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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murderer.

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Speaker 2: That's Georgia Hartstark.

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Speaker 1: That's Karen Kilgareff.

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Speaker 2: And we're full of beans today, if you don't mind.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I forgot to, I have these like caffeine pouches

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Speaker 1: that you suck on that I forgot to take. That's

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Speaker 1: why I'm so fucking tired.

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Speaker 2: Let's get you off those pouches.

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Speaker 1: I think I need to get on them because I

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Speaker 1: forgot to take it.

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Speaker 2: Just drink that as fast as you can. Georgia's going

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Speaker 2: to chug, chug.

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Speaker 1: Oh my God.

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Speaker 2: Remember back in the days?

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Speaker 1: Chug it. Full of beans. That's full of shit, right? Uh-huh.

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Speaker 1: That's what that means.

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Speaker 2: For the children. Right. If you're going to yell at

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Speaker 2: children with a smile on your face, you don't get

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Speaker 2: to say shit. Did you know I have seven children?

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Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? I never talk about them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. What are their names? Name them all. Danny. That's

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Speaker 1: a boy. And then there's a Danny girl. Oh.

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Speaker 2: Because we were so drunk when they were born. Twins. Uh-huh.

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Speaker 2: And of course, Maurice.

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Speaker 1: Don't ever forget Maurice.

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Speaker 2: You can't.

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Speaker 1: He rages if you don't. George, Frank, Blossom, Mimi, Elvis.

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Speaker 1: All right. Mo. Kevin. Kevin. Sorry, Pete, Kevin.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: This is a podcast. Listen, we're.

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Speaker 2: On people's televisions right now in some homes.

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Speaker 1: We're on the main stage. Hello.

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Speaker 2: Can we turn out a little more? Let people see

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Speaker 2: your sweater. Let's clear that mic. Amazing.

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Speaker 1: Amazing. It's a child's vintage sweater. It's too tight and

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Speaker 1: it's uncomfortable, but I just needed to wear it. It's

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Speaker 1: so good. It's tight. It's real tight. But it's pretty, like,

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of the island story that I did

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Speaker 1: that one time.

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Speaker 2: The Island of the Blue Dolphins? No, no.

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Speaker 1: The one... Oh. I curse you with my dying breath. That's, um...

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Speaker 1: It's got a good name. It's not Guantanamo. The Gua... Guadalajara.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: The Galapagos affair. That's what I said. I said it first.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Have you worn that before? I feel like I've never

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Speaker 2: seen it.

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Speaker 1: No. It's really good. I've been saving it. And it

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Speaker 1: actually ties into my story. That's why I'm... If I.

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Speaker 2: Had the longest arm ever, I could reach in and

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Speaker 2: see what the label is.

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Speaker 1: It's gone, but it's definitely a child's.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: You're very small. I'm busting out of this thing. It

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be on me at all.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a lace-up back that you're trying to close.

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Speaker 1: Did you see there's a woman in like, you know, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: let's say, who found, that's like, you know, somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Could be Vermont.

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Speaker 1: Who, okay, her grandfather had a department store in the

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Speaker 1: like 50s through the 90s. And she inherited the warehouses

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Speaker 1: full of the backstock that never went out.

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Speaker 2: From the 50s to the 90s?

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Speaker 1: Yes. And she's posting it all for sale. I bought

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Speaker 1: a couple things. What? And it's everything from like the

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Speaker 1: alarm clock that your mom had in its original box

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Speaker 1: to like tapestries. Tons of garter belts and like undies

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Speaker 1: and bullet bras and just like the craziest shit. It's

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Speaker 1: called Opa's something. Can you look that up for me?

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Speaker 1: Opa's treasure.

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Speaker 2: Opa.

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Speaker 1: Opa, like your Opa. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: A Greek grandfather. Yeah. That, first of all, made my

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Speaker 2: mouth start watering just as you were like, A woman's grandfather.

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Speaker 1: And then I was like, this is going to be good.

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Speaker 1: Something's good.

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Speaker 2: But that idea, there is a portal opening there with

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Speaker 2: people going to be, being able to suddenly go back

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Speaker 2: and have in their hands the thing they've missed and wanted.

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Speaker 1: And of course, for all us fucking weirdos, the original box. Yes.

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Speaker 1: This is the most important part of vintage vintage. shopping.

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Speaker 2: The true time travel of the way it used to be.

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Speaker 1: In the box. Original box, original like manual.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: There's like roller skates. There's just, it's crazy. I've got

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Speaker 1: to be a part of this. You must. I bought

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Speaker 1: a thermos. I bought a fucking brand new dead stock.

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Speaker 2: Was it Holly Hobby on it?

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Speaker 1: Thermos. No, it's like, it's like, you know, windsurfing. 70s

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Speaker 1: like windsurfing. It's so rad.

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Speaker 2: Can I argue that that would be, well, maybe it's

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Speaker 2: late 70s, early 80s.

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Speaker 1: I don't even think there's windsurfing on it, but it's

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Speaker 1: got that vibe. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: It just made you think of windsurfing.

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Speaker 1: It just reminds you of windsurfing. Were you looking in

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Speaker 1: the mirror? I'm having a real windsurfing moment. Fall. A

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Speaker 1: fall girl.

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Speaker 2: You're a coastal grandma all the way. It's time.

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Speaker 1: I really am.

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Speaker 2: Or you have a coastal grandma knitting you clothes. Is

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Speaker 2: there a brick and mortar location?

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Speaker 1: No, she's just posting it on this like messy website

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Speaker 1: for sale that's like, it's so clear that she's just like, shit,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Just throwing it on.

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Speaker 2: It's like, And are you in any way worried that

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Speaker 2: if you don't gatekeep this from the murderitos, they're going

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Speaker 2: to go buy it?

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Speaker 1: Well, I've done a couple searches. I bought what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to buy. I've done it already before I told everyone.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Sorry.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. You cleared it. Molly found it. It's called

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Speaker 1: Opa's Vintage Gal. And go buy your weird stuff that's

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Speaker 1: like made of asbestos and mothballs. Yeah, be very careful.

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Speaker 2: There's certain... dishes you can't have because there's lead in them.

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Speaker 1: Don't do the cocaine that you buy from there.

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Speaker 2: If you find little bags of cocaine inside a record sleeve,

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Speaker 2: it's not for you. That's for another time. And also

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Speaker 2: it's just, it's baking soda level strength.

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Speaker 1: Right. Or it's those things that come with the clothes

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Speaker 1: that your cats try to eat.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: The silica gel pack. Hey, speaking of don't eat these

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Speaker 1: poisonous things, we have a Tylenol poisoning update.

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Speaker 2: Incredible.

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Speaker 1: So incredible. So I covered the Chicago Tylenol poisonings in

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Speaker 1: episode 43 in arrears, which I now know what that

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Speaker 1: means thanks to you. And it's been one of those

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Speaker 1: cases that just always stuck with us. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: just who fucking did it? I would have bet money

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Speaker 1: on Ted Kaczynski just because of the connections. However... Recently,

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Speaker 1: a man who was found dead from suicide by cyanide

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Speaker 1: poisoning in an Idaho church back in December of 1982

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Speaker 1: has been identified through DNA as Dr. Matthew Francis Bukowski.

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Speaker 1: And so Bukowski was a chemist who had struggled with

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Speaker 1: mental health issues and who had gone missing from Jacksonville,

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Speaker 1: Florida that same year in 1982. Over the course of

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Speaker 1: their reopened investigation, police learned that he had been preoccupied

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Speaker 1: with cyanide and that he spoke at work about how

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Speaker 1: easy it would be to tamper with over-the-counter medicine. So

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Speaker 1: they found him in December. The poisonings happened in like September,

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Speaker 1: I believe. So super close. When going through his possessions,

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Speaker 1: investigators found maps of Chicago where the Tylenol poisonings had

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Speaker 1: taken place. Those murders began, as I said, in September

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Speaker 1: of 1982, just three months before Bukowski was found dead,

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Speaker 1: never identified. His family was originally from L.A. and was prominent.

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Speaker 1: His grandfather had been a city council member. Investigators have

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Speaker 1: not officially named him as a suspect in the Tylenol poisonings,

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Speaker 1: but have announced the, quote, connection. So I think we're

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Speaker 1: going to get more information and, you know, how easy

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Speaker 1: I am to believe things. I buy it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's adding up.

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Speaker 1: It all adds up until it falls apart.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Also, just for a case that had no suspects,

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Speaker 2: no answers, no nothing, to have an area where clearly

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Speaker 2: investigators were like, we have hit upon something meaningful. That's

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Speaker 2: why it's made it to the news.

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Speaker 1: And a mystery on a mystery. Like, they found this

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Speaker 1: guy and for decades they didn't know who he was.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out just these weird little connections that

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Speaker 1: someone made.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Here's what is a true trip, I think, probably

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Speaker 2: for especially the younger people that listen to the show,

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Speaker 2: for most of my young life, there was no tamper-proof

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Speaker 2: anything on any medicine. And this doctor was right. It's

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Speaker 2: almost like the worst part of him took over, like

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Speaker 2: a Jekyll and Hyde thing. The doctor part of him

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Speaker 2: was like, this is not safe. And then it's like,

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Speaker 2: I'll make it not safe.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine like being at the water cooler? Allegedly. Allegedly.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine being at the water cooler and someone

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Speaker 1: just dropping that? Hey, you know how you could kill

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Speaker 1: a lot of people really easily. Like, oh, shit.

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Speaker 2: And you hold it for years because the vibe of

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Speaker 2: it is so bad that you're like, I absolutely will

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Speaker 2: never forget when he.

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Speaker 1: Said that to me. And then he went missing. Yep. Yeah. Creepy.

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Speaker 2: Very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to get into the Cornell 7.

