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Speaker 1: Pushkin, you're listening to Brave New Planet, a podcast about

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Speaker 1: amazing new technologies that could dramatically improve our world, or

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Speaker 1: if we don't make wise choices, could leave us a

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Speaker 1: lot worse off. Utopia or dystopia. It's up to us.

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Speaker 1: On October eighth, seventeen sixty nine, James Cook, an explorer

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Speaker 1: and captain in the British Royal Navy, became the first

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Speaker 1: European to set foot on the islands that are today

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Speaker 1: known as New Zealand. His arrival would have dramatic consequences

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Speaker 1: for the Maori people that had inhabited the land for

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Speaker 1: hundreds of years. It would also radically alter New Zealand's ecology,

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Speaker 1: because when Cook disembarked, so too did some of the

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Speaker 1: rats that did hitchhike on his ship. Previously unknown to

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Speaker 1: the Pacific Islands, these rodents grew in population over the

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Speaker 1: centuries and wreaked havoc on the environment. We're in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a rodent nami. You've seen the headlines. Rats

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Speaker 1: as big as cats. Rats everywhere. It is a problem too,

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Speaker 1: everywhere that you wouldn't believes. Hey, we've probably got the

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Speaker 1: most rats that double the most rats with ever head

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Speaker 1: shocking actually jsay shocking, and it's not just unpleasantness that's

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Speaker 1: the problem. The rats and other invasive mammals have been

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Speaker 1: decimating New Zealand's birds. They devoured tens of millions of

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Speaker 1: eggs and baby birds every year, causing the extinction of

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Speaker 1: one quarter of the nation's unique bird species. New Zealand

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Speaker 1: has long tried to get rid of these invaders. The

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Speaker 1: traditional answer has been to spread rat poison all over

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Speaker 1: the islands, often by helicopters, but rat poison is indiscriminate.

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Speaker 1: Native animals can also die from eating it. Sometimes humans

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Speaker 1: accidentally consume it as well, and it hasn't solved the problem. Recently,

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Speaker 1: scientists have proposed a much more targeted solution. It's called

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Speaker 1: a gene drive, a genetic engineering trick that guarantees that

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Speaker 1: when two animals mate, a specific gene will be inherited

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Speaker 1: by one hundred percent of their progeny. In time, any gene,

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Speaker 1: even a disadvantageous gene, would spread through the population. If

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Speaker 1: New Zealand were to release genetically engineered rats with a

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Speaker 1: gene drive, to dramatically decrease the rat's fertility, while the

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Speaker 1: rat population would shrink, In effect, evolution could be directed

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Speaker 1: to vote the rats off the islands. And it's not

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Speaker 1: just rats. Gene drives might be used against any invasive

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Speaker 1: animal or plant that uses sexual reproduction, and they might

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Speaker 1: also be used to save species, for example, by helping

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Speaker 1: them survive the effects of climate change. Most importantly, gene

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Speaker 1: drives might save millions of lives by eliminating or modifying

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Speaker 1: the mosquito that's primarily responsible for spreading malaria throughout sub

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Speaker 1: Saharan Africa. Now, no one has yet deployed gene drives

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Speaker 1: in the wild, but they've been shown to work in

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Speaker 1: the laboratory reshaping nature. It's a heady concept. Scientists are

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Speaker 1: exhilarated by the possibilities for improving the world. At the

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Speaker 1: same time they're wondering what could possibly go wrong. Today's

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Speaker 1: big question. Should we use gene drives to correct the

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Speaker 1: past introduction of invasive species, protect species from the ravages

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Speaker 1: of climate change, and save humans from serious infectious diseases

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Speaker 1: or is it too risky? Evolution in ecology, after all,

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Speaker 1: can be strangely unpredictable. When might the risks be justified?

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Speaker 1: And when you're proposing to release things into nature, who

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Speaker 1: needs to say yes. My name is Eric Lander. I'm

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Speaker 1: a scientist who works on ways to improve human health.

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Speaker 1: I helped lead the Human Genome Project, and today I

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Speaker 1: lead the Road Institute of MIT and Harvard. In the

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Speaker 1: twenty first century, powerful technologies have been appearing at a

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Speaker 1: breathtaking pace, related to the Internet, artificial intelligence, genetic engineering,

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Speaker 1: and more. They have amazing potential upsides, but we can't

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Speaker 1: ignore the risks that come with them. The decisions aren't

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Speaker 1: just up to scientists or politicians, whether we like it

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Speaker 1: or not, we all of us are the stewards of

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Speaker 1: a brave New planet. This generation's choices will shape the

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Speaker 1: future as never before. Coming up on this episode of

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Speaker 1: Brave New Planets, we speak to scientists who played a

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Speaker 1: key role in inventing gene drives. This is potentially a

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Speaker 1: much more elegant way of solving ecological problems than poisons

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Speaker 1: and bulldozers. We talk with people trying to balance the

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Speaker 1: benefits and risks. Okay, so people are looking at using

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Speaker 1: genetic engineering to alter wild species. This is really exciting

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Speaker 1: and at the same time I'm literally in the same breath,

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Speaker 1: I was also just like, holy crap, if this isn't

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Speaker 1: used properly, this could be really damaging to our planet.

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Speaker 1: We hear from a scientist in Burkina Fasso who wants

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Speaker 1: to use gene drives to get rid of malaria. This

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Speaker 1: is really my dream and my hope that I can

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Speaker 1: come up with something that kind of really helps not

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Speaker 1: only Africa. And a journalist from Kenya who's pretty skeptical.

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Speaker 1: It's very nice to think that people really care about

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Speaker 1: the lives of Africans, But I think the story is

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Speaker 1: a lot more complex than that. Stay tuned. Chapter one

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Speaker 1: snails the size of baseballs. To understand the reasons why

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Speaker 1: people might want to use gene drives, I talked with

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Speaker 1: someone who's thought a lot about them. My name is

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Speaker 1: doctor James Collins go by Jim, a professor in the

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Speaker 1: School of Life Sciences at Arizona State University. Jim is

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Speaker 1: an evolutionary ecollegist who co chaired a study on gene

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Speaker 1: drives for the US National Academy of Sciences. For an

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Speaker 1: evolutionary ecologist, he has a bit of an unusual upbringing.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in New York City, Queens and always

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Speaker 1: just had a love of plants and animals. In New

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Speaker 1: York City. In New York City, Queens at the time

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Speaker 1: was different than Queens today. I could go fishing. I

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Speaker 1: could catch turtles and snakes and frogs, all kinds of insects,

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Speaker 1: bring them home to my very tolerant parents. Jim knows

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Speaker 1: a lot about how ecosystems can be disrupted by the

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Speaker 1: introduction of new species, from microbes to mammals. He told

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Speaker 1: me that Captain Cook was responsible for more than just

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Speaker 1: introducing rats into New Zealand. Think about Hawaiian birds where

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Speaker 1: they are endangered by avian malaria, and that's as a

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Speaker 1: result of a mosquito being introduced by Captain Cook. Then

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Speaker 1: the colonists brought chickens, and they brought avian malaria. The

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Speaker 1: mosquitoes begin to feed on the chickens, acquire the malaria,

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Speaker 1: and then begin to feed on native birds, transmit the

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Speaker 1: malaria to native birds, and they are being diminished in

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Speaker 1: terms of population sizes, and even species. In fact, Hawaii

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Speaker 1: has become the bird extinction capital of the world. Since

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Speaker 1: humans arrived ninety five, one hundred and forty two birds

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Speaker 1: species found nowhere else in the world have become extinct

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Speaker 1: in Hawaii. Even small scale introduction of a new species

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Speaker 1: can lead to massive problems. In nineteen sixty six, a

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Speaker 1: young boy who was vacationing in Hawaii decided to take

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Speaker 1: a few of the giant land snails that live there

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Speaker 1: back to his home in Miami to keep them as

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Speaker 1: pets in the family garden. The snails, which can grow

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Speaker 1: larger than the size of baseballs, reproduced quickly. They soon

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Speaker 1: began to cause economic damage to local farms, and they

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Speaker 1: also carried dangerous parasites slithering along at quite literally a

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Speaker 1: snail's pace. They certainly don't look menacing, but for the

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Speaker 1: Florida Department of Agriculture, this is a horror movie. The

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Speaker 1: problem with these things They love just about anything that

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Speaker 1: grows in Florida. The eradication effort, which used poisons, took

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Speaker 1: ten years and cost over a million dollars, but despite

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Speaker 1: all the work, the snail population eventually bounced back. In

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Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, the Florida Department of Agriculture went door to

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Speaker 1: door searching for the snails. They found a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousands, with two properties alone harboring seven hundred of

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Speaker 1: the critters. With other invasive species, the measures have been

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Speaker 1: even more dramatic. In the nineteen fifties, Australia tried to

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Speaker 1: exterminate an escalating population of European rabbits that had been

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Speaker 1: introduced a century earlier by an English settler. Their solution

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Speaker 1: was to release rabbits carrying a deadly Mixoma virus. It

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Speaker 1: killed millions of rabbits across Australia, but it didn't solve

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Speaker 1: the problem. There are hundreds of invasive species that people

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Speaker 1: would like to be rid of, zebra muscles in the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes, silver carp in the Missouri River, kudzuweed, and

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Speaker 1: Georgia burmese pythons in the Everglades. But the species that

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Speaker 1: cause the most harm to humans aren't recent invaders. They're

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Speaker 1: indigenous mosquitoes that spread malaria in Africa. My name is

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Speaker 1: Diane Worth. I'm on the faculty at the Harvard chan

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Speaker 1: School of Public Health. I work on malaria. Diane is

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Speaker 1: also a colleague of mine at the Broad Institute, and

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Speaker 1: she studied malaria for over thirty five years. Malaria starts

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Speaker 1: as a fever and chills. It has nondescript symptoms in

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Speaker 1: the early stages, but then as the disease progresses, people

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Speaker 1: can go into a coma, they get very sick, and

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Speaker 1: it spreads by mosquitoes. That's right. The disease is transmitted

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Speaker 1: by the anopling mosquito in Africa. That's Avelis Gambia, a

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Speaker 1: mosquito that's very efficient at transmitting malaria. The world has

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Speaker 1: tried to eradicate malaria once before, in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the last century, when they had DDT and chloroquin DDT

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Speaker 1: to kill mosquitos and chloroquin to treat infected people, and

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Speaker 1: that effort did lead to some successes. Malaria was eated

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Speaker 1: from Italy, from most of Southern Europe, from the United

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Speaker 1: States by a combination of those techniques and environmental activities,

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Speaker 1: including putting oil on the top of water so it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be environmentally allowed now, but was done in the

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Speaker 1: Tennessee Valley here in the United States in the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: And that effort failed in most of the world, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, that effort really never included Sub Saharan Africa,

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Speaker 1: because the experts at the time concluded that in Sub

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Speaker 1: Saharan Africa, transmission was so intense that no effort could

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Speaker 1: bring it under control. How are we doing in the

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Speaker 1: elimination of malaria today. I think what's happened in the

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Speaker 1: last decade is two things. One, there's been an overall

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Speaker 1: reduction in the number of cases of malaria through increased

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Speaker 1: distribution of bednets, better diagnostics, better use of treatment drugs.

