1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series on the 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: Fall of Valerium. Rob, can you cut us up? But 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: of course, if you haven't heard part one yet, you 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: should go back and listen to that first. But uh, 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: if you're assuming you have, Rob, can you do a 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: brief refresher? Yeah, yeah, I'll refresh everybody on the basics here. 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: So when are we well, we are during this is 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: all taking place during the Crisis of the third century. Uh, 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: this was a period between two thirty five and two 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: eighty four c E. In which the Roman Empire is 14 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: facing all sorts of internal problems just about following apart 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: lots of of warfare between different would be emperors. Uh, 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: there's near there's almost an emperor every year or during 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: this period. Meanwhile, in in Persia we have the strong 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: and united Sasanian Empire, and so in the last episode 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: we talked about the background, especially on the Sasanian Empire, 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: background on how Rome reaches the state, why it's in 21 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: such crisis, and who some of the major players are 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: and what some of the short imperial reigns consisted of. 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: Uh and so the key conflict though that the episode 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,639 Speaker 1: revolved around, was on one side the Roman Empire under 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: Emperor Valerian and then on the other side of the 26 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: Sasanian Empire under a Shapur the first And so we 27 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: talked about the Battle of Edessa. We talked about this, 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: this enormous military disaster in which not only are Valerians 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: forces defeated, but Valerian himself, the Emperor of Rome, is 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: dethroned and captured by enemy forces. He he is a 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: prisoner of war under the Sasanians. And so this is 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: this is ultimately you know what drew me into into 33 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: this whole topic here, like what are the ramifications of 34 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: such a defeat, Because again, while this does not compare 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: to say, the complete taking of a kingdom or the 36 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: destruction of its capital, the enslavement of the people, that 37 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: sort of thing, it's still an unthinkable occurrence in many 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: respects because the emperor is the very apex of the 39 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: imperium and now here he is in the hands of 40 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: the enemy. So for starters, yes, one is no longer 41 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: emperor if one is an enemy hands so instantly, once 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: Valerian is gets captured, the title of Roman emperor immediately 43 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: passes on to his son Galileinus. Galilenus was already essentially 44 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: co emperor with his father, and in two sixty he 45 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: becomes sole emperor, and ultimately he's going to reign till 46 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: two sixty eight eight year reign. Then he has assassinated, 47 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: that is, Master of to sixty greatly undermined him, and 48 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: he almost immediately had to deal with other usurpers within 49 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: the Roman ranks. Now on the other side of things, 50 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: on the Sasanian side of things, this of course is 51 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: a most momentous occasion, and Shahbour the first has it 52 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: commemorated in rock relief. I think it more than one 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: spot that survives. One of the key ones is this 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: place called Naxi roust tom. It shows two Roman emperors 55 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: subjugated by a figure mounted on horseback that is uh 56 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: supposed to be the first. So the two emperors here 57 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: are supposed to be Valerian, who of course has just 58 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: been captured. Also Phillip the Arab, the soldier Emperor of 59 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: Rome who followed the slain Gordian. This is the guy 60 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: who signed a treaty with the Sasanians. And there's another 61 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: rock relief elsewhere that also shows Valerian bowing before the 62 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: Sasanian king. Now, one of the sources that I referred 63 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: to a lot in the previous episode is Taraj Dairy, 64 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: who wrote this wonderful book about the Sasanians. Go back 65 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: and um and listen to that episode for for full 66 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: citation on that source. And he's referring here to Shapu 67 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: the first quote. No other person before could have claimed 68 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: that he was able to kill a Roman emperor, make 69 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: one a tributary, and capture and imprison a third. Spur 70 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: was very much aware of this feat and did not 71 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: hesitate to mention it in his inscription, and ultimately he 72 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: also ends up commemorating this victory in his biography as well. Um. 73 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: Now you'll remember the idea that he killed a Roman emperor. Uh, 74 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: that is maybe a beefed up claim. Uh. The emperor 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: in question uh may have just been killed by his 76 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: own soldiers, which was of course a common fate for 77 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: Roman emperors during this time of great unrest. Now Here 78 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: we get into another really contested aspect of all of this, 79 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: perhaps like the most contested aspect of the whole scenario, 80 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: and that is what then exactly happens to Valerian? Uh? 81 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: You know, we we know that he's not emperor anymore, 82 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: he is a prisoner of war. But but then what 83 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: does that mean? What what is going to happen to 84 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: a supreme ruler in enemy hands during this time? And? Uh? 85 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: We have various accounts of what happened. What happened we know, 86 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: for instance, uh Derry says that the Iranian sources say 87 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: that he and some senators and soldiers were deported uh 88 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: into a Sasanian territory, But we don't really know for 89 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: sure what happened. But the accounts range from the mundane 90 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: to the horrific, and all told, none of it is 91 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: truly out of the question during this time period, I 92 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: guess one big question we might ask is just like 93 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: what was standard treatment during the day for a captured 94 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: ruler of an enemy group? And in fact, we might 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: well look to the Romans for such an example. Oh yeah, sure, 96 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: because so the export of a defeated ruler to the 97 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: victorious metropol of the rival empire would not at all 98 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: have been an unheard of concept in ancient Rome. As 99 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: soon as we started talking about this subject, a couple 100 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: of examples came immediately to my mind. These are by 101 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: no means the only examples, but these are the first 102 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: ones I thought of. One is fictional and the other historical. 103 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: So the fictional example is a scene in William Shakespeare's 104 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: play Tied to Sandronicus, which, now, to be clear, this 105 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: is not like Shakespeare's other Roman plays, like Julius Caesar. 106 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: Those are based on real historical events, at least to 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: some extent, or events that were believed at Shakespeare's time 108 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: to be real historical events. Tied to Sandronicus is wholly 109 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: a fictional scenario, but individual elements from it and scenes 110 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: in it are based on scenarios that really did happen. 