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Speaker 1: We just have to get into it because we need

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Speaker 1: to talk about it. We're all on social media.

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Speaker 2: Some of us to a terrible degree where we're buying

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Speaker 2: foundation online and then it doesn't match our skin. But

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Speaker 2: here's the experience that I had yesterday in watching it,

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Speaker 2: hearing about it, hearing everything. There was a guy who

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Speaker 2: went in and read the, I believe it's an affidavit

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Speaker 2: or some sort of official statement that was, say it

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Speaker 2: was 40 pages long. And he kept saying pages 23

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Speaker 2: to 27 almost made me throw up at my desk.

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Speaker 2: So we don't know what actually happened. Technically. And for

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Speaker 2: people that we are in the media, we can't be

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Speaker 2: saying what happened.

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Speaker 1: We don't know.

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Speaker 2: But we know what people close to it are saying.

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Speaker 2: We know what student reporters at that Cornell student newspaper investigated.

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Speaker 1: We know what Jane Doe is saying.

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Speaker 2: And we know what Jane Doe is saying.

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Speaker 1: And we believe that. Because, and I love this movement,

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Speaker 1: we are all Jane Doe.

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Speaker 2: We're all Jane Doe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that idea that some fucked up person thinks they're

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Speaker 2: going to expose Jane Doe for some reason will, to me, ignite... Finally,

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Speaker 2: I think, in this country, it's like, how much further

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Speaker 2: can you push women to be like, sorry, you're going

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Speaker 2: to do that for what reason? How will that serve anything?

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about? So watching video after video

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Speaker 2: of women being like, I'm Jane Doe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like that in my life.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you have. Me too. That's why I'm so sorry

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Speaker 1: to be such a cynic, but yes, we have. It doesn't,

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Speaker 1: I just feel like it doesn't fucking change. We just

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Speaker 1: keep having these fucking instances. Brock Turner, like, That should

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Speaker 1: have fucking taught everyone a lesson.

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Speaker 2: But sorry, who's it going to teach a lesson to?

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Speaker 2: The lesson is not going to go to the rapist.

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Speaker 1: Not the rapist. I mean that like that women somehow

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Speaker 1: get to start not being afraid.

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Speaker 2: By joining up together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's the way.

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Speaker 2: And before, I think Me Too was like a social

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Speaker 2: media version, which was all very new. It was brand new.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't catch fire the first time. You have to

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Speaker 2: hit that match and hit that match. What I'm saying is,

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Speaker 2: this seems different to me. I mean, the women that

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Speaker 2: are watching everything are not watching passively anymore, and they're

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Speaker 2: not watching as if it's somebody else anymore. That's what

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Speaker 2: it feels.

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Speaker 1: Like to me. Yeah, I hope so. It definitely, it

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Speaker 1: feels like it could be something huge if we make

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Speaker 1: it that.

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Speaker 2: I think that women are just, with every horrifying experience,

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Speaker 2: it's not saying it makes anything better. It's just saying

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Speaker 2: women are uniting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's less and less happening that people are able to

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Speaker 2: be manipulated at the outset by, here, we're going to

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Speaker 2: string up this witch.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: That is not happening in a way that I think

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Speaker 2: is very different, even from the Me Too movement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Because that became, look at how crazy and fucked this is.

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Speaker 2: But when we're talking about coordinated gang rape that then

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Speaker 2: gets put on a text thread with 50 fucking seven people...

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Speaker 2: That's what people are saying. Expose it. Stand up against it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Get pissed off about it. Yeah. I love that.

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Speaker 1: And teach your sons just to not be fucking rapists.

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Speaker 2: Give a shit about what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Right. To stand up against them. Not even don't be

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Speaker 1: a rapist. Stand up against the wrongdoings that you see. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And of course, we have to say this is all alleged.

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Speaker 1: And also, we are recording this a week before this

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Speaker 1: comes out, just to keep that in mind.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Also, I think it would be much easier for

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Speaker 2: people to talk about stuff like this if journalists had jobs,

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Speaker 2: if newspapers were not owned or all shut down.

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Speaker 1: And if our president wasn't a rapist, too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if the rape culture wasn't absolutely celebrated and then

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Speaker 2: ignored and then celebrated and then wrestling on the lawn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of that. Now, let's podcast.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. It's a true crime podcast and

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Speaker 2: this is a serious fucking crime.

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Speaker 1: Truly crime.

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Speaker 2: It's a real bad crime that people have to start

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Speaker 2: feeling is a real bad crime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And also believing women when they say, your friend

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Speaker 1: is creepy, don't leave me alone with him.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Like, then they're not friends with that person anymore. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's like, it's the thing of like, every woman knows

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Speaker 1: someone who was sexually assaulted, but men don't know anyone

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Speaker 1: who's a fucking rapist, turns out.

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Speaker 2: It's very strange math.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Boy math.

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Speaker 2: That is a piece of it, maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Is me too, everyone, all the men, even the good ones,

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Speaker 2: quote unquote, that I knew were like... this is very

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Speaker 2: dangerous and people could lose their careers or whatever. And

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Speaker 2: it's like, right, but we've been stopped by that over

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Speaker 2: and over again. And it turns out they need to.

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Speaker 2: It turns out there need to be consequences to, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, thinking that you can do something like that

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Speaker 2: to a human being.

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Speaker 1: Your actions and your inactions, there are consequences for those things.

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Speaker 1: Exactly right. Media, here are some highlights.

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Speaker 2: This week... On this podcast, we'll kill you. Aaron and

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Speaker 2: Erin are joined by award-winning author Robert Kolker to discuss

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Speaker 2: his new book, The Vanishing Family, which explores one family's

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Speaker 2: experience with hereditary frontotemporal dementia. and what it means for

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Speaker 2: the future of dementia research.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I have to read that.

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Speaker 2: I will not be reading it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's fair. Please let me know. I'll let you

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Speaker 1: know to not read it.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Over on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul go back to

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Speaker 1: 1955 to discover.

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Speaker 2: A department store filled with goods.

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Speaker 1: Right. To discover the investigation of United Airlines Flight 629

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00:14:08,309 --> 00:14:11,710
Speaker 1: that exploded over Colorado shortly after takeoff. We've covered that.

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Speaker 1: As authorities search for answers, the evidence begins to reveal

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Speaker 1: that it was no accident. Fascinating story. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Over on Hollywoodland, Jake and Zeth uncover the real-life 1908

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Speaker 2: murder mystery that helped inspire Twin Peaks. This unsolved murder

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Speaker 2: of a young woman named Hazel Drew in idyllic New

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Speaker 2: York town revealed a world of corruption, deceit, and even

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Speaker 2: more murder.

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Speaker 1: Then check out bananas. Kurt and Scotty talk about a

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Speaker 1: tarantula owner's quest to make sure his pet doesn't die

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Speaker 1: a virgin. Aww. France's record heat wave leading to historic

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Speaker 1: champagne levels and... I appreciate that. So good. And on

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Speaker 1: a related note, whether regular social drinking could actually be

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Speaker 1: good for your health. The answer is no, and... I

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Speaker 1: got a letter in the actual mail from Kurt and

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Speaker 1: Scotty because they were doing the Dry 69 challenge for bananas. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And they sent me a Dry 69. I did it.

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Speaker 1: Bumper sticker, like a little note. How amazing is that?

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Speaker 1: That's the cutest. So I was like, how did you

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Speaker 1: get my address? And then I was like, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Stay away from my door.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That was really sweet.

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Speaker 2: That's very sweet. Just so you know, I wrote in

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Speaker 2: the answers now for you.

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Speaker 1: Oh, good. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Right as you do this huge accomplishment where you're just like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I did this thing.

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Speaker 1: I feel great.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, hey, guess what?

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Speaker 1: Everything's fine. It turns out.

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Speaker 2: And hey, listen, look, get out your gowns because it's

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Speaker 2: award season for a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey.

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Speaker 2: Five of our Exactly Right shows have been nominated for

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Speaker 2: Signal Awards.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah.

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Speaker 2: Two-Face, John of God, which was our limited series. From

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Speaker 2: Adande Media.

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Speaker 1: Incredible.

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Speaker 2: I Said No Gifts with the great Bridger Weininger. Disgraceland,

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Speaker 2: Jake Brennan's amazing show. Of course, Brief Recess with the

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Speaker 2: star of Traitors.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Michael Foote and, of course, Melissa Malabrant. And The Knife,

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Speaker 2: our beloved The Knife with Hannah and Pasha.

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Speaker 1: Amazing.

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Speaker 2: This is a listener favorite situation. You have to go vote.

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Speaker 2: If you love these podcasts as much as we do,

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Speaker 2: and we know you do, please go to SignalAward.com and

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00:16:13,950 --> 00:16:16,570
Speaker 2: vote for your favorites. You have until October 15th.

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Speaker 1: Do it.

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Speaker 2: Your vote matters.

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Speaker 1: That's so huge. I mean, it means so much to

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Speaker 1: get an award like that. So please vote. SignalAward.com. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm first and only today. That's right. I've got a

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Speaker 1: doozy for you that I am excited to tell you about.

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Speaker 1: I've been immersed in this now.

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Speaker 2: It's just a fight with your neighbor. I've been immersed

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Speaker 2: since I moved into my house.

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Speaker 1: Jairus, you are on. Here's a photo of my neighbor. No,

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Speaker 1: we're the best neighbors. Okay. This is a story of

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Speaker 1: a different kind of killer. It's February 24th, 2010, and

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Speaker 1: we're in Orlando, Florida at SeaWorld. Oh, okay. And a

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Speaker 1: trainer named Don Brancho is performing with one of the

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Speaker 1: park's many orcas, or Shamu whales. This whale's name is Tilikum,

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Speaker 1: and Don will be the third person whose death is

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Speaker 1: attributed to Tilikum. This is the story of Tilikum, the

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Speaker 1: killer whale who killed three people before SeaWorld finally stopped

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Speaker 1: letting trainers get in the water with killer whales. Oh,

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Speaker 1: my God.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:29,090
Speaker 1: I see. There he is.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and then psychically, I was like, I'll do your theme.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Blue. Hi.

