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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an all day brow.

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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to episode A hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: one thirty one three zero of The Hunting Collective. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, is that a big number? Nope? No, that's

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Speaker 1: nothing to celebrate, nothing to celebrate. We shouldn't be celebrating.

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Speaker 1: In fact, this is a somber occasion because there's nothing

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Speaker 1: to celebrate. Um. Joe Fernado, Hello, sir, how are you doing? Man?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great? How are you? Man? How's your weekend?

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Speaker 1: It was good? What did you do? What did you do? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Went and shot my bow at the bridge of Bowman

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Speaker 1: bow shoot shot? Actually really well, you did? You did

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Speaker 1: really well? It's really really happy. Was excited about? Okay,

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Speaker 1: now total archery Challenge coming up. Yeah, I'm probably gonna

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Speaker 1: win it. That's how good I shot. Yeah. Now, there's

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Speaker 1: definitely winners and losers, and I'm usually a loser at

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Speaker 1: those shows. Phil T Engineer, Hi, hey, buddy, did not

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Speaker 1: shoot any bows this weekend? What did you do? I

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Speaker 1: played video games and mode the one? No? Uh oh wait, yep,

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Speaker 1: yes I did see yes, unbubelievable. But this is eventually

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Speaker 1: we're just gonna take hunting out of the podcast altogether.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna bet it's like, what are we even talking

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Speaker 1: about we're even talking about hunting anymore? Straight so far

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Speaker 1: from the core, but hey, that's what we do here

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Speaker 1: at th HC. We got an interesting program today. I'm

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Speaker 1: excited though, because I think this is. Over the last

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Speaker 1: so roughly six days, we've got the most emails ever,

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Speaker 1: which is saying something that even beat Barry Kay Gilbert's appearance,

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Speaker 1: which generated scores of emails, many many emails. But this,

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Speaker 1: this last I don't know if it's it's just a smattering,

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Speaker 1: it's not all in one thing. Everybody just seems to

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Speaker 1: be thinking and thoughtful right now and right and in

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Speaker 1: and so we're gonna make this episode about you guys.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's thoughtful. Not everybody, but most people that email in

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Speaker 1: are thoughtful. The social media thumbs get the flying off

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Speaker 1: off in a rodging direction. But Phil, we're gonna make

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Speaker 1: this about the emailers because we got a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna run through as many of these as

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Speaker 1: we can before we get to Diana Rodgers and Rob Wolfe,

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Speaker 1: who are the authors and uh makers of the film

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Speaker 1: Sacred Cat which is also a book, and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about that here in a minute. But we got a

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Speaker 1: lot of emails. Are you ready, Phil, Yes, let's hear him.

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Speaker 1: Are you ready? I said, yes, Well, geez, he's playing

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Speaker 1: those violent video games. A lot of this is like

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Speaker 1: I will read a few of these that are kind

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Speaker 1: of self congratulatory only because the people writing them are

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Speaker 1: saying how great we are. Um, and then other others

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Speaker 1: will question major issues in society and our culture. I

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Speaker 1: want to start with my favorite one. I don't have Chad.

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Speaker 1: I think Chad's being serious here, and UM, all the

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Speaker 1: all the better for Chad, And we're gonna it seems

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Speaker 1: like a joke, but we're gonna treat it like he's

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Speaker 1: he's he's being serious. He said, Hey, Ben, I would

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Speaker 1: like to start by saying, in regards to your last episode,

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Speaker 1: you describe your politics to be left and right depending

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Speaker 1: on what the issue is. Typically, I don't like when

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Speaker 1: politics politics get brought up in most media content. Do

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Speaker 1: you feel like that, Phil? You agree with that? Well,

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Speaker 1: it depends on what what I'm showing up for. If

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Speaker 1: I'm showing up for a hunting podcast, then I usually

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear about I've changed this. Here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: If it if you're gotta look at it through the

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Speaker 1: lens of the show. If like the politics pertained the

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Speaker 1: you know, the hunting collective, then share your politics. But

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Speaker 1: I don't want to hear anything about your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: the infrastructure budget because that has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: tell him film now. This is what Chad said. A

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Speaker 1: typically he's not into it, but I like what you

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Speaker 1: had to say. You mean me all right with your

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Speaker 1: own politics. What you brought up in that discussion was

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Speaker 1: the The guy who brought this up was an al

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Speaker 1: Burden who considered himself to be left center minded. When

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Speaker 1: I heard that, I was like, ah, there are more

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Speaker 1: like me. So Chat apparently is a left center minded Alberton,

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Speaker 1: which is important for what you'll hear next. He goes

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Speaker 1: on about his his life. He's an adult onset hunter.

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Speaker 1: He's fairly new to it. He's hunting for about seven

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Speaker 1: years now, and he's been searching for a good hunting

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Speaker 1: partner with a similar mindset as his wife and himself,

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Speaker 1: who are left leaning. I was wondering if you could

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Speaker 1: help me out. An extended invitation for left minded Alburton's

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Speaker 1: who are looking for a possible partner. I don't want

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Speaker 1: my email given out to the public, but I gotta

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Speaker 1: ask of you to be a mediator slash hunting partner matchmaker. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: I know that may be asking a lot of you,

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Speaker 1: as you're busy guy, but I would appreciate any help

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Speaker 1: as I feel it's easier to find a wife than

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Speaker 1: a hunting partner. If you can't or don't want you,

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Speaker 1: I understand, but I would like to ask if you

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Speaker 1: can mention this and if someone is in the same

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Speaker 1: situation as I am. I can be found on Liberal

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Speaker 1: Hunter of North America Facebook page. If you like, I

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Speaker 1: could do a little write up on what and how

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Speaker 1: I like to hunt and what I'm looking for. That's

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Speaker 1: a Facebook page. Thanks for your time and consideration. It's

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Speaker 1: like it's like the Rule thirty four. Joe. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's if something exists, there's a porn version of it.

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Speaker 1: If something exists, there's a Facebook fan page as well.

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Speaker 1: So Joe, please pull that up. Jamie, please pull that up,

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Speaker 1: Google it or whatever. Phil Well, I feel I feel one.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I have an obligation to Chad to

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Speaker 1: help him his his the title of his podcast or

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Speaker 1: as email, is swimming alone at sea. He feels that

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Speaker 1: this is very sad. But this guy, and let me

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, I feel a drip. I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you for for for helping him out. I

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Speaker 1: think this is good because coming from someone who's definitely uh,

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Speaker 1: probably one of the more left leaning people that works

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Speaker 1: for this company, and probably someone who never would have

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Speaker 1: been interested in hunting at all if I didn't get

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Speaker 1: a job here, I completely understand why it would be

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Speaker 1: tough for you. Know, it's it's it seems kind of

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Speaker 1: alienating sometimes even if that is not you, son of

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Speaker 1: a bitch. Listen, Chad, I know sometimes it's lonely out there.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes you feel like you're swimming alone.

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Speaker 1: Let's see, So you create a Facebook page called Liberal

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Speaker 1: Hunters of North America with a picture of a sad

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Speaker 1: looking dog on it. How many people have joined his group? Joe,

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Speaker 1: there's no way to know members of the Liberal Hunters

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Speaker 1: of North America. Chad. I hope you find a connection,

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Speaker 1: and I hope some other liberal Justin Trudeau voting anti

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Speaker 1: gun son of a bitch, takes you hunting. And see

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Speaker 1: Chad Ben's I want to tell you that I feel you,

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Speaker 1: and I hope someone finds you a match made, a

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Speaker 1: match made in heaven. So Chad, listen, in all seriousness,

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Speaker 1: I hope you find somebody go hunt with bud Um.

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Speaker 1: I hope you find a mentor a and and somebody

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Speaker 1: up there in the great land of Canadia find you

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Speaker 1: as entertaining as I do. Anything anything else filed you

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Speaker 1: want to close out out because I I really did

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Speaker 1: that if I lived in Alberta, I would be your

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Speaker 1: hunting partner. The thing is he would have to teach

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Speaker 1: me everything that it would be the option. We address

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Speaker 1: the fact that he said it was easier to find

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Speaker 1: a wife than a hunting partner would. Would you, Guys,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Me and Joego Hunt were both He's

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Speaker 1: getting married, I'm married. I mean that's uh, I know,

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Speaker 1: that's like really sad at me because like, here's I

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Speaker 1: could find a hunting partner like that. Maybe it's hard,

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's it's maybe he's way too liberal. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: can bring him back a little bit, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's because of people like you who look at him

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Speaker 1: and just call him an anti gun Trudeau, anti liberal chat.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's why it's hard from a hunting partner. It's

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Speaker 1: just a it was just a joke, Phil You can't

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Speaker 1: joke now, Ben, you can't joke about you can't joke chat.

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Speaker 1: I Simon Tasty want to make fun of you and

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Speaker 1: help you get hunting partner. Is that okay? I think

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Speaker 1: it should be okay. I think that's fine. Um, moving on,

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Speaker 1: If you're gonna go hunt with Chad, email and email

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Speaker 1: and if you want to go up, let's do a

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Speaker 1: little bit better than just giving that Facebook page that's

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Speaker 1: seventy one. If you want to go home with chat

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Speaker 1: it seems like a nice guy, well meaning, I just

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Speaker 1: want somebody that thinks the way that he does to

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Speaker 1: go hunting with Email us at THHC at the Meteor

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Speaker 1: dot com and we'll hook you guys up. And that's

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Speaker 1: that's very serious. We're all about new hunters are three

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Speaker 1: and whatnot. Um, But moving on, I felt I feel

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Speaker 1: should I take that back? Was that too mean? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: It's fine, okay, thanks Philip, Chad and you know, change

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Speaker 1: his ways, changes ways, get him on the rat side

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Speaker 1: of it. Anyhow, dear Ben, I feel you on the

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Speaker 1: yoga thing. I would even go so far as to

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Speaker 1: say it is critical to hunting. I swear it makes

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Speaker 1: it easier to sit still for long periods of time,

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Speaker 1: shoot from awkward positions and endure boredom slash being uncomfortable. Sincerely,

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Speaker 1: Chris Tomaso. Thank you, Chris, thanks for affirming my yoga.

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Speaker 1: I've stopped doing the yoga though that didn't last long.

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Speaker 1: Well four days in a row. Wow. You know, like Joe,

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Speaker 1: we hunted bears last week, and did my hips seem

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Speaker 1: like they were like real fluid and working well? Do

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Speaker 1: you until about the end of the hike when you

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Speaker 1: were saying in your hips are gonna that's true? I

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Speaker 1: did say that, didn't I I was sore the next day.

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Speaker 1: I should go back to the yoga. All right, back

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Speaker 1: on the train. I'm back on the yoga train. But

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Speaker 1: thank you, Chris. Hopefully maybe we can start some sort

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Speaker 1: of like yoga liberal hunting retreat faceboear, Facebook or Facebook page.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to do it in person. I feel like

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Speaker 1: that's way more impactful. So Doe do yoga in the

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Speaker 1: evenings and then paying in the mornings, and we'll have

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Speaker 1: like focus groups on liberal ideas in the afternoons. People

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Speaker 1: still do that. It's a good thing. Focus groups came.

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Speaker 1: Moving on to the next email, This is all about you, guys.

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Speaker 1: This comes from our favorite buddy, Sergeant Mike Peterson. Um

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Speaker 1: he says, I just want to reach out and let

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Speaker 1: y'all know how much I appreciate your show and your

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Speaker 1: general outlook. I've seen some negative comments towards you guys

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Speaker 1: during some of the recent unrest. Have you seen any

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Speaker 1: negative comments abouts? I don't look at anything pertaining to

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Speaker 1: this show. I haven't seen anything. I show up and

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Speaker 1: I and I try to support you, and I don't

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Speaker 1: even see Phil any other time than in this room.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we sat on the cooler next to each

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Speaker 1: other at a cow's house and it was kind of awkward.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, weird, what about we're not recording our conversation,

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Speaker 1: weird man. Anyhow, I haven't seen Joe. Have you seen

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Speaker 1: negative commons? Yeah? I get the email. Oh anyway, back

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Speaker 1: to back to Sergeant Mike. Uh he says, I want

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Speaker 1: you to know that many of us appreciate enjoy what

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Speaker 1: you do. I especially wanted to say thank you for

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Speaker 1: the entertainment. In the last two weeks. While assisting MPD

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Speaker 1: with rioters, riots, looters, and peaceful protesters. This was a

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Speaker 1: wild experience, coming into contact with hundreds or thousands of

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Speaker 1: people with COVID nipping at our heels. It has been

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Speaker 1: a surreal year for him. Last year this time, I

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Speaker 1: was doing missions in Afghanistan, and I would never have

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Speaker 1: believed that a few months later I would be in

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Speaker 1: the same gear, with the same weapon, working here in

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Speaker 1: the States, especially in my own commune, on the same

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Speaker 1: streets I take my wife out to dinner on or

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Speaker 1: go to the Sunday farmers market. However, even during these

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Speaker 1: uncertain times, I thought I would share some positivity. I

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Speaker 1: just finished ten days of assisting law enforcement in their

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Speaker 1: jobs of protecting the rights of peaceful protesters as well

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Speaker 1: as the rights of small business owners. And although there

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Speaker 1: were some bad apples, like a dude trying to light

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Speaker 1: a veterans museum on fire, it seems like a pretty

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Speaker 1: bad apple. Interactions we had with protesters and citizens were positive,

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Speaker 1: sometimes wary, but once everyone acknowledged that the person on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the issue was just that a person,

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Speaker 1: that person with hopes and dreams and a desire to

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Speaker 1: better the world around them, everything was great. Interactions and

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Speaker 1: experiences over those last ten days. Give me personally, personally,

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Speaker 1: give me hope that not only we can be constructive,

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Speaker 1: but a dialogue can happen, but more importantly, we can

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Speaker 1: find real solutions to the problems this country faces. Hope

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Speaker 1: this gives you some hope, and hopefully my COVID test

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Speaker 1: comes back negative. Sort Sergean Peterson, there's a for you.

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Speaker 1: It's all Sergeant Peterson. Is he National Guard? Is there

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Speaker 1: any backstory there? I'll have to have to ask. It

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Speaker 1: kind of seems like it he said they were supporting police. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that would that would make sense. He didn't say in

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Speaker 1: his his note, I can I can email him and

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Speaker 1: ask him. He sounded like you knew him pretty well.

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Speaker 1: He's written in before. I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly what he what his role was in this um.

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Speaker 1: I know he was, he served. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: his current role is, so we can ask him. But

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Speaker 1: it sounds like he's a National guardsman. It sounds to me, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I would assume, not that mass. Does that

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Speaker 1: make you feel fil It makes you feel good, helpful? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that means a lot better than a lot of the

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Speaker 1: stuff we've been hearing lately. Yeah, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: the way I look at it, like I imagine most

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Speaker 1: folks experiences is like Mike's. He's just that's not what

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Speaker 1: the news and what the news media likes to show us,

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Speaker 1: because that's not quite as compelling as some of the

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Speaker 1: other stuff. But I imagine that's my experience. My interactions

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Speaker 1: are positive, um, even in in times of turmoil. And

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Speaker 1: so I don't know if that's an outlook in life

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Speaker 1: thing or just that's just really how it is, and

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Speaker 1: it just depends on how you shape your world view

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Speaker 1: around it. But thank you Mike for your service in

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Speaker 1: every way, and thanks for the note man, very much appreciated.

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Speaker 1: Moving on to the next one. What do we got here? Next?

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Speaker 1: We got our buddy DJs or now DJs or is

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Speaker 1: a big a, big time advocate for public lands. He's

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Speaker 1: big into b h A. In fact, last year he

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Speaker 1: was doing the Hike to Hunt challenge, which is a

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Speaker 1: challenge that b h A does. Worry if you can,

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Speaker 1: the more miles you do, the more money you can

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Speaker 1: raise for public lands. Offered to get a back tattoo

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Speaker 1: if he was if he won the like to Hunt

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Speaker 1: challenge like a tramp stamp. Did he win? He didn't win.

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Speaker 1: Like I helped him promoted, I wanted him to win,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think he wont and thus does not

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Speaker 1: have a back tattoo. It's unfortunate. I think everybody back tattoo.

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Speaker 1: That is fortunate. Now in terms of like reading the

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Speaker 1: cod I don't read the comments, but I do read

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Speaker 1: our emails, and most the emails we got about last

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Speaker 1: week's episode with Matt Best and across the board. I

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Speaker 1: will say love Charles Rodney, love what he had to say.

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Speaker 1: That's been that way and since we've had him on

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Speaker 1: the show. But um, not everybody was was super happy

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Speaker 1: with what Matt Best I had to say. In particular, again,

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Speaker 1: fifteen people liked it, one person didn't. But I think

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Speaker 1: DJ is a well spoken dude, um and he had

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Speaker 1: something to say. So I'm gonna play his his voicemail

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Speaker 1: that one will react to it a little bit. For

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Speaker 1: for DJ, Thanks for the coffee mug Bud DJ's are here.

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Speaker 1: A couple of thoughts on episode one with the man

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Speaker 1: Charles Rodney, Crispy and Matt Best. I love Charles Rodney's

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Speaker 1: perspective on everything, but onto the Matt Best Crispy Conversation,

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Speaker 1: Matt said something that kind of struck me talking about

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Speaker 1: the uh, the fact that systemic races him and white

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Speaker 1: privilege kind of doesn't exist, or shrugging off the fact

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Speaker 1: that it's there, And I think that he really missed

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Speaker 1: the market. I appreciate the dude's opinion, and it's his opinion,

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Speaker 1: but I think you need to have a counter opinion

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Speaker 1: to that, because, in my opinion, uh, systemic racism and

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Speaker 1: white privileges is totally real. And I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: you and I have to feel guilty about being white.