111 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: And the one I'm thinking of is the very beginning 112 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: of the play. And so, in a scene in Act one, 113 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: tit Us, the title character, is a Roman general. He's 114 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,239 Speaker 1: returning to Rome after a long or of conquest against 115 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: the Goths, and with him he brings prisoners that he 116 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: is parading through the streets, including Tamara, the queen of 117 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the Goths. And then a little bit further down, Lucius says, 118 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: give us the proudest prisoner of the Goths, that we 119 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: may hew his limbs, and on a pile at managed fratrum, 120 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: sacrifice his flesh before this earthly prison of their bones, 121 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: that so the shadows be not unappeased, nor we disturbed 122 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: with prodigies on earth. Uh. And then later Tamara herself, 123 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: the queen of the Goths, says, stay, Roman brethren, gracious conqueror, victorious, 124 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: Titus rue the tears I shed a mother's tears in 125 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: passion for her son. And if thy sons were ever 126 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: dear to thee, oh, think my son to be is 127 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: dear to me? Sufficeth not that we are brought to 128 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: Rome to beautify thy triumphs and return captive to thee 129 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: and to thy Roman yoke. But must my sons be 130 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: slaughtered in the streets for valiant doings in their country's cause? Oh? 131 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: If to fight for king and commonweal we're piety in thine. 132 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: It is in these Andronicus, stain not thy tomb with blood. 133 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: Wilt thou draw near the nature of the gods, draw 134 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: near them? Then, in being merciful, sweet mercy is nobility's 135 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: true badge. Thrice noble tyed us spare my firstborn son. 136 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: So the scenario is the this is the queen of 137 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: the defeated enemy nation that Rome has conquered. She has 138 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: brought back with her sons, and they are going to 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: do a human sacrifice of her captive son back here 140 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 1: in Rome. And she's pleading with tit us, don't do it, please, 141 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: don't do it, but they're going to do it again. 142 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: Not not a story or an account directly from the 143 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: time that we're talking about here and not from the Romans. 144 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: This is Shakespeare, but still uh it paints uh it 145 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: both a grim picture of what may have been the standard, 146 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: but also, at least from in Shakespeare's voice, it's asking 147 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: questions about like, is this really the way we should 148 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: handle things with when it comes to captives? Uh? Is 149 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 1: this really the way to go? Of course, as the 150 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: morality of Roman practices is highly questionable to us today, 151 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: I would say, even so is the implied morality of 152 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: of of the play where I don't know, so Tamara 153 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: eventually becomes the villain, right or I don't know. I 154 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: guess it's kind of hard to say. Within a within 155 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: a tragedy, hyper violent tragedy and revenge story like Titus Andronicus. 156 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: But she eventually becomes the wife of the emperor Saturdayninists 157 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: and then they end up. It's oh, it's a whole 158 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: big battle there. There's a lot of like slaughtering sons 159 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: and feeding them to people. But but but but to 160 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: bring it to real history, I think clearly this scene 161 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: in Shakespeare is based on real historical events. One example 162 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: that came to my mind immediately is the story of 163 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: Verse and Jettis, who was originally a nobleman of the 164 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: Arverni tribe of the Galls. Uh So, in the fifty BC, 165 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: Julius Caesar was engaged in a number of campaigns that 166 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: came to be known as the Gallic Wars. It was 167 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: a war, basically a war of conquest in Gaul, which 168 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,239 Speaker 1: Gaul is an area of western Europe that roughly corresponds 169 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: to modern day France and uh It's complicated, but basically 170 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: the aim of these wars was to bring the various 171 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: tribes of the region under Roman domination. Now this is 172 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: before Caesar was an emperor. At the time he was 173 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: um I believe he was governor of Gaul. But but 174 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: he he was he was a military commander, and he 175 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: was practicing a form of divide and rule, showing favor 176 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: on some Galic tribes and nobles in order to play 177 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: them against the other Galic tribes and nobles. And uh, 178 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: I think it is it's alleged that earlier in this 179 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: effort verse in Jeerics, this one particular Gallic noble had 180 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: been on relatively good terms with Rome and with Caesar. 181 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: But sometime later in the campaign verse, Generics did a 182 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: U turn and he ended up mounting an effort to 183 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: unite the Gallic tribes in brotherhood to say, okay, let's 184 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: stop squabbling with each other. We can't let them divide 185 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: and rule us. We got a band together and fight back. Now, 186 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: I know that initially under verse in Genderics, the goals 187 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: were actually pretty effective at resisting Roman conquest verse and 188 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: Generics apparently employed a sort of harass and deprive strategy, 189 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: so uh kind of uh having having quick moving troops, uh, 190 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: moving around and harassing the Roman column and then also 191 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: practicing scorched earth tactics to deprive the Romans of food 192 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: and other supplies. So you know, the Romans normally what 193 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: they would do is they would move into an area, 194 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: and then they would confiscate food and other important supplies 195 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: from the locals in order to feed their army. Verse 196 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: and Genderic said, Okay, now, what we're gonna do is 197 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: just like burn and destroy and remove all of the 198 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,239 Speaker 1: food in whatever area the Romans are about to move into, 199 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: so they can't feed themselves. And this actually was a 200 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: very smart tactic. But ultimately the girls were defeated. Caesar 201 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: surrounded and besieged Verse and Generics and and his forces 202 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: at a battle called the Battle of Alicia and fifty 203 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: two b c E. And, facing certain defeat, Verse and 204 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: Generics made a bid for mercy, a bid for mercy 205 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: for his troops by surrendering himself personally to Caesar. And 206 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: this story is told in the work of the second 207 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: and third century Roman historian Cassius Dio I think also 208 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: sometimes called Dio Cassius, and Dio Cassius writes as follows, 209 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: now Verse and Generics might have escaped, for he had 210 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: not been captured and was unwounded, but he hoped, since 211 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: he had once been on friendly terms with Caesar, that 212 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: he might obtain pardon from him. So he came to 213 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: him without any announcement by Harold, but appeared before him 214 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: suddenly as Caesar was see it on the tribunal, and 215 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: threw some who were present into alarm, for he was 216 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: very tall to begin with, and in his armor he 217 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: made an extremely imposing figure. When quiet had been restored, 218 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: he uttered not a word, but fell upon his knees 219 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: with hands clasped, in an attitude of supplication. This inspired 220 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: many with pity at remembrance of his former fortune and 221 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: at the distressing state in which he now appeared. But 222 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: Caesar reproached him in this very matter on which he 223 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: most relied for his safety, and by setting over against 224 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: his claim of former friendship, his recent opposition showed his 225 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: offense to have been the more grievous. Therefore, he did 226 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: not pity him even at the time, but immediately confined 227 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: him in bonds, and later, after sending him to his triumph, 228 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: put him to death. And then I think after this 229 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: event Caesar basically slaughtered everybody that the Roman behavior in 230 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: the Gallic Wars was extremely brutal. Now coming back to 231 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: what do Cassius says at the end of that passage 232 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: that he was sent to Rome for for Caesar's triumph 233 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: and then he was eventually put to death. Apparently what 234 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: happened is he he was sent to Rome, where he 235 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: was held in prison for about five or six years 236 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: before being ritually executed. After he was displayed to the 237 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: public in Caesar's Four Triumphs in forty six b C. 238 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: The Four Triumphs, it was a kind of victory parade 239 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: and festivals, celebrating the conquest of the various nations who 240 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: had come under Rome's heel Uh to read from Dio 241 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: Cassius in a different section describing the Four Triumphs quote 242 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: after this, he conducted the whole festival in a brilliant manner, 243 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: as was fitting in honor of victories so many and 244 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: so decisive. He celebrated triumphs for the Gauls, for Egypt, 245 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: for for Nassis, and for Juba in four sections on 246 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: four separate days. Most of it, of course, delighted the spectators. 247 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: But the site of Arsenal of Egypt and Arsenal was 248 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: U was a queen of the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, 249 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: and that that dynasty was unseated by Julius Caesar around 250 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: forty seven b C. E UM. But to continue the quotes, 251 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: saying of Arsenal, whom he led among the captives, and 252 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: the host of lictors, and the symbols of triumph taken 253 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: from the citizens who had fallen in Africa displeased them exceedingly. 254 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: The lictors, on account of their numbers, appeared to them 255 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: a most offensive multitude, since never before had they beheld 256 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: so many at one time. And the site of Arsenal, 257 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: a woman and one considered a queen in chains, a 258 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: spectacle which had never yet been seen at least in Rome, 259 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: aroused very great pity, and with this as an excuse 260 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: they lamented their private misfortunes. She, to be sure, was 261 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: released out of consideration for her brothers. But others, including 262 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: Verse in Generics, were put to death. And I don't 263 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: know what the source on this following detail is, but 264 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: it seems like most historians agree that the way verse 265 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: and Genderics was put to death was by garrotting, a 266 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: kind of ritual strangulation. And I believe in a temple um, 267 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: but this seems to be a ritual well known to 268 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: the Romans, that like a leader of a subjugated nation 269 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: would sometimes be brought back to Rome as a kind 270 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: of souvenir of the returning conqueror's power and then put 271 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: on public display in some fashion, probably sort of humiliated. 272 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: And then after that it seems their fates were varied. 273 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: Some were put to death, others were given a more 274 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: merciful fate of some kind, and may be released or 275 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: kept imprisoned, though I believe it's it's interesting that in 276 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: that passage dou Cassius says that Arsenal was released. I 277 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: think other historians right that after years of being imprisoned 278 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: in a temple, Arsenal was executed on orders of Mark Antony, 279 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: allegedly at the behest of Cleopatra. But that again, that's 280 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: one of those things that you wonder if that's historically 281 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: true or if that's just somebody who's like mad at 282 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: Antony and Cleopatra trying to make them look bad. Right, right, 283 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: there's certainly plenty of that to go around. By the way, 284 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: this episode with verse and generics was depicted in the 285 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: HBO series Rome. I'd kind of forgotten about this, but 286 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: once you went through the description, I had to look 287 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: it up. It was like, yes, yes, that was depicted 288 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: at one point in that series. Oh, I don't think 289 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: I've seen that, so what did they What do they 290 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: do to him? And like that they strangle him in 291 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: the temple? Did they put him on parade? Uh? They either? 292 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: I think they might. It's been a long time since 293 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: I've seen this, this show, and I'm not in a 294 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: big hurry to watch it again, but it has a 295 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: wonderful cast. I believe they have him depicted strangled, perhaps 296 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: in in a cage in the street or on the 297 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: steps of a temple. But again, my memory on this 298 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: is foggy, so I don't know if this is true, 299 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: but it seems like a common received interpretation that Verse 300 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: and generics was was put to death here because he 301 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: turned on Caesar and humiliated Caesar's forces in battle. That, 302 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, because he had been very successful in stopping 303 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: them early on the lad to him being treated especially harshly. 304 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: But in general Roman leaders were very cruel, very brutal, 305 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: very into domination, and had a low tolerance for being 306 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: embarrassed than Alright, So that leads us back to Valerian, 307 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: and certainly it doesn't It doesn't look great for him 308 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: at this point based on what we've covered thus far. Uh, 309 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: for starters, he certainly died in captivity. There's no version 310 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: of the history here in which he escapes that fate. Um, 311 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: I guess it should be noted. As far as I know, 312 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: there's there are no surviving accounts that he escaped that fate, 313 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: And I guess there's no there's no like real reason, 314 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: there was no real faction that had an interest in 315 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: pushing that fiction. Um, you know, in which that version 316 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: of of history serves some purpose or another. But we'll getna, 317 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, we'll get more into that. But you might 318 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: remember in our Path stepisode we talked about Lea how 319 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: how was the defeat at the Battle of the Deaths 320 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: a framed? How are the particulars of that defeat passed down? 321 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of times it's about from 322 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: the Christian perspective, it's about saying Valerian was punished by 323 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: God because he was cruel to Christians back home and 324 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: had a pope put to death. And then from the 325 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: Roman standpoint, it's a it's about pushing the idea that well, 326 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: he was weak and the Sasanians were deceptive, uh and 327 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: and therefore sort of excuse the loss to some extent. 