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Speaker 1: We've dropped cases by forty percent worldwide and deaths by

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Speaker 1: about fifty percent worldwide. The other part of the story

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Speaker 1: is really sub Saharan Africa, where progress has slowed and

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Speaker 1: in many cases reversed. For example, Nigeria has twenty five

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Speaker 1: percent of all of the malaria in the world, and

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Speaker 1: ten countries make up seventy percent of the burden of

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Speaker 1: malaria worldwide. All of these countries in Africa, progress using

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Speaker 1: our standard tools has stalled. In those countries. We're going

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Speaker 1: to need innovation in order to actually continue the downward

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Speaker 1: trend and in fact, in some cases reverse what appears

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Speaker 1: to be a rebound in the number of cases. The

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Speaker 1: mosquitoes are rebounding in port because they've evolved resistance to

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Speaker 1: overcome traditional methods of control. The major insecticide that we

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Speaker 1: use to kill mosquitos. There's resistance in almost all mosquito populations,

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Speaker 1: and so we anticipate that the need to have new

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Speaker 1: insecticides is urgent, and without that we're unlikely to reach

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Speaker 1: to eradication girls, particularly in sub Saharan Africa. So scientists

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Speaker 1: are constantly imagining new solutions to save ecosystems and to

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Speaker 1: save human lives. Could gene drives be the answer? Chapter

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Speaker 1: two selfish genes? Instead of deploying poisons and viruses, what

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Speaker 1: if we could just genetically reprogram pests to slow or

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Speaker 1: even stop their reproduction. The strategy may sound simple, but

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Speaker 1: it has a gaping hole. The logic of natural selection

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Speaker 1: means the disadvantageous genes, ones that cause an organism to

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Speaker 1: produce fewer offspring, should die out. Ah, But there's a

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Speaker 1: loophole in theory. A gene could spread into population even

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Speaker 1: if it hurts an organism's reproduction, if it could find

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Speaker 1: a way to ensure that it gets inherited by most

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Speaker 1: of the offspring. Could nature actually do that? Nature does

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Speaker 1: such things often again, evolutionary ecologist Jim Collins well known

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Speaker 1: example is a driving y chromosome in some species of mice,

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Speaker 1: which converts a population into all males, and of course

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Speaker 1: that population then would go extinct. It's one of those

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Speaker 1: very interesting quirks of evolution in which you wind up

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Speaker 1: with populations of all males basically blinking out of existence,

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Speaker 1: and so you get one group can be converted into males,

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Speaker 1: it goes extinct, but there are other groups that still

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Speaker 1: have males and females and they'll continue on. When we

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Speaker 1: think of how genes are passed on, we usually think

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Speaker 1: about the laws of Mendelian inheritance, first recognized by Gregor Mendel,

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Speaker 1: a friar and scientist who studied pea plants in the

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Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds. Mendel figured out that in sexually reproducing species,

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Speaker 1: each individual has two copies of each gene, one from

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Speaker 1: their mother, one from their father. They pass on one

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Speaker 1: of those two copies to each child, with the two

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Speaker 1: copies each having a fifty fifty chance of being passed on.

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Speaker 1: For example, imagine a gene that determines the sex of

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Speaker 1: has males and females in it, a baby would be

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Speaker 1: predicted to be a male fifty percent of the time

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Speaker 1: female fifty percent of the time. But what if a

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Speaker 1: gene naturally evolved that could cheat, could greedily stack the

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Speaker 1: deck so that it gets inherited sixty eighty percent or

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Speaker 1: even a hundred percent of the time, biologists referred to

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Speaker 1: such selfish behavior as a gene drive. Party gene drive

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Speaker 1: could do is changed that ratio as far as any

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Speaker 1: particular genetic trade is concerned. So what was the first

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Speaker 1: time anybody noticed the existence of a natural gene drive?

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Speaker 1: They were described the very late eighteen hundreds, very early

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, so it's been known for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Over the twentieth century, scientists discovered a vast array of

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Speaker 1: gene drives in nature, but it was only in the

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Speaker 1: beginning of this century that they began to seriously think

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Speaker 1: about how they might harness the power of gene drives.

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Speaker 1: Austin Burt was the one who laid out in principle

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Speaker 1: the idea that if there were a way to control

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Speaker 1: this natural process, then indeed you would have in your

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Speaker 1: My name is Austin Burt, and I'm a professor of

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Speaker 1: evolutionary genetics here at Imperial College, London. Austin's an expert

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Speaker 1: in selfish genes, genes that cheat mandilion inheritance. Things that

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Speaker 1: show gene drive or similar sorts of behavior, and all

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Speaker 1: the other sorts of weird and wonderful genes out there

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Speaker 1: are able to spread through populations not because they increase

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Speaker 1: the survival or reproduction of the organism, but because they're

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Speaker 1: distorting transmission to their own advantage. He became very interested

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Speaker 1: in using gene drives for the benefit of public health. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, in ades mosquitoes, which is the factor for

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Speaker 1: a yellow fever and dany, there is an actually occurring

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Speaker 1: selfish element on the Y chromosome, the male determining part

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Speaker 1: of the genome, that gets into five percent or so

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Speaker 1: of the progeny, and so it has the potential then

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Speaker 1: to spread through a population, and as it does so,

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Speaker 1: distort the sex ratio of the population to be more

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Speaker 1: and more male biased. That's worth reiterating. A naturally occurring

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Speaker 1: gene drive in mosquitoes turn ninety five percent of the

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Speaker 1: male and that caught people's attention. Because male mosquitoes don't

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Speaker 1: bite people, they don't transmit the disease, and so the

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Speaker 1: idea was that you might be able to use that

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Speaker 1: sort of elopment to control the diseases spread by those

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Speaker 1: mosquitoes diseases like malaria. Unfortunately, gene drives in animals tend

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Speaker 1: to use specialized tricks, many of which still aren't fully understood.

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Speaker 1: The best gene drive to engineer would be based on

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Speaker 1: simple principles, and you'd most likely find them in simple organisms.

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Speaker 1: As luck would have it, That's what Austin studied. My

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Speaker 1: first grant was to study the selfish genetic elements of yeasts.

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Speaker 1: The best known gene drive in yeast exploits the fact

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Speaker 1: that chromosomes come in pairs. So here's the trick. The

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Speaker 1: gene drive occurs at a specific spot on a specific chromosome,

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Speaker 1: and it encodes the instructions for an enzyme called a

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Speaker 1: homing endonuclease. The sole purpose of that enzyme is to

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Speaker 1: make a cut at the exact same spot on any

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Speaker 1: other copy of the chromosome that doesn't already have the

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Speaker 1: gene drive. When a cell detects that cut, it fills

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Speaker 1: it in with the genetic information from the matching spot

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Speaker 1: on the uncut chromosome, and presto chain show the cell

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Speaker 1: inserts a copy of the gene drive into that spot

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Speaker 1: on the chromosome. When I was reading about this, I thought, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so if that was actually then we could instead use

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Speaker 1: that same sort of approach to change them to recognize

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Speaker 1: mosquito sequences and then using that to knock out a

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Speaker 1: gene that's essential for the survival or reproduction of the mosquito,

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Speaker 1: and so suppress the population that way. In two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three, Austin published a paper in the Proceedings of

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Speaker 1: the Royal Society describing this brilliant idea. In principle, gene

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Speaker 1: drives could be used to suppress a population, say decreasing

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Speaker 1: the fertility of mosquitos, or to alter a population, say

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Speaker 1: adding a gene that would prevent the malaria parasite from

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Speaker 1: growing in the mosquito. But there was one hitch, the

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Speaker 1: homing end. The nuclease in yeast recognizes only one specific

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Speaker 1: DNA sequence. To engineer new gene drives, you'd need to

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Speaker 1: be able to reprogram them to recognize different sequences. It

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Speaker 1: was difficult to get the enzymes to be recognized new

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Speaker 1: sequences to recognize mosquito sequences as opposed to E sequences,

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Speaker 1: It would take another ten years before the solution emerged.

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Speaker 1: It turned out to involve another system that accomplished the

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Speaker 1: same thing in a very different way. The system was

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Speaker 1: called Crisper. Chapter three, A Shining, Marvelous Future. Crisper is

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Speaker 1: a kind of immune system that bacteria used to protect

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Speaker 1: themselves against viruses. Crisper uses an enzyme to cut the

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Speaker 1: virus's DNA. But what's amazing is that the enzyme doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a fixed target. It's programmable. The bacteria create instructions

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Speaker 1: based on past viral infections. The Crisper enzyme uses these

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Speaker 1: instructions to search for matching the A sequence and then

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Speaker 1: cuts it. It took twenty years and dozens of scientists

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Speaker 1: around the world to understand exactly how Crisper works, but

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Speaker 1: once they did, scientists figured out how to use its

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Speaker 1: ability to target DNA sequences to create a technology to

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Speaker 1: edit the genetic code inside living cells, from yeast to humans.

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Speaker 1: Genome editing has made a huge splash, including the award

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Speaker 1: of Nobel Prize last month to two scientists for their

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Speaker 1: work on Crisper. Crisper has so many potential applications. Medical

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Speaker 1: scientists realized that it held the prospect of fixing mutations

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Speaker 1: in patients with severe diseases, and Austin Bert realized that

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Speaker 1: this new technology could turn his idea of gene drives

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Speaker 1: from dream into practical reality. Austin had been working for

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Speaker 1: the last decade trying to engineer existing gene drives from

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Speaker 1: organisms like yeast, and that was just a hideously complicated

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Speaker 1: and difficult endeavor that wasn't getting all that far. Crisper

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Speaker 1: was the perfect tool for enabling gene drive. This is

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Speaker 1: biologist Kevin Esfeld, who was the first person to propose

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Speaker 1: a specific design for a Crisper based gene drive. I'm

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Speaker 1: an assistant professor at the MIT Media Lab, where I

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Speaker 1: direct the Sculpting Evolution Group, and our job is to

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Speaker 1: cultivate wisdom through ecological and evolutionary engineering. Kevin's interest in

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Speaker 1: sculpting evolutions started early when he read Michael Crichton's nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety novel Jurassic Park. The mere notion that we might

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Speaker 1: be able to resurrect dinosaurs through genetic engineering was just

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Speaker 1: mind boggling. And even more so, there's this notion at

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Speaker 1: the park was a synthetic ecosystem built to host creatures

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Speaker 1: that live nowhere else us in the world. That's an

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Speaker 1: incredible idea that we can potentially make our own ecosystems.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when your address park? Oh, God,

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Speaker 1: probably eight or nine. At a very young age, you

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Speaker 1: might say, I knew what I wanted to do with

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Speaker 1: my life. I wanted to understand how genetics made organisms

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Speaker 1: and ecosystems the way they are, and I was interested

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Speaker 1: in tinkering with them in order to better understand the

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Speaker 1: answer to that question. Kevin remembers the moment when it

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Speaker 1: dawned on him that Crisper would make it practical to

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Speaker 1: engineer gene drives. He immediately read all of Austin's papers.

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Speaker 1: The first day was purelation, thinking about all the amazing

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Speaker 1: things you could do. You were thinking that applications already.

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Speaker 1: One is human health, things like malarias just a semiasis dangey.

