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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and even Steve Bannon has denounced Trump

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Speaker 1: for meeting with Kanye and white nationalist Nick Fuentez. We're

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Speaker 1: back after the holiday with a super interesting show. Ross

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Speaker 1: Morales roquetto, co founder of Rum for Something, tells us

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Speaker 1: about how the down vallet midterm races shook out and

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Speaker 1: the interesting things he saw in local offices. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to you Dr Mark G. Lousteau, an expert on

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Speaker 1: Eastern European religion and politics, and what we can learn

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Speaker 1: from Hungary's authoritarianism. But first we have legendary democratic strategist

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Speaker 1: James Carville. Welcome back to Fast Politics, James Carvill, Well,

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Speaker 1: good to be here, Happy Thanksgiving. The news of the

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Speaker 1: weekend was the Trump Kanye Nick Fuentez dinner where Trump

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Speaker 1: didn't know him. You know, he accidentally had dinner with

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Speaker 1: a white supremacist and a man who has been on

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Speaker 1: anti Semitic terror for the last two weeks. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Why is anyone surprised? I'm been honest, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: this is terrible, But what is totally consistent with who

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Speaker 1: he is. Come on, he's still the presumptive nominee for

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party. Yeah, but I just think he's going

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Speaker 1: to be indicted, and I don't think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be very long for now, and I think the place

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Speaker 1: against him is so stunningly compelling. I don't I have

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Speaker 1: no idea. I guess they could delay it, but demorrow

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Speaker 1: Lago thing is just a straight line. The documents case. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he took something that didn't belong to him. Pople asked

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Speaker 1: Whitely to return it. He didn't return it. Then he

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Speaker 1: got a request that that if you returned everything, he

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Speaker 1: said yes, he didn't, then a subpoena. They still didn't

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Speaker 1: return it. I mean, I don't I have no idea

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Speaker 1: of what defense is available to him. I mean, anytime

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Speaker 1: you a lawyer a criminal case, the first thing he

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Speaker 1: or she thinks of is what defensives do I have?

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Speaker 1: I don't see where what defenses he is at all here?

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Speaker 1: But you have to get a better lawyer in me. Well,

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Speaker 1: Trumble was famous for not beaying people. Has paid this lawyer. Um.

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Speaker 1: He has put down an enormous three million dollar retainer

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Speaker 1: for for one of his lawyers, so he does clearly

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Speaker 1: know he's in trouble. I mean, theoretically you can run

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Speaker 1: for offers having been indicted. It's just a yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can run for offers from you can run for

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Speaker 1: president from being in jail. It's just to heavier left

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Speaker 1: right and evidence they have but that we don't even

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Speaker 1: know about. Staggering in front and counter may very well

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Speaker 1: bede him, but I don't know how Mr Smith. Let's

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Speaker 1: let's just pass from him. I don't think he can

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Speaker 1: but brush. I mean, if he's haven't done it with

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Speaker 1: Nick Flinty's, I guess who cares if he gets indicted?

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Speaker 1: If you stial with him after all that, I feel

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Speaker 1: like the fundamental issue is it's a math problem. Right

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Speaker 1: if you look at across the board, his numbers are

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Speaker 1: starting to weaken a little bit with Republicans, but if

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Speaker 1: you if you think about it, they're the way that

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Speaker 1: they choose delegates, buying Ladge is more winner take all

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Speaker 1: and Democrats are more proportional representation. Now, I don't understand

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Speaker 1: the party rules to degree, but I think it is

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Speaker 1: a general rule that is a fact. And so if

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Speaker 1: you have four people running and it's winner take all,

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Speaker 1: and you win forty to thirty eight to you know,

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Speaker 1: was at seventy eight to eleven to eleven. You get

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Speaker 1: all every delegate, right, So it their rules, they stay

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Speaker 1: the same kind of favor a person would have, would

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Speaker 1: have really deep level of support. He doesn't need half

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Speaker 1: right now. The way the Democrats do it, of course,

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Speaker 1: we've got every kind of rule with kicks in and

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Speaker 1: everything else is eleven eleven that generally roughly runs how

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Speaker 1: many delegates you get right, No, and it's much and

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Speaker 1: it's a sort of slower process too. Yes. And I

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Speaker 1: mean also there's going to be movement in the in

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Speaker 1: the Democratic primaries to write that they're going to change

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Speaker 1: up the states and how it all works right or

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Speaker 1: now after the Iowa caucus debacle. Yeah, that I think

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Speaker 1: they're not going to try to do something. But New

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Speaker 1: Hampshire I think is going to stay. Just that's like

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Speaker 1: like the super Bowl for you, but they're not gonna change. Well,

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Speaker 1: everybody wants it, right, Who done the VATA ships? Good?

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Speaker 1: Good for tourism South Carolina. Do you think Jim Clepen's

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Speaker 1: gonna let him change South Carolina? Jamie Harrison, I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. That's not gonna work. So let's let me

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Speaker 1: ask you about this. We're in a very very interesting

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Speaker 1: time in democratic leadership. We have Nancy Pelosi is going

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Speaker 1: to stay in Congress, but she's going to retire. She

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Speaker 1: seems to have a secession plan worked out. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you think and do you I mean you

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Speaker 1: sort of know much more of the machinations than most

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Speaker 1: of us. Well, I get that Nancy Pelosi doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a plan is absurd. Of course she has a plan.

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Speaker 1: You know exactly what she's doing. And I think it

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Speaker 1: was a good sign. And I think that hockey, you know,

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Speaker 1: can do a really good job. I think all you're

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Speaker 1: stepping down. I mean, they gotta get some younger people,

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Speaker 1: and in some leadership positions here you feel like there's

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Speaker 1: I mean, who were you excited about with the sort

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Speaker 1: of younger people in Congress. But a lot of them

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Speaker 1: that you know that that you just don't hear from them.