328 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: But as we said earlier, there's a there's a lot 329 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: of leeway and how we might actually interpret his death, 330 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: and in how the various histories have mentioned the death 331 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: of Valerian in Sasanian hands. Since we're already talking about 332 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: the horrific side of things, let's stick with the horrific 333 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: side of things, and then we'll come back to the 334 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: more mundane possibilities towards the end. It's kind of a 335 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: palate cleanser, I guess so. According to early Christian writer 336 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: and Christian apologist Leuctonscious, who lived to fifty three five UM, 337 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: things were pretty grim for Valerian. And we have to mention, though, 338 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: that the thing about like Conscious is he has a 339 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: whole acts to grind here on the survival of Christianity. 340 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: And he wrote an entire work titled on the Death 341 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: of Persecutors, in which he writes the following about Valerian. 342 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: And this is of course at a translation here. And 343 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: presently Valerian, also in a mood of like frantic, lifted 344 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: up his impious hands to assault God, and although his 345 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: time was short, shed much righteous blood. But God punished 346 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: him in a new and extraordinary manner. That it might 347 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: be a lesson to future ages that the adversaries of 348 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: heaven always received the just recompense of their inequities. He, 349 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: having been made prisoner by the Persians, lost not only 350 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: that power which he had exercised without moderation, but also 351 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: the liberty of which he had deprived others. And he 352 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: wasted the remainder of his days in the violence conde 353 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: shtion of slavery for support or the king of the Persians, 354 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: who had made him prisoner, whenever he chose to get 355 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: into his carriage or to mount on horseback, commanded the 356 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: Roman to stoop and present his back. Then, setting his 357 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: foot on the shoulders of Valerian, he said, with a 358 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: smile of reproach, quote, this is true and not what 359 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: the Romans delineate on board or plaster unquote and just 360 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: a pause right there. I love how in this account 361 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: Lectantius has uh the has the king of the Sasanians 362 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: here basically turned to the reader and say, this is true. 363 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: I'm not making this up. Don't believe those Romans. That's 364 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: good anyway, Electanious continues here. Valerian lived for a considerable 365 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: time under the well merited insults off his conqueror, so 366 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: that the Roman name remained long the scoff and derision 367 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: of the barbarians. And this also was added to the 368 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: severity of his punishment, that although he had an emperor 369 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: for his son, he found no one to revenge his 370 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: captivity and most abject and servile state. Neither indeed, was 371 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: he ever demanded back. Afterward, when he had finished this 372 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: shameful life under so great dishonor, he was flayed and 373 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: his skin stripped from the flesh, was died with remillion 374 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: and placed in the temple of the gods of the Barbarians, 375 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: that the remembrance of a triumph so signal might be perpetuated, 376 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: and that this spectacle might always be exhibited to our 377 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: ambassadors as an admonition of the Romans that beholding the 378 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: spoils of their captived emperor in a Persian temple, they 379 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: should not place too great confidence in their own strength. Okay, 380 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: So it gets very clive barker at the end here, 381 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: and they say that that after after his torment is 382 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: in it, which again Lactantius is saying totally justified. Uh, 383 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: we don't know if if what he's saying here has 384 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: any basis in fact, but he's claiming that this he 385 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: got his come up and for for being a persecutor 386 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: of Christians. And when it was all done, his skin 387 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: was removed from his body, was died red and then 388 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: was placed in the temple of the gods of the barbarians. 389 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: Right right, pretty horrendous. And and again I do love 390 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: how he has U Sabu basically break the fourth wall 391 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: and say, hey, Christians, this is the real story. Don't 392 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: believe what anyone anyone else tells you, thus acknowledging that 393 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: there are other accounts of what happened. So I was 394 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: I was reading a little bit more about this. I 395 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: found a source source here. This was published in Classical 396 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: Quarterly in two thousand six from Erica Rhiner, titled The 397 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: Reddling of Valerian, and according to Rhiner, Ryan Reiner writes 398 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: that the like conscious account is by far the most 399 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: detailed and the most disputed, and she she shares and 400 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: weighs in on some of the other claims that come 401 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: about in some case add more uh more more details 402 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: to this particular count. She points out that only a 403 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: single account, that of Agatheus, who lived five thirty through two, 404 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: says that Valerian was flayed alive. Uh this is there 405 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: is the only account where that extra detail is added 406 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: almost in like a sort of like I can't just 407 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: retail that story. I've gotta I gotta make it a 408 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: little grizzlier. And so there's an upping of the anti here. 409 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: Later some commentators, including Constantine, um add the detail that 410 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: and then well, this is sort of the detail. I 411 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: guess h that he was embalmed, that Valerian was embalmed, 412 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: um that that there's some uh, you know, attempt to 413 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: preserve the body. So it's interesting, I guess if we're 414 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: getting u info about not info claims about this from Constantine, 415 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: is Constantine trying to add on, like jump on the 416 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: bandwagon of like, here's how Valerian got what he deserved 417 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: because Constantine was of course the first Christian Roman emperor. 418 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: I mean it basically falls, you know, it basically has 419 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: to do with this, with the whole role that Valerian 420 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: has after his fall in Christian power in the view 421 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: of Christian oppression in the past. So yeah, like he 422 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: remains a coin that maybe uh uh, you know, cashed 423 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: in from time to time and speeches and so forth. Now, 424 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: another account, this was from Peter the Patrician, who lived 425 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: five through five. Uh. This this kind of backs up 426 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: the whole idea of of the skin having been preserved. Uh. 427 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: Peter writes, quote even after death with loathsome art, you 428 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: kept his skin and inflicted an undying insult on his 429 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: dead body. But then Reiner gets into questioning this whole 430 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: thing about the red dying of the skin, because this 431 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: instantly stands out like it's one thing. Okay, we can 432 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: understand flaying, you know, horrific, but there are other accounts 433 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: and history of things like this occurring. Um, and it 434 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: continues to echo through our fantastic fiction and our you know, 435 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: grizzly entertainments. But then the dying of it read what 436 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: does that mean? Like? What is there something lost in translation? 