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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, stay longer,

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Speaker 1: quick note up top. Um, But of sad news. If

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Speaker 1: you go way back in our in our library of

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Speaker 1: episodes to episode one, which was called Adaptive Hunting and Fishing,

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Speaker 1: you will find a pretty inspiring interview with a guy

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Speaker 1: named Chris Clasby. Um, he had had an accident. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember, I feel like I can't. Was a diving No,

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Speaker 1: it was a vehicle vehicle accident. Yeah, I think sixteen

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Speaker 1: or seventeen, pretty paralyzed from the neck down. Um, but

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Speaker 1: I had enjoyed hunting and fishing, you know, and even

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Speaker 1: had worked with people to devise and and and fine tune.

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Speaker 1: I remember, like a way to cast a rod. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he can cast spinning rod reel it in. H did

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Speaker 1: shoot a rifle, did some hunting his hunting body basically

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Speaker 1: didn't hunt, but just helped. Like they just teamed up

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Speaker 1: to try to help Chris. They don't have experiences anyways,

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Speaker 1: Chris Classy passed away UM related to his condition, started

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Speaker 1: having a difficult time breathing and and um, I think

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Speaker 1: that he always kind of assumed he would not live

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Speaker 1: to be an old man. But condolences to Chris Clasby's

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Speaker 1: family and friends. And again episode one Adaptive Hunting and Fishing.

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Speaker 1: I think we yeah, we recorded that here, not here here,

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Speaker 1: but here. It was in Bozeman. It was actually the

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Speaker 1: last day that I was ever in the old Bozeman

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Speaker 1: ZPC office. I remember it was cleared out. It was

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Speaker 1: there's just a table sitting and I remember that you

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Speaker 1: were in there. But no, it's a it's a good episode.

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Speaker 1: Everybody should go back and listen to that one and

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Speaker 1: you'll realize that whatever your problems are, they're not as

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Speaker 1: big as you think they are. Yeah, that's a good point. Um,

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Speaker 1: moving down here. So you know, I've said in recent episodes,

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Speaker 1: I'm always talking about how the only thing that should

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Speaker 1: be allowed on Instagram is the Turkey dock. Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Instagram said the Instagram should be called the Turkey Dock

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Speaker 1: and that's the only page you can follow. But I said, like,

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Speaker 1: if there was two, yeah, yeah, you should be able

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Speaker 1: to follow Nature's medal. Um, if you hadn't really had

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Speaker 1: to follow something else, you could choose that. Well, we

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Speaker 1: just found out something quite titillating about the Turkey dock.

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Speaker 1: Mike Chamberlain, who been on the show before here in

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Speaker 1: the studio. He's been on the show in a sort

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Speaker 1: of more ethereal way right where he we just had

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Speaker 1: his voice because Karin conducted an off interview with him

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Speaker 1: and then we played, so we were like playing a

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Speaker 1: recorded interview. But uh, Dr Chamberlain came up recently because

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Speaker 1: we were reading the thing that about the the what

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Speaker 1: the hell you even calm? The Red Wolf of the

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Speaker 1: Southeastern US, whatever partis, I'm messing up, Uh, Mike Chamberlain.

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Speaker 1: Le square is the way on. But there's only like

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Speaker 1: basically none left next to none left, um. And we

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Speaker 1: were kind of hunting around to try to find someone

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Speaker 1: who understood this world so they could explain the saga

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Speaker 1: of the Red Wolf of the Eastern Um of the

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Speaker 1: Deep Southeast or we're into Texas red Wolf. And the

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Speaker 1: first guy we went to was a real wolf expert

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Speaker 1: that we're I was talking about halfle Finger James Halflefinger,

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Speaker 1: halfle Finger Um says, I know a lot about a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, and I don't like to talk about

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Speaker 1: things I don't know about and red wolves are one

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Speaker 1: of them. But he said happened just so happens that

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Speaker 1: the Turkey dock is not just the Turkey dock. He's

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Speaker 1: like the red wolf dock. So we reached out and

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Speaker 1: Mike Chamberlain is joining us remotely here and he's gonna

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Speaker 1: give us a rundown on what the hell happened to

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Speaker 1: the red wolf, Like, what happened to it, what's happening

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Speaker 1: to it now? And why are there now articles saying

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Speaker 1: there's ten y Yeah, yeah, that's that's right. That's right.

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Speaker 1: It's been quite as sorted, uh assorted past if you will. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so so red wolves. You mentioned that Steve red wolves

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Speaker 1: were historically the the Canaan in the Southeast. They were

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Speaker 1: the they were the top predator, if you will, um

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Speaker 1: intermediate in size between gray wolves and and coyote, so

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Speaker 1: not as large as a gray wolf and quite a

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Speaker 1: bit bigger than a kayote. For for many many years

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Speaker 1: they were the they were the top dog in the South,

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Speaker 1: and then, as human beings are apt to do, we

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Speaker 1: we extirpated them for most of their range. Part of

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Speaker 1: that was just conflicts with humans, part of it was

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Speaker 1: it was basically government mandated and and funded eradication programs

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Speaker 1: too to get rid of the wolf for for human desires,

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Speaker 1: if you will, Hey, let me let me let me

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Speaker 1: heat with this. About the range though, um, because I

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Speaker 1: know that we talked about him now in the southeast

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Speaker 1: Virginia to Texas. But like the wolves that Daniel Boone encountered,

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Speaker 1: Like I remember a guy and Daniel Boone's hunting party

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Speaker 1: once got bit by a wolf and then got rabies

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Speaker 1: and developed hydrophobia and died. Would that have been a

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Speaker 1: red wolf in Kentucky? Yes? So when when when the

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Speaker 1: frontiers mean we're talking about wolves, they're talking about red wolves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: basically from latitude Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky south to the Gulf

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Speaker 1: Coast and then over to eastern Texas. Yep, got it, Okay,

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Speaker 1: go on. Yeah. So so we removed the red wolf

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Speaker 1: um for most of its range. And then there was

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Speaker 1: a pocket of of wolves slash hybrid animals that kind

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Speaker 1: of persisted in southwest Louisiana. And in the nineties seventies, UM,

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Speaker 1: the US Fishing Wildlife Service went in and and captured

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Speaker 1: as many of those animals as they could and using

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Speaker 1: what we thought at the time, This is what a

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Speaker 1: red wolf looks like. This is how big they are,

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Speaker 1: this is what they're their appearances. They selected animals out

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Speaker 1: of those captured animals and they considered them as pure

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Speaker 1: red wolves, and they moved them to um captive breeding

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Speaker 1: situations and they started a captive breeding program. What had

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Speaker 1: they been hybridizing with? What had they been hybridizing with

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Speaker 1: in in Louisiana? Was it not domestic dogs but coyotes?

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Speaker 1: Was kayats And basically what you had and you guys

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Speaker 1: know this, So you had this, You had this pocket

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Speaker 1: of wolves that were left, and then you had this

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Speaker 1: swarm of kayotes that you know, they're numerically superior. And

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Speaker 1: as they kind of moved into areas where wolves were,

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Speaker 1: they hybridized with with wolves because they're numerically superior. And um,

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Speaker 1: so you had all sorts of wolf like preachers. You know,

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Speaker 1: you had animals that were that were hybrids between kyotes

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Speaker 1: and red wolves. Those animals were were removed and the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote pure red wolves became founders for what is

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Speaker 1: now the red wolf that we know as a species.

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Speaker 1: Um those ended up being fourteen That quick question when

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Speaker 1: the hybridization happens. Is it usually female coyote male red

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Speaker 1: wolf or vice versa, or would it go both ways?

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Speaker 1: It goes both ways, but it tends to be smaller

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Speaker 1: red wolves, that's what that's what we've seen. The smaller

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Speaker 1: red wolves tend to be the ones that that hybridize

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Speaker 1: with kyos, which makes sense because there without going too

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Speaker 1: far in the weeds, you know, wolves are bigger, so

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Speaker 1: they can use more space, they can eat larger prey

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Speaker 1: more efficiently, so a smaller wolf would be closer in

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Speaker 1: size to a coyote, so they would be more compatible

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Speaker 1: when it comes to pairing together and using a home

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Speaker 1: range together because they're they're comparable in size, if that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. If you do mean smaller like as in

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Speaker 1: younger or smaller as in just smaller stature or even

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Speaker 1: at maturity, smaller as a you know, morphologically smaller, they

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Speaker 1: weigh less, they're they're shorter, shorter ear, shorter legs, you know, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: So morphologically they look quote unquote more like a kaya

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Speaker 1: than say a larger wolf would. That's the wolves that

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Speaker 1: we see as being the hybridization issues, which makes sense.

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Speaker 1: But but to Yanni's but I want to make sure.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if you caught Yanni's

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Speaker 1: question the particulars of it, but he's saying, like, is

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Speaker 1: it generally that uh, a male red wolf breeds of

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Speaker 1: female coyote or vice versa place it goes Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you did catch that. Yeah, yeah, it goes both ways.

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Speaker 1: It just tends to be. It tends to be size

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Speaker 1: driven in particular as you would expect. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: and I'd have to go back and look at our date.

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Speaker 1: I think it tended to it tends to be more

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Speaker 1: prominent with a with a smaller male wolf and a

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Speaker 1: female kayote. But but that's kind of getting too far

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Speaker 1: into weeds. But the bottom line is, yes, both males

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Speaker 1: and females will hybridize with coyotes. Yes. So those fourteen

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Speaker 1: founders became became what is now the red wolf, and

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Speaker 1: for years the Fishing Wildlife Service, through cooperation with zoos

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Speaker 1: and um island propagation sites off the East coast, bread

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Speaker 1: red wolves, and the idea was to eventually create a

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Speaker 1: wild population, uh, somewhere else other than where they were

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Speaker 1: removed from the wild, which was southwest Louisiana, and that

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Speaker 1: that happened in the late nineteen eighties. Those wolves were say,

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Speaker 1: those captive bread wolves were moved and released on the

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Speaker 1: Albemar Peninsula peninsula, which is northeast North Carolina. And the

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Speaker 1: reasons for that were many. One, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: federal and state lands in that area. Two, there are

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Speaker 1: not a lot of human beings in that area. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's an agricultural type landscape um with large private landowners.

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Speaker 1: And there were no coyotes there at the time. So

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Speaker 1: in seven those animals, you know, the first releases occurred

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Speaker 1: and from there you saw a fairly rapid increase in

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Speaker 1: the in the red wolf population Mike during that time

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Speaker 1: when they did that, knowing what you run into when

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Speaker 1: you get coyotes, was there anything that could be done

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Speaker 1: or was attempted to be done to keep that Knowing

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Speaker 1: that kyotes are spreading everywhere and moving into areas they

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Speaker 1: had never been before, was there anything like a plan

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Speaker 1: to prevent Kyle from getting in there, not not per

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Speaker 1: se keep kyodes from getting there. But once they did

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Speaker 1: get there, there was an immediate recognition that there needed

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Speaker 1: to be an adaptive management program in place. And what

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Speaker 1: I mean by that is, as soon as kayote started

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Speaker 1: infiltrating the recovery area, if you will, which was a

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Speaker 1: five county area. As soon as kaya started getting in there,

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Speaker 1: the Fishing Wildlife Service realized they were going to have

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Speaker 1: to have a plan to mitigate this hybridization potential that

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Speaker 1: we knew existed with this with this sees. And that's

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Speaker 1: really when the more kind of hands on management of

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Speaker 1: the wolf began and what that program this was. This

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Speaker 1: came about in the late nineteen nineties. There was a

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Speaker 1: workshop convened. I actually attended that workshop as a graduate student.

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Speaker 1: I was, I was in all of the people I was,

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Speaker 1: I was sitting around because they were the gods of

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Speaker 1: of the wolf and coyote world. But anyway, the outcome

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Speaker 1: of that workshop, which was dedicated to trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out what do we do moving forward knowing that kayots

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Speaker 1: are there and they'll hybridize with wolves. And the outcome

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Speaker 1: of that was an adaptive management program where the U

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Speaker 1: S Fishalilife Service would go in and capture kayotes that

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Speaker 1: had infiltrated into the recovery area. They rather than euthanized them,

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Speaker 1: they would sterilize them and released them as sterile placeholders.

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Speaker 1: And the reason for that was was simple. If you

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Speaker 1: remove a kyote, then another kayote comes in and replaces

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Speaker 1: he or she very very quickly. We know that with

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Speaker 1: kayot with kayots in general. But if you release them

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Speaker 1: sterilized and you leave their hormonal systems in place, they

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Speaker 1: don't know that they're sterile. They continue to maintain space,

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Speaker 1: they maintain their pairs, they continue to try to breathe,

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Speaker 1: but they don't produce pups. You leave those sterile kyotes

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Speaker 1: out there until you can go in and insert a

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Speaker 1: wolf a wolf pair into that territory and you allow

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Speaker 1: the wolf to usurp that space that that kayote was using.

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Speaker 1: And as some people listen to that and they go, wow,

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Speaker 1: that's crazy, uh, that it had been used previously. And

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Speaker 1: when that methods started being used by the US Factionalilife Service,

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Speaker 1: the recovery program continued to flourish um And what you

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Speaker 1: actually saw was a stair step across the landscape of

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Speaker 1: wolf territories packs that were intact and they were fighting off,

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Speaker 1: if you will, kaya infiltration, because a wolf pack can

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Speaker 1: take care of itself relative to coyotes that are coming

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Speaker 1: in trying to to infiltrate the area. In other words,

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Speaker 1: they fight, kill, expel kayats from their territories. So at

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Speaker 1: some point, and this was around the mid two thousands,

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Speaker 1: mid to late two thousand's, you had a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifties shred wolves across the landscape. You had intact territories,

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Speaker 1: large packs, and they were maintaining themselves through this adaptive

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Speaker 1: management program that was, you know, a fairly heavy handed,

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Speaker 1: constant type of approach where you know, the Fish Walife Service,

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Speaker 1: the recovery program. Biologists were constantly monitoring animals as you

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Speaker 1: can imagine, they were constantly trapping, They were constantly trying

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Speaker 1: to determine when a coyote showed up, was that kaya

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Speaker 1: paired with a wolf? Was a wolf paired with a coyote.

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Speaker 1: If a wolf was lost to gunshot, mortality or vehicle collision,

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Speaker 1: well who did he or she pair with? As you

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Speaker 1: can imagine, this was essentially a year round activity that

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Speaker 1: these biologists conducted to keep to keep this population and

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Speaker 1: you know intact. And what are those wolves feed. None

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Speaker 1: Red wolves eat a lot of deer um. They eat

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Speaker 1: other things as you can imagine, you know, fifty sixty

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Speaker 1: pound cane id that's living in a pack. In North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: they can eat pretty much whatever they want. So you

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Speaker 1: see deer, raccoons, anything mammal wise they would tend to eat.

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Speaker 1: But deer was a was a primary prey item. And

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Speaker 1: our residents in this area on this peninsula, with a

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty of them, are residents seeing them frequently,

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Speaker 1: like like wolves are sort of a part of their life.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, as you can imagine if you

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Speaker 1: go to northeast North Carolina, you see kind of wood lots,

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Speaker 1: you know, in these precosin wetland areas and and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of agriculture and wolves being a fairly large animal, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you see them all the time, you know, if and

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Speaker 1: they what we've showed, what are the research that we

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Speaker 1: were doing. I did a lot of research in that

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Speaker 1: area obviously with students graduate students. Um is those wolves

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Speaker 1: used agricultural fields a lot, So they hung out in

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Speaker 1: those fields, they raised pups in those fields, they hunted

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Speaker 1: in those yields, so they were readily observed. Did they

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Speaker 1: did they run into trouble with livestock predation much at all?

