1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And Tracy our prior 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: and beloved guest. Ann Burne has a new book out yep. 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: That book is Baking in the American South, two hundred 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: Recipes and Their Untold Stories. And her last two historical 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: baking books, which were American Cake and American Cookie, were 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: very popular with our listeners, so of course we had 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: to have her back to talk about this book. Ann's 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: knowledge of baking is utterly unreal. She knows the history 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: of what seems like everything that has ever been baked, 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and she's talked to everyone who has ever baked a things. 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: So this conversation is a mix of historical information and 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: some baking tips and if we're being very honest, things 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: that I was just playing curious about. Yeah, so let's 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: jump right in and burn thank you so much for 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: being back on the show. It's great to be here, 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: hauling you are, like, I don't want to talk bad 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: about any of my other guests, but you're my favorite 20 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: guest we have on the show. Oh that is honored. 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: It's true because you're delightful and you talk about delightful food, 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: and you're a really good food educator, which is what 23 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: I really love. Thank you. Your new book, Baking in 24 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: the American South, is a tome. It's big, it's full 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: of information. But what I love is that you open 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: it by telling the story of someone asking you why 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Southern baking is so special when you were doing a 28 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: book event for a previous book you wrote, and it 29 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: stumped you a little bit. Why do you think it's 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: so hard to quantify what's special about Southern baking. 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: Because it's rooted in memory, and I think as a writer, 32 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: I was concerned that, you know, my memories were really 33 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: affecting my judgment there. You know, it's because my mother 34 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: was a fabulous cook and baker. 35 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: So I started thinking, am I wrong? 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: I mean, maybe not everybody comes from that sort of 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: warm and fuzzy background. I mean, maybe the Midwest the 38 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: baking is just as good as it is in the South. 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: And so I got concerned. But the audience at that 40 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: book signing they really backed me up. I mean, hands 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: started going in the air, and it's your mother's recipe, 42 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: it's the land it's the people, it's the food. But 43 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: that was really the beginning of this project, you know, 44 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: and it was a perfect beginning. 45 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the things that I really really have 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: always loved about your writing is you don't shy away 47 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: from any of the difficult or problematic parts of a 48 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: recipe story or a baking tradition story, and you kind 49 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: of bust the myth about the romanticized South and what 50 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: people think it is right out of the gate in 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: the introduction, Will you talk a little bit about that, 52 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: how we have this false memory as a culture about 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: what the South is and was. Yes, we do. 54 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: We think it's all Magnolia's and moonlight or whatever or 55 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: gone with the wind. But the South was largely poor 56 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: and rural and isolated and not very glamorous. And I 57 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: think for that reason, I opened the book with corn bread, 58 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: because it was the bread that fed people. 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: That's the simple answer. There are when you say you 60 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: open the book with corn bread, that's a little bit 61 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: of an understatement because it's like an entire chapter of. 62 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: Does It twenty two to twenty four, I think, exactly 63 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: recipes for corn bread. 64 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating, It is fascinating. Will you talk a 65 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: little bit about when you say it's what fed people, 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: why is it that bedrock? Because space recipe, because. 67 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: Corn grew everywhere in the South, and the you know, 68 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: Southern banking is tied to the land and to the people. 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: It's those two factors. 70 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: And corn bread is the land because corn could grow 71 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: pretty much in every of the fourteen states. People would 72 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: grow it in the back, they could grind it themselves 73 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: or mill it, have it milled locally, and you could 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: make corn gridle kegs corn bread. It filled people up. 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: And I think that that's a large part of Southern 76 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: baking is just getting fed and not being hungry, right, 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 2: And scarcity is another big part of Southern baking. And 78 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: corn kind of you know, made it possible to have 79 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: a meal and that's you know, made with lard smothered 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: with molasses. 81 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: It fed people. 82 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: And so that's that's why to me, corn bread is 83 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: started this book. 84 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: It's also one of those great things that you alluded 85 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: to it by talking about using larder, molasses or whatever. 86 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: It bridges the divide between sweet and savory. It can 87 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: go anywhere it needs. 