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Speaker 1: I mean just Spanberger, Uh, Colin Albert, my friend from Dallas,

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Speaker 1: very excited about him, our mutual friend Ruben Gego I

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Speaker 1: got online as Lindsey Ukase. I mean, there's a ton

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Speaker 1: of them, and a lot of them I don't ever

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Speaker 1: know because they hadn't surfaced, but Mark Kelly turning into

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Speaker 1: be the real talent here corrected. Yeah, when Reuben Diego

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Speaker 1: primary is Kirsten Cinema, that is going to be the

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Speaker 1: absolute most amazing primary challenge ever. I don't think she'll

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Speaker 1: you don't you think she won't run again. You'll destroy it.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Independent. I don't know. You came on this

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Speaker 1: podcast last time before the mid terms. I was desponded

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Speaker 1: and convinced that there was going to be a red

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Speaker 1: wave that was going to install all of these um

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Speaker 1: election deniers and swing states. None of that happened, did you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like you were a little more

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Speaker 1: optimistic than I was. Well, it was kind of based

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Speaker 1: on two things. And I don't want to deem myself,

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Speaker 1: as I was kind of pleasantly surprised when I wasn't shot.

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Speaker 1: I would see three Senate polls every day and I

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Speaker 1: just didn't see any change. And then when you would

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Speaker 1: look at the public polls what they called a congressional generic,

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Speaker 1: it was pretty steady. Well, you know, I've been through

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Speaker 1: these bad cycles and good cycles, and generally towards the end,

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Speaker 1: things sort of start breaking, and I didn't see much

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Speaker 1: evidence it was breaking. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: a great place. We lost a popular vote. I think

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Speaker 1: like it was good. And we want a lot of big,

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Speaker 1: big centate races and governors races. But if you you know,

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Speaker 1: if you you just sort of look at your instruments,

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Speaker 1: you said, well, I'm looking at center pos in Nevada,

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Speaker 1: pos Colorado, could said, post Charge of Books said pos

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Speaker 1: in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire. And I don't see

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Speaker 1: the requisite deterioration that you would have seen in a

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Speaker 1: really big year. I didn't see a right that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And I mean I was sort of surprised at how

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Speaker 1: much even Democrats held in the House. I was a

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Speaker 1: little bit, though I don't think I was. I would

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Speaker 1: have I wasn't in I'm not a predictor. You know,

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Speaker 1: Peter Hart tell there a long time ago. You know,

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Speaker 1: I said, you look at you know he needs to win.

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Speaker 1: He said, you know, I don't. If you go to

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Speaker 1: the doctor, the doctor examined you and said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: nine months and three days you're gonna drop debt? Well,

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Speaker 1: is that a good doctor a bad doctor? You're dead?

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Speaker 1: Nine months and three. Probably you want someone as well,

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Speaker 1: is what you can do to extend this thing out

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Speaker 1: a little bit. And so you know, I don't have

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Speaker 1: a great instinct to predict the election right out of money.

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Speaker 1: I'm too bigy trying to win it right. I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you about the lame duck. Now Democrats have

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Speaker 1: until January. I mean, there's certainly seems to be really

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Speaker 1: important that Democrats raised the debt ceiling so that Jim

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Speaker 1: Jordan's does not control the dead ceiling or whatever kind

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Speaker 1: of weirdness. The GOP Freedom Caucus MAGA Caucus becomes what

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Speaker 1: else do you think? Uh, you know, before payment and

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Speaker 1: sells on a zoom call with a lot of number

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Speaker 1: called knowledgeable people, and they're skeptical and that they can

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Speaker 1: get it done. From a political standpoint, I dare them

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Speaker 1: to do it. Make my day. And they would have

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Speaker 1: only got like a four seat majority. They got like

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Speaker 1: sixteen of them I think got elected in districts at

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Speaker 1: Biden one. I mean, you know, you think these people

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Speaker 1: in suburban New Jersey and you know the Hudson Valley

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Speaker 1: are going to risk of not raising the death ceiling

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Speaker 1: and defaulting under death and wrecking the economy. I don't

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Speaker 1: think so, but I don't like chicken with him. And

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Speaker 1: they've wanted a lot of districts that were Biden districts. Right.

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Speaker 1: Remember when Rick Scott's plan was to sunset surch coach

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Speaker 1: in medicare force cuts to it, and uh, you know

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Speaker 1: Ted budd and saying position, you know Ron Johnson and

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post fact checker said, yeah, that's not really

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Speaker 1: a Republican position. Democrats are democratic when they say that. Well,

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Speaker 1: after that happens, Kevin McCarthy said we're gonna shut the

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Speaker 1: up and down to force Cutson medic and so security

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Speaker 1: made the Washington Post like a fool because that's all

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Speaker 1: that their whole raised on debtress to cut these runaway.

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Speaker 1: He got damn runaway and tied with James. We got

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Speaker 1: to curb him and do something, and we got to

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Speaker 1: raise the gas tax while we had a great idea

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Speaker 1: of good chief, I'm right on it. They need right down.

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Speaker 1: Ron Johnson is. I'm telling you he's like one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite Republican politicians because he is really he is

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Speaker 1: neither charismatic, nor particularly talented, nor intelligent that we found

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Speaker 1: the one person in Wisconsin that he could beat. But

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Speaker 1: that was another one of those races where the polls.