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Speaker 1: Not a lot um you know, you you'd see occasional losses,

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Speaker 1: and the Fishing Wilife Service their recovery program biologists at

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Speaker 1: the time they're there now gone. They most of them,

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Speaker 1: they're few on on site. They maintained really close working

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Speaker 1: relationships with the local landowners and if there were issues

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Speaker 1: with with livestock take they address those issues. Um. But

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Speaker 1: that landscape is a pretty prey rich landscape. The deer

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Speaker 1: density in that area is quite high, so you didn't

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Speaker 1: see a lot of livestock issues, and there was broad

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Speaker 1: support from the public for wolves being there. Of course,

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Speaker 1: as you which public though, like the public meaning North

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Speaker 1: Carolina in general, or the public meeting the residents of

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Speaker 1: the peninsul both both there there there was broad support

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Speaker 1: both locally and and across the state for the wolf

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Speaker 1: being there. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure you're familiar with

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Speaker 1: the phenomenon of UM. When you pull people in a

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Speaker 1: state about who loves wolves, they tend to score lower

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Speaker 1: among the people that lived by them than they do

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Speaker 1: the people that are in cities thinking about them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah. So obviously, you know, you you could it

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Speaker 1: was a lot easier to find somebody in Dare County

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Speaker 1: or Hyde County, North Carolina that had that wasn't in

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Speaker 1: favor of wolves than there was in Charlotte, North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: You know that that wasn't experiencing kind of day to

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Speaker 1: day life with the wolf. Yeah. Absolutely, but in a

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Speaker 1: broad sense there was. There was There was a lot

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Speaker 1: of support for the for the wolf being there. So

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Speaker 1: we go from such broad support, which is a little

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Speaker 1: surprising to me. I've spent a fair minded time up

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Speaker 1: in that country, and uh, it's not the country where

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Speaker 1: I would expect the locals to be like, yeah, wolves

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Speaker 1: kicking around and eating our deer. So what happened? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So you know, despite the fact that there was broad support,

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Speaker 1: you know, not everybody is is pro wolf, And I

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Speaker 1: will say, you know, and it's heyday. The recovery program.

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Speaker 1: Part of the reason that that the interactions between the

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Speaker 1: wolf and the private landowners was kept on a kind

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Speaker 1: of a positive was the recovery program. Biologists worked their

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Speaker 1: asses off, educating people, talking with people, trying to help

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Speaker 1: mitigate any concerns or complaints with the wolf. Um those

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Speaker 1: biologists would go on and and obviously they needed access

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Speaker 1: to private lands to trap wolves every year as part

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Speaker 1: of the adaptive management program, so they had a really

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Speaker 1: strong working relationship with those with those local land owners,

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Speaker 1: and they were able to walk up to the front

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Speaker 1: door and and have a forth right, honest conversation about

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Speaker 1: concerns that those landowners expressed. So when there was a

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Speaker 1: wolf that was was a problem, Chris lu Cash or

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Speaker 1: or one of the other biologists would go knock on

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Speaker 1: the door and have a conversation, and and sometimes those

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Speaker 1: conversations were very pointed and very difficult, but that willingness

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Speaker 1: to go have those conversations was one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that the program continued to flourish um And then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, and it wasn't really sudden, but what

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Speaker 1: we started seeing around the mid two thousand's was an

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Speaker 1: increase in gunshot mortalities. As an aside um, when the

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Speaker 1: red wolf was restored to that part of the world,

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Speaker 1: they were considered as a non essential population and therefore

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Speaker 1: they did not carry the same protections as other species

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Speaker 1: would under the Endangered Species Act. So shooting a wolf

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Speaker 1: in mistakingly shooting a wolf did not carry the same

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Speaker 1: consequences as it would in other areas. So what started

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Speaker 1: happening around the mid two thousand's is gunshot mortality started skyrocketing,

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Speaker 1: and part of that was was mistaking identity. You know,

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Speaker 1: someone thinking they were shooting at a coyote or honestly

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Speaker 1: not caring what they we're shooting at. They it was

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Speaker 1: a canaid of some kind, and and they shot it.

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Speaker 1: And we started seeing that with this gunshot mortality, that

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, these breeding pairs were being dissolved

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Speaker 1: because of of us, because of humans. And what I

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Speaker 1: mean by that is, you know, you had this pack

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you lose the breeding female

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Speaker 1: or the breeding male, and chaos and sues and those

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Speaker 1: packs started being whittled away by gunshot mortalities. Instead of ten,

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Speaker 1: there were six. Instead of six, there were three. And

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Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, the pack dissolves, and now

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Speaker 1: you're essentially managing in favor of a coyote and against

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Speaker 1: a wolf, because coyotes weren't numerically superior and still are.

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Speaker 1: Was the was the gunshot mortality? Was that a concerted

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Speaker 1: effort or do you think there was? It was just randomness,

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Speaker 1: but but an increasing randomness. I think there was probably

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Speaker 1: and this is me, this is me speaking um just

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Speaker 1: kind of a from a logical person's perspective, not an academic.

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Speaker 1: I think it was both, Steve, You know, you you

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Speaker 1: probably had some people that I don't say probably. We

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Speaker 1: know there were people that targeted wolves, and we also

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Speaker 1: know from our own field interactions with people that there

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Speaker 1: were some people that legitim and Lee thought they were

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Speaker 1: shooting a coyote and and we're shocked, were stunned that

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Speaker 1: they had killed a red wolf and weren't happy about it.

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Speaker 1: You know that that they were not pleased with themselves

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Speaker 1: that that they had done that. So it was a

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Speaker 1: combination of both. And honestly, I think part of it

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Speaker 1: centered around the kind of the narrative, the rhetoric that

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Speaker 1: you started seeing in the Deep South around two thousand five,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, you started seeing a lot of

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Speaker 1: discussion about coyotes and their impacts on game species. And

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Speaker 1: this is my this is my speculation, but it seems

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Speaker 1: a bit coincidental that we started seeing these issues skyrocket

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Speaker 1: about the time A lot of that that rhetoric was

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Speaker 1: going around, and people like me were actually part of

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Speaker 1: that because we were we were publishing a lot of

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Speaker 1: information at the time about the importance of coyotes on

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Speaker 1: deer populations and how they can affect dear population, and

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of talk and there still is

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Speaker 1: a lot of talk about the coyote being a problem

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Speaker 1: for dear populations and therefore if we didn't have the coyote,

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Speaker 1: we would have more hunting and harvest opportunities. And I

364
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Speaker 1: think the red wolf in some ways got caught up

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Speaker 1: in that, and that's that's truly truly unfortunate. But so

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Speaker 1: you started seeing a lot of gunshot mortalities. The population

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Speaker 1: started declining. At the same time, you started seeing issues

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Speaker 1: with with private landowners that were politically connected UM clamoring

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Speaker 1: for uh a lack of protection for wolves, clamoring for

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Speaker 1: the US Fishing Wilife Service to remove wolves from private

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Speaker 1: lands and put them back on public lands quote unquote

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Speaker 1: where they belonged. UM. There was pressure on the Fishing

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Speaker 1: Wildife Service to issue take permits where wolves could be

374
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Speaker 1: taken on private lands because they were quote unquote a problem.

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Speaker 1: And that was pretty much the beginning of what I

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Speaker 1: consider now to be the end. Is the wolf population plummeted.

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Speaker 1: UM A series of lawsuits resulted. Those lawsuits involved the

378
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Speaker 1: State of North Carolina, the US Fishing Wildlife Service private groups,

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Speaker 1: and basically the outcome predictably was poor for the wolf.

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Speaker 1: And now what you have is you have the Fishing

381
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Speaker 1: Wildlife Service that has abandoned the recovery program. They have

382
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Speaker 1: UM basically said we're only going to quote unquote managed

383
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Speaker 1: this species and captivity and we're going to let them

384
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Speaker 1: do their own thing as wolves on federal lands on

385
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Speaker 1: the peninsula. And now, as you mentioned at the opener,

386
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Speaker 1: we have just a handful of red wolves left in

387
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Speaker 1: the wild. The remainder of them have been assimilated into

388
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: the Kayote population as hybrids. And if you want to

389
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: go see a red wolf, if you can't get your

390
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: eyes on that tin or so that are left out there,

391
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: you need to go to a zoo. UM and that

392
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Speaker 1: in about fifteen minutes is what I consider the sad

393
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: and unfortunate um recovery and then loss of law red wolves.

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Speaker 1: Is there not another place across its historical range where

395
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: maybe people and in the state would would welcome the population.

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Speaker 1: Has that been discussed? Yes, it has, guys. We we

397
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Speaker 1: and I say we have only been tangential in some

398
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: of these conversations, but yeah, there's been a lot of

399
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Speaker 1: discussion about well, Okay, could we go somewhere else with

400
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: these animals? And as an aside, and I didn't I

401
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: didn't mention this, but that's a great question. This was

402
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: attempted a second time, so after the population on the

403
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: Peninsula got got rolling, the Fishmaller Service also tried this

404
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: in Great Smoky Mountain National Park. And if you've if

405
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: you've visited that beautiful part of the world, you know

406
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: that it's very rugged. Um there's a lot of federal

407
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: land there, but there are not a tremendous number of

408
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: deer and other prey items in most of the Smokies

409
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Speaker 1: Outside of these um these open kind of manage early

410
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: successful areas like Cade's Cove and some of those places.

411
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Speaker 1: So what happened in that in that instance, the wolves

412
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: were released in the park and they almost immediately went

413
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: to private lands and went down to lower elevation areas

414
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: where there's agricultural properties. And of course they encountered some

415
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: some problems with people there, uh pulp survival and that

416
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: study was very very low, almost zero. So it didn't

417
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: take long for the Fishing Wilife Service to pull that

418
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: that effort and put those animals back in the North

419
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: Carolina into the album or peninsula because that effort was

420
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Speaker 1: a failure. Since then, yes, there have been discussions on okay,

421
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: well where do we go from here? Could we go

422
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: somewhere else? And there are areas that in many ways

423
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: are are suitable for wolves. The problem is twofold. One

424
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: is us as humans and two is the recognition that

425
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: you don't have anywhere in the Southeast that is absent

426
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: of cayats. So this issue that that the recovery program

427
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: ran into again, that the sterilization and release of of

428
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: sterile place holders that would need to be conducted wherever

429
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: we go with this wolf um and and it was

430
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: working right well, you know, as we meant, as we discussed,

431
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: but but that is something that would have to be

432
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: in place. Do you think that with new leadership um

433
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: with with a new administration and new leadership at the

434
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: US Fish and Wildlife Service, do you imagine that there

435
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: might be a real about face in the next couple

436
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: of years and that they might reinitiate this and then

437
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: I'll hate My second question right now is we know

438
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: that we don't win. We know that we can't win

439
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: every conservation fight. And there's such a thing as throwing

440
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: good money after bad mm hmm. What's you take on that. Yeah,

441
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: the answer to the first question is is no, I don't.

442
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: I don't see uh uh about face, um, unless it's

443
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: perhaps a half hearted about face. And and maybe that's

444
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: a maybe that's a jaded um and a sarcastic answer.

445
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: But you asked me the question, and that's my honest

446
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: that's my honest assessment is given given the past, I don't.

447
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: I don't see, regardless of a change in administration, I

448
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: don't see about face unless it's again a half hearted um,

449
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: not really a genuine about face the good money bad man, Steve.

450
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: That's a good question. And as you can imagine this,

451
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: this program costs money. I mean, it cost money to

452
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: do this. It costs money to pay the people that

453
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: that did this, It costs money to have the framework

454
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 1: in place, the logistics in place. These animals were monitored

455
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: weekly by airplanes, as many wolves and other populations are,

456
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: so there. Yeah, there was a lot of expense associated

457
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: with this program, and there would be. There will be

458
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: if they continue it, if they expand it, there will be.

459
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: And that competition for resources is certainly something that that

460
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: would be at play. Yeah, and that's some of the

461
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: some of the anti wolf rhetoric, if you will, that

462
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: was generated in the late two thousand's and early two

463
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: thousand's that resulted in a lot of those there's lawsuits.

464
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: That was one of the complaints is you know, look

465
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: how much money is being spent on this program and

466
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: for for what? This is what the critics were saying,

467
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: and for what for so that we can have a

468
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: wolf in North Carolina that we constantly have to help that.

469
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: This was one of their arguments. What's that? What's that term?

470
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: Remember when we had John mu Aluman, the author John

471
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: MoU Alum, he introduced the terms that hadn't heard before

472
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: was something like conservation reliance. What's that expression? Yeah, yeah,

473
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: conservation reli. It is like a conservation reliance species, like

474
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: it's only gonna cut it if we're putting time money,

475
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: protection effort is never going to get on autopilot. Absolutely,

476
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: that's yeah. Now, the interesting sing and some of the

477
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: wolf the pro wolf people and and I won't label

478
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: myself as that, but the research was very clear if

479
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: if you had enough wolves out there, they were capable

480
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: of managing themselves. In other words, what you saw if

481
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: if you look at a map of the album or peninsula.

482
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: If you look all the way over to the east

483
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: and Derrick County, and then you moved westward, you know,

484
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: towards Raleigh Durham, on the easternmost part of the peninsula,

485
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: there were no coyotes. And what coyotes were there, there

486
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: were very few because the wolves maintained space and they

487
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: excluded coyotes from the landscape. And as you moved westward,

488
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: you moved into an area where at the far edge

489
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: there was hybridization going on, as you'd expect. But as

490
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: soon as you moved far enough east to where you

491
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: had large, intact packs of wolves, they took are of

492
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: their own business, if you will. They excluded kyotes from

493
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: those territories. And therefore, and this is something I think

494
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: is sadly ironic. Would you rather have six or eight

495
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: red wolves consuming deer or sixty two hundred kyats? And

496
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: that's what that's what you see in in wolf territories,

497
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: you only have a small number of wolves that are

498
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: eating deer or any other prey. But in the absence

499
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: of those wolves, you replaced them with the species that

500
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: uses a much smaller home range eats a much greater

501
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: diversity of prey, including many, many birds, and you replace

502
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: them in in a situation where they're now numerically two,

503
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: three or four or five times superior to the wolf

504
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: that was there. That's something that I I would often

505
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: talk to people about and and sometimes you know, it

506
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: fell on deaf ears, but that is that is something

507
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: we saw with the research. Sure, the timelines don't add

508
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: up for this what I'm gonna ask you next, They

509
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: don't add up in a real literal way, because while

510
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: they've populations can move so slowly. But would you think

511
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: it's safe to say that had we not extra pated,

512
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: wolves in the eastern US are virtually everywhere um at

513
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: a time in the lower forty eight do you, like,

514
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: would you ever look at that and be like, if

515
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: that hadn't happened, we wouldn't have had the explosion of coyotes,

516
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: or do you think it would have been inevitable? I

517
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: think it's it's kind of somewhere in a gray area

518
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: in between, because you know, removing wolves from certain parts

519
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: of our landscape was inevitable, whether we actually tried to

520
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: extirpate them or not. You know, so if you kind

521
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: of look at the Eastern United States. Um, you know,

522
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: just because of population, human population, you were going to

523
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: be in a situation where would create parts of the

524
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: landscape that a kayote can use but a wolf can't,

525
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: if that makes sense, just the urban suburban landscape. Yeah,

526
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: you can have wolves that are you have coyotes in

527
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: Central Park, but you don't you don't see many gray

528
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: wolves running around in Central Park. Yeah, thankfully. Um so, yeah,

529
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: I think there's there's probably a little in both directions

530
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: on that, but I think yes, in many broad areas,

531
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: rural areas, the removal of the wolf, there's no question

532
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 1: it's benefited the kayak. There's no question the removal of wolves,

533
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: in particular the red wolf allowed the kaya to colonize

534
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: the southeastern United States in a ridiculously fast manner. Um,

535
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: had they encountered intact wolf territories, that expansion would not

536
00:36:52,840 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: have been nearly as rapid as it has been. And Mike, Um,

537
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: why why and how is it do you think that

538
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: this is like kind of flown under the radar, like

539
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: as his population has gotten whittled down to nothing, like

540
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: you're not seeing it on the national news, like pro

541
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: wolf advocacacy groups aren't making a big deal out of it,

542
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: like anything anytime anything happens with gray wolves, like the

543
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: Wisconsin hunt or Idaho saying they're gonna kill the gray

544
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: wolf population. That is not what they said. Okay, that

545
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: is what that That is what the lame stream, the

546
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: lame stream, That's what I'm getting at. It becomes a story.