88 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: To, bridges the divide between sweet and savory, and bridges 89 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: the divide between black and white and rich and poor. 90 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 91 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: I think corn bread is like the connection of all foods. Yeah, 92 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: it brings us together. It doesn't matter who you are, 93 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: where you're from. People love it. 94 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: You also talk a little bit in the book about 95 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: varieties of corn, which informs this whole discussion of corn bread. 96 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: Will you talk a little bit about how all the 97 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: different kinds of corn impact all of these recipes in 98 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: what we know about how to cook with it? Yeah, definitely. 99 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: I mean there were old varieties of corn like bloody butcher, 100 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: which is red and you love that. You'd have to 101 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: love that one, and hickory king which is hard white, 102 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: and pencil cob, which was yellow, and I think it's 103 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: just don't you just love the names of all these 104 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: John Hawk And So I think of that agriculturally, a 105 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: type of corn might have grown in a certain area 106 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 2: of the South, and so that became the corn that 107 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: was ground that was used in the corn bread for 108 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: that region. And I think even today, when I interviewed 109 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: people across the region, I found that there were certain 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: parts of the South that were prone to bake with 111 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 2: yellow cornmeal. West Tennessee, Arkansas, East Texas, whereas there are 112 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: other regions of the South Mississippi, Middle Tennessee, North Carolina 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: that lane to white cornmeal and a lot of it 114 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: had to do with that's what was grown in the area. 115 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another thing that I really I mean, I 116 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: love many things in this book, but you very transparently 117 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: talk about how to measure ingredients and how you measured 118 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: ingredients for these recipes. 119 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: Right. 120 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: I know a lot of us who are not Ann 121 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: Burns will read a recipe and when we read like 122 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: one cup of brown sugar packed, it's like, well, how packed? 123 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: How dunsley do we? And you lay out for all 124 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: of the key ingredients like what those words mean in 125 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: this book. But I also have to marvel a bit 126 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: because you're talking about that and like the precision of baking. 127 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: At the same time, a lot of your book talks 128 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: about how this is a baking tradition from memory alone. 129 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: Lot of people that didn't really measure, measured with their 130 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: heart and eyes. How did that work? Is it alchemy? 131 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: There is alchemy and banking for sure, And I think 132 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: I tried to touch on both of those aspects, Holly, 133 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: because on one hand, we know our grandmothers might not 134 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 2: have measured or they used a teacup to measure flour, 135 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: or did they dig down in the sack and pull 136 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: it up which was just brimming with flour, or did 137 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: they spoon it and level it off. 138 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: You're right, it all depends. 139 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: On the maker, and we don't know what the maker made. 140 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: But we can test the recipes today and make sure 141 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: they work. 142 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: And then when I. 143 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: Give you the recipe, I can give you the option of, 144 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: you know, two cups of flour or two hundred and 145 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: forty grams of flour. Right, And so if you want 146 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: to be really precise, get a digital scale and there 147 00:07:55,680 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: you go, and you can make all the biscuits, cornbread, yeast, rolls, cakes, 148 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: whatever you want in my book with precision. Or if 149 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: you don't want to do that, keep using your cups, right, 150 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: and this is how I measure a cup. 151 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like you have also solved the question 152 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: that many people are always asking, like why were my 153 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: grandmother's biscuits the best biscuits I ever had? It's like, well, 154 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: she had her version of measuring, and nobody else had 155 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: quite the same amount. Everybody probably had slightly different rations, and. 156 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: It mystifies a lot of people because that was that 157 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: scenario was throughout this book, trying to create recipes that 158 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: are out of memory. 159 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is as I said, you're such a good 160 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: food and cooking communicator. And one of the things that 161 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: you talk about early on in the book that I 162 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: was like, how have I never bumped into this before? 163 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: Was the idea of slow ovens and quick ovens and 164 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: how that translates to the ovens we're using today that 165 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: are much more precise. Right, Well, you talk about that 166 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: a little bit. 167 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a like I think it's a table 168 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: in the in the introduction part of the book that 169 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: came from a writer out of Kentucky, and he was 170 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: the one and I credit him. He was the one 171 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: who who shared the understanding your oven And so a 172 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: slow oven in grandmother's recipes is three hundred degrees moderate 173 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: three point fifty quick oven. That's what my grandmother us 174 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: to call it quick or hot oven that's four hundred 175 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 2: and very hot for fifty. But I think if you're 176 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: looking at old recipes, family recipes and you see these terms, 177 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: that's how you know you can set your oven today. 