437 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: Is there some sort of a Uh, this is something 438 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, strange picked up in the telling of this tale. Uh. 439 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: Rhiner mentions that there is at least one theory that 440 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: this account of red dyed hides refers to Valerian having 441 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: to set aside his purple robes and where the hide 442 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: of a mere beast like a donkey or something in 443 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: a captivity and this might have been dyed purple and mockery. 444 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: But then again we're talking about purple in this case, 445 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: and it seems like all these other accounts we're looking at, 446 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: we're definitely talking about the color red. So, however, Rhyner 447 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: does point out that as outrageous and fabricated as these 448 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: accounts of the flame may very well be, they're also 449 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: not altogether out of keeping with the ancient world. And 450 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: in fact, Sargon the second of Assyria, who reigned through 451 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: seven oh five b c. Is said to have inflicted 452 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: such a fate on his enemies by his own recorded word. 453 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: He boasted of having defeated King's flade and their skins 454 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: dyed red as red wool, and Rhino discusses this for 455 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: a bit and asking questions about that sort of the 456 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: linguistics of the matter. You know, red as blood, red 457 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: as sunset, red as the horizon, and it is it 458 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: has remained a mystery than it is such a strange 459 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: claim that this idea that the the the flade hide 460 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: was dyed red. But Rob, you found an interesting little 461 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: letter to a classics journal called Nimo Sign that's a 462 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: journal published by Brill, which addresses this question of what 463 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: this could be a reference to, if it's not just 464 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: literally the skin being dyed red. Could this have another meaning? 465 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: And I thought this was so interesting. So the letter 466 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: was by a classics professor based in Ireland named David Woods, 467 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: and the letter was called Lactantius Valerian and Hallow feel bacteria. 468 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: Here's that science angle that we've been we've been mentioning. 469 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: So Wood says, you know, there's really no clear explanation 470 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: why Shebour would have died the skin of Valerian. Read 471 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: he acknowledges Reiner's thoughts regarding the flaying tradition, but then 472 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: says there's another possible explanation, and it goes like this. 473 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: If Shebour actually wanted to keep the skin of the 474 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: emperor as a permanent trophy of his victory rather than 475 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: something that would just sort of rot away, he would 476 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: of course have to preserve it somehow, and the standard 477 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: way of preserving a hide at that time would be 478 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: by curing. This assumption is given weight by a statement 479 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: of again the later Roman emperor Constantine, who mentions that 480 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: Shebour had ordered Valerian skin to be not only flayed 481 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: but preserved. I think this comes back to what you 482 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: said earlier about Constantine making claim that, uh that he 483 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: was embalmed. Woods writes that the verb constantine uses here 484 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: for preserve in this con text is the same word 485 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: used for the preservation of fish at the time, which 486 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: could refer to preservation by salting, pickling, or smoking. And generally, 487 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: if you were going to cure a hide in the 488 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: ancient world, this would have involved salt, you would use 489 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: lots of salt. Uh now. Woods cites a couple of 490 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: scholars named Land and Hoaxteing to point out that sometimes 491 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: the salt curing of a hide would be compromised if 492 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: the product was contaminated with a hallow felic bacteria hallow 493 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: fhelic meaning salt loving bacteria that can survive in extremely 494 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: salty environments. Apparently, these bacteria are well known pests in 495 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: the leather industry, and they produce a side effect called 496 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: red heat, just like the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie Um. And 497 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: it's called that because the byproduct of the presence of 498 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: these micro organisms is the reddening of surfaces that they colonize. 499 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: In fact, if you've ever seen a salt lake turn red, 500 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: this is caused by the same strains of hollow philic 501 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: micro organisms. Robbi attached one picture for you to look 502 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: at in their outline. Here, this is a photo I 503 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: found of the Great Salt Lake in Utah taken and 504 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: it's taken into place where the lake is divided by 505 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: a railroad causeway. On one half of the causeway, the 506 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: water looks like normal water, It's kind of blue green. 507 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: And then on the other half the water is bright red. Yeah, 508 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: indeed bright red almost almost leaning a little bit towards 509 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: purple almost, but definitely. Uh, you get this this reddish 510 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: vibe from it. Yeah, So I went to double check this. 511 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: I was looking, okay, leather industry sources. I wanted to 512 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: see about hollow philic bacterial contamination there, and it looks 513 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: like yes, this absolutely is in fact a problem in 514 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: the the leather industry. I found an article on how 515 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: to prevent it, or at least addressing the signs of it, 516 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: on a trade website called Leather International. I think this 517 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: is some kind of leather trade magazine. I don't know, 518 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: but the article is just called putrefaction. To read from 519 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: it here, they write quote, sometimes even when hides have 520 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: been well salted or brind bacteria can still grow. These 521 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: are a particular type of bacteria which are hollophilic or 522 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: salt loving and are commonly colored red or purple, affecting 523 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: hides that are said to have red heat. Under normal 524 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: storage conditions. For raw hides or skins, red and purple 525 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: heat bacteria take a relatively long time to grow, around 526 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: two to three months. Therefore, their presence is an indication 527 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: that the hides or skins have been in storage for 528 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: some time. However, at higher temperatures around thirty to forty 529 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: degrees celsius, growth will be more rapid. The warm humid 530 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: conditions favored by red heat bacteria are also favored by 531 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: other non colored spoilage