WEBVTT - Dethroned Emperor: The Fall of Valerian, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:15.000 Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:17.880 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:21.560 we're back with part two of our series on the 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.079 Fall of Valerium. Rob, can you cut us up? But 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:25.960 of course, if you haven't heard part one yet, you 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.440 should go back and listen to that first. But uh, 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:30.360 if you're assuming you have, Rob, can you do a 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:35.040 brief refresher? Yeah, yeah, I'll refresh everybody on the basics here. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.000 So when are we well, we are during this is 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.480 all taking place during the Crisis of the third century. Uh, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.280 this was a period between two thirty five and two 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.280 eighty four c E. In which the Roman Empire is 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:52.720 facing all sorts of internal problems just about following apart 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.760 lots of of warfare between different would be emperors. Uh, 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.520 there's near there's almost an emperor every year or during 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.959 this period. Meanwhile, in in Persia we have the strong 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:11.360 and united Sasanian Empire, and so in the last episode 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.759 we talked about the background, especially on the Sasanian Empire, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.840 background on how Rome reaches the state, why it's in 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.440 such crisis, and who some of the major players are 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.280 and what some of the short imperial reigns consisted of. 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:31.080 Uh and so the key conflict though that the episode 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.639 revolved around, was on one side the Roman Empire under 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.080 Emperor Valerian and then on the other side of the 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.160 Sasanian Empire under a Shapur the first And so we 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.880 talked about the Battle of Edessa. We talked about this, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:51.360 this enormous military disaster in which not only are Valerians 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:57.520 forces defeated, but Valerian himself, the Emperor of Rome, is 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.600 dethroned and captured by enemy forces. He he is a 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:05.800 prisoner of war under the Sasanians. And so this is 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.400 this is ultimately you know what drew me into into 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.120 this whole topic here, like what are the ramifications of 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.160 such a defeat, Because again, while this does not compare 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.640 to say, the complete taking of a kingdom or the 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:20.799 destruction of its capital, the enslavement of the people, that 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.480 sort of thing, it's still an unthinkable occurrence in many 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.000 respects because the emperor is the very apex of the 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:31.200 imperium and now here he is in the hands of 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.200 the enemy. So for starters, yes, one is no longer 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.919 emperor if one is an enemy hands so instantly, once 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.720 Valerian is gets captured, the title of Roman emperor immediately 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:48.639 passes on to his son Galileinus. Galilenus was already essentially 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.880 co emperor with his father, and in two sixty he 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.000 becomes sole emperor, and ultimately he's going to reign till 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:59.120 two sixty eight eight year reign. Then he has assassinated, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.600 that is, Master of to sixty greatly undermined him, and 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.880 he almost immediately had to deal with other usurpers within 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.680 the Roman ranks. Now on the other side of things, 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:12.639 on the Sasanian side of things, this of course is 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:17.840 a most momentous occasion, and Shahbour the first has it 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:22.040 commemorated in rock relief. I think it more than one 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.239 spot that survives. One of the key ones is this 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:30.280 place called Naxi roust tom. It shows two Roman emperors 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:34.560 subjugated by a figure mounted on horseback that is uh 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.320 supposed to be the first. So the two emperors here 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.640 are supposed to be Valerian, who of course has just 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.520 been captured. Also Phillip the Arab, the soldier Emperor of 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:48.160 Rome who followed the slain Gordian. This is the guy 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.960 who signed a treaty with the Sasanians. And there's another 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.760 rock relief elsewhere that also shows Valerian bowing before the 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.040 Sasanian king. Now, one of the sources that I referred 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.480 to a lot in the previous episode is Taraj Dairy, 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.800 who wrote this wonderful book about the Sasanians. Go back 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.960 and um and listen to that episode for for full 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.320 citation on that source. And he's referring here to Shapu 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.320 the first quote. No other person before could have claimed 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:21.800 that he was able to kill a Roman emperor, make 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:26.200 one a tributary, and capture and imprison a third. Spur 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.719 was very much aware of this feat and did not 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.200 hesitate to mention it in his inscription, and ultimately he 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.400 also ends up commemorating this victory in his biography as well. Um. 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.920 Now you'll remember the idea that he killed a Roman emperor. Uh, 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.080 that is maybe a beefed up claim. Uh. The emperor 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.599 in question uh may have just been killed by his 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.560 own soldiers, which was of course a common fate for 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.160 Roman emperors during this time of great unrest. Now Here 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.359 we get into another really contested aspect of all of this, 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.760 perhaps like the most contested aspect of the whole scenario, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.240 and that is what then exactly happens to Valerian? Uh? 