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Speaker 1: We didn't like, we didn't choose to grow up with

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Speaker 1: the privileges that we got, but we damn sure got

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Speaker 1: some privileges that a lot of black folks don't get. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So my challenge to you is to have Killer Mike

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Speaker 1: from Run the Jewels on the podcast and talked to

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Speaker 1: Killer Mike about his views on the Second Amendment, which

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Speaker 1: he supports, and then talk to him about systemic racism

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Speaker 1: and offer him a chance to counter what Matt said

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Speaker 1: about the whole white privileged thing not really existing, because

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Speaker 1: it damn sure does and it us in the military

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Speaker 1: as a as a veteran. Believe you me, man. I

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Speaker 1: was stationed in the South, and racism is real in

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Speaker 1: the South, and there is some hold ons in the

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Speaker 1: military um on on that whole white privileged thing. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I had it. I had it better, and

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Speaker 1: I had different opportunities than other folks did. And my

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Speaker 1: best friend on the boat was from Watts, California. You

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Speaker 1: couldn't pick a more obtuse couple to pall around on

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Speaker 1: a submarine than a Midwest punk rock kid and a

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Speaker 1: dude from Watts who had really no other options besides

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Speaker 1: going to jail or going into the Navy. And we

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Speaker 1: were best buds in the engine room. We fixed everything

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Speaker 1: on that fucking submarine together, and after every watch, we

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Speaker 1: lifted weights together. And the only argument we ever got

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Speaker 1: in was if we were listening to West Coast hip

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Speaker 1: hop or Midwest punk rock. So that's my challenge to you,

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Speaker 1: killer Mike, And thanks again for the coffee bug, Love you,

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Speaker 1: but bye, all right, d J. Well, listen, man, I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you sending that, in appreciate your thoughts. I think

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Speaker 1: there's there, you know, like many things with this, there's

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Speaker 1: there's some duality happening here from listening to Mat. I

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Speaker 1: haven't listened back to the Matt best Um podcast since

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Speaker 1: we recorded it, but I will say that I felt

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Speaker 1: like his message was more toward positivity and that anybody

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Speaker 1: can kind of change their situation. I think Crispy definitely

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Speaker 1: is a good and Charles Rown he's also good examples

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Speaker 1: of that. So I took that's what I took away.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you went up to Matt and said, hey, Matt,

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Speaker 1: does white privilege exist? He would say absolutely, you know,

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Speaker 1: categorically no it does not. Um. I I don't think

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Speaker 1: he would say that, I want to put word in

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Speaker 1: his mouth, but for me, I think he was. He

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Speaker 1: was hitting on the fact that in his life he's

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Speaker 1: seen he's seen the positive path come from the way

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Speaker 1: he moves through the world, and he articulated that in

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Speaker 1: that show. So I I agree, But secondarily to that,

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, Um, I think both those things

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Speaker 1: can be true at the same time. Systemic racism is

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Speaker 1: prevalence and prevalent in my life and then um, in

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Speaker 1: ways that I view it, and I'm sure a lot

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Speaker 1: of people listen to this feel it on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: I know my friend Charles Rodney definitely felt it through

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Speaker 1: his entire childhood, and we're still working on a piece

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Speaker 1: for the media dot Com that that hopefully will be

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Speaker 1: very impactful and describes that in detail. Man, if you

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Speaker 1: can get killer Mike, then uh then I don't think

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get killing way more more working into this show.

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Speaker 1: Don't think we're gonna get killing Mike. I don't think

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Speaker 1: so either. I pretty much am fully on board at

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Speaker 1: that voicemail. I think uh d G might become into

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Speaker 1: some like conclusions about what Mats Matt Best was saying.

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe jumping one step further, but I I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say he was shrugging it off, but i'd see

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Speaker 1: like the takeaway from that conversation that I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say I had an issue with, but that i'd

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Speaker 1: say didn't go far enough in my opinion, is that

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Speaker 1: the take away it was kind of like, oh, just

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Speaker 1: just live life with empathy, with positivity, and that will

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Speaker 1: solve things. At least that's kind of I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: that those are the exact words, but it was kind

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Speaker 1: of like that's all you have to do, or at

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Speaker 1: least if everyone did that, the world would be a

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Speaker 1: better place. I'd say I agree with that, but that's

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Speaker 1: just in my opinion. If you want to fight systemic

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Speaker 1: racism and white privilege, which does exist, you have to

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Speaker 1: actively fight against it. And that doesn't mean throwing a

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Speaker 1: brick through a window, but like, there are small things

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Speaker 1: you can do that go beyond just living with kindness

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Speaker 1: in your heart and empathy. And like I said, I think,

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Speaker 1: I think, I guess that's kind of where I see

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Speaker 1: DJ coming from. It could be wrong. I think it's

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Speaker 1: where it comes from. And I think listen, like I said,

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Speaker 1: there's two things can be true. And that's the difficult

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Speaker 1: part about what we're going through here, Matt. It's just

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Speaker 1: expressing the fact that that's how he moves through the world.

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Speaker 1: This man started a company, is a very diverse company.

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Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of people from different minority

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Speaker 1: groups work at Black Rifle Coffee. I'm very sure or

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Speaker 1: of that, um and so his the change that he's

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Speaker 1: seeing in the world is that and that's through what

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Speaker 1: he's done in his life and his positive outlook and

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Speaker 1: having empathy for everyone. UM and so I think you're

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Speaker 1: kind of like talking past each other in one way,

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Speaker 1: like when you start when you start where d G

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Speaker 1: I think starts. It's hard to hear anyone say anything

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Speaker 1: but go protests, go fight, go fight, go fight. Matt's

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Speaker 1: not saying don't go do that. He's saying, this is

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Speaker 1: the way that I do it. This is Look what

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Speaker 1: I've been able to do while moving through the world

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Speaker 1: in this way. So I think most they think what

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Speaker 1: Matt was saying is like the best way to go

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Speaker 1: fight is too completely challenge that narrative, you know, and

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Speaker 1: pull yourself up, fight for what you want, work hard,

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Speaker 1: and make it happen. And I really agree with with

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Speaker 1: what Matt said. That's why. And we've talked about this

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Speaker 1: in the office a good bit and well, you know,

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Speaker 1: like we're not gonna stop talking about this here. We'll

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Speaker 1: continue to touch on when it's relevant. But what people

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Speaker 1: are talking past each other, just talking past each other

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Speaker 1: because everybody's passionate about like they're what they see in

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Speaker 1: the world. Um. I think it's okay for Matt to

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Speaker 1: say that, But I think if you walked up to

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Speaker 1: him and said, like, do you believe in systemic racism?

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Speaker 1: Do you believe in these things that that DJ is

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Speaker 1: talking about? I think I think my guests, as he

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Speaker 1: would say, Yeah, man, I get you. I'm with you.

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Speaker 1: This is how I deal with it, um, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not I I don't walk through the world like a victim.

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Speaker 1: My narrative is like, I'm going to win the next thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm positive and that's how I'm going to tackle things.

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Speaker 1: And so, UM, I don't believe it's cop out for

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Speaker 1: me to say like both those things. Both those things

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Speaker 1: are true at the same time and can work in

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Speaker 1: the same environment. Um, because you can't really expect somebody

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Speaker 1: like Matt Best, who has fought for this country, and

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Speaker 1: and even Crispy Um to say anything what they believe

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Speaker 1: and what's worked for them in their life. And then

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Speaker 1: I found it. I was a little bit surprised at

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Speaker 1: how positive they were about things like social media and

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Speaker 1: how positive they were about the gun industry and the

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Speaker 1: culture and things like that. So um, that's what I

426
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: took away from it then. But but again, I go

427
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: right back to what you said, Phil into a DJ said,

428
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: I agree. Um, I would just encourage everybody to be

429
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: like he's right, I'm right, and and let's try to

430
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: find a way to come a little bit closer in

431
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: terms of the conversation. Um, But thanks DJ man and

432
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: dj uh showed up to the virtual rendezvous last week

433
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: the b h A Virtual Rendezvous which was really cool,

434
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who saw me on there. Um, and

435
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 1: he got a th HC Yeddi tumbler for his trouble.

436
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: So hopefully he's drinking something cool out of that and

437
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: listen to this show. But thanks d J. We really

438
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: appreciate you man. UM. Look forward to more discourse on

439
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: the subject Phil. Yeah, you knew that we had to

440
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: return to uh some form of dumping pretty much on

441
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: every episode at this point. But I'll have you know

442
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: that this has nothing to do with you, very little

443
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: to do with God. This is from Andrew Wolf. You

444
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: remember him from episode one. He was the game warden

445
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: who caught it, who caught I got dumping trash at

446
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: trail Head and that I that was dumping trash recognized

447
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: THHC and said he was a big Phil fan. Remember

448
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: that I love it. It's so good. Remember that that

449
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: was back in the innocent days, well before the quarantine.

450
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: The recent unrest. Um he said, he continues to said,

451
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: Well today I got a call from a hiker who

452
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: believed there was an individual dumping trash. I haven't read

453
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: through this, but I hope this guy was a Phil

454
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: fan too. I went to the area and it was

455
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: an overflow parking lot for one of the more popular

456
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: stocked lakes, and I got my bins out and started

457
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: looking for this supposed dumper. There was one truck in

458
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: the parking lot, and lo and behold, there was bags

459
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: of trash in the bed. Out of the bushes comes

460
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: a man who I recognized as the dumper. Who recognized THHC.

461
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: It's a repeat repeat. I also wanted to be a

462
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: new dumper that was also a Phil fan. Damnit. And

463
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: to my amazement, I see him picking up trash and

464
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: putting it in a bag in his hand. I say

465
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: because I was an exclamation point. I drove up and

466
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: made contact with him, and he explained to me that

467
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: he was picking up trash that had been littered around.

468
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: When I asked him why, he told me after hearing

469
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: about it on the podcast, he was ashamed and realized

470
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: how bad what he was doing was and had a

471
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: change of heart and wanted to clean up and make amends.

472
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: This isn't this isn't real. It's real. I'm reading it verbatim.

473
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: So thanks to you and Phil, you haven't in a

474
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: way made the world a little better place, having turned

475
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: at least one individual from not caring about our wild

476
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: places to wanting to keep them clean. So thank you

477
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: for that. Also, he said he had a Star Wars

478
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: shirt on, and when I told him Phil would love that,

479
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: he said, oh, my son got this for me. I

480
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: think that weird space magic shit is stupid. He's not wrong.

481
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: That's a new to the know. If you were right,

482
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: if you were to write this story a new movie,

483
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: someone would say. I don't believe dumping trash into the

484
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: woods gets publicly shamed and then is now now cleaning

485
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: it up. He said, sorry, Phil, for what it's worth.

486
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: I am a Star Wars fan. Keep up the great stuff, guys,

487
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: and keep on preaching the good word of keeping nature pristine. Man, Phil,

488
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: that's good. I love that. That maybe like maybe one

489
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: of the best, one of the best emails ever. Man, Um,

490
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: I I want to say that I've been It's funny.

491
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: I've been very taken aback by some of the things

492
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: that we've heard um in a recent couple of days,

493
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: like last last week. It seems like the the what

494
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: the podcast. This has like some effects that we didn't intend.

495
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: Um for the first THHC book Club, the North American

496
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: Model of the Concert Wildlife Conservation Book by Shane Mahoney

497
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: and doctor Valerious Geist. Um, we got a couple of

498
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: notes that that book is sold out in many places.

499
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: So I don't know if that was because us, but

500
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: I'm sorry everybody. Hope you're you already have your copy

501
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: and you're reading it. Please continue reading it and making

502
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: your notes and questions. We'll discuss that very soon. But

503
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: we also I also got a call from David Clark,

504
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: the manager for Colonel Tom Kelly, and he said the

505
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: THHD is selling some books. In fact, he was like you,

506
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: I think he bought me a new car. So thank

507
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: you everybody that went out and purchased one of Tom's books.

508
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: We're gonna try to have time back on. David was

509
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: was letting me know that that time is of course

510
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: getting up there in age. He's still spry in the

511
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: morning time. Um, he's got a bunch of other books

512
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: that you guys can go look at again where I'm

513
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: not making any money off that relationship. I love the

514
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: man and I love his work, and I admire it.

515
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: And that's so I'm glad that you are all out

516
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: there buying those books. Please keep doing it. And which

517
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: how to get Tom Kelly back on to discuss his

518
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: other works and what he's up to where he is

519
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: now glad he made it through so far. This quote

520
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: code mess unscathed sounds like he was doing pretty good.

521
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: So I think that's that's it. I don't think any

522
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: email will get better than that. Phil. I like that one.

523
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: That's probably a good one to unless you have some more.

524
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: But I thought that was a good that's a good

525
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: end one. The other one I will say, I don't this,

526
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: I like I said, this is gonna seem all self congratulatory,

527
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: but whatever. Um, the guys that forced the Nature Meets

528
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: you'll remember them from episode What and Everyone. One of

529
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: those two, Um, Robbie Sands came on. UM. One of

530
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: his guys called me the other day and told me

531
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: that a major grocery store chain, the major grocery Stores

532
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: Meet buyer is a fan of the show and that

533
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: and he listened to both episodes where he had Forced

534
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: and Nature on and thus, um, they're now going to

535
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: be providing some regenerative agriculture meet in their grocery store chain.

536
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: That's a major, major, major by so good vibes, Phil,

537
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: all coming really from you? Yeah? Thanks, Man Wars. Can

538
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: we make a T shirt? Let me get back and fine,

539
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: I lost this email. They're going we can find that

540
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: quote about star Wars um because oh my son got

541
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: this for me. I think that weird space magic ship

542
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: is stupid. That might be a T shirt and the

543
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: make it's I let it of itself right there. All right, Well,

544
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna get to two great guests, Diana Rodgers and

545
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: Rob Wolf. Now I just got done watching their documentary,

546
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: like one of the fine cuts of the unreleased documentary

547
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: called Sacred cal They sent me a PDF of their

548
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: book which I read. Um. I will tell you that

549
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: it's some of the best work the book, especially some

550
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: of the best work I've read on Regender b agriculture

551
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: in this kind of food sourcing food system issue that

552
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: we've covered in other episodes. I think this is just

553
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: an extension of that last episode within the cola from

554
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: Impossible Foods and Robbie Sandsthing that we mentioned from Force

555
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: and Nature Meets. But just so you know, Diana registered dietitian.

556
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: She's got a clinical practice where she helps people recover

557
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: their health through what they eat. So you'll hear about that.

558
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: You can find her at Sustainable dish Um and she's

559
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: really the heart and mind behind these this book and film,

560
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: and she partners with Rob Wolfe who she met after

561
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: reading his book The Paleo Solution Back then you'll hear

562
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: about that. We talked about a lot of things in

563
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: this in this episode, some of the cultural war stuff

564
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: that we see so interested to hear what everybody thinks

565
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: of the email about you know that, but specifically a

566
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: thought that I had that it feels the reason regenerative

567
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: feels more real. And the Sacred Cow documentary really goes

568
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: into this because they talked to farmers and rural people

569
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: and people that live in these small communities, small farming

570
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: and ranching communities, how how they've changed over the years,

571
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: how they've either fallen into or out of the food

572
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: system that would well we would call factory farming, and

573
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: how all that works. And we talked a little bit

574
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: about in with Diana and Rob about um this culture

575
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: warrant that maybe Nick Hola and Possible Foods are part

576
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: of this, like intellectual cultural elites from the coasts that

577
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: are trying to tell these people in Middle America what

578
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: to do, how to be. Um. So I think that's

579
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: an interesting to think about and pick up on as

580
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: you listen to this, but without further ado. Thanks for

581
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: all the emails, by the way, I love you guys

582
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: and hopefully you enjoy Robol. Diana Rodgers, Hey rob well

583
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: if how are you good? Good? What's new and exciting? Wow?

584
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: So many things, so many things. I am just uh

585
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: charging my way through Sacred cow um. Diana sent me

586
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: a link to the drawbox, so I download the pdf.

587
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: I'm not used to read and via pdf, but I'm

588
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: enjoying it. The publisher has been a little stingy on

589
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: print uh galleys with COVID and bookstores being shut down

590
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: and everything, so it's uh yeah, it's been a little

591
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: different experiences go around. I don't mind. It's it's a

592
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: wonderful read and I'm like I was feverishly thumbing my

593
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: thumbings probably not the right word, scrolling my way through it.

594
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: Um yeah, and excited to to get to talk to

595
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: you guys as I was as I was reading. So

596
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: I also need to say hi to Diana. Diana, Hey,

597
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: thanks for having us, no problem, Thanks for doing what

598
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: you're doing. And I know Robbie Sansom from Force of

599
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: Nature introduced us and he basically said that he knew

600
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: a lot about the subject, but there was nobody that

601
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: knows more than Diana and rob So I'm thankful that

602
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: you get a horrible state of affairs. If we're if

603
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: we are the experts on this, then we are doomed. Yeah.

604
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: I'm scared of being called an expert on anything, UM,

605
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: let alone something as complicated is what we're about to discuss.

606
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: So I appreciate the leap that you guys are taking. UM. Diana,

607
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: I guess we should first start with UM your background.

608
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: I know your registered dietitian, you have a clinical practice,

609
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: you help people recover their health through real food. UM.