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Speaker 1: It's spread by mosquito, lime disease, tick born illness, as mosquito,

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Speaker 1: boorn illness, as parasites, you name it. Number two is

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Speaker 1: environmental preservation, and then there's agriculture. Because instead of spraying

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Speaker 1: nasty poisons on ours in order to get rid of

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Speaker 1: the pests that eat them, how about we program the

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Speaker 1: pests to dislike the taste. This is potentially a much

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Speaker 1: more elegant way of solving ecological problems than poisons and bulldozers.

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Speaker 1: In short, suppression gene drives aimed at suppressing the population

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Speaker 1: of a dangerous or invasive species could provide a general

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Speaker 1: approach to conquer terrible parasites and restore natural environments. To

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Speaker 1: say that Kevin was excited would be an understatement. The

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Speaker 1: possibilities of a shining, marvelous future were just exploding all

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Speaker 1: around me like fireworks. Kevin published his proposal about how

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Speaker 1: to build a crisper based gene drive in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Within a year, scientific papers began reporting functioning gene drives,

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Speaker 1: first in yeast, then fruit flies, and then in mosquitoes.

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Speaker 1: Beyond Kevin's favorite applications, some people are thinking about gene

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Speaker 1: drives as a way to help nate sure adapt rapidly

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Speaker 1: to some of the devastating effects of climate change. My

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Speaker 1: name's Natalie Chefler. I'm a molecular biologist, and I recently

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Speaker 1: founded an initiative called Editing Nature, which tries to integrate

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Speaker 1: diverse worldviews and perspectives to steer responsible development of genetic

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Speaker 1: technologies for the environment. Natalie first became interested in gene

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Speaker 1: drives because she was frustrated with the methods that were

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Speaker 1: being used to get rid of specific invasive species. In Canada,

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Speaker 1: where Natalie's from ash trees were disappearing at a frightening

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Speaker 1: pace because they were being destroyed by invasive beetles originally

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Speaker 1: from Asia. Ecologists had started considering ways to get rid

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Speaker 1: of these beetles, and they pitched the idea of importing

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Speaker 1: Russian wasps to prey on the Asian beetles. I was like,

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Speaker 1: are you kidding me? This doesn't make Eddie sense and

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Speaker 1: so and so I just started thinking that there must

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Speaker 1: be bio tech options. That very year, Kevin Esvelt and

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Speaker 1: his group had published reports on using crisper based gene

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Speaker 1: drives to change wild species. And that was sort of

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Speaker 1: the Aha moment where I thought, Okay, so people are

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Speaker 1: looking at using genetic engineering to alter wild species. This

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Speaker 1: is really exciting because it could provide a solution for

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Speaker 1: these really huge challenges that we're facing. Among those challenges,

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Speaker 1: Natalie points to what's happening to coral reefs. So we're

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Speaker 1: seeing a huge decline in coral reef health right now,

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Speaker 1: in large part because ocean temperatures are rising. Oceans are

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Speaker 1: becoming more acidic and that's causing a lot of stress

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Speaker 1: to the coral. It's happening really quickly and pretty extensively.

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Speaker 1: White of coral reefs matter. I always see them as

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Speaker 1: it was like the forests of the sea. So they

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Speaker 1: create huge amount of habitat for many marine fish. Many

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Speaker 1: people's livelihoods depend on the fish that depend on coral reef,

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Speaker 1: and so there's been estimates in the trillions and trillions

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Speaker 1: of dollars that would be lost if the coral were

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Speaker 1: to continue to decline at the rates that they do,

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Speaker 1: So losing all the coral would be like losing all

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Speaker 1: the forests in a way. That's somehow I think about it.

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Speaker 1: In contrast to suppression gene drives, Natalie thinks that alteration

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Speaker 1: gene drives, ones that would spread beneficial genes throughout a population,

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Speaker 1: could make some coals more resilient to climate change. And

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Speaker 1: there is research starting to come out showing that certain

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Speaker 1: mutations and certain genes can be protective against things like

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Speaker 1: acidification or high temperatures, or allow the coral to dat better.

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Speaker 1: And so the idea would be that you could use

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Speaker 1: crisper gene editing to rewrite the genome of a coral

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Speaker 1: to be able to express these resiliency inducing genes. If

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Speaker 1: you were to introduce a gene drive as well, then

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Speaker 1: that would also allow you to release into the wild,

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Speaker 1: into the ocean and allow that to spread. Chapter four

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Speaker 1: anopolies Gambii. Of all the possible uses of gene drives,

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Speaker 1: none is more compelling than Austin Bird's original idea of

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Speaker 1: controlling the spread of malaria. According to the World's Health Organization,

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Speaker 1: more than four hundred thousand people die from malaria each year.

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Speaker 1: That's close to one death every minute. Most are children

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Speaker 1: under five. Austin Bird ended up creating Target Malaria, a

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Speaker 1: not for profit research collaboration with a mission of developing

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Speaker 1: and sharing genetic technologies to help stop the spread of

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Speaker 1: malaria in Sub Saharan Africa. Target Malaria is targeting several

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Speaker 1: mosquito species, including Anaphly's gambii, the mosquito responsible for most

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Speaker 1: malaria cases in Sub Saharan Africa, which malaria expert Diane

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Speaker 1: Worth described earlier. Among many possible designs, a simple approach

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Speaker 1: would be to create a pression gene drive that causes

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Speaker 1: mosquitos to produce mostly male offspring. The strategy is actually

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Speaker 1: a two fer. First, as Austin Burt noted earlier, male

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Speaker 1: mosquitoes don't bite people, so they can't transmit malaria. Second,

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Speaker 1: the lopsided sex ratio should cause of the population to

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Speaker 1: dramatically crash and perhaps be eliminated in some areas. Target

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Speaker 1: Malaria is headquartered in the UK, where Austin works, but

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Speaker 1: it has research teams in many places, including Mali, Uganda

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Speaker 1: and Burkina Fossio. I spoke via Skype with one of

430
00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:52,570
Speaker 1: Target Malaria's lead researchers in Burkina Fassio. My name is

431
00:31:54,930 --> 00:32:00,250
Speaker 1: on A medical entomologist, Doctor Abdulaye Diabate, was born and

432
00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:04,090
Speaker 1: raised in a rural area of southwest Burkina Fassio, and

433
00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:08,250
Speaker 1: he is intimately familiar with the disease, the leading cause

434
00:32:08,290 --> 00:32:11,170
Speaker 1: of all There is absolutely no doubt about that this

435
00:32:11,250 --> 00:32:14,330
Speaker 1: is a really very big issue for us, as myself

436
00:32:14,370 --> 00:32:18,490
Speaker 1: as a kid experienced several episodes of malaria. All my

437
00:32:18,490 --> 00:32:22,930
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters cinematically, every single one got malaria. If

438
00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:26,930
Speaker 1: you don't have a real treatment right away, it can

439
00:32:27,130 --> 00:32:30,970
Speaker 1: quickly need to get and even remember myself when I

440
00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:34,370
Speaker 1: was still a kid long time ago, I have stuck her,

441
00:32:34,410 --> 00:32:37,650
Speaker 1: you know, from malaria, and I could really see from

442
00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:40,050
Speaker 1: the eyes of my parents that they were really very scared,

443
00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:42,650
Speaker 1: but because they knew that anytime they could lose me.

444
00:32:43,290 --> 00:32:46,450
Speaker 1: Fortunately I made it through. But as a parent today

445
00:32:46,530 --> 00:32:50,690
Speaker 1: I have the same experiencing of my kids. Abdulas dedicated

446
00:32:50,770 --> 00:32:54,010
Speaker 1: his life to malaria prevention. He did his PhD in

447
00:32:54,090 --> 00:32:58,130
Speaker 1: France and postdoctoral research at the US National Institutes of

448
00:32:58,210 --> 00:33:03,290
Speaker 1: Health before returning to Burkina Fossil. I felt really that

449
00:33:03,330 --> 00:33:05,690
Speaker 1: I came to the US, you know, to learn, and

450
00:33:05,730 --> 00:33:07,530
Speaker 1: I have to come back home, you know, to give

451
00:33:07,570 --> 00:33:10,210
Speaker 1: back to my community and as this is really my

452
00:33:10,290 --> 00:33:12,850
Speaker 1: dream and my hope that I can come up to

453
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,810
Speaker 1: be something that can really help not only but the

454
00:33:16,010 --> 00:33:18,650
Speaker 1: entire Africa to make sure that we can get wead

455
00:33:19,050 --> 00:33:23,090
Speaker 1: once for all of malaria. When he first returned home,

456
00:33:23,170 --> 00:33:27,130
Speaker 1: the most promising method of malaria eradication was to target

457
00:33:27,210 --> 00:33:33,210
Speaker 1: mosquitoes by using insecticide treated nets, and that tool was

458
00:33:33,210 --> 00:33:38,330
Speaker 1: pretty successful, at least initially. We were really really excited,

459
00:33:38,450 --> 00:33:40,290
Speaker 1: you know when we saw the data, because we had

460
00:33:40,290 --> 00:33:43,410
Speaker 1: a really fantastic data showing that because a clear impact

461
00:33:43,530 --> 00:33:47,810
Speaker 1: on a little transmission. But soon researchers started to see

462
00:33:47,850 --> 00:33:52,170
Speaker 1: problems with the method we farted, you know, to see insecitary.

463
00:33:52,210 --> 00:33:54,850
Speaker 1: This sounds you know, coming in and we wished a

464
00:33:54,930 --> 00:33:58,370
Speaker 1: point where most of those are no longer susceptible. As

465
00:33:58,370 --> 00:34:01,970
Speaker 1: he began desperately looking for new tools, he came across

466
00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:05,450
Speaker 1: the gene drive proposal from Austin Bird and Target Malaria

467
00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:09,290
Speaker 1: and began working with the team. My hope really is

468
00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:11,490
Speaker 1: that we are able, you know, to come up with

469
00:34:11,650 --> 00:34:15,730
Speaker 1: some really good intervention tool that concident and then have

470
00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:19,610
Speaker 1: a really really good impact on malaria. Gooden in Africa.

471
00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:22,730
Speaker 1: Target Malaria is still five to ten years away from

472
00:34:22,770 --> 00:34:25,930
Speaker 1: testing an actual gene drive in the field, but the

473
00:34:26,050 --> 00:34:31,890
Speaker 1: excitement is palpable. Controlling malaria in Africa saving four hundred

474
00:34:32,010 --> 00:34:34,970
Speaker 1: thousand lives a year would be a big, big deal.

475
00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:39,370
Speaker 1: A gene drives clearly work in the lab, So what

476
00:34:39,410 --> 00:34:43,050
Speaker 1: are people waiting for? Why aren't we just releasing gene

477
00:34:43,130 --> 00:34:47,130
Speaker 1: drives against mosquitoes and lots of other targets as well?

