1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: This is Robert Lamb. My co host Joe is on 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: leave this week, so I have an interview for you. 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: I recently talked with Ryan Jones of the University of Oregon. 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: His new book is read Leviathan, The Secret History of 7 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: Soviet Whaling. So this is a fascinating book, and I 8 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: think we had a fascinating chat about the history, specifically 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: the twentieth century history of whaling and how that factors 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: into Russian history, the history of the Soviet Union, but 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: also global history as well. A word of caution that 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: this this interview will of course discuss whaling, which is 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: going to have some graphic details in it, so be 14 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: advised on that count. But on the other hand, I 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: want to stress that this will not just be a 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: parade of of horrors. Uh. There's a lot of interesting 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: historical and cultural information in here as well. So without 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: further ado, let's go straight to the interview. Hi, Ryan, 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Rob Thanks for having me. So 20 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: your book concerns whaling, which humans have been engaging in 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: for thousands of years and yet twentieth century whaling stands 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: out in rather appalling ways. Can you set the scene 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: for us regarding twentieth century whaling and what truly sets 24 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: it apart from the sort of nineteenth century whaling that 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: many of us are probably familiar with from the likes 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: of Moby Dick. Yeah, that's right, Rob. I mean, nineteenth 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: century whaling, which was dominated by the Americans, was a 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: really low tech enterprise that still managed to manage to 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: sweep nearly the entire Earth specific Indian Atlantic Ocean, and 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: i had a pretty massive impact on certain whale species 31 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: like sperm way else others it left entirely untouched, especially 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: the fast whales, the big whales that many people be 33 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: familiar with, humpback whales, blue whales, fin whales, etcetera. And 34 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: major parts of the ocean that were just off limits 35 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: to people working with sale technology, like the Antarctic, which 36 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: is is the place where the most whales used to 37 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: live at least. And so twenty centure whalen was was 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: far I think, far less talked about, far less romanticized about. 39 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: There is no Herman Melville for the twentieth century industrial era, 40 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: and yet it was by an order of magnitude more 41 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: devastating for most whale species. Do you want Do you 42 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: want me to talk a little bit about the technology. 43 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm mindful of not just going on and on with 44 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: my answers your readers. No, No, I think we'd we'd 45 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: all have to to have a little technological background at 46 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: My next question, in fact, was going to be about 47 00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: the Stern slipway and what it was and why it 48 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 1: was so essential to modern whaling. Yeah, I mean the technology. 49 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: There was really a major change in the technological implementations 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: of whaling at the end of the nineteenth century, mostly 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: brought about by Norwegians who had been whaling in their 52 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: near shore waters, but perfected a few things like the 53 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: exploding harpoon gun, which actually, you know, sentti grenade into 54 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: a whale exploded inside its body, which was far more 55 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: lethal and far less lethal for humans because they could 56 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: kill the whale, often with one or two shots, rather 57 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: than having to tire it out over a long period 58 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: of time being attached to this gigantic, dangerous creatures they 59 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: had in sail whaling. So that was one of the 60 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: major changes that took place. The other was the Stern slipway. 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: Rabich you just mentioned, and uh, this was a classical 62 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: industrial piece of technology which allowed whale to be winched 63 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: on board the whale ship, which really fundamentally changed the 64 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: whole industry. It meant that you didn't have to process 65 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: whales either on this in the ocean on the side 66 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: of the ship, as you know, as people did in 67 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: in Moby Dick for example, or that you even had 68 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: to go ashore and process whales at shore factories. What 69 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: this meant was that you could stay out to see 70 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 1: with your your mother ship, your factory um, your factory ship, 71 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: and just process whales day after day after day. They'd 72 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: be brought to you by a fleet of catcher boats 73 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: taken to the mother ship, winched up at the stern slipway, 74 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: and then a whole team, whole army of industrial workers 75 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: would process that whale carcass into the products that people 76 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century wanted, which increasingly was was margarine um, 77 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, butter substitute. That was another technological in a 78 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: Asian the process of hydrogenation, which allowed people a scientist 79 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: to inject hydrogen. I better not maybe I would go 80 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: so firmly into the details of hydrogenation, but it allowed 81 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: them to uh to process whale meat in such a 82 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: way that it was basically stripped of any um, fishy flavor. 