547
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: It becomes this national story. Pro wolf advocacy groups jump

548
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: on it, like, why haven't we've seen that with this?

549
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 1: Can you please clarify what they said. Now that you

550
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: said that, I'll let you do it. Since am it Brody.

551
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: They had agreed, they had agreed in that state many

552
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: decades ago that wolf recovery looked like a hundred and

553
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: fifty wolves. They're now sitting on one thousand, five hundred

554
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: to say that they're still operating on that recovery objective,

555
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: which everybody agreed to. Don't yell at me. I'm not

556
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm not I know, I know. I'm not mad at you.

557
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm mad at Reuters. I'm mad at every click bait

558
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: generating not not you, Spencer, but every every click bait

559
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: generating person on the planet. They're loosening some hunting restrictions.

560
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: They've loosened to hunting restrictions all the way along to

561
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 1: no effect. You Like, It's not like all of a sudden,

562
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: the Idaho is gonna loosen a couple more restrictions and

563
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they're gonna be like bamo at

564
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: recovery objective. You're not gonna do it. I understand that.

565
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: I'm not mad at you, Brodie. I'm just saying, why

566
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: hasn't there been that level of scrutiny put on this situation? Especially?

567
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: I have no I know someone's governor kills the gray

568
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: wolf and holy smokes, Yeah, that is a really good question, man, Um.

569
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: And I will tell you had a problem in the question. Yeah,

570
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: the question itself was flawed. But as Steven is the latest,

571
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: but the root of the question was was was a

572
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: good one? That that question has been bannered about amongst

573
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: myself and many others. And and I don't have a

574
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: great answer, guys, Um. I think in some ways because

575
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 1: of where this this occurred. You know, northeastern North Carolina

576
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: is a very rural area the state of North Carolina. Uh,

577
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 1: the state agency UM was not particularly vested in this

578
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: in this project, there will there were conflicts between the

579
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: agency and the US Fishing Wilife Service. So you basically

580
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: had a small group of people the recovery program that

581
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: we're working in isolation out in in this area. And

582
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: when these issues started popping up and these things started happening,

583
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: instead of going to the top of the mountaintop and saying,

584
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: damn it, people, we've got a problem here and we

585
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: need help, we need you to help us figure out

586
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: a way to stop what's happening to this animal being

587
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 1: there being shot. That didn't happen. And it didn't matter

588
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: if I got up at a conference and and gave

589
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: a talk about what was going on, which I did,

590
00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. Um if people interviewed me or students

591
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: are biologists, it just didn't. It didn't seem to matter.

592
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of traction around it. And a

593
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: lot of us have openly discussed why that, why that was.

594
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: It's a it's a travesty. You know. I wish I

595
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: could be like a traffic cop and direct American sentiment

596
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: two to like proper areas, because we get distracted by things.

597
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: But if we we had this conversation about caribou herds

598
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: in the lower forty eight in our lifetimes in my

599
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: in my young little lifetime here we watched and allowed

600
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: caribou and the lower forty eight to blink out. It

601
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: just gave up. No one ever gave a shit about

602
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: that ever. Ever. Yeah, we're just in Hawaii. There's a

603
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: group of people in Hawaii who made it their mission

604
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: to go around feeding feral house cats at night, and

605
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: they have a legal team. Just just the fact that

606
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: that exists is ridiculous. That coincides with like, oh, we'll

607
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 1: just kiss the red wolf goodbye, kiss the caribou goodbye. Um,

608
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: and then poor our Oh my god, what was your fault?

609
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: I got thick skin. I'm okay, I just I just

610
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: read too many of those headlines. Mike, you're telling you,

611
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,479
Speaker 1: you're telling me that you think the red wolf got

612
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: kind of caught up in the hatred of the coyote

613
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: and whether in the minds of folks they were really

614
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: ever seen as a distinct species or there's some gray

615
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: area around that. Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's something we

616
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: haven't talked about, but it's a it's a very important point.

617
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: Thank you Korean for bringing that up. But there has

618
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: been some taxonomic debate about this. This critter as well.

619
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 1: And and I'm not a tax on must and and

620
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: I kind of look at this from the standpoint and

621
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: I have from the start as long as this canaid

622
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: is recognized as its own species, then I'm going to

623
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: study it. Because at the time I was I was

624
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: really the only p I principal investigator that was studying

625
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 1: red wolves in the wild. And and the graduate student

626
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: that was working for me, Joey hinton Um, was really

627
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: the the forefront of red wolf research. There were there

628
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: were other and I'm not trying to step on other

629
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: anybody's toes, there were other researchers that were doing red

630
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: wolf work, but Joey's dissertation research was really the the

631
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: penultimate work on red wolves. And while all of this

632
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: was going on, there were constant taxonomic debates about well

633
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: is it is the red wolf really a species or

634
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: is it just a hybrid? And yahda, and you know

635
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: taxonomists and offensive taxonomists, but you know, they get paid

636
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: to have these debates, and yeah, and they got hijacked

637
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: by they got hijacked by the geneticist. Man like, they

638
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,919
Speaker 1: got overthrown by the geneticist. Yeah. Yeah, And there there

639
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: was a lot of back and forth. You know, well,

640
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: they're the red wolf is not a wolf, it's a hybrid. Well, no,

641
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: it's it's actually a species and etcetera, etcetera. I mean,

642
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: we're hybrids. We're human, we're human neander tall hybrids. At

643
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: about the you know, it's you'd have thrown out bison recovery.

644
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: They tried to throw out bison recovery on the same grounds.

645
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: There's a little teatsy bit of cattle intro aggression at

646
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: the screw Now when when you say hybrids, Mike, like,

647
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: hybrids of what like a gray wolf and a coyote,

648
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Like they're basically that that they're just a they're hybrid canid,

649
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: that that there was no such thing as a And

650
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: there are are some that argue this there there's never

651
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: been any such thing as a red wolf. That actually

652
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: what's running around there is just a a kind of

653
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: gray wolf slash you know, mutt if you will. And yeah,

654
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: again that argument that mindset has been at play and

655
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: has been out there for for decades. Really what's funny

656
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: about that too, is it that's how species I mean,

657
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: that's species creation. Yeah, you could you could say the

658
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: same thing. By some understandings. You could be like, screw

659
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: muled here, It's just it's a it's a it's a

660
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: white tail blacktail hybrid, yeah or some such you know, yep, yep, yeah,

661
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: And I get this question A lot in in the

662
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: Turkey arena is like, well, hey, doc, this picture is

663
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: this ario or amariums or an Eastern or whatever? And

664
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, um, well looks like an Eastern. But let

665
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 1: me ask you who cares? Who really cares? Well, I

666
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: wanted it from my you know, for my slam, and

667
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm in whatever state. Well are you within the rains

668
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: that's considered that subspecies? Well yeah, then just okay, move on, man.

669
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: I mean you shot a turkey and it was awesome. Um,

670
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: good opportunity to bring up your slam. Steve. Oh yeah,

671
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: I can never remember what slam I have, something like

672
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: the Super Great Slay, the Royal Great Slam. Yeah. So,

673
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: so to Cren's point, yeah, that the taxonomic issues certainly

674
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: didn't help didn't help what went on with this animal

675
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: because there was a narrative around well wait a minute,

676
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: there's some scientists saying this is you know, it's not

677
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: supposed to be a species, really, and that didn't help

678
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: for sure, yeah, okay, can we ask you a turkey question? Absolutely,

679
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: it's not as depressing as the Red Wolf for sure,

680
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: Someday it might be. I don't know. I hope not,

681
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: I really do. Uh. I want to ask you turkey question.

682
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: Then I want you to tell people how to find

683
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: you and everything. But we had a guy right in um,

684
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: he says, in Missouri, and now in Idaho where I live,

685
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: he hears about how a primary turkey predator is crows

686
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 1: and ravens. We're gonna talk and later in this episode,

687
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk a bit about ravens killing some some

688
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: crazy stories about ravens killing stuff, um, and how they'll

689
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: find the nests. They'll see hatchlings poults and kill them.

690
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: They'll find nests and eat the eggs. And you're saying,

691
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: anytime he kicks up this this Hunters saying, anytime he

692
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: kicks up a hen, they'll set to him scrounging around

693
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: on the ground. And this is no easy task, I'll

694
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: point out, but they'll set the looking around on the

695
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: ground him until they find the female's nest. M Then

696
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: they'll camouflage that nest with sticks and leaves. Do her

697
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: the favor of camouflage and her nest with sticks and

698
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: leaves so that nothing eats them while she's gone. And

699
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: he says they'll even be working a time kick up

700
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: a hen, stop working the time in order to locate

701
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: the nest and camouflage it. And he's wondering, Um, if

702
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: anyone else does this, and if you would, as a biologist,

703
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: if you would discourage or encourage this very you know,

704
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: admittedly like very well intentioned conservation move. Yeah, well intentioned. Um,

705
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: don't do it that. That would be my recommendation for

706
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. I understand the notion of

707
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 1: the bird leaves the nest and you feel like it's

708
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 1: your fault. You want to hide those eggs and keep

709
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: these mariting predators from from getting the eggs. I know

710
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One, if you just get the

711
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: hell out of there, she's coming back most likely. Um,

712
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 1: if she's later an incubation, after say the first eight

713
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: ten days, she's almost guaranteed to come back. And she's

714
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: not going to wait that long to do it. It's

715
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: not like she's going to be gone for half the day.

716
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: She's coming back quickly too. If you walk around that

717
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: nest and you're looking searching, you're trampling vegetation, you're leaving

718
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: your scent in the area, and that's something that that

719
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: predators can queue in on um beyond just the sin

720
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: of the hen or or the nest. So I think

721
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: in many cases, particularly with predators that our old factory,

722
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 1: that that smell that us approaching the nest is a

723
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: real problem. And that's one of the reasons that my

724
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: field crews we don't We don't go to the nest

725
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: until it hatches or it fails, even though we know

726
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: exactly where it is. We don't go. We have but

727
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: we don't typically put cameras at nest. We don't do

728
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: any of these things that compromise the situation at the

729
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: nest site because we're concerned with predators queuing in on

730
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: on our activities and are sent more importantly so that

731
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: I would I would not encourage people to do that.

732
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: And if that person contacts me and he's really mad,

733
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: I understand, but that would not be something I would

734
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: encourage people to do. He uh, he's definitely not framing

735
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: it up like, by God, this is the way to

736
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: do it, and I'll do it for the rest of

737
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: my life. Come hell or high. I think he's saying like, hey,

738
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: I've been doing this. Yeah, it's a good idea, not

739
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: not not a great idea. All right, we're gonna move

740
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: on to some other stuff. Uh, Mike, but hit us

741
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: with um, you know, hit us with your how to

742
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: finding stuff. Yeah. So if if you want to see

743
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: not red Wolf stuff, but Turkey stuff, UM, you can

744
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: hit me up on any of my social media accounts

745
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter. It's just at Wild Turkey Doc.

746
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: It's all one word Wild Turkey DC and you'll see

747
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: up post stuff every week about Turkey stuff of some kind, research,

748
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: just general anecdotes, great but great graphics. Yeah. Yeah, I

749
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: tried a lot of stuff, like what animals are doing

750
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: when they're wearing tracking devices and kind of how they

751
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: move on the landscape, where they stay, how they react

752
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: to each other, how they react to hunters. It's fat.

753
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: I've got some I've got some pretty cool ones coming

754
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: up for this summer too. Some stuff some students are

755
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: doing now that that's pretty cool. We were doing some

756
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: drone work which is really cool looking at vegetation and stuff.

757
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: So I've got some pretty sweet things I think people

758
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: will be interested in. So Yeah, you can find me

759
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 1: there on Facebook. You just type in my name and

760
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: if you can get the same information you want to

761
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: get some radio collar action, you need to put a

762
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: collar on me and my son this weekend for the

763
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: last couple of days of Turkey season. Man, you can

764
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: see a hardcore mortality event. I'm jealous. I hung it up.

765
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 1: I hung it up for the year. I've I'm so

766
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: tired and my wife is so mad at me. All right, man,

767
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, man, take care

768
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: of guys. Thanks Mike. Thanks. Uh. You know, we're talking

769
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,720
Speaker 1: about this guy, you know, Ravens killing Turkey nows uh

770
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: Native Alaskan uh wroting about Ravens. He works on the

771
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: remote island outside of Juno. It sounds like he's in

772
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: the mining business. They got a mill shop, they got

773
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: a rock pile. But he said that at their camp

774
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 1: where he works. When I say Native Alaska, I don't

775
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: mean like, like know, when someone says like I'm a

776
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: Native Idahoan, they mean that they were born in Idaho.

777
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: Native Alaskan. Um, you don't say Native American in Alaska.

778
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: They'll say Native Alaskan. Uh says that they had they

779
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,720
Speaker 1: found a fawn with a broken leg at their mining camp,

780
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: stumbling around, and they were able to grab it and

781
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: splint its leg, and it made it back to his mom.

782
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: But um, a small gang of ravens got onto it,

783
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:34,240
Speaker 1: plucked it to death, picked it to death, picking its eyes,

784
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: picking at its snout. Eventually they killed it, got through

785
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 1: its rib cage, and got to its vitals to eat.

786
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: Then around their camp this is where it gets weird.

787
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,959
Speaker 1: It was a group of he says, four to five

788
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: young male ravens around their camp like they He's wondered

789
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,240
Speaker 1: did this group just learned to do this? Because around

790
00:53:56,280 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: their camp they then started laying waste of fawns. They

791
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,479
Speaker 1: watched one they were attacking a fawn and the dope

792
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: kept coming in trying to defend it. And eventually the

793
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: dope got some injuries on her ears, injuries on her eyes,

794
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: gave up. They killed that. The best they can tell,

795
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: they killed six to ten fawns around him, he said something,

796
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: they just left, like they once they figured out how

797
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: to do it, they just left and they got to learn.

798
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: The his co workers, they were worried about what to do,

799
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: and there's a you know, migratory bird act. You know,

800
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: you can't legally kill them. And they were asking him, like,

801
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: as an Alaska Native, maybe he can kill the ravens. Um.

802
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: He explained that the relationship between his people and the

803
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: ravens and their cultural beliefs and um, that was out

804
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: of the question for him. And he's warning, has anybody

805
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: ever heard of this? So we got looking at it

806
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: a little bit. Man, they're in the livestock world. Ah,

807
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: it's a real known thing. There's like manuals. What is

808
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: some of this stuff here? We got manuals about, um,

809
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: the cost to livestock of ravens killing baby lambs. We

810
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: got a picture of someone made a little pile of

811
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: lambs that all look like they have like racket not

812
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 1: even like like like golf ball sized holes bored into

813
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: them all over the place. Is this just a this

814
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: is just a raven thing, not a crow thing? Do

815
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 1: we know crows as well? Crows as well? And so

816
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: Heffelfinger brought this up. He brought up, how there's that

817
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: old saying, you know, like the how the different herds

818
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: and stuff are murder of crows. He doesn't know, but

819
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: he brought up it makes you think about the term

820
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 1: murder of crows when they'll descend on livestock out when

821
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: they'll descend on livestock operations. A livestock manager in Colorado

822
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: was saying they had a very hard winter in two

823
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: thousand eight tons of snow food got real scarce. They

824
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: lost a lot of calves. The two ravens getting them

825
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: around the eyes, the tailhead, which I guess is where

826
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: the tail joins the body. I've never heard of that

827
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: term tailhead, meaty part of the hip. She's talks about

828
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: golf golf balls. Oh, there it is, golf ball size

829
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: holes pecked all the way over down to the bone.