478
00:34:48,290 --> 00:34:55,930
Speaker 1: What could possibly go wrong? Chapter five? What could possibly

479
00:34:55,970 --> 00:35:00,930
Speaker 1: go wrong? In thinking about what could go wrong, many

480
00:35:00,970 --> 00:35:08,330
Speaker 1: scientists use terms like unintended consequences, molecular biologist Natalie Koefler, Well,

481
00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:12,530
Speaker 1: she puts it differently. Okay, So people are looking at

482
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:17,410
Speaker 1: using genetic engineering to alter wild species. This is really exciting,

483
00:35:17,770 --> 00:35:20,890
Speaker 1: huge challenges that we're facing, and at the same time,

484
00:35:21,370 --> 00:35:23,650
Speaker 1: literally in the same breath, I was also just like,

485
00:35:24,250 --> 00:35:28,810
Speaker 1: holy crap, if this isn't used properly, this could be

486
00:35:29,170 --> 00:35:33,570
Speaker 1: really damaging to our planet. To prevent that, Natalie founded

487
00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:38,370
Speaker 1: an organization called the Editing Nature Initiative. For his part,

488
00:35:38,730 --> 00:35:42,930
Speaker 1: Kevin Esfeld came to a similar realization, although it took

489
00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:46,290
Speaker 1: him just a little bit longer. Soon after his day

490
00:35:46,290 --> 00:35:50,410
Speaker 1: of euphoria, his vision of a shining, marvelous future with

491
00:35:50,570 --> 00:35:57,890
Speaker 1: fireworks exploding, Kevin says he fell into utter despair, total paranoia,

492
00:35:58,010 --> 00:36:03,330
Speaker 1: of dark visions of horrible, horrific misuse and weaponization. What

493
00:36:03,490 --> 00:36:07,970
Speaker 1: worries Kevin, Natalie and others is the gene drives actually

494
00:36:08,050 --> 00:36:11,770
Speaker 1: might be so easy to make and work so well

495
00:36:12,370 --> 00:36:16,410
Speaker 1: that things might get out of hand, Which means if

496
00:36:16,410 --> 00:36:19,970
Speaker 1: a crisper based gene drive system will spread in the wild,

497
00:36:20,610 --> 00:36:23,770
Speaker 1: probably the most populations of that species that are connected

498
00:36:23,770 --> 00:36:26,090
Speaker 1: by any kind of gene flow, then that means that

499
00:36:26,410 --> 00:36:33,450
Speaker 1: individual people could potentially single handedly edit entire species. Suppose

500
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:36,130
Speaker 1: you release a gene drive and so the rat population

501
00:36:36,170 --> 00:36:39,930
Speaker 1: of a remote Pacific island. How can you be sure

502
00:36:40,570 --> 00:36:43,250
Speaker 1: that it won't actually get off the island? And the

503
00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:45,650
Speaker 1: rodents got there in the first place, rights we should

504
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:48,290
Speaker 1: have safely assume that they can also get off. If

505
00:36:48,330 --> 00:36:51,010
Speaker 1: one of those rodents stows away on a ship, like

506
00:36:51,090 --> 00:36:54,410
Speaker 1: the ones that stowed away on Captain Cook's ship, It's

507
00:36:54,450 --> 00:36:57,450
Speaker 1: possible that the gene drive could eventually spread throughout the

508
00:36:57,610 --> 00:37:02,450
Speaker 1: entire species of black rats around the world. Rats are

509
00:37:02,450 --> 00:37:06,250
Speaker 1: invasive species in some places, but they're an important part

510
00:37:06,250 --> 00:37:11,610
Speaker 1: of the ecosystem elsewhere. So what happens if you unintentionally alter, suppress,

511
00:37:12,290 --> 00:37:16,450
Speaker 1: or in the worst case, wipe out a species, I

512
00:37:16,490 --> 00:37:20,250
Speaker 1: asked evolutionary ecologist Jim Collins, who co chaired the US

513
00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:24,970
Speaker 1: National Academy of Science study published in twenty sixteen. You

514
00:37:25,130 --> 00:37:28,370
Speaker 1: do not want to be just reaching into ecosystems and

515
00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:34,450
Speaker 1: arbitrarily removing species. Humanity has done lots of that, and

516
00:37:34,490 --> 00:37:39,850
Speaker 1: there have been these unintended consequences that are not good.

517
00:37:39,930 --> 00:37:42,810
Speaker 1: Can you give this a couple examples of that. There

518
00:37:42,810 --> 00:37:45,410
Speaker 1: are any number of instances in which we've we've removed

519
00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:49,090
Speaker 1: top predators, for example, in ocean systems in which top

520
00:37:49,090 --> 00:37:51,930
Speaker 1: predators have been fished out, and then you can wind

521
00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:57,210
Speaker 1: up with the ecosystem that is greatly diminished. It's largely

522
00:37:57,930 --> 00:38:00,850
Speaker 1: algae and jellyfishes by the time you've taken off the

523
00:38:00,890 --> 00:38:04,610
Speaker 1: top predators in the system. What about unintentionally wiping out

524
00:38:04,610 --> 00:38:09,250
Speaker 1: the mosquito species that carry malaria? Could that disrupt den

525
00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:13,170
Speaker 1: eco system? Well, there are plenty of things that eat mosquitoes,

526
00:38:13,490 --> 00:38:18,650
Speaker 1: and so hypothetically, yes, there could be effects. Do we

527
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:23,570
Speaker 1: know exactly what they are yet? No. Austin Bird, who

528
00:38:23,610 --> 00:38:27,170
Speaker 1: founded Target Malaria, has thought a lot about the effects

529
00:38:27,170 --> 00:38:32,330
Speaker 1: of suppressing mosquito populations. He's asked, are mosquitoes a keystone

530
00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:37,610
Speaker 1: species on which other organisms depend? According to Austin, experts

531
00:38:37,690 --> 00:38:41,810
Speaker 1: think not predators that eat mosquitoes, who appear to eat

532
00:38:41,890 --> 00:38:47,170
Speaker 1: anyat flying insects. He's also asked, if mosquitoes disappeared from

533
00:38:47,170 --> 00:38:51,250
Speaker 1: a region, would an insect transmitting an even worse disease

534
00:38:51,330 --> 00:38:55,650
Speaker 1: take its place. Well, it's hard to imagine, because mosquitoes

535
00:38:55,650 --> 00:39:01,250
Speaker 1: and malaria are amongst humanity's worst scourges. Still, Austin says

536
00:39:01,530 --> 00:39:05,210
Speaker 1: we should take nothing for granted, and mosquitoes are a

537
00:39:05,290 --> 00:39:09,090
Speaker 1: relatively easy case. You'd have to answer the same question

538
00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:14,290
Speaker 1: for every possible use of gene drives. But as Jim

539
00:39:14,330 --> 00:39:21,170
Speaker 1: Collins's National Academy report notes, there's another problem. Beyond unintended consequences,

540
00:39:21,490 --> 00:39:26,010
Speaker 1: there's the disturbing possibility that someone might deliberately use gene

541
00:39:26,050 --> 00:39:31,250
Speaker 1: drives to cause harm. It could be used maliciously. A

542
00:39:31,290 --> 00:39:35,650
Speaker 1: bad actor could decide to try to develop a gene

543
00:39:35,690 --> 00:39:40,490
Speaker 1: drive system that might target some part of the food

544
00:39:40,530 --> 00:39:46,730
Speaker 1: supply in a country. The individual could decide to introduce traits,

545
00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:50,290
Speaker 1: undesirable traits, and other kinds of organisms and cause lots

546
00:39:50,290 --> 00:39:53,530
Speaker 1: of mischief. What would be the most likely targets for

547
00:39:53,570 --> 00:39:59,810
Speaker 1: it Organisms that reproduce sexually, that have a relatively short

548
00:39:59,850 --> 00:40:04,450
Speaker 1: generation time. You'd want this thing to turn over pretty quickly,

549
00:40:04,930 --> 00:40:07,290
Speaker 1: so you're probably not going to use a gene drive

550
00:40:07,330 --> 00:40:14,130
Speaker 1: system for long lived animals larger vertebrates, let's say cattle,

551
00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:20,490
Speaker 1: But for smaller organisms that turn over pretty quickly, maybe poultry,

552
00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:23,890
Speaker 1: you might be able to think about using something like

553
00:40:23,890 --> 00:40:27,930
Speaker 1: a gene drive system. In short, Jim says, a bad

554
00:40:27,970 --> 00:40:31,810
Speaker 1: actor might try to use gene drives as a bioweapon

555
00:40:32,170 --> 00:40:40,970
Speaker 1: to devastate agriculture in a country. Chapter six, daisy chains.

556
00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:45,730
Speaker 1: As Kevin s Field thought more, he stumbled across a

557
00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:49,730
Speaker 1: big problem with his initial design for gene drives. It

558
00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:53,410
Speaker 1: would be too risky even to run field trials to

559
00:40:53,410 --> 00:40:59,210
Speaker 1: test the technology. Why because if even a single organism

560
00:40:59,490 --> 00:41:02,610
Speaker 1: escaped from the test area, well, the gene drive might

561
00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:06,850
Speaker 1: invade the entire species. The problem with the full power

562
00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:09,130
Speaker 1: version is it has everything it needs to copy it

563
00:41:09,170 --> 00:41:12,370
Speaker 1: self forever, in every generation. So Kevin got to work

564
00:41:12,570 --> 00:41:18,330
Speaker 1: designing gene drives that couldn't spread forever self exhausting gene drives.

565
00:41:19,050 --> 00:41:23,650
Speaker 1: He designs something he named a daisy drive. Every link

566
00:41:23,650 --> 00:41:26,370
Speaker 1: in this daisy chain is the equivalent of like one

567
00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:31,810
Speaker 1: gallon of genetic fuel. And you burn genetic fuel over generations,

568
00:41:31,850 --> 00:41:35,490
Speaker 1: and when you run out, it stops. Daisy drives involve

569
00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:41,770
Speaker 1: a chain of genetic elements, say abcde, each inserted into

570
00:41:41,770 --> 00:41:45,730
Speaker 1: a different chromosome. A copies B to make sure it's

571
00:41:45,730 --> 00:41:50,730
Speaker 1: inherited by all the offspring. B copies C, see copies dance,

572
00:41:50,730 --> 00:41:56,410
Speaker 1: so on. But nothing's driving A. It's inherited by only

573
00:41:56,530 --> 00:42:01,170
Speaker 1: half the offspring. So when a is lost, there's nothing

574
00:42:01,170 --> 00:42:05,770
Speaker 1: copying B, so it's eventually lost, and so on. When

575
00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:09,610
Speaker 1: you introduce a daisy chain into a large population, it

576
00:42:09,690 --> 00:42:13,850
Speaker 1: should eventually peter out. And Kevin has more tricks up

577
00:42:13,850 --> 00:42:17,570
Speaker 1: his sleeve. He's designed a gene drive that's engineered not

578
00:42:17,650 --> 00:42:21,410
Speaker 1: to spread beyond the geographical area in which you released it.