83 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: People didn't even know they're eating margarine um that come 84 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: from whales oftentimes, and this was the major driver behind 85 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: the twentieth century global industrial whaling. You also mentioned that 86 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: this allowed for the processing of the carcass to take 87 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: place out of sight. Right, this was made a little 88 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: more hidden. Yeah, that's right. I mean, certainly not for 89 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: those involved in it. For those involved in it, um, 90 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: you know, you could you would see just hundreds on 91 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: some days, literally hundreds of of whales being processed. But 92 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: it was it allowed the industry really to take place well, 93 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: first of all, in the Antarctic. The Antarctic started being 94 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: hunted in the nineteen tens based on this new technology UM, 95 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: and then really peaked in the twenties and thirties, so 96 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: far away from where any humans lived that you would, 97 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, you'd get this product, this margarine, with really 98 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: no sense of what kind of labor um, what kind 99 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: of danger, what kind of slaughter had produced it. You know, 100 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: were previously, I mean, whaling had always taken place pretty 101 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: far from shore, but it had always been you know, 102 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: pretty closely connected with shore industry as well, since you know, 103 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: often processed the whales. It's on shore, et cetera. Often 104 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: hunted whales in many cases that were not that far 105 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: away from human population. So yeah, it allowed it really 106 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: changed the industry in a lot of ways, making it 107 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: um you know, some ways far more mysterious for most people. 108 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: And you mentioned to the twentieth century whaling also it 109 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: impacted more species of way old stra as compared to 110 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. Yeah, you know, whales, A lot of 111 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: whales are really hard to catch without industrial technology. They're 112 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: they're fast, they can standard water for a long period 113 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: of time. And as with fishing, the twenties century just 114 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: saw a series of innovations that allowed people to overcome uh, 115 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: you know, the whales ability to escape. First of all, 116 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: diesel engines of course, which are so much faster, allowed 117 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: them to to really run down any species they wanted to. Uh. 118 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: Then sonar after the Second World War came into greater 119 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: use airplanes which allowed them to spot you. Often on 120 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: this mother ship would have a helicopter or an airplane, 121 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: but usually a helicopter pad where helicopters would take off 122 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: and search the area for whales, telp people where the 123 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: large agglomerations were. Then they could chase them down with 124 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: these really fast ships and then process them on board. 125 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean for whales, you can only imagine this was 126 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: a obviously devastating suite of technologies. They never faced predators 127 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: like this um on this scale or with this lethality. 128 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: They were really totally unprepared, especially the big ones like 129 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: blue whales and fin whales, you know, the two largest 130 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: species on Earth, which really sustained the whaling industry from 131 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen tiens through the sixties. Yeah, in terms of 132 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: what it was like for the whales, you described this 133 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: as the breaking of their their quote, cultures and families. 134 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: Can you uh describe that a little bit for us? Yeah, 135 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: thanks for rop. This is one of things I wanted 136 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: to do with the book. Was it was to mean 137 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: the statistics can be numbing and it feels like an 138 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: industrial slaughter house, which of course it was in a 139 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: lot of ways. But you know, the whalers were catching 140 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: wild animals, wild animals that had as you know, scientists 141 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: are telling us these days they've done incredible research into 142 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: whale cultures and whale emotions, whale behaviors that you know, 143 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: whales are complex creatures. They passed down a lot of 144 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: the information necessary for their lives through cultural transmission. That is, 145 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: they learn it from um, the other whales around them. 146 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: It's not embedded genetically certain behaviors, migration routes, feeding areas, 147 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: feeding strategies, etcetera. And so it allows us to understand 148 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: what was happening with this unprecedented onslaught, which was not 149 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: just the kind of devastation of a population, but but 150 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 1: also the loss of of knowledge amongst whale communities. That 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: we have pretty clear evidence that whales, even as they've 152 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: rebounded since the end of industrial whaling in the eighties, 153 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: have failed to recolonize certain areas, places that they used 154 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: to go to to give birth, to maid, to feed, etcetera, 155 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: in part because there was just such a a loss 156 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: of cultural knowledge that was part of this slaughter. You know, 157 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: you killed so many nursing mothers, for example, right, who 158 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: have then failed to pass on to their offspring certain 159 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: important facets of what it meant to be a humpback whale. Uh. 160 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: And so that that's kind of knowledge reverberate that loss 161 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: reverberates today. Uh. Sperm whale mothers, for examples, seem to 162 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: be far less adapted keeping their calves alive than they 163 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: were before whaling. It surmised that this is one of 164 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: those knowledge losses that that happened as a result of 165 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: industrial whaling. So we still see the impacts even as 166 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: whale numbers are rebounding here in the twenty one century. Now, 167 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: Redd Levithan is the Secret History of Soviet whaling, So 168 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm getting a little bit into the history of Soviet 169 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: whaling and all. So just the Russian history with whaling. 