830
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: He said, it's sickening. Yeah, that was a bad winner.

831
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: There's a huge meal to kill that one. There's a

832
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,439
Speaker 1: book the American Crowing the common raven and it gets

833
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 1: into their predatory instincts. And then the Department of agg

834
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: has this paper about ravens and it talks about just

835
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: their insane intelligence and that groups of them will learn

836
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: to do things. Talks about being bad for crop damage,

837
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: but also praying on livestock, newborn livestock, and then complications

838
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: where ravens become a hindrance to endangered threatened in sensitive

839
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:05,439
Speaker 1: speed sees this, uh Department Agriculture report gets into where

840
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: they have impacts on sensitive threatened endangered species. Um we're

841
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: part of, like we're part of recovery plans are impacted

842
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: by them, Desert tortoises, California least terms, snowy plovers, piping plovers, plovers,

843
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: What hell is that word? Plover? Plover, piping plover, the

844
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: old California condor, marbled mr letts, San Clemente loggerhead shrikes,

845
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: greater stage grouse are good friends. Uh goes on and on.

846
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: So that guy is it's interesting that that guy had

847
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: that like occurrence around that camp and it winds up

848
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: being like pretty well corroborated as not not unusual. Yeah,

849
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,439
Speaker 1: not unusual at all. I mean this Department of agg

850
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: paper is fascinating in terms of like what behaviors it seems,

851
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: documents of of ravens and just kind of digging into

852
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: like local town public publications. You'd see that this happens

853
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: so much with livestock. But I wonder if other listeners

854
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: have ever come across you know, like we're looking at

855
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: this photo of of a bunch of young lamb exactly

856
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: as Steve had mentioned, with like golf ball size holes

857
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: like a cookie cutter, you know, part of their abdomen

858
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: in their eyes. And I just wonder if any hunters

859
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: or you know, folks around the outdoors have ever come

860
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: across a fallen or some young deer I got. I

861
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: got a tree surgeon I used to work with when

862
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: I was in the tree bizz. He watched and he

863
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 1: had like a blow by blow account, like I have

864
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: no doubt that this guy watched it happen, not not

865
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: Crols and Ravens. He watched two golden eagles kill a

866
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: prong horn. He said, man, it took They took their

867
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: time with it too, And he said they very much

868
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 1: knew what they were doing. And it wouldn't run. It's

869
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: just going circles and hang out. It's like, how are

870
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: you gonna run? Remembering the fog night, we saw those

871
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: golden eagles dive bomb in that elk and they were

872
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: really harassing it. And there was something about it that

873
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: was acting weird too, like they were like they were

874
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: very intent on it. Dive bomb in its neck, dive

875
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: down its face. The guy that saw him hit the

876
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: kill the pronghorn, he said they'd come down and rake

877
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: it's back. They'd come down, rake it's back and then

878
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: crashing into the ground like they maintained that level of velocity.

879
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: So he goes it actually like kind of like poof

880
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 1: when they hit the dirt. They'd be going so fast

881
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: and just rake their talent and it's aid. Eventually they

882
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: got a big wound on its back and and uh

883
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: got down into the backbone and tendons and stuff, and

884
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: that was it. He said, it was just running circles.

885
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 1: So did it well, you may not know, but did

886
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: it die of exhaustion or blood loss or they just

887
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: wore it down and picked it apart. He said, they

888
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: got a wound on it. I mean grass, I mean,

889
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 1: the stress has to be just such an enormous factor.

890
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: Couldn't run anymore. Uh, we're just out in Hawaii. I

891
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: was gonna talk about this stuff. Remind me of something

892
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: I was gonna mention about the spear. The spear fisher.

893
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: Kimmy Werner was telling me just about predation things and

894
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: she was one time in the water with killer whales

895
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: workers is the PC term for him. Uh, Their feed

896
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: on herring and they're just chasing these big balls and

897
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: harring around underneath her bubbling them, or she didn't. She

898
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,479
Speaker 1: didn't mention that part, but she mentioned this. She sees

899
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: a half of a herring coming up, floating up towards

900
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: the surface, bubbling, and she's like, why hell's it bubbling

901
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: and realized it was like like it's swim bladder had

902
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: just been nicked when it was cut in half, so

903
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: it was like kind of making a bubble line as

904
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: it came up half of you know, a big herring

905
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: is means not as long as your hand, right half

906
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: of a herring. All of a sudden here comes a

907
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: bull killer whale up SIPs that little half harrying down

908
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: and goes back down again, just for a little crumb,

909
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: like the thousands of pounds of that thing. And he's like, oh, miss,

910
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: that one came up and nabbed it. What should be like? Like,

911
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: you know, it'd be like you going out of your

912
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 1: way to go grab a a quarter of a smartie

913
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: wait waiting like the chalkiness like sugar and chalk mixed together.

914
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: How do you feel about neco waifs? Those are? Those

915
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: are heinous? Anyway? A guy wrote in a couple of

916
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: interesting things that we got from other good piece of

917
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: feedback is uh, we're talking about getting accidentally shot. Guy

918
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: was messing around the be begun when he was a kid,

919
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: and he had one of those kinds where you had

920
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: to unscrew the bear old cap to load it. And

921
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,919
Speaker 1: he was unscrewing the barrel cat with his teeth, got

922
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: a baby shot into his tongue and carried the baby

923
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: in his tongue and dental X rays he could keep

924
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: an eye on that little b because dental X rays

925
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: had turned it up there. Another guy wrote in there

926
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,479
Speaker 1: were in Kentucky on a southeast Kentucky on a float trip.

927
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: They get to a gravel bar. This is like the

928
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: list of things that will make a turkey gobble wake

929
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: up in the morning. They got a camp on the beach.

930
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: There's a big cliff cross from camp. He gets up

931
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 1: in the morning, makes some mimosas pops open the prosecco

932
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: and got a shot gobl off prosecco. Bottle man, that's

933
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: good stuff. Uh Northerly that came in is interesting? Me

934
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 1: is I used to fish right when I lived in Seattle.

935
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: I was I was a a major cause of perch

936
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: mortality in Lake Washington. And I don't mind like I

937
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: don't like the spot burned, dude, but it's beyond it.

938
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: Like it's a huge lake. Anywhere you go at the

939
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: edge of a weed bed, which is the entire perimeter

940
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 1: of the lake, go out to eighteen feet of water,

941
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,439
Speaker 1: and as you catch perch, a cyclone of perch comes

942
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: up with the perch. Me and my boy caught seventy

943
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 1: in an hour, like usually like doubles. I mean, you're

944
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: not gonna mess it up. And now that lake was

945
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 1: in the Midwest, old men with lun skiffs would empty

946
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: it out. They would part camper trailers along the banks

947
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: and emptied out, but no one there cares. When I

948
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: was serch scenary, they had health advisories on the perch,

949
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 1: and I'd always be I'd always be having perch fries

950
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: and pete. They're not supposed to those fish. The health

951
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: advisory was pertain to perch over ten inches or some

952
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: such and it was you always supposed to eat certain

953
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: amounts like so many ounces every so many months of

954
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: fit of perch over a certain size. And the health

955
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: advice because they used to have a lot of you know,

956
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: heavy metals, industrial solvents from all the manufacturing in Seattle, Um,

957
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: someone just said, you'll be pleased to know a lot

958
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 1: of those health advisories for Lake Washington have been dropped.

959
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: Now there's only to fish from Lake Washington with the

960
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: health advisory the common carp in the Northern pikemantal. The

961
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: health advisory is everyone should not eat but perch. Karina

962
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 1: is gonna find out. Is this because it's getting cleaner?

963
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: And it is? Right? It is we're like limiting pollution,

964
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: doing clean up measures and then time and flushing and

965
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: rain water, right, all all help dilution is the solution

966
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 1: to pollution? Uh? Is it that? Or is it that

967
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: they realize that you can eat a lot more of

968
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: that nasty ship than you thought you could. Karin's gonna

969
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: find out is the water better or is the monitoring

970
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: or the recommendations different? Right? Um, I need to know.

971
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: But it is good to know because now when I

972
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 1: if I was ever go back there and have a

973
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: giant perch fry, I wouldn't yelled just need I wouldn't

974
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: need to be able to say to people, well you

975
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: see these aren't These are all nine and three quarters

976
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:10,439
Speaker 1: of an inch long, and they don't get they don't

977
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: kill you till they're ten like now, I just be

978
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: able to be like. In fact, no, there is no

979
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: health advisory on yellow perch in Lake Washington. It would

980
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: have made perch fries more fun. That was some good

981
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: fishing there. Missouri had its first black bear season. Someone

982
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: explained this, Yeah, first black bear season and quite some time,

983
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: might be like a hundred years. I don't know when

984
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 1: the last one was. We don't have that in our notes.

985
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,919
Speaker 1: But they were dang mere extra payting, just like next

986
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 1: door over there, and uh, we're not next door. I

987
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: guess Arkansas would be to the south, correct, which is

988
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: next door? Ask lay Oh speaking in Arkansas, guys sent

989
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: in a new one. This is terrible, but we're talking

990
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 1: about Arkansas and dogs. He says. What they call a

991
01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: siphoning hose is Arkansas credit card as for clean too.

992
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 1: Go ahead, I'm sorry. Well anyways, Uh, conservation efforts have

993
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: have brought the bears back in Missouri and now they

994
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: have a estimated eight hundred and they're going to give

995
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: out four hundred black bear permits for for October. Damn. Yeah,

996
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. Nine year over your population growth. They're

997
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: figuring that they're gonna have um in the next ten years,

998
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: they'll double their population. I just saw something from I

999
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: think it was Iowa Fishing Game that said they're expecting

1000
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: bears to become more and more prevalent in Iowa. So

1001
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 1: they're spreading. They're good, They're good, they're good at uh

1002
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: they figured out. Remember we had Carl Malcolm on years

1003
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 1: ago when we talked about the Wisconsin supersow and his

1004
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 1: he was specifically studying black bears on the edges of range.

1005
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:06,919
Speaker 1: So his particular thing was, I mean in different areas,

1006
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: they're moving in different directions, right, but in his area,

1007
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 1: it was bears in Wisconsin moving to the south, and um,

1008
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: what was crazy is the health in fecundity of those

1009
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 1: bears on the edge, bigger, more cubs, batter like they

1010
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: you know, because they're in there moving into new untapped resources. Man,

1011
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: and presuming you're talking about smart bears, because they're coming

1012
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 1: from population. It's not like you're like moving them into

1013
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: a whole new area. It's like he's familiar with the area.

1014
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: He's just pioneering new spots where no other bears are

1015
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: in there messing around. And that super saw remember that

1016
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 1: put off something like four years, four years in a

1017
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: row four cubs or something. It did five, it did

1018
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: five that it got to one hundred pounds, took a

1019
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 1: year off as they do, did five cubs, got them

1020
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 1: all to a hundred pounds. That's when they quit monitoring them.

1021
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: And then when they left her off, she was pregnant

1022
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: with five super sou super sou pretty soon. Man, it's

1023
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 1: gonna be like the bald eagle. You know. When we

1024
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 1: were kids, like anytime someone saw one, if you were

1025
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: traveling somewhere where they lived, you'd be like, oh, we

1026
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: could see a bald eagle. And now people are just like,

1027
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 1: it's scavenging something like that. Franklin thought about him. He

1028
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: thought they were just gross scavengers. Yeah. Where I grew

1029
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: up in northwestern Pennsylvania, there was never bears when I

1030
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 1: was a kid, and they're all over them. They got

1031
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,600
Speaker 1: the biggest damn bears in the country. Well, there was

1032
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: always bears, but not like way up in the northwest

1033
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:48,679
Speaker 1: part of the state along Lake Erie. And now they're

1034
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: like in the city of Erie. Do we know what

1035
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: percentage of bare tags purchased across states are filled? Yeah?

1036
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: That I was when I was surprised to see the

1037
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: four hundred I would like to know as a slow

1038
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: open slow can't open right there? Um, I'd be curious

1039
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: to know if you were allowed, Like I'm I'm assuming

1040
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: you can't bait and you can't run hounds, because if

1041
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,600
Speaker 1: you had a hundred bears and you'd never hunted the

1042
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 1: population and it was gloves off, I'm baiting and hounding,

1043
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: You're gonna kill a lot of bears. I wonder if

1044
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: it's that you can't and they're giving out four hundred

1045
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 1: tags because they think they'll kill a hunter bears because

1046
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: they think the efficacy efficacy even that would be a

1047
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,439
Speaker 1: pretty high. But I mean, if you I'd be curious

1048
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 1: because I was like, man, that's like, I wonder if

1049
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 1: you know I bet Reuter's right now. I was writing

1050
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 1: an article, Um, Missouri to kill half of all bears.

1051
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: This is something we don't cover Taiwan. We need to

1052
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 1: Taiwan death. This is an interesting this. I was shocked

1053
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: to find this out about Taiwan. Taiwan has indigenous groups.

1054
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: So as we'll talk about a little bit later here

1055
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:14,520
Speaker 1: in the US we have our predominant Euro American population

1056
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 1: that displays indigenous peoples, and in Taiwan, the have indigenous

1057
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 1: groups and people are gunning. That's a good pun. People

1058
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: are gunning for their hunting rights. So they've been Taiwan

1059
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 1: has sixteen indigenous groups that hunt two point five percent

1060
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: of the population. Uh. They can only hunt on certain

1061
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 1: days and they have to use homemade rifles. This one like,

1062
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: I don't understand that. Yeah, so traditionally they had use

1063
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: homemade rifles. Homemade rifles are dangerous. So they're like, well,

1064
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 1: you know, we want to keep hunting as our tradition dictates,

1065
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: we would like to do it with safer firearms. But

1066
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: there's a big battle going on. The Wildlife Conservation Act

1067
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 1: is seeking to restrict indigenous hunting rights, saying you can

1068
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: only use homemade guns. And this is interesting. They would

1069
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 1: have to file an application and then report how many

1070
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 1: and what kind of animals they'd hunt. So beforehand you

1071
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: gotta tell what your plans are. Then afterwards you got

1072
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: to issue a report about what you got. This is

1073
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 1: where it gets interesting. In their tradition, hunting animals are

1074
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:34,639
Speaker 1: the blessing of ancestral spirits. You cannot boast or show off.

1075
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 1: These people are probably not on Instagram. Yeah, yeah, they

1076
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: would not like my Instagram page, which I use the

1077
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: boast and show off about stuff I caught. So if

1078
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 1: you boast or show off about your hunting prowess, you're

1079
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: punished by God in their legal system. So they don't

1080
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: want to issue reports tallying up what they got that

1081
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 1: you then sent off in the mail. It looks like

1082
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 1: they're not gonna overturn these new rules because they say

1083
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: that environmental protections are as equally important as indigenous rights.

1084
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 1: This all started with a lengthy legal battle. Guy named

1085
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I don't I don't know how he pronounces

1086
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: the name. Tama Tuloom, Toma Taloom. I don't know Toma Taloom.

1087
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 1: Let's say he's sixty two years old. Back in two thousand,

1088
01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: um he killed a couple protected species were a modified rifle,

1089
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 1: so um, he was trying to feed his mother and

1090
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: she had always been raised on wild game, preferred wild game,

1091
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 1: and he killed a car and protected species got three

1092
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 1: and a half years in the old clink. And that's

1093
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 1: what started this whole brew HAA, I'm rooting for the

1094
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 1: indigenous hunters. It seems unlikely that they're the ones that

1095
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 1: are responsible for That's what it gets into. Yeah, they

1096
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 1: used to have so market hunting. Up until nine, they

1097
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:08,599
Speaker 1: had commercial market hunting. They banned commercial market hunting, and

1098
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the endanger they hunt mount jack deer,

1099
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:14,719
Speaker 1: they hunt monkeys. A lot of that stuff started to recover.