579
00:42:22,170 --> 00:42:26,250
Speaker 1: He calls it a threshold drive. It mimics one of

580
00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:30,370
Speaker 1: the ways that reproductive barriers arise in the wild by

581
00:42:30,450 --> 00:42:36,450
Speaker 1: using genetic rearrangements to make interbreeding less efficient. Kevin thinks

582
00:42:36,450 --> 00:42:39,210
Speaker 1: of these tricks will make it possible to do much

583
00:42:39,330 --> 00:42:44,570
Speaker 1: safer field trials. But still, what if a drive spreads

584
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:49,610
Speaker 1: despite these safety features. Well, Kevin says, you can always

585
00:42:49,610 --> 00:42:52,770
Speaker 1: create a new gene drive to spread and overrite the

586
00:42:52,810 --> 00:42:57,570
Speaker 1: first one. He calls it a restoration drive. Now a

587
00:42:57,570 --> 00:42:59,530
Speaker 1: lot of people say, wait a minute, you can't rely

588
00:42:59,610 --> 00:43:03,410
Speaker 1: on the same technology that just went wrong. But hold

589
00:43:03,450 --> 00:43:05,930
Speaker 1: on a second. If the problem is what we did

590
00:43:05,970 --> 00:43:10,770
Speaker 1: to the species, then using another method that successfully spread

591
00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:14,010
Speaker 1: a change to the whole species to successfully spread another

592
00:43:14,090 --> 00:43:18,730
Speaker 1: change to the whole species is perfectly valid engineering. Even

593
00:43:18,770 --> 00:43:23,290
Speaker 1: as Kevin works to devise solutions daisy drives threshold drives,

594
00:43:23,410 --> 00:43:28,330
Speaker 1: restoration drives. He knows he can't imagine everything. I still

595
00:43:28,370 --> 00:43:30,970
Speaker 1: assume that evolution is cleverer than we are. It's going

596
00:43:31,010 --> 00:43:33,490
Speaker 1: to have some trick up at sleeve. This is like

597
00:43:33,810 --> 00:43:38,250
Speaker 1: you are fighting the tide, or you're fighting a blind,

598
00:43:38,330 --> 00:43:41,810
Speaker 1: idiot alien god. To use my preferred conception of what

599
00:43:41,850 --> 00:43:45,890
Speaker 1: evolution really is. It's like the story that inspired Kevin

600
00:43:45,930 --> 00:43:50,610
Speaker 1: to go into biotechnology. Jurassic Park in the classic nineteen

601
00:43:50,690 --> 00:43:54,570
Speaker 1: ninety three film, Doctor Ian Malcolm played by Jeff Goldblum,

602
00:43:55,010 --> 00:43:59,730
Speaker 1: is a mathematician who specializes in chaos theory. Early in

603
00:43:59,730 --> 00:44:03,370
Speaker 1: the film, he presciently calls out the park designers for

604
00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:07,770
Speaker 1: the hubris in thinking they can control the dinosaur population.

605
00:44:09,210 --> 00:44:12,330
Speaker 1: Know they're all female. We control their chromosomes. It's really

606
00:44:12,370 --> 00:44:16,010
Speaker 1: not that difficult, John. The kind of control your attempting

607
00:44:16,130 --> 00:44:19,370
Speaker 1: is it's not possible. As if there's one thing the

608
00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:23,090
Speaker 1: history of evolution has tossed that life will not be contained.

609
00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:25,770
Speaker 1: Life breaks free, It expands to new territories, and it

610
00:44:25,810 --> 00:44:31,610
Speaker 1: crashes through barriers painfully, maybe even dangerously. But no, there

611
00:44:31,610 --> 00:44:35,450
Speaker 1: it is. You're implying that a group composed entirely of

612
00:44:35,490 --> 00:44:40,450
Speaker 1: female animals, will breed. No, I'm simply saying that life

613
00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:47,410
Speaker 1: finds a way, wife finds a way. If Kevin knows

614
00:44:47,730 --> 00:44:50,970
Speaker 1: if we want the potential benefits that gene drives offer,

615
00:44:51,770 --> 00:44:54,090
Speaker 1: we have to work hard to be sure that life

616
00:44:54,330 --> 00:44:58,250
Speaker 1: doesn't find a way. What I'm worried about is the

617
00:44:58,370 --> 00:45:03,130
Speaker 1: loss of public trust when scientists accidentally engineer a whole species.

618
00:45:03,930 --> 00:45:07,770
Speaker 1: Whatever they do can be undone except for the fact

619
00:45:08,170 --> 00:45:10,610
Speaker 1: that it would be become very well known through the

620
00:45:10,650 --> 00:45:14,130
Speaker 1: media that scientists accidentally turned to species into GMOs. So

621
00:45:14,170 --> 00:45:17,410
Speaker 1: that's why you're very concerned to get this right. You

622
00:45:17,490 --> 00:45:21,290
Speaker 1: don't think that this really will go wrong. And you

623
00:45:21,410 --> 00:45:25,130
Speaker 1: do have this ultimate safety switch, which is send another

624
00:45:25,210 --> 00:45:28,690
Speaker 1: gene drive to go after the first gene drive. But

625
00:45:28,770 --> 00:45:32,210
Speaker 1: if we have to do that, we've already lost public

626
00:45:32,250 --> 00:45:35,410
Speaker 1: trust in the technology. So we better never have to

627
00:45:35,450 --> 00:45:46,290
Speaker 1: do that. Chapter seven Skeptics. While everyone is in favor

628
00:45:46,330 --> 00:45:50,450
Speaker 1: of eradicating malaria, which kills four hundred thousand people a year,

629
00:45:51,250 --> 00:45:55,490
Speaker 1: some people are pretty skeptical about using gene drives to

630
00:45:55,530 --> 00:45:58,650
Speaker 1: do it. I personally would not be in favor of

631
00:45:58,730 --> 00:46:03,690
Speaker 1: gene drives. This is Zarahmulu. I'm a journalist and documentary

632
00:46:03,730 --> 00:46:07,490
Speaker 1: filmmaker from Kenya and I'm currently based in Montreal. Zara

633
00:46:07,730 --> 00:46:10,330
Speaker 1: has covered a wide range of time topics that affect Africa,

634
00:46:10,650 --> 00:46:16,250
Speaker 1: including an investigative portrait of a multinational gold mine in Tanzania. Recently,

635
00:46:16,410 --> 00:46:20,530
Speaker 1: she began collaborating with an organization called the ETC Group.

636
00:46:21,570 --> 00:46:27,210
Speaker 1: It's a small organization that works with civil society across

637
00:46:27,370 --> 00:46:30,810
Speaker 1: different parts of the world and they do work on

638
00:46:30,850 --> 00:46:34,770
Speaker 1: the impact of new technologies on biodiversity and human rights

639
00:46:34,770 --> 00:46:37,450
Speaker 1: and agriculture, and so I came to learn about gene

640
00:46:37,530 --> 00:46:42,010
Speaker 1: drives through ETC Groups through collaborating with them. In twenty eighteen,

641
00:46:42,330 --> 00:46:45,450
Speaker 1: Zara made a short film and wrote an article casting

642
00:46:45,530 --> 00:46:50,410
Speaker 1: doubt on target Malaria's efforts in Burkina Faso. For starters,

643
00:46:50,410 --> 00:46:53,650
Speaker 1: she challenges the motives of people working on gene drives.

644
00:46:54,210 --> 00:46:58,050
Speaker 1: The question to ask, is our gene drives really about

645
00:46:58,130 --> 00:47:02,130
Speaker 1: public health and conservation or other other interests and other

646
00:47:02,850 --> 00:47:05,970
Speaker 1: other ways that agribusiness companies can make a profit from

647
00:47:06,010 --> 00:47:08,650
Speaker 1: gene drives. Why do we really need gene drives, what

648
00:47:08,690 --> 00:47:11,450
Speaker 1: are they really for and who is going to benefit

649
00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:15,370
Speaker 1: ultimately from the development of this technology. It's very nice

650
00:47:15,370 --> 00:47:18,850
Speaker 1: to think that people really care about the lives of Africans.

651
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:20,810
Speaker 1: But I think this story is a lot more complex

652
00:47:20,810 --> 00:47:24,970
Speaker 1: than that. Zara also argues that Africa doesn't really need

653
00:47:25,170 --> 00:47:28,450
Speaker 1: gene drives to conquer malaria. I come from a country

654
00:47:28,450 --> 00:47:31,610
Speaker 1: where people contract malaria regularly. People die in my country

655
00:47:31,650 --> 00:47:34,450
Speaker 1: from malaria. We do need to fight malaria, and it's

656
00:47:34,490 --> 00:47:38,050
Speaker 1: a terrible disease. No one's going to disagree with that. However,

657
00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:42,450
Speaker 1: it's also important to know that Paraguay eliminated malaria recently,

658
00:47:42,490 --> 00:47:46,410
Speaker 1: Tri Lanka eliminated malaria. Algeria and Argentina have just been

659
00:47:46,450 --> 00:47:49,730
Speaker 1: declared malaria free, and so there are ways in which

660
00:47:49,770 --> 00:47:54,530
Speaker 1: countries have successfully eradicated malaria without having to employ very

661
00:47:54,610 --> 00:47:58,770
Speaker 1: risky technologies like gene drives. I asked malaria expert Diane

662
00:47:58,770 --> 00:48:03,690
Speaker 1: Worth whether she thought malaria eradication in those countries provided

663
00:48:03,690 --> 00:48:07,770
Speaker 1: a useful model for sub Saharan Africa. She was skeptical.

664
00:48:08,490 --> 00:48:14,410
Speaker 1: Algeria it's a desert, mosquitoes need water to breed. Paraguay

665
00:48:14,970 --> 00:48:19,970
Speaker 1: very small number of cases, probably eliminated years ago, but

666
00:48:20,090 --> 00:48:26,490
Speaker 1: finally certified. Argentina same story, relatively little malaria. Ever, Sri

667
00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:30,290
Speaker 1: Lanka is an island they don't have to deal with

668
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:36,170
Speaker 1: importation from surrounding countries. They have a very strong healthcare system,

669
00:48:36,210 --> 00:48:40,450
Speaker 1: so they're able to identify early every case of malaria,

670
00:48:40,530 --> 00:48:45,490
Speaker 1: and they have a mosquito vector that isn't very robust.

671
00:48:45,690 --> 00:48:49,850
Speaker 1: Diane argued that malaria in Sub Saharan Africa represents a

672
00:48:50,090 --> 00:48:55,610
Speaker 1: very different challenge. They're different mosquitos, there's different ecology, there's

673
00:48:55,730 --> 00:48:59,850
Speaker 1: different burden of disease in the population. In many places

674
00:48:59,850 --> 00:49:04,450
Speaker 1: in Sub Saharan Africa, children have malaria for half the

675
00:49:04,570 --> 00:49:09,370
Speaker 1: year and serve as reservoirs for transmission. The mosquito in

676
00:49:09,490 --> 00:49:13,770
Speaker 1: Africa is a mosquito that only bites humans. That means

677
00:49:13,810 --> 00:49:18,810
Speaker 1: that's the most effective transmitter in most of Africa, and

678
00:49:18,890 --> 00:49:25,250
Speaker 1: so therefore detecting early, preventing and getting treatment for the

679
00:49:25,370 --> 00:49:29,250
Speaker 1: disease represents a challenge. Whatever you think about the need

680
00:49:29,330 --> 00:49:34,130
Speaker 1: for gene drives, Czara's key issue is very important. It's

681
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:37,610
Speaker 1: in the title of her film, A question of consent

682
00:49:38,730 --> 00:49:43,090
Speaker 1: Before gene drives get released into the wild. Who needs

683
00:49:43,130 --> 00:49:50,930
Speaker 1: to say yes? Chapter eight, charm l Shake to Nantucket.

