WEBVTT - Ep. 274: Farewell, Red Wolf 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.320 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:24.480 can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, stay longer, 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:35.120 quick note up top. Um, But of sad news. If 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.640 you go way back in our in our library of 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:42.839 episodes to episode one, which was called Adaptive Hunting and Fishing, 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.720 you will find a pretty inspiring interview with a guy 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:52.320 named Chris Clasby. Um, he had had an accident. Do 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.520 you remember, I feel like I can't. Was a diving No, 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.960 it was a vehicle vehicle accident. Yeah, I think sixteen 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:05.280 or seventeen, pretty paralyzed from the neck down. Um, but 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.160 I had enjoyed hunting and fishing, you know, and even 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:13.560 had worked with people to devise and and and fine tune. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:17.960 I remember, like a way to cast a rod. Yeah, 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.400 he can cast spinning rod reel it in. H did 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.760 shoot a rifle, did some hunting his hunting body basically 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.399 didn't hunt, but just helped. Like they just teamed up 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.600 to try to help Chris. They don't have experiences anyways, 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:39.440 Chris Classy passed away UM related to his condition, started 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.920 having a difficult time breathing and and um, I think 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.040 that he always kind of assumed he would not live 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:50.520 to be an old man. But condolences to Chris Clasby's 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:56.880 family and friends. And again episode one Adaptive Hunting and Fishing. 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.400 I think we yeah, we recorded that here, not here here, 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.520 but here. It was in Bozeman. It was actually the 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.200 last day that I was ever in the old Bozeman 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.440 ZPC office. I remember it was cleared out. It was 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.880 there's just a table sitting and I remember that you 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:16.440 were in there. But no, it's a it's a good episode. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.480 Everybody should go back and listen to that one and 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.520 you'll realize that whatever your problems are, they're not as 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:28.000 big as you think they are. Yeah, that's a good point. Um, 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:32.120 moving down here. So you know, I've said in recent episodes, 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.240 I'm always talking about how the only thing that should 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.679 be allowed on Instagram is the Turkey dock. Mm hmm. 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.400 Instagram said the Instagram should be called the Turkey Dock 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.880 and that's the only page you can follow. But I said, like, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.040 if there was two, yeah, yeah, you should be able 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:52.080 to follow Nature's medal. Um, if you hadn't really had 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.320 to follow something else, you could choose that. Well, we 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.919 just found out something quite titillating about the Turkey dock. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.160 Mike Chamberlain, who been on the show before here in 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.240 the studio. He's been on the show in a sort 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.799 of more ethereal way right where he we just had 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.840 his voice because Karin conducted an off interview with him 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:15.720 and then we played, so we were like playing a 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:21.760 recorded interview. But uh, Dr Chamberlain came up recently because 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:28.160 we were reading the thing that about the the what 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.560 the hell you even calm? The Red Wolf of the 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:36.280 Southeastern US, whatever partis, I'm messing up, Uh, Mike Chamberlain. 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.520 Le square is the way on. But there's only like 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:47.000 basically none left next to none left, um. And we 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.800 were kind of hunting around to try to find someone 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.480 who understood this world so they could explain the saga 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.400 of the Red Wolf of the Eastern Um of the 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:02.720 Deep Southeast or we're into Texas red Wolf. And the 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.120 first guy we went to was a real wolf expert 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.480 that we're I was talking about halfle Finger James Halflefinger, 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.960 halfle Finger Um says, I know a lot about a 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.360 lot of things, and I don't like to talk about 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:16.880 things I don't know about and red wolves are one 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:21.000 of them. But he said happened just so happens that 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.680 the Turkey dock is not just the Turkey dock. He's 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.640 like the red wolf dock. So we reached out and 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.800 Mike Chamberlain is joining us remotely here and he's gonna 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.400 give us a rundown on what the hell happened to 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.440 the red wolf, Like, what happened to it, what's happening 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.560 to it now? And why are there now articles saying 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:44.560 there's ten y Yeah, yeah, that's that's right. That's right. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:50.000 It's been quite as sorted, uh assorted past if you will. Yeah, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.200 so so red wolves. You mentioned that Steve red wolves 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.719 were historically the the Canaan in the Southeast. They were 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:02.599 the they were the top predator, if you will, um 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.880 intermediate in size between gray wolves and and coyote, so 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.280 not as large as a gray wolf and quite a 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:14.480 bit bigger than a kayote. For for many many years 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.400 they were the they were the top dog in the South, 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:21.560 and then, as human beings are apt to do, we 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:26.200 we extirpated them for most of their range. Part of 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:30.680 that was just conflicts with humans, part of it was 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:35.640 it was basically government mandated and and funded eradication programs 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:40.120 too to get rid of the wolf for for human desires, 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.240 if you will, Hey, let me let me let me 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.640 heat with this. About the range though, um, because I 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:48.240 know that we talked about him now in the southeast 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:54.719 Virginia to Texas. But like the wolves that Daniel Boone encountered, 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.239 Like I remember a guy and Daniel Boone's hunting party 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.520 once got bit by a wolf and then got rabies 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:05.000 and developed hydrophobia and died. Would that have been a 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:09.080 red wolf in Kentucky? Yes? So when when when the 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:14.920 frontiers mean we're talking about wolves, they're talking about red wolves. Yeah, 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:22.760 basically from latitude Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky south to the Gulf 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:28.080 Coast and then over to eastern Texas. Yep, got it, Okay, 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:32.880 go on. Yeah. So so we removed the red wolf 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.120 um for most of its range. And then there was 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:42.159 a pocket of of wolves slash hybrid animals that kind 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:48.400 of persisted in southwest Louisiana. And in the nineties seventies, UM, 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.160 the US Fishing Wildlife Service went in and and captured 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:57.000 as many of those animals as they could and using 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.520 what we thought at the time, This is what a 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:01.800 red wolf looks like. This is how big they are, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:08.880 this is what they're their appearances. They selected animals out 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.320 of those captured animals and they considered them as pure 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:18.800 red wolves, and they moved them to um captive breeding 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:24.680 situations and they started a captive breeding program. What had 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.560 they been hybridizing with? What had they been hybridizing with 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:32.280 in in Louisiana? Was it not domestic dogs but coyotes? 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.640 Was kayats And basically what you had and you guys 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.640 know this, So you had this, You had this pocket 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.760 of wolves that were left, and then you had this 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.800 swarm of kayotes that you know, they're numerically superior. And 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.600 as they kind of moved into areas where wolves were, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:56.840 they hybridized with with wolves because they're numerically superior. And um, 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.960 so you had all sorts of wolf like preachers. You know, 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:04.440 you had animals that were that were hybrids between kyotes 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:10.440 and red wolves. Those animals were were removed and the 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:15.040 quote unquote pure red wolves became founders for what is 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.560 now the red wolf that we know as a species. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:24.880 Um those ended up being fourteen That quick question when 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:32.000 the hybridization happens. Is it usually female coyote male red 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.520 wolf or vice versa, or would it go both ways? 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.320 It goes both ways, but it tends to be smaller 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.360 red wolves, that's what that's what we've seen. The smaller 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:45.280 red wolves tend to be the ones that that hybridize 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.040 with kyos, which makes sense because there without going too 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.120 far in the weeds, you know, wolves are bigger, so 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.720 they can use more space, they can eat larger prey 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:00.680 more efficiently, so a smaller wolf would be closer in 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:03.760 size to a coyote, so they would be more compatible 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.000 when it comes to pairing together and using a home 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.360 range together because they're they're comparable in size, if that 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.840 makes sense. If you do mean smaller like as in 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.080 younger or smaller as in just smaller stature or even 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:21.600 at maturity, smaller as a you know, morphologically smaller, they 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:27.160 weigh less, they're they're shorter, shorter ear, shorter legs, you know, etcetera. 