1100
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,519
Speaker 1: And they're saying that subsistence hunting by indigenous peoples is

1101
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:32,120
Speaker 1: not what's driving extinctions. Yeah, m hm hm hm hm bullshits?

1102
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 1: What would I say? Alright, So moving on, but but

1103
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: keeping what. We're gonna move away from our Thai our

1104
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 1: Taiwan desk, but we're gonna stay on and and and

1105
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:58,639
Speaker 1: stay on indigenous culture, indigenous hunting rights. We're gonna talk about.

1106
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk to our next guests here. Also joining remotely,

1107
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: we're still having like residual let me explain this real quick.

1108
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:11,679
Speaker 1: So COVID forced us to do a lot of remote stuff,

1109
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: which I don't really like. But then I started to

1110
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 1: kind of like aspects of it because it allows you.

1111
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 1: We used to I used to have a firm like

1112
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 1: no remote guest rule. But and as much as I'd

1113
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:29,200
Speaker 1: like to have people here, it kind of opened up

1114
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:30,600
Speaker 1: like there's people that we wanted to talk to you

1115
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,800
Speaker 1: that simply couldn't talk to you. Because of issues lining

1116
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:42,440
Speaker 1: up schedules, so um one of the long term pandemic results.

1117
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 1: You know, I keep meeting people who say, like, I,

1118
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: for now, I will always wear a mask on airplanes

1119
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,560
Speaker 1: now that I'm used to it. Well, I don't know

1120
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:53,880
Speaker 1: if we talked about this recently, but I've been talking

1121
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: with quite a few people about a couple of interesting

1122
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: things that we realized that we haven't had a cold

1123
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: or a flu in well over a year. It's come

1124
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 1: through our household, and I've talked to a couple of

1125
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,320
Speaker 1: doctors and they said that you can look at national

1126
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 1: flu numbers and there was no peak last winter. It

1127
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 1: just stayed as flat as a pancake all through the winter.

1128
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: And you're like, there's two thoughts. One it's like, oh, great,

1129
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 1: we should just all wear masks all the time and

1130
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna get sick, and you know, great, But at

1131
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 1: the same time, we do need to get sick to

1132
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 1: build immunities and stuff. So yeah, there's there's that, And

1133
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:32,880
Speaker 1: there's also like if someone said to me, you can

1134
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: kind of go where you want to go and do

1135
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 1: what you want to do, but you might get a

1136
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 1: cold now and then, or you can hide in your

1137
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: house with a mask on and never get a cold.

1138
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 1: I'd probably be like, yeah, I'll take the cold definitely.

1139
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 1: UM be the way like some people I know, like

1140
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: very reasonable rational people are like, now that I'm used

1141
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: to it, I always fly with the freaking mask because

1142
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 1: every time I go somewhere in the winter, I get sick.

1143
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: Another long term COVID impact will be that we will

1144
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:00,640
Speaker 1: always allow to limit a degree from moote people to

1145
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:03,240
Speaker 1: come in and tell us about stuff. It's a long

1146
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 1: term like COVID impact. So today telling us about some stuff, Jacob,

1147
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:10,600
Speaker 1: I know, he just told me how to say it.

1148
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 1: Jacob Brusard. Jacob Brusard, that's right, okay. Uh comes from

1149
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 1: his family. It's from the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians,

1150
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 1: and he's a law student Arizona State University UM doing

1151
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 1: his law degree along with a certificate in Federal Indian

1152
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: Law and a concerned and passionate hunter. Jacob, Jacob, I

1153
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: know I filled it in, but go ahead and hit

1154
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:40,559
Speaker 1: any missing points there, a little bit about where you're

1155
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 1: at in your in your in your in your young career,

1156
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 1: and then we're gonna get into some we're gonna get

1157
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:47,799
Speaker 1: into some definitions and stuff like that that are helpful

1158
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 1: to know. Yeah, I appreciate the introduction, Steve. Well, you know,

1159
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: like you said, I'm in law school now, but prior

1160
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: to coming to law school, I graduated from University of

1161
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:01,919
Speaker 1: Southern California, and and I worked for a year in Washington,

1162
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 1: d C. For the National Congress of American Indians, which

1163
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 1: is the largest most representative Indian advocacy organization on the

1164
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:16,000
Speaker 1: Hill and in the nation. UM. And we did a

1165
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: lot of work advocating for Indian country, addressing issues that

1166
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:23,799
Speaker 1: are pertinent to Indian country, including things like land use, hunting,

1167
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: and fishing rights on tribal lands as well as elsewhere.

1168
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: And I've also done some work in Los Angeles alongside

1169
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: the Human Relations Commission, working on again some issues that

1170
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: are pertinent to Indian country in uh sort of a

1171
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 1: city context, so sort of spanning the board from whether

1172
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:45,639
Speaker 1: it be urban or rural land and everything in between.

1173
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 1: I've been very fortunate to have some experience learning from

1174
01:17:50,240 --> 01:17:53,599
Speaker 1: nationwide leaders both in Indian country and some of our

1175
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:56,680
Speaker 1: elected representatives, and and how we're touching on issues as

1176
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:00,560
Speaker 1: they pertained to Indian country. UH. No top here, I

1177
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 1: have a question for you. Is it equally acceptable, Like

1178
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 1: is it is it synonymous to say Native American or

1179
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 1: to say Indian, Like in your mind, is it it's

1180
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 1: either as cool? Yeah, that's a great question, and you know,

1181
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,600
Speaker 1: it's it's funny because it ties into you know, some

1182
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 1: of the things we'll talk about later. And Um, the

1183
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:28,240
Speaker 1: the issue comes up a lot, right, you know, folks,

1184
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 1: some folks take offense to the term Indian. Some folks

1185
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: are completely fine with it. Uh, I would say, in

1186
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:41,440
Speaker 1: terms of navigating people's impressions around the terms native American

1187
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:44,440
Speaker 1: is the term that I think is most widely accepted

1188
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:50,839
Speaker 1: in referencing individuals. However, Uh, the Constitution of the United

1189
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:53,720
Speaker 1: States and the laws that we have set out as

1190
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:59,639
Speaker 1: it pertains to the Native community references Native Americans as Indians,

1191
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 1: and that the political designation. And so it's actually a

1192
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:08,639
Speaker 1: really fascinating, uh conversation around what is most comfortable for

1193
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: folks from different backgrounds to use in terms of the terminology.

1194
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,920
Speaker 1: But you'll hear me today use the term Indian and

1195
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 1: use the term Indian country. And the reason I use

1196
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:22,519
Speaker 1: those terms is because we have actually codified in law

1197
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 1: those terms referencing tribal nations as Indians and referencing anything

1198
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 1: that pertains to those communities as Indian country. And Indian

1199
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 1: country can mean actual reservation lands, it can mean lands

1200
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 1: that are owned by tribes, or it can mean lands

1201
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 1: that are neither of those things, but there is perhaps

1202
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:44,880
Speaker 1: a tribal community living on those lands. UH. And so

1203
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:47,280
Speaker 1: Indian country is sort of the blanket term we use

1204
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: both in terms of legislating law. The judiciary uses that

1205
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 1: term in writing judicial opinions, and so whenever we're talking

1206
01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: about native communities, those terms come up a lot, and

1207
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 1: I'd say you're completely fine to use the term uh

1208
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:07,160
Speaker 1: Indian country and referencing the land um and in referring

1209
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: to the communities, I think tribal nations or tribal communities

1210
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,320
Speaker 1: is probably the best terminology to be using, just to

1211
01:20:14,400 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 1: help create that designation of exactly who it is we're

1212
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: talking about in the language that our nation's leaders are

1213
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:25,640
Speaker 1: using themselves. Yeah we were. I mentioned this prior, but

1214
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: we were on now Nevak Island in the Baring Sea

1215
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:34,680
Speaker 1: one time, and it's the um, it's the coals. The

1216
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: people on the main land are the Yu. Pick. This

1217
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 1: is this right? The yu pick and then on the

1218
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 1: on on now Nevak they they are Chupic. Yeah, that's right,

1219
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 1: and they would say chupick eskimo. Now I know, like

1220
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:51,120
Speaker 1: in my later life, I'm always corrected from people who say,

1221
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:54,800
Speaker 1: like it's a derogatory term. It's a pejorative. It means

1222
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 1: like eat raw fish. It was given to them, and

1223
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 1: you'll hear people clarify like into it, and you can't

1224
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 1: say that the word eskimo. You shouldn't say the word eskimo.

1225
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 1: And I asked some Chupicks who called themselves chupick eskimo,

1226
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:08,559
Speaker 1: and I said, what what is your preferred term? And

1227
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: he goes, if I'm not an eskimo, I don't know

1228
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: what the hell I am. And was adamant in that

1229
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: case too, that that was like, that's what he preferred

1230
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,160
Speaker 1: to be called. That's what he that's what his people

1231
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 1: were known as. And so I felt to put you

1232
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:25,599
Speaker 1: in this weird situation a little bit where certain people

1233
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 1: in the lower forty eight are reading your use of

1234
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:32,759
Speaker 1: that word in a way that isn't aligned with how

1235
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 1: he traditionally spoke of and viewed himself. And so you

1236
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: kind of either like right, either right by the local

1237
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 1: or you're right by this maybe ill informed idea from

1238
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 1: the outside about what people are supposed to call themselves.

1239
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:50,240
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that happens with

1240
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 1: a lot of folks as they get like, um, we're

1241
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 1: open to complexity in some areas, but people get piste

1242
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:00,599
Speaker 1: when it seems like it's complicated to figure out what

1243
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: names people like, and they're like, to hell with it,

1244
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 1: I'll just say whatever I want because those people can't

1245
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:09,599
Speaker 1: get their stories straight, you know, or some such thing.

1246
01:22:09,680 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 1: And so I found it's a little more effective just

1247
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:13,800
Speaker 1: to kind of like hopefully just be able to ask

1248
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 1: and not be not and not be offensive and not

1249
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,760
Speaker 1: be offensive and asking right right, and ultimately you can't

1250
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 1: go wrong there. You know, if if someone asked me

1251
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:27,280
Speaker 1: for what's, you know, your single piece of advice, I'd say,

1252
01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:29,559
Speaker 1: just ask, because like you said, I mean, there are

1253
01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: I know tribal citizens who refer to themselves exclusively as Indians.

1254
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 1: I know other tribal citis citizens who take offense to

1255
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 1: that and refer to themselves exclusively as Native American. And

1256
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 1: then also, you know, depending on where you are in

1257
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: the world, different tribal communities in different countries might refer

1258
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:51,519
Speaker 1: to themselves as native, as Aboriginal, and you slew of

1259
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:53,479
Speaker 1: other terms, and I think the safest thing you can

1260
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:56,920
Speaker 1: do is ask. But coming from my angle and those

1261
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,719
Speaker 1: of us who work in and around and with the law,

1262
01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:04,760
Speaker 1: we use that term Indian and Indian country. Uh, specifically

1263
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 1: because that's the term used in the law, not necessarily

1264
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 1: because it's the term we prefer. Yeah. Now, our our interests,

1265
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:20,599
Speaker 1: as you know, um around the term sovereign nation will

1266
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: often come around with that. Reservations will often have um

1267
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: their own wildlife management systems, right, so you can go

1268
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 1: down and you know, you go to there's some states

1269
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 1: where it might be illegal to hunt black bears with hounds,

1270
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 1: but then on on a reservation it is legal to

1271
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:44,759
Speaker 1: hunt black bears with hounds. Or they have completely different

1272
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 1: season structures and you have to get a separate license.

1273
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:50,640
Speaker 1: Like there's there's reservations here in Montana. You um, you

1274
01:23:50,640 --> 01:23:54,920
Speaker 1: need to go buy a tribal hunting license. Okay, because

1275
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:58,960
Speaker 1: we'll hear the term like because it's a sovereign nation. Um,

1276
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,240
Speaker 1: you don't need to like don't you can talk you

1277
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 1: don't need to like talk about it through the lens

1278
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: of just wildlife management. But but explain what we mean

1279
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:13,879
Speaker 1: when we say a sovereign nation. Yeah, it's a great question,

1280
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 1: and you know, I think it's a it's a topic

1281
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 1: that not a lot of people really fully understand because

1282
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,320
Speaker 1: it's so complex and in a lot of ways, it's

1283
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:25,759
Speaker 1: almost foreign to us and doesn't come up a lot

1284
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 1: in you know, basic educational courses. As we're coming up.

1285
01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 1: We we learn a lot, I think in elementary school

1286
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:37,360
Speaker 1: and high school about this idea of federalism and what

1287
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 1: that means is this conversation, in this discourse between the

1288
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 1: United States federal government as a whole, and then the

1289
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:49,839
Speaker 1: fifty states and their relationship between them. And states are

1290
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:54,559
Speaker 1: actually their own separate sovereign entity. And that's why when

1291
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:57,559
Speaker 1: you go into a given state, maybe you're traveling and

1292
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:00,120
Speaker 1: you go to Montana, for example, you might not be

1293
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 1: from Montana, but you're still expected to abide by Montana's lass.

1294
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 1: And that's because Montana is their own sovereign entity. And

1295
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:10,040
Speaker 1: tribes are really the same way. And the way that

1296
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:15,320
Speaker 1: comes about is because during the era of colonization, the

1297
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:19,200
Speaker 1: United States often entered into treaties with tribes, and when

1298
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:21,599
Speaker 1: you look at when it is that the United States

1299
01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:24,679
Speaker 1: signs a treaty or enters into a treaty with another nation.

1300
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 1: It's just that they only sign a treaty with another nation.

1301
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: And so in signing a treaty, we recognize a given

1302
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:36,759
Speaker 1: group as a sovereign community. And so if the United

1303
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 1: States wants to enter into a treaty with community that's

1304
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: in South America or that's in Africa, they are inherently

1305
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 1: in doing so, most often recognizing that group, or they

1306
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 1: have already recognized that group as its own sovereign nation.

1307
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 1: And so the treaty concept is really important in Indian

1308
01:25:55,360 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 1: country because it's a constitutionally recognized contract between two sovereign nations.

1309
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:05,640
Speaker 1: And so when we understand that, we see that the

1310
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,679
Speaker 1: United States is actually this really unique land where we're

1311
01:26:09,720 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 1: a body of three sovereigns. We have the United States

1312
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:15,599
Speaker 1: federal government, we have the states, and then we have tribes.

1313
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 1: And these treaties between the United States and tribes are

1314
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:24,120
Speaker 1: all protected underneath the Constitution UH and they exist, as

1315
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 1: the Judiciary has told us, the supreme law of the

1316
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:32,080
Speaker 1: land um. And so it's really critical to tribal communities

1317
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:35,839
Speaker 1: who want to be able to exercise some regulatory authority

1318
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:38,720
Speaker 1: like you're mentioning, being able to control some of the

1319
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 1: wildlife management on their lands, to have these treaties or

1320
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:48,519
Speaker 1: other agreements that established them as federally recognized tribes. So

1321
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:53,960
Speaker 1: this concept of federal recognition is really important because when

1322
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:58,519
Speaker 1: the United States elects to federally recognize a tribe, whether

1323
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,879
Speaker 1: that was done decade ds ago or whether it's done today,

1324
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 1: and it still is happening today, more and more tribes

1325
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:09,720
Speaker 1: are becoming federally recognized. Ah. It sort of entitles the

1326
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:12,680
Speaker 1: tribe to have all of these powers that they have

1327
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: traditionally exercised to control certain elements of the land that

1328
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:21,080
Speaker 1: they occupy, and that is designated for them and held

1329
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:26,000
Speaker 1: in trust for them by the federal government. And there's

1330
01:27:26,040 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 1: a shockingly large number I think for a lot of

1331
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:32,000
Speaker 1: people of these federally recognized tribes, you know, I I know,

1332
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:35,960
Speaker 1: just talking with some colleagues and folks who aren't necessarily

1333
01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:39,280
Speaker 1: thoroughly involved in the conversation around Indian country, and maybe

1334
01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:42,840
Speaker 1: they learned what whatever the public schooling system taught them

1335
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:46,720
Speaker 1: coming up through elementary school and such, and when they

1336
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 1: ask me about you know, is Native American is the

1337
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 1: idea of Indian communities is at all pretty uniform, is

1338
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:56,800
Speaker 1: it homogeneous? And a lot of folks are shocked to

1339
01:27:56,840 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 1: find out just how many tribes there are that are

1340
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:02,639
Speaker 1: distinct sovereign nations. And today in the United States there's

1341
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 1: actually five hundred and seventy three distinct federally recognized tribes.