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Speaker 2: Deep Blue. I'm the deep sea.

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Speaker 1: So this is... Where Tilikum belongs. That's right. So this story, okay,

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Speaker 1: I first found out the story from an article in

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Speaker 1: Outside magazine. Your favorite. My favorite. Actually, they have really great, like,

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Speaker 1: in-depth articles. And this one was by Tim Zimmerman. And

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Speaker 1: when I pitched it to Allie Elkin and Molly Smith

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Speaker 1: of Exactly Right Media, they, I've never seen them so

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Speaker 1: excited about a story. And Allie, like, researching this and

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Speaker 1: writing this was so excited about it. So I love that.

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Speaker 1: Love it. Their excitement over this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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00:18:05,090 --> 00:18:08,290
Speaker 1: Also, I listened to a book called Beneath the Surface

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Speaker 1: by John Hargrove. He's a former senior orca trainer at SeaWorld,

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Speaker 1: and it has been on both sides of the, like,

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Speaker 1: for and against.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what an incredible perspective.

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Speaker 1: He just has, yeah, he can tell you everything. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a really great book that explains why and how

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Speaker 1: someone gets into that and what it means and what

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Speaker 1: really happens. Wow. Okay. And then the other main sources

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Speaker 1: are the documentary Blackfish, of course, and the book Death

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Speaker 1: at SeaWorld by David Kirby. Also a 1997 frontline episode

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Speaker 1: called A Whale of a Business. Boo.

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 1: You love it.

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Speaker 2: Noah.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. It's like the most serious... episode I've seen

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Speaker 1: and it's there someone was like having fun.

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Speaker 2: That day you're gonna have a whale of a good

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Speaker 2: time knock it off also no one says that anymore.

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Speaker 1: No all right so let's go back and let's get

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Speaker 1: a little bit of info about Tilikum and SeaWorld so

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Speaker 1: by 2010 when this episode with Dawn happens nearly all

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Speaker 1: of the whales at SeaWorld had been born in captivity

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Speaker 1: but not Tilikum He is an 80s baby and was

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Speaker 1: born in the wild. Much of what we actually know

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Speaker 1: about orcas, and orcas and killer whales are interchangeable names here,

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Speaker 1: has been learned very recently in the past couple decades.

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Speaker 1: So we know that they are generally highly social creatures

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Speaker 1: that form tight-knit family networks with their pods. The pods

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Speaker 1: communicate with each other in distinct languages. even accents and dialects.

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Speaker 1: So like one's like Boston and one's from like, you know,

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Speaker 1: Dublin and they don't understand each other kind of. They're

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Speaker 1: like Worcester. Exactly. Orca societies are matriarchal. And even after

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Speaker 1: they grow up and begin having their own babies, orcas

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Speaker 1: stay with their mothers their entire lives. They go to

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Speaker 1: other pods to breed.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: You're back with Janet.

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Speaker 1: Oh, no.

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Speaker 2: In your bunk bed.

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Speaker 1: She's trying to put you to bed. Yeah, we're living

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00:20:05,010 --> 00:20:08,619
Speaker 1: in an RV for some reason. Yeah. I'm thinking about, like,

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00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,990
Speaker 1: the tightest quarters I could think of.

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00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's just touching elbows with you the whole time.

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00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,580
Speaker 1: Oh, okay. I'm sweating.

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00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,120
Speaker 2: Me and my mom in my front room, and she's like,

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Speaker 2: put some lipstick on. You look like a corpse. Put

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00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:20,220
Speaker 2: some lipstick on.

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00:20:21,140 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 1: So, and then the little pods are centered around the

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Speaker 1: oldest female. So, this orca craze started in 1965 when

442
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,180
Speaker 1: a 22-foot male orca was unintentionally captured in a salmon

443
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: net off the coast of Namu. The man who caught

444
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:39,300
Speaker 1: the whale sold him to the Seattle Marine Aquarium, where

445
00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:43,020
Speaker 1: he began performing under the name Namu. He was so popular,

446
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: the aquarium captured a female killer whale who they named

447
00:20:46,220 --> 00:20:50,070
Speaker 1: Shamu and then leased to SeaWorld in San Diego. So

448
00:20:50,170 --> 00:20:53,190
Speaker 1: Namu and Shamu are both sensations, and this sets off

449
00:20:53,290 --> 00:20:57,770
Speaker 1: a frenzy of other aquarium and marine parks. which previously

450
00:20:57,810 --> 00:21:01,030
Speaker 1: sprung up around the craze for performing dolphins because of Flipper,

451
00:21:01,970 --> 00:21:04,980
Speaker 1: wanting to get their own performing killer whales.

452
00:21:05,260 --> 00:21:06,500
Speaker 2: Sorry, hold on really quick.

453
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:06,820
Speaker 1: Yeah.

454
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,340
Speaker 2: The TV show Flipper from the 50s and 60s is

455
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 2: why we have like Marine World and Sea World and

456
00:21:13,060 --> 00:21:13,260
Speaker 2: all that?

457
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,740
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. That's wild. The Frontline episode talks a lot

458
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: about that, how it happened. It's fucking so upsetting and troubling,

459
00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: I will warn you. This sets off an unregulated Wild

460
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:25,970
Speaker 1: West situation in the 60s, 70s, and 80s in which

461
00:21:26,050 --> 00:21:30,730
Speaker 1: professional hunters harass pods of killer whales with flash bombs

462
00:21:30,930 --> 00:21:35,310
Speaker 1: and other noisy objects. They funnel them into confined areas

463
00:21:35,910 --> 00:21:38,850
Speaker 1: and separate the smallest ones from their mothers to take

464
00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:42,050
Speaker 1: them to perform. And when this happens, the rest of

465
00:21:42,090 --> 00:21:46,170
Speaker 1: the pod stays nearby, watching the calf get lifted onto

466
00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:48,409
Speaker 1: a stretcher, onto a boat, and they're calling back and

467
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: forth to the calf the whole time. And supposedly it's

468
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,820
Speaker 1: heartbreaking to witness, not surprisingly. This is how Tilikum winds

469
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: up being captured as a baby off the coast of

470
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,340
Speaker 1: Iceland in 1983. And there's a whole thing about the

471
00:22:00,380 --> 00:22:04,100
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest whales and that practice getting banned here, having

472
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 1: to move to Alaska, getting banned there, and finally Iceland's like, whatever,

473
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: go ahead.

474
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 2: No.

475
00:22:09,260 --> 00:22:10,160
Speaker 1: Sorry, Iceland, yes.

476
00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:11,060
Speaker 2: They would never.

477
00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 1: They did. Because there's so many of them and they

478
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,109
Speaker 1: were saying it's ruining the fishing, you know, industry.

479
00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:19,550
Speaker 2: I'll just say that as a child of the 70s,

480
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:23,010
Speaker 2: and I'll use any excuse to talk about being a

481
00:22:23,030 --> 00:22:26,710
Speaker 2: child in the 70s, but my parents subscribed to National

482
00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: Geographic magazine, which was a game changer.

483
00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:30,060
Speaker 1: Yeah.

484
00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 2: I think it's so important and so incredible. And there

485
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,859
Speaker 2: was an issue of it that put out a 45

486
00:22:36,859 --> 00:22:41,590
Speaker 2: record on very floppy material, but right, of whale songs

487
00:22:42,190 --> 00:22:44,130
Speaker 2: when it was like the whole Save the Whales movement

488
00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:44,970
Speaker 2: started in the 70s.

489
00:22:45,130 --> 00:22:45,570
Speaker 1: Yeah.

490
00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:47,950
Speaker 2: And it was just as I was kind of like

491
00:22:48,030 --> 00:22:49,629
Speaker 2: becoming aware of all the things that I want to

492
00:22:49,650 --> 00:22:52,459
Speaker 2: read that magazine or whatever. So it was like saving

493
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: the whales and protecting whales and sea life like that

494
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,820
Speaker 2: were always this big part of at least California, maybe

495
00:23:00,980 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 2: Northern California culture.

496
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:02,659
Speaker 1: Right.

497
00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:05,980
Speaker 2: But meanwhile, this is actually what was happening.

498
00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:09,869
Speaker 1: Right. And also off of that, SeaWorld acted like they

499
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,110
Speaker 1: were part of this save the whales thing. Yeah. They

500
00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:14,810
Speaker 1: acted like they were doing a good thing by helping

501
00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:17,430
Speaker 1: save the whale and helping to protect.

502
00:23:17,850 --> 00:23:18,109
Speaker 2: Sure.

503
00:23:18,290 --> 00:23:20,230
Speaker 1: And like teach people about this.

504
00:23:21,070 --> 00:23:23,810
Speaker 2: And donate tons of money to make sure they're never harmed.

505
00:23:23,869 --> 00:23:27,030
Speaker 1: Exactly. So Tilikum is displayed for a year at an

506
00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: Iceland aquarium before being sold to a marine park called

507
00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:34,220
Speaker 1: Sealand of the Pacific in Oak Bay, British Columbia in 1985.

508
00:23:34,220 --> 00:23:37,700
Speaker 1: This is a smallish park with not a ton of

509
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: space to hold whales. It's like a big pool, essentially.