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.959 So morphologically they look quote unquote more like a kaya 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.560 than say a larger wolf would. That's the wolves that 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.680 we see as being the hybridization issues, which makes sense. 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.199 But but to Yanni's but I want to make sure. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:43.800 I don't know. I don't know if you caught Yanni's 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.880 question the particulars of it, but he's saying, like, is 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:56.160 it generally that uh, a male red wolf breeds of 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:01.480 female coyote or vice versa place it goes Okay, so 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.959 you did catch that. Yeah, yeah, it goes both ways. 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.000 It just tends to be. It tends to be size 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.160 driven in particular as you would expect. I mean, you 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:15.520 and I'd have to go back and look at our date. 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.400 I think it tended to it tends to be more 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:23.800 prominent with a with a smaller male wolf and a 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.720 female kayote. But but that's kind of getting too far 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.440 into weeds. But the bottom line is, yes, both males 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:38.239 and females will hybridize with coyotes. Yes. So those fourteen 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:42.520 founders became became what is now the red wolf, and 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:47.160 for years the Fishing Wildlife Service, through cooperation with zoos 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:54.079 and um island propagation sites off the East coast, bread 0:10:54.160 --> 0:11:00.320 red wolves, and the idea was to eventually create a 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.920 wild population, uh, somewhere else other than where they were 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.520 removed from the wild, which was southwest Louisiana, and that 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:14.440 that happened in the late nineteen eighties. Those wolves were say, 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:20.480 those captive bread wolves were moved and released on the 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:25.360 Albemar Peninsula peninsula, which is northeast North Carolina. And the 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:30.120 reasons for that were many. One, there's a lot of 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:34.880 federal and state lands in that area. Two, there are 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.440 not a lot of human beings in that area. It's 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:44.040 it's it's an agricultural type landscape um with large private landowners. 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.920 And there were no coyotes there at the time. So 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:53.440 in seven those animals, you know, the first releases occurred 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.080 and from there you saw a fairly rapid increase in 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.959 the in the red wolf population Mike during that time 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.440 when they did that, knowing what you run into when 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:06.760 you get coyotes, was there anything that could be done 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.480 or was attempted to be done to keep that Knowing 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.800 that kyotes are spreading everywhere and moving into areas they 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:18.400 had never been before, was there anything like a plan 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:24.720 to prevent Kyle from getting in there, not not per 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.840 se keep kyodes from getting there. But once they did 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:34.480 get there, there was an immediate recognition that there needed 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.400 to be an adaptive management program in place. And what 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.800 I mean by that is, as soon as kayote started 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.160 infiltrating the recovery area, if you will, which was a 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.400 five county area. As soon as kaya started getting in there, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:51.800 the Fishing Wildlife Service realized they were going to have 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:57.160 to have a plan to mitigate this hybridization potential that 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:02.640 we knew existed with this with this sees. And that's 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.880 really when the more kind of hands on management of 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:12.679 the wolf began and what that program this was. This 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.040 came about in the late nineteen nineties. There was a 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:20.480 workshop convened. I actually attended that workshop as a graduate student. 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.160 I was, I was in all of the people I was, 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.559 I was sitting around because they were the gods of 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.439 of the wolf and coyote world. But anyway, the outcome 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.720 of that workshop, which was dedicated to trying to figure 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:38.480 out what do we do moving forward knowing that kayots 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.600 are there and they'll hybridize with wolves. And the outcome 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:46.600 of that was an adaptive management program where the U 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.240 S Fishalilife Service would go in and capture kayotes that 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:56.280 had infiltrated into the recovery area. They rather than euthanized them, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:01.600 they would sterilize them and released them as sterile placeholders. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.520 And the reason for that was was simple. If you 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.400 remove a kyote, then another kayote comes in and replaces 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.920 he or she very very quickly. We know that with 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.680 kayot with kayots in general. But if you release them 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:20.040 sterilized and you leave their hormonal systems in place, they 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.800 don't know that they're sterile. They continue to maintain space, 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:28.160 they maintain their pairs, they continue to try to breathe, 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:32.440 but they don't produce pups. You leave those sterile kyotes 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.840 out there until you can go in and insert a 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:41.000 wolf a wolf pair into that territory and you allow 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.000 the wolf to usurp that space that that kayote was using. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.880 And as some people listen to that and they go, wow, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.920 that's crazy, uh, that it had been used previously. And 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.880 when that methods started being used by the US Factionalilife Service, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:07.000 the recovery program continued to flourish um And what you 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.320 actually saw was a stair step across the landscape of 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:18.600 wolf territories packs that were intact and they were fighting off, 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:24.720 if you will, kaya infiltration, because a wolf pack can 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.360 take care of itself relative to coyotes that are coming 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.880 in trying to to infiltrate the area. In other words, 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:39.320 they fight, kill, expel kayats from their territories. So at 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.840 some point, and this was around the mid two thousands, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.240 mid to late two thousand's, you had a hundred and 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.840 fifties shred wolves across the landscape. You had intact territories, 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.480 large packs, and they were maintaining themselves through this adaptive 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:01.400 management program that was, you know, a fairly heavy handed, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.600 constant type of approach where you know, the Fish Walife Service, 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.960 the recovery program. Biologists were constantly monitoring animals as you 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.200 can imagine, they were constantly trapping, They were constantly trying 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.840 to determine when a coyote showed up, was that kaya 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.040 paired with a wolf? Was a wolf paired with a coyote. 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.880 If a wolf was lost to gunshot, mortality or vehicle collision, 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.280 well who did he or she pair with? As you 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:32.200 can imagine, this was essentially a year round activity that 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.400 these biologists conducted to keep to keep this population and 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:41.320 you know intact. And what are those wolves feed. None 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.840 Red wolves eat a lot of deer um. They eat 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:50.440 other things as you can imagine, you know, fifty sixty 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:55.200 pound cane id that's living in a pack. In North Carolina, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.920 they can eat pretty much whatever they want. So you 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:05.359 see deer, raccoons, anything mammal wise they would tend to eat. 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.760 But deer was a was a primary prey item. And 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.440 our residents in this area on this peninsula, with a 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.879 hundred and fifty of them, are residents seeing them frequently, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.600 like like wolves are sort of a part of their life. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.159 Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, as you can imagine if you 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.520 go to northeast North Carolina, you see kind of wood lots, 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.760 you know, in these precosin wetland areas and and there's 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:37.000 a lot of agriculture and wolves being a fairly large animal, Yeah, 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.639 you see them all the time, you know, if and 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.800 they what we've showed, what are the research that we 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.240 were doing. I did a lot of research in that 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:51.040 area obviously with students graduate students. Um is those wolves 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.960 used agricultural fields a lot, So they hung out in 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.560 those fields, they raised pups in those fields, they hunted 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:04.760 in those yields, so they were readily observed. Did they 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:08.800 did they run into trouble with livestock predation much at all? 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:14.040 Not a lot um you know, you you'd see occasional losses, 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:19.480 and the Fishing Wilife Service their recovery program biologists at 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.880 the time they're there now gone. They most of them, 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.720 they're few on on site. They maintained really close working 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.600 relationships with the local landowners and if there were issues 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:35.800 with with livestock take they address those issues. Um. But 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.800 that landscape is a pretty prey rich landscape. The deer 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.320 density in that area is quite high, so you didn't 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.920 see a lot of livestock issues, and there was broad 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:51.800 support from the public for wolves being there. Of course, 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.680 as you which public though, like the public meaning North 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.480 Carolina in general, or the public meeting the residents of 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:05.360 the peninsul both both there there there was broad support 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:09.920 both locally and and across the state for the wolf 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.800 being there. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure you're familiar with 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.399 the phenomenon of UM. When you pull people in a 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:20.080 state about who loves wolves, they tend to score lower 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.159 among the people that lived by them than they do 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.760 the people that are in cities thinking about them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.560 yeah yeah. So obviously, you know, you you could it 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.000 was a lot easier to find somebody in Dare County 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.760 or Hyde County, North Carolina that had that wasn't in 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.080 favor of wolves than there was in Charlotte, North Carolina. 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.320 You know that that wasn't experiencing kind of day to 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.080 day life with the wolf. Yeah. Absolutely, but in a 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.840 broad sense there was. There was There was a lot 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.560 of support for the for the wolf being there. So 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:55.840 we go from such broad support, which is a little 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.119 surprising to me. I've spent a fair minded time up 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.200 in that country, and uh, it's not the country where 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.680 I would expect the locals to be like, yeah, wolves 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:09.040 kicking around and eating our deer. So what happened? Yeah, 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:12.720 So you know, despite the fact that there was broad support, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.000 you know, not everybody is is pro wolf, And I 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:21.920 will say, you know, and it's heyday. The recovery program. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:26.760 Part of the reason that that the interactions between the 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:31.160 wolf and the private landowners was kept on a kind 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.480 of a positive was the recovery program. Biologists worked their 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:41.200 asses off, educating people, talking with people, trying to help 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:46.200 mitigate any concerns or complaints with the wolf. Um those 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.800 biologists would go on and and obviously they needed access 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.760 to private lands to trap wolves every year as part 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.840 of the adaptive management program, so they had a really 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.400 strong working relationship with those with those local land owners, 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.920 and they were able to walk up to the front 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:08.560 door and and have a forth right, honest conversation about 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.919 concerns that those landowners expressed. So when there was a 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.680 wolf that was was a problem, Chris lu Cash or 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.000 or one of the other biologists would go knock on 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.080 the door and have a conversation, and and sometimes those 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.520 conversations were very pointed and very difficult, but that willingness 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.760 to go have those conversations was one of the reasons 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:36.040 that the program continued to flourish um And then all 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.840 of a sudden, and it wasn't really sudden, but what 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:45.040 we started seeing around the mid two thousand's was an 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:51.840 increase in gunshot mortalities. As an aside um, when the 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.679 red wolf was restored to that part of the world, 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:59.280 they were considered as a non essential population and therefore 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:04.800 they did not carry the same protections as other species 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:11.160 would under the Endangered Species Act. So shooting a wolf 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.480 in mistakingly shooting a wolf did not carry the same 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:21.040 consequences as it would in other areas. So what started 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:26.120 happening around the mid two thousand's is gunshot mortality started skyrocketing, 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:31.320 and part of that was was mistaking identity. You know, 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.200 someone thinking they were shooting at a coyote or honestly 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.960 not caring what they we're shooting at. They it was 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.800 a canaid of some kind, and and they shot it. 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:46.640 And we started seeing that with this gunshot mortality, that 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.640 all of a sudden, these breeding pairs were being dissolved 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:52.800 because of of us, because of humans. And what I 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:54.960 mean by that is, you know, you had this pack 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.480 and all of a sudden, you lose the breeding female 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:02.160 or the breeding male, and chaos and sues and those 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:07.800 packs started being whittled away by gunshot mortalities. Instead of ten, 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:10.480 there were six. Instead of six, there were three. And 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.560 now all of a sudden, the pack dissolves, and now 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:20.040 you're essentially managing in favor of a coyote and against 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.960 a wolf, because coyotes weren't numerically superior and still are. 