1342
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:09,360
Speaker 1: If you to put that to me, If you'd put

1343
01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 1: that to me, and one of the options was like,

1344
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:13,639
Speaker 1: way less than a hundred out? Is that way less

1345
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:17,360
Speaker 1: than right? And I think, you know, I would argue

1346
01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 1: that probably the majority of Americans would you know, not

1347
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,920
Speaker 1: a lot of us are growing up near communities that

1348
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:27,880
Speaker 1: have a tribal nation nearby. And even for those that are,

1349
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 1: again there's usually only exposure to a few tribes. And

1350
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:37,120
Speaker 1: it's difficult to conceptualize that. Within the United States, we have,

1351
01:28:37,760 --> 01:28:40,680
Speaker 1: like I said early, we have fifty distinct sovereigns in

1352
01:28:40,720 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: all of the states, and then within that there's five

1353
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:48,920
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy three additional independence sovereign nations um that

1354
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 1: all exist under the purview of the United States federal government. Uh.

1355
01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 1: And these tribes all have their own laws, they can

1356
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,920
Speaker 1: set up their own regulations. They can just ey'd what

1357
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 1: is the process for being deemed a citizen of that

1358
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 1: nation and then what rights you're entitled to as a

1359
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: citizen of that nation. And a lot of people are also,

1360
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,680
Speaker 1: you know, shocked to see the extent of what it

1361
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 1: means to be sovereign. Uh. You know. The fun fact

1362
01:29:17,520 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 1: that kind of share with a lot of people is

1363
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:21,720
Speaker 1: that tribes if they want to, and none to my

1364
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:25,439
Speaker 1: knowledge do, but they could print their own money, they

1365
01:29:25,439 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: could form their own military if they wanted to, and

1366
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 1: they can trade with other nations. And a lot of

1367
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:33,599
Speaker 1: tribes today just as a means of economic development, are

1368
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:38,000
Speaker 1: doing a great deal of uh, contracting and development work

1369
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 1: with other nations besides the United States in terms of

1370
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 1: building up and bolstering their own economies and trading with

1371
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 1: other nations. Uh. And this again is just all a

1372
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 1: very meaningful exercise of what it means to be sovereign,

1373
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:55,240
Speaker 1: even in a way that goes beyond just there borders

1374
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 1: in their land. We are we cover, you know, over

1375
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:03,960
Speaker 1: the years, we cover a fair bit about the whoever

1376
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 1: is running the Department of Interior, because that department oversees

1377
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:14,360
Speaker 1: the vast majority of our public lands. Um, we talked

1378
01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:17,960
Speaker 1: a lot about the you know when when Zinky came

1379
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 1: in with Trump and sort of a lot of uh

1380
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: high expectations around Zinky as an avowed hunter angler, and

1381
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:30,559
Speaker 1: then his tenure there did not go real well. Um.

1382
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 1: His replacement was Bernhardt, who there was a lot of

1383
01:30:34,840 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 1: handwringing early on with Bernhardt because he was coming from

1384
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 1: the extraction industries. But wind up doing you know, there

1385
01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:46,200
Speaker 1: were some areas where we definitely had disagreement, but I

1386
01:30:46,240 --> 01:30:49,439
Speaker 1: want up in my in my view, Um, it was

1387
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:51,400
Speaker 1: a pretty good Secretary Interior and did a lot of

1388
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:54,719
Speaker 1: good work in some important places. Was disappointing other areas,

1389
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 1: but a lot of good stuff. And one the respect

1390
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:02,479
Speaker 1: of the conservation community because he was fourth right. Um,

1391
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:04,600
Speaker 1: if he was gonna go against you on something, he

1392
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 1: would save you a lot of time. I just know

1393
01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 1: from talking. This is like the reputation. If he's gonna

1394
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:10,320
Speaker 1: go against you on something, he'd save you a lot

1395
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 1: of time by saying he's gonna go against him. There's

1396
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:14,880
Speaker 1: nothing that's gonna happen. If there's room to move, he

1397
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:17,080
Speaker 1: tell you there's room to move, let's talk. And so

1398
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:20,080
Speaker 1: he was regarded as like a good person to deal with.

1399
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:24,200
Speaker 1: You might not win everything, but with the conservation community,

1400
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 1: cordial relationship, forthcoming, well informed, UM a respected adversary where

1401
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: it need be. Uh, what's your take on on Biden's

1402
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 1: appointee Deb Halen, who will point out first Native American

1403
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:50,000
Speaker 1: UM to take on Secretary Interior, and so I should

1404
01:31:50,360 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 1: I'd like you to explain kind of like why that

1405
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 1: matters because there's I talked about public lands management, but

1406
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 1: there's a little hell of a lot more that the

1407
01:31:57,360 --> 01:32:03,240
Speaker 1: Secretary of Interior does beyond They have implications for um,

1408
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:08,280
Speaker 1: the fact that Hayland is UM native, right, and uh,

1409
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's a great point that you bring up

1410
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,120
Speaker 1: that just you know, the vast scope of what it

1411
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:17,960
Speaker 1: is the Department of the Interior actually handles, right, And

1412
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:21,719
Speaker 1: so you know, i'd say, looking back at that idea

1413
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 1: we just talked about, which is tribal sovereignty, what sort

1414
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:29,400
Speaker 1: of is the next step? Right? Okay, a tribe today,

1415
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:32,800
Speaker 1: Let's say they get recognized today and they go through

1416
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:35,599
Speaker 1: the process, which is a quite extensive one to receive

1417
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 1: that federal recognition, and now the tribe is in this

1418
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 1: position where they have hopefully some land set aside for them,

1419
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:46,679
Speaker 1: they have their community, maybe it's a community of both

1420
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:50,519
Speaker 1: native and non native individuals, tribal citizens non tribal citizens

1421
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 1: on the same land. And the question comes up, Okay,

1422
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 1: how are they now coordinating with the federal government on

1423
01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:02,040
Speaker 1: any relevant issue that might come up. And the department

1424
01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:06,519
Speaker 1: that is assigned via the Executive Branch to handle that

1425
01:33:06,680 --> 01:33:09,839
Speaker 1: is the Department of the Interior. And under the Department

1426
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 1: of the Interior exists the Bureau of Indian Affairs UH,

1427
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,400
Speaker 1: the Bureau of Indian Education, and several other sub agencies

1428
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:22,799
Speaker 1: that are handling and addressing issues pertinent to Indian country.

1429
01:33:23,360 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 1: And so when deb Holland was selected and appointed as

1430
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:34,240
Speaker 1: UH Secretary of the Interior and subsequently confirmed, it felt like,

1431
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:37,360
Speaker 1: I would say the general consensus in Indian country was

1432
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 1: just this huge success because it means a lot of things.

1433
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:45,720
Speaker 1: First of all, to have representation at one of the

1434
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 1: highest levels of government is just a huge win for

1435
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 1: any community because it uh it does a lot for

1436
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:56,400
Speaker 1: younger generations who are looking up and seeing people that

1437
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:59,880
Speaker 1: are maybe from their community or look like them, understand

1438
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 1: some of the things they've gone through in their life.

1439
01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:05,240
Speaker 1: To see that leadership up there, But beyond that, it

1440
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:08,920
Speaker 1: can be very meaningful to have someone who understands the

1441
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:13,080
Speaker 1: needs of tribal communities having a hand in directing these

1442
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:17,200
Speaker 1: sub agencies like the Bureau of Indian Affairs, in how

1443
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:20,120
Speaker 1: they serve those communities. And so it was a really

1444
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:24,160
Speaker 1: you know, big win. But even beyond just who she

1445
01:34:24,360 --> 01:34:28,040
Speaker 1: is as a native individual, you know, she comes from

1446
01:34:28,080 --> 01:34:31,920
Speaker 1: a military family, she grew up in a public schooling system,

1447
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:35,880
Speaker 1: she's a parent, UM, and she's you know, been known

1448
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:39,400
Speaker 1: to express some of her memories both with her family

1449
01:34:39,400 --> 01:34:41,760
Speaker 1: growing up in her family now spending a lot of

1450
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:45,280
Speaker 1: time on public lands, and her family themselves are and

1451
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:48,280
Speaker 1: she herself are all hunters. And so it's something that

1452
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 1: for me is a native individual but also a concerned

1453
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:54,400
Speaker 1: hunter and angler who wants to see someone who's a

1454
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:58,960
Speaker 1: responsible individual heading the helm of what is the agency

1455
01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:03,559
Speaker 1: responsible for my access to public lands? UM, it's encouraging

1456
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 1: to me to see an individual who has some of

1457
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,559
Speaker 1: those similar passions that I do, uh and you know,

1458
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:14,160
Speaker 1: coming from New Mexico before she became the secretary, just

1459
01:35:14,200 --> 01:35:18,240
Speaker 1: as a congress person having that constituency of hunter and anglers,

1460
01:35:19,040 --> 01:35:21,599
Speaker 1: it confirms for me that something that's on her mind,

1461
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:27,880
Speaker 1: surely is the rights of outdoorsman and all individuals to

1462
01:35:27,920 --> 01:35:31,840
Speaker 1: access their public resource which we all share an ownership of,

1463
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that comes out of

1464
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 1: the haland nomination. And I'm I don't want to say

1465
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:39,320
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of because that makes it seem like a

1466
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:45,640
Speaker 1: negative is um from my perspective, Okay, someone who's benefited

1467
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:49,720
Speaker 1: quite a bit from the public lands policy and availability

1468
01:35:49,720 --> 01:35:52,600
Speaker 1: that that I've enjoyed in my life and my perspective,

1469
01:35:52,640 --> 01:35:59,320
Speaker 1: I had a kind of oh, meaning that um, recognizing

1470
01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:01,880
Speaker 1: that that this could be something great for other people.

1471
01:36:02,080 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 1: But you know, humans are selfish, and right away I'm like, oh,

1472
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:12,560
Speaker 1: is this gonna mean a radical reappraisal of priorities? Okay,

1473
01:36:12,560 --> 01:36:15,800
Speaker 1: Like we've come to We've come to like I've come

1474
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:22,600
Speaker 1: to notice, um where the Secretary of Interior, the actions

1475
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:27,320
Speaker 1: they take that have implications for the areas where I

1476
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:29,160
Speaker 1: go and the and the things I go and do.

1477
01:36:29,439 --> 01:36:31,479
Speaker 1: And I didn't know this till the other day, that

1478
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:34,200
Speaker 1: the that the Secretary of Interior oversees the Bureau of

1479
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:38,400
Speaker 1: Indian Affairs and the Bureau of Indian Education. So whatever

1480
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:41,200
Speaker 1: they're doing, they're like I wasn't paying attention to it.

1481
01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know about it, so I had a narrow

1482
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:47,240
Speaker 1: scope of where they focus their time. When I knew

1483
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 1: that someone's gonna be coming in with perhaps like very

1484
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:52,720
Speaker 1: different priorities, I had oh, and still have a bit

1485
01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:55,559
Speaker 1: of an oh of, um, well, what about the stuff

1486
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:59,160
Speaker 1: that they do that that I think of when I

1487
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 1: think of the job, is that are they going to

1488
01:37:03,439 --> 01:37:07,800
Speaker 1: be paying attention there? You know? Um, So for for

1489
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:09,479
Speaker 1: people that are having that a little bit of like

1490
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:12,240
Speaker 1: the hell's this going to mean? Like what what's your

1491
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, what's your what's your guidance or feedback there? Yeah,

1492
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:21,160
Speaker 1: it's a it's a great question. And I've heard those

1493
01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 1: same concerns, and you know, both from people that are

1494
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:28,480
Speaker 1: tribal citizens and even folks who are non tribal citizens.

1495
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:30,680
Speaker 1: You know, regardless of the walk of life that you

1496
01:37:30,720 --> 01:37:33,240
Speaker 1: find yourself in, you want to make sure that the

1497
01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:37,320
Speaker 1: person who's you know, directing the Department of the Interior,

1498
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:40,680
Speaker 1: who's responsible for so much, is going to be you know,

1499
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 1: catering to your needs, um and and accurately and responsibly

1500
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:50,280
Speaker 1: representing all people of the United States. Uh. That said,

1501
01:37:50,320 --> 01:37:53,120
Speaker 1: I think it's important to note what it is that

1502
01:37:53,320 --> 01:37:56,120
Speaker 1: the Interior as a whole, and specifically the Secretary of

1503
01:37:56,120 --> 01:38:00,280
Speaker 1: the Interior, now de Bolin, can actually do in that role,

1504
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times, you know, depending

1505
01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 1: on what media and individual consumes, you can hear some

1506
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:11,599
Speaker 1: pretty big ideas of they're going to make these tremendous changes,

1507
01:38:12,240 --> 01:38:15,000
Speaker 1: um of just an enormous scale that are going to

1508
01:38:15,080 --> 01:38:17,880
Speaker 1: impact your daily life, and it's gonna happen right now,

1509
01:38:18,120 --> 01:38:20,639
Speaker 1: and you ought to be very concerned about it. And

1510
01:38:21,040 --> 01:38:24,240
Speaker 1: you know, I think we can sort of quiet that

1511
01:38:24,320 --> 01:38:26,840
Speaker 1: alarm a little bit when we actually look into what

1512
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:31,120
Speaker 1: these individuals are entitled to do under the Constitution. And

1513
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 1: so the Secretary of the Interior, you know, you go

1514
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:38,360
Speaker 1: on Department of the Interior's website, you do a little

1515
01:38:38,360 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 1: bit of research, you'll see that their role is described

1516
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:48,000
Speaker 1: as having this administrative responsibility for coordinating federal policy. And

1517
01:38:48,040 --> 01:38:52,479
Speaker 1: what all that means is federal policy gets handed down

1518
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:57,000
Speaker 1: by our lawmakers, in other words, Congress, and then when

1519
01:38:57,000 --> 01:39:00,799
Speaker 1: Congress passes that law, it doesn't just magical you start working.

1520
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:03,280
Speaker 1: You need people who are actually putting it into play.

1521
01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:05,400
Speaker 1: And obviously, you know, we refer to that as the

1522
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:08,639
Speaker 1: executive branch, and the Department of the Interior falls under that.