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.359 You know, we we know that he's not emperor anymore, 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.240 he is a prisoner of war. But but then what 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.760 does that mean? What what is going to happen to 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:18.040 a supreme ruler in enemy hands during this time? And? Uh? 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.600 We have various accounts of what happened. What happened we know, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.520 for instance, uh Derry says that the Iranian sources say 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:30.159 that he and some senators and soldiers were deported uh 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:34.320 into a Sasanian territory, But we don't really know for 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.480 sure what happened. But the accounts range from the mundane 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.800 to the horrific, and all told, none of it is 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.560 truly out of the question during this time period, I 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.960 guess one big question we might ask is just like 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.920 what was standard treatment during the day for a captured 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.400 ruler of an enemy group? And in fact, we might 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.920 well look to the Romans for such an example. Oh yeah, sure, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.880 because so the export of a defeated ruler to the 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:06.720 victorious metropol of the rival empire would not at all 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.279 have been an unheard of concept in ancient Rome. As 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.200 soon as we started talking about this subject, a couple 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.000 of examples came immediately to my mind. These are by 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.160 no means the only examples, but these are the first 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:21.640 ones I thought of. One is fictional and the other historical. 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.080 So the fictional example is a scene in William Shakespeare's 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.599 play Tied to Sandronicus, which, now, to be clear, this 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.120 is not like Shakespeare's other Roman plays, like Julius Caesar. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.120 Those are based on real historical events, at least to 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.880 some extent, or events that were believed at Shakespeare's time 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.599 to be real historical events. Tied to Sandronicus is wholly 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.800 a fictional scenario, but individual elements from it and scenes 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.440 in it are based on scenarios that really did happen. 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.760 And the one I'm thinking of is the very beginning 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.560 of the play. And so, in a scene in Act one, 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.080 tit Us, the title character, is a Roman general. He's 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.239 returning to Rome after a long or of conquest against 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.000 the Goths, and with him he brings prisoners that he 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.880 is parading through the streets, including Tamara, the queen of 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.720 the Goths. And then a little bit further down, Lucius says, 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.440 give us the proudest prisoner of the Goths, that we 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.360 may hew his limbs, and on a pile at managed fratrum, 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.560 sacrifice his flesh before this earthly prison of their bones, 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:28.800 that so the shadows be not unappeased, nor we disturbed 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.320 with prodigies on earth. Uh. And then later Tamara herself, 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:38.360 the queen of the Goths, says, stay, Roman brethren, gracious conqueror, victorious, 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.760 Titus rue the tears I shed a mother's tears in 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.760 passion for her son. And if thy sons were ever 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.440 dear to thee, oh, think my son to be is 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.680 dear to me? Sufficeth not that we are brought to 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.560 Rome to beautify thy triumphs and return captive to thee 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.560 and to thy Roman yoke. But must my sons be 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.080 slaughtered in the streets for valiant doings in their country's cause? Oh? 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.760 If to fight for king and commonweal we're piety in thine. 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:10.040 It is in these Andronicus, stain not thy tomb with blood. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.320 Wilt thou draw near the nature of the gods, draw 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.080 near them? Then, in being merciful, sweet mercy is nobility's 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.160 true badge. Thrice noble tyed us spare my firstborn son. 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.640 So the scenario is the this is the queen of 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.000 the defeated enemy nation that Rome has conquered. She has 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.720 brought back with her sons, and they are going to 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:35.080 do a human sacrifice of her captive son back here 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.559 in Rome. And she's pleading with tit us, don't do it, please, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.080 don't do it, but they're going to do it again. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.880 Not not a story or an account directly from the 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.280 time that we're talking about here and not from the Romans. 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.120 This is Shakespeare, but still uh it paints uh it 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.960 both a grim picture of what may have been the standard, 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.800 but also, at least from in Shakespeare's voice, it's asking 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.199 questions about like, is this really the way we should 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.920 handle things with when it comes to captives? Uh? Is 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.439 this really the way to go? Of course, as the 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.360 morality of Roman practices is highly questionable to us today, 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.360 I would say, even so is the implied morality of 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.040 of of the play where I don't know, so Tamara 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.040 eventually becomes the villain, right or I don't know. I 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:21.880 guess it's kind of hard to say. Within a within 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.960 a tragedy, hyper violent tragedy and revenge story like Titus Andronicus. 