610
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: Can you just kind of describe what it means to

611
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 1: you to to do that for profession and obviously it's

612
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: spun into something more. Yeah, definitely. UM. I I came

613
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: to this because I had sort of this lifelong health

614
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: crisis and I didn't know until I was twenty six

615
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: that I had undiagnosed celiac disease pretty much my whole life. UM.

616
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: And so when UM, when I first went gluten free,

617
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: it definitely was a an eye opener for me, but

618
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: it was I still had, you know, all these blood

619
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: sugar roller coasters, and I wasn't really sure what was

620
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: going on, and so UM, I just kept on trying

621
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: to learn more and more about nutrition and UM actually

622
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: ended up reading the Paleo Solution right when it first

623
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: came out and gave it a shot, and it was

624
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: just totally life changing, and I changed my career. UM.

625
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: So I had a background in in marketing and I

626
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: was also UM live. I've been living on organic farms

627
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: the last eighteen years, and so UM. You know, the

628
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: more I learned about real food nutrition and you know,

629
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: regenerative farming, the more I realized how similar they are.

630
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: And when you look at nutrition through an evolutionary biology lens,

631
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: but then when you look at farming through a similar lens,

632
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: they're actually pretty similar. What we try to do is

633
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: just mimic nature, UM through you know, what we're eating, UM,

634
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: and you know there's there's not the same exact foods

635
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: that were around during hunter gatherer days, UM, but similar

636
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: with farming, we can use technologies like electric fencing and

637
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: other new things to also just kind of improve upon

638
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: nature but still mimic nature at the same time. And

639
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: so I realized that most of the people that we're

640
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: talking about sustainability and UM diet, we're really pushing this vegetarian,

641
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: vegan type diet UM full of ultra processed fake meats

642
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: and things like that. UM. And so I thought that

643
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: we could really offer a unique perspective. And Rob and

644
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: I connected pretty early on in maybe two thousand and

645
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: ten UM and and he also was very interested in

646
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: the sustainability topic, and we were sort of the only

647
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: two lunatics in the ancestral health UH space that we're

648
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: really pushing for, you know, organic farming and regenerative agriculture

649
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: and things like that. We got involved with the Savory Institute,

650
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: and UM just started digging in this. And I've been

651
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: wanting to write this book for years and years and years,

652
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: and Rob kept telling me it wasn't time, it wasn't time,

653
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: and so I was bugging him forever to do this

654
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: with me, and then UM, the timing just seemed right.

655
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: So so we started UM on this book about three

656
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: and a half years ago, and then UM kind of

657
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: halfway through writing the book. UH. And yet another vegan

658
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: documentary came out, and I realized that's the way to

659
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: reach young people, Like who's going to pick up a

660
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: dense book like like Sacred Cow. I mean, we tried

661
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: to write it in an approachable way. We have really

662
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: nice graphics. It's it's written and of a conversational tone.

663
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: You don't need a master's degree in science in order

664
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: to understand it. But um, but young people are really

665
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: making some really serious, misguided decisions, um, and how am

666
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: I going to get to them? And so I thought

667
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: that if we did a film in addition to the book,

668
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: it would really hit all those, um, all those folks

669
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: that we need to be talking to. So we've we've

670
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: got a film in addition to the book coming out. Yeah,

671
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm excited to take a look at that. What's interesting

672
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: to me, UM about a lot of this, And we

673
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: had Nick Hola from Impossible Foods a couple of episodes ago,

674
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: is how people kind of get to his story was

675
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: is exceedingly interesting to me because he came from a

676
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: family of farmers and he kind of made his way

677
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: to um looking to end parts of the practice in

678
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: in his professional life now and it's interesting to me

679
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: to see how people come to these these beliefs and

680
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: how they become public figures and speaking about it. So

681
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: like you're growing up, Um, what was what was the

682
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: relationship with food and the outdoors and all that, all

683
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Uh So I actually I grew

684
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: up on Eastern Long Islands. There was a lot of

685
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 1: hunting going on out there actually too, because the deer

686
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: population is completely out of control. And I've seen the

687
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 1: decimation of what can happen when people aren't into hunting,

688
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: and uh, we don't have any wild predators anymore, and

689
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: you just got this massive problem. Um. And uh, my

690
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: my job all through high school and college was working

691
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: on a farm and being outside and just really connecting

692
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: with people, connecting people to their food and just absolutely

693
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: loving it, falling in love with it completely. And um

694
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: and then just you know kind of you know, thinking

695
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: about what do I want to do with my life?

696
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: And you know, what is it? You've got one shot here?

697
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do with yourself? And um, so

698
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: it was really trust. I feel like it's a really

699
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: great combination of like an environmentalism, being outside, working with nature,

700
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: helping to improve nature, and providing healthy food for for

701
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: lots and lots of people. So yeah, and and describe

702
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: your relationship. We're gonna get to Rob here in a

703
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: segment talking about your relationship with Rob and and how

704
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: that's gone. And it seems like a fruitful partnership, especially

705
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: the book that I've I've about three quarters of the

706
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: way through. She calls me a lot of bad names frequently,

707
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: but I deserved. We don't fight as much as we

708
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: used to. See it's healthy. That's as healthy as anything. Um. Yeah,

709
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: I mean I first, um just you know, thanked him

710
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: for I mean, the Paleo Solution really was like a

711
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: pivotal book in saving my health. Seriously. Um. And if

712
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: I if I didn't eat in that way, I would

713
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: be uh, very diabetic at the moment and very very

714
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: broken and sick. Um. And I was never really like obese,

715
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: but I was very very sick. And I guess we

716
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: just I sent him a link to Alan Savory's Ted Talk,

717
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: and um, we've done a lot of co presentations at

718
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: Polly Face Farm down Virginia, and we both just sort

719
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: of realized that you know, something can happen like once

720
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: you save your body, um, then what like then you know,

721
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: basically we just decided let's save the world, you know,

722
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: like let's let's let's fix the broken system that we're in.

723
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: So you know, I did listen to your podcast about

724
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: Impossible Foods and then with Robbie, and you know, it

725
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 1: really is like we're trying to um, you know, create

726
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: a new system that um works with nature and actually

727
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: repairs the land and not you know, taking some iteration

728
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: of the existing system and just and just maximizing our

729
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: profits based on that. So um, it's just two different

730
00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, similar concerns, but just two different UM end games. Yeah, yeah, Eisily,

731
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, surprisingly different endgames. And Rob you're a trained

732
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: research biochemists. Do you trained as a Reacher's podcast? Yeah,

733
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: I did some cancer not a immunity research quite a

734
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: long time ago now, but you know, I've always been

735
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: interested in health human performance. I mainly did enough time

736
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: in the lab to support being in the gym or

737
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: hunting or spear fishing. So um, that was that was

738
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: kind of you know, mainly a geek that like to

739
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 1: hunt and fish and and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

740
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: let's get here. And and as you as you think

741
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: about writing the Paleo solution, and at that time, of

742
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: your life prior to working with Diana. What's what's your

743
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: life like? Did you have any similar struggles or like

744
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 1: what brought you to this this passion or or you know, yeah,

745
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: very similar. I would also both my my mother and myself.

746
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: And now I've discovered like virtually everybody in my family

747
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: has Siliac disease, this autoimmune condition driven by by gluten

748
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: really terrible blood sugar management. Like nobody in my family

749
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: should be eating much in the way of like white

750
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: potatoes or bread or anything like that. Like it's funny,

751
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: nobody in my family gets particularly obese, but they get

752
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: high blood pressure than cardivascular disease, and then they die.

753
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: And so we're in that spectrum where none of us

754
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: would get three pounds. Everybody in my family would would

755
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: die well in advance of that. So it was really

756
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: kind of the personal health crisis that I had that

757
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: got me into all this. And like Diana said, you know,

758
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: once you fix your own stuff, and it's like having

759
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: abs is cool, having some performance is cool, But I

760
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: think you kind of stand up and you look around,

761
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: you start asking what else can I do? Like how

762
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: can I leave some some legacy here? And it was

763
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: very early in the story when when I would interface

764
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: with folks typically out of kind of the vegan vegetarian world,

765
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: that would say, well, you know, animal has injury, is

766
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: is unsustainable or it's damaging, or it's this, or it's that.

767
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: And I'm a half decent student of kind of economics

768
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: and markets and stuff like that, and also because of

769
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: my biochemistry background, like I really think about things from

770
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: kind of a physics perspective, like the thermodynamic inputs and outputs.

771
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: And when I really started thinking about this, it just

772
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: back at the envelope numbers. It's like, hey, you know,

773
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: sunlight grass animals done. Like that's a really efficient system.

774
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: Like that's been around a long time. It's been well

775
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: pressured tested over the course of history. So you know,

776
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: some of these these what what we would call advancements,

777
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: like the industrial agriculture system, it's really amazing. It's very impressive,

778
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: but it's also very extractive. And from that economics perspective,

779
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: I think we're just now kind of circling around and recognizing, oh,

780
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: it looks really efficient, so long as we ignore everything

781
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: else that's going on. It's kind of like talking about

782
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: electric cars, like they look kind of cool, and I'm

783
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: kind I'm a fan of solar. It's that that's neat.

784
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: But when you look at what the energy costs are

785
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: of mining rare earth metals, pulling them out of the ground,

786
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: processing them, sending them to China, getting components built, sending

787
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: them back here, then we send everything back to China.

788
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: When you look at the full energy inputs of that,

789
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: electric cars aren't all that efficient, like just tinkering with

790
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: you know, internal combustion engines is more you know efficient,

791
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: and a lower carbon footprint and all that type of stuff.

792
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: So those have really been kind of the orienting features

793
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: for me. And it's incredibly unpopular. It pretty much guarantees

794
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: I will piss everybody off whenever I talk about something.

795
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: But I've I've really tried to let the data and

796
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: the research drive this stuff first, and I spend a

797
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: lot of time trying to blow up the assumptions that

798
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: I've made. So Diana and I when we were writing

799
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: the book, we had a whole list of assumptions when

800
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: we really went after it with how do we destroy this?

801
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: How do we make ourselves look like idiots? And then

802
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: we kind of worked backwards from there, and I feel like,

803
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: it's pretty scientifically robust and defensible, and also on it

804
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: it's cool because that vegan vegetarian narrative is it's super sexy.

805
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: It lends itself to an elevator pitch, you know, it

806
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: a little thirty second sound bites are are awesome. We

807
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: don't really have that advantage. But if we can get

808
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: in and chat with folks a little bit and kind

809
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: of paint this bigger picture, then usually you you can

810
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: kind of see the light turn on and people get

811
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: it and they're like, Okay, we're talking about working with

812
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 1: nature instead of you know, trying to do something that

813
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: we couldn't come back at thousand years from now and

814
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: still have the systems that we're using today still working.

815
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: It's got to be something different. Yeah, I mean, and

816
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 1: its sacred cow. You say this in the opening pages

817
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: of the book, and it is through true throughout it

818
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: that it's an It's an idea that spans physics, chemistry,

819
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: by biology, ecology and as you said, they're psychology, our culture, um,

820
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: how we structure, how we relate to each other, how

821
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: we relate to the natural world. So what you're cracking

822
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: into here is not a small, uh piece of subject matter.

823
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: It really is this fissure between the approaches here is

824
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: I think it's part of a larger idea of what

825
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: of the culture war that we have going here in

826
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 1: some and I think we use the term culture war

827
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: probably about a dozen times in the book. Yeah. Yeah,

828
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,479
Speaker 1: And it's so you know, try to Rob if you could,

829
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: think you describe for our listeners how you see that

830
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: culture war. I know, it's it's coastal versus heartland. There's

831
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: so much that goes into how we produce food, Who's

832
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: eating the food, who's doing the talking here? Um, who's

833
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: writing the articles in the New York Times? Who who

834
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: are the voices that are kind of allowed to speak? Um?

835
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: And I think that I think that's a great and

836
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: important place to start here. Yeah, you know, And and

837
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: first and this thing I want to say, I think

838
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: that a lot of folks have some really good intentions.

839
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: They have some some desires to improve things. But the

840
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 1: path to hell is oftentimes paved on good intentions. And

841
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: and you know of one oh one, you know, very

842
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: superficial understanding of these complex systems can lead people to

843
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: make decisions that the the knock on effects and the

844
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: unintended consequences are absolutely catastrophic. But there are lots of

845
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: elements of the industrial food system I'm not really a

846
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: fan of. And again, I'm kind of one of these lunatic,

847
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: kind of libertarian folks, like I really wish that we

848
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: didn't have farm subsidies, Like farm subsidies are kind of

849
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: the driver for the junk food industry. And and you know,

850
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: and if you really want to look at an existential

851
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: threat to Western civilization, it's our it's our highly processed

852
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: modern diet like this, this covid epidemic. If the whole

853
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: population had been metabolically healthy, this thing would have been

854
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: a non issue. The fact that was scary is that

855
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: a recent study suggested that fewer than twelve percent of

856
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: Americans are metabolically healthy. And if we saw anything that

857
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: was kind of a truth out of this very politicized topic,

858
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: if you had one or more comorbidities, you know, high

859
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascot disease, you had a really high

860
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: chance of not faring well in this thing. So, you know,

861
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of good intentionality within all this stuff,

862
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: But then there's also the ability to really control some

863
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: interesting narratives the folks that have developed this industrial food system,

864
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: they own the intellectual property on our food and part

865
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: of the end game with this, and it gets a

866
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: little bit conspiracy theory, I guess, but we can we

867
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: can slap on an Alex Jones hat for a minute

868
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: and just just like take a rite on this thing.

869
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: But some of the recommendations in particularly in doing away

870
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: with animal husbandry, what we are left with is about

871
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: four or five crops that are the intellectual property for

872
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: these things is owned lock stock and barrel, and and

873
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: you have no recourse. Anyone in the world would have

874
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: no recourse other than to continue buying the seed from

875
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: these these you know, very few manufacturers around the world.

876
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: And even that is ignoring the fact that that system

877
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: is completely reliant on synthetic chemical inputs which are really

878
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: not sustainable. It destroys top soil, destroys ecosystems. It's really fascinating.

879
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: Like the Audubon Society was historically very much in the

880
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: in the UH, I guess, the opinion that like huge

881
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: tracks of land just needed to be left alone and

882
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: don't have anything going on for God's sake, don't don't

883
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: graze animals on it, and then they actually looked at

884
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: what was happening on some of these savory institute farms

885
00:48:54,480 --> 00:49:00,240
Speaker 1: and ranches and massive numbers of these marginalized or or

886
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: endangered bird species. We're rebounding because when people would do

887
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: this holistic management that if you have more animals, if

888
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: you have more birds, if you have more bugs, then

889
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: the cows will be healthier. It's a you know, you

890
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: don't want a moonscape. You want something that looks more

891
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: like a forest meadow with a bunch of different animals

892
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: and plants and insects and microbiome. You know that's occurring

893
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 1: under the ground. So it's a it's a as you said,

894
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: it's a big complex topic to unpack. But if you

895
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: really take this thing to its endpoint, if Diana and

896
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: I could wave a magic wand and kind of shift

897
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: this whole thing, what we would have is tens of

898
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: thousands of small, decentralized farms, processing facilities, very a non

899
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: debt based food production system. So farmers don't need to

900
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: go into massive debt to do these things. It's not

901
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: a massive infrastructure investment to do the stuff, Like you

902
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: could start on four or five acres and as long

903
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: as you've got like a quad and some electric fencing,

904
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: you can start scaling this thing and kind of ramping

905
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: it up. People who work in these systems it's hard

906
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: work and it's a lot of work, but they get

907
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 1: paid well. So in this time of automation where we're

908
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 1: starting to ask these questions about, well, where are people

909
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: going to work, what are they going to do? Food

910
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: production is is arguably if we don't go in the

911
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: industrial agriculture direction, if we go in this kind of

912
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: holistic management direction, it is arguably going to be the

913
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: last place that artificial intelligence could displace human labor because

914
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: all that these farmers do, all that these ranchers do

915
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: is creatively problem solved from from morning tonight, and creative

916
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: problem solving is something that arguably is either going to

917
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: be the last thing to a I cracks or it's

918
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: never going to crack it. So you could make the

919
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: case that we would have a food system and economic system,

920
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: a labor kind of kind of network that we could

921
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 1: come back at thousand years from now when the thing

922
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: is still functioning and it's probably working even better because

923
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 1: we've figured out how to make the thing run better.

924
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: But you know, this debt based extractive system. It's got

925
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: a it's got an expiration date on it, and you

926
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 1: don't have to be too conspiracy theory oriented to recognize that.

927
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear, Diana, you talk about this a

928
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: little bit as I as I listened to him Nick

929
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: from Possible Foods talk and I kind of was and

930
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: it took me. I've been I still think about it

931
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: almost every night and try to understand, you know, his

932
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: point of view. I don't. I would just flat outside.

933
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: And I said this in the following podcast. I just

934
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: don't agree with the ideology. I can't. It does not

935
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: track for me objectively. It's not that I couldn't see

936
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: it if if if he convinced me, it just doesn't track.