1523
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 1: That's why the President gets to nominate the Secretary of

1524
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:18,719
Speaker 1: the Interior, and Secretary Holland's role is actually to carry

1525
01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 1: out what Congress's intentions are. Her role does not extend

1526
01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:30,719
Speaker 1: beyond actually putting laws into place. Um, the executive branch

1527
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:33,080
Speaker 1: does not make the law. And I think a lot

1528
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:36,479
Speaker 1: of folks get concerned that the Secretary might make new

1529
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:40,240
Speaker 1: laws or change laws, but legally she has no power

1530
01:39:40,280 --> 01:39:43,719
Speaker 1: to do that. Uh. The Secretary of the Interior's power

1531
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:48,800
Speaker 1: only extends to implementation of laws and guiding regulatory agencies

1532
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 1: in their interpretation of that law. Um. And you know

1533
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,760
Speaker 1: the I sort of use an example sometimes to describe

1534
01:39:55,800 --> 01:40:00,280
Speaker 1: this as this idea of you have a restaurant chain, right,

1535
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:04,280
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe I get hired as the manager

1536
01:40:04,439 --> 01:40:06,840
Speaker 1: of a given restaurant and I decide, I'm going to

1537
01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 1: put in some certain policies at my restaurant to make

1538
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: things a little more efficient, to work better, maybe make

1539
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:15,120
Speaker 1: sure folks get their food faster, can have access to

1540
01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:18,439
Speaker 1: better services, etcetera. But you're damns, you're not going to

1541
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:20,920
Speaker 1: get rid of the golden arches. That's right. You're not

1542
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:24,360
Speaker 1: going to get rid of those Golden arches. You're not

1543
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:26,760
Speaker 1: going to get rid of the Big Mac because no

1544
01:40:26,800 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 1: matter what McDonald's go to, you don't have a choice.

1545
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 1: You can you can own that franchise, you can manage it,

1546
01:40:32,200 --> 01:40:35,639
Speaker 1: but you don't get to make that decision. The people

1547
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:38,519
Speaker 1: at the top who are passing the laws, making the policies,

1548
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:40,640
Speaker 1: they act that decision. You can you know, you have

1549
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:42,320
Speaker 1: a little bit of freedom and how you want to

1550
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,200
Speaker 1: carry it out, and you know for sure it's it's

1551
01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:48,200
Speaker 1: we need to be concerned in active citizens and and

1552
01:40:48,280 --> 01:40:51,320
Speaker 1: keeping an eye on how the Interior is actually carrying

1553
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:55,519
Speaker 1: these laws out. But I think we can all rest

1554
01:40:55,560 --> 01:41:00,320
Speaker 1: assured that there's not going to be sudden significant change

1555
01:41:00,360 --> 01:41:03,760
Speaker 1: to our access to lands or to how individuals can

1556
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:06,320
Speaker 1: use lands, whether lands are going to get taken away

1557
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:09,760
Speaker 1: all that um. When you look to the source of

1558
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 1: power of the Interior, you'll see that they have the

1559
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:16,920
Speaker 1: power to regulate, they have the power to navigate those laws,

1560
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:20,559
Speaker 1: but they're not making any new laws themselves. Hit me

1561
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:23,160
Speaker 1: with your take on Hit me with your take on

1562
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:25,800
Speaker 1: land back. The land back movement now, when I hear

1563
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:29,679
Speaker 1: it like I was view that UM, at any given year,

1564
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:33,840
Speaker 1: I would like to see an increase and the number

1565
01:41:33,880 --> 01:41:39,719
Speaker 1: of acres open to the American public. So an increase

1566
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:41,719
Speaker 1: in in particularly through a lens of hunting and fishing,

1567
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 1: like an increase in areas where we can go to

1568
01:41:45,360 --> 01:41:47,680
Speaker 1: hunting fish. But I'll have you know, not needing to

1569
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:51,720
Speaker 1: pay trespass fees, leases, whatever, but just increase. I hear

1570
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:54,680
Speaker 1: land back, and I'm like, that must mean a decrease

1571
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:59,000
Speaker 1: UM And like every like I said earlier, I laid

1572
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:03,960
Speaker 1: my biases out there, right, Yeah, I have the human

1573
01:42:04,000 --> 01:42:09,640
Speaker 1: tendency to view things through what it might mean for me. UM.

1574
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:12,040
Speaker 1: So I'm like, you know, a little leary about land back,

1575
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 1: this idea that we would take presumably it's taking like

1576
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:18,960
Speaker 1: public lands, because you're not gonna we're not gonna give

1577
01:42:19,040 --> 01:42:23,360
Speaker 1: Manhattan back to you know, the tribes. Like I could

1578
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:25,320
Speaker 1: see an argument for that, but I have a feeling

1579
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 1: we're not talking about that. We're probably talking about federal lands, um.

1580
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:34,719
Speaker 1: And that's where it's not coming from. It's not coming

1581
01:42:34,760 --> 01:42:37,080
Speaker 1: from urban areas. It's not coming from suburban areas, will

1582
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 1: be coming from open federal lands. Or maybe I'm way

1583
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:43,000
Speaker 1: off I don't know. Hit me with your you can

1584
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:44,800
Speaker 1: tell me I'm right and I should be scared like

1585
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 1: that one. We're still friends to be very very afraid. Yeah,

1586
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:53,840
Speaker 1: hit me with hit me with what if we're presumably

1587
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 1: if we're gonna hear more, if people are gonna hear

1588
01:42:55,479 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 1: more about this, what are they gonna be hearing more about?

1589
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:01,400
Speaker 1: You know, and you can you can you can buyas

1590
01:43:01,479 --> 01:43:04,800
Speaker 1: it as much there as little as you'd like. Sure, Well,

1591
01:43:04,840 --> 01:43:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, I would say, just to answer that question,

1592
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:09,160
Speaker 1: what folks are gonna hear? I you know, I'm gonna

1593
01:43:09,160 --> 01:43:11,640
Speaker 1: have to be candid and say folks are especially as

1594
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:14,240
Speaker 1: this movement continues to gain traction, folks are going to

1595
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:17,439
Speaker 1: hear all manner of things. And that's going to come

1596
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:20,120
Speaker 1: from you know, folks who are talking about this movement,

1597
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:23,840
Speaker 1: writing about it, um all have their own perspectives that

1598
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 1: they're bringing to the table. And again I would just

1599
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:33,479
Speaker 1: caution that little bit of h hesitancy from just believing

1600
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:35,360
Speaker 1: what you hear right away, because there are going to

1601
01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:39,120
Speaker 1: be folks who are talking about what they want to happen. Um,

1602
01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:42,920
Speaker 1: it might leave out the realities of what actually can happen.

1603
01:43:43,320 --> 01:43:45,240
Speaker 1: So just kind of like what we're talking about with

1604
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:49,720
Speaker 1: what the Interior can do, as you might imagine, uh,

1605
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:53,439
Speaker 1: it would it would likely be a severe overreach of

1606
01:43:53,720 --> 01:43:57,720
Speaker 1: the Department of the Interior's power to unilaterally decide that

1607
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 1: we're going to take a huge swath of maybe let's say,

1608
01:44:01,120 --> 01:44:05,360
Speaker 1: National park land and just redesignated as tribal land and

1609
01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:07,200
Speaker 1: give it away to a tribe. Well, I have no

1610
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:12,920
Speaker 1: problem with that. Yeah, they do parts zero gripes for me.

1611
01:44:14,640 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 1: I actually support it, And so you know, I think

1612
01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 1: oftentimes what I like to say is, you know, let's

1613
01:44:23,479 --> 01:44:26,559
Speaker 1: talk about what the land back movement is not, and

1614
01:44:26,680 --> 01:44:30,679
Speaker 1: what it is not is just the federal government coming

1615
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:34,000
Speaker 1: in taking a look at a big swath land and saying,

1616
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 1: you know what, let's go ahead and give this away.

1617
01:44:36,520 --> 01:44:40,000
Speaker 1: I'm feeling charitable today. Let's go ahead and find a

1618
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:42,760
Speaker 1: given tribe who maybe had rights to this land at

1619
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:46,880
Speaker 1: one point and just give it away. Um, what it

1620
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 1: is requires a little bit of a look back in history.

1621
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:55,240
Speaker 1: And I was telling you earlier about how tribes received

1622
01:44:55,280 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 1: federal recognition and how tribes signed treaties. Well, oftentimes the

1623
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:04,120
Speaker 1: reason for these treaties was that during the colonial era

1624
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:09,120
Speaker 1: and during Western expansion, the United States came upon a

1625
01:45:09,200 --> 01:45:13,720
Speaker 1: tribe that was occupying lands that they had historically occupied

1626
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:17,040
Speaker 1: for generations, and the United States government may be said,

1627
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:21,839
Speaker 1: we really need this land because our people are spreading

1628
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,240
Speaker 1: further and further west, and there's a lot of conflict,

1629
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 1: and we got to find a way to peaceably settle

1630
01:45:26,479 --> 01:45:30,040
Speaker 1: this conflict. And so what the government would do is

1631
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 1: sit down at a table with tribes and sign a treaty.

1632
01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:38,320
Speaker 1: And generally what would happen is that the tribes would

1633
01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 1: agree to cede that land to the federal government in

1634
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:45,760
Speaker 1: exchange for another piece of land somewhere else. And that's

1635
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:49,040
Speaker 1: where we get this idea of reservations. The federal government said,

1636
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:51,000
Speaker 1: if you give us this land you have, now, we're

1637
01:45:51,040 --> 01:45:54,519
Speaker 1: going to reserve for you a piece of land in

1638
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:57,760
Speaker 1: perpetuity that will be yours and yours alone, and you

1639
01:45:57,800 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 1: get to control the sovereign nations. Now, obviously, there were

1640
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:06,040
Speaker 1: a lot of times that those treaty agreements and people

1641
01:46:06,120 --> 01:46:09,439
Speaker 1: sitting at those table uh tables weren't having the same

1642
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:13,200
Speaker 1: understanding of the treaty terms, and oftentimes tribes were taken

1643
01:46:13,240 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 1: advantage of um. But the treaties nonetheless, we're signed. A

1644
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:21,799
Speaker 1: lot of tribes were given these reservations, and now today

1645
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 1: we see some tribes that are occupying those reservations ever since.

1646
01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:29,080
Speaker 1: But on occasion there were times where the federal government

1647
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 1: subsequently came and said, look, we know we promised you

1648
01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:35,479
Speaker 1: this reservation, but actually we're going to need that land back,

1649
01:46:36,360 --> 01:46:40,479
Speaker 1: and the federal government then through Congress would pass a

1650
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:43,799
Speaker 1: law that would disestablish the reservation and take it away,

1651
01:46:44,120 --> 01:46:49,479
Speaker 1: breaking those treaty promises, and that has now subsequently led

1652
01:46:49,520 --> 01:46:52,800
Speaker 1: to this land back movement. Um. And I would just say,

1653
01:46:52,840 --> 01:46:56,560
Speaker 1: you know, this is sort of a very simplistic explanation.

1654
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:00,160
Speaker 1: It's certainly more complex. But there are tribes today and

1655
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:03,240
Speaker 1: people today who believe that when this land was set

1656
01:47:03,280 --> 01:47:07,800
Speaker 1: aside and promised in perpetuity and then subsequently taken away,

1657
01:47:07,840 --> 01:47:10,280
Speaker 1: that those tribes should have a right to come to

1658
01:47:10,320 --> 01:47:14,200
Speaker 1: the federal government and ask to have that land back. Um.

1659
01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:18,639
Speaker 1: And so again, it doesn't mean just giving land away

1660
01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:21,639
Speaker 1: for no reason. The people who are actually who are

1661
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 1: actually on the ground floor of this land back movement

1662
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:27,000
Speaker 1: or folks who are saying, you promised us this land

1663
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:29,640
Speaker 1: and you gave it to us. Uh. And then you

1664
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 1: took it away, or maybe you promised it and never

1665
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:33,760
Speaker 1: gave it to us at all. And so now we're

1666
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:36,880
Speaker 1: just asking the federal government to do no more than

1667
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:41,200
Speaker 1: just fulfill the promises they made in these treaties, which again,

1668
01:47:41,240 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, are considered by the United States

1669
01:47:43,960 --> 01:47:46,680
Speaker 1: is the supreme law of the land. And so in

1670
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:51,599
Speaker 1: that way, and it just makes sense for some people,

1671
01:47:52,240 --> 01:47:56,480
Speaker 1: and it has proven to be a very divisive, uh subject.

1672
01:47:57,120 --> 01:47:59,479
Speaker 1: And I think you know, in my opinion, what the

1673
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:03,920
Speaker 1: land back movement can mean in a productive way is

1674
01:48:03,960 --> 01:48:09,680
Speaker 1: having tribes who are responsibly handling their lands going to

1675
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 1: the federal government showing the treaty agreements and saying we

1676
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:16,000
Speaker 1: want to exercise control over this land once again in

1677
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:22,479
Speaker 1: a regulatory fashion, to carry through on what was promised

1678
01:48:22,479 --> 01:48:25,479
Speaker 1: to us. But it doesn't mean even if that tribe

1679
01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:29,280
Speaker 1: gets that land back, that suddenly it's gone forever. Um.

1680
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:31,240
Speaker 1: You may have seen driving along the road. I know

1681
01:48:31,280 --> 01:48:32,760
Speaker 1: you travel a lot and you hunt a lot. You're

1682
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 1: talking about up in Alaska, You've been on different tribal lands. Um.

1683
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:39,560
Speaker 1: You know, if if you're driving from California to Arizona,

1684
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:42,760
Speaker 1: coming out to Phoenix, where I am. Now you'll see

1685
01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:46,160
Speaker 1: a sign on on the ten that says now entering

1686
01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:50,840
Speaker 1: the Colorado River Indian Tribes Reservation, and you're just driving

1687
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:53,120
Speaker 1: through it. And I promise you, when you're driving through

1688
01:48:53,160 --> 01:48:54,640
Speaker 1: that land, you're not going to see a bunch of

1689
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 1: walls put up. And oftentimes I think folks who have

1690
01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:02,720
Speaker 1: been on tribal lands, uh, they probably haven't seen a

1691
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:06,679
Speaker 1: huge wall surrounding the borders of the reservation. And that's

1692
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:10,320
Speaker 1: because most tribes, just like states, allow people to freely

1693
01:49:10,360 --> 01:49:13,840
Speaker 1: come on and off. And even if land goes back

1694
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:17,439
Speaker 1: to a tribe, that land is held in trust for

1695
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 1: the tribe by the federal government, and now the tribe

1696
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:26,080
Speaker 1: has rights to actually carry out and meaningfully apply their

1697
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:30,160
Speaker 1: own regulatory regime for things like wildlife management, for things

1698
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:32,760
Speaker 1: like hunting and fishing. It's no different than if you

1699
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:36,240
Speaker 1: drove to another state to do some hunting and angling.

1700
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:39,400
Speaker 1: You're just now doing it on a tribe on tribes land.

1701
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:42,160
Speaker 1: Maybe it means going to a different website to get

1702
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:46,120
Speaker 1: your permit um, but ultimately I think there's a lot

1703
01:49:46,160 --> 01:49:49,200
Speaker 1: of concern that this means you're going to lose access forever.