510
00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:46,129
Speaker 1: And then at night, Tilikum and two older females, they

511
00:23:46,270 --> 00:23:51,129
Speaker 1: are stored, essentially, in this small holding tank. in the dark,

512
00:23:51,490 --> 00:23:54,750
Speaker 1: and the females, the two older females, treat him, a

513
00:23:54,910 --> 00:23:57,730
Speaker 1: male newcomer, aggressively, as they do in their pods in

514
00:23:57,750 --> 00:24:02,340
Speaker 1: the wild. They rake his skin with his teeth, meaning

515
00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: they just almost like... With their teeth? Yeah, they rake

516
00:24:04,540 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: their teeth down his skin, and you can see that

517
00:24:06,660 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: there's like these cuts. He's bleeding when he's brought out

518
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,340
Speaker 1: to perform in the mornings, and it's just really awful

519
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,910
Speaker 1: and tragic. Sealand is often described as run down and rinky-dink,

520
00:24:19,540 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: It's kind of on its last leg. I think it

521
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,590
Speaker 1: had dolphins originally, and then they just replaced them with

522
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:29,690
Speaker 1: killer whales. The pools are small. The park has those

523
00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:32,970
Speaker 1: three killer whales who perform tricks. The park calls them behaviors,

524
00:24:33,050 --> 00:24:35,230
Speaker 1: but trainers here do not get in the water with

525
00:24:35,290 --> 00:24:38,750
Speaker 1: the whales. Even in 1985, they were like, that's not

526
00:24:38,770 --> 00:24:39,330
Speaker 1: a good idea.

527
00:24:39,730 --> 00:24:42,140
Speaker 2: They're what we call killer whales. Right.

528
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,740
Speaker 1: So on February 20th, 1991, a 20-year-old part-time trainer named

529
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:51,180
Speaker 1: Kelty Byrne who is a marine biology student and a

530
00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:54,820
Speaker 1: competitive swimmer, is wrapping up a show with Tilikum and

531
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,260
Speaker 1: the two other females. Kelty was a champion swimmer from Victoria,

532
00:24:59,340 --> 00:25:04,030
Speaker 1: British Columbia. So she's an incredible swimmer. Trainers in general

533
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,010
Speaker 1: are hired mostly for their swimming ability and their charisma.

534
00:25:07,170 --> 00:25:09,050
Speaker 1: And while they do have a love of animals and

535
00:25:09,070 --> 00:25:11,030
Speaker 1: learn a great deal about them, at this time, they

536
00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:14,609
Speaker 1: don't have to have any particular science or psychology background

537
00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:17,710
Speaker 1: to understand whales. Just seems.

538
00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:19,740
Speaker 2: Like something that should be regulated.

539
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: Right. Yes. So as Kelty is walking along the pool side,

540
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,850
Speaker 1: she slips and her foot falls into the pool. And

541
00:25:28,090 --> 00:25:30,670
Speaker 1: Tilikum at this point is about 10 years old. Having

542
00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:34,730
Speaker 1: lived in cramped conditions with older whales taking their aggression

543
00:25:34,830 --> 00:25:38,250
Speaker 1: out on him for years, he reacts as an animal

544
00:25:38,369 --> 00:25:42,100
Speaker 1: does and grabs Kelty's foot and drags her into the

545
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:46,060
Speaker 1: water along with the two dominant female orcas. So I

546
00:25:46,540 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: looked up. in our Gmail account, I just put in

547
00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:51,660
Speaker 1: Tilikum and I was like, there's no way someone already

548
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,580
Speaker 1: wrote in about this. Yeah, we had multiple emails about Tilikum,

549
00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:58,659
Speaker 1: including one from someone who wants to stay anonymous and

550
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,860
Speaker 1: go by Kay from 2020. Kay said, quote, I have

551
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: a degree from a respected university in marine mammal science

552
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: and marine conservation, worked for two plus years at SeaWorld Orlando,

553
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,460
Speaker 1: and I have personal experience working alongside Tilikum, Tilly, and

554
00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: animals like him. And this is how she explained what

555
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,540
Speaker 1: happened to Kelty when she was grabbed. Quote, the three

556
00:26:20,619 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: orcas submerged Kelty, dragging her around the pool in a

557
00:26:23,859 --> 00:26:27,420
Speaker 1: game of sorts, preventing her from surfacing. At one point,

558
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: she reached the side and tried to climb out, but

559
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: the orcas pulled her back into the pool. She surfaced

560
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,420
Speaker 1: three times before drowning, and it was several hours before

561
00:26:36,460 --> 00:26:39,330
Speaker 1: her body could be safely recovered from the pool. And again,

562
00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:42,410
Speaker 1: she was a champion swimmer. After this incident in which

563
00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:46,630
Speaker 1: Kelty Byrne dies, Celan sells all three killer whales to SeaWorld.

564
00:26:47,350 --> 00:26:49,350
Speaker 1: one of which is pregnant with the first of many

565
00:26:49,390 --> 00:26:52,869
Speaker 1: killer whales to be sired by Tilikum. That whale is

566
00:26:52,930 --> 00:26:56,050
Speaker 1: known as Kaiquat or Kai. You want to see a

567
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:58,270
Speaker 1: photo of Tilikum? Is now a good time?

568
00:26:58,470 --> 00:27:00,130
Speaker 2: I mean, will it ever be a good time? Here's

569
00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:02,670
Speaker 2: a photo of Tilikum. Also, just like when you swim

570
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:05,270
Speaker 2: in a pool for like three hours and your hair's

571
00:27:05,310 --> 00:27:08,510
Speaker 2: all fucked up and your skin feels terrible and your

572
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:09,250
Speaker 2: eyes are red.

573
00:27:09,270 --> 00:27:09,530
Speaker 1: Yeah.

574
00:27:10,030 --> 00:27:12,510
Speaker 2: And these are animals that are— that' s supposed to be their

575
00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:15,490
Speaker 2: air and their, like, surroundings, and then they're just in

576
00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:18,609
Speaker 2: a bright blue chlorinated pool like that.

577
00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: It just seems like it's so pristine, the water, compared

578
00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:26,540
Speaker 1: to what they need and thrive in. It's just very troubling.

579
00:27:26,859 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: So Tilikum arrives at SeaWorld just in time for a

580
00:27:29,380 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: killer whale craze to sweep the nation. Orca Madness reaches

581
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,699
Speaker 1: an absolute fever pitch— around the release of the movie

582
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: Free Willy in 1993. You remember that? Yeah. People lost

583
00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: their minds.

584
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 2: They got the children on the orca's side.

585
00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:46,990
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah. And it's possibly why many millennials believed

586
00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:50,990
Speaker 1: they would grow up to be marine biologists. K.R. Murderino

587
00:27:51,030 --> 00:27:53,550
Speaker 1: in residence says, the vast majority of people hired for

588
00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:57,070
Speaker 1: positions in animal training are psychology grads who earn their

589
00:27:57,109 --> 00:28:02,109
Speaker 1: spot only after passing grueling swim-based and psychosocial examinations. Despite

590
00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:04,129
Speaker 1: what certain groups will lead you to believe, nobody is

591
00:28:04,170 --> 00:28:07,190
Speaker 1: walking off the street and jumping onto a whale at SeaWorld.

592
00:28:07,210 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: We believe you.

593
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in that book that I read, the one

594
00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:14,100
Speaker 1: called Beneath the Surface, talks about everything you had to

595
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,070
Speaker 1: do to become a SeaWorld trainer.

596
00:28:16,190 --> 00:28:19,169
Speaker 2: I'd love to take a psychosocial SeaWorld test. Fail.

597
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:22,270
Speaker 1: You fail. Immediate fail. What? Take her to jail.

598
00:28:22,290 --> 00:28:23,110
Speaker 2: Straight to jail.

599
00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:24,629
Speaker 1: Straight to jail. Yeah, we should find that out. That'd

600
00:28:24,650 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: be a good fan call video.

601
00:28:25,619 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: It'd be like, you're just holding a herring and staring

602
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: into someone's eyes.

603
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: Don't look away. What are you going to do? What

604
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: are you going to do? So in this atmosphere of

605
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,220
Speaker 1: increased popularity of killer whales from the movie Free Willy,

606
00:28:35,770 --> 00:28:38,860
Speaker 1: SeaWorld faces some scrutiny over the practice of keeping whales

607
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: and other mammals like dolphins in captivity for the purpose

608
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,260
Speaker 1: of entertainment. Activists regularly protest the practice, and throughout the

609
00:28:46,580 --> 00:28:49,350
Speaker 1: 90s and early 2000s, there's mounting evidence that the whales

610
00:28:49,790 --> 00:28:52,490
Speaker 1: are not doing well in captivity and that their living

611
00:28:52,530 --> 00:28:56,070
Speaker 1: conditions are making them aggressive. And to this day, the

612
00:28:56,210 --> 00:29:00,310
Speaker 1: only known instance of killer whales killing people or almost

613
00:29:00,350 --> 00:29:03,030
Speaker 1: killing people, the only times that have happened... is with

614
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,430
Speaker 1: captive whales. So in the wild, there's been a couple

615
00:29:06,510 --> 00:29:09,110
Speaker 1: isolated incidents where a wild killer whale has bitten a

616
00:29:09,130 --> 00:29:13,470
Speaker 1: person in a wetsuit, but they've never displayed this dragging behavior.

617
00:29:13,490 --> 00:29:15,940
Speaker 1: And as soon as they realize in the wild it's

618
00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:17,940
Speaker 1: a person and not a seal, they let the person

619
00:29:17,980 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: go and the person has survived.

620
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:19,820
Speaker 2: Wow.

621
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: So.

622
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: Because they have those little round teeth. They don't have

623
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: shark teeth. They have those little funny teeth.

624
00:29:25,030 --> 00:29:27,470
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of them and they're big. Yeah,

625
00:29:27,490 --> 00:29:28,490
Speaker 1: they're large.

626
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:31,130
Speaker 2: But they make me laugh because it's like you look

627
00:29:31,130 --> 00:29:33,070
Speaker 2: at this thing and you're like, oh, this is so scary.