937
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: And part of that is because it doesn't solve what

938
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: Rob was just talking about. It doesn't solve proximity to

939
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: food um and that's I think what what I got

940
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 1: from Nick, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts were, Hey,

941
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: I have this, there's a symptom of the underlying illness

942
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 1: that I can cure. What it's going to have all

943
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: these other um ill effects, It's going to cause all

944
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: these other versions of the same illness. So UM, be

945
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: interested to hear your thoughts on on that. Yeah, I

946
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: mean I definitely noticed that he didn't answer a lot

947
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 1: of your questions. UM. For example, there's nothing organic even

948
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: about this mono crop that he's growing. I mean, there's

949
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: there's nothing. You know, he's very they're very focused on,

950
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 1: you know, lowering greenhouse gas emissions and land use, but

951
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: he didn't address the issue of, you know, all the

952
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: non arable land and what are we going to do

953
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: with that, and how are we going to improve that,

954
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: how are we going to build soil health um? You know. Uh,

955
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: And and just going back really quickly to your your

956
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: question to Rob about you know, the polarization and how

957
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: did we even get here. But it's just so interesting

958
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: this Silicon Valley. UM. You know, us, us urban elite

959
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: are going to then make decisions for the rest of

960
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: these rural um idiots really the whole world. Yeah, And

961
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: when you think about all of the places in the

962
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: world that can't grow soybeans, um or crops, you know, UM,

963
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: and all of the people who don't even have the

964
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: privilege to be able to push away a nutrient dense

965
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: food and would just love to have it. They don't

966
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: have a CBS where they can get their B twelve supplements. UM.

967
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: You know, products like beyond burger are twice as expensive

968
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: per pound as organic grass fed burger. UM. And you know,

969
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: there's a again, a lot of places where you can

970
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,479
Speaker 1: really only raise goats or camels or you know, other

971
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: kite kinds of grazing livestock because the land is too

972
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: hilly to the the soils to pour. There's also a

973
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: lot of places where women can't own title to land,

974
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: but they can own livestock. And when we improve the

975
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: nutrition of women, we improve the nutrition of the entire family,

976
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 1: and it can actually give the whole family a leg

977
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: up in the world if they just get those nutrients,

978
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,479
Speaker 1: especially in those first thousand days. So that's where UM,

979
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: I think our position is unique in that, first we

980
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 1: make the case that real food is UM is a

981
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: right that people should have a choice to be making,

982
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be someone's um you know, moral dictate

983
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: on the rest of the world that they don't have

984
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: the right to eat foods that they're culturally have always eaten. Right.

985
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's pretty basic right there. UM. And

986
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: so we make the case that you know, UM, animal

987
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: products are critical for human nutrition, and that supplements and

988
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 1: these artificial you know, vitamins and minerals that are being

989
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: placed into ultraprocessed foods are just not the same as

990
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: getting them from real food, whether that's an elk or

991
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: a deer or a cow. Um. And so we once

992
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: we make that case that humans are definitely omnivores and

993
00:54:55,400 --> 00:55:00,240
Speaker 1: you know, they thrive the best on nutrient dense food,

994
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: largely things that we get from animal products, then we

995
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 1: move into the environmental case in the book and start

996
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: talking about very important things like land use, which um

997
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: is how I actually got our book contracts. Are Our

998
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: publisher is ben Bella. They did the China study. They're

999
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: a vegan publisher, and who better to vet our book

1000
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: than a vegan publisher, right, I mean, we're we're writing

1001
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 1: the anti China study, is what we're doing. We're saying

1002
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: these epidemiology, you know, population based studies are ridiculous to

1003
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 1: be setting policy on, and um, you know, let's look

1004
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 1: at what really works in nature. Let's let's stop making

1005
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: assumptions based on um, you know, epidemiology, which really only

1006
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,879
Speaker 1: can prove bias. Yeah, we gotta I think we've gotta

1007
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: continue to to look at how um the like the

1008
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,760
Speaker 1: ideology and how some of the the ideas from beyond

1009
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: an impossible and kind of that Silicon Valley sect that's

1010
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: like sitting at the altar of progress. And and that's

1011
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: another thing that struck me in the way that they speak.

1012
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: They speak like they're going to go to rural America

1013
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: and tell them, hey, you've been doing. You don't know

1014
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: anything about this, you know anything about the natural world,

1015
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: you don't know anything about Let's let me come in.

1016
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna come in.

1017
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna fix all your problems. And and I've thought

1018
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 1: about it, but I've done that in l A and

1019
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and it just doesn't seem it just doesn't

1020
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: seem to track. And then I'm and I read I

1021
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: know you guys did a breakdown on this. You were

1022
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 1: telling me. I read the article in the New York

1023
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: Times that the title is the end of Meat is here? Yeah, exactly, yeah,

1024
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: And and so equating that you know, all factory farming

1025
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: is evil and therefore we shouldn't eat meat is like saying, well,

1026
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: sweatshops are bad, so we shouldn't wear clothing. It's a

1027
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: strong man. Like anybody that knows anything about arguments, is

1028
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: that's that's the strong man of of the situation. Yeah,

1029
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: and so we try to very logically. We actually took

1030
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: all of the main concerns that people have about meat.

1031
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: So does it cause cancer, does it cause heart disease?

1032
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: Is it bad for greenhouse gases? What's going on with

1033
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: the methane, what's going on with land use? Is? Yeah,

1034
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: all of those things. And then and uh, and in

1035
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: the ethics section, you know, what about sentience least arm?

1036
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: What is the diet of least arm really look like?

1037
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: You know, is there is it possible to eat without death?

1038
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: Because no, it's actually not. And so um, we tried

1039
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: to vary logically, um, go through all the evidence we

1040
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: could find, which is why the book took us along

1041
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: to write and really just break down each single one.

1042
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: And as Rob was saying, it's it's not easy to explain,

1043
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 1: for example, with greenhouse gases, which is really all his

1044
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: argument is, right, he can't talk about eat, ecological function,

1045
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: he can't talk about um improving water, infiltration of soil,

1046
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: he can't talk about any of those things because monocrops,

1047
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: soy can't do any of those things. Um, you can

1048
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: talk about greenhouse gasses. But then when you look at

1049
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: biogenic methane, which comes from ruminants, it comes from moose. Uh.

1050
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: But yet in Sweden the Green Party wants to eliminate

1051
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: all moose because they emit methane. Um. And Rob even

1052
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: found an article where they were trying to get rid

1053
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 1: of muscles off the ocean floor because they meant methane.

1054
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: And and this is the danger of having a really

1055
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: simplistic understanding of an insanely complex system and then jumping

1056
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: to conclusions. If you just say all greenhouse gas emissions

1057
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: are bad, then what that means is all life is bad.

1058
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: And this is like there are people in these articles

1059
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: looking at a muscle and different shell fish populations that

1060
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: were suggesting, maybe we need to call these things to

1061
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: reduce their greenhouse gas emission. And that is a sign

1062
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 1: of either a living or a dead ocean to say nothing.

1063
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: And there's just so many different layers to this, but

1064
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: a very simple piece of this is that the greenhouse

1065
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: gases that are emitted via biological systems are a cycle.

1066
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: It's it's not a net. You know, It is different

1067
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: than taking oil or coal that's an underground for potentially

1068
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of years and liberating huge amounts of

1069
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: that in a fairly brief period of time. And the

1070
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: ironic thing is that properly managed life actually sequesters more carbon.

1071
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: It puts it underground, it locks it into you know,

1072
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: like a carbon formations like in in coral reefs and whatnot.

1073
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: And so the goal should not be less life. It

1074
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: shouldn't be an intellectually property owned life in the form

1075
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: of like five different crops. It should be as much

1076
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: different life as possible, and each local environment, each equal

1077
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: local ecosystem, you know, like if if you're in the

1078
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: mountains of Peru, you have a very different demand than

1079
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: you do in central Texas where I am, you know.

1080
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: And so when we start getting these very top down,

1081
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 1: command based recommendations, it just it ignores not just the culture,

1082
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: but the economics, the the energy inputs, the thermodynamics and

1083
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: so ham handed. It's it's remarkable and in this time,

1084
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: like I don't want this thing to turn super political,

1085
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: but in this time when people make a ton of

1086
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: noise about respecting different cultures, this strikes me as the

1087
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: most disrespectful thing I could imagine, which is that a

1088
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: small group of largely wealthy, white vegetarian oriented people are

1089
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,479
Speaker 1: telling everybody else in the world that their traditional food

1090
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: systems are unethical, damaging to the environment, and damaging to

1091
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: their health, when we can make a very strong case

1092
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,919
Speaker 1: that that is untrue in all three of those areas. Yeah,

1093
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: that's it's interesting to bring it back, you know. And

1094
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: and I don't want to just keep harping on Nick

1095
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: from Impossible Food, because he was a very nice guy,

1096
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 1: um and was you know, I think very believes very

1097
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: holistically what he's doing. But you know, he's he spoke

1098
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: about talking to his brother about the farming practices and

1099
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: kind of speaking to him as if um, he had

1100
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: gone away to a monastery and and and learn the

1101
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: game and became enlightened and learned the truth and needed

1102
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 1: to then go back into these communities and and you know,

1103
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: kind of enlighten them as well. And that that's the

1104
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: thing that struck me the most about that conversation, listening

1105
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: back to it, thinking about it, And I don't want

1106
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 1: to continue to harp on the cultural piece of this,

1107
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: but I think that's a huge underlying current of like,

1108
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: why are we having this argument. Why can't we say

1109
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of regendat a lot of regendative, a

1110
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: little bit of plant based stuff whatever. And I think

1111
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: it's because it's become such a backed into a corner

1112
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: ideology that then it becomes one versus the other, and

1113
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: is where is where we are? I think the interesting

1114
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: thing is the regenerative agg model. It is not amenable

1115
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: to any one individual owning it. You can't own the

1116
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: i P. It's a low barrier of ventry. It's really

1117
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 1: democratizes both food and food production and employment. And so

1118
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: that's a fascinating thing to me that these folks that

1119
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: are kind of more like social justice oriented, that they're

1120
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: actually moving towards these these mega corporations that operate outside

1121
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: of governmental institutions like they are are literally super national,

1122
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: like they they have ways of just basically bypassing, you know,

1123
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: the rules and regulations around the world because it's just

1124
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: kind of a shell game. They moved stuff around. They're

1125
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 1: always changing. And it's interesting that the that regenerative model.

1126
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: If you don't want to eat animal products, there will

1127
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 1: be food for you there. You can live your life way.

1128
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: And the people raising food in that way, are not

1129
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: going to care one way or the other the way

1130
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: that you eat. But yet that reciprocity, that other side

1131
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: does not exist. The folks that are advocating for this

1132
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: planet of the Vegans model, they literally want to expunge

1133
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: whole cultures because they disagree with it. And one, I

1134
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 1: think that ethically that's really challenging, Like I have beliefs,

1135
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: but I I'm I just can't imagine too many things

1136
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: that I would move, like a gun or bayonet point

1137
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 1: to move to shift people to my ideology. Like I

1138
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: am really uncomfortable with that. But this is kind of

1139
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: the sentiment, This is kind of the stated goal of

1140
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: these folks, and I see this careening into a really

1141
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: terrible place, you know, like driving this culture war two,

1142
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, some sort of really terrible in point is

1143
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: is not going to be good and it's not ultimately

1144
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 1: going to achieve the thing that I think a lot

1145
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: of these well meaning folks hope to to effect. Joel

1146
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: Salaton had a great, great response. I was at a

1147
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: talk that he gave and someone asked him about, you know,

1148
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: well what do you think about begins some vegetarians, And

1149
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: he said, if you let me raise the food to

1150
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: feed my family. I promise you I will raise enough

1151
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: food for you to feed your family and do it

1152
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: in the way that you want to do. And if

1153
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: there was that reciprocity, then this whole topic would kind

1154
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: of go away. But there's a lot of money, there's

1155
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: a lot of control. All there's control both on the

1156
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: economic level but also trying to control like the ideology

1157
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: and the culture. And people get pretty enamored with that. Yeah, well,

1158
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 1: I think and and and you know why you call

1159
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: the book Sacred Cow. You say it in there, you

1160
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: say that the prejudice that meat is bad for health

1161
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 1: in the environment, and that eating it is morally objectionable,

1162
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: morally gextual practices effectively become this sacred cow, which is

1163
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: an idea, custom, and institution held especially unreasonably, to be

1164
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: above criticism. And and that's where this is moving towards.

1165
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that those of us who are

1166
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 1: reasonable and who want to find a very tangible and

1167
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: very you know, close proximity solution to eating just this

1168
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: seems so far fetched that side of the Aisland, So Diana,

1169
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: I know, that's that's generally the thesis of what you

1170
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 1: guys worked on UM can you talk about and I

1171
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: would say too, it's UM. It's it's not just you

1172
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: know these uh A fanatical v ends. All of those

1173
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 1: those guys definitely exist and we talk about them in

1174
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: the book. You know, like folks can't even leave the

1175
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 1: cult of veganism without being UM totally destroyed. And actually, UM,

1176
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: I was just texting with Rob last week because of

1177
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: really major UM influencer that was involved in the Game

1178
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: Changers film just reached out to me UM telling me

1179
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: that he's now going back and you know, he wants

1180
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: to talk, but he hasn't you know, been able to

1181
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: announce again these things. But UM, when I was becoming

1182
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: a dietitian, UM, there's there's not just the fanatical veganism,

1183
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 1: but there's this underlying meat is bad. What we need

1184
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: less meat? Clearly we need less meat, you know, UM.

1185
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: And I think that that's really dangerous too, because it's

1186
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: just like everyone just assumes, you know, everyone in my

1187
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: town here in um eastern Massachusetts, they're highly educated, health conscious,

1188
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: environmentally conscious. None of them are eating beef because it's

1189
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: just like that bad thing and they they're not even

1190
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: realizing it. They're eating more and more, you know, factory

1191
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: farm chicken, which is actually the worst choice you could

1192
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: be making. UM and uh and the folks that are,

1193
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: for example, pulling meat out of schools, it's meatless mondays,

1194
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 1: I mean when you really look at it. Uh. So,

1195
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 1: the New York City Public School system is the largest

1196
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: school system in the US. UH And of those kids

1197
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: are either homeless or um low income. And there's never

1198
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: been evidence to support that feeding food insecure kids less

1199
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: meat is a benefit. There's there's nothing to base that on.

1200
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: In fact, there's only been one randomized control trial that

1201
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: looked at food insecure kids and um one group was

1202
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: given a meat supplement and the other one was just

1203
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: given extra calories. And the ones that got the meat

1204
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: supplement for firm better behaviorally, academically, and physically. UM. So,

1205
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 1: we have no evidence nutritionally to pull meat away from

1206
01:06:57,280 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 1: children who need that iron and be twelve in particular,

1207
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: and you know this may be the only meal or

1208
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 1: the healthiest meal they get all day. Um. And then

1209
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: environmentally pulling meat away one day a week and then

1210
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: just substituting in beans and rice and mac and cheese

1211
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 1: and and things like that, there's actually no evidence to

1212
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 1: show that that makes any dent at all. So there's

1213
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: one study that we cite several times in the book

1214
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 1: showing that if we UH pulled all animal products out

1215
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 1: of the US diet completely, greenhouse gas emissions would only

1216
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: go down two point six percent if we all went vegan,

1217
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: yet dietary nutrient deficiencies would go way up, overall calories

1218
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: would go way up, and overall carbs would go awayep

1219
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: So when we're looking at a population where of Americans

1220
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: or obese or overweight, um, you know, that doesn't make

1221
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: a lot of sense to actually be giving them more calories.

1222
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 1: And so we also looked at the greenhouse gases associated

1223
01:07:55,880 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 1: with obesity and diabetes. So all of the UH need

1224
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: dynog all the land sets from the all of that.

1225
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: So we we have to really look at this from

1226
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: from multi levels, not just like methane emissions you know,

1227
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 1: from moose and deer and cows and and all these

1228
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: things and say, well, it must be the methane from them,

1229
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: that's the worst thing in the world. Yeah, I think

1230
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 1: of what you're talking about too. There's there's the nutritional

1231
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: part which I definitely want to cover, which you guys

1232
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: do so so well. In the book. But there and there,

1233
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,759
Speaker 1: there's also this idea that you present in the beginning

1234
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: of the book that that most of us want to

1235
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: follow the noble principle, you know that what would be

1236
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 1: a noble principle of doing the least harm? Right? And

1237
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: I think part of the simplistic notion here is that

1238
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 1: one side, the vegan side, maybe the you know, we'll

1239
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: put impossible in those books. In that side, they're taking

1240
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 1: advantage of that idea. Right, they're saying, you want to

1241
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 1: do the least harm? Boom, I got the I got

1242
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 1: the solution. It's a simplistic exchange, right. It's good people

1243
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: want things to be good or bad. They want things

1244
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 1: to be evil or or kind and benevolent. And I

1245
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 1: that's the thing that bothers me the most, and the

1246
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: thing that I think if people read Sacred Cow, they'll

1247
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 1: see that it's so much deeper and more complex than that.

1248
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 1: What you know, what Rob just talked about with electric cars,

1249
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 1: what you're just talking about with eliminating meat. These things

1250
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,679
Speaker 1: are so much more complicated than what they would seem.