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:30.280 But she eventually becomes the wife of the emperor Saturdayninists 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.640 and then they end up. It's oh, it's a whole 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.480 big battle there. There's a lot of like slaughtering sons 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.960 and feeding them to people. But but but but to 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:42.720 bring it to real history, I think clearly this scene 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.040 in Shakespeare is based on real historical events. One example 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.440 that came to my mind immediately is the story of 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:55.040 Verse and Jettis, who was originally a nobleman of the 0:09:55.280 --> 0:10:00.480 Arverni tribe of the Galls. Uh So, in the fifty BC, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:05.640 Julius Caesar was engaged in a number of campaigns that 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.880 came to be known as the Gallic Wars. It was 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.720 a war, basically a war of conquest in Gaul, which 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:15.239 Gaul is an area of western Europe that roughly corresponds 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:20.000 to modern day France and uh It's complicated, but basically 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.440 the aim of these wars was to bring the various 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.079 tribes of the region under Roman domination. Now this is 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:29.760 before Caesar was an emperor. At the time he was 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.280 um I believe he was governor of Gaul. But but 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:36.840 he he was he was a military commander, and he 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.520 was practicing a form of divide and rule, showing favor 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.439 on some Galic tribes and nobles in order to play 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.320 them against the other Galic tribes and nobles. And uh, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.240 I think it is it's alleged that earlier in this 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:56.160 effort verse in Jeerics, this one particular Gallic noble had 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.280 been on relatively good terms with Rome and with Caesar. 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:03.600 But sometime later in the campaign verse, Generics did a 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.400 U turn and he ended up mounting an effort to 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.600 unite the Gallic tribes in brotherhood to say, okay, let's 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.000 stop squabbling with each other. We can't let them divide 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.679 and rule us. We got a band together and fight back. Now, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.600 I know that initially under verse in Genderics, the goals 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:23.319 were actually pretty effective at resisting Roman conquest verse and 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.800 Generics apparently employed a sort of harass and deprive strategy, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:32.800 so uh kind of uh having having quick moving troops, uh, 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.400 moving around and harassing the Roman column and then also 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.040 practicing scorched earth tactics to deprive the Romans of food 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.320 and other supplies. So you know, the Romans normally what 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.160 they would do is they would move into an area, 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.480 and then they would confiscate food and other important supplies 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.640 from the locals in order to feed their army. Verse 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.840 and Genderic said, Okay, now, what we're gonna do is 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.400 just like burn and destroy and remove all of the 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.239 food in whatever area the Romans are about to move into, 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.640 so they can't feed themselves. And this actually was a 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.840 very smart tactic. But ultimately the girls were defeated. Caesar 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:12.280 surrounded and besieged Verse and Generics and and his forces 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.720 at a battle called the Battle of Alicia and fifty 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.319 two b c E. And, facing certain defeat, Verse and 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:23.280 Generics made a bid for mercy, a bid for mercy 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:28.760 for his troops by surrendering himself personally to Caesar. And 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.760 this story is told in the work of the second 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.920 and third century Roman historian Cassius Dio I think also 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:40.920 sometimes called Dio Cassius, and Dio Cassius writes as follows, 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.439 now Verse and Generics might have escaped, for he had 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:48.439 not been captured and was unwounded, but he hoped, since 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.080 he had once been on friendly terms with Caesar, that 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.520 he might obtain pardon from him. So he came to 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.960 him without any announcement by Harold, but appeared before him 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.560 suddenly as Caesar was see it on the tribunal, and 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.880 threw some who were present into alarm, for he was 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.840 very tall to begin with, and in his armor he 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:12.040 made an extremely imposing figure. When quiet had been restored, 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.120 he uttered not a word, but fell upon his knees 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:19.800 with hands clasped, in an attitude of supplication. This inspired 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.400 many with pity at remembrance of his former fortune and 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.560 at the distressing state in which he now appeared. But 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.680 Caesar reproached him in this very matter on which he 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.160 most relied for his safety, and by setting over against 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.840 his claim of former friendship, his recent opposition showed his 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.360 offense to have been the more grievous. Therefore, he did 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.120 not pity him even at the time, but immediately confined 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.440 him in bonds, and later, after sending him to his triumph, 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.960 put him to death. And then I think after this 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.200 event Caesar basically slaughtered everybody that the Roman behavior in 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.280 the Gallic Wars was extremely brutal. Now coming back to 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.000 what do Cassius says at the end of that passage 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.679 that he was sent to Rome for for Caesar's triumph 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.520 and then he was eventually put to death. Apparently what 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.800 happened is he he was sent to Rome, where he 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.640 was held in prison for about five or six years 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:18.840 before being ritually executed. After he was displayed to the 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.640 public in Caesar's Four Triumphs in forty six b C. 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.040 The Four Triumphs, it was a kind of victory parade 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.720 and festivals, celebrating the conquest of the various nations who 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.840 had come under Rome's heel Uh to read from Dio 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.480 Cassius in a different section describing the Four Triumphs quote 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.840 after this, he conducted the whole festival in a brilliant manner, 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.560 as was fitting in honor of victories so many and 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:47.000 so decisive. He celebrated triumphs for the Gauls, for Egypt, 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.840 for for Nassis, and for Juba in four sections on 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:55.000 four separate days. Most of it, of course, delighted the spectators. 