628
00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:35,530
Speaker 2: And then they're like, ding. with just like funny little teeth.

629
00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:38,170
Speaker 1: Little plushies. You got to sell those little plushies. Yeah.

630
00:29:38,650 --> 00:29:40,730
Speaker 1: So back to the captive whales. On the morning of

631
00:29:40,790 --> 00:29:45,490
Speaker 1: July 7th, 1999, Tilikum is discovered swimming around his tank

632
00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:49,780
Speaker 1: at SeaWorld with a body of a man, naked man,

633
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,740
Speaker 1: draped across his back. And that's actually a behavior they'll

634
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: do is they'll play with their food. So they'll do

635
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,420
Speaker 1: it when a seagull will land in the pool. They'll

636
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,380
Speaker 1: toy with it and kill it and then put it

637
00:29:59,420 --> 00:30:02,140
Speaker 1: on their back and like cruise around with it, like

638
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:04,900
Speaker 1: showing it off. And in the morning when someone gets there,

639
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: they see that there's a man dead draped across his back.

640
00:30:07,980 --> 00:30:10,550
Speaker 1: Officials will later determine that this man was named Daniel

641
00:30:10,660 --> 00:30:14,030
Speaker 1: Dukes and that he was 27 and from South Carolina.

642
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:16,850
Speaker 1: Very little has been published about him, but he was

643
00:30:16,970 --> 00:30:20,550
Speaker 1: a drifter and a self-professed environmentalist. And it sounds like

644
00:30:20,570 --> 00:30:23,690
Speaker 1: he probably suffered from some degree of mental illness. It

645
00:30:23,710 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: appears that he hid in the park after closing time

646
00:30:26,770 --> 00:30:30,050
Speaker 1: with the intention of swimming with the killer whales. And

647
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:33,610
Speaker 1: there are nighttime security, like they should have been able

648
00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:34,110
Speaker 1: to stop him.

649
00:30:34,290 --> 00:30:38,810
Speaker 2: Right. But you wouldn't expect anyone to want to do that.

650
00:30:39,790 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: And he was clearly not aware that only some of

651
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: the whales were cleared to have trainers even in the

652
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: water with them. And Tilikum was expressly not one of

653
00:30:49,540 --> 00:30:52,860
Speaker 1: those whales. SeaWorld is very quick to paint Daniel as

654
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,300
Speaker 1: some sort of deviant. Later, a former trainer named Rick

655
00:30:56,380 --> 00:30:59,100
Speaker 1: O'Berry will say, quote, the problem is that the whales

656
00:30:59,140 --> 00:31:02,910
Speaker 1: have nothing better to do. They're bored. We literally bore

657
00:31:02,950 --> 00:31:05,310
Speaker 1: them to death. It's like you living in a bathroom

658
00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:09,010
Speaker 1: for your life. And autopsy reports state that Dukes had

659
00:31:09,150 --> 00:31:11,790
Speaker 1: no drugs or alcohol in his system, and the cause

660
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:14,130
Speaker 1: of death was deemed to be drowning. But I also

661
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:16,650
Speaker 1: saw hypothermia somewhere because the water's kept at 55 degrees.

662
00:31:17,950 --> 00:31:21,390
Speaker 1: But he was also like mangled before death as well.

663
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:24,770
Speaker 1: It's really disturbing. I take back what I said about

664
00:31:24,790 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: the teeth. That was incorrect. So in 2004, SeaWorld has

665
00:31:32,620 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: a close call out at San Antonio Park with another

666
00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:40,060
Speaker 1: highly experienced trainer, a man named Steve Abel. And these

667
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:44,950
Speaker 1: little close encounters are in the movie Blackfish, the documentary Blackfish.

668
00:31:45,070 --> 00:31:46,830
Speaker 1: And I was so mad that I had to watch

669
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:49,780
Speaker 1: it again for this because it is so stressful.

670
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,940
Speaker 2: Oh, I've never seen it because I can't deal with it.

671
00:31:51,940 --> 00:31:55,780
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't. It's incredible. It's so well made. It

672
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,610
Speaker 1: is so fucking disturbing. Yeah. You should watch it.

673
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,940
Speaker 2: Is that the same one as the one, it's not,

674
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: the cove where they show?

675
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,610
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no. Murdering dolphins. I've seen that too.

676
00:32:05,660 --> 00:32:07,010
Speaker 1: It's fucking awful. They're all awful.

677
00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:09,970
Speaker 2: I think I've gotten into one documentary in an area

678
00:32:10,010 --> 00:32:12,550
Speaker 2: where I was like, well, now I'm haunted forever because

679
00:32:12,590 --> 00:32:15,190
Speaker 2: my brain takes pictures and shows me randomly. So I

680
00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:16,370
Speaker 2: can't have that in there.

681
00:32:16,390 --> 00:32:19,270
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe don't watch Blackfish. Great. It's so good.

682
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:22,969
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure it is. I think it changed. Yes.

683
00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:27,340
Speaker 1: It changed things. It did. So Steve Abel is performing

684
00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: with Kai, which is Tilikum's first son, who's now 13

685
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,770
Speaker 1: years old. And this is, again, in San Antonio SeaWorld.

686
00:32:33,270 --> 00:32:37,430
Speaker 1: Kai starts breaching and slamming down on Steve in the water.

687
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:39,830
Speaker 1: And there's video of this. And Steve seems to get

688
00:32:39,910 --> 00:32:43,219
Speaker 1: underwater in time to not be seriously injured from the impact.

689
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,020
Speaker 1: Then he stops Steve from getting out of the pool

690
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,980
Speaker 1: at the exit ramp and pushes him around the pool. Mm-hmm. Somehow,

691
00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:52,260
Speaker 1: after about a minute of this, Steve seems to calm

692
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 1: the whale down and leap over him to exit the pool.

693
00:32:55,980 --> 00:32:59,790
Speaker 1: And it's pretty incredible that he, it just shows how

694
00:32:59,870 --> 00:33:02,410
Speaker 1: good he was as a trainer that he was able

695
00:33:02,750 --> 00:33:05,070
Speaker 1: to escape this thing that maybe he shouldn't have been

696
00:33:05,090 --> 00:33:08,230
Speaker 1: in in the first place, we'll argue. But still.

697
00:33:08,250 --> 00:33:08,470
Speaker 2: Right.

698
00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:10,510
Speaker 1: And it appears Steve still works for SeaWorld and is

699
00:33:10,570 --> 00:33:12,130
Speaker 1: pretty high up in the company.

700
00:33:12,150 --> 00:33:14,150
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, after that, you would be like, no

701
00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:14,980
Speaker 2: one can touch me.

702
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,710
Speaker 1: Totally. I beat a Killer whale. Layoffs? I don't think so.

703
00:33:18,780 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: No way. I'm running this place.

704
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: This happens again two years later in 2006 at SeaWorld

705
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: in San Diego with a female whale named Kasaka and

706
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:32,550
Speaker 1: a trainer named Ken Peters. And in this incident, Kasaka

707
00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:34,989
Speaker 1: drags Ken to the bottom of the pool by his

708
00:33:35,090 --> 00:33:38,950
Speaker 1: foot two different times, each stretch for about a minute.

709
00:33:39,250 --> 00:33:43,070
Speaker 1: And again, Ken is so good at his job that

710
00:33:43,490 --> 00:33:46,430
Speaker 1: he manages to control his exhale while he's being dragged under.

711
00:33:47,030 --> 00:33:48,650
Speaker 1: They have to have these crazy lungs and they have

712
00:33:48,690 --> 00:33:50,570
Speaker 1: to like, part of their test is holding their breath

713
00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:53,490
Speaker 1: for this insane amount of time. Oh, in a psychosocial test?

714
00:33:54,030 --> 00:33:54,190
Speaker 2: Yes.

715
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:56,110
Speaker 1: Okay. Yes. And then like swimming down to the bottom

716
00:33:56,130 --> 00:33:58,810
Speaker 1: of this huge tank, grabbing a weight and like coming

717
00:33:58,850 --> 00:34:01,850
Speaker 1: to the top and then going back and forth like laps. Right.

718
00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:03,250
Speaker 1: We could definitely do it.

719
00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:07,350
Speaker 2: We could do it so easy. But there is serious qualifications.

720
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:11,100
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like the scuba diving experience, but also, I mean, yeah,

721
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on.

722
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:12,219
Speaker 2: Yeah.

723
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:15,950
Speaker 1: So somehow Ken manages to, you know, control his exhale

724
00:34:16,050 --> 00:34:18,970
Speaker 1: and hold his breath. And then he's able to stroke

725
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:21,989
Speaker 1: the whale's head, calming her down until she actually does

726
00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:25,230
Speaker 1: let him go. And Ken's wetsuit is torn at the

727
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:28,230
Speaker 1: leg and the bite has broken his foot. Again, there's

728
00:34:28,830 --> 00:34:31,969
Speaker 1: in Blackfish, there is video of this. And again, this

729
00:34:32,010 --> 00:34:35,130
Speaker 1: is all in front of crowds of children.

730
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:37,109
Speaker 2: And they're screaming, crying children.

731
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:42,060
Speaker 1: It seems like SeaWorld is not at all chastened by this,

732
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,489
Speaker 1: saying Katsaka will likely be allowed to continue performing. I

733
00:34:45,530 --> 00:34:46,850
Speaker 1: think a lot of the times they just chalk this

734
00:34:46,910 --> 00:34:51,930
Speaker 1: up to trainer error rather than acknowledging how dangerous this is.