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Speaker 1: If if people had seen how tight that race actually was,

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Speaker 1: he would have been able to raise more money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was one. I mean, I'm just saying, like,

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Speaker 1: if you saw it like that Lauren Boeberd race, like

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Speaker 1: she won by seven hundred and sixties seven votes. I

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Speaker 1: had that guy Adam Frosh on the podcast. People are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's crazy, he'll never win. I mean he was pulling,

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Speaker 1: you know, four or five points behind, but honestly he

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Speaker 1: could have won. Yeah, four or five points behind income

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Speaker 1: but that's you know, that's pretty good. And he had

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Speaker 1: some help because then, you know, they kept putting out

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Speaker 1: that you know, Michael Bennett could lose, Michael Man could lose,

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Speaker 1: or a good friend of him for his campaign, and

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Speaker 1: it went out of ten twelve points. And then in

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Speaker 1: the margin that Barnes got out of Dane County, which

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Speaker 1: is Wisconsin, was I didn't even met with munch pt

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Speaker 1: Brievers and he said, staggering, I don't know how how

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Speaker 1: we won, and we didn't do that well in Milwaukee.

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Speaker 1: One of the more distressing things is the Black Volk

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Speaker 1: was not great. It wasn't so it wasn't really great

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Speaker 1: in Georgia, and it wasn't great in Milwaukee, and we

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Speaker 1: gotta figure way to connect better here, you know. Not

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Speaker 1: not the young people did do They held out and

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Speaker 1: pretty good. That was surprising. It's sort of the best

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Speaker 1: thing ever because young people are ultimately but I feel

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Speaker 1: like we are usually disappointed by them, but not this year.

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Speaker 1: Well it's been three years in a row. There's three

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Speaker 1: cycles in a row. All right. How many stories have

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Speaker 1: you read about the two America's rural America, urban America,

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Speaker 1: white American, white America. But there really two Americas that

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Speaker 1: are emerging that you're more significant anything is young and

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Speaker 1: o America, right. I mean, it's really two different universes

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Speaker 1: they live in. And you know that that that's one

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Speaker 1: of the the good things. So Democrats going forward, the

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Speaker 1: young people come up that you know as well. You know,

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Speaker 1: when young, if you're young and you're liberally, you have

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Speaker 1: no heart. If you're bold and be able here all

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Speaker 1: the time, the political sciences. Once you vote twice pretty

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Speaker 1: much that's way you can vote the rest of your life, right,

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Speaker 1: James Carvell, thank you so much for joining us super

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Speaker 1: interesting and really great and I appreciate you joining us

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Speaker 1: on a Sunday. Alright, all right, thank you. Ross Morales

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Speaker 1: Roquetto is co founder of Run for Something. Welcome Too

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Ross, thanks for having me. Well, it's very

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Speaker 1: exciting you are the co founder of Run for Something.

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Speaker 1: Run for Something is one of this podcast favorite organizations.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you just tell us a little bit for

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Speaker 1: the few people on here who don't know what Run

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Speaker 1: for Something does. What Run for Something does? I would

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Speaker 1: love to so for those who don't know. Run for

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Speaker 1: Something recruits and supports young, diverse, progressive folks who are

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Speaker 1: run in for state and local office, usually for the first,

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Speaker 1: second or third times. We got our start in the

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Speaker 1: aftermath of the sixteen election. My co founder and I, Amanda.

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Speaker 1: We're both you know, thinking about right after the election

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Speaker 1: how they're just like, wasn't really anything for young people

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Speaker 1: who like really wanted to like get involved in their

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Speaker 1: communities and run for office. And so we started this

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Speaker 1: thing as a side hustle and thought that maybe if

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Speaker 1: we were lucky, a hundred people would tell us they

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Speaker 1: were interested in running for office. After the first few months,

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Speaker 1: we had over five thousand people tell us they were

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Speaker 1: interested in running for office, and then as of today,

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Speaker 1: we have over a hudd thousand people across the country

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Speaker 1: who told us that they want to run for office.

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Speaker 1: Amanda and I sort of looked at each other and said,

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Speaker 1: we need to do right by these people. So we

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Speaker 1: started building an organization. So let's talk about that organization

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Speaker 1: and a little bit about some of the candidates you're

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Speaker 1: working with. It has just been a big midterm election,

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Speaker 1: but that does not mean elections are over. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of special elections and state elections and small elections.

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Speaker 1: You want to first take a victory lap about your

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Speaker 1: your candidates in the mid terms, Yeah, I would love too.

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Speaker 1: So we had four hundred ninety candidates who had elections

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Speaker 1: on in November. Of those folks, two hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: for sure have won their elections, and we have another

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Speaker 1: ninety people who are waiting to call their races. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's like mostly West coast California, Oregon, Washington State, those

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Speaker 1: places where some of the votes get talied a little

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Speaker 1: bit slower. So we're really really excited. Over fifty of

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Speaker 1: those candidates are women. I think actually about sixty percent

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Speaker 1: of them or women over people of color over l

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Speaker 1: G B, t q I A plus, and so we're

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Speaker 1: just honestly, really really excited. This was easily our best

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Speaker 1: year that we've ever had in terms of win rate,

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Speaker 1: and we're really really excited to see all the new

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Speaker 1: incredible people who just literally got elected. So just tell

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Speaker 1: us about one of them, Like, give us, give us

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Speaker 1: a scene of one of the candidates who came to

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Speaker 1: you and what they've achieved. There was a woman named

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Speaker 1: Amanda Gonzalez who was running for Jefferson County Clerk out

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Speaker 1: in Colorado. So that's like the suburbs of Denver. It's

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Speaker 1: like a swing county has sort of like trended a

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Speaker 1: little bit bluer over the years, but was traditionally a

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Speaker 1: red county over the last sort of twenty or thirty.

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Speaker 1: She's incredible. She has been involved in sort of like

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Speaker 1: state policymaking, either as a lawyer or on the advocacy

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Speaker 1: side for years. She is one of the people who

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Speaker 1: actually helped write a lot of like the campaign ethics

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Speaker 1: rules in the state of Colorado. She helped sort of

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Speaker 1: like reform the voting system there when they moved over

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Speaker 1: to having like a more vote by male dominated system.