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:28.600 Was the was the gunshot mortality? Was that a concerted 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.639 effort or do you think there was? It was just randomness, 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:37.040 but but an increasing randomness. I think there was probably 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:42.479 and this is me, this is me speaking um just 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:46.240 kind of a from a logical person's perspective, not an academic. 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:48.920 I think it was both, Steve, You know, you you 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.879 probably had some people that I don't say probably. We 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.879 know there were people that targeted wolves, and we also 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.760 know from our own field interactions with people that there 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:01.000 were some people that legitim and Lee thought they were 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.720 shooting a coyote and and we're shocked, were stunned that 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.360 they had killed a red wolf and weren't happy about it. 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:09.960 You know that that they were not pleased with themselves 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:12.800 that that they had done that. So it was a 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:15.880 combination of both. And honestly, I think part of it 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:22.280 centered around the kind of the narrative, the rhetoric that 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:26.359 you started seeing in the Deep South around two thousand five, 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.280 two thousand and six, you started seeing a lot of 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:35.520 discussion about coyotes and their impacts on game species. And 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.240 this is my this is my speculation, but it seems 0:24:39.240 --> 0:24:44.040 a bit coincidental that we started seeing these issues skyrocket 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:47.000 about the time A lot of that that rhetoric was 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:51.240 going around, and people like me were actually part of 0:24:51.280 --> 0:24:53.760 that because we were we were publishing a lot of 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:57.080 information at the time about the importance of coyotes on 0:24:57.160 --> 0:25:00.200 deer populations and how they can affect dear population, and 0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.320 there was a lot of talk and there still is 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:09.600 a lot of talk about the coyote being a problem 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:13.000 for dear populations and therefore if we didn't have the coyote, 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:17.760 we would have more hunting and harvest opportunities. And I 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.159 think the red wolf in some ways got caught up 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:25.240 in that, and that's that's truly truly unfortunate. But so 0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:29.560 you started seeing a lot of gunshot mortalities. The population 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:34.760 started declining. At the same time, you started seeing issues 0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:40.199 with with private landowners that were politically connected UM clamoring 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:45.040 for uh a lack of protection for wolves, clamoring for 0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.199 the US Fishing Wilife Service to remove wolves from private 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:52.600 lands and put them back on public lands quote unquote 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.840 where they belonged. UM. There was pressure on the Fishing 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.000 Wildife Service to issue take permits where wolves could be 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:07.159 taken on private lands because they were quote unquote a problem. 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:10.960 And that was pretty much the beginning of what I 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:16.399 consider now to be the end. Is the wolf population plummeted. 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:23.359 UM A series of lawsuits resulted. Those lawsuits involved the 0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:26.920 State of North Carolina, the US Fishing Wildlife Service private groups, 0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:35.439 and basically the outcome predictably was poor for the wolf. 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:38.440 And now what you have is you have the Fishing 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:43.479 Wildlife Service that has abandoned the recovery program. They have 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:48.919 UM basically said we're only going to quote unquote managed 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:52.200 this species and captivity and we're going to let them 0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:57.600 do their own thing as wolves on federal lands on 0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:02.320 the peninsula. And now, as you mentioned at the opener, 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:05.200 we have just a handful of red wolves left in 0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:09.000 the wild. The remainder of them have been assimilated into 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:13.600 the Kayote population as hybrids. And if you want to 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.520 go see a red wolf, if you can't get your 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:19.080 eyes on that tin or so that are left out there, 0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:22.840 you need to go to a zoo. UM and that 0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:26.560 in about fifteen minutes is what I consider the sad 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:31.600 and unfortunate um recovery and then loss of law red wolves. 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:37.000 Is there not another place across its historical range where 0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:41.919 maybe people and in the state would would welcome the population. 0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:46.000 Has that been discussed? Yes, it has, guys. We we 0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:48.840 and I say we have only been tangential in some 0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:52.480 of these conversations, but yeah, there's been a lot of 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:55.919 discussion about well, Okay, could we go somewhere else with 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:59.399 these animals? And as an aside, and I didn't I 0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:02.280