735
00:34:52,489 --> 00:34:56,109
Speaker 1: Three years after this, in December 2009, a trainer named

736
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: Alexis Martinez, a man, is killed by a performing killer

737
00:34:59,820 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: whale named at a marine park called Loro Parque in

738
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:06,299
Speaker 1: the Canary Islands. The park is not owned by SeaWorld,

739
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: but the whale is. They have this transactional thing. They

740
00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:13,950
Speaker 1: lose them or something. Yeah. And it had been on

741
00:35:14,010 --> 00:35:18,070
Speaker 1: loan to Loro Parque. And while SeaWorld downplays the relationship

742
00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:21,930
Speaker 1: between the parks, SeaWorld trainers, including Dawn from the beginning

743
00:35:21,950 --> 00:35:26,210
Speaker 1: of our story, had supervised and trained Loro Parque trainers.

744
00:35:26,410 --> 00:35:29,310
Speaker 1: So there is a relationship there. Don had worked with

745
00:35:29,330 --> 00:35:33,209
Speaker 1: Alexis previously, and Alexis is known to be the top

746
00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:36,189
Speaker 1: trainer at this park in a place where you didn't

747
00:35:36,270 --> 00:35:39,779
Speaker 1: actually have to be that good. Their standards were way lower,

748
00:35:39,860 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: and he was incredible. He was really charismatic. Everyone loved

749
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,100
Speaker 1: him and looked up to him. So this happening to

750
00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:50,860
Speaker 1: the best of them says so much. The killer whale

751
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,620
Speaker 1: named Keto had pulled Alexis underwater, then rammed him in

752
00:35:54,660 --> 00:36:00,140
Speaker 1: the chest, causing massive internal bleeding. These are gigantic. Yeah.

753
00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten to how big they are, but

754
00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:04,259
Speaker 1: picture an elephant. Picture a full-grown elephant.

755
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:04,860
Speaker 2: Underwater.

756
00:36:04,940 --> 00:36:07,990
Speaker 1: Underwater. With a little eye that's looking at you. Yeah. Yeah.

757
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: And the teeth.

758
00:36:09,390 --> 00:36:13,190
Speaker 1: So this all brings us to two months later. It's, again,

759
00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:17,110
Speaker 1: February 24th, 2010, and we are in Orlando, Florida at SeaWorld.

760
00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:20,710
Speaker 1: Dawn Brancho is 40 years old and one of the

761
00:36:20,750 --> 00:36:25,490
Speaker 1: most experienced trainers at SeaWorld.com. Orlando. Again, it's not newbies

762
00:36:25,530 --> 00:36:26,629
Speaker 1: that this stuff is happening to.

763
00:36:26,750 --> 00:36:26,910
Speaker 2: Yeah.

764
00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:30,450
Speaker 1: She trains the other trainers. She's huge on safety and

765
00:36:30,510 --> 00:36:33,450
Speaker 1: teaches the less experienced trainers all the techniques and practices

766
00:36:33,489 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: that Searold has put into place over the last 20 years.

767
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,900
Speaker 1: Dawn herself is married to a man named Scott. They

768
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,379
Speaker 1: live in an Orlando suburb with two chocolate labs. She's

769
00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: got a magnetic personality. In high school, she was the

770
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,020
Speaker 1: class president and the homecoming queen. Her Christmas card list

771
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:53,190
Speaker 1: is 250 people long. Working at SeaWorld as a trainer

772
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:56,569
Speaker 1: had been Dawn's childhood dream after her own family had

773
00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:59,230
Speaker 1: seen a Shamu show at SeaWorld when she was a child.

774
00:36:59,830 --> 00:37:02,430
Speaker 1: After college, she worked with dolphins at Six Flags Great

775
00:37:02,469 --> 00:37:05,230
Speaker 1: Adventures in New Jersey before getting a job at SeaWorld

776
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:08,390
Speaker 1: and steadily working her way up. At this point, Dawn

777
00:37:08,430 --> 00:37:11,649
Speaker 1: is the face of SeaWorld, appearing in promotional photos next

778
00:37:11,690 --> 00:37:15,110
Speaker 1: to many of their performing killer whales, including a mural

779
00:37:15,230 --> 00:37:17,070
Speaker 1: at the Orlando International Airport.

780
00:37:17,370 --> 00:37:17,569
Speaker 2: Wow.

781
00:37:17,830 --> 00:37:20,169
Speaker 1: So here's a photo of Dawn Brancho with a killer whale,

782
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: but that's her. Yeah. So that day, Dawn is slated

783
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,500
Speaker 1: to do a Dine with Shamu show for a lunchtime crowd.

784
00:37:27,739 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: This is more of an intimate show done in an

785
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,020
Speaker 1: open-air restaurant surrounding a pool in which a killer whale

786
00:37:33,060 --> 00:37:36,049
Speaker 1: performs tricks with a trainer. So you pay more to

787
00:37:36,070 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: get in there. You get some, like, crushed— Fish sandwich. Yeah, probably. Probably. Today,

788
00:37:41,660 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: Dawn is performing with Tilikum, who is at this point

789
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,739
Speaker 1: one of SeaWorld's oldest whales and by far the largest.

790
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: He is 12,000 pounds. And I looked it up. A

791
00:37:51,620 --> 00:37:56,069
Speaker 1: cow is 1,200 to 1,400 pounds. And an elephant can

792
00:37:56,090 --> 00:38:00,250
Speaker 1: be up to 15,000 pounds. So he's 12,000 pounds. So

793
00:38:00,290 --> 00:38:03,210
Speaker 1: like an elephant, like a good-sized elephant. Yeah, like a

794
00:38:03,250 --> 00:38:08,779
Speaker 1: kind of skinny elephant. Yeah. The next largest whale is

795
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,820
Speaker 1: half that size. So he is the fucking big guy.

796
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,380
Speaker 1: But Tilikum seems distracted that day. In a nearby pool,

797
00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: diners can see that a group of other whales are

798
00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: kind of agitated. Tilikum keeps vocalizing loudly and those other

799
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,540
Speaker 1: whales are calling back to him. The whales' previous show

800
00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:28,939
Speaker 1: that morning hadn't gone so well, meaning they weren't doing

801
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: their behaviors or tricks. They don't like to call them tricks. Instead,

802
00:38:32,780 --> 00:38:34,860
Speaker 1: the whales had all seemed more interested in roughhousing with

803
00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: each other than performing their tricks. And that might be

804
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: why Don kind of pushed him a little more is

805
00:38:39,340 --> 00:38:42,350
Speaker 1: because More was expected from her for this intimate show.

806
00:38:42,370 --> 00:38:49,580
Speaker 1: You know, she's still working for a corporation, a billion-dollar corporation, right? Yeah. Now,

807
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: at dine with Shamu, Tilikum misses some of Dawn's cues,

808
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,660
Speaker 1: and that causes her to give what's called a neutral response,

809
00:38:56,940 --> 00:38:59,430
Speaker 1: meaning he doesn't get rewarded because he didn't do the

810
00:38:59,610 --> 00:39:02,630
Speaker 1: tricks correctly. Yeah. And it seems like he's getting agitated

811
00:39:02,690 --> 00:39:05,529
Speaker 1: about this. And also, another thing is their hearing is

812
00:39:05,570 --> 00:39:08,150
Speaker 1: so good that— that they can tell when their trainer

813
00:39:08,270 --> 00:39:10,589
Speaker 1: is at the bottom of the fish bucket, when they're

814
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:14,989
Speaker 1: running out of fish. Wow. Yeah. So he knows that

815
00:39:15,410 --> 00:39:17,430
Speaker 1: his treats aren't coming the way they should be. And

816
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: not only his treats, his food. Like that's how he

817
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: gets fed. So I know. I hate it so much.

818
00:39:23,580 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 2: I know. And it's like all of these examples you

819
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,169
Speaker 2: keep giving, like the hearing or the communication or those things.

820
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 2: It's like, you have trapped a wild animal that's so

821
00:39:33,410 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: intelligent and so sensitive totally and just like too bad

822
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: totally do a flip.

823
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,859
Speaker 1: Totally in the name of education and entertainment.

824
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,060
Speaker 2: To the great cost of human fucking life totally it

825
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:48,819
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense totally wait is SeaWorld still open uh

826
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,700
Speaker 2: huh It's like, oh, wait, there's a lawyer behind you.

827
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,460
Speaker 1: Yes? What do you want? No, this is all allegedly. Okay. Okay,

828
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,980
Speaker 1: so the show's wrapping up, and then Dawn goes over

829
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 1: to a shallow platform, which is where the trainers interact

830
00:40:03,420 --> 00:40:05,780
Speaker 1: one-on-one with the whales after they've done their little show.

831
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,859
Speaker 1: Their little show. And they lay down and kind of have, like, some, like,

832
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:13,140
Speaker 1: calming interaction with them. They're supposed to do this. She

833
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,060
Speaker 1: lays down on, like, a really shallow pool. What do

834
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,010
Speaker 1: they call them now? A Baja deck? Yep. She lays

835
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:20,780
Speaker 1: down on what is now known as a Baja deck.

836
00:40:21,330 --> 00:40:24,830
Speaker 1: and is kind of soothing Tilikum, who's in the water

837
00:40:24,930 --> 00:40:27,930
Speaker 1: with his head up, like, near her. And what happens

838
00:40:27,989 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: next is not completely clear. The other trainers on hand

839
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: are not looking when it happens, and the guests and

840
00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:36,140
Speaker 1: other staffers have gone downstairs to an underwater viewing area

841
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: where they're supposed to get a picture with, quote, Shamu.