1251
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: And I you know, I think Rob, you can even

1252
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: speak to a little bit of of this least harm

1253
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: idea and how that's this kind of infiltrating the way

1254
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: people think and the way they make decisions. Yeah, you know,

1255
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 1: it's it and it again, I think that that's a

1256
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: noble proposition. Like I just buy a pellet gun for

1257
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,680
Speaker 1: my daughters and they were interested in hunting, and I'm

1258
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,720
Speaker 1: teaching them how to shoot starting with that, and they

1259
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 1: were talking about like, Dad, you know, it's hard to

1260
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 1: kill things, like this thing is going to die. And

1261
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, so we don't shoot anything that we

1262
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 1: don't eat otherwise that's what targets in tin cans are

1263
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: for and stuff like that. So I I think that

1264
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: most people have some sense of that, like the sanctity

1265
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:58,719
Speaker 1: of life. But we also um our dog got ahold

1266
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: of the normadilla the other day and like I had did,

1267
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 1: he didn't finish it, so I had to finish it

1268
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 1: and the girls were a little upset. But I'm like,

1269
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 1: you know, if Dutch were out in the wild, our

1270
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: Rhodesian ridge back, he would need to eat something, you know,

1271
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 1: like they and they really get that. In Diana has

1272
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 1: an amazing story from her daughter where her daughter basically said, oh,

1273
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 1: it's impossible to be vegan because everything lives, everything dies,

1274
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: our bones are blood, everything recycles, you know, and so

1275
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, nothing is is really

1276
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: ultimately vegan. But at the same time, like, there are

1277
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: some ways that we could make our food system more humane,

1278
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 1: both for humans and animals, and we could make it

1279
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 1: more safe and more resilient. And so I think that

1280
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: there's great instinct there. But to your point, these super

1281
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 1: simplistic solutions, Oh, I got you. We're just gonna do

1282
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,520
Speaker 1: row crops as far as the eye can see, process

1283
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 1: those things, and then turn it into something that kind

1284
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: of sort of looks and smells and tastes like meat,

1285
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 1: and that's going to fix the whole problem, and it

1286
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 1: just doesn't. But unpacking of that story is really challenging,

1287
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: and it it's very controversial too, because again, um it's

1288
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: it's presented as an unassailable fact that meat is bad

1289
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,600
Speaker 1: for the environment, bad for your health, and an unethical

1290
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: thing to consume. But there was a study that was

1291
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 1: done out of Dana was at Oregon State University, the

1292
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: least arm principle study, like that original one. I'm pretty

1293
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 1: sure it was. Last name was Davis, Yeah, yeah, and

1294
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 1: he did an amazing kind of thermodynamic analysis of like

1295
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 1: how many animals are killed in the process of raising

1296
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: row crops and whatnot. And it's everything from like birds

1297
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 1: to insects, to snakes and lizards and on and on

1298
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: versus like if a family were to live mainly off

1299
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:49,680
Speaker 1: of one cow a year, two cows a year, or

1300
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 1: what have you. And there was just no comparison. There

1301
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 1: were far fewer animals killed in this large grazing animal

1302
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: model versus this this road crop centric model. And this

1303
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 1: is where it really got interesting for Diana and I

1304
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: and and was part of the reason why we stayed

1305
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: in the fight. It looks the best from a least

1306
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 1: harm perspective, to have this grazing animal centric model. It

1307
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 1: appears to be the best from a nutritional standpoint, and

1308
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: then ironically, from like a resource perspective, it seems to

1309
01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 1: be the most resource efficient, particularly when you realize that

1310
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:33,360
Speaker 1: we can actually regenerate damage farmlands and and uh, there

1311
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,439
Speaker 1: was there was some analysis that looked at Impossible Burger

1312
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: and they asked a question, well, because this is relying

1313
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: on synthetic chemical inputs, this thing really isn't sustainable, how

1314
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: would you make it sustainable? You would have to use

1315
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:53,520
Speaker 1: regeneratively managed livestock to maintain the land that the impossible

1316
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: burger stuff is raised on. And so it becomes a

1317
01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: little bit of a it's like you're going through a

1318
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: maze and you really don't want to find the answers,

1319
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 1: but those were the answers. Something that looks like a

1320
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:10,639
Speaker 1: a large animal centric, grass based food system, fruits, vegetables,

1321
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 1: nut seeds that kind of rounded out um that ends

1322
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:17,160
Speaker 1: up being the win or whether we're talking about energy inputs,

1323
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 1: ecological considerations, economic considerations. But man, it's a it's a

1324
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: lot of work to unpack that, and it's a pretty

1325
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 1: controversial topic for sure. Yeah. Yeah, as you guys well know,

1326
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: um three underpages the plus pages of of unpacking that

1327
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 1: in the book. And I think part of what what

1328
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: you said Diane about low income folks going to school

1329
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 1: and being and and and kind of being prescribed a

1330
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 1: diet or being being talked about this is and you know,

1331
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: around that noble idea. I think it's easy for people

1332
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:50,559
Speaker 1: to accept when they're eating that if they're being told

1333
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 1: what they're eating is noble. But how many how many

1334
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:57,560
Speaker 1: people do you think think about anything past is it affordable?

1335
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 1: How quickly. Can I get it? How is it? I

1336
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 1: think that's you know, what's the easiest way to feed myself.

1337
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: And then if somebody rubber stamps it that it's healthy

1338
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 1: and good for the environment, that's as much thinking as

1339
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. I can't go past the rubber stamp.

1340
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: I don't have time. And these other factors that that

1341
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about so complex, our secondary tertiary and on

1342
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 1: down the line. Um. I think that point came came

1343
01:14:23,479 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 1: through well with what you were saying with those kids

1344
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: in New York. Yeah, and um, I mean you know

1345
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: when when coronavirus happened, we were really nervous, you know,

1346
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 1: because it's not easy to put out a book in

1347
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,679
Speaker 1: a film when you know everyone's just sort of glued

1348
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 1: to CNN and and you know whatever is going on

1349
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 1: with the pandemic. But what we've seen, Um, so the

1350
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,560
Speaker 1: farm I live on, we do a vegetables CSA, so

1351
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:50,760
Speaker 1: people join and you know, get their vegetables every week. Um,

1352
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:52,760
Speaker 1: and we do a meet c s A two and

1353
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 1: um we are completely sold out for the whole rest

1354
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 1: of the year. And now we're booking our slaughter dates

1355
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,680
Speaker 1: for one before the animals are even born. And and

1356
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: we've got there's a major bottlenecks with the small scale

1357
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 1: slaughter industry, especially here in New England, but all over

1358
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 1: the country. I've never seen such a high interest in

1359
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 1: where your food is coming from. Everyone I've talked to

1360
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 1: that is a producer that deals directly with their consumers

1361
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:24,520
Speaker 1: is having the same year that we're having. It's absolutely amazing.

1362
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: And um, and I think that you know, these slaughterhouses

1363
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:32,560
Speaker 1: that are shutting down, UM, it's really highlighting the fragility

1364
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,599
Speaker 1: of our industrial system and um, you know, between how

1365
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,479
Speaker 1: the workers are treated and um, you know, just a

1366
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: handful of companies controlling our entire meat supply and how

1367
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 1: dangerous that is from a national security perspective. UM. And

1368
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 1: so what Rob and I are arguing for in our

1369
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 1: book has actually never been more relevant. So, I mean,

1370
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 1: we we've been trying. Uh you know, there's this one

1371
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 1: conference that we've been going to year after year, and

1372
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 1: it started out with Rob and I in like three

1373
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: people in the room. UM, and now it just it

1374
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:08,640
Speaker 1: seems like people because it's actually happening to them now,

1375
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 1: because they're being told they can only buy a couple

1376
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 1: of packages of meat in the store. I mean it's

1377
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 1: not everywhere, but in a lot of places I've seen that. Uh, folks,

1378
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:21,680
Speaker 1: it's it's actually an amazing opportunity right now to be

1379
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 1: encouraging more regional, you know, sustainable food systems. Yeah that

1380
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 1: do you ever just think like I was right? I

1381
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:34,640
Speaker 1: told you we do that occasionally. We do occasionally of

1382
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 1: the time we think we're crazy and I'm texting Rob like,

1383
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:39,560
Speaker 1: this is such a bad idea. Why don't you know.

1384
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 1: At the end of the book, we have this thing

1385
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: that is almost kind of like the Prepper Checklist. And

1386
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: it was funny because we were kind of like back

1387
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:50,640
Speaker 1: and forth on including it, but I felt really strongly

1388
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 1: about it. Our publisher was kind of like, you guys

1389
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 1: are nuts, but it was, you know, don't be in

1390
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 1: debt and have some food on hand and have your

1391
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 1: you know, have some backup water it And this is

1392
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 1: like I have good friends that live in Louisiana and

1393
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:06,120
Speaker 1: they're facing down another you know, either tropical storm or hurricane.

1394
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 1: So this is just kind of some background stuff that

1395
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: most people should should think about having a little food

1396
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 1: and water on hand, having some cash dash somewhere, and

1397
01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And then Corona hit and like Diana

1398
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:23,640
Speaker 1: before before, and when you look at all of the

1399
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 1: failure points that people had in this scenario, like that

1400
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 1: book was just a manifesto, Like if if the book

1401
01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 1: had been released a year prior and people had followed that,

1402
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: they knock on wood. Very very fortunate. But because I'm

1403
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 1: kind of a doomsday bunker nutcase, like this thing didn't

1404
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 1: affect me that much because I've sacrificed elsewhere to kind

1405
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 1: of prepare for that potential rainy day. So psychologically it

1406
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 1: wasn't a surprise. I'm like, oh, of course a pandemic happened,

1407
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:54,400
Speaker 1: Like it's either that or a hurricane or a comet strike,

1408
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: Like it's going to be one of the three, you know,

1409
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 1: And so I didn't have that moment of fear and panic.

1410
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,439
Speaker 1: It was just like, Okay, well we're going to figure

1411
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 1: out how to navigate this and just what we're gonna do.

1412
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 1: And again, very fortunate to be in that position, but

1413
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,880
Speaker 1: it was also twelve years of researching this stuff and

1414
01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 1: thinking about it and allocating some resources into preparing for that. Yeah, no,

1415
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,439
Speaker 1: I think for sure. I think we've had maybe thirty

1416
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,360
Speaker 1: guests on We did a day of the podcast for

1417
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 1: a while. So we've probably thirty guests on since the

1418
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: pandemic began and since we were locked down, and each

1419
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 1: one I say, hey, what's going on in your life?

1420
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,280
Speaker 1: Is there anything? And most of the people are all hunters,

1421
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 1: outdoors been people that kind of follow the same lifestyle

1422
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 1: most for most of the that I do. And most

1423
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 1: of them, yeah, we're good. It's not even it's not

1424
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 1: a conversation. It's like we're running out to to do things.

1425
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: And I had my friend, doctor Robert C. Jones, who's

1426
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 1: a vegan philosopher. Um, I used to be at a

1427
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 1: Chico State University but he's moved on, but he's a professor,

1428
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,639
Speaker 1: and I asked him what's going on. He said, well,

1429
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking at more how to be more self sufficient,

1430
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 1: and um, I want to change. I got to change

1431
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:01,600
Speaker 1: my own battery in my car the other day and

1432
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:03,919
Speaker 1: that's the first step to be in more self sufficient.

1433
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:08,040
Speaker 1: So I think we're in the time of self sufficiency right. Definitely, definitely.

1434
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: And I mean, um, you know, living on a farm

1435
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 1: and and and uh, it's been a joy for my

1436
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 1: kids and to be to be stuck at home without school, um,

1437
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 1: and it's just a really nice life to be able

1438
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 1: to give them, and um, you know they're out there,

1439
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 1: um taking care of uh little bunnies that are that

1440
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 1: are trying to eat the lettuce and stuff like that,

1441
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: and people just don't have any idea. And I mean

1442
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: we're in suburban Boston and my kids running around with

1443
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:41,479
Speaker 1: his little um pellet gun, you know. Um, but you

1444
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:43,840
Speaker 1: know lots of things have to die in order for

1445
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: your lettuce to be here. Yes. Amen, you guys want

1446
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the term neutral tag

1447
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 1: you Diana, Yeah, if you're gonna take that one. Um.

1448
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:58,719
Speaker 1: So we just decided, you know, a lot of books

1449
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 1: that I read about food systems and things like that,

1450
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: I kept like flipping to the back and like, well,

1451
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 1: what just tell me what to eat because there are

1452
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 1: those people. And right in the beginning of the book,

1453
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 1: we actually have like this quick reference guide where you

1454
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,720
Speaker 1: can sort of choose your own adventure, like okay, me

1455
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:15,560
Speaker 1: gives me cancer page what you know, um, And so

1456
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:17,519
Speaker 1: at the very end of that list, it's like, just

1457
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 1: tell me what to eat? Okay, what we have that too,

1458
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 1: And so we put together this nutrition sort of prescription

1459
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 1: for folks um and it really just takes the emotion

1460
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,839
Speaker 1: out of it. And let's just look at nutrient density

1461
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: and what does that look like if you were to

1462
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,719
Speaker 1: try to construct the most nutrient dense diet for humans,

1463
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 1: what is that? And could it could it be possible

1464
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 1: that maybe it also gies with everything else we said

1465
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 1: in the book, and yes it does. Um. And so

1466
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 1: when you look at you know, plants versus animals, it's

1467
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: largely animal products that have the most nutrient density. And

1468
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:55,440
Speaker 1: that's you know, a lot of wild foods. Two oysters

1469
01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 1: are off the charts. Shellfish kind of tops everything. Um.

1470
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 1: You know, wild salmon is amazing um. And then um,

1471
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, when you get into the domesticated animals, it's

1472
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:11,639
Speaker 1: beef by far above pork and chicken. Um. And then

1473
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:14,400
Speaker 1: you know you could round that out with some uh,

1474
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, brightly colored vegetables. Keep things kind of simple.

1475
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,120
Speaker 1: We have this really nice meal matrix in there where

1476
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:23,639
Speaker 1: folks can you know, it's basically pick your protein um.

1477
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 1: And you know, we give examples, but folks, if you

1478
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:30,600
Speaker 1: don't like, you know, whatever, if you don't like hamburgers,

1479
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 1: you could just put in steaks or whatever it is, Uh,

1480
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 1: pick your protein, pick a fat source. Um that you know,

1481
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 1: brightly colored vegetables, and we gave some examples of vegetables

1482
01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:44,759
Speaker 1: that are particularly nutrient dense, like asparagus, red bell peppers,

1483
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:50,120
Speaker 1: things like that. UM and uh. So basically, once you

1484
01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:51,840
Speaker 1: take the emotion out of it and just try to

1485
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 1: construct you know, uh, an ideal diet for humans, it

1486
01:21:56,040 --> 01:22:00,360
Speaker 1: actually also completely jives with everything else we were saying

1487
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 1: in the book. Um, we do give some recommendations around um,

1488
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:07,680
Speaker 1: you know, baseline where you might start for carbs for

1489
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 1: folks that have been eating a lot of pasta and

1490
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:14,400
Speaker 1: bread and things like that. UM and UM. Largely people

1491
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 1: are also under eating protein, is what I found, especially

1492
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 1: women in my practice. So usually when I have a

1493
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 1: guy come in he wants to lose a little weight.

1494
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 1: If I just give him permission to eat more meat,

1495
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: there's like no argument. He's running out the door and

1496
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 1: he's just all psyched about it. Um. For women, it's

1497
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 1: a little harder because meat, you know you had mentioned

1498
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 1: the beginning, like you know, meat has become the sort

1499
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:40,080
Speaker 1: of skategoat um. And there's there's a lot of reasons

1500
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 1: why meat in particular has been uh demonized and um,

1501
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: it represents blood you know, there's a lot of things

1502
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 1: as a woman that that um make it particularly more

1503
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 1: difficult to eat something red and bloody looking that's on

1504
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 1: a bone. Um. You know, we're just sort of conditioned that,

1505
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, a boneless, skinless piece of chicken is more

1506
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:03,600
Speaker 1: feminine to eat because you eat that like on a

1507
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 1: salad and has no fat and it's okay. UM. So

1508
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:08,640
Speaker 1: I really try to make a case for women in

1509
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:13,280
Speaker 1: particular to like reclaim meat and be unapologetic about you know,

1510
01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 1: eating more, getting more iron and really just feeling okay

1511
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:20,240
Speaker 1: about that. Um. And actually speaking of that, Rob and

1512
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:23,720
Speaker 1: I also have just finished recording a course called Meat

1513
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 1: Curious and UM. It's uh for folks that are just

1514
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:31,080
Speaker 1: maybe they went flexitarian, maybe they're nervous about eating meat,

1515
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 1: or maybe they're an ex vegan or vegetarian and they

1516
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:35,560
Speaker 1: just need a little more hand holding. And so we

1517
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 1: actually have a whole course for folks where Rob and

1518
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:42,920
Speaker 1: I walk everyone through, Okay, so here's your concern, here's

1519
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,360
Speaker 1: how we're going to address it. And um. And again

1520
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 1: there's special concerns when folks have been a vegetarian or

1521
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: vegan UM with social situations, their friend group, you know,

1522
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 1: sort of ostracizing them there. There's there's special considerations there

1523
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,720
Speaker 1: as well. So um yeah, the neutral war diet, I

1524
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:02,839
Speaker 1: mean it's very similar to a whole thirty keto paleo

1525
01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:08,040
Speaker 1: type thing. Um, you know, just really reducing your process

1526
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 1: food and take and just eating as much like natural

1527
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:15,320
Speaker 1: foods and really prioritizing that protein. Did you, guys, Diana,

1528
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 1: did you listen to the Wilkes versus Crasher debate on

1529
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. I'm sure you both did. I'm sure because

1530
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:27,639
Speaker 1: I know you guys know Chris, Um, yeah, I want

1531
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 1: to kind of crack that open a little bit part

1532
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:31,880
Speaker 1: of you know something For me, I'm not really I'm

1533
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:34,640
Speaker 1: not at all educated about these much like Joe. Him

1534
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:38,120
Speaker 1: and I are both kind of similarly intrigued and know

1535
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:40,240
Speaker 1: that these are important topics, and we're both hunters and

1536
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,559
Speaker 1: we kind of understand the value and proximity to food

1537
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:47,000
Speaker 1: and we can go through that. But I part of

1538
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 1: that was like the value of data, the value of

1539
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:54,799
Speaker 1: eid epidemiology, talking past each other in so many ways,

1540
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:59,559
Speaker 1: And that's one thing after listening to that particular conversation, UM,

1541
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 1: that I wanted to avoid as we explore This is

1542
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,360
Speaker 1: two guys who know a lot more than the than

1543
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:11,480
Speaker 1: the listener arguing about which epidemiology study is more effective?