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Speaker 1: She was trying to recruit someone to run for this

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Speaker 1: office because there was an election denier like running on

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Speaker 1: the Republican side. She wasn't having very much luck finding anyone.

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Speaker 1: And then somewhere along the way she was she realized

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Speaker 1: that like no one else did it, it needed to

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Speaker 1: be her. So she stepped up and did it. She

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Speaker 1: just won her race, and you know, she's going to

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Speaker 1: be running the elections for and a really critical part

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Speaker 1: of the state of Colorado. You know, it's interesting that

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Speaker 1: I used to go to events that the Arena Summit had.

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Speaker 1: I actually think that's when I first learned about run

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Speaker 1: for something. And one of the things they would say

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Speaker 1: was that women need to be told to run for

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Speaker 1: office many more times than men. Yeah, that's unfortunately true.

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Speaker 1: It's especially true for women. It's especially true for women

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Speaker 1: of color. It's generally also true for people of color.

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Speaker 1: I talked to so many people who tell me that

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Speaker 1: they've thought about running for office at some point, but

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Speaker 1: you know, then they thought about sort of like who

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Speaker 1: are the people in elected office, and they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not me, Like I'm just like that I can't run.

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Speaker 1: And the truth is that anyone can run, and anyone

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Speaker 1: really should be able to run, and so part of

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Speaker 1: you know, like what the mission of the organization does

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Speaker 1: and what we're really trying hard to do is make

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Speaker 1: sure people can see themselves and their elected officials. You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I was thinking about this weekend

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Speaker 1: was Nancy Pelosi. And I think about this because I

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Speaker 1: am a mother of many children. I had a sort

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Speaker 1: of stint staying at home with them. And Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 1: ran for Congress for the first time. I mean, obviously

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Speaker 1: she came from very political families, so she had an advantage,

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Speaker 1: But I say, this is someone who came from a

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Speaker 1: family where I had an advantage, but she was forty seven.

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Speaker 1: I think, like, you know, we're we're trying to be

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Speaker 1: right now. And I think that is also just like

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Speaker 1: especially true of like our system generally is like I think,

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Speaker 1: young people, so that includes millennials and gen z you know,

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Speaker 1: represent like fewer than of the state legislative like offices

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Speaker 1: and seats across the country. That representation goes down even

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Speaker 1: further when you start to really look at the state

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Speaker 1: and local level numbers. I mean, I just mean, like

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Speaker 1: they're are women who have spent all this time raising

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Speaker 1: kids who could conceivably run for you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: like where they could go back and start another career,

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Speaker 1: you know, you know what I mean, Judges, nurses, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think of Lauren Underwood, who was a nurse, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, where they can go on to

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Speaker 1: do other stuff later in life too, and they absolutely should.

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Speaker 1: I think, like the only real prerequisites that we have,

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Speaker 1: especially for a lot of these like local offices, is

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Speaker 1: that one you care a lot about your community, and

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Speaker 1: two you have a problem that you really want to solve.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, that's what kept me going during the Trump

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Speaker 1: years was getting to see on a regular basis these

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people who identified a problem in their community,

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Speaker 1: who care a lot and decided to step up in

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases because they didn't feel like anyone

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Speaker 1: else would. And so, yeah, Lauren Underwood's incredible. You know,

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Speaker 1: we don't do congressional races, but we talked to her

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Speaker 1: really early on and her when she started running her

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Speaker 1: first campaign, and there's just like so many other people

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Speaker 1: like her out there who like are just getting started

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about. So

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Speaker 1: tell me about some of this sort of off the

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Speaker 1: radar races that are coming up soon and if you

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Speaker 1: have any candidates there. We decided to focus really explicitly

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Speaker 1: on even more local races about a year ago when

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Speaker 1: we were sort of going through our planning process to

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Speaker 1: like offices that we really targeted were school boards and

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Speaker 1: there's about ten thousand school board elections next yearly and

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Speaker 1: then also election election administrators. So these are the people

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Speaker 1: like county clerks like Amanda Gonzalz who was talking about,

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Speaker 1: who are responsible for things like making sure there's enough

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Speaker 1: polling locations, setting the hours of polling locations, deciding where

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Speaker 1: drop boxes get placed, making sure that elections are run

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Speaker 1: in a fair way, making sure there's accessibility options for

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Speaker 1: folks going to the polls. You know, these are really

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Speaker 1: really critical elections that in there that are coming up

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Speaker 1: both in and and you know, we really need good

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Speaker 1: people to be running for these especially because we have

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Speaker 1: and we've seen, you know, on the far right, conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theorists deciding to step up and run people who believe

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Speaker 1: that Donald Trump won the election, then that the election

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Speaker 1: was stolen. We've had a lot of those folks running

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Speaker 1: for these offices. We started to see that in two

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Speaker 1: and so it's even more critical to make sure that

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Speaker 1: we're getting folks recruited to run for these offices as

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Speaker 1: well as we go into well. And I also think

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Speaker 1: that you're seeing a lot of people like lips of

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Speaker 1: TikTok right who are targeting these school boards in the

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Speaker 1: hopes of removing you know, the kind of people like

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Speaker 1: lives of TikTok people who are trying to you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of build off of Ron de santisis don't say

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Speaker 1: gay law right, who are trying to keep children from

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Speaker 1: being able to you know, read books about same sex parents.