178 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: Because not all ovens had thermostats. Ovens have not always 179 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: been born with thermostats. Thermostats came later. And I think 180 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: another part of it is, you know, obviously there were 181 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 2: wood fired ovens and coal fired ovens and gas ovens 182 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: than electric ovens, and I think that that's why I 183 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: think the wood fired oven could be why the South 184 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: has made such great biscuits because that high heat of 185 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: that oven. Think about that makes that quick rise. It 186 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: creates a lot of steam and a wet dough and 187 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: the biscuits go straight up. And several of the biscuit 188 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 2: recipes in the chapter use like a five hundred degree oven, 189 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: and it's really trying to mimic an old wood fired oven. 190 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: It's really fun. Do you have a favorite biscuit recipe? 191 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 3: Oh? 192 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: Of a lot of them, because I have about twenty 193 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: four of those too. Well, I know you one of 194 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: the things you talk about with some of the people 195 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: who you've interviewed and who shared their recipes, like they 196 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: have myriad different favorite biscuit recipes depending on what it's 197 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: going to be used for with would you talk about 198 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: that a little bit? Definitely? 199 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 2: I think Natalie Duprieve was the one. Yeah, I love Natalie, 200 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: and I asked her that question early. You know, what's 201 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: your favorite biscuit, you know, what's the best way to 202 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: make biscuits? And her reply was, well, it just depends 203 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: on what you're doing with the biscuit. Are you putting 204 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: a slice of pork tenderloin in it? 205 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: You know? Are you putting a piece of fried chicken 206 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: in it? You know? 207 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: Are you just smearing it with honey? And I think 208 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: that's really true, because there can be very crispy, crunchy 209 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: biscuits baked at high heat, and a cat heead biscuit 210 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: is just a big old drop biscuit, you know, and 211 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 2: it got lots of craggly edges. But then you can 212 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: also make cake pan biscuits, like Shirley Corrier's recipe that's 213 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: very wet dough, but they're all squeezed in like a 214 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 2: nine inch cake pan, and so when they bake up together, 215 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: they all smoosh together like they're in an elevator or something, 216 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: and then you pull them apart. And so, you know, 217 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: if you like the soft in the center kind of biscuit, 218 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 2: that's your recipe. If you like something crispy and crnchy 219 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: and tall, you know, go for Scott Peacock's biscuits. Or 220 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 2: the cat head biscuits. So it just really depends on 221 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: what you gravitates, you know. 222 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: The most where it's going. There is another technique you 223 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: talk about in the book that I feel foolish because 224 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever seen it called this 225 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: before or understood what it was, which is the falling 226 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: oven technique. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And I'm like, oh, 227 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: this is genius, but also one So I want you 228 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: to explain what that is for our listeners and also, uh, 229 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: just for my own personal interest. Is that hard to 230 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: regulate given that some ovens will retain heat longer than others? Like, 231 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: is there a trick to learning when you need to 232 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: adjust for your own kitchen? Probably? 233 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: And yet ovens do differ, you know, think about it. 234 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: Some ovens preheat in fifteen minutes, some take ten, some 235 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: take twenty. I had one that at one time that 236 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 2: took twenty five minutes to preheat, and you drove me crazy. 237 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 2: So it's not as scientific as you'd like. But a 238 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 2: falling oven is sort of trying to mimic what we're 239 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: talking about wood fired ovens, trying to mimic that whole idea, 240 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: because if you had a wood fired oven. It started 241 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: out hotter, right, and it would later you know, as 242 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: you were baking something longer, the temperature in the oven 243 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: would reduce, it would get cooler. And that's kind of 244 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: what the falling oven technique is. Maybe to start a 245 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: recipe a cake at a higher heat to promote browning, 246 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 2: or a bread that's very dense, and then bake it 247 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: for thirty minutes at three seventy five four hundred, and 248 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: then you turn it down while you never move it 249 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: out of the oven. You just reduce the oven heat 250 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: to three point fifty and then twenty minutes later you 251 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: reduce it to three hundred, and then twenty minutes later. 252 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 2: And that's that is to set a recipe for bread, cake, whatever, 253 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: and then to be able to cook it to the 254 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: center without it getting too dark and too overcooked on 255 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 2: the outside and not done in the middle. 256 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: That's called the steering a piece of meat, but in baking, yeah, 257 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: it's definitely. 