842
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,620
Speaker 1: And suddenly they hear a big splash, and they see

843
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,450
Speaker 1: Tilikum do a barrel roll and make the horrifying realization

844
00:40:46,489 --> 00:40:49,549
Speaker 1: that he has Dawn in his mouth. Oh. Okay, so

845
00:40:49,590 --> 00:40:52,450
Speaker 1: there's this big debate on whether he's holding Dawn by

846
00:40:52,489 --> 00:40:56,509
Speaker 1: the ponytail or forearm, meaning he pulled her in. From

847
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: the footage that you see, it looks like he grabs

848
00:40:58,820 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: her by the arm. The ponytail is an argument that's

849
00:41:02,140 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 1: trying to make it her fault in a really fucked

850
00:41:05,460 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: up way. even though she wasn't supposed to have that. Yes,

851
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:11,820
Speaker 1: but that's not true, and they all did. Like, ponytails

852
00:41:11,860 --> 00:41:14,910
Speaker 1: were the norm, so it kind of becomes her fault

853
00:41:15,130 --> 00:41:17,930
Speaker 1: if she has a ponytail. I disagree. Yeah, exactly, in

854
00:41:17,969 --> 00:41:20,910
Speaker 1: their argument. And actually, Dawn had been growing out her

855
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:25,259
Speaker 1: hair to donate to Locks of Love, and they're saying it's, yeah,

856
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,940
Speaker 1: it's really ugly. And also, Dawn followed the rules like,

857
00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:30,660
Speaker 1: To the T. If there was a rule about a ponytail,

858
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:31,819
Speaker 1: she wouldn't have been wearing one.

859
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:32,100
Speaker 2: Right.

860
00:41:32,180 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: You know? Yeah. So Tilikum lets go long enough for

861
00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:36,660
Speaker 1: Dawn to make a break to the surface where she

862
00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:39,299
Speaker 1: gets one more breath of air before he pulls her

863
00:41:39,340 --> 00:41:42,580
Speaker 1: back down and thrashes and rams her. And they, of course,

864
00:41:42,620 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: have the 911 calls in Blackfish. So, yeah, you shouldn't

865
00:41:45,980 --> 00:41:46,959
Speaker 1: watch that.

866
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,219
Speaker 2: Also, down in the viewing area, people can see this.

867
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:50,710
Speaker 1: Uh-huh. Oh, my God.

868
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 2: Children.

869
00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:54,830
Speaker 1: Children. Staff quickly try to usher guests away as an

870
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:57,670
Speaker 1: alarm goes off and other SeaWorld staff race to the pool.

871
00:41:57,910 --> 00:42:00,169
Speaker 1: Some people, they slap the water to try to draw

872
00:42:00,230 --> 00:42:02,950
Speaker 1: Tilikum to the surface. Others slide out a net. He's

873
00:42:02,969 --> 00:42:06,049
Speaker 1: just not responding to any of his cues that would

874
00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:08,859
Speaker 1: help let her go. In the end, it takes about

875
00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:12,819
Speaker 1: 40 minutes to corral Tilikum into a smaller pool where

876
00:42:12,860 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: he finally lets Dawn's body go. EMTs attempt CPR, which

877
00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: is unsuccessful. Tilikum stays at the surface watching this happen.

878
00:42:22,860 --> 00:42:25,710
Speaker 1: Onlookers will describe his demeanor as seeming to hope she

879
00:42:25,750 --> 00:42:28,649
Speaker 1: will wake up. Dawn's cause of death is eventually ruled

880
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:30,770
Speaker 1: to be drowning and blunt force trauma.

881
00:42:31,550 --> 00:42:33,630
Speaker 2: You know, I gotta say, I think a big part

882
00:42:33,650 --> 00:42:37,220
Speaker 2: of this is being able to project onto an animal.

883
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,140
Speaker 1: Totally. Totally.

884
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: Where it's like, how in the world would you be like,

885
00:42:40,420 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: he wants her to wake up?

886
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, perhaps. Yeah.

887
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: It's a possibility, but also, this is a wild animal

888
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,670
Speaker 2: whose entire system is built to feed itself. Right.

889
00:42:50,690 --> 00:42:50,790
Speaker 1: Right.

890
00:42:51,370 --> 00:42:53,290
Speaker 2: And if there's no more fish in the bucket, he's

891
00:42:53,350 --> 00:42:54,129
Speaker 2: got to get food.

892
00:42:54,210 --> 00:42:57,669
Speaker 1: And he's probably, I mean, he's been in solitary confinement

893
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:59,109
Speaker 1: for most of his life. Yes.

894
00:42:59,570 --> 00:43:01,939
Speaker 2: He is not having a good time. No. This isn't

895
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:02,740
Speaker 2: his friend.

896
00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: No.

897
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,180
Speaker 2: All the things that might be on the other side

898
00:43:05,219 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: because that's what would draw you to.

899
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:07,540
Speaker 1: And you want to believe.

900
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: Yes.

901
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: Right. It's sad. It's really sad. This tragedy sets off

902
00:43:12,190 --> 00:43:15,129
Speaker 1: a firestorm around SeaWorld, causing people to stop and think

903
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:18,470
Speaker 1: about if there are any circumstances under which killer whales

904
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:21,810
Speaker 1: and other animals should be kept in captivity, especially when

905
00:43:21,830 --> 00:43:26,630
Speaker 1: it's strictly for entertainment and not for conservation purposes. It

906
00:43:26,670 --> 00:43:28,969
Speaker 1: had never been Dawn's intention to get in the water

907
00:43:28,989 --> 00:43:30,870
Speaker 1: with Tilikum. People don't get in with him. She had

908
00:43:30,910 --> 00:43:33,489
Speaker 1: just laid down. There's a long list of rules working

909
00:43:33,530 --> 00:43:36,610
Speaker 1: with Tilikum. Dawn is aware of these rules, and one

910
00:43:36,630 --> 00:43:38,950
Speaker 1: of her jobs is to give new trainers the Tilly

911
00:43:38,989 --> 00:43:43,009
Speaker 1: talk about working with him. That talk basically boils down to,

912
00:43:43,170 --> 00:43:45,469
Speaker 1: if you get in the water with Tilikum, you will

913
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:48,390
Speaker 1: not survive. And of course, Dawn was well aware of

914
00:43:48,410 --> 00:43:51,270
Speaker 1: the track record of the incidents, including two previous deaths

915
00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:57,610
Speaker 1: involving the whale. So after Dawn's death in February of 2010, OSHA,

916
00:43:57,790 --> 00:43:59,589
Speaker 1: which in case you need to know, because I did,

917
00:43:59,890 --> 00:44:07,270
Speaker 1: the Occupational Health Administration, opened an investigation into SeaWorld, and

918
00:44:07,290 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: trainers are never allowed back in the water with killer whales. Okay,

919
00:44:11,340 --> 00:44:14,489
Speaker 1: that's a great first step. Yes. Osha finds SeaWorld and

920
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:17,750
Speaker 1: demands changes be made to the pools, like emergency floors

921
00:44:17,790 --> 00:44:20,810
Speaker 1: that raise. SeaWorld fought all of this in court, but

922
00:44:20,910 --> 00:44:25,070
Speaker 1: ultimately lost. Tilikum continues to perform, obviously without any trainers

923
00:44:25,110 --> 00:44:28,470
Speaker 1: in the water. Starting about a year after Dawn's death,

924
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: he goes back out and trains for the audiences. No,

925
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,910
Speaker 1: just nothing. No. I mean, they can't let him back out.

926
00:44:38,050 --> 00:44:41,180
Speaker 1: So that's the employee safety side of things, the OSHA stuff.

927
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: But it's really only after the release of Blackfish that

928
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: the animal welfare side of things is discussed. The documentary,

929
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,500
Speaker 1: which wins an Oscar, ignites a firestorm of criticism about

930
00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:53,630
Speaker 1: the practice of keeping these highly social animals in small

931
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:58,130
Speaker 1: tanks and manipulating them into performing. SeaWorld has since announced

932
00:44:58,150 --> 00:45:01,049
Speaker 1: that it will be phasing out its breeding program. So

933
00:45:01,090 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: eventually there will be no more killer whale shows at SeaWorld.

934
00:45:05,350 --> 00:45:07,850
Speaker 1: So they are phasing them out. And it's unclear what

935
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: SeaWorld will evolve into when this happens, whether it will

936
00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: solely be a theme park with some sea animals or

937
00:45:13,940 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: whether it might use those performance spaces to expand its

938
00:45:16,660 --> 00:45:20,500
Speaker 1: dolphin programming. This practice raises all the same ethical concerns

939
00:45:20,540 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: for performing whales, but dolphins can't easily kill people. So

940
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:26,060
Speaker 1: it's not as important.

941
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:27,060
Speaker 2: We don't know that, though.

942
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: No, we don't. Because seriously, they're very smart. So long

943
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,950
Speaker 1: and thanks for all the fish. So here is a

944
00:45:32,989 --> 00:45:36,290
Speaker 1: quote from Kay, our murderino. Quote, while many pushed for

945
00:45:36,330 --> 00:45:39,509
Speaker 1: Tilly to be freed in his final years, biologists and

946
00:45:39,550 --> 00:45:42,370
Speaker 1: ecologists agreed that Tilly would be incapable of fending for

947
00:45:42,430 --> 00:45:45,149
Speaker 1: himself in the wild and would likely be susceptible to

948
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:48,529
Speaker 1: ailment from treatable diseases. It was feared that he would

949
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:51,350
Speaker 1: end up like Keiko, the orca from Free Willy, who

950
00:45:51,390 --> 00:45:54,690
Speaker 1: was released without clearance of researchers and biologists and whom

951
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:57,930
Speaker 1: ended up dying of pneumonia off the coast of Europe.

952
00:45:58,410 --> 00:45:59,859
Speaker 1: So you can't put them back. Right.

953
00:45:59,890 --> 00:46:04,180
Speaker 2: They didn't have the correct upbringing, childhood, wild animal experience.

954
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,299
Speaker 1: None of it. None of it. Tilikum dies in 2017

955
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: at SeaWorld Orlando of an infection at the age of 36.

956
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,820
Speaker 1: He's survived by nine calves he sired and three grandchildren. Wow.