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Speaker 1: And they're on this sort of book banning not teaching

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Speaker 1: SIXI bandwagon and so that is pretty scary. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's really terrifying. And you know, here's the good news,

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Speaker 1: Like we had candidates running against conspiracy theorists at the

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Speaker 1: school board, a level election, administrator, city council, etcetera. And

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Speaker 1: a trend that we did see is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: in a lot of these places we were able to

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Speaker 1: beat them. Um. I think the round Rock school Board

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Speaker 1: is a really good example. So round Rock is a

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Speaker 1: suburb just outside of Austin, Texas that has traditionally been

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Speaker 1: read and has like trended a little bit more purple

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Speaker 1: over the years. You know, like the Moms for Liberty

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Speaker 1: folks like really invested there. I think they lost all,

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Speaker 1: if not all, of those races. Can you explain what

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Speaker 1: Moms for Liberty is for those for the few of

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Speaker 1: us who have lives and to dwell where we dwell.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, the Moms for Liberty folks are part

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Speaker 1: of a broader movement of like anti critical race theory folks,

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Speaker 1: while it started as anti critical race theory folks who

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Speaker 1: are basically recruiting candidates to run at the school board level,

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Speaker 1: and they're specifically recruiting them to run at the school

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Speaker 1: board level around a lot of the cultural issues you've

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Speaker 1: seem like mass policies, critical race theory, some of the

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Speaker 1: stuff that you talked about a little bit in your question.

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Speaker 1: But also like you know, we've seen folks go so far,

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Speaker 1: as you know, like to try to get suicide prevention

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Speaker 1: counselors outside of or out of schools because under sort

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Speaker 1: of the idea that a suicide prevention counselor being in

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Speaker 1: the school encourages kids to commit suicide, which is just

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Speaker 1: so they're pretty stupid that is the craziest thing I've

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Speaker 1: ever heard. Yeah, like all sorts of anti science and

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Speaker 1: they sort of do it under this sort under the

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Speaker 1: mantra of parental choice, and you know, like that's the

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Speaker 1: message that they try to use. And you know, this cycle,

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Speaker 1: you know, we saw we saw those folks get really

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Speaker 1: organized in Virginia and the Virginia governor is race back

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Speaker 1: and use like these cultural issues around school as a

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Speaker 1: wedge to turn out, like to get higher turnout for

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Speaker 1: far right candidates. This election cycle, it didn't work as

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Speaker 1: well for them. So like in places like Round Rock,

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Speaker 1: most if not all, of those anti cr Team Moms

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Speaker 1: or liberty candidates ended up losing. We saw that sort

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Speaker 1: of replicated in other races around the country, even in

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Speaker 1: you know, for the election administration roles that we worked in.

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Speaker 1: You know, we had thirteen specific places where that we're

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Speaker 1: highly targeted, We're spending a lot of time and resources

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Speaker 1: where we had a candidate that was recruited and they

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Speaker 1: were running against somebody who was an election denier. Of

429
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: those thirteen races, ten of our folks one. It's still

430
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: scary that three of them, you know that there are

431
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: three of them that lost but you know, I think

432
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 1: the thing that keeps me up at night around all

433
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,479
Speaker 1: of this stuff isn't about whether, you know, we have

434
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists on the ballot. It's whether those people are

435
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: going uncontested. And I feel, you know, as an organization

436
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: and just like as a person who's done this work

437
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: for a long time, like I feel confident that we

438
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: can beat most of the people who are running. The

439
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: problem is there are thousands of these races all over

440
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: the country. Um, where we've got these folks who are

441
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: stepping up to run, and if we don't challenge them,

442
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: then they're gonna then they're definitely going to get on

443
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: the ballot and get elected. And the right is much

444
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: further along in terms of building out state and local

445
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: political power than we are on the left. I would say, like,

446
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: you know, the way that we've described in the past

447
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: is they're on your forty of a forty year plan.

448
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: On the left, we're on year six of a forty

449
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: year plan. So we're doing the work, but it's hard. Yeah,

450
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like the Supreme Court, right exactly. I mean,

451
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: that's what we've seen with the Supreme Court. Tell me

452
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: a little bit about sort of what people are listening

453
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: to this how they could support this sort of work

454
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: you're doing. I love this question. The first thing is

455
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: you can think about running for office. If you go

456
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: to run for what dot net, you can look up,

457
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: you can fill out the form and you can look

458
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: up what offices are available to run for in your

459
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: local community. You can also go to run for something's

460
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: website and volunteer. One of the really fun things that

461
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: we do that a lot of people really enjoy is

462
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: we train volunteers to actually do one on ones with

463
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: people who tell us that they're interested in running for office.

464
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: So anyone who tells us they're interested in running for

465
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: office will get a one on one with a train volunteers.

466
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: So we train volunteers to do that, and it's like

467
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: a really inspiring way to get involved. We also have

468
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: opportunities to get involved directly with our candidates. The last

469
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: thing I'd say is you can also, you know, make

470
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: a contribution, makeer occurring contribution. The work is expensive and difficult,

471
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: and you know you can go to run for something

472
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: dot net slash build for that. Thank you so much,

473
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: so interesting and also so important. Thank you so much

474
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: for having me. I love all your work. You're doing that,

475
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: You're you're really doing the Lord's work, and I really

476
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: really appreciate you having Dr Mark Roscoe Loustau is an

477
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: expert on Eastern European religion in politics and author of

478
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: Hungarian Catholic Intellectuals and Contemporary Romania. Welcome to Fast Politics,

479
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: Mark Lusto. It's good to be here. So we are

480
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: very excited to have you here. You are an academic,

481
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: but we occasionally we do have academics, not all that often,

482
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: but sometimes, but you know that we do. Jesse, don't wait,

483
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: we sure do, We sure do. Okay, good. What you're

484
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: going to talk to us a little bit about is

485
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: this sort of rise in authoritarianism and where this comes