bacteria, so if salt levels are 532 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: not high enough, putrefactive bacteria may also be present. It 533 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: was once thought that red heat bacteria caused no harm 534 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: to the hide, but it is now known that some 535 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: types of bacteria do produce proteolytic enzymes which are capable 536 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: of damaging collagen. Proteolytic enzymes I think would be um 537 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: enzymes that dissolve proteins. Now, this article also offers preventative 538 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: measures to to keep away putrefactive bacteria, the kind of 539 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: bacteria that would cause leather to actually rot. But they say, 540 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, for red heat there they're not really as 541 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: many things you can do. I guess maybe it's harder 542 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: to keep out um. But anyway, I kept looking more 543 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: into the idea of these red halophiles, the salt loving bacteria, 544 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: and one interesting thing I found is that while many 545 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: older sources, including the ones I was just looking at, 546 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: refer to red halophiles as bacteria, it seems that most 547 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,719 Speaker 1: of the prominent examples of of red colored halophiles are 548 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: actually now classified as archaea. Now, Archaea are very similar 549 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: to bacteria in many ways. They're both lineages of single 550 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: celled organised ums without a true nuclear membrane, but they're 551 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: distinct from each other. They split off from one another 552 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: extremely early in the history of life on Earth, probably 553 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: something like four billion years ago, and there are some 554 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: common structural differences between them, even though they're they're both 555 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: single celled organisms. For in a lot of ways, Archia 556 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: are just sometimes referred to as a type of bacteria UM. 557 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, they're these different clades, and some of the 558 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: structural differences that are found between them have to do 559 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: with things like cell walls and membranes, like the chemical 560 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: characteristics of the lipids in their cell membranes, are different. 561 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: But another common feature relevant to this discussion is that 562 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: archia are most often found in extreme environments that are 563 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: less friendly to other earth life. So archia are abundant 564 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: in extremely hot environments such as around deep sea vents 565 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: or hot springs, or deep underground, in low oxygen, high 566 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: pressure geological deposits like around fossil fuel deposits, or in 567 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: extremely chemically unfriendly environments such as the various salt hells 568 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: of the world. Now, I was curious why there would 569 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: be a tendency for the microbes that battle for life 570 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: in these salt hells to be red in color. Uh, 571 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: And I found a paper that at least identifies a 572 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: common biochemical factor. So uh. This paper was by Harran 573 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: Orn and Francisco Rodriguez val Era, published in f e 574 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: MS Microbiology Ecology in two thousand one, called the contribution 575 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: of halophilic bacteria to the red coloration of saltern crystallizer ponds. 576 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: So in this article, the authors start by looking at 577 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: natural hypersaline environments like salt lakes, but also at human 578 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: constructed environments like these saltern crystallizer pools. Assaultern is essentially 579 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: a factory for harvesting sea salt. And in the old 580 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: school process, what you do is you leave a bunch 581 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: of sea water out in these pools and you leave 582 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: it under the hot sun, so the water content can evaporate, 583 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: leaving crystallized sodium chloride behind and you can harvest it. 584 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: Uh Rob Again, I attached some pictures for you to 585 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: look at. These pools are often kind of arranged in 586 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: these big reflective rectangles out by the ocean side. And 587 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: an interesting thing is that if you look up pictures 588 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: of saltern pools occasionally you will find that they are 589 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: red in color. And I was reading another paper that 590 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 1: claimed that testing of the microbial communities in solar saltern 591 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: pools usually reveals that there's very little microbial diversity. They 592 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: tend to be dominated almost entirely by hallow feel like 593 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: archia like we're just talking about. But hallo feel like 594 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: archia are not the only things in there. So to 595 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: read from a section of or in at all the 596 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: paper I referenced a minute ago quote, two types of 597 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: carotenoid rich micro organisms have literally been implicated in causing 598 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: the red coloration. You've got hallophilic archaea of the family 599 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: hallo bacteria sy and the unicellular green alga Dunaliella selina. 600 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: The main pigments of the hallow bacteria cy r C 601 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: fifty carotenoids mainly alpha bacteria rubrin and derivatives, while Dunaliella 602 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: accumulates massive amounts of beta carotene under suitable conditions. The 603 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: relative contributions of red archaea and beta carotene rich Dunaliella 604 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: cells to the coloration of saltine crystallizer ponds have been studied. 605 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: In the past, beta carotene was often found in quantities 606 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: greatly exceeding the archaeal bacteria ruberns. In spite of this, 607 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: the optical properties of the salter and brines were determined 608 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: primarily by the archaeal community. This apparent discrepancy was explained 609 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: by the extremely small in vivo optical cross section of 610 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: the beta carotene in dunali La cells. As the carotenoid 611 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: is densely packed in granules within the algal chloroplast, the 612 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: presence of even large amounts of this pigment may contribute 613 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: much less to the overall red color than the archaeal pigments, 614 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: which are distributed evenly on the cell membrane and The 615 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: study also did find a small presence of halophilic bacteria 616 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: in some salt terns, but not others like it found uh, 617 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: actual halophilic bacteria of a type called saline bacter that 618 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: was present in the crystal in the crystallizer ponds that 619 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: were sampled from California, but not the ones that were 620 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: sampled from Israel. So it seems there's some geographic variation there. 621 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: But ultimately they say yes to create this red color, 622 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: the most important components are these extremophile archaea, the salt 623 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: loving archaea. And I thought it was interesting that what's 624 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: causing the red color here are these carotenoids, which are present, 625 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: of course throughout all different kinds of life. If you 626 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: eat red or orange colored vegetables or fruits, uh, those 627 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: red and orange orange colors are generally going to be 628 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: a result of carotenoid pigments and uh. And of course 629 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: you know when you eat a red carrot. Uh. People 630 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: talk about carrots being a good source of vitamin A, 631 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: which they are, But what's actually happening metabolically there is 632 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: you're eating them and they contain these red orange pigments, 633 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: the carotenoids, which then through your metabolism are turned into 634 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 1: vitamin A. So if woods idea is correct, that actually 635 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: what this, you know, this dying red of the of 636 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: the high of Emperor Valerian. If that is actually some 637 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: ancient commentator looking at the skin seeing it's red and 638 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: then mistaking it being colonized by hallophilic Archaea for it 639 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: being dyed red on purpose, then what's causing that red 640 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: color is probably part of the same family of pigment compound, 641 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: the carotenoids that make your carrots red or orange fascinating. 