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.480 But the site of Arsenal of Egypt and Arsenal was 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.400 U was a queen of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:06.160 and that that dynasty was unseated by Julius Caesar around 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.520 forty seven b C. E UM. But to continue the quotes, 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.760 saying of Arsenal, whom he led among the captives, and 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.880 the host of lictors, and the symbols of triumph taken 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.720 from the citizens who had fallen in Africa displeased them exceedingly. 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.240 The lictors, on account of their numbers, appeared to them 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.680 a most offensive multitude, since never before had they beheld 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.680 so many at one time. And the site of Arsenal, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.840 a woman and one considered a queen in chains, a 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.840 spectacle which had never yet been seen at least in Rome, 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.720 aroused very great pity, and with this as an excuse 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.800 they lamented their private misfortunes. She, to be sure, was 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.520 released out of consideration for her brothers. But others, including 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.720 Verse in Generics, were put to death. And I don't 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.080 know what the source on this following detail is, but 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:58.000 it seems like most historians agree that the way verse 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.640 and Genderics was put to death was by garrotting, a 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.160 kind of ritual strangulation. And I believe in a temple um, 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.200 but this seems to be a ritual well known to 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:10.280 the Romans, that like a leader of a subjugated nation 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.560 would sometimes be brought back to Rome as a kind 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.400 of souvenir of the returning conqueror's power and then put 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.840 on public display in some fashion, probably sort of humiliated. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.800 And then after that it seems their fates were varied. 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:27.560 Some were put to death, others were given a more 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.040 merciful fate of some kind, and may be released or 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.880 kept imprisoned, though I believe it's it's interesting that in 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:38.000 that passage dou Cassius says that Arsenal was released. I 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.280 think other historians right that after years of being imprisoned 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.880 in a temple, Arsenal was executed on orders of Mark Antony, 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.000 allegedly at the behest of Cleopatra. But that again, that's 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.640 one of those things that you wonder if that's historically 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.800 true or if that's just somebody who's like mad at 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.040 Antony and Cleopatra trying to make them look bad. Right, right, 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.720 there's certainly plenty of that to go around. By the way, 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:05.320 this episode with verse and generics was depicted in the 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.359 HBO series Rome. I'd kind of forgotten about this, but 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.040 once you went through the description, I had to look 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:12.760 it up. It was like, yes, yes, that was depicted 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.000 at one point in that series. Oh, I don't think 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.600 I've seen that, so what did they What do they 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.600 do to him? And like that they strangle him in 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.280 the temple? Did they put him on parade? Uh? They either? 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.200 I think they might. It's been a long time since 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:25.879 I've seen this, this show, and I'm not in a 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.960 big hurry to watch it again, but it has a 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.880 wonderful cast. I believe they have him depicted strangled, perhaps 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.480 in in a cage in the street or on the 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.439 steps of a temple. But again, my memory on this 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.159 is foggy, so I don't know if this is true, 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.480 but it seems like a common received interpretation that Verse 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.800 and generics was was put to death here because he 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.920 turned on Caesar and humiliated Caesar's forces in battle. That, 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.440 you know, because he had been very successful in stopping 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:02.920 them early on the lad to him being treated especially harshly. 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.760 But in general Roman leaders were very cruel, very brutal, 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.400 very into domination, and had a low tolerance for being 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:19.879 embarrassed than Alright, So that leads us back to Valerian, 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.919 and certainly it doesn't It doesn't look great for him 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.919 at this point based on what we've covered thus far. Uh, 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:31.280 for starters, he certainly died in captivity. There's no version 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.119 of the history here in which he escapes that fate. Um, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.439 I guess it should be noted. As far as I know, 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.960 there's there are no surviving accounts that he escaped that fate, 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.840 And I guess there's no there's no like real reason, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.399 there was no real faction that had an interest in 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:52.760 pushing that fiction. Um, you know, in which that version 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:57.480 of of history serves some purpose or another. But we'll getna, 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:58.960 you know, we'll get more into that. But you might 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.480 remember in our Path stepisode we talked about Lea how 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:03.720 how was the defeat at the Battle of the Deaths 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.320 a framed? How are the particulars of that defeat passed down? 