimes the like DJ 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:11.840 or someone within that has reached out to people in 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.560 the community, especially people who are prominent and been like, 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.000 there is a legitimate risk of someone trying to kill you. 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.120 Has that happened within the sick community? 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:22.359 Oh yeah, absolutely. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:27.640 There's been multiple folks warned here in California, in Canada, 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.679 all over the US that you know. 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:32.840 There is legitimate threats to your life. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.880 Though it's a problem because they cannot give you any 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.399 more information than that. So you ask, you know, where's 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.560 the threat from. Let say, we can disclose that it's 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:48.960 it's confidential. So obviously six who advocate for sovereignty and 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.600 freedom of their people that can Punjab know where where 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.240 the threat is from. Yeah, And I think the underlying 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:59.240 understanding within the community is that Western countries understand it 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.960 as well. They're essentially waiting for when it is politically 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:08.760 you know, acceptable, when it is politically beneficial for them 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.399 to actually say something about it. And I think we 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:14.320 are an under no illusions that you know that these 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:15.880 guys are going to speak for us for the sake 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.000 of justice, that they're going to you know, express our 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.920 perspective and condemn these nations based on the protection of six. 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.320 We know our liberation is going to be the result 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.440 of our efforts. But I think from a lobbying perspective, 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:36.920 from an expression perspective, I think it is not unreasonable 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:37.639 of us to. 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.800 Expect that of governments where we are citizens. Yeah. 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.920 Like it's kind of the trade that you make r 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:44.879 in theory, Like you give up a lot of freedom 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.520 and in turn you get safety in and you're giving 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.640 up one and not getting the other right now, right 0:18:49.960 --> 0:19:03.439 right exactly. So, Like there have been various movements for Kaliftan, 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.200 I think we should just mention that, like in the 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:10.760 nineteen eighties, more like confrontational attempts at Kalistan like independence 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.840 were met with collective punishment by the Indian state and 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.159 non Sik people right within India. 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:17.240 Yeah. 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.160 So going dating back to the eighties, actually up until 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.320 eighty four, there was no united Movement for independence something 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.440 else he called up Prinda on It was kind of 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.639 the face of the thick rights movement. But in the 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.080 document that they had proposed to the government, the an 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:38.200 unput CYB resolution, it wasn't a proposition for exclusively six 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.240 And I think that's an important point to continue to mention, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.720 is that the way the Indian state portrays Kalistan is 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:50.200 anti Hindu, and I think they understand that to get 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.359 the public support, we need to portray movements or anything 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.000 really that's not in our interest as anti Hindu. We 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.320 need to make them feel threatened. Yeah, and if we 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.159 can do that, there will be support for us to 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.840 engage in these collective punishments. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.880 So in the eighties and nineties, actually we call. 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.560 It the Decade of Disappearances, is where the Indian government 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:16.560 went from village to village disappearing six hundreds of thousands. 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.840 Essentially, our last generation was wiped out by the Indian state. 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:21.639 And you know, they disposed of. 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:26.320 Their bodies and crematories throw them in rivers, and you know, 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.280 like we basically say that there's a sixth river of 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.120 blood in Bujab because that is just how many young 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.000 men were killed from eighty five to. 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:40.280 Nineteen ninety five. So there was an armed resistance against this. 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.400 I mean they were seeing their sisters taken into police 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.479 stations and all kinds of atrocities committed against them. They 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.000 were seeing their brothers disappeared, you know, their family members. 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:56.560 So at some point it is better to give up 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.240 your life than to live in these circumstances. And so 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.280 that is the brink that they were pushed to, and 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.600 so we lean on their example, though the movement does 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.160 not quite exactly at that same place today, we lean 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:14.439 on their example in that saying, these people were. 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:16.919 Willing to give up their lives for this. 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.520 Cause, and us sitting in comfort, even if it's you know, 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:26.639 temporary safety, we have a responsibility to move this movement forward. 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:31.320 And with these new assassinations, that's another important thing to mention. 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:38.840 We've saw murders of essentially the biggest Pujabi pops, Sadhu 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.720 Musah in history. I mean, this guy was in Hollywood, 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.760 he was, he was everywhere, and when he started talking 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:50.760 about Kadistan, when he started making music regarding Pajab's rights, 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:55.920 he was assassinated. And we're seeing a new wave of 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:00.520 Indian oppression. And for the first time now people that thought, 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.320 oh the eighties and nineties, you know, you guys could 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:05.639 be making something up. Maybe the Indian government is right, 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:07.800 you guys can be making up. Now they're seeing these 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.399 assassinations happen in front of their eyes, and they're making 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:13.800 the judgment call as to who is in the right 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.080 and who is in And I think that's another reason 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.840 that the Kalistan movement continues to gain kind of solidarity 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:22.880 within the six all over the world. 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.280 Yeah. Sure, Like if if a government is trying to 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.399 assassinate people to just essentially saying something it disagrees with it, 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.080 it's not hard to see like who's in the wrong exactly. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:36.520 So I wonder, like, obviously there's a genuine threat to 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.560 Sik communities here that continues to be a threat to 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:44.200