258 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: And then there's the reverse of that, which is the 259 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: cold oven method, which is used for pancakes. You actually 260 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 2: put the pound cake in a not preheated oven and 261 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: then once it's in, you turned it on to three 262 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: point fifty and Essentially that cake is going to start 263 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: baking as the oven heats up, and that's called a 264 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: cold oven technique. 265 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: And then does that keep it more dense as it goes. 266 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: It's not the right exactly it cakes. 267 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: It makes a very compact texture, finely grained, and it 268 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: came out of the nineteen thirties when a lot of 269 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: people were scared of and trying to also be economical 270 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: about baking with gas. 271 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and not using as much. I feel like 272 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: this entire book is a little bit of a love 273 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: letter to the South and Southern baking, because you have 274 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: spoken with it seems like every single person who has 275 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: put edition in an oven, you know, oh, all of 276 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: the people who are kind of famous in Southern baking. 277 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: You seem to know when every single recipe started and when. 278 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: And it feels both very thoughtful and carefully planned out 279 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: and also very joyful. To me, It's a very joyful read. 280 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: And you are a woman of the South. So I 281 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: wonder did you find yourself kind of falling in love 282 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: with Southern baking in a new way? Did it change 283 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: your relationship with all of these recipes, which you were 284 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: probably mostly exposed to before you started the project. 285 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: Yes, it made me absolutely fall in love with the South, 286 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: the entire region, and embrace our differences. I found that 287 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: there was much greater diversity in the baking of the 288 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: South than I ever imagined, and as quirky as something 289 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 2: like a cherry nut pie and a chocolate tomatoes sheep 290 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: cakes or possum pie is from Arkansas. I mean, after 291 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: making these recipes, how can I not love them? 292 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: You know? 293 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: And I am a Tennessee and you know, fifth generation, 294 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: but I fell in love with West Virginia and a 295 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: grandmother Bailey's you know, gingerbread recipe, and I fell in 296 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: love with so much of South Carolina baking that I 297 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: didn't know. I didn't grow up in the low country, right, 298 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: But just their love and how they've incorporated rice and 299 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: so many recipes, and just the hardships I think that 300 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: people went through. If you read about other people's lives 301 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: through these recipes, it does make you so much more 302 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: empathetic to what other people have gone through through time. 303 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is such an intertwining of heart and heart 304 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: throughout the whole thing. It's really beautiful. It's a good 305 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: way to put it. Will you tell us? Kind of 306 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: the short version of I'm glad you mentioned South Carolina, 307 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: the Carolina rice story, and how important that is not 308 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: just to the South but really to the nation in 309 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. 310 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: Well, very much so, I mean South Carolina. It's a 311 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: complicated story because rice production took place in South Carolina 312 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: because the climate, because of soil, and also because of 313 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: the enslaved people who were forced to come here from 314 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: the western coast of Africa, which is called has been 315 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 2: called the rice coast. So they were brought to South 316 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: Carolina in the seventeen hundreds. They had not only a 317 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: knowledge of rice cultivation, and they actually did the physical 318 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: labor of digging canals and excavating, removing tree roots, miles 319 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 2: and miles of work and backbreaking work, but they also 320 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: were subject to malaria and all of the elements in 321 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: that hot and human cuisine. These people also brought a 322 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: knowledge and memories of a rice based cuisine, and so 323 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 2: it only makes sense then that the breads, the croquettes, 324 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 2: the waffles of that area would be based on rice 325 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: that was accessible. That's what they knew. And you see 326 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: other influences in rice, like in New Orleans, the claws 327 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: mot of a Caribbean and African influence into New Orleans cooking, 328 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: and I think it's just it's a very rich part 329 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: of the South. It's a it's a to read about 330 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 2: and to research it. It's a tragic part, you know, 331 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: of our history, but it has been an integral part 332 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: of Southern banking. 333 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is a through line with you know, 334 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: your other books about American cake and American cookies, where 335 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: you're very open about a lot of the things that 336 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: we have adopted and think like these are Americana recipes 337 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: are really ones that came from Africa during the slave trade, 338 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: which is right fascinating to think about, because I think 339 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: most people don't think about them that way unless they're 340 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: really looking for the history. So I'm grateful because it 341 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: makes us kind of reframe what all of that means. Well, 342 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: thank you. 343 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: But at rice and cane both are important ingredients in 344 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: Southern banking, but they're you know, they have their dark history. 