684
00:49:52,850 --> 00:49:55,850
Speaker 1: What to do about gene drives is a question that's

685
00:49:55,850 --> 00:49:59,410
Speaker 1: been hotly debated by the governing body for the Convention

686
00:49:59,530 --> 00:50:03,690
Speaker 1: on Biological Diversity in international agreements among one hundred and

687
00:50:03,730 --> 00:50:07,850
Speaker 1: ninety six countries on preserving, sustaining and sharing the benefits

688
00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:12,730
Speaker 1: of biodiversity. In December twenty eighteen, the group met in

689
00:50:12,890 --> 00:50:18,250
Speaker 1: Charmel Shaikh, Egypt. Natalie Koefler, the founder of Editing Nature,

690
00:50:18,610 --> 00:50:21,330
Speaker 1: traveled to Egypt to deliver a talk. At the meeting,

691
00:50:22,090 --> 00:50:25,570
Speaker 1: many representatives from Target Malaria were present, and then many

692
00:50:25,650 --> 00:50:30,490
Speaker 1: representatives from several environmental groups, and those include environmental justice

693
00:50:30,530 --> 00:50:35,010
Speaker 1: advocacy sort of technological white watchdogs groups like ETC Group.

694
00:50:35,650 --> 00:50:38,210
Speaker 1: The group of the NGOs of the meeting, including the

695
00:50:38,250 --> 00:50:42,290
Speaker 1: ETC Group, called for a total moratorium on gene drives,

696
00:50:42,730 --> 00:50:47,090
Speaker 1: not just undeploying them, but even studying them in the laboratory.

697
00:50:47,730 --> 00:50:50,970
Speaker 1: They are calling for a moratorium on research, so basically

698
00:50:50,970 --> 00:50:54,330
Speaker 1: for all research to halt, which I believe is just

699
00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:57,050
Speaker 1: somewhat ridiculous. I don't think there's a way you just

700
00:50:57,090 --> 00:51:00,050
Speaker 1: stop people trying to understand more. And if the point

701
00:51:00,130 --> 00:51:01,570
Speaker 1: is that this could be something that could be of

702
00:51:01,570 --> 00:51:03,290
Speaker 1: great benefit, you would want to be able to study

703
00:51:03,290 --> 00:51:05,090
Speaker 1: it more and make sure you can understand what those

704
00:51:05,090 --> 00:51:08,810
Speaker 1: benefits or risks could be stopping research. To me, seems your.

705
00:51:10,130 --> 00:51:15,730
Speaker 1: The Governing Body eventually rejected the call for a moratorium. Nonetheless,

706
00:51:16,050 --> 00:51:19,690
Speaker 1: Zara Mulu saw the meeting as a partial victory, pointing

707
00:51:19,730 --> 00:51:23,050
Speaker 1: to the closing statement by the Governing Body, which she

708
00:51:23,170 --> 00:51:28,170
Speaker 1: said requires organizations seeking to release gene drive organisms to

709
00:51:28,290 --> 00:51:33,250
Speaker 1: obtain the quote free prior and informed consent of potentially

710
00:51:33,290 --> 00:51:36,890
Speaker 1: affected communities. So it has to be free, prior and

711
00:51:36,890 --> 00:51:42,850
Speaker 1: informed consent before these releases go ahead. So who exactly

712
00:51:42,930 --> 00:51:47,210
Speaker 1: do you ask for consent? Elected officials? Anyone who might

713
00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:50,890
Speaker 1: potentially be affected? How do you even know everyone who

714
00:51:50,970 --> 00:51:54,810
Speaker 1: might be affected? Well, Kevin Esfeld has been wrestling with

715
00:51:54,850 --> 00:51:57,690
Speaker 1: these issues and a project he's working on to fight

716
00:51:57,930 --> 00:52:01,890
Speaker 1: lime disease in New England. Lime disease is awful. Lime

717
00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:05,050
Speaker 1: disease is disgusting. I don't like ticks, so I figured, well,

718
00:52:05,450 --> 00:52:09,570
Speaker 1: what if we decide to prevent lime disease caused by

719
00:52:09,570 --> 00:52:15,250
Speaker 1: a bacteria. Lime disease can lead to serious long term symptoms,

720
00:52:15,290 --> 00:52:20,530
Speaker 1: including pain, severe headaches, and numbness. Humans get lime disease

721
00:52:20,770 --> 00:52:24,490
Speaker 1: from being bitten by infected ticks. And how do the

722
00:52:24,610 --> 00:52:28,690
Speaker 1: ticks pick up the bacteria? Most ticks get infected when

723
00:52:28,690 --> 00:52:30,970
Speaker 1: they bite a white footed mouse, so what if the

724
00:52:31,010 --> 00:52:35,570
Speaker 1: white footed mice were immune. Kevin's big idea was to

725
00:52:35,610 --> 00:52:39,010
Speaker 1: take the mice that had developed antibodies against lime disease,

726
00:52:39,930 --> 00:52:44,010
Speaker 1: read out the genetic instructions that encode those antibodies, and

727
00:52:44,210 --> 00:52:48,330
Speaker 1: use a gene drive to spread those instructions throughout the

728
00:52:48,570 --> 00:52:53,170
Speaker 1: entire white footed mouse population so that the mice get

729
00:52:53,250 --> 00:52:58,050
Speaker 1: born immune. For a number of reasons, Kevin decided the

730
00:52:58,050 --> 00:53:01,370
Speaker 1: best place to test the idea would be Nantucket and

731
00:53:01,410 --> 00:53:08,010
Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard, former whaling communities turned summer resorts in Massachusetts. First,

732
00:53:08,290 --> 00:53:11,930
Speaker 1: they have high rates of lime disease, about half the

733
00:53:11,970 --> 00:53:16,050
Speaker 1: people who grow up there have had acute episodes. Second,

734
00:53:16,290 --> 00:53:19,810
Speaker 1: they're islands, so a gene drive wouldn't spread as easily.

735
00:53:20,410 --> 00:53:24,570
Speaker 1: And third they had in place a mechanism for consent.

736
00:53:25,330 --> 00:53:27,970
Speaker 1: New England has this tradition of town hall democracy, in

737
00:53:27,970 --> 00:53:31,490
Speaker 1: which communities actually get together and discuss important problems. So

738
00:53:31,570 --> 00:53:34,530
Speaker 1: Kevin reached out to the boards of health on Nantucket

739
00:53:34,530 --> 00:53:37,730
Speaker 1: and Martha's Vineyard, and Nantucket got back to us first

740
00:53:37,770 --> 00:53:41,570
Speaker 1: and said, yeah, come to our meeting. So we took

741
00:53:41,570 --> 00:53:44,890
Speaker 1: the ferry and I explained how we might be able

742
00:53:44,930 --> 00:53:46,690
Speaker 1: to do this. But if we were going to do it,

743
00:53:46,850 --> 00:53:48,650
Speaker 1: the community would need to tell us what to do.

744
00:53:48,970 --> 00:53:51,410
Speaker 1: Are they interested enough for us to bother and if so,

745
00:53:52,370 --> 00:53:55,490
Speaker 1: which option would they prefer? What they say, this sounds

746
00:53:55,530 --> 00:53:58,570
Speaker 1: really interesting, We think you should begin research. How many

747
00:53:58,570 --> 00:54:01,650
Speaker 1: more meetings have you had after that first meeting? Oh? Oh,

748
00:54:01,690 --> 00:54:05,530
Speaker 1: well over a dozen meetings on both islands. And as

749
00:54:05,570 --> 00:54:07,970
Speaker 1: this changed the way you think about the experiment, it

750
00:54:08,050 --> 00:54:10,970
Speaker 1: has so people who live there know much more about

751
00:54:10,970 --> 00:54:13,650
Speaker 1: the environment than I do, or in collectively, more than

752
00:54:13,690 --> 00:54:16,890
Speaker 1: any single scientist does. They could notice something that we haven't.

753
00:54:17,610 --> 00:54:19,170
Speaker 1: And so if you want to make this kind of

754
00:54:19,290 --> 00:54:23,170
Speaker 1: project as safe as possible, you invite everyone to poke

755
00:54:23,250 --> 00:54:26,570
Speaker 1: holes in your pet theory. Kevin isn't actually proposing to

756
00:54:26,650 --> 00:54:30,330
Speaker 1: start by releasing gene drives on the whole of Nantucket

757
00:54:30,410 --> 00:54:34,370
Speaker 1: or Martha's Vineyard. Instead, he's hoping to try it on

758
00:54:34,410 --> 00:54:39,490
Speaker 1: some very little islands nearby. Fortunately, there are several owners

759
00:54:39,530 --> 00:54:42,050
Speaker 1: of islands who have volunteered their islands for this project

760
00:54:42,050 --> 00:54:44,050
Speaker 1: because they're tired of going out there over the summer

761
00:54:44,250 --> 00:54:46,170
Speaker 1: and getting bitten by ticks and having a take doxy

762
00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:49,970
Speaker 1: cycling these would be little islands, uninhabited except for occasionally

763
00:54:49,970 --> 00:54:53,010
Speaker 1: a few summer residents, all of whom have bought in.

764
00:54:53,490 --> 00:54:57,130
Speaker 1: So what's your scenario for releasing gene drive mice on

765
00:54:57,130 --> 00:55:00,730
Speaker 1: a little island. We're considering the possibility of using a

766
00:55:00,810 --> 00:55:04,690
Speaker 1: form of threshold drive That might be the very first

767
00:55:04,810 --> 00:55:08,530
Speaker 1: field trial. Target best case scenario would be three years

768
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:12,570
Speaker 1: if it turns out the standard methods in lab mice

769
00:55:12,890 --> 00:55:17,690
Speaker 1: transfer pretty readily. According to a recent update from Kevin,

770
00:55:18,330 --> 00:55:22,250
Speaker 1: most islanders are comfortable with the idea of releasing genetically

771
00:55:22,290 --> 00:55:28,570
Speaker 1: engineered mice, provided that all the DNA components come from

772
00:55:28,570 --> 00:55:32,770
Speaker 1: within the mouse species. Many, though, are bothered by the

773
00:55:32,810 --> 00:55:37,090
Speaker 1: idea of mixing DNA from different species, which would of

774
00:55:37,130 --> 00:55:41,770
Speaker 1: course rule out a crisper based chain drive at least

775
00:55:41,770 --> 00:55:51,490
Speaker 1: to start Chapter nine, consent or consensus. So what to

776
00:55:51,530 --> 00:55:55,290
Speaker 1: do about fighting malaria in West Africa? The problem is

777
00:55:55,330 --> 00:55:58,730
Speaker 1: far more urgent than lyme disease, which is almost never fatal,

778
00:55:59,210 --> 00:56:03,650
Speaker 1: and the issues around consent are far more complicated. Again,

779
00:56:04,090 --> 00:56:08,770
Speaker 1: Zaramolu is highly critical of target Malaria's process, which she

780
00:56:09,210 --> 00:56:12,650
Speaker 1: views as secretive. So I guess a question PAPS for

781
00:56:12,730 --> 00:56:16,650
Speaker 1: them is what constitutes consent to them. What have they

782
00:56:16,730 --> 00:56:19,650
Speaker 1: done to ensure that the process of free, prior and

783
00:56:19,690 --> 00:56:23,810
Speaker 1: informed consent is in place in Burkina Fasso following the

784
00:56:23,850 --> 00:56:27,490
Speaker 1: decision at the Convention on Biological Diversity. When I spoke

785
00:56:27,530 --> 00:56:30,330
Speaker 1: to people in Burkina Fasso, they suddenly were not informed.