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.240 And you know, a lot of times it's about from 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.320 the Christian perspective, it's about saying Valerian was punished by 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.280 God because he was cruel to Christians back home and 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.399 had a pope put to death. And then from the 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.680 Roman standpoint, it's a it's about pushing the idea that well, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.359 he was weak and the Sasanians were deceptive, uh and 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.879 and therefore sort of excuse the loss to some extent. 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.320 But as we said earlier, there's a there's a lot 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.840 of leeway and how we might actually interpret his death, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.440 and in how the various histories have mentioned the death 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.960 of Valerian in Sasanian hands. Since we're already talking about 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.320 the horrific side of things, let's stick with the horrific 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.800 side of things, and then we'll come back to the 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.600 more mundane possibilities towards the end. It's kind of a 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.160 palate cleanser, I guess so. According to early Christian writer 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:02.520 and Christian apologist Leuctonscious, who lived to fifty three five UM, 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.280 things were pretty grim for Valerian. And we have to mention, though, 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.560 that the thing about like Conscious is he has a 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.639 whole acts to grind here on the survival of Christianity. 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.720 And he wrote an entire work titled on the Death 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:21.000 of Persecutors, in which he writes the following about Valerian. 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.760 And this is of course at a translation here. And 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:27.440 presently Valerian, also in a mood of like frantic, lifted 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.159 up his impious hands to assault God, and although his 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:35.600 time was short, shed much righteous blood. But God punished 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.800 him in a new and extraordinary manner. That it might 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.840 be a lesson to future ages that the adversaries of 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:46.840 heaven always received the just recompense of their inequities. He, 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.200 having been made prisoner by the Persians, lost not only 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.960 that power which he had exercised without moderation, but also 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.000 the liberty of which he had deprived others. And he 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.920 wasted the remainder of his days in the violence conde 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.680 shtion of slavery for support or the king of the Persians, 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.680 who had made him prisoner, whenever he chose to get 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.760 into his carriage or to mount on horseback, commanded the 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:12.800 Roman to stoop and present his back. Then, setting his 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.359 foot on the shoulders of Valerian, he said, with a 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.199 smile of reproach, quote, this is true and not what 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:23.600 the Romans delineate on board or plaster unquote and just 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.160 a pause right there. I love how in this account 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:30.440 Lectantius has uh the has the king of the Sasanians 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.480 here basically turned to the reader and say, this is true. 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:40.200 I'm not making this up. Don't believe those Romans. That's 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:45.280 good anyway, Electanious continues here. Valerian lived for a considerable 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:49.040 time under the well merited insults off his conqueror, so 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.800 that the Roman name remained long the scoff and derision 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.840 of the barbarians. And this also was added to the 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.600 severity of his punishment, that although he had an emperor 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.119 for his son, he found no one to revenge his 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:07.840 captivity and most abject and servile state. Neither indeed, was 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:11.240 he ever demanded back. Afterward, when he had finished this 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:15.320 shameful life under so great dishonor, he was flayed and 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.919 his skin stripped from the flesh, was died with remillion 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:23.200 and placed in the temple of the gods of the Barbarians, 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:27.920 that the remembrance of a triumph so signal might be perpetuated, 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.840 and that this spectacle might always be exhibited to our 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:35.119 ambassadors as an admonition of the Romans that beholding the 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:39.080 spoils of their captived emperor in a Persian temple, they 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:43.000 should not place too great confidence in their own strength. Okay, 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:45.560 So it gets very clive barker at the end here, 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.720 and they say that that after after his torment is 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.600 in it, which again Lactantius is saying totally justified. Uh, 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.119 we don't know if if what he's saying here has 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.800 any basis in fact, but he's claiming that this he 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:01.520 got his come up and for for being a persecutor 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:04.600 of Christians. And when it was all done, his skin 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:09.040 was removed from his body, was died red and then 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.920 was placed in the temple of the gods of the barbarians. 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.960 Right right, pretty horrendous. And and again I do love 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:20.640 how he has U Sabu basically break the fourth wall 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.240 and say, hey, Christians, this is the real story. Don't 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.520 believe what anyone anyone else tells you, thus acknowledging that 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:30.040 there are other accounts of what happened. So I was 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:31.760 I was reading a little bit more about this. I 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:34.600 found a source source here. This was published in Classical 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:39.280 Quarterly in two thousand six from Erica Rhiner, titled The 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:44.520 Reddling of Valerian, and according to Rhiner, Ryan Reiner writes 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:46.920 that the like conscious account is by far the most 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:51.560 detailed and the most disputed, and she she shares and 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:53.920 weighs in on some of the other claims that come 0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:58.280