345 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. We have also talked a little bit on the 346 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: show before about enrichment programs, but I am ceaselessly fascinated. 347 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: So will you tell us a little bit from you know, 348 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: your expertise, what those what enrichment programs were when it 349 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: came to baking and why they happened. 350 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: And you're talking about the b vitamins and nios and yes, 351 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: I think it's yes. And because we had a corn 352 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: based diet in the South, and corn bread, you know, 353 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 2: corn wasn't we did not provide all of the nutrients 354 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: necessary and did not provide niisin in particular, and so 355 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: there was a lot of malnutrition and pelagra in the South. 356 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: And so it was sadly found most often in very 357 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: poor communities and in in the diets prisons, and yeah 358 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: and so, and have you done shows about this. 359 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's come up. It has never been the 360 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: focal point, but I know we have talked about it 361 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: in you know, sort of the developmental stage and how 362 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: and when it happened. 363 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 2: Right, And I can't remember exactly what year it was 364 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: that these studies took place, but they started to actually 365 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: some scientists started looking into, you know, the diet and 366 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: what was causing you know, these deficiencies. And I don't 367 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: think they pinpointed it until tragically they actually studied the 368 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: prison diets and gave the prisoners and one group, you know, 369 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 2: had had a more balanced diet and the other had 370 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: just the diet based on corn and that's where that's 371 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: where it was found. 372 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: And then the federal government. 373 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: Got involved and in our grains in the US were 374 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: enriched and that was called the enrichment programs. Interestingly, now 375 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: that we've kind of gone swung back to some of 376 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: the old heirloom ground if you think about it, or 377 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: going instead of buying big flour that's been enriched, there 378 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: has been a trend in the last five years or 379 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: less in baking breads with locally grown flour or people 380 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 2: grinding their own wheat, grinding their own corn, and so 381 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: it is going to be unenriched. But I think that 382 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: our diet as a whole today is much more varied 383 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: than it used to be. 384 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have access to anything we could dream of. Vitamins, yes, 385 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: and vitamins. I want to talk more about recipes. This 386 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: one is truly in service to my marriage because it's 387 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: my husband's very favorite thing and I actually had not 388 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: ever looked into it. Will you tell us about where 389 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: key lime pie came from and its origin because its 390 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: origin is actually also a little it's a little gray. 391 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: It's a little gray, yes, And I think on that recipe, well, 392 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: we know key lime pie came from Flora, the Keys, 393 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: that's right, and from the Keys, and I think it 394 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 2: speaks to canned milk more than anything. So I think 395 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 2: you look at you look at the recipe, and that 396 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: kind of is an example of how I went about 397 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: sort of sleuthing and looking for the story behind these recipes, 398 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: is that you look at the recipe and what are 399 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: the key ingredients in that. Well, it's key lime, juice 400 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: and eggs and sweetened condensed milk, and so sweetened condensed 401 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 2: milk was an ingredient of the islands and the coasts 402 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: because you know that if you didn't have access to 403 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 2: fresh milk, you know, you use canned milk. And the 404 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: Keys were cut off from the rest of Florida for 405 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 2: a long time, and it wasn't until railroads came in, 406 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 2: and then with hurricanes coming into the Keys routinely through 407 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: the years, you knowes bridges would get washed out. 408 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: So they still do. They still do. 409 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 2: This is right, Nothing much has changed, But I think 410 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 2: that that was a shelf stable recipe. But it is 411 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 2: that story, the story that's in here and I'm searching for. 412 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: It was the family and it was the man who 413 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: owned all of like the hardware stores, yeah did he 414 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 2: And he cornered the market on all the sweet and 415 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: condensed milk, right, And it was his cook who actually 416 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: and he owned three or four mansions. 417 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: Have you done stories on him? 418 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: No, and think you kind of need to because there's uh, yeah, 419 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: there's I actually tracked down a chef historian in Florida. 