170 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated by a particular culture relationship with the sea, 171 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: and you discussed this in the book concerning Russia. So 172 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: how did Russia historically view the ocean and its resources 173 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: and how did this impact their involvement in whaling. Yeah, 174 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, Russia, but it's such an interesting place to 175 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: think about humans relationship to the ocean. You know, you 176 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: think about Russia, it's this huge land empire, which it is, 177 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: of course, but it also has one of the longest 178 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: coastlines in the world. And Russians have been interacting with whales, 179 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, for a couple of thousand years of all 180 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: sorts of different species, and the Pacific in the Arctic, 181 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: and the Baltic in the Ocean, you name it. The 182 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: Russians had had relationships with whales there, and I mean, 183 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,719 Speaker 1: I think the important thing for Russians was that they 184 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: basically missed this period of sail whaling. Well they didn't 185 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: miss it exactly. They saw themselves as victims in this period. Americans, 186 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: British dominated that they had the capital to sustain these 187 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: long distance whaling expeditions. The Russians didn't. They were, you know, 188 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: quite poor compared to Western European and America nations. And 189 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: so what they saw is year after year Americans coming 190 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: to Siberian shores, for example, um and doing whatever they wanted, 191 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: even though this was part of what Russia thought of 192 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: as their own territory. Americans would come in and kill 193 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: as many whales as they wanted, basically laugh at in 194 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: any kind of Russian attempts to stop them. They trade 195 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: with indigenous people, uh Siberians, who in many cases depended 196 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: on whales for their own sustenance. Alaskans as well. You know, 197 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: Russia controlled part of Alaska in the nineteenth century, and 198 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: you know, from the Russian perspective is just outrageous. They 199 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: these capitalist whalers, Yankee whalers as they call them, We're 200 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: destroying indigenous livelihoods. Russians really actually cared about this. They 201 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: were destroying whales that Russians would have liked to have 202 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: made some money off of. And so that really helped 203 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: shape Russia's major entry into the industry. They came with 204 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: a you could say a lot of historical baggage into it. 205 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: And when when Russia finally established its own whaling industry 206 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, and you Stalin, Joseph Stalin, uh, 207 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: they thought of it not just as a way to 208 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: industrialize the country that was part of it, but as 209 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: a way to kind of rectify this historical wrong that 210 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: their whaling industry was Russia. Finally Russia getting its share 211 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: and finally able to sort of defend its own oceans 212 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: against Americans, British and increasing the Norwegians as well. Now 213 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: you get into the the mystry of whales as well. 214 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: I was taken by what you shared about the mystery 215 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: of baleen whales, including a tenth century Russian poem that 216 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: concluded that the the these whales fed on quote heavenly fragrances. 217 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: What are we to make of that? Yeah, whales are 218 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: pretty mysterious creatures. They were for humans, well they still 219 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: are in a lot of ways. You know, they spend 220 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: of their life underwater. Humans really only got to know 221 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: them when they were washed up on shore or once 222 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: they've been harpooned, and so that, you know, whales lent 223 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: themselves to a lot of mystery. Um. And one of 224 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: the interesting things that I found research in this book is, 225 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: you know, the really important work that the Soviet Union did, 226 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: especially as scientists, and kind of unraveling some of these mysteries. 