642 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: So so yeah, it seems very uh biologically possible that 643 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: you could have an attempt to preserve the hide like 644 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: this uh flamed skin of human being, and then lo 645 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: and behold it ends up taking on this red color, 646 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: which ultimately makes me really potentially feel for this um, 647 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: the centner of this hide worker that's suddenly called in 648 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: one day to the palace and you and you find 649 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: out you have a particular task ahead of you, you 650 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: need to preserve the skin, and then it ends up 651 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: turning red like how do you how do you spin that? 652 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: How do you sell that? I? Yes, or your majesty, um, 653 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: might this look better if it were red? Think about it. 654 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: I think they think about all the connotations of the 655 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,959 Speaker 1: of the color um really really get him on board 656 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: with this, make you think it was his idea before 657 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: presenting him with this hide that uh ended up turned 658 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: in this color on you, right? So anyway, that's what 659 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: would Woods argues in this letter that maybe the ancient 660 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: reports are mistaken. It was not actually dyed red. Shubar 661 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,919 Speaker 1: didn't do that on purpose. Instead, somehow tried to cure 662 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: it with salt, and then it was colonized by halophilic 663 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: bacteria or actually, more likely halophilic archaea, causing the red 664 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: heat phenomenon that's been known to the leather industry actually 665 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: since ancient times. Woods rites quote the importance of this 666 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: discovery is that it confirms that the ultimate source of 667 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 1: lactantious information in this matter must have seen Valerian skin firsthand. 668 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: He then made the understandable but erroneous assumption that Subber 669 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: had ordered the skin to be dyed red. A humble 670 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: leather producer would not have made such a mistake, but 671 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: few diplomats, ancient or modern, have a background in the 672 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: leather industry. Now, I think that's all pretty well put, 673 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: except I don't think I agree that it confirms Lactantius 674 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: as source would have seen it firsthand, but I'd agree 675 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: it makes it more like yeah, yeah, absolutely, um and uh. 676 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: And again, on one hand, we have, of course the 677 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: older account from Sargon that that you know, reminds us 678 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: that such horrendous things did occur in the ancient world 679 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: and uh. And then this is something that Rehiner gets 680 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 1: into a little bit as well, you know, pointing out that, okay, 681 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 1: we have we have these two alleged incidents of flaying 682 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: and the reddening of a of a skin, but they 683 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: occur about a thousand years apart um. But Rehiner contends 684 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: that either perhaps there is some truth to the le 685 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: conscious account, or perhaps there's this kind of cultural memory 686 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: of Sargon's deeds. Ultimately, I think you could spend this 687 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: is see this is kind of a trope about the 688 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: evil things that Eastern kings do to defeated emperors. Um. Uh, 689 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: there's you know some memory of also Sargon did this, 690 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: and then it gets sort of wrapped into the account 691 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: if you need perhaps something horrible to happen to Valerian 692 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,439 Speaker 1: in your history to again prop up the idea that 693 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 1: that God has punished Valerian, then perhaps you draw in 694 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 1: this historical detail and it becomes part of your story. 695 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: Now on the more mundane side of things, we do 696 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: have some some other accounts. Uh. There's the the writer Eutropiusts, 697 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: who was writing between three sixty four and three seventy eight, 698 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: and he contended that quote Valerian, while he was occupied 699 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: in a war in Mesopotamia, was overthrown by Shapoor, king 700 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: of Persia, and being soon after made made prisoner, grew 701 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: old in ignominious slavery among the Parthians. So in that account, 702 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: it's like basically, well they took him away, they locked 703 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: him up, and yeah, he he died there. Uh. He 704 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: was already by you know, by many accounts, an older man, 705 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: he was in his sixties. And how long is he 706 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: gonna live in captivity? Uh? In enemy captivity? Now to 707 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: Rajdari also gets in on this and seems to side 708 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: with this interpretation as well, Uh, that that he the 709 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: Valerian and some of his men were sent back uh 710 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: into Sasanian territory, into Bishopur and modern Iran, where one 711 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 1: of the card reliefs there show him kneeling before the 712 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,320 Speaker 1: mounted king. In this area would become known as Valerians prison. 713 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: And I also can't help but wonder this is just 714 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: me here that this isn't anything any of these authors 715 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 1: were discussing. But again we have these rock reliefs showing 716 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: Valerian bowing uh in Roman Emperor's bowing before the the 717 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: king of the Sasanians who has mounted on horseback. I 718 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: wonder if if it's possible that you can have a 719 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: situation where it's like some sort of misunderstanding of the 720 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: visuals here that lead to the idea of him being 721 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: a footstool to mount a horse. I don't know. Anyway, 722 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 1: there's not really any consensus on when Valerian dies in captivity. 723 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: It may have been the same year. So sometimes you 724 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: see him list is having lived till two sixty Uh. 725 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: He might have been executed more or less immediately or 726 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: within that year. Other times you see a date of 727 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: two sixty four mentioned saying that he lived about four 728 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: years in enemy captivity before he either dies of some 729 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: natural causes, is just sort of uh removed, or some 730 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: more extravagant means of execution. Uh. Either way, Yeah, you 731 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,439 Speaker 1: tend to see two sixty or two sixty four Uh. So, yeah, 732 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 1: he might have just lived out the rest of his 733 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: life in prison. Uh, he may have been made a 734 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: maker off. He may have been tortured to death or 735 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: flayed following a quicker execution. And of course the different 736 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: versions of the tale again, they kind of fulfill different needs, 737 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: both in the turbulent years following the Battle of Edessa, 738 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: but also for years to follow. So we almost end 739 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: up in this kind of quantum state where where anything 740 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: any of these accounts seem possible, you know. Uh, And 741 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: and ultimately we'll never know what actually became of Emperor Hilaire. 