786
00:56:30,370 --> 00:56:32,450
Speaker 1: People need to be informed, not just at the village

787
00:56:32,530 --> 00:56:35,010
Speaker 1: level where these releases are going to take place, but

788
00:56:35,050 --> 00:56:38,010
Speaker 1: also in the cities. Civil society needs to be informed.

789
00:56:38,290 --> 00:56:40,450
Speaker 1: I would say the whole country and even the whole

790
00:56:40,490 --> 00:56:42,690
Speaker 1: region needs to be informed because this is a very

791
00:56:42,970 --> 00:56:47,690
Speaker 1: risky technology whose consequences are not known. In Czar's film,

792
00:56:47,850 --> 00:56:51,490
Speaker 1: she interviews about a dozen people in the regional capital,

793
00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:55,690
Speaker 1: where Target Malaria's lab is located, and in small communities

794
00:56:55,930 --> 00:57:00,090
Speaker 1: where Target malarias someday hopes to test gene drives. The

795
00:57:00,170 --> 00:57:04,010
Speaker 1: people interviewed mostly say they haven't been told about the research.

796
00:57:05,050 --> 00:57:10,050
Speaker 1: Some say they distrust GMOs, citing Burkina Fasso's experiences with

797
00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:15,290
Speaker 1: genetically modified cotton, and some worry the gene drives will

798
00:57:15,330 --> 00:57:19,570
Speaker 1: have side effects. According to one woman interviewed quote it

799
00:57:19,610 --> 00:57:24,490
Speaker 1: will kill us. Sara says Target Malaria hasn't accepted the

800
00:57:24,530 --> 00:57:29,970
Speaker 1: concept of informed consent. Target Malaria talks about stakeholder engagement.

801
00:57:30,010 --> 00:57:33,730
Speaker 1: They talk about community engagement, but they don't talk about consent.

802
00:57:34,490 --> 00:57:37,770
Speaker 1: She also says Target Malaria shouldn't be the only group

803
00:57:37,850 --> 00:57:41,970
Speaker 1: providing information about gene drives because their advocates for the

804
00:57:42,050 --> 00:57:45,810
Speaker 1: new technology. Information needs to be out there, information that's

805
00:57:45,850 --> 00:57:50,250
Speaker 1: not just from Target Malaria, but also independent information from researchers,

806
00:57:50,290 --> 00:57:55,770
Speaker 1: from scientists. I asked Abdulaye Diabate, the Burkina Faso native

807
00:57:55,810 --> 00:58:01,650
Speaker 1: and Target Malaria scientist, about his organization's efforts. It's extremely

808
00:58:01,770 --> 00:58:04,450
Speaker 1: important that you have to work in full competenty, you know,

809
00:58:04,490 --> 00:58:08,930
Speaker 1: with the different community and want communities not just about

810
00:58:08,930 --> 00:58:11,610
Speaker 1: the village is where you're doing the work. It's you know,

811
00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:16,210
Speaker 1: the religious authority, in the media. We also even with

812
00:58:16,250 --> 00:58:18,250
Speaker 1: the civil society. So you have a willy to make

813
00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:20,690
Speaker 1: sure that you have worked clearly in all these people.

814
00:58:21,410 --> 00:58:24,490
Speaker 1: Abdula says that he and his colleagues meet regularly with

815
00:58:24,570 --> 00:58:27,690
Speaker 1: local residents as well as citizens and other parts of

816
00:58:27,690 --> 00:58:32,450
Speaker 1: the country to help people understanding drives. They've developed a

817
00:58:32,530 --> 00:58:36,770
Speaker 1: lexicon to translate the scientific words into the local languages.

818
00:58:37,370 --> 00:58:40,970
Speaker 1: They've also invited residents to visit the laboratory to see

819
00:58:40,970 --> 00:58:45,090
Speaker 1: how they feed the mosquitoes and explain their experiments, and

820
00:58:45,210 --> 00:58:50,210
Speaker 1: he says they've put in place a grievance mechanism anything,

821
00:58:50,290 --> 00:58:53,530
Speaker 1: that these people are religion, that in the villages, I'm

822
00:58:53,570 --> 00:58:57,490
Speaker 1: not happy about that they have any customs. And now

823
00:58:57,490 --> 00:58:59,930
Speaker 1: we come and we see sit down with them and

824
00:58:59,970 --> 00:59:02,410
Speaker 1: then we can talk and and this is how really

825
00:59:02,450 --> 00:59:06,610
Speaker 1: you build for us, you know, with the villages. Target

826
00:59:06,650 --> 00:59:10,010
Speaker 1: Malaria has also worked with the Burkina Fossil government, getting

827
00:59:10,050 --> 00:59:14,770
Speaker 1: permission from the National Biosafety Agency for small scale releases

828
00:59:14,810 --> 00:59:18,810
Speaker 1: of non gene drive mosquitoes, and with the African Union's

829
00:59:18,890 --> 00:59:23,010
Speaker 1: Scientific arm which issued a favorable report about the potential

830
00:59:23,090 --> 00:59:28,370
Speaker 1: for gene drives. Still, Abdulay acknowledges there will never be

831
00:59:28,610 --> 00:59:34,730
Speaker 1: unanimity about gene drives. It's really excellutely difficult continual technology

832
00:59:34,810 --> 00:59:38,010
Speaker 1: to have everybody having, you know, the same opinion. That

833
00:59:38,130 --> 00:59:40,570
Speaker 1: being fair, it's clear that the Buchina is really quite bad.

834
00:59:40,690 --> 00:59:43,850
Speaker 1: So we're almost about, you know, seventeen to eighteen million people,

835
00:59:43,970 --> 00:59:47,530
Speaker 1: so you cannot wish out to anyone everybody. So we

836
00:59:47,610 --> 00:59:50,010
Speaker 1: have done what we could do. Faith to faith with

837
00:59:50,210 --> 00:59:53,290
Speaker 1: people and beyond that. Now we have been working also

838
00:59:53,330 --> 00:59:57,690
Speaker 1: with the media, either through the TV or through also

839
00:59:57,850 --> 01:00:00,690
Speaker 1: the written paper, so to mixed that the information and

840
01:00:00,810 --> 01:00:03,930
Speaker 1: really help that that people can you get the right information.

841
01:00:04,010 --> 01:00:06,490
Speaker 1: And then we open our door for anyone who really

842
01:00:06,690 --> 01:00:10,130
Speaker 1: have concerns about anything. And I can say that we

843
01:00:10,210 --> 01:00:14,130
Speaker 1: have rushed out to a lot of people. Still we

844
01:00:14,370 --> 01:00:17,410
Speaker 1: still have a lot of work to do given Target

845
01:00:17,450 --> 01:00:21,690
Speaker 1: Malaria's engagement activities. I asked Austin Byrd about Zara Mulu's

846
01:00:21,770 --> 01:00:26,650
Speaker 1: criticism that the group doesn't talk about getting quote, informed consent.

847
01:00:27,610 --> 01:00:31,850
Speaker 1: Austin argued that informed consent is the right concept when

848
01:00:31,890 --> 01:00:36,010
Speaker 1: you're performing a medical procedure on an individual patient. But

849
01:00:36,250 --> 01:00:41,050
Speaker 1: he says public health interventions are decided by communities and governments,

850
01:00:41,570 --> 01:00:44,050
Speaker 1: the practice is to work at the community level to

851
01:00:44,130 --> 01:00:48,090
Speaker 1: seek community acceptance or approval. In fact, it turns out

852
01:00:48,130 --> 01:00:50,730
Speaker 1: the statement by the governing Body of the Convention on

853
01:00:50,770 --> 01:00:56,290
Speaker 1: Biological Diversity also endorsed this approach. It called on parties

854
01:00:56,330 --> 01:01:02,730
Speaker 1: to seek either free, prior and informed consent or approval

855
01:01:02,770 --> 01:01:07,050
Speaker 1: and involvement of local communities. In other words, the international

856
01:01:07,130 --> 01:01:12,690
Speaker 1: Statement is open to both approaches. I asked Natalie Koefler

857
01:01:12,770 --> 01:01:16,290
Speaker 1: what she thought about Target Malaria's efforts to inform the public.

858
01:01:17,330 --> 01:01:21,610
Speaker 1: They also run a really significant public engagement initiative in

859
01:01:21,650 --> 01:01:24,730
Speaker 1: the countries that they're looking to release these mosquitoes and eventually,

860
01:01:25,370 --> 01:01:28,570
Speaker 1: and that would be Burkina, Fassa, Amali and Uganda are

861
01:01:28,610 --> 01:01:31,850
Speaker 1: sort of the three countries they're targeting. Target Malaria also

862
01:01:32,170 --> 01:01:38,890
Speaker 1: has significant outreach with government officials within the African Union.

863
01:01:39,330 --> 01:01:43,050
Speaker 1: I have to say I'm impressed by the amount of

864
01:01:43,090 --> 01:01:47,330
Speaker 1: foresight they're using and the transparency they are they are using.

865
01:01:48,090 --> 01:01:51,130
Speaker 1: They're going above and beyond what most technologists have ever

866
01:01:51,170 --> 01:01:55,530
Speaker 1: done in the past. While Natalie applauded Target Malaria's efforts,

867
01:01:55,970 --> 01:02:00,730
Speaker 1: she agreed with Zaramolu on one important point, namely that

868
01:02:00,890 --> 01:02:05,530
Speaker 1: communities can't just rely on Target Malaria to provide information

869
01:02:05,930 --> 01:02:09,170
Speaker 1: or to lead the discussions. It's concerning to me in

870
01:02:09,370 --> 01:02:13,330
Speaker 1: a large, well funded organization is able to sort of

871
01:02:13,410 --> 01:02:17,570
Speaker 1: lunilaterally steer the technology's progress. So there needs to be

872
01:02:17,570 --> 01:02:20,810
Speaker 1: a third party, neutral body that can help to mediate

873
01:02:21,050 --> 01:02:24,010
Speaker 1: this sort of discussions and deliberation and information that would

874
01:02:24,010 --> 01:02:26,050
Speaker 1: be needed to even come to any sort of decision.

875
01:02:26,570 --> 01:02:31,090
Speaker 1: Who is the independent third party who's not either a

876
01:02:31,210 --> 01:02:35,290
Speaker 1: declared advocate trying to release the gene drive or the

877
01:02:35,330 --> 01:02:39,210
Speaker 1: declared NGEO opponent. I mean, quite frankly, that's the sort

878
01:02:39,210 --> 01:02:41,650
Speaker 1: of organization that I'm in the process of trying to create.