227 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: You know, you you read this poem, this was a 228 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: great indication of the really almost total ignorance of whales 229 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: they humans had in the tenth century, but really up 230 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: until the twentieth century in a lot of ways. And 231 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, the Soviets they killed more whales than any 232 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: country did after after the Second World War. They also 233 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: studied whales in greater depth than any other country did 234 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: their way. Their scientists were on the whale ships, you know, 235 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: digging through whale carcases, watching whales as they were being hunted. Uh, 236 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: using captive dolphins for study, you know, the Soviet Union 237 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: as much as any country, really advanced our knowledge of 238 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: what whales. Where no one was talking about them feeding 239 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: on Heavenly miss by the late twentieth century, the Soviets 240 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: were talking about them nearly going extinct, and they were 241 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: some of the first to understand how deep the crisis 242 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: was as well. Yeah. So, and this you're getting into 243 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: into what you refer to in the book, is that 244 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: the challenging contradictions that you encountered sometimes you're encountering in 245 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: interviews with Russian whalers and scientists. Can you can you 246 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: speak to this a little bit? Yeah, you know, I 247 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: came and I wrote. I wrote this book because I 248 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: it was horrified and shocked by a lot of things. 249 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: I've just been talking about, the numbers of whales killed, 250 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: the you know, the pain that wales felt. But you know, 251 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: to to try to understand this and the role specifically 252 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: that the Russian Soviet Union played, of course, I went 253 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: out and I talked to people who had been on 254 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: board these whales ships. I went to Ukraine and I 255 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: went to I went to Moscow and Colen and Grad 256 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: and other places and talked to people who had been 257 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: part of this and it was. It was hard not 258 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: to like them. Frankly, you know, they're there are people 259 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: who not only didn't think at the time that what 260 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: they were doing was wrong, many of them, um, some 261 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: of them did. I should make that clear that you know, 262 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: some people were really disturbed by the whaling that they 263 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: were doing. Many were not. And you know, frankly, most 264 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: people around the world didn't really care that whales were 265 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: being killed for most of the time period. But you know, 266 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: not not only that, but also that they were you know, 267 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: they were also really deeply interested in whales, you know, 268 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: like myself, really fascinated by these creatures. And uh, you 269 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: know when I talked to them, I talked to whale scientists, 270 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, they they they wanted to talk. They they 271 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: were so um, you know, they wanted to relive their 272 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: experiences with whales. They expressed sympathy for these creatures, fascination 273 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: for them. You know, I met some of really the 274 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: greatest whale scientists, probably the twentieth century, people who are 275 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: still really who still really care about whales, who who 276 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: had tried to blow the whistle uh in the Soviet 277 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: Union about some of the the illegal whaling that was 278 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: taking place, and some of them turned out to be Um, 279 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: you know, as you said, Chaney contradictions. Uh, you know, 280 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: one of one of the whale scientists that I really 281 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: relied on for a lot of the information for these 282 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: books living in Odessa in Ukraine now and um, you know, 283 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: it's been emailing me telling me he can't wait for 284 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: Russia to come free Ukraine from the Nazis. You know, 285 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: he's a deep Russian patriot who really regrets the demise 286 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union as well. You know, people who're 287 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: not not easy to to pigeonhole them into easy dichotomies 288 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: that we often fall into. And looking at Russia, so 289 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: we touched a little bit already on the like the 290 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: history of of Russian whaling and their relationship with the 291 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: resources of the sea prior to the twentieth century. But 292 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: then what other reasons are pushing the Soviet Union then 293 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: to pursue industrial whaling so strongly during a time when 294 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: other countries are dropping out of the practice. Yeah, that 295 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: was the crazy thing about this, and that came really 296 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: came through heartbreaking details. I was reading scientists reports. You know, 297 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union really expanded their whaling presence in the 298 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: late nineteen fifties and early nineteen sixties, just at a time, 299 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: as you see, rob, when the Norwegians were starting to 300 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: drop out, the British were starting to drop out, the 301 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: Dutch were starting to drop out. The US wasn't waling anymore. 302 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: Everyone saw the writing on the wall. Look the large 303 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: profitable whales, We've wiped it out. You know, they're gone. 304 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: It's it's not gonna pay. And you know, the Soviet Union, 305 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: they they had a real belief in the power of science. 