1544
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 1: Um and and so, Diana, can you talk a little

1545
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 1: bit about that, how you communicate these things simply? I

1546
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 1: think neutralo is a great way to do it. These

1547
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,160
Speaker 1: diet solutions are a great way to do it. But

1548
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: rather than just try to break down the complexity of

1549
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 1: hem iron um for folks in in data versus data,

1550
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:32,280
Speaker 1: there's got to be a more simplistic way or maybe

1551
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 1: a more gentle to talk about it. Yeah, I mean

1552
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:39,280
Speaker 1: I think that, Um, A lot of this comes down

1553
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,960
Speaker 1: to worldview and just how you see the world. Are

1554
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 1: we here as just part of the are we a

1555
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:49,479
Speaker 1: peace in the web of nature? And um and here

1556
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:52,880
Speaker 1: just as as an animal? Or are we here on

1557
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:56,800
Speaker 1: top of the pyramid to dominate everyone else, including uh,

1558
01:25:57,120 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 1: you know, those who might not have as much access

1559
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 1: to two things as we do. And is our job

1560
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:08,519
Speaker 1: done to go around and enlighten everybody else with our enlightenment? Right? Um?

1561
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 1: And so I think you know, if if someone comes

1562
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:16,599
Speaker 1: at this from a humble position where they're um, open

1563
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 1: minded and want to truly get to the bottom of

1564
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:26,680
Speaker 1: it and and explore the truth and um, you know,

1565
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 1: instead of walking into this assuming that they have the

1566
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 1: answer already. UM. Like Rob and I really did try

1567
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,040
Speaker 1: to prove ourselves wrong throughout the entire book. And you know,

1568
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,320
Speaker 1: we learned a few cases where we were like, wow,

1569
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: that data doesn't support what we thought here. Um and uh.

1570
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:46,560
Speaker 1: And so we're just really honest about that. And I

1571
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:50,599
Speaker 1: think if you're a true scientist, UM, that's the way

1572
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 1: you have to operate, right, And you're always trying to

1573
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:55,800
Speaker 1: prove yourself wrong, trying to be as open minded as

1574
01:26:55,840 --> 01:27:01,479
Speaker 1: you can and understanding that you're like this, and uh,

1575
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 1: in the grand scheme of things, I don't know, Robb,

1576
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:05,600
Speaker 1: you probably have a much more ELK finances. Don't know

1577
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:08,559
Speaker 1: that was phenomenal, but I mean it, It is tough.

1578
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,640
Speaker 1: We live in a very data centric world, you know,

1579
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:14,160
Speaker 1: like we try to make all kinds of decisions around

1580
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:20,560
Speaker 1: economics and resources and and uh, you know, the the

1581
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: data involved with that is is no joke. And and

1582
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:29,080
Speaker 1: because gosh, there's I want to say, like two thousand seventeen,

1583
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:32,720
Speaker 1: there were thirty thousand peer reviewed journals on type two

1584
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 1: diabetes alone. So that's a number. Um, of all of

1585
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 1: human knowledge has been accumulated in the last two years.

1586
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:46,599
Speaker 1: And this is that More's law thing, where like things

1587
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:48,519
Speaker 1: get cheaper and better and we learn more and more

1588
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:50,640
Speaker 1: things like our cell phones are are way better and

1589
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 1: all that, but every two years our information is going

1590
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,639
Speaker 1: to increase by this exponential you know factor, and it's

1591
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,160
Speaker 1: impossible to stay on top of all that stuff. So

1592
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:04,760
Speaker 1: from there, I think that this is where these big

1593
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:09,760
Speaker 1: picture heuristics, you know, kind of simple stories that you

1594
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:12,679
Speaker 1: can't make too simple and you can't etch them into

1595
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 1: stone and tournamentto religious doctrine because then you you kind

1596
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:19,639
Speaker 1: of get trapped. But these big picture heuristics are really

1597
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:24,080
Speaker 1: helpful for at least making an inroad into understanding what's

1598
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 1: going on. And this is where that kind of like

1599
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:31,599
Speaker 1: ecology ancestral health, Like we're people dying in the droves

1600
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:35,680
Speaker 1: two hundred years ago from high meat consumption. No like

1601
01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:38,960
Speaker 1: they cardiovascar disease was lower, cancer was lower, you know,

1602
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 1: on and on and on, and we have, uh, you know,

1603
01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 1: lots of different kind of kind of natural experiments that

1604
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 1: that unpack all that stuff. But then we marched this

1605
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:52,439
Speaker 1: thing forward in our people generally healthier now that we

1606
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:57,879
Speaker 1: eat a more industrialized diet. No, like we've twentieth century,

1607
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 1: we largely won the battle against an infectious disease. The

1608
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:03,519
Speaker 1: twenty first century is going to be a story of

1609
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: battling chronic degenerative disease. That Congressional Budget Office predicts somewhere

1610
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:12,799
Speaker 1: between which they originally made this prediction in two thousand

1611
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: and six, and so it seemed a lot further away.

1612
01:29:14,920 --> 01:29:20,160
Speaker 1: It's not that far away now. But we're effectively bankrupt

1613
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: in the US from diabesity related costs alone, and you know,

1614
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: there's lots of opinions about how to best unpack that.

1615
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:35,280
Speaker 1: But this, this very vegan centric model has taken things over,

1616
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 1: and so it it paints traditional food systems and are

1617
01:29:39,360 --> 01:29:41,960
Speaker 1: really poor light. And so although it's it's difficult to

1618
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:46,400
Speaker 1: unpack the difference between like a correlation versus causation study,

1619
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 1: Like when when it's said that meat is associated with

1620
01:29:50,280 --> 01:29:54,440
Speaker 1: cancer the same way that cigarettes are, it's it's challenging

1621
01:29:54,520 --> 01:29:58,040
Speaker 1: to unpack what that really means, like tobacco consumption increases

1622
01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:01,600
Speaker 1: the likelihood of developing various types of cancer by like

1623
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:08,200
Speaker 1: ten percent. These terribly produced epidemiological studies, if you believe

1624
01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:11,320
Speaker 1: the information that comes out of them it changes things

1625
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:14,640
Speaker 1: by like one or two percent. And even then we

1626
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:16,880
Speaker 1: could make the argument that that and that data has

1627
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 1: just been tortured to to beat the band and in

1628
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:25,400
Speaker 1: correlation studies, if it doesn't reach, then it's it's noise.

1629
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 1: It's just noise. But this stuff has been institutionalized and

1630
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 1: accepted as as if it were like gold standard randomized

1631
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 1: controlled trial research. But again to your point, like, that's

1632
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:40,679
Speaker 1: a lot to unpack and and uh, I do think

1633
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:43,160
Speaker 1: though that running some of this stuff through like the

1634
01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 1: big picture heuristic model helps people just at least get

1635
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 1: a foothold on what's going on. And then we really

1636
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:55,080
Speaker 1: couch this as experiment. Do thirty days of vegan or

1637
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 1: ninety days and see how you look, feel and perform.

1638
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:00,880
Speaker 1: Take some blood work and then do something that looks

1639
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:03,560
Speaker 1: like this neutral board gig. And while you're doing it,

1640
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 1: set up some performance standards for yourself, like get a

1641
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:10,000
Speaker 1: heavy backpack and see what you know, what's your best

1642
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 1: BIB mile time with like a sixty pound backpack, and

1643
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,400
Speaker 1: do it while vegan, and do it while neutra bor

1644
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:18,519
Speaker 1: and see how those two things play out. And then

1645
01:31:18,560 --> 01:31:20,599
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. It's not my opinion,

1646
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,920
Speaker 1: it's not Diana's opinion. It's your personal experience of what

1647
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:27,679
Speaker 1: ends up working best for you. But to get people there,

1648
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 1: we do oftentimes need these these big picture models to

1649
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 1: even make the case for like, well, why would I

1650
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:35,280
Speaker 1: do this versus that? And I think that that's where

1651
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: they're helpful. Yeah, I'm really glad to hear you say that.

1652
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:41,280
Speaker 1: That's very valuable to me as someone who says, yes,

1653
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:45,200
Speaker 1: there is a lot of vegan and vegetarian literature. There's

1654
01:31:45,200 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 1: a Game Changer's documentary, there's a Sacred Cow documentary. This

1655
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 1: has become something where you have to take a side,

1656
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:54,680
Speaker 1: and that's just not generally true. And that's why, and

1657
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 1: that's why, you know, we don't have time to break

1658
01:31:56,800 --> 01:31:59,720
Speaker 1: down every single thing that's in Sacred Cow. But one

1659
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:02,040
Speaker 1: thing I appreciate about that as I knew that would

1660
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 1: be your answer, because in reading it, it's clear that

1661
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 1: it's like, we have to understand kind of the structure

1662
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:10,240
Speaker 1: in which we're going to form our opinions here before

1663
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:13,720
Speaker 1: we dive into it is very specific um sometimes very

1664
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 1: confusing even for experts. Absolutely, we give an example of

1665
01:32:21,040 --> 01:32:23,600
Speaker 1: grass World in the beginning of the environmental section, to

1666
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 1: just help people understand why something like biodiversity and ecosystem

1667
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 1: function is so critical. Um. And I think if if

1668
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:36,639
Speaker 1: everyone just looked at food systems through that lens and said, Okay,

1669
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:40,720
Speaker 1: is this is this contributing or taking away from soil health?

1670
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 1: Is this contributing to having more life you know? Or

1671
01:32:44,840 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 1: is this actually, you know, a system that only has

1672
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,519
Speaker 1: one thing growing for miles and miles and miles um.

1673
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,639
Speaker 1: And so once you start understanding um, like Rob was saying,

1674
01:32:55,720 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 1: the thermodynamics of the processes, and understand that all we

1675
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:03,960
Speaker 1: have is the sun for energy, and so the most

1676
01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:06,400
Speaker 1: efficient possible thing we can do is use the sun

1677
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:09,759
Speaker 1: as directly as possible and have a few steps between

1678
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:15,760
Speaker 1: that food item and the consumer. The better. Yeah, it's

1679
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,400
Speaker 1: it's a great point. And I think even in you know,

1680
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 1: at the end of your book, one thing I jotted down,

1681
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 1: as you said, it's it's it's basic human nature for

1682
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:25,720
Speaker 1: us to create like us versus them scenarios and then

1683
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:28,240
Speaker 1: project our fears on the two objects other than the

1684
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 1: real problems, right. And I think that's I've highlighted that

1685
01:33:32,439 --> 01:33:33,960
Speaker 1: and made a note of that because I think that

1686
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:36,120
Speaker 1: that is at the core of what we're talking about here.

1687
01:33:36,439 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 1: Um Worth this book, what you're doing, and I know

1688
01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:42,240
Speaker 1: what the documentary will do is kind of fight against that.

1689
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:46,599
Speaker 1: That inclination is to say like, there's more to see here,

1690
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,479
Speaker 1: There's way, there's way more to see here. And I

1691
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:51,960
Speaker 1: think for most people that's the that's the starting point

1692
01:33:52,040 --> 01:33:54,800
Speaker 1: that they need, and then they can get into making

1693
01:33:55,560 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 1: the right decision on what we've already said here is

1694
01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:04,840
Speaker 1: completely is it socioeconomics and economics and paleo anthropology, and

1695
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:07,519
Speaker 1: on and on you go down the list. So um,

1696
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:09,880
Speaker 1: I just want to say that I appreciate that, and

1697
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: I think hopefully listeners can take a step back and

1698
01:34:13,120 --> 01:34:16,160
Speaker 1: say like, let me get context here, let me get

1699
01:34:16,320 --> 01:34:19,760
Speaker 1: my worldview and check because I came to your book

1700
01:34:20,240 --> 01:34:21,920
Speaker 1: and came to the discussion that you listened to on

1701
01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 1: our podcast last time as someone through hunting that has

1702
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:28,840
Speaker 1: learned about biodiversity and ecology and has learned about ecosystem

1703
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 1: health and ecosystem services that different wildlife species are there.

1704
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:37,120
Speaker 1: That's their job, and so I come to this looking

1705
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 1: for that to be reflected. Let's say I have lived

1706
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:41,960
Speaker 1: in l A and I worked in tech, I would

1707
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: probably be looking for the ideologies and kind of the

1708
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:49,040
Speaker 1: core ideas there to be reflected in these solutions. And

1709
01:34:49,120 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 1: I think that's a lot of times what's going on, UM.

1710
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 1: And I know ship and I know that's kind of

1711
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:56,200
Speaker 1: where this conversation is going for the most part, but

1712
01:34:56,200 --> 01:35:00,840
Speaker 1: I think that's just so important UM overall. Yeah, I

1713
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:03,560
Speaker 1: mean it's some days we've questioned whether or not this

1714
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,000
Speaker 1: was going to be career suicide. Like, um, despite what

1715
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:11,200
Speaker 1: some people may say, there are no big meat companies

1716
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:13,280
Speaker 1: waiting with the paycheck for us at the end of

1717
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:18,439
Speaker 1: the into this road. Like Diana has um, she it's

1718
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:23,160
Speaker 1: so much sacrifice, like personal sacrifice, financial sacrifice to get

1719
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 1: the film in particular done. Like I just can't even

1720
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:31,560
Speaker 1: describe how how much she individually is sacrificed. And I

1721
01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:34,040
Speaker 1: keep saying it again and again because nobody else has

1722
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 1: seen that story quite the way that that I have.

1723
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:39,280
Speaker 1: But the only upside of this, both Diana and I

1724
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: have kids, and we love helping people, but we also

1725
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:46,720
Speaker 1: love our our families and we want to provide an

1726
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 1: option for a better world. Quite honestly, not to get

1727
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 1: to to you know, airy ferry about it, but it's, uh,

1728
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 1: that's the thing that we really wanted to do. And

1729
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 1: if if it had been a deal where we dug

1730
01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 1: into this and even though we needed animal products for

1731
01:36:04,240 --> 01:36:07,400
Speaker 1: our health, if if we had dug into the literature

1732
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 1: and it had said, nope, it's unsustainable, it's unethical, it's

1733
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 1: it's not particularly healthy for most people, then I think

1734
01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 1: we would have produced something that was like, hey, there

1735
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 1: might be people out there like us that you maybe

1736
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 1: need to eat some animal products, but by and large

1737
01:36:22,640 --> 01:36:25,200
Speaker 1: people shouldn't. Then that's the book that we would have written.

1738
01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:28,400
Speaker 1: But that wasn't the case. And honestly, if if that

1739
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 1: had been where if that had been the book that

1740
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:32,400
Speaker 1: we had written, it would probably sell many more copies,

1741
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 1: have been a lot less controversial. But it's, uh, that

1742
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:38,559
Speaker 1: really wasn't where the data let us. And so we've

1743
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:41,679
Speaker 1: been thus far willing to kind of run that gauntlet

1744
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,080
Speaker 1: and and see how it goes. Yeah, yeah, is it?

1745
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:47,880
Speaker 1: That is it? You know, you think about your career, Diana,

1746
01:36:47,920 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 1: isn't it easier to kind of cordon off an audience

1747
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:52,559
Speaker 1: and say, like, I believe that you believe we're all together?

1748
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:55,799
Speaker 1: Isn't it easier to do that? And than to challenge

1749
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:59,160
Speaker 1: convention or even challenge kind of these ideas that we

1750
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:01,560
Speaker 1: all have to be within a niche or within some

1751
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:05,360
Speaker 1: sort of bubble. Oh yeah, I mean there's almost no dieticians.

1752
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:08,880
Speaker 1: Let's say it's okay to eat me period um, let

1753
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:13,160
Speaker 1: alone say it's sustainable. I mean that's crazy, um to

1754
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:15,559
Speaker 1: say those two things, and then you're gonna say it's

1755
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:19,160
Speaker 1: ethical to do that as well to kill beautiful animals.

1756
01:37:19,280 --> 01:37:25,559
Speaker 1: I mean, now you're you have three friends in the world. Um.

1757
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:29,920
Speaker 1: And so it's, uh, it'll be interesting to see. UM.

1758
01:37:30,280 --> 01:37:32,640
Speaker 1: I know that I'm gonna get pushed back from the

1759
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:36,160
Speaker 1: dietetics community. It's it's quite possible that my license will

1760
01:37:36,200 --> 01:37:41,120
Speaker 1: be challenged. Um. Uh. You know, but I feel like

1761
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:43,559
Speaker 1: as long as I can show evidence for my case,

1762
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 1: and I think we the book is pretty well cited,

1763
01:37:46,479 --> 01:37:49,800
Speaker 1: um as far as you know, backing up our position. UM.

1764
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 1: It just it makes so much sense to me that

1765
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 1: sometimes when I look at mainstream nutrition, I mean we um,

1766
01:37:57,680 --> 01:37:59,880
Speaker 1: Harvard School Public Health is right up the street for me.