957
00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:20,580
Speaker 1: Dawn's family starts the Dawn Branchow Foundation, which raises money

958
00:46:20,620 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: for organizations that provide services to children and animals. And

959
00:46:24,820 --> 00:46:27,590
Speaker 1: Kay says, quote, Dawn's family is amongst the first to

960
00:46:27,620 --> 00:46:30,390
Speaker 1: say that Dawn passed away doing what she loved and

961
00:46:30,430 --> 00:46:33,270
Speaker 1: that they do not hold Tilikum or SeaWorld accountable for

962
00:46:33,310 --> 00:46:36,050
Speaker 1: her death. Mm-hmm. In fact, every year since her passing,

963
00:46:36,130 --> 00:46:39,190
Speaker 1: Dawn's family hosts a walk at SeaWorld Orlando in her

964
00:46:39,290 --> 00:46:42,060
Speaker 1: name to raise funds for the rescue causes that Dawn

965
00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:46,060
Speaker 1: cared for so deeply. And that is the story of

966
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:48,980
Speaker 1: Tilikum the killer whale. Wow.

967
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,140
Speaker 2: I just didn't know any of that stuff happened anymore. Like,

968
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 2: I really thought after Blackfish, I was like, oh, they're

969
00:46:55,380 --> 00:46:57,860
Speaker 2: going to take care of all that. But it is

970
00:46:57,900 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: a business.

971
00:46:58,460 --> 00:46:58,620
Speaker 1: Yeah.

972
00:46:58,860 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: That's kind of how it goes.

973
00:47:00,060 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: I mean, thank God they can't ride them anymore and

974
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:03,770
Speaker 1: get in the water with them.

975
00:47:04,460 --> 00:47:07,140
Speaker 2: It's a weird comparison, but it makes me think of

976
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: there's a podcast and it talked about there's a guy

977
00:47:10,140 --> 00:47:13,460
Speaker 2: that was like a hypnotist, but he also was a

978
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: scammer and all these other ways. And one of the

979
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:18,590
Speaker 2: things he did, remember permanent makeup that came out and

980
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:21,670
Speaker 2: it was like you could get lip liner tattooed? He

981
00:47:21,730 --> 00:47:24,210
Speaker 2: was the one that came up with that. And he

982
00:47:24,250 --> 00:47:27,110
Speaker 2: was not a doctor. He was not. He didn't study anything.

983
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:31,340
Speaker 2: He went to, I think, South Asia, saw people doing

984
00:47:31,380 --> 00:47:35,310
Speaker 2: it there. with tattoo kits and then was like, oh, well,

985
00:47:35,330 --> 00:47:37,549
Speaker 2: they should do that here on women and then just

986
00:47:37,650 --> 00:47:41,149
Speaker 2: held the weekends himself and taught all these women just

987
00:47:41,170 --> 00:47:42,630
Speaker 2: kind of like, oh, here's how you would do it.

988
00:47:42,650 --> 00:47:45,870
Speaker 2: But like nothing was official. And there's been so much

989
00:47:45,950 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 2: of our life and culture and world in this country

990
00:47:49,739 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: that is truly like some scammer made it up and

991
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: then people believed and trusted.

992
00:47:54,739 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: Totally. Trusted. Totally. Yeah, it's so ugly. It's so heartbreaking.

993
00:47:59,140 --> 00:48:01,540
Speaker 1: I personally will never go to SeaWorld. As a kid,

994
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: I went. not knowing these things. No one knew anything

995
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,410
Speaker 1: back then. Never go again and haven't and... Yeah, that's it. Oh, wait,

996
00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:12,470
Speaker 1: the lawyer's back. So sorry. We have to go to SeaWorld.

997
00:48:13,700 --> 00:48:17,919
Speaker 1: And thank you to Kay, our resident marine biologist murderino. Wow.

998
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,180
Speaker 2: I love the idea that the Gmail is just sitting

999
00:48:20,219 --> 00:48:24,220
Speaker 2: there with also, like, more research waiting to be mined.

1000
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,189
Speaker 1: That's why when we say send us your hometowns about anything,

1001
00:48:27,489 --> 00:48:29,430
Speaker 1: that's what we mean. So if you have a story

1002
00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:33,410
Speaker 1: about fucking killer whales, send it to MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail.

1003
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:36,340
Speaker 1: Was your grandpa one of those original people who... chase

1004
00:48:36,380 --> 00:48:37,060
Speaker 1: down whales.

1005
00:48:37,219 --> 00:48:39,380
Speaker 2: We'll bust him here on our podcast. Tell us all

1006
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:41,899
Speaker 2: about him. We want to hear it. Also, just because

1007
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,530
Speaker 2: we don't read your email in 2016 when you send

1008
00:48:44,570 --> 00:48:46,850
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean 10 years later it won't get read.

1009
00:48:46,910 --> 00:48:49,090
Speaker 1: Oh, no. We have your email. Hers was from 2020.

1010
00:48:49,090 --> 00:48:49,410
Speaker 2: 2020.

1011
00:48:49,410 --> 00:48:50,049
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1012
00:48:50,410 --> 00:48:50,830
Speaker 2: Amazing.

1013
00:48:50,850 --> 00:48:50,989
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1014
00:48:51,450 --> 00:48:54,270
Speaker 2: Just a six-year hold. We just had to review some facts.

1015
00:48:54,350 --> 00:48:56,210
Speaker 1: Right. Wow.

1016
00:48:56,350 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 2: Great job.

1017
00:48:57,430 --> 00:48:58,250
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1018
00:48:58,610 --> 00:49:01,250
Speaker 2: That was a great story, and it's something really worth

1019
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,740
Speaker 2: Kind of hearing about.

1020
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:03,260
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1021
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 2: Because I feel like maybe people are like me where

1022
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:06,430
Speaker 2: it's like, I think I know.

1023
00:49:06,450 --> 00:49:06,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1024
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:07,830
Speaker 2: And then I don't really know.

1025
00:49:07,890 --> 00:49:09,910
Speaker 1: Yeah. I could have done like so much more research

1026
00:49:09,969 --> 00:49:11,910
Speaker 1: on this. I'm going to finish listening to that book

1027
00:49:11,950 --> 00:49:13,430
Speaker 1: and maybe fall asleep to it at night, which is

1028
00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:15,210
Speaker 1: really disturbing. Yeah. Be careful with that.

1029
00:49:15,450 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: Can I recommend a parallel and adjacent thing?

1030
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:19,980
Speaker 1: Bluey? You think I should watch Bluey?

1031
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: Have you ever just spent some time with Miss Rachel?

1032
00:49:24,460 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: Oh, I love her.

1033
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,950
Speaker 2: There's a movie called Rust and Bone, and Marion Cotillard

1034
00:49:30,180 --> 00:49:34,250
Speaker 2: plays a killer whale trainer. who has her legs bitten

1035
00:49:34,350 --> 00:49:37,330
Speaker 2: off by the whale, and then it's her life after. Oh.

1036
00:49:38,210 --> 00:49:40,129
Speaker 2: And Matthew... Lillard.

1037
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:42,450
Speaker 1: I love Matthew Lillard.

1038
00:49:42,690 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: Shaggy from Scooby-Doo comes, and then the beautiful actor, Matthias Schonartz, comes,

1039
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: and he's just some dude that has to come and

1040
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: help her. He's almost like a care worker in home

1041
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:56,380
Speaker 2: that has to carry her around and stuff.

1042
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,140
Speaker 1: And he's so hot.

1043
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,180
Speaker 2: He's so hot, and then eventually he's like, And it

1044
00:50:01,219 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 2: takes forever, of course, for her to go outside and

1045
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,259
Speaker 2: it's this whole kind of rehabilitation. Okay. And then he's like, well,

1046
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,509
Speaker 2: I'll sleep with you if you want me to, if

1047
00:50:08,530 --> 00:50:10,730
Speaker 2: you want to like get it going again and whatever.

1048
00:50:10,910 --> 00:50:18,790
Speaker 2: And it is like the most heart-wrenching, realistic, unromantic, hottest,

1049
00:50:19,370 --> 00:50:21,660
Speaker 2: like I can't explain it, but I would watch it

1050
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:23,069
Speaker 2: if I were you, especially after this.

1051
00:50:23,090 --> 00:50:23,819
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will.

1052
00:50:24,219 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: Amazing.

1053
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: Well, thank you. And thank you guys for listening to

1054
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,020
Speaker 1: this story and tuning in.

1055
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,219
Speaker 2: And being with us.

1056
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: We appreciate you. Stay strong.

1057
00:50:33,219 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: Rise up.

1058
00:50:34,460 --> 00:50:39,790
Speaker 1: Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you

1059
00:50:39,810 --> 00:50:40,290
Speaker 1: want a cookie?

1060
00:50:48,180 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production.

1061
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,700
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1062
00:50:52,780 --> 00:50:53,460
Speaker 1: is Tessa Hughes.

1063
00:50:53,660 --> 00:50:55,550
Speaker 3: Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

1064
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,790
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Liana Squilacci.

1065
00:50:58,030 --> 00:51:00,630
Speaker 3: Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin.

1066
00:51:00,830 --> 00:51:03,690
Speaker 1: Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com.

1067
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:06,230
Speaker 3: And follow the show on Instagram at myfavoritemurder.

1068
00:51:06,290 --> 00:51:09,670
Speaker 1: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1069
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:11,070
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.

1070
00:51:11,130 --> 00:51:13,510
Speaker 2: And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1071
00:51:13,710 --> 00:51:15,770
Speaker 1: And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and

1072
00:51:15,810 --> 00:51:18,299
Speaker 1: the remind me buttons That's the best way you can

1073
00:51:18,340 --> 00:51:19,910
Speaker 1: support our show. Goodbye.