306 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: You know, this was a society that was had thrown 307 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: off God, thrown off religion. It was going to rely 308 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: on the expertise of people who weren't subject to those 309 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: kinds of uh, those kinds of superstitions. You know. They 310 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: were going to integrate all kinds of economic planning with 311 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: x with experts. So they had a real belief that 312 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: they were actually going to be really more responsible environmentally 313 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: than other countries. So it was it was just bizarre 314 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: to read you that they were the Soviet Union under 315 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: Nikita Khrushchev, I was thinking about building. They thought about 316 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: building nine new factories floating factories in the in the 317 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, UM which was you know, was going to 318 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,239 Speaker 1: make them the biggest whaling country on Earth. And they 319 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: asked their scientists and it was just a good idea. 320 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: Every scientist sit now, they said, like the oceans are 321 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: in crisis, and they really were in the in the 322 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. It's easy to forget just how we had 323 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: exploited um whale and fish stocks at that time really recklessly. 324 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: And Soviet scientists understood this perfectly. They were they were 325 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: seeing it happened on board to a to a man, 326 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: and they were all men at that time. They they 327 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: advised the Soviet economic planners like, don't do this, it's crazy. 328 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: And what did they do? They said, Okay, instead of nine, 329 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: will build seven. They built seven new factory fleets UM, 330 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: which you know, dwarf everyone except the Japanese at a time, 331 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: as I said, when people were getting out of this 332 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: industry justified logic, uh, and it led to predictable disaster. 333 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: You know. The Soviets, having built these these huge fleets, UH, 334 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: found that there weren't whales to catch, so they started 335 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: catching the last of the whales that were prohibited, you know, 336 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: and they really you know, the special contribution that the 337 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: Soviets made was was catching those last few whales of 338 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: the species that really didn't make any economic sense to 339 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: catch the Soviets. For the Soviets, though, uh, they had 340 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: the capacity, they did it. They wiped out almost the 341 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: last of the humpback whales in the southern hemisphere, the 342 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: last of the southern right whales. So um, you know, 343 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: it's it's it's hard to read that stuff, and it 344 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: it really feels like, um, a kind of a tragic 345 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: failure of the Soviet belief that's that science would really 346 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: make them able to to operate more effectively in the world. 347 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: You know, they could have worked now the scientists told 348 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: them the right thing, and they ended up ignoring the advice, 349 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: really to the great tragedy of the whales around the world. 350 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: But they did end up sending scientists out on these 351 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: ships as well. Yeah. Oh, the Soviet Union had the 352 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: largest net of whales scientists really in the world, and said, 353 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, they understood probably better than any country in 354 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: the world, what you know, exactly how deep the crisis 355 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: was with the world's whales. And that's that's the that's 356 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: the difficult contradiction here. So they were they were international 357 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,479 Speaker 1: quotas at the time though, right, Um, how did how 358 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: did this playing into Soviet whaling activity at the time. Yeah, right, So, 359 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: you know, the Soviet Union was one of the original 360 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: signatories to the International Whaling UH Convention that established the 361 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: National Whaling Commission in six and they had agreed to 362 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: abide by quotas quota which at first were kind of 363 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: laughably generous. Um, they wanted to make sure that whalers 364 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: were still profitable, but became increasingly restrictive over the years, 365 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: and especially in the nineteen sixties that they had some 366 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: real teeth in them, and the Soviet Union pretended to 367 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: abide by those quotas. They would come back and every 368 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: year whalen nations would have to report how many whales 369 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: they'd killed that they at the medium of the IBC, 370 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: and so the Union would do this, they'd make their 371 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: reports and they started falsifying them in the nineteen fifties. 372 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: At first overstayed in the number of whales that they'd killed, 373 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: in part because they wanted to uh to look like 374 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: they were bigger whalers than they were, in part because 375 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: they you know, they wanted to establish a precedent for 376 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: having killed this MANI. But then after they built these 377 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: big fleets. They realized, you know, we we can't abide 378 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: by any of the stuff. Um, we're to make any 379 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: money from this at all, we're gonna have to cheat wildly, 380 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: and they did. Uh. And so throughout the late fifties 381 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: and sixties. Uh, they'd come back from the Antarctic and 382 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: say we killed three huntback whales and they'd killed twelve. 383 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: You know that kind of just devastating numbers, which flemmixed 384 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: people around the world. You know, whale scientists in Australia, 385 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: New Zealand who are monitoring local populations that migrated down 386 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: to the Antarctic starting in fifty nine, they they saw 387 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: that suddenly there were no whales coming back and they 388 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: couldn't understand why. They well, maybe there's some cheating going on. Uh, 389 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: but we'd have to you know, there'd have to be 390 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of missing whales to explain what's happening. 