420 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: It was David Bailey, I think is his name. And 421 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: then the then there was like an island the Keys, 422 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: longtime resident. This guy was named David Sloan and the 423 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: New York Times interviewed him, that's what it was, and 424 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: he talked about William Bill money Curry. That was the 425 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: name of the guy who made his fortune in stockpiling 426 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 2: sweetened condense milk. But it was his cook who's supposedly 427 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: made the first key LAMPI delicious cook. 428 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: We love it the most. Okay, this is another selfish question, 429 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: a burn. Why did I have to be in my 430 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: fifties before I found out about Cantelope cream pie? Why 431 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: were you holding out on me? Well, Holly, I was 432 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: in my sixties when I found out. I don't you 433 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: ever been so excited to see a recipe of my life? 434 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: And not ever have heard of it before. I felt 435 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: the same way. I felt like it was a Christmas present. Yes, yes, 436 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Yeah, because I love cantalope. Yes, 437 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: I love it too. 438 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: I love the Athena melons right like in July when 439 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 2: they come in season. 440 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: All of it so sweet. And that was one of 441 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: those recipes. 442 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: People asked me too, like how many times do you 443 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 2: test a recipe that goes in the cookbook And I'll say, well, 444 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 2: it depends on the recipe. Well, let me tell you this. 445 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 2: This recipe took about twelve times, but we were I 446 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 2: was insistent because I knew there was something here, right, 447 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: I knew. 448 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: I knew what this pie was going to taste like. 449 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 2: It was going to taste like cantalope, and it was 450 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: going to have this big meringue on it. But it 451 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: was you have to have enough juice that goes into 452 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: the custard that you stir on the top of the 453 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 2: stove for the filling, and so you really need need 454 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 2: to use a really ripe cantalope. And that's the story 455 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 2: behind the spot this pie is it is it talks 456 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 2: to us about railroads and what railroads brought to the South, 457 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: and they brought ingredients because you could be living in nowhere, Alabama, 458 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden you could get access to 459 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: cantalopes that maybe had come in from East Texas and 460 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 2: it was because of the railroads. And then the railroad 461 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: cars would also have access. And some of the trains 462 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: that had the passenger trains that had dining in them, 463 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: these there were cooks on board, and the cooks would 464 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 2: actually use ingredients that they had picked up at the 465 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 2: last stop. And this canalope pie story is one of 466 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: a cook who had a surplus of ripe canalopes and 467 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: there's only so much he could cut up for breakfast 468 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: and needed to use it up. And it was not 469 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: only he felt like he needed to use up and 470 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: he didn't want it to go to waste, but they 471 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 2: are actually his job sort of depended on it, and 472 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: he needed to show his bosses that he had the ability. 473 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: You talk about the ultimate mystery bass right right? Make 474 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: a pie with this? Yeah, whatever we picked up at 475 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: the last one. Yeah, listen, I'll make cantalope things all 476 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: the time. You love it. Cantalope syrup is one of 477 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: my favorite things to me for a cocktail. It's so good. 478 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeuh oh. A collins made with candilope syrup is like 479 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: summer to me. Nice yes, And then your leftover cantilope 480 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: from it is like a compot you can spread on 481 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: whatever toast cantalope everything. My husband is allergic, too bad. 482 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: I will eat all the cantalope. Are there any recipes 483 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: I haven't hit on that you want to talk about 484 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: because you love them so much or think they're especially 485 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: important parts of this story? Wow? 486 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: Well we've talked a bunch of pie. That's so interesting. 487 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: Pie has come up, you know. I do love the 488 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 2: pudding chapter, I think, And someone has said, you know, 489 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: I think this is the first cookbook I pulled out 490 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: and you have an entire chapter dedicated to pudding. And 491 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: I do putting you think is British, you know, and 492 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 2: the whole category of desserts is called pudding, you know, 493 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 2: for the Brits. But I'm talking about the soft and creamy, 494 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 2: comforty set. 495 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: And so that's what I've got. 496 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,719 Speaker 2: So it's a mixture of banana pudding, which is probably 497 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: the South's number one dessert, and bananas. That is also 498 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 2: a railroad recipe. Banana's coming up from Mobile in New 499 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 2: Orleans into the rest of the country. But also rice pudding, 500 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: which is old old that's I've got an old Maryland recipe, 501 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: and that recipe came out of an old cookbook that 502 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: was written after the Civil War, which then informed me 503 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: how a lot of the first cookbooks in the South 504 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: were written as charitable cookbooks and it was written as 505 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 2: relief for and they unknowingly have preserved the recipes of 506 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: the South, the nineteenth century recipes, because they wrote them down. 507 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: And I think we were talking earlier about how not 508 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 2: all cultures, not all the people that came into the 509 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: South wrote down recipes. There are a lot of them. 510 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 2: The English and the Scottish and the Irish, you know, 511 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: they were all talk you know, storytellers. They didn't write 512 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: things down. The German cooks that came into the South 513 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 2: through them in West and down through you know, Kentucky, Tennessee, 514 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: they wrote things down. The Jewish cooks you know that 515 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: came into the South through Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, they 516 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: wrote things down, and they also remembered them, and they 517 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: repeated recipes during the holidays. So I think that those 518 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: early cookbooks helped preserve the recipes and a lot of 519 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: the pudding recipes come out of those early books. 