486
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: from in Hungary and in Romania and and sort of

487
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: in that area. So talk to us a little bit

488
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: about how you got involved in this. First. I first

489
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: visited Hungary in two thousand five, and then I moved

490
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: there in two thousand nine, and that was all before

491
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,959
Speaker 1: the rise of autocracy, before Victor Ordubon, Hungary's current right

492
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: wing prime minister, was elected. He was elected in his

493
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten and so I kind of have

494
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: seen Hungary before and after and I lived there for

495
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: three and a half years from two thousand nine until

496
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, and then I've been back a bunch

497
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: of times since then and then have written articles and

498
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: books about the situation there, and you know, it's become

499
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: something of a fascination for me, as much as fascism

500
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: can be a fascination. It is. So I want you

501
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about because Victor Orban is

502
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: not just your fascination, he's also Tucker Carlson's fascination. So

503
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: explained to us a little bit about what it was

504
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: like living in Hungary before Orban. In Budapest, which is Hungary's,

505
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, main capital city, it was a diverse place

506
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,959
Speaker 1: with lots of exciting culture going on, really kind of

507
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: cutting edge, are yes, exactly exactly, and you know, under

508
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: under order Bon life has changed a lot. I mean,

509
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: I was in a queer club in Budapest when I

510
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: got raided by the police during this was in the

511
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: early days of Ordubon's regime, and you know that was

512
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: really just the harbinger of real kind of concerted, government funded,

513
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: government enforced effort to kill diverse culture in that country

514
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: before this election, Like what were this sort of I mean,

515
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: the kind of mechanics of life in Hungary. There's always

516
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about like this sort of how

517
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: Germany elected Hitler? Right, was there inflation? What was this

518
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: sort of economic landscape? I mean, why why would a

519
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: country that's sort of a normal European country elect someone

520
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: like this or did they not know what they were electing?

521
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: There are a lot of causes and effects, right, and

522
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: it's hard to like single out one thing like inflation

523
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: or you know, economic downturns. And certainly he was elected

524
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the two thousand eight financial crisis,

525
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: and that was certainly, you know, a major impact. And

526
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: there's also of like political and economic factors that you

527
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 1: can trace that led to Ordubon coming into power and

528
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: and when he did, you know, he came into power

529
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: in like a landslide election, you know, the the left

530
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: wing lost, and they lost big time. In two thousand ten,

531
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: he won a supermajority in parliament, more than two thirds,

532
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: and that allowed his party to pass whatever legislation it

533
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: wanted to and really just as importantly, to change the

534
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: country's constitution. And they've done that a multiple times since then.

535
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: He's been in power, and he holds a lock grip

536
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: on his right wing party. The party is called FEEDES

537
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: that stands for Young Democrats, But I think the Democrats

538
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: really should be in quotation marks. They all vote exactly

539
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: how Victor Ordubon tells them to um and slowly and systematically.

540
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: Since two thousand and ten, he's taken over all the

541
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: institutions of the country. He's installed loyal party hacks in

542
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: every position of power that you can imagine. It's it's basically,

543
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, the death of democracy by a thousand little takeovers,

544
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: a little bit like what Trump had hoped to do

545
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: with the loyal US and even in the two elections

546
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: where he tried to install these secretaries of state who

547
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: were his people, his hacks. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean

548
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Victor Ordubon is basically Donald Trump. If Donald Trump had

549
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: an attention span longer than my chihuahua. You know, he's disciplined,

550
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: he rarely makes mistakes, and Ordubon he learns from them,

551
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 1: which is really you know, the mistakes that he has made, like,

552
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: for instance, he tried to pass a law that would

553
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: make it illegal to open your grocery store on Sundays

554
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: to try to kind of enforce a Sunday Sabbath and

555
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: nobody liked that, and so he gave in on that,

556
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: and he learned from his mistakes and he gave in.

557
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: And that's that's what makes what about truly truly terrifying,

558
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: is that he's able to change tactics to stay in

559
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: power and does not look like he's going to leave

560
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: power anytime. It's so interesting because I've read reporting about

561
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: this that he does do things that are besides being

562
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: an autocrat, he also does things that are populous, right,

563
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: can you talk about that? Yeah, I mean he he

564
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: definitely represents himself as a man of the people. But

565
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: doesn't he pay people to have children and stuff like that? Oh? Yeah,

566
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: paying people to have children is something that a lot

567
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 1: of European countries do. There's a general, you know sense

568
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: in European countries. You know, they're word about the population decline,

569
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: which is happening all across Europe. It's definitely a policy

570
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: that that's in in France and in Germany and elsewhere

571
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: to uh encourage people to have kids by offering them incentives.

572
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: Were such suckers in America, and I mean, like we

573
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: could all be living in Europe being paid to have

574
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: children and instead but anyway, yes, continue going, yes, sorry, yes, no, no,

575
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: it's true. He's just kind of bumped that up and

576
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: made it kind of a hallmark of his regime that

577
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: Hungary is going to reverse, you know, the European trend

578
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: and be an outlier in Europe by having a growing population.

579
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: The data on that is highly mixed, if not totally

580
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: pointing in the opposite direction about the effectiveness of his policies.