391 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: No one's cheating like that. But actually the Soviets were. 392 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: It was an unbelievable crime. Really was was a tragedy. 393 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: Of course, no for whales, but um, you know for 394 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: those who were studying and cared about them. One that 395 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: wasn't unraveled until the nineteen nineties, you know, about thirty 396 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: forty years later. It was thanks to those same Soviet 397 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: scientists who who were really upset by this, and they 398 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: kept their own figures. They kept the real numbers, in 399 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 1: part because they hated to see their science messed up 400 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: by the fake numbers, and in part because they really 401 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: cared about the future of whale stocks. And thanks to them, 402 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: we actually know, uh, the extent of what was going on. Now, 403 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: could you take us to a pivotal point in the 404 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: the international reaction to Soviet whaling, the one that you 405 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: touch on several different times in the book, and that's 406 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: the green Peace protest in n Yeah. You know, green 407 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: Peace people are quitty familiar with the with the organizations 408 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: still around, of course, an important environmentalist organization, but they 409 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: really cut their start as an anti whaling group. They 410 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: tried some anti nuclear actions that were only mildly successful 411 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: in the early seventies, but they hit on this, this 412 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: strategy of going out to the open ocean and locating 413 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: whaling fleets and coming between them and their prey, trying 414 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: to stop them from killing whales, and of most importantly 415 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: photographing this all video recording it and letting the world know, 416 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: letting the world see just how brutal industrial whaling was, 417 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: just how how awful it was to see these whales 418 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: being killed. And so what's something Greenpeace called mind bomb 419 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: um crafting an image that would be so powerful that 420 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: it would immediately sway global opinion. And they were pretty 421 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: successful with this. Uh, this was kind of groundbreaking moment 422 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: in the history of global environmentalism. And it was the 423 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: Soviets that they decided to target. It was one Soviet 424 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: ship out of the Russian Siberian port of Lativo stock 425 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: that they located in June, and um was a ship 426 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: that had just been warned by Soviet authorities and especially 427 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: Soviet scientists not to take under sized sperm whales. UM. 428 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: Soviets were really nervous about bad publicity that was caught 429 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 1: red handed by green Pace in this moment, taking sperm 430 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: whales just off the coast of California that were really small, 431 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: um infants, really young spring whales, maybe not infants, And uh, 432 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: this was, you know, for the Soviets as well, one 433 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: of the turning points, you know. They the negative press 434 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: that they got was was really pretty um, pretty devastating 435 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: for them. They didn't end whaling right away, but one 436 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 1: could point to the Greenpeace confrontations. It's really the beginning 437 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: of the end for Soviet and industrial whaling um as 438 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: a whole. Now, how much of that came through to 439 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: the Russian people at that time or were they more 440 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: or less cut off from many of this in the media. Yeah, 441 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, the Soviet Union did its best to hide 442 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: the confrontation from the Soviet people, but they had access 443 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: to Western media, a Western radio reports, television, Um, they 444 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: could get some of that. And Yeah, one of the 445 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: things that was I found really interesting in the book 446 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: was to trace Russian popular opinion around whaling, and it 447 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: was really changing as well by the nineteen seventies. You know, 448 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: I give green piece of ton of credit for for 449 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: saving the loss of the whales, but they're that's it's 450 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: not the it's not the whole story. And the whole 451 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: story really does connect to some of these same Soviet 452 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: scientists who by the nineteen seventies were publishing a lot 453 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: of their research in you know, for domestic consumption. Soviet 454 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: people love to read about the ocean. Um. They were 455 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: totally intrigued by it. Uh, and this they love. They 456 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: love to read these popular scientific accounts, and what they 457 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: were reading was was really changing. By the seventies, Soviet 458 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: scientists were in some ways kind of similarly to the West, 459 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: kind of rethinking what whales were. And a lot of 460 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: the popular publications at the time we're talking about whales 461 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: as humans best friend. You know, they're they're they're gentle creatures. Uh, 462 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: they're useful. Their dolphins are really loyal to humans, like 463 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: like dogs. Like. This is one of the things that 464 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: Soviet scientists were saying and people were reading about. Uh. 465 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: Some of the Soviet Union's indigenous authors, people from Chakota 466 