1767
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:02,840
Speaker 1: And we actually did interview Walter Willett, who's like Mr

1768
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 1: Dietary Guidelines for the film. So I have a I

1769
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:08,719
Speaker 1: have a release from him. Um, but he's the he's

1770
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:11,479
Speaker 1: the main guy that is saying, you know, we need

1771
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:14,920
Speaker 1: more plant base, we need uh. This eat land set

1772
01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:21,479
Speaker 1: nutrition guide, which is basically a global dietary guideline. Um,

1773
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:24,960
Speaker 1: you can only eat less than a blueberry size worth

1774
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:27,560
Speaker 1: of red meat per person per day. That that's the

1775
01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:30,800
Speaker 1: recommendation here. Um. But I have him in the film

1776
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:35,040
Speaker 1: saying that farmers have known for thousands of years that

1777
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:36,920
Speaker 1: if you want to fatten up an animal, you put

1778
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:38,680
Speaker 1: them in a pen where they can't move very much,

1779
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:41,120
Speaker 1: and you feed them lots of grain. And humans are

1780
01:38:41,200 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 1: like that too. But when you look at the dietary

1781
01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:47,519
Speaker 1: recommendations that that that school is putting out and and

1782
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:51,439
Speaker 1: they're sponsored by Barilla, um it it is a very

1783
01:38:51,560 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 1: grain intensive diet that's you know, pretty low and saturated

1784
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:58,320
Speaker 1: fat and very low and animal products and um. So

1785
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:02,879
Speaker 1: this Uh, I don't know anyone else that is actually

1786
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:07,559
Speaker 1: advocating that meat is healthy. Um. It can be done

1787
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:09,880
Speaker 1: in environmental way, and it actually can be done in

1788
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:13,360
Speaker 1: an ethical way to like it's there's no other piece

1789
01:39:13,439 --> 01:39:16,840
Speaker 1: where this is. Um. All three all three of these

1790
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:21,599
Speaker 1: cases are made in one book. So we're just we're

1791
01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 1: bracing ourselves. Don't worry. That's that means you're doing it right.

1792
01:39:25,040 --> 01:39:28,559
Speaker 1: If you're that nervous, that means you're doing something right. Um.

1793
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 1: But I do think, like in general, America, I wonder

1794
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:34,559
Speaker 1: what Rob, if you could agree with this, America has

1795
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 1: done a pretty shitty job historically of suggesting dietary needs. Yeah,

1796
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 1: I mean, we we have a chapter devoted to that,

1797
01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:46,759
Speaker 1: and it's it's kind of interesting. I mean, it's interesting

1798
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:48,519
Speaker 1: to me, but a little bit of history around it.

1799
01:39:48,600 --> 01:39:50,519
Speaker 1: But there was a guy, ansel Keys that did some

1800
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:54,559
Speaker 1: research that suggested that higher fat diets and more animal

1801
01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 1: centric diets were more strongly correlated with cardiovascar disease and

1802
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:04,120
Speaker 1: cancers and host of different problems. Um. He originally was

1803
01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:07,439
Speaker 1: vilifying dietary cholesterol and then really early in his career

1804
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:10,800
Speaker 1: said no, dietary cholesterol is a non issue. But he

1805
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 1: still maintained this kind of, um vegetarian centric kind of orientation.

1806
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,240
Speaker 1: And they managed to kind of get involved with a

1807
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 1: governmental committee that was tasked originally with dealing with nutrient

1808
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:29,640
Speaker 1: deficiencies in the United States, and again they did a

1809
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 1: pretty good job of addressing the overt nutrient deficiencies, but

1810
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:37,200
Speaker 1: then they needed, you know, to justify their existence, and

1811
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:41,400
Speaker 1: so they decided to try to improve the overall health

1812
01:40:41,600 --> 01:40:46,040
Speaker 1: of folks in the United States. And one of the

1813
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 1: clerks that was involved with this this governmental process was vegetarian,

1814
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:56,920
Speaker 1: and they were able to really disproportionately influence kind of

1815
01:40:56,960 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 1: the language and the messaging. And there was enormous pushback

1816
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:03,160
Speaker 1: from the scientific community around this. They're like, you can't

1817
01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:06,040
Speaker 1: justify this with the science you're sighting, like, there's there's

1818
01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:10,560
Speaker 1: no justification for completely upending our our food systems with

1819
01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:13,720
Speaker 1: this stuff kind of got rammed through. And then it

1820
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 1: was right around this time, just a little bit on

1821
01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:20,080
Speaker 1: the heels of this, Richard Nixon was getting ready to

1822
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 1: be elected in his second term and he was really

1823
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:27,280
Speaker 1: in some pretty rough ground and he needed a group

1824
01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:30,080
Speaker 1: of people that were conservative and we're going to generally

1825
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:35,679
Speaker 1: support him, and they dramatically expanded the far subsidy program.

1826
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:41,400
Speaker 1: And the combination of kind of some messaging that fat,

1827
01:41:41,479 --> 01:41:46,080
Speaker 1: particularly animal fat was bad, and then the subsidies that

1828
01:41:47,040 --> 01:41:50,320
Speaker 1: it went into our food production system, we ended up

1829
01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:53,080
Speaker 1: with just massive amounts of kind of like corn and wheat,

1830
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 1: And this is when we figured out high fructose corn syrup,

1831
01:41:57,680 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: and we we effectively subsidize the the beginning of what

1832
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:04,760
Speaker 1: we would call like the junk food industry. And so

1833
01:42:04,920 --> 01:42:08,080
Speaker 1: it's there was no like evil cobble of people like

1834
01:42:08,360 --> 01:42:11,479
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, figuring this stuff out, but

1835
01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:15,000
Speaker 1: there was some really unfortunate circumstance that came together that

1836
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 1: brought us to this spot. And again, like each every

1837
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:21,640
Speaker 1: five years, I think they review the dietary guidelines like

1838
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:25,479
Speaker 1: they're being reviewed right now, and in that review process,

1839
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:28,760
Speaker 1: there is not a single paper that looks at this

1840
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:34,400
Speaker 1: from like the low carb perspective. The totality of low

1841
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:39,880
Speaker 1: carb dietary research has been excluded from the discussion around uh,

1842
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 1: these guidelines. I'm a big fan of low carb diets,

1843
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:45,920
Speaker 1: but I don't think that they're appropriate for everybody. Some

1844
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:48,559
Speaker 1: people thrive on them, some people don't. Really were Diana

1845
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:50,880
Speaker 1: and I are is that people need to really make

1846
01:42:50,920 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 1: sure to get adequate protein, and then whether you run

1847
01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:56,439
Speaker 1: better on fat or carbs is for you to kind

1848
01:42:56,479 --> 01:42:58,960
Speaker 1: of figure out, and it's fairly easy to do. But

1849
01:42:59,080 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 1: these dietary gidelines paint a very monochrome picture that um

1850
01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 1: animal products are bad, all fat is bad. Animal fat

1851
01:43:06,360 --> 01:43:10,640
Speaker 1: is bad, and uh, you know, it's it's costing us

1852
01:43:11,160 --> 01:43:14,640
Speaker 1: in so many different areas again like the diabetes epidemics,

1853
01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:20,880
Speaker 1: systemic inflammatory issues. The negative result of this um disinfectious disease,

1854
01:43:20,960 --> 01:43:25,000
Speaker 1: the COVID pandemic, was largely an outgrowth of a population

1855
01:43:25,080 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 1: that wasn't particularly healthy. Yeah. Yeah, And I think that's

1856
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:30,840
Speaker 1: we're always learning, We're always getting better at this. But

1857
01:43:30,920 --> 01:43:34,559
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of looking back on decades prior

1858
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:38,720
Speaker 1: and saying whoa, whoops, sorry, UM do this differently. So

1859
01:43:38,800 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 1: I think now one of the biggest benefits of what

1860
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 1: you guys are doing, and really what everyone that is doing,

1861
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:48,000
Speaker 1: including impossible foods, is it's it's it's causing people to

1862
01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 1: think hard about this and look at it. And um,

1863
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:55,479
Speaker 1: as people are thinking, Diana, do you you know how

1864
01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:57,760
Speaker 1: do you? I know the book goes through all of this,

1865
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:01,320
Speaker 1: but as people are thinking of about these steps to

1866
01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:04,120
Speaker 1: take and and is there a simple process you you know,

1867
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:07,320
Speaker 1: before they get to to the neutra war idea where

1868
01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 1: they're making you know that what am I going to

1869
01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:11,439
Speaker 1: eat today? When I'm making the next thirty days? Before

1870
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 1: they get to that or their ideas and processes that

1871
01:44:14,240 --> 01:44:17,160
Speaker 1: you like people to go through. Well, if there anything

1872
01:44:17,240 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 1: like me, and they unwrap all their Christmas presents and

1873
01:44:19,960 --> 01:44:23,040
Speaker 1: slide them out very carefully and then slide them back

1874
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:27,840
Speaker 1: in and make it look like no one actually unwrapped it. Um,

1875
01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:29,920
Speaker 1: so you can you can flip, you know, you can

1876
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:31,800
Speaker 1: choose your adventure. You can flip right to the back.

1877
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:35,040
Speaker 1: I do think it's very important that people understand the

1878
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:39,040
Speaker 1: nutrition case first, because we why grow food if it's

1879
01:44:39,040 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 1: not healthy to eat? You know, that should be the

1880
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:43,320
Speaker 1: number one thing. We don't have a problem in our

1881
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,840
Speaker 1: in our world with calorie production. We have a problem

1882
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 1: with nutrient production and protein production. Um, so there's there's

1883
01:44:51,080 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 1: there's more than enough calories. Hunger is a political issue

1884
01:44:55,320 --> 01:44:59,800
Speaker 1: and a distribution issue is not food production issue. Um.

1885
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:02,920
Speaker 1: You know. I think most people, uh, if they're new

1886
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 1: to this, they're likely wondering how they're gonna get skinnier

1887
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:09,240
Speaker 1: and get abs and you know, look better naked. That's

1888
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:13,080
Speaker 1: just like what you know, the the entry point is.

1889
01:45:13,280 --> 01:45:16,200
Speaker 1: And so if that's you know, what it is for them,

1890
01:45:16,240 --> 01:45:18,840
Speaker 1: then they can you know, start you know, eating a

1891
01:45:18,920 --> 01:45:21,759
Speaker 1: neutral diet and then then go back to the beginning

1892
01:45:21,920 --> 01:45:25,439
Speaker 1: and and read why. Uh So it really just all depends. Um.

1893
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:27,280
Speaker 1: A lot of the folks that Rob and I are

1894
01:45:27,320 --> 01:45:30,840
Speaker 1: speaking to are already pretty on board with meat is okay,

1895
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:33,920
Speaker 1: although there's still a ton that think we're eating way

1896
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:37,200
Speaker 1: too much, and um, you know, the reality is we

1897
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:41,759
Speaker 1: haven't increased our meat red meat consumption since nineteen seventy.

1898
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:45,040
Speaker 1: It's been going down. UM. So people are assuming that,

1899
01:45:45,200 --> 01:45:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's sitting down to like a seventy two

1900
01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:50,800
Speaker 1: ounce tomahawk steak every night, but it's really only two

1901
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:54,559
Speaker 1: ounces of beef per person per day in the US. UM.

1902
01:45:54,760 --> 01:45:56,800
Speaker 1: So this assumption that well, of course we need to

1903
01:45:56,840 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: eat less meat. That's the first thing that I actually

1904
01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 1: really want to bust is that no, actually we most

1905
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:06,920
Speaker 1: people are not getting enough protein. The recommended daily intake

1906
01:46:07,000 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 1: of protein is way too low. Um. And the assumptions

1907
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,920
Speaker 1: around of that are are are just wrong. Um. It's

1908
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:16,880
Speaker 1: based on some pretty flawed science. And so um, just

1909
01:46:17,080 --> 01:46:20,600
Speaker 1: jacking up your protein intake and eating, um, eating some

1910
01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:23,960
Speaker 1: more animal protein is going to make you feel so

1911
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:27,800
Speaker 1: much better because it's the most satiating of the macronutrients

1912
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 1: and it's also animal flesh is the is the most

1913
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:35,200
Speaker 1: nutrient dense, UM, protein source and so um. You know

1914
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:38,639
Speaker 1: for most every single part. I've never had someone come

1915
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:42,800
Speaker 1: into my office that was eating adequate or optimal protein. Um.

1916
01:46:43,160 --> 01:46:46,080
Speaker 1: And uh, you'll have more energy, you'll sleep better. I mean,

1917
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:48,960
Speaker 1: you'll you'll build more muscle. It's it's just a no

1918
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:52,240
Speaker 1: brainer to just you know, eat a little more protein. Um.

1919
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:55,360
Speaker 1: As you're reading the book, maybe um with each page,

1920
01:46:55,439 --> 01:46:57,720
Speaker 1: just take a bite. Yeah. I Mean. One of the

1921
01:46:57,760 --> 01:46:59,760
Speaker 1: reason i want to ask that question or just kind

1922
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:01,960
Speaker 1: of like probe that a little bit, is because I've

1923
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 1: been talking to family members, friends about Impossible Burger. A

1924
01:47:04,720 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 1: lot of people I know, of course listen to the podcast.

1925
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 1: I want to talk about it, including listeners um that

1926
01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:13,200
Speaker 1: are you know come back every show and write his emails.

1927
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:16,559
Speaker 1: And a big thing that I saw, especially with folks

1928
01:47:16,640 --> 01:47:19,200
Speaker 1: i've in my family, is that the first thing I

1929
01:47:19,240 --> 01:47:21,519
Speaker 1: want to talk about is how amazing it is that

1930
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:24,200
Speaker 1: you're eating plants and it bleeds and tastes like meat.

1931
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:27,599
Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, that's the most That's a psychological trick

1932
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:29,560
Speaker 1: they're playing on you. You're not talking about what it

1933
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:32,680
Speaker 1: is that you're eating, or where it came from, or

1934
01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:34,439
Speaker 1: any of the things that are kind of baked into

1935
01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:37,160
Speaker 1: that ideology. You're talking about how amazing it is that

1936
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:39,960
Speaker 1: this tastes like a hamburger, and that is ninety nine

1937
01:47:40,080 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 1: the impossible burger beyond burger conversation is how it tastes

1938
01:47:45,400 --> 01:47:48,920
Speaker 1: and how amazing it is. And that's to me the

1939
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:51,479
Speaker 1: wrong approach to to that. And I think maybe part

1940
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:54,840
Speaker 1: of the trick um and calling it a burger, well

1941
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:58,960
Speaker 1: it it is some really cool chemistry. But if saying

1942
01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 1: that is some really cool chemistry is kind of the

1943
01:48:02,160 --> 01:48:04,680
Speaker 1: high water mark for the food that you're eating, I

1944
01:48:04,720 --> 01:48:06,760
Speaker 1: don't know that we're really in a good spot at

1945
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:10,800
Speaker 1: that point, but I think that's happening. And this is

1946
01:48:10,880 --> 01:48:13,559
Speaker 1: coming from a chemist. I love chemistry, like it's super cool,

1947
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:16,760
Speaker 1: but I just don't know that, you know, a hat

1948
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:20,559
Speaker 1: tip towards good food chemists is really where we want

1949
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:23,200
Speaker 1: to be with our our food system. You know, a

1950
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:28,040
Speaker 1: hat tip towards the rancher, the farmer that like literally

1951
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:30,960
Speaker 1: sweat and bled to to you know, put food in

1952
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:34,800
Speaker 1: our plate and have people employed and and you know,

1953
01:48:35,080 --> 01:48:38,200
Speaker 1: improve the land that they are on. That's something I

1954
01:48:38,240 --> 01:48:40,519
Speaker 1: would feel good about. That's a story I would love

1955
01:48:40,600 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 1: to hear. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's just the thing.

1956
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:46,960
Speaker 1: That's what's happening though. And then it really is that

1957
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:49,679
Speaker 1: it for I think a normal person who isn't listening

1958
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:52,200
Speaker 1: to this podcast or who's who is a couple steps

1959
01:48:52,240 --> 01:48:54,880
Speaker 1: away from picking up your book and watching the documentary,

1960
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:59,439
Speaker 1: that's the conversation and Maestrong poll that came up every

1961
01:48:59,479 --> 01:49:02,759
Speaker 1: single time, how amazing, and that was it. Oh interesting,

1962
01:49:03,120 --> 01:49:05,680
Speaker 1: And it's this replacement theory that is the only thing

1963
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:08,280
Speaker 1: that matters if the idea that you guys approaching in

1964
01:49:08,320 --> 01:49:11,400
Speaker 1: the book is true, that the sacred cow does exist,

1965
01:49:11,520 --> 01:49:15,160
Speaker 1: that meat is bad. That idea seems so baked into

1966
01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:17,200
Speaker 1: folks now that they're just like, well, if it's not meat,

1967
01:49:17,320 --> 01:49:19,599
Speaker 1: it's this and how amazing that it still tastes like meat,

1968
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:24,639
Speaker 1: And that's the equation. Um, let's worrisome to me. Yeah,

1969
01:49:24,680 --> 01:49:26,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we need to get back to

1970
01:49:26,400 --> 01:49:30,759
Speaker 1: honoring rural life and honoring the people that are producing

1971
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:34,200
Speaker 1: the food. And it's time, you know that we get

1972
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:37,880
Speaker 1: over celebrity chefs and and elevate celebrity ranchers and farmers.