581
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: But you know, that was definitely one of his big

582
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: things coming into power. He not only represents himself was

583
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: like a man of the people, but you know he

584
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: um he has like this this persona, this very almost

585
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, a pugilistic persona. He actually calls himself a

586
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: street fighter sometimes. He's a huge fan of Chuck Norris,

587
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: believe it or not, of all the heroes to have

588
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: from Hollywood, I would have never picked Chuck Norris, but

589
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: he you know, so he really kind of compares himself

590
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: to Chuck Norris and thinks of himself as somebody who's

591
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: kind of fighting the good fight against well, especially against

592
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: liberals and progressives. Jesus. I mean, what were the big

593
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: changes you saw after orban took over. When I was

594
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: in Hungary, I was studying at Central European University, which

595
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: is it was a major, major research institution, one of

596
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, the jewels of the Crown, of of the Hungary,

597
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: of Hungarian intellectual culture. And you know, one of the

598
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: major things that Audubon did is that he passed laws

599
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: that made it impossible for Central European University to stay

600
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: in Hungary. He revoked their accreditation and he forced them

601
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: to leave the country and now it's it's based in Vienna,

602
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: in Austria. He's done that to a number of different

603
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: and geos, a lot of human rights and geos. He's

604
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: forced them to leave the country by passing laws that

605
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: made it impossible for them to do their work. And

606
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: so a lot of the kind of civil society framework

607
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: and institutional networks in Hungary and the educational institutions that

608
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: really kind of work that made Hungry and intellectual leader

609
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: in Europe as a whole. He's done a lot to

610
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: take them over, to dismantle them if you can't take

611
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: them over, and to remake them in its own you know,

612
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: white Christian nationalistic image. Do you see in the day

613
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: to day life and Hungary any of that, Like, for example,

614
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: you could live in Miami and you are being governed

615
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: by Ron de Santis, but life is still pretty much

616
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: the way it is in New York. Did you see

617
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: anything like the raids on gay clubs? I mean, what

618
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: did you see where you were like, wow, we really

619
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: have a different president here. Now, the economics of living

620
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: in Hungary did not change dramatically on a day to

621
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: day basis, right that the stores, the names of the

622
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: stores didn't change, They didn't go anywhere, And that was

623
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: really enabled the way that Ordubon has really engineered this

624
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: as you know, a slow death by a thousand little

625
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: cuts in a thousand little takeovers. So there was nothing

626
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: ever truly dramatic. I guess that's how democracy dies, right,

627
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: is that it dies little by little. The way he

628
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: was able to, you know, engineer this small, long term,

629
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: little by little death of democracy was really because, uh,

630
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: you know, the economics of the of the state didn't change,

631
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: because the EU was sending tons of money there and

632
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: has sent tons of money there throughout his entire regime,

633
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: right exactly, So what do you think there's sort of

634
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: lessons of orbon are as people like Tucker Carlson are

635
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: taking lessons from him on how to be more of

636
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: a successful autocrat. What are the lessons that liberals or

637
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: just people who are pro democracy should take from or

638
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: bon Well, Yes, certainly Hungary is like America's test kitchen

639
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: for far right xenophobia and racism and what have you

640
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: The lessons to learn are you know, to to make

641
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: certain to organize, you know, always at the grassroots level, right,

642
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: I mean, you have to start with making certain that

643
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: people understand on an interpersonal, day to day basis what's

644
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: at stake in having a democracy, especially at the NGO level.

645
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: Explain the NGO what that what that means, because I'm

646
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: aware of angers, but I'm not aware of how meaningful

647
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: the larger migration of them is. So if you could

648
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: explain that the nonprofits in Hungary were you know, primarily

649
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: focused on protecting human rights in the country and making

650
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: certain that the media sector stayed diverse, you know, and

651
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: that that there was an independent media sector not completely

652
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: controlled by the government. Their migration out of the country

653
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: and basically him kicking them out really allowed him to

654
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: take over the entire cultural landscape and make it in

655
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: his own image. So for me, that the research that

656
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: that I've been primarily focused on in my academic work

657
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: is on churches in Hungary. And he's certainly done everything

658
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: he can to make certain that the churches offer no

659
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: opposition to him, right, I mean, ideally churches should be

660
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,479
Speaker 1: a prophetic voice in society. And certainly there have been,

661
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: you know, profits in the past. We've spoken out against

662
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: the communist regime and Hungary profits you know, based in

663
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: Christian values in Christian churches or Dubon has done everything

664
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: he can to buy all the churches and their church leadership.

665
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: He sends them tons of money, both for social service

666
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: work that they do and then also for education. The

667
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: government gives tons of money to churches to run schools.

668
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: Of a friend to journalist Alex Fuludi, he was a

669
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: Hungarian journalist, and his take on this is that it's

670
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: it's definitely political opportunism, and you know his his good

671
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,479
Speaker 1: line about this is is that it's hard to talk

672
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: back when your mouth is full of coins. Right, And

673
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: so you know, the churches are well and fully bought,

674
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: with a few exceptions. What Americans can do is to

675
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: kind of learn about the few churches in Hungary that

676
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: have state independent and that are critical of Ordubon's regime

677
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: and they have suffered a great deal for it, and

678
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: to highlight their work to resist fascism in Hungary. So interesting.

679
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Does he allow other religions or is

680
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: he sort of narrowing it down to a sort of

681
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: more Christian kind of religion. Hungary, unlike a lot of

682
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: other European countries, came out of World War Two with

683
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: at least a remnant of a Jewish community. There are

684
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: active synagogues attended by Hungarians in Budapest and and other

685
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: kind of regional cities around Hungary, and they have a

686
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 1: strong and very prominent kind of organizational leadership that plays

687
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: roles in Hungarian public life and in Hungarian politics. So,

688
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, just recently, this was over the summer, Bordubon

689
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: gave a speech in which he very intentionally and very

690
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: explicitly evoked Nazi language around race and species. He basically

691
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: said that Hungarians don't want to be a mixed species.