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: Guy by the name of Your Red Hue in particular, 467 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: was was writing novels that really talked about whales from 468 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: an indigenous perspective as sentient, um intelligent creatures. And so 469 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: Soviet people, uh really gaining this this really different view 470 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: of wales, and it led them to question their own industry, 471 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: even aside from what Greenpeace was doing, and it comes 472 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: to quick quite clearly. They wrote letters to um members 473 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: of the Bolshevik Party, the Communist Party, demanding, for example, 474 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: that the dolphin hunt be ended, which the Soviet Union 475 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: did ended in nineteen sixty six, uh will before the 476 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: United States ended marine mammal hunting in nineteen seventy two, 477 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: and then increasingly letters to the newspapers, you know, saying, hey, 478 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: look are we really adhering to the IWC conventions? Are 479 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: we going to end whaling? What's going on here? Putting 480 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on the Soviet Union to end 481 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: this way and that that's a big part of the 482 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,239 Speaker 1: That has to be part of the explanation for why 483 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union ultimately agreed in to stop industrial whaling. 484 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: It's a it's a combination of Western environmentalists and and 485 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: some pressure from Russian people at home too. And did 486 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: the did the economic aspects of it play into it 487 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: at all? Or was that or was the whaling industry 488 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of into the Soviet Union kind of insulated from 489 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: like market forces. Yeah, they did. It did play a role, um, 490 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, Soviet whale It's unclear if they ever made 491 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: any money off of it. In another the like, I 492 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: don't know, tragedy in some way. Um if if they 493 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: really care about profits, they never would have built those 494 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: huge fleets in the sixties. But the Soviet Union was 495 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: entering into an economic crisis by the seventies, and so 496 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: these industries, like the whaling industry, which were lavishly financed, 497 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: people make great salaries in whaling, they begin to seem 498 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: like more of a problem as the Soviet economy as 499 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: a whole was slowing and then by the early eighties 500 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: really lurching into a crisis. And so it's the economics 501 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: did play a role. Yeah, so it was, you know, 502 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: the Soviets, like the Japanese, by the early eighties were 503 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: catching really small whales in comparison to the earlier catches, 504 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: minky whales mostly and some sperm whales. Uh, minkies are 505 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, twenty thirty ft whale and that's a lot 506 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: less whale product than you got from eighty to h 507 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: foot blue whale back in the nineties fifties. So that 508 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: was a part of and they were trying to economize 509 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: on fuel and definitely played a role in getting rid 510 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: of the Soviet whaling industry. Um, but it hadn't had 511 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: a long history of operating without much attention to profits 512 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: or losses. So yeah, it is, it is part of 513 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: the explanation, but it's definitely not the whole explanation. So 514 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: why are Soviets barely a part of the history of whaling, 515 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: as you discussed in the book, despite playing such a 516 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: you know, obviously significant role in it. Yeah, you know, 517 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: I mean part of it is because Soviets were pretty 518 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: secretive about what they were doing. Uh. Part of it 519 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: is this period of industrial whaling. Um. Yeah, but I 520 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: don't think people really like to think back on it 521 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: that much. It was it was a grizzly history. It 522 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: was a depressing history, there's no question about it. But 523 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: I think, you know, maybe most of all this, you know, 524 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, despite producing this really top notch research, 525 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: despite killing so many whales and their scientists, weren't allowed 526 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: to travel around the world share their research, at least 527 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: not until the nineteen late seventies and early eighties, and 528 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: so a lot of what they were doing just the 529 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: world didn't know about, for better for worse. And you know, 530 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: that's that's part of what I wanted to do with 531 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: this book, was to bring that back into global attention 532 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: and you know, account you know for the destruction that 533 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union reeked on our oceans. And you know 534 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: I should mentioned there. Look, it's not like just like 535 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: they were doing this in some far away corner of 536 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: the yearth One of the things that struck me was, 537 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: you know, when I went to the Ocean as a kid, 538 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: and in the North Pacific on the coast of California 539 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: and Oregon, you know, the lack of whales there. Well, 540 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: this was part of the Soviet Union's legacy. They were 541 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: killing whales just offshore, as were the Japanese you know, 542 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: as had American whaling stations as well. Um, but the 543 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: Soviet Union was impacted my own history here, so I 544 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: thought it was really important to to understand