1704
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:52,320
Speaker 1: And I'd say my response to that would be a

1705
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:57,040
Speaker 1: this isn't a quick process. It's no unilateral decision where

1706
01:49:57,080 --> 01:49:58,760
Speaker 1: someone can come in and take the land away. It

1707
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:02,439
Speaker 1: would be a long and meaning conversation. And two, should

1708
01:50:02,439 --> 01:50:05,479
Speaker 1: that land be transferred to the tribe, chances are you

1709
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:08,800
Speaker 1: will still have a meaningful way to access that land

1710
01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:12,600
Speaker 1: and still engage in recreation on it, just under the

1711
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 1: regulation of the tribe as opposed to the state. Can

1712
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:18,960
Speaker 1: you hit real quick on um and we just take

1713
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:21,160
Speaker 1: the lower forty eight on us because it gets infinitely

1714
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:26,320
Speaker 1: complicated UM in Canada, gets infinitely complicated in Alaska. But

1715
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:31,960
Speaker 1: extra privileges that tribal hunters get what you seem to

1716
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:35,040
Speaker 1: hear a lot about Yeah, UM, And I noticed in

1717
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:41,000
Speaker 1: in when when you and Karan were talking earlier, UM,

1718
01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:45,519
Speaker 1: you had a number that tribal hunters UH. Of the

1719
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:48,240
Speaker 1: total take of deer and elk, tribal hunters account for

1720
01:50:48,240 --> 01:50:52,120
Speaker 1: two percent. I was giving Karin a great example of

1721
01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:55,760
Speaker 1: sort of the how a tribe and a state can

1722
01:50:55,800 --> 01:50:57,880
Speaker 1: work together, and a great example of that is the

1723
01:50:57,880 --> 01:51:02,799
Speaker 1: state of Washington. And UM. Oftentimes you get this notion

1724
01:51:03,000 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 1: that tribal members have all these extra privileges and because

1725
01:51:07,200 --> 01:51:13,120
Speaker 1: of those extra privileges, they're significantly harming the wildlife or

1726
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:17,000
Speaker 1: the wildlife take overall in that given area. And in

1727
01:51:17,040 --> 01:51:19,559
Speaker 1: the state of Washington, where you have a very high

1728
01:51:20,040 --> 01:51:24,000
Speaker 1: number of tribes for the size of the state itself

1729
01:51:24,040 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 1: and a large number of tribal citizens who are going hunting,

1730
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:31,000
Speaker 1: they're actually only taking, as you mentioned, two per cent

1731
01:51:31,560 --> 01:51:36,479
Speaker 1: of the harvestable deer and elk. Um. I believe the

1732
01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:40,360
Speaker 1: Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife release some statistics and

1733
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:46,679
Speaker 1: in they said that non Indian hunters took approximately thousand deer,

1734
01:51:47,600 --> 01:51:52,559
Speaker 1: whereas treaty tribal hunters harvested about four And in that

1735
01:51:52,680 --> 01:51:55,800
Speaker 1: same period, non Indian hunters took about seven thousand, two

1736
01:51:55,880 --> 01:51:59,719
Speaker 1: hundred elk and treaty tribal hunters harvested about three hundred

1737
01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:04,280
Speaker 1: and five. And Washington, again is a state where you're

1738
01:52:04,320 --> 01:52:08,519
Speaker 1: hearing a lot of that uh that jargon around they

1739
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:11,400
Speaker 1: get these extra rights maybe they have, you know, can

1740
01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:13,800
Speaker 1: access lands I can't access, they're going to wipe out

1741
01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:16,120
Speaker 1: the population. But when you look at the numbers, it

1742
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:20,080
Speaker 1: just isn't the case. Um. And in fact, the state

1743
01:52:20,080 --> 01:52:22,240
Speaker 1: of Washington has said that most of the elk herds

1744
01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:26,759
Speaker 1: there are a very healthy and be the biggest threat

1745
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:29,120
Speaker 1: to the health of those elk herds is the loss

1746
01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:33,360
Speaker 1: of habitat in the state UM and when we look

1747
01:52:33,360 --> 01:52:36,559
Speaker 1: at where that occurs, it's occurring not on tribal lands

1748
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 1: but on state lands and is is oftentimes a product

1749
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:44,360
Speaker 1: of UH state development and infrastructure on you know, traditional

1750
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:48,200
Speaker 1: habitat of those animals and of those herds UH and

1751
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:51,440
Speaker 1: the tribes themselves are often the ones who are advocating

1752
01:52:51,479 --> 01:52:56,280
Speaker 1: the most heavily for new programs and new infrastructure that

1753
01:52:56,360 --> 01:53:01,240
Speaker 1: actually helps protect these animals. So, you know, we we're

1754
01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:05,200
Speaker 1: talking about these concerns right A lot of non Indian

1755
01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:09,839
Speaker 1: hunters have around extra privileges that may be some tribal

1756
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:14,240
Speaker 1: citizens exercise UH and whether or not they are extra privileges,

1757
01:53:14,360 --> 01:53:17,280
Speaker 1: just this general concern that you know, tribal nations and

1758
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:21,719
Speaker 1: tribal hunters might be harvesting more animals than anyone else

1759
01:53:22,479 --> 01:53:25,559
Speaker 1: um or and we just address that, but there's still

1760
01:53:25,560 --> 01:53:29,080
Speaker 1: that concern of well, what if I want to hunt

1761
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:33,320
Speaker 1: in an area that is run by a tribe and

1762
01:53:33,439 --> 01:53:37,920
Speaker 1: falls under their sovereign jurisdiction and regulatory authority for hunting

1763
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:41,080
Speaker 1: and fishing, and I'm concerned that I'm not going to

1764
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:45,519
Speaker 1: have the means or I'm not going to have the

1765
01:53:45,560 --> 01:53:50,080
Speaker 1: opportunity to do that because I'm not a tribal citizen. Um.

1766
01:53:50,120 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 1: And this comes up a lot in different states that

1767
01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:56,160
Speaker 1: have larger, uh, you know, tribal populations, and being here

1768
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:58,880
Speaker 1: in Arizona, where a third of the land mass is

1769
01:53:58,960 --> 01:54:02,959
Speaker 1: actually saw over in tribal land, it's a huge concern

1770
01:54:03,320 --> 01:54:06,880
Speaker 1: for hunters here. UM. But I can tell you that

1771
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:11,200
Speaker 1: Arizona actually has one of the most fascinating examples of

1772
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:18,120
Speaker 1: tribes doing excellent management of wildlife resources. And here, if

1773
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:20,439
Speaker 1: let's say you want to go on a black bear hunt,

1774
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:23,960
Speaker 1: the state of Arizona, like many states and and it's

1775
01:54:24,000 --> 01:54:28,839
Speaker 1: its own topic in itself, has prohibited hunters from hunting

1776
01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:31,840
Speaker 1: with hounds at certain times of the year. Uh. And

1777
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:36,760
Speaker 1: they've prohibited individuals from hunting bears via baiting at all

1778
01:54:36,840 --> 01:54:40,680
Speaker 1: times of the year. And so you go up to

1779
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:44,680
Speaker 1: perhaps north northern Arizona or central Arizona where there's larger

1780
01:54:44,800 --> 01:54:48,600
Speaker 1: bear populations, and maybe you've been hunting with hounds in

1781
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:51,840
Speaker 1: the spring, for example, every year for decades, and now

1782
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 1: the laws passed and you can't do that. You can

1783
01:54:54,640 --> 01:54:57,760
Speaker 1: only do it in the fall. What some hunters are

1784
01:54:57,760 --> 01:55:01,160
Speaker 1: now realizing is that they can actually go onto tribal lands.

1785
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:04,200
Speaker 1: And a great example of this is the Fort Apache

1786
01:55:04,360 --> 01:55:09,200
Speaker 1: Reservation here in Arizona, where they allow hunting with hounds

1787
01:55:09,360 --> 01:55:12,080
Speaker 1: year round. And just a few weeks ago, I was

1788
01:55:12,120 --> 01:55:14,560
Speaker 1: actually out on a hunt and I was right along

1789
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:17,920
Speaker 1: the border of the Fort Uh Fort Apache Reservation, and

1790
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:19,680
Speaker 1: sure enough, first thing in the morning, I hear some

1791
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:23,320
Speaker 1: hounds going crazy, and I hear him going down from

1792
01:55:23,360 --> 01:55:25,600
Speaker 1: this ravine a couple of miles away, and I look

1793
01:55:25,600 --> 01:55:28,400
Speaker 1: over in that direction. I realized it's on reservation land.

1794
01:55:28,440 --> 01:55:31,080
Speaker 1: And maybe that party that's thinking, hey, that's not very

1795
01:55:31,080 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 1: fairy and I'm gonna call it in. I just realized, oh,

1796
01:55:33,480 --> 01:55:36,280
Speaker 1: that's awesome. You know, a hunter decided that's something he

1797
01:55:36,320 --> 01:55:38,400
Speaker 1: wanted to do, he or she wanted to do, and

1798
01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:41,280
Speaker 1: they got in contact with the tribe, found a tribal guide,

1799
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:44,160
Speaker 1: and they now get to continue in that practice if

1800
01:55:44,200 --> 01:55:47,160
Speaker 1: they're a hound hunter, being able to do that year round.

1801
01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:52,960
Speaker 1: Um specifically because they're utilizing the resource of having a

1802
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:57,200
Speaker 1: tribal hunting regime really next door uh and it's the

1803
01:55:57,240 --> 01:55:59,800
Speaker 1: same thing with baiting. If you want to bait bears, um,

1804
01:55:59,840 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 1: however you may feel about that, you have you're entitled

1805
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:05,520
Speaker 1: to go do that on certain tribal lands here in Arizona. Again,

1806
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:09,800
Speaker 1: the White Mountain Apache Nation will allow you to come

1807
01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:11,920
Speaker 1: onto the land and just like you would if you're

1808
01:56:11,920 --> 01:56:14,800
Speaker 1: an out of state resident, you would come to Arizona

1809
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:17,640
Speaker 1: and buying out of state permit over the counter, you

1810
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:21,560
Speaker 1: just go onto the reservation by your non member permit

1811
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 1: and you can then go and carry on a baiting

1812
01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:29,120
Speaker 1: hunt or a hound hunt. And the same thing applies

1813
01:56:29,160 --> 01:56:32,480
Speaker 1: and tribes throughout the nation. And not only that, but

1814
01:56:32,600 --> 01:56:34,800
Speaker 1: you you know it again brings up that issue of well,

1815
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 1: I the tribe is allowing it, isn't that just killing

1816
01:56:38,480 --> 01:56:41,680
Speaker 1: the numbers of animals for the rest of us? And

1817
01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:43,440
Speaker 1: on this sign I went on. I spoke to a

1818
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:45,280
Speaker 1: game warden who used to be a guide, and he

1819
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 1: actually told me, he said, you know, we call all

1820
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:50,600
Speaker 1: the bears around here res bears because the best ones

1821
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 1: that you know, the top bears that people hunt around here,

1822
01:56:53,880 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 1: we track some of their movements and we see they're

1823
01:56:56,240 --> 01:57:00,440
Speaker 1: coming over from the reservation oftentimes or elk. Same thing.

1824
01:57:01,200 --> 01:57:04,160
Speaker 1: And when you look at top ranked you know, however

1825
01:57:04,160 --> 01:57:07,040
Speaker 1: you may feel about ranking of animals, top ranked hunts,

1826
01:57:07,640 --> 01:57:10,480
Speaker 1: um and animals that are harvested in the US. Every

1827
01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:13,840
Speaker 1: single year, several of the top bears harvested are all

1828
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:18,040
Speaker 1: coming out of the Fort Apache Reservation. UH. And so

1829
01:57:18,320 --> 01:57:21,600
Speaker 1: you're looking at the success rates on the reservation versus

1830
01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:24,480
Speaker 1: off the reservation, and the success rates just continue year

1831
01:57:24,520 --> 01:57:28,200
Speaker 1: after year to be incredibly high. You can do research

1832
01:57:28,240 --> 01:57:33,040
Speaker 1: and find uh statistics on herd health on the reservation

1833
01:57:33,200 --> 01:57:35,480
Speaker 1: and it's some of the best in the nation. And

1834
01:57:35,560 --> 01:57:39,160
Speaker 1: so oftentimes we're seeing now that the tribe's way of

1835
01:57:39,240 --> 01:57:42,800
Speaker 1: managing the land and of managing the wildlife resource is

1836
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:45,560
Speaker 1: often superior to that of the state. And folks who

1837
01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:47,640
Speaker 1: want to do some of the best hunting in the

1838
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:51,280
Speaker 1: country can go to a tribe, purchase a permit just

1839
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:54,520
Speaker 1: like they would anywhere else, grab themselves a guide if

1840
01:57:54,520 --> 01:57:57,040
Speaker 1: that's what they want to do, and have just an

1841
01:57:57,040 --> 01:57:59,480
Speaker 1: incredible hunt and some of at least here some of

1842
01:57:59,520 --> 01:58:04,920
Speaker 1: Arizona most beautiful country. All right, man, uh, this is great.

1843
01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:07,160
Speaker 1: I got like three million questions. They're gonna have to

1844
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:09,440
Speaker 1: have you on more and in and in honestly, some

1845
01:58:09,560 --> 01:58:12,960
Speaker 1: areas where um, some areas where I'd be like, yeah,

1846
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:16,560
Speaker 1: but what about but what about? I got a bunch

1847
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 1: of but what about bum gonna We're gonna let you

1848
01:58:19,560 --> 01:58:23,000
Speaker 1: go for now under the agreement that you're gonna have

1849
01:58:23,080 --> 01:58:27,880
Speaker 1: to come on now and then to um debate with

1850
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:30,280
Speaker 1: us and explain stuff to us, and and and give

1851
01:58:30,320 --> 01:58:32,280
Speaker 1: your take on stuff. But I don't know if you

1852
01:58:32,280 --> 01:58:34,600
Speaker 1: want people to do you want? I mean, if you

1853
01:58:34,640 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 1: if I say to you, like, hey, tell people how

1854
01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:39,000
Speaker 1: to find you, you will get great emails and you'll

1855
01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:42,160
Speaker 1: get emails from some mal assholes. So it's up to you, man.

1856
01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 1: Do you want to tell people how to find you? Absolutely? Yeah,

1857
01:58:46,720 --> 01:58:50,040
Speaker 1: I I believe that. You know. It's up for everyone

1858
01:58:50,080 --> 01:58:52,360
Speaker 1: to decide the extent to which they want to help

1859
01:58:52,520 --> 01:58:55,560
Speaker 1: educate the community. But it's something I'm passionate about. I'm

1860
01:58:55,560 --> 01:58:59,600
Speaker 1: always happy to entertain questions. Um, you can find me

1861
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:01,879
Speaker 1: on social media. I'm happy to give you some contact

1862
01:59:01,880 --> 01:59:04,160
Speaker 1: information to do folks. And I want to remind people

1863
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:08,680
Speaker 1: this is a guy that came on in good faith, uh,

1864
01:59:08,680 --> 01:59:15,160
Speaker 1: in the spirit of of education cooperation to explain some stuff.

1865
01:59:15,720 --> 01:59:17,520
Speaker 1: So as much as you might be sitting there with

1866
01:59:17,520 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 1: your hackles up about everything's gonna be different. We invited him,

1867
01:59:22,880 --> 01:59:24,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he did a great job and he's now

1868
01:59:24,680 --> 01:59:25,960
Speaker 1: going to tell you how to get hold of him.

1869
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:32,520
Speaker 1: But keep in mind it's a conversation. Go ahead. Yeah,

1870
01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:35,720
Speaker 1: so you can look me up on on social media.

1871
01:59:35,880 --> 01:59:40,400
Speaker 1: I'm on most platforms at Jacob Broussard. Um. I'm sure

1872
01:59:40,400 --> 01:59:43,040
Speaker 1: if you're listening to the podcast, you'll probably see my

1873
01:59:43,160 --> 01:59:46,720
Speaker 1: name I imagine in the podcast description. Uh. And if

1874
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,440
Speaker 1: you feel like sending me an email, uh, you go

1875
01:59:49,480 --> 01:59:52,640
Speaker 1: ahead and reach out to me as well. Um, I'm

1876
01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:55,040
Speaker 1: happy to give that over to the Meat Eater team

1877
01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:58,600
Speaker 1: and and if they want to facilitate any contact like that,

1878
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,040
Speaker 1: you can feel free to reach out to me. Yeah,

1879
02:00:01,040 --> 02:00:03,800
Speaker 1: that's a good idea, is um. Uh Corey Colkins who

1880
02:00:04,080 --> 02:00:07,080
Speaker 1: runs our email inbox, he'll he'll get everything where it

1881
02:00:07,080 --> 02:00:10,320
Speaker 1: needs to go. All right, thanks man, This is this

1882
02:00:10,400 --> 02:00:14,360
Speaker 1: is great. Uh. I like it. I learned a lot

1883
02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:17,000
Speaker 1: talking to you. I still got a couple of what

1884
02:00:17,160 --> 02:00:24,120
Speaker 1: about dress any what about anytime? I appreciate you having

1885
02:00:24,120 --> 02:00:26,200
Speaker 1: me on all right, thanks so much, man,