520 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: I love it. You also share a recipe that is 521 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: your mom's recipe. Oh I do well. You talk about 522 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: that a lot. Yeah, we actually I think there's two. 523 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: There's the chest cake and then HER's her banana bread 524 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: as well. 525 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: Banana bread. 526 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, banana bread is because that's our personal favorite. That 527 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: was just how do I get this banana bread recipe 528 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 2: in the book? And it goes into quick bread chapter. 529 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: There you go. 530 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 2: It's a great banana bread recipe. It's real easy to do, 531 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: and it's oil not you know, butter. I think it 532 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: makes a fuller flavored banana bread. And then there's a 533 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: chestcake recipe in the cake chapter, and that's the it's 534 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: like a bar, it's like a blondie, but it's We 535 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: call it chest cake in Middle Tennessee because it has 536 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: the gooey consistency of like a chest pie. 537 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: Gotcha. That one caught my eye because it just looked 538 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: really the photography in this book, thank you, thank you, 539 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: thank you. 540 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 2: Red Allen out of Atlanta, I mean Athens, Georgia was 541 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: a photography. 542 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: It's beautiful. Yeah, she's quite talented. Fact like everything looks 543 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: really buttery and delicious. It was buttery. It's a mouth 544 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: watering set of pictures for sure, thank you. And as 545 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: I said, it's a tone. That's a lot of work. Yeah, 546 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: it's two hundred recipes boring behind the veil. Question about 547 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: that when you're doing photography for one of your books, 548 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: especially in like this, are those situations where you are 549 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: churning out those recipes and dressing them for photography or 550 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: do you have a bunch of helpers? Is it you 551 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: and the photographer? How does that work? Well? 552 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: It was both this time because we had two weeks 553 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: of photoshoots. 554 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: That's not enough. There are a million recipes in here, correct, Yeah, 555 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: that's right. 556 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: And the first week we had a fabulous stylist, Tammy 557 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,239 Speaker 2: Hardiman and hers assistant, Angela Hinkel. They were fantastic. So 558 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: let me tell you. The first week we did every 559 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: complicated recipe in a book because I needed them. We 560 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: did all most of the pause because Angela was just 561 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 2: fluting and crafting the crust and Tammy did all the 562 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: flourishes on top. But I also was in the kitchens 563 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: during custard and making things. The next week they went 564 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: by BA and it was me and so that we. 565 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: Did all the biscuits and the corn bread. 566 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: So I did. It's my hands that are in the 567 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 2: book rolling the biscuit dough. So I think it's a 568 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: little bit of both. We had some mishaps. You're going 569 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: to the oven in the studio, I had a hot 570 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: spoted and on the left hand side, that beautiful pecan 571 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: piw recipes Zephyr Wrights pecan piwer recipe got sort of 572 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 2: torched on the left hand corner. Oh, and it was 573 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: so gorgeous. So you know, what do you do? 574 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: You crop it three quarters and grape a beautiful flower 575 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: over it. Exactly these things anything can be fixed, right, 576 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: and you would never know because the photograph does look 577 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: absolutely gorgeous. Thank you. My last question, I think I've 578 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: asked you this every time we've done one of these, 579 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: and this one is a long haul book. You took 580 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: a long time writing this, and as I said, you 581 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: talked to what appears to be one million people. What 582 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 1: was your biggest surprise along the way, because it is 583 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: such an incredibly rich I. 584 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: Mean, well, I think back to the fact that the 585 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: South is much more diverse, or the food, the baking 586 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 2: from the South, is way more diverse than I ever 587 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: ever imagined. The other takeaway was that I, being a 588 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: native Southerner, have have just warm and fuzzy feelings about 589 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: all of these recipes. Right When I look at a 590 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: meringue pie, I think I'm a mother. When I look 591 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 2: at a pound cake, I think I'm a grandmother. When 592 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 2: I look at at spoon bread, which is like a 593 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: corn souflet, I think of the other grandmother and so. 594 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: But what I learned is that not everybody has those 595 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: same feelings. And that was part of the story that 596 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: I wanted to tell, that much of Southern baking has 597 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 2: been done by people who were not baking out of joy, 598 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 2: and they were baking because they were forced to. Were 599 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 2: baking in in black cooks, who were baking in other 600 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 2: women's kitchen, white women's kitchen, and then they had to 601 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: go home and bake and cook for their own family 602 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 2: and raise their own children. And I always knew these things, 603 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: but I don't think it really hit home for me 604 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: that not everything that I consider joyful and comforting other 605 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: people feel the same way, right, And I honor that. 606 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: I do honor that, But there's got to be recipes 607 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: that they do find joyful. And I found that poundcakes 608 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: to the back black community, especially tea cakes are held 609 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: in very hostained peach cobbler. Yes, so that we're all 610 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: I've learned that, you know, we're all different, we can 611 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: all have you know, memories, we can all collectively come 612 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: together and appreciate a style of baking from a region 613 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 2: that may not be anything like we imagine it is, 614 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: and that we're probably more alike than we are different. 615 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I love it. Thank you for being here 616 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: with me, but also thank you for this book. I 617 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: feel like this is the book I didn't know I 618 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: really really wanted, like it's it's like a Christmas gift 619 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: for it to exist. So for all of my historical bakers, 620 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: there's you need it, just trust I Literally, I'm staring 621 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: at the page for the New Orleans kincake recipeing, going, well, 622 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: I can make that in September. That's not right, you 623 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: can start now for January. Thank you so much, Anne, 624 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: Thank you, Hollyes Oh the best, the best. Thank you 625 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: once more to Anne Burn for her wonderful stories and 626 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: baking advice. The new book once Again is Baking in 627 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: the American South, two hundred recipes and they're untold stories 628 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: and that's available anywhere books are sold. And you can 629 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: also find Anne at annburn dot com that is a 630 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: N N E B y r N and on Instagram 631 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: at Anburn and on Twitter at Anneburn. Sign up for 632 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: her newsletter It's so good. Since we have baking talk, 633 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: I thought it would be fun for listener mail to 634 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: do one from one of our listeners who said it 635 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: was silly, but it was also really quite charming to me. Okay, 636 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: this is from our listener Sarah, and she writes, you say, 637 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: you're not picky about what mail we send you, so 638 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 1: I thought i'd send you this little thing that made 639 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: me smile. I'd ordered from Too Good to Go, an 640 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: app that sells discounted mystery bags from local restaurants of 641 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: food that would otherwise have to be thrown out the 642 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: next day, I paid six ninety nine to see what 643 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: Whole Foods would give me. On a Friday night after 644 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: a long week, it was about a twenty minute drive 645 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: from the train station after work, so I was catching 646 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: up on Wednesday's episode that would have been our episode 647 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: on Carvio Montero, and Sarah continues, When I opened my bag, 648 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: what was the first thing I pulled out. Portuguese rolls, fluffy, 649 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: soft carbs, and a funny coincidence. Now that's a great 650 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: way to start a weekend. In case you're curious, the 651 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: bag also has mini chocolate hazelnut beignets, a large chibbatta loaf, 652 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: and some cherry turnovers. Definitely worth the price of admission. 653 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: I hope you have a great weekend. That is very cool, 654 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: and I like that this is eliminating food waste. Yeah. 655 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: I know some bakeries and restaurants will turn over their 656 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: stuff to shelters, yeah, or food banks. But yeah, some 657 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: municipalities don't let you do that. Sometimes based on ingredients, 658 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: you're not allowed to do that. I think. 659 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a food rescue group here where I 660 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 3: live that does sort of a loop of grocery stores 661 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 3: and restaurants and stuff and picks up a lot of 662 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 3: food that would otherwise be discarded and then takes it 663 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 3: to shelters where they have grab and go meals and 664 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. 665 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, which also harkens back to a previous episode on 666 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: a Gusta Scoffier, because as far as we could tell, 667 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: he was the first chef that actually started tradition. So, Sarah, 668 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing your delicious picture of roles with us. Man. 669 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 1: I love a carb. Yeah they don't almost love me back, 670 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: but I love them. If you would like to write 671 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: to us to share whatever you're eating, or your pets, 672 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: or just things you think about history, you can do 673 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: so at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. You can 674 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: also subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app or 675 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 676 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 677 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,959 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 678 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.