how and 545 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: why it had done this on you know, for the 546 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: for the globe, not just for those interested in Russia, 547 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: but also to give you know, to give the Soviets 548 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: there do especially in the way that they advanced our 549 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: knowledge of whales. Uh, they made really important contributions. We 550 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't understand whales the way we do without the work 551 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: of their scientists, um, who did really incredible stuff, not 552 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: not not just an understanding whale behavior, which was their 553 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 1: main focus, but also in in keeping the records that 554 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: we have today of of exactly how many whales were 555 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: killed in the twentieth century as well. Yeah, I want 556 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: to stress to it to our readers that even though 557 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: the subject matter is is grim and in many in 558 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: many cases like the book is not just one endless 559 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: horror show. You know, there's there's so much fascinating content 560 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: about the people involved, the cultures involved in the UH 561 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: and and in the in the science of whales UM. 562 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: So I want to I want to stress that to everyone. 563 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: And and also you you do specifically mention you know 564 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: that there is there is light in an otherwise dark tale, right, 565 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Rob. Yeah, so you know the book, 566 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: the book does chronicle a lot of whales being killed. Yeah, 567 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: this is fundamentally kind of a I mean I turned 568 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: one chapter of the whale genocide. This is the story 569 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: of a number of species of creatures which it really 570 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: flourished on this planet for a long time. UM carved 571 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,760 Speaker 1: out a really successful niche for themselves, really suddenly facing extermination. 572 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: And part of the book is, you know, it's chronicle 573 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: in that and trying to understand how whales did survive 574 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: through this, if barely. But the other part of it, 575 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: Roberts Calculus, you say, you know it's a UM people 576 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: lived rich lives even as they were, you know, destroying 577 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: these creatures and and actually, you know, the Soviet whaling 578 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: industry allows us to kind of look at you know, 579 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: some of the really really um messed up cynical aspects 580 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: of Soviet life, but also some of the great dreams 581 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: that people had and some of the ways that they 582 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: really found meaning uh in the communist project through their 583 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: own work, through adventure UM and the ocean. You know, 584 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: they've through through real scientific accomplishment. You know, there's I 585 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: used this story as a way to to think about 586 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: what life was like in the Soviet Union, all all 587 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: of it's really horrible and wonderful aspects and like like 588 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: any human society, and I had both and it comes 589 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: up pretty clearly in the way that people made um 590 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, some really really meaningful lives for themselves aboard 591 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: whales ships, getting to see the world, getting to know 592 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: these creatures that they were killing, um in really unsurpassed detail. Uh. 593 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: And also you know the real pain that a lot 594 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: of whalers themselves experienced trying to reconcile all the great 595 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: experiences they were having with the with the fact that 596 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: they were destroying these families of whales. Uh. And they 597 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: couldn't they couldn't get they couldn't overlook that fact. All right. 598 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: The book is read Leviathan, The Secret History of Soviet Whaling. 599 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: It's out now in physical and digital formats. Um, we've 600 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: we've been chatting with Ryan Tucker Jones. Ryan, thank you 601 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Thanks for having me, all right, 602 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: Thanks once more to Ryan Tucker Jones for chatting with 603 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: me about the new book, Read Leviathan, The Secret History 604 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: of Soviet Whaling. You can get it right now in 605 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: physical or digital formats. Uh. Definitely, if you're if you 606 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: were interested in anything that we discussed in this episode, 607 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: definitely pick up a copy of this book. It's a 608 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: wonderful read. In the meantime, if you want to check 609 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, our 610 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: core episodes published every Tuesday and Thursday, and the Stuff 611 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind podcast feed. On Monday's you'll find 612 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: our listener mail episodes. On Wednesday's we tend to put 613 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: out a short form artifact or monster fact episode, and 614 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: on Friday's we set aside most serious concerns and just 615 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: talk about the weird film. Uh. Thanks as always to 616 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson for producing this episode. And if you 617 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: want to Get in touch with us about anything this episode, 618 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: future episodes, past episodes. You can do so by emailing 619 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: us at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. 620 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind's production of I Heart Radio. 621 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: For more podcasts. For my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 622 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts or where every listening to your 623 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: favorite shows. Bigger fourt