1973
01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:40,360
Speaker 1: And so that was one of the big reasons why

1974
01:49:40,400 --> 01:49:42,640
Speaker 1: I did the film as well. I knew that, um,

1975
01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, people are really disconnected from farming and ranching,

1976
01:49:45,880 --> 01:49:47,599
Speaker 1: and so if they're not going to go see a farm,

1977
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 1: which is what I prefer, then I'll just bring it

1978
01:49:50,240 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 1: to them. And so um, I you know again this

1979
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 1: rural urban um divide or the idea that you know

1980
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:00,599
Speaker 1: you haven't made it in your life if unless you've

1981
01:50:00,640 --> 01:50:02,519
Speaker 1: moved out of your small town and went and worked

1982
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:06,360
Speaker 1: in a bank, is like the you know, the goal

1983
01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 1: of every person and not to just you know, be

1984
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 1: a really great human and and maybe stick around and

1985
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:16,200
Speaker 1: and honor the place where you were born and um

1986
01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:19,280
Speaker 1: and work land. I mean, there needs to be more,

1987
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:24,400
Speaker 1: um more people celebrating that. Yeah, And I think hopefully

1988
01:50:24,479 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 1: this conversation, UM, I knew this would be inadequate to

1989
01:50:27,600 --> 01:50:29,720
Speaker 1: kind of cover everything. There's no way that we could

1990
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:31,920
Speaker 1: we could do it, but I hopefully this conversation for

1991
01:50:32,120 --> 01:50:33,800
Speaker 1: for those of you listening, kind of helps to set

1992
01:50:33,880 --> 01:50:35,800
Speaker 1: up this idea of how you would approach this book,

1993
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:37,840
Speaker 1: um when it comes out, and how you approach this

1994
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:41,760
Speaker 1: documentary or any documentary, any book that talks about food

1995
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:46,639
Speaker 1: systems or nutrition and covers these kind of developing sides

1996
01:50:46,760 --> 01:50:49,439
Speaker 1: of the story, so that that's what after making it

1997
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:51,479
Speaker 1: most of the way through your book and knowing that

1998
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:53,560
Speaker 1: I'll get to watch the documentary, my my fault was

1999
01:50:53,600 --> 01:50:56,120
Speaker 1: there's no way we can I mean each chapter would

2000
01:50:56,120 --> 01:50:59,320
Speaker 1: be an hour long conversation or more. Um, because I

2001
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:01,040
Speaker 1: know you guys work really hard on it, so hopefully

2002
01:51:01,080 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 1: everybody can get that. UM. And Rob, do you have

2003
01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:06,240
Speaker 1: any anything you kind of want to say in closing

2004
01:51:06,360 --> 01:51:09,160
Speaker 1: or want to direct people in terms of of of

2005
01:51:09,280 --> 01:51:13,160
Speaker 1: what's your work working all right now? No, just again

2006
01:51:13,320 --> 01:51:16,799
Speaker 1: really giving a hat tip to my co author Diana,

2007
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:20,080
Speaker 1: Like I just can't say enough how much she is

2008
01:51:20,240 --> 01:51:25,160
Speaker 1: personally sacrificed for this project. And you know, maybe we'll

2009
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:27,080
Speaker 1: make some money off the back end of the royalties

2010
01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:28,920
Speaker 1: on this. Like people have this sense that New York

2011
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:32,640
Speaker 1: Times bestsellers are are wealthy, but there's there's J. K.

2012
01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:37,040
Speaker 1: Rowling writing Harry Potter, and then there's a very long

2013
01:51:37,160 --> 01:51:39,800
Speaker 1: tale of people that that you know would have been

2014
01:51:39,840 --> 01:51:43,000
Speaker 1: better off, like being a greed er at Walmart. Probably

2015
01:51:43,120 --> 01:51:45,200
Speaker 1: we would have probably made money and the better money

2016
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:47,920
Speaker 1: in the long hole on that. But UM, just really

2017
01:51:48,000 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge Diana and the work that she's done

2018
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 1: on this. I also want to give a shout out

2019
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 1: to my nephew, Jackson Tura, who's birthday is coming up

2020
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:58,559
Speaker 1: and he is like the biggest fan of you guys

2021
01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:01,200
Speaker 1: that has ever exists. It's I wanted to sneak that

2022
01:52:01,400 --> 01:52:05,000
Speaker 1: in there. Well, we're gonna get him surprise. If it's

2023
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:06,320
Speaker 1: not already on the way, it'll be on the way

2024
01:52:06,400 --> 01:52:09,280
Speaker 1: soon awesome. So shout out to him, and and thanks

2025
01:52:09,320 --> 01:52:11,160
Speaker 1: for spending all kinds of time with us. Hopefully it's

2026
01:52:11,160 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 1: worth it. Hugh John or thank you, No Diana, anything

2027
01:52:15,160 --> 01:52:17,000
Speaker 1: any want. I don't wanna say last words. That's the

2028
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 1: real quick yeah remarks words. Uh well, I I should

2029
01:52:27,920 --> 01:52:30,240
Speaker 1: just plug the website that we put together. It's Sacred

2030
01:52:30,280 --> 01:52:33,920
Speaker 1: cow dot info is the website where we actually have

2031
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:36,560
Speaker 1: a ton of blog posts. We have really great infographics

2032
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 1: that we made um that support each one of the

2033
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 1: water argument, the land used argument um, and so we

2034
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:46,120
Speaker 1: have information on the book there. Um. I'm not sure

2035
01:52:46,160 --> 01:52:47,880
Speaker 1: when this is going up, but we do have some

2036
01:52:48,040 --> 01:52:51,120
Speaker 1: really awesome offerings for folks that pre order it um.

2037
01:52:51,840 --> 01:52:54,200
Speaker 1: Just to get those order in in early UM. We're

2038
01:52:54,240 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 1: giving out some uh some footage that didn't make it

2039
01:52:57,040 --> 01:52:59,160
Speaker 1: into the film and things like that. Um, and maybe

2040
01:52:59,200 --> 01:53:01,760
Speaker 1: even a little sneak peek at the film for folks

2041
01:53:01,840 --> 01:53:04,200
Speaker 1: that pre order the book. Um, and then they can

2042
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:08,920
Speaker 1: follow along on Instagram. I'm at Sustainable Dish. So thank

2043
01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:11,920
Speaker 1: you so much. I really appreciate all the enthusiasm you

2044
01:53:12,040 --> 01:53:15,120
Speaker 1: have for this. It's really awesome. UM. We we hugely

2045
01:53:15,160 --> 01:53:17,479
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thank you well. Thank you for doing all

2046
01:53:17,520 --> 01:53:19,120
Speaker 1: the work and having all the knowledge and letting me

2047
01:53:19,200 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 1: come in and and and in part some of the

2048
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:24,680
Speaker 1: hard work that you've done. And I think that, Um,

2049
01:53:24,920 --> 01:53:27,000
Speaker 1: it's important. I always when we get in this topic

2050
01:53:27,080 --> 01:53:29,439
Speaker 1: on a hunting podcast, always have to stop and say, hey, everybody,

2051
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:31,600
Speaker 1: I know it's a hunting podcast, but I'm telling you,

2052
01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:34,800
Speaker 1: you gotta listen to this stuff. It's important. Um. It's

2053
01:53:34,840 --> 01:53:37,479
Speaker 1: important for lots and lots of reasons that we've already

2054
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:41,760
Speaker 1: discussed and we'll continue to discuss. So hopefully everybody look

2055
01:53:41,760 --> 01:53:43,639
Speaker 1: out for the book, look out for the documentary. We'll

2056
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:46,439
Speaker 1: keep you updated here. We're working on creating our own

2057
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:49,880
Speaker 1: book club, trying to be the Operah of hunting I

2058
01:53:49,960 --> 01:53:57,000
Speaker 1: can make that spans a lot of analogies Yeah. For me,

2059
01:53:57,120 --> 01:53:58,960
Speaker 1: it just means lots of giveaways in a book club.

2060
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:02,960
Speaker 1: But I mean that's that's where that's where I go. Um. Well,

2061
01:54:03,040 --> 01:54:05,439
Speaker 1: so thanks guys, I really really appreciate it once again,

2062
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:07,800
Speaker 1: and and your work is important in this time and

2063
01:54:07,880 --> 01:54:10,680
Speaker 1: it provides a lot of clarity to its a really

2064
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:13,320
Speaker 1: muddy issue for me personally. So I would say a

2065
01:54:13,360 --> 01:54:16,439
Speaker 1: personal thanks for sending me an advanced copy and let

2066
01:54:16,479 --> 01:54:27,439
Speaker 1: me dive in with you. Guys. Thank you. That's it.

2067
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:31,519
Speaker 1: That's all. Another episode in the books, thanks to Rob

2068
01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:35,080
Speaker 1: and Diana. Please go check them out. Sacred cal hopefully

2069
01:54:35,120 --> 01:54:39,640
Speaker 1: the upcoming documentary it's actually um. I was just finished

2070
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:43,000
Speaker 1: watching it. As I was saying earlier, it's um narrated

2071
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:47,520
Speaker 1: by Nick Offerman. Yes, Ron Swanson does a great job,

2072
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:49,520
Speaker 1: and I told him and I'm serious about this, Ron.

2073
01:54:49,560 --> 01:54:52,400
Speaker 1: If you're listening, speaking to you now, Ron, just you.

2074
01:54:53,160 --> 01:54:55,600
Speaker 1: If you're listening you want to go hunt? His name

2075
01:54:55,600 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 1: is Nick whatever, he knows what ye. If you're listening,

2076
01:55:00,640 --> 01:55:02,920
Speaker 1: Nick slash Roun. If you want to go hunting on

2077
01:55:03,000 --> 01:55:05,360
Speaker 1: your man, I'll take you and Phil at the same time,

2078
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:08,400
Speaker 1: teach you both hill grows mustache. That would be a dream. Experience.

2079
01:55:08,440 --> 01:55:12,480
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, would you promise to grow skimpy mickwek

2080
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:15,720
Speaker 1: stash back if we got Ron Swanson to come hunt

2081
01:55:15,720 --> 01:55:19,720
Speaker 1: with us? Easy? Oh easy, easy? Okay, start now. I

2082
01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:21,760
Speaker 1: actually owned one of his books. It's called Paddle Your

2083
01:55:21,800 --> 01:55:25,080
Speaker 1: Own Canoe? Oh read? What's it about? Is it an

2084
01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:29,000
Speaker 1: outdoors book? Yeah? Kind of nice. Well listen, Nick, I

2085
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 1: know you're in a sense you're probably listening. You're probably

2086
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 1: a big fan. Um, please let us know if you

2087
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:37,960
Speaker 1: want to go hunt with me and Phil, it'd be great.

2088
01:55:38,000 --> 01:55:40,960
Speaker 1: We have a good time. Um, So listen, We're gonna

2089
01:55:40,960 --> 01:55:42,880
Speaker 1: continue to talk about Regina vag I'll tell you what.

2090
01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:47,240
Speaker 1: As I watched the documentary Sacred Cow, there's a lot

2091
01:55:47,280 --> 01:55:50,280
Speaker 1: of stuff in there that I thought was was good

2092
01:55:50,360 --> 01:55:53,160
Speaker 1: to continue talking about it, continue thinking about a couple

2093
01:55:53,200 --> 01:55:56,400
Speaker 1: of quotes that that I thought were interesting. The anti

2094
01:55:56,520 --> 01:55:59,440
Speaker 1: meat movement is a well intentioned reaction to the abuses

2095
01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:03,400
Speaker 1: of a dysfunctional system. The first time I had heard

2096
01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:06,520
Speaker 1: the anti meat movement. You heard that film, Joe, Have

2097
01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:09,000
Speaker 1: you heard that anti meat movement? I didn't know that

2098
01:56:09,120 --> 01:56:12,040
Speaker 1: that was the thing, But it's the movement. We've covered it,

2099
01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:15,560
Speaker 1: and so it's real. Um, it's a debate about our planet,

2100
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:19,720
Speaker 1: our ethics, and our health. Vegans and responsible farmers and

2101
01:56:19,760 --> 01:56:23,400
Speaker 1: livestock grows have a lot in common. They're both making

2102
01:56:23,480 --> 01:56:27,040
Speaker 1: reactions to the same evil, which is kind of what

2103
01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:29,480
Speaker 1: I think, what I thought all along. So hopefully we

2104
01:56:29,520 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 1: continue to move that conversation down the road. But next week,

2105
01:56:34,240 --> 01:56:37,160
Speaker 1: next week, big thing, next week, Joe, tell us about

2106
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 1: next week, buddy, because you were, you were there, weren't

2107
01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 1: you were? You were in the room. What's gonna happen

2108
01:56:43,000 --> 01:56:46,080
Speaker 1: next week? You're gonna listen to an amazing story from

2109
01:56:46,160 --> 01:56:53,440
Speaker 1: Mark Carter, professional snowboarder, awesome guy, all around, good dude. Yeah, big,

2110
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:56,560
Speaker 1: big fan, and he has a story to tell. Big fan.

2111
01:56:57,320 --> 01:56:59,880
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Mark as a person. Now,

2112
01:57:00,680 --> 01:57:04,440
Speaker 1: it's complicated, like many things, it's a very complicated story

2113
01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:07,480
Speaker 1: that he's gonna tell you next week. Um, you can't

2114
01:57:07,520 --> 01:57:11,200
Speaker 1: give up two months though. No, Fortunately, unfortunately, listen, Mark

2115
01:57:11,320 --> 01:57:14,200
Speaker 1: was Mark is a convicted poacher and a felon that

2116
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:16,240
Speaker 1: gave up a lot, that gave it up. Damn it.

2117
01:57:16,840 --> 01:57:18,760
Speaker 1: I was trying to hold that in. No. I mean,

2118
01:57:18,800 --> 01:57:20,920
Speaker 1: I actually think it's good that you set that up

2119
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:23,960
Speaker 1: before people listen to this. It's hard. It's hard. I

2120
01:57:24,000 --> 01:57:25,440
Speaker 1: don't I don't know, Like when I was thinking about

2121
01:57:25,440 --> 01:57:27,200
Speaker 1: recording the intro for next week and what we would do,

2122
01:57:27,280 --> 01:57:28,680
Speaker 1: and I don't think we're going to record one. I

2123
01:57:28,720 --> 01:57:30,880
Speaker 1: think we're just gonna let it fly. It's hard to

2124
01:57:30,960 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: comment on this without know and maybe after the fact,

2125
01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:35,480
Speaker 1: well we'll add some of our own commentary and thoughts

2126
01:57:35,560 --> 01:57:38,720
Speaker 1: after you listen to Mark. But listen, Joe and I

2127
01:57:38,760 --> 01:57:40,360
Speaker 1: spent a couple of days in Bearer Country with Mark,

2128
01:57:40,440 --> 01:57:45,080
Speaker 1: hiking around. Had a blast. Um, he's an epic individual

2129
01:57:45,120 --> 01:57:46,560
Speaker 1: and you'll find out all the things that he does.

2130
01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:51,040
Speaker 1: He works with dozens of companies, he's one of the

2131
01:57:51,080 --> 01:57:54,680
Speaker 1: best snowboarders in the world. Um, he's just an all

2132
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:58,200
Speaker 1: around good dude. And that is mirrored by the fact

2133
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 1: that he did a pretty pretty bad thing and was

2134
01:58:00,360 --> 01:58:04,160
Speaker 1: punished harshly for it. And so it as we think

2135
01:58:04,200 --> 01:58:08,680
Speaker 1: about next week, you think about Cancel Culture. If if

2136
01:58:08,880 --> 01:58:12,520
Speaker 1: someone was going to get wrapped up in Cancel Culture version,

2137
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:16,560
Speaker 1: Mark Carter would be the one. Um, hopefully you'll listen

2138
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:18,520
Speaker 1: to this and don't think he deserves that, you think

2139
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:21,560
Speaker 1: that he's he's he has been punished is being punished,

2140
01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:23,560
Speaker 1: stood up for what he did and said, I did it,

2141
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:28,240
Speaker 1: hit me, punish me. I'll take it, um. But it's

2142
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:30,480
Speaker 1: it's it's not only his story, it's a commentary on

2143
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:32,120
Speaker 1: kind of where we are and how we treat people

2144
01:58:32,160 --> 01:58:35,880
Speaker 1: that have done wrong. And so I I mean, man,

2145
01:58:37,320 --> 01:58:38,640
Speaker 1: I was on a high for a couple of days

2146
01:58:38,680 --> 01:58:42,000
Speaker 1: after hearing his story, only because it's it's so tough

2147
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 1: for a guy like that. I think this podcast next

2148
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:45,880
Speaker 1: week would be the first time that he spoke about

2149
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:48,080
Speaker 1: it publicly in the detail that he did. And so

2150
01:58:48,880 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 1: it's important for a lot of reasons personally because I

2151
01:58:52,080 --> 01:58:53,520
Speaker 1: want you to get to know Mark as I did.

2152
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:56,680
Speaker 1: But secondary to that, I think it's a commentary on

2153
01:58:57,640 --> 01:58:59,880
Speaker 1: our culture and what we're doing to people that do

2154
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:03,080
Speaker 1: wrong and what they deserve and and um, how we

2155
01:59:03,120 --> 01:59:06,760
Speaker 1: should treat them after whether there is redemption available. So,

2156
01:59:06,960 --> 01:59:08,840
Speaker 1: as you can tell, I can probably talk about this forever,

2157
01:59:09,160 --> 01:59:11,800
Speaker 1: but we will say that to next week, episode one

2158
01:59:11,880 --> 01:59:14,640
Speaker 1: thirty one with Mark Carter. We'll see you then say bye, Phil,

2159
01:59:16,120 --> 01:59:21,680
Speaker 1: because I can't go a week without doing RNG oh

2160
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:32,080
Speaker 1: without right about drinking