879
01:02:41,810 --> 01:02:45,970
Speaker 1: These are really complicated issues, and they really deserve time

880
01:02:46,090 --> 01:02:51,210
Speaker 1: and reflection, an engagement of really diverse voices. Natalie was

881
01:02:51,250 --> 01:02:55,370
Speaker 1: the lead author of an unusual policy article entitled Editing

882
01:02:55,490 --> 01:03:00,290
Speaker 1: Nature Local Roots of Global Governance, published in November twenty

883
01:03:00,290 --> 01:03:04,850
Speaker 1: eighteen and Science, the leading American scientific journal. The article

884
01:03:05,130 --> 01:03:08,090
Speaker 1: calls for the creation of a kind of honest broker

885
01:03:08,290 --> 01:03:13,490
Speaker 1: organization that can convene parties ranging from local communities to

886
01:03:13,650 --> 01:03:19,090
Speaker 1: technologists and geo's and governments to deliberate about proposed uses

887
01:03:19,210 --> 01:03:22,330
Speaker 1: of gene drives. We call for the need to have

888
01:03:22,810 --> 01:03:26,410
Speaker 1: really meaningful locally based engagement around these technologies, but then

889
01:03:26,410 --> 01:03:28,610
Speaker 1: we also call for the need for some sort of

890
01:03:28,650 --> 01:03:33,170
Speaker 1: global coordinating body. The articles a great model of scientists

891
01:03:33,170 --> 01:03:37,010
Speaker 1: scrappling with how society might come together to make decisions

892
01:03:37,050 --> 01:03:41,330
Speaker 1: about whether and when to deploy a new technology. It

893
01:03:41,370 --> 01:03:45,930
Speaker 1: has sixteen co authors, including Jim Collins, who led the

894
01:03:46,010 --> 01:03:50,170
Speaker 1: National Academy study and Kevin Esfeld. I asked Jim Collins

895
01:03:50,170 --> 01:03:54,770
Speaker 1: how something like a global coordinating body might work. For example,

896
01:03:55,170 --> 01:03:59,650
Speaker 1: who would choose the representatives of the local communities. I

897
01:03:59,690 --> 01:04:03,930
Speaker 1: would be in favor of whatever governance structure the local

898
01:04:03,970 --> 01:04:07,410
Speaker 1: community uses to pick its leadership or to pick representatives.

899
01:04:07,490 --> 01:04:09,850
Speaker 1: And yet you're an optimist that this be done. I

900
01:04:09,890 --> 01:04:12,210
Speaker 1: am an optimist that it can be done. And furthermore,

901
01:04:12,250 --> 01:04:14,130
Speaker 1: I think that we want to do it now. You

902
01:04:14,170 --> 01:04:15,770
Speaker 1: want to do it now. You want to work through

903
01:04:15,810 --> 01:04:19,090
Speaker 1: these problems now, so that you're thinking, you've got the time.

904
01:04:19,330 --> 01:04:22,970
Speaker 1: The technology has not been perfected, so we have a

905
01:04:23,050 --> 01:04:25,930
Speaker 1: little bit of breathing room. So this is the time

906
01:04:26,010 --> 01:04:31,770
Speaker 1: to develop these sorts of governance structures. But scientists realize

907
01:04:31,810 --> 01:04:36,610
Speaker 1: that achieving consensus won't be easy. The more people you

908
01:04:36,650 --> 01:04:39,130
Speaker 1: have at the table, the harder it is to find consensus.

909
01:04:39,170 --> 01:04:41,810
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a paradox. I think about a lot because

910
01:04:41,850 --> 01:04:44,970
Speaker 1: I'm hot, like full on. I want as many diverse

911
01:04:45,090 --> 01:04:47,010
Speaker 1: voices at the table as we can have. I want

912
01:04:47,010 --> 01:04:50,250
Speaker 1: historically marginalized voices at the table. I even want people

913
01:04:50,250 --> 01:04:53,370
Speaker 1: speaking for nature at the table. And this is going

914
01:04:53,410 --> 01:04:55,930
Speaker 1: to make things complicated, and so maybe we even have

915
01:04:55,970 --> 01:04:58,930
Speaker 1: to think about again differently. This isn't necessarily a yes

916
01:04:59,090 --> 01:05:01,810
Speaker 1: or no. This is more of sort of an informing

917
01:05:01,890 --> 01:05:04,970
Speaker 1: process that can help steer, at least steer the technology

918
01:05:04,970 --> 01:05:06,850
Speaker 1: in a way that's reflective of a broader group of

919
01:05:06,890 --> 01:05:11,450
Speaker 1: people inventing why is ways to manage gene drives may

920
01:05:11,610 --> 01:05:15,250
Speaker 1: ultimately take as much creativity as it took to invent

921
01:05:15,410 --> 01:05:18,610
Speaker 1: gene drives in the first place, and it may take

922
01:05:18,690 --> 01:05:21,610
Speaker 1: some time in that regard. I want to note that

923
01:05:21,610 --> 01:05:25,330
Speaker 1: at the Broad Institute, the research institute I direct, we

924
01:05:25,450 --> 01:05:28,050
Speaker 1: ourselves have had to grapple with what to do about

925
01:05:28,090 --> 01:05:32,810
Speaker 1: gene drives. I mentioned earlier that many scientists had contributed

926
01:05:32,850 --> 01:05:37,090
Speaker 1: to the development of Crisper, the key technology underlying modern

927
01:05:37,170 --> 01:05:41,290
Speaker 1: gene drives. These scientists include some of my colleagues at

928
01:05:41,330 --> 01:05:44,490
Speaker 1: the Broad and, as a result, the Institute as a

929
01:05:44,530 --> 01:05:47,610
Speaker 1: co owner of some of the foundational patents on Crisper.

930
01:05:48,450 --> 01:05:51,330
Speaker 1: We've granted commercial licenses for the use of Crisper for

931
01:05:51,490 --> 01:05:56,290
Speaker 1: many purposes, but the question arose, should we let companies

932
01:05:56,450 --> 01:06:00,610
Speaker 1: license our patents on Crisper for use in gene drives.

933
01:06:01,570 --> 01:06:05,130
Speaker 1: After a lot of discussion, we decided not to do so.

934
01:06:05,770 --> 01:06:08,570
Speaker 1: At least not yet. We thought it would be better

935
01:06:08,650 --> 01:06:12,210
Speaker 1: to wait before granting licenses to help buy time for

936
01:06:12,330 --> 01:06:21,050
Speaker 1: society to decide whether and how to use the technology. Still,

937
01:06:21,530 --> 01:06:25,810
Speaker 1: the clock is ticking. As I was finishing up this episode,

938
01:06:26,050 --> 01:06:29,410
Speaker 1: I called Austin Burt to confirm my recollection the Target

939
01:06:29,450 --> 01:06:33,290
Speaker 1: Malaria was on target to release gene drive mosquitoes in

940
01:06:33,330 --> 01:06:38,370
Speaker 1: about five years. He corrected me. He said Target Malaria

941
01:06:38,410 --> 01:06:41,570
Speaker 1: expected to be ready in five years to submit an

942
01:06:41,610 --> 01:06:47,770
Speaker 1: application asking for permission. What would happen next? He said, Well,

943
01:06:48,170 --> 01:06:59,490
Speaker 1: that would be up to society conclusion. Choose your planet.

944
01:07:02,090 --> 01:07:05,650
Speaker 1: So there you have it. Gene drives. They could help

945
01:07:05,730 --> 01:07:10,930
Speaker 1: us restore ecosystems disrupted by invasive species or help critical

946
01:07:11,050 --> 01:07:16,250
Speaker 1: native species withstand climate change. Most importantly, they might save

947
01:07:16,370 --> 01:07:21,530
Speaker 1: millions of lives by suppressing the mosquitoes that spread deadly malaria.

948
01:07:21,650 --> 01:07:25,010
Speaker 1: But the great power of gene drives to spread genetic

949
01:07:25,090 --> 01:07:29,490
Speaker 1: changes throughout a population might make them very hard to control.

950
01:07:30,130 --> 01:07:34,690
Speaker 1: They might spread beyond field tests or intended targets. Can

951
01:07:34,810 --> 01:07:40,570
Speaker 1: tamer versions of gene drives, daisy drives, threshold drives, restoration drives,

952
01:07:40,610 --> 01:07:46,050
Speaker 1: insure safety or are we kidding ourselves? Whatever? We do,

953
01:07:46,570 --> 01:07:51,690
Speaker 1: will life find a way. If we refuse to consider

954
01:07:51,810 --> 01:07:55,130
Speaker 1: gene drives for any purpose, we'd be turning our back

955
01:07:55,170 --> 01:07:59,090
Speaker 1: on a powerful way to tackle malaria. If we do

956
01:07:59,170 --> 01:08:03,130
Speaker 1: want to consider gene drives, communities in Africa will need

957
01:08:03,170 --> 01:08:07,370
Speaker 1: to answer some important questions. Who should be engaged and how,

958
01:08:08,250 --> 01:08:12,490
Speaker 1: who should the discussions, and who gets to make the

959
01:08:12,570 --> 01:08:17,170
Speaker 1: ultimate decision. But it's not just Africa. Similar questions will

960
01:08:17,210 --> 01:08:21,010
Speaker 1: arise throughout the world, including many places in the US,

961
01:08:21,450 --> 01:08:25,690
Speaker 1: from Martha's Vineyard to Maui. So the question is what

962
01:08:25,770 --> 01:08:30,730
Speaker 1: can you do a lot? It turns out you don't

963
01:08:30,730 --> 01:08:33,250
Speaker 1: have to be an expert and you don't have to

964
01:08:33,250 --> 01:08:37,930
Speaker 1: do it alone. Invite friends over virtually or in person

965
01:08:37,970 --> 01:08:40,890
Speaker 1: when it's saved for dinner and debate about what we

966
01:08:40,930 --> 01:08:44,450
Speaker 1: should do, or organize a conversation for a book club

967
01:08:44,570 --> 01:08:47,570
Speaker 1: or a faith group or a campus event. You can

968
01:08:47,570 --> 01:08:50,850
Speaker 1: find lots of resources and ideas at our website Brave

969
01:08:50,970 --> 01:08:55,530
Speaker 1: New Planet dot org. It's time to choose our planet.

970
01:08:56,210 --> 01:09:11,330
Speaker 1: The future is up to us. Brave New Planet is

971
01:09:11,330 --> 01:09:13,610
Speaker 1: a co production of the Broad Institute of mt and

972
01:09:13,730 --> 01:09:17,610
Speaker 1: Harvard Pushkin Industries in the Boston Globe, with support from

973
01:09:17,610 --> 01:09:20,930
Speaker 1: the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Our show is produced by

974
01:09:20,970 --> 01:09:24,970
Speaker 1: Rebecca Lee Douglas, with Mary Doo theme song composed by

975
01:09:25,050 --> 01:09:29,570
Speaker 1: Ned Porter, mastering and sound designed by James Garver, fact

976
01:09:29,610 --> 01:09:34,290
Speaker 1: checking by Joseph Fridman, and a Stitt and Enchant. Special

977
01:09:34,370 --> 01:09:38,050
Speaker 1: Thanks to Christine Heenan and Rachel Roberts at Clarendon Communications,

978
01:09:38,570 --> 01:09:42,130
Speaker 1: to Lee McGuire, Kristen Zarelli and Justine Levin Allerhans at

979
01:09:42,170 --> 01:09:46,290
Speaker 1: the Broad, to Milobelle and Heather Faine at Pushkin, and

980
01:09:46,890 --> 01:09:50,250
Speaker 1: to Eli and Edy Brode who made the Broad Institute possible.

981
01:09:50,850 --> 01:10:09,930
Speaker 1: This is brave new Planet. I'm Eric Lander ass