692
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: It was awful and horrendous, and he received a huge

693
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: amount of criticism and denunciation all throughout the world, and

694
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: the Hungarian Jewish community leadership requested a meeting with him

695
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: to try to, you know, figure out what the hell

696
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: he was trying to say in that speech. And so

697
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: he plays to the awareness that a lot of international

698
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: organizations have about Hungary's religious diversity and about the fate

699
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: of the Jewish community and Hungary. He has a very

700
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: strong relationship with Benjamin Nitsan, Yahoo used one of the

701
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: first people to congratulate Natanyahuan on his election. So he's

702
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: aware of the diversity of Hungary's religious landscape, even as

703
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: he also, you know, tries to promote the notion that

704
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: Hungary and Hungarian culture has from the get go been

705
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, truly Christian and non waveringly Christian. Basically he

706
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: uses conservative Jews to launder his figo trade. Yeah, not

707
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: so different from Donald Trump in that way. Yes, yeah,

708
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: I mean there's again, this is a playbook, and I

709
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: think Dubon was generating this playbook that Donald Trump probably

710
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: observed and borrowed. There's certainly you know, a certain you

711
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: know Israel washing, right, I think that's the right word,

712
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: is washing. The political opportunism of Ordu Bon's you know,

713
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: turn to Faith, which was really kind of dated to

714
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: two thousand tent He was not a big a tender

715
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: of church if at all he had a secular marriage

716
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: under communism, courthouse marriage, and uh, he didn't really discover

717
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: religion until after his election in two thousand ten. Definitely,

718
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: there's a good argument to make that it is just

719
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: sheer political opportunism and he's trying to eliminate potential opposition

720
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: to his regime. And yet at the same time, I

721
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: think there's also a there's a very smart strategy and

722
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 1: what he's trying to do to kind of promote what

723
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: he calls Christian values. He's trying to create a culture

724
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: in a whole world that people can live in from

725
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: like cradle to grave, and they can live in institutions

726
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: that all basically say the same thing and all parrot

727
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: his line. And so the sense of of a of

728
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: a totally encompassing society and culture defined by Christian values

729
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: is absolutely at the heart of his program and his goal.

730
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: But he also wants people to think that there's like

731
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: a deep depth and a mystery to Hungarian culture and

732
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: Hungarian Christianity. He wants people to be kind of fascinated

733
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: by the history of Christian deities. Um he really promotes,

734
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: for instance, the Virgin Mary. He sponsors art shows and

735
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,479
Speaker 1: art exhibitions about the art of the Virgin Mary. Yeah.

736
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: Not many people know about her. Yeah, yeah, she didn't.

737
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 1: She needs to pep. Hungary is really really really really

738
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: really small, right, yes, in the larger and it has

739
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: a very tiny economy. So when Tuckle Carlson gets very

740
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: excited about it, can you just put it in context

741
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: for us? Yeah, I mean he gets excited about it

742
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: because American conservatives think of it as like, you know,

743
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: like I said before, the test kitchen for you know,

744
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: policies that they can implement on a bigger scale. In

745
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: the US. Conservatives like Tucker Carlson also like Rod Dreyer.

746
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: Isn't Rod drey Or have some kind of relations like

747
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: monetary relationship with the government there? Yeah, yeah, so I

748
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: mean all the American conservatives who go there. He's being paid, Yeah, yeah,

749
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: he's He's like a fellow at the Danube Institute, which

750
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: is a government funded research center. And I feel like,

751
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: if you're being paid by the government and then you

752
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 1: say nice things about said government, that should be disclosed. Yes,

753
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: that should be disclosed. The other thing that makes Dreyer,

754
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, so fascinating is that he's clearly attracted to

755
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: by a certain kind of masculinity and manliness. We cannot

756
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: speculate about a person who's not that famous as love life,

757
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: but yeah, I agree that, Like you know, the conservative

758
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 1: obsession with this just explained, the economy is quite small,

759
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: yeah it is. It's well, it's a ten million people

760
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: in Hungary proper, probably nine million in change now since

761
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: the last senses, you know, and the EU when it

762
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: said the only reason really why the Hungarian economy is

763
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: functioning right now is because the EU subsidizes it gigantically,

764
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, to the tune of billions and billions and

765
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: billions of dollars. And that's been going on for you know,

766
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: twenty some odd years now, ever since it joined the

767
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: EU in two thousand and four. And so, you know,

768
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: I think the American conservative obsession with Hungary is is

769
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: that they really see it as this you know, miniaturized

770
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: almost like a you know, a football field where they

771
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: can kind of game out, you have a practice session

772
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 1: for what their policies are going to be going forward.

773
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: And so they before Donald Trump was ever inspiring people

774
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: taunting people into chanting build the wall, Victor Ordubon was

775
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: actually building a real razor wire fence at the border

776
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: with Serbia, right and and you know the same thing.

777
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: You know, I think we should be really closely paying

778
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 1: attention to what's going on right now in Hungary with

779
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: Victor Ordubon entering into his third term in office, because

780
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: his kind of goal for the third term in office

781
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: is to remilitarize Hungarian society. He wants to found ten

782
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: new military academies in the country. He wants he's created

783
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: a new civilian border guard unit that he calls the

784
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: Border Hunters. You know, their specific goal is to catch

785
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 1: refugees trying to cross the border. That is their one

786
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: and only purpose. We should be really really scared that

787
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: Republicans are going to start trying to remilitarize American society.

788
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: Republicans are always hitting liberals about being weak on the military,

789
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: and so I you know, I would not be surprised

790
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: if if in the run up to the presidential election

791
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: we heard candidates talk about needing to expand military schools,

792
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: needing to expand military education even further into high schools,

793
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: in public high schools. So I think this very well

794
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: could be the next step in the Republican playbook. If

795
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: they do follow Victor word Bond's lead in this fascinating

796
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Marc lu Stowe. I hope you'll

797
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: come back. Thank you so much, Molly. That's it for

798
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday

799
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: and Friday to your the best minds in politics makes

800
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,479
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

801
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

802
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening. H