742 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: Now here's a possibility you probably haven't considered. What if 743 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: he was fully externally colonized by hollow fili Archia before 744 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: he died, so he was already read. Maybe he's just 745 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: rubbing salt on his skin all day long and I 746 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 1: don't know it's getting in there. I'm not sure. Or 747 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,240 Speaker 1: here's another possibility. Uh, maybe Valerian removes his own skin, 748 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: then escapes and has someone else to wear that skin 749 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: after he has left. You know, it kind of does 750 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: a little Hannibal Lecter thing there, or reverse Hannibal Lecter. Well, 751 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: it's like face off. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it could be 752 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 1: like face off, except it's like whole skin off. Next 753 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 1: Nicolas Cage role playing Valerian. You know. In in thinking 754 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,520 Speaker 1: about these accounts of rulers being treated in some cases 755 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: horrifically or in other cases, perhaps you know, more politely, 756 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: but generally horrifically by by these various rulers, I was 757 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: reminded of all. I kept being reminded of this line 758 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: in Dune. In the novel Uh, this is a depicting 759 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: a scene that is in the recent part one film 760 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: that came out. Uh. Though this exact line of dialogue 761 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: I don't think is present. But basically, the Harconans have 762 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: moved against the Treedes, and we have that scene where 763 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:19,080 Speaker 1: the baron has Leto trades captive, and in the book 764 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 1: there's this bit of dialogue it goes like this quote, 765 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,320 Speaker 1: this is not a child's game we play. The baron rumbled. 766 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: You must know that he leaned towards Leto studying the face. 767 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: It pained the baron that this could not be handled 768 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: privately just between the two of them. To have others 769 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: see royalty in such straits, it sets a bad example. 770 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: And I kept thinking about that because so many especially 771 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: on the Roman side. I mean, you have these these emperors, 772 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,280 Speaker 1: these absolute rulers whose position is actually rather precarious, and 773 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: and death is never that far away, and the shadow 774 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,760 Speaker 1: of of uprising and dethronement, you know, is always present 775 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: in the mind of any ruler, even one who enjoys 776 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,759 Speaker 1: a rather secure rain. Uh. You know it's it's say, 777 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 1: um take Otashir the first you know, he he was 778 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: able to retire and uh and die a natural death, 779 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: but he didn't do that by not keeping an eye 780 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: out for all those who tried to rise up against him. 781 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 1: And so it makes me think about that, like in 782 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: and I guess you get into some of that Shakespearean 783 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 1: morality as well, like the mistreatment of of other rulers, 784 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: Like there has to be this moment where you realize, 785 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: like this, this could easily be me, And what kind 786 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: of example do we continue to set for those around 787 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: us who may one day be the ones to rise 788 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: up against us. Uh. And it's it's an interesting moment 789 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,360 Speaker 1: in in Herbert's doone as well, because you know, obviously 790 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: the baron harkonan or or or hearkening to be more 791 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,959 Speaker 1: authentic here. You know, he's not if he doesn't feel 792 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 1: any actual mercy towards Letto. But it's the idea that well, 793 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: the lesser people, the commoners, the soldiers, they shouldn't see 794 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: this between us like there there's this and and of 795 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: course in the world of June, you know, these great 796 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,239 Speaker 1: houses are are connected in various ways as well. All right, well, 797 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: I guess we're gonna go and close this out here. 798 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: But I greatly enjoyed this examination of of history and 799 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: histories concerning the fall of Emperor Valerian. Um. I I 800 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 1: apologize if I messed up any pronunciations in this. We 801 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: had to to to juggle uh two different tongues here, uh, 802 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 1: and I hope that I didn't get anything wrong to 803 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: try to try to make sure we hit the pronunciations correctly. 804 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: You're a lot of names today. We I think you 805 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: did good well. Thanks uh oh. And by the way, 806 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,399 Speaker 1: that taraj Dari. That book is Sasani in Iran too 807 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: through six fifty one, a d portrait of a late 808 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: antique empire from Mazda Publishers, who came out in two 809 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,839 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Uh. It's it's a really good read. 810 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: I recommend it for anyone's interested in this time liime 811 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: period in this particular dynastic Um rule. Uh. It's it's 812 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: a not a very not a very thick book, very readable, 813 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: has some some nice illustrations and maps in it. All Right, well, 814 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna go and close the book 815 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: here on old Emperor Valeria. But we'd love to hear 816 00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: from everybody out there if you have any thoughts on 817 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 1: the histories at play here, If perhaps we have some 818 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: folks out there who have some experience uh, preserving hides 819 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 1: and leather and so forth, and perhaps you can weigh 820 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:32,319 Speaker 1: in on this reddening that we've discussed. Uh and uh, hey, 821 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,240 Speaker 1: let us know if there are there are other episodes 822 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: in history you'd like us to cover. I don't know, 823 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,360 Speaker 1: maybe there's some some other dethroned emperors of note in 824 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 1: the history books that would make for a good episode. 825 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,720 Speaker 1: Let us know. In the meantime, you'll find core episodes 826 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: of stuff to blow your mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 827 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 1: On Mondays we do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do 828 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,320 Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact episodes, and on Fridays 829 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,600 Speaker 1: we do Weird how Cinema. That's our time to set 830 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: aside most serious concerns and just focus on a weird film, 831 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,440 Speaker 1: and you'll find all of this in the Stuff to 832 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,320 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed huge thanks as always to 833 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would 834 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,640 Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 835 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,040 Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 836 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,400 Speaker 1: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 837 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,600 Speaker 1: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 838 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,760 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 839 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 840 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 841 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: favorite shows.