WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 12th, 2025 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.039 This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:17.640 that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:22.560 and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.320 and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Weekdaily 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.520 Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.080 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.400 It was the final Federal Reserve meeting of the year. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.839 As expected, FED officials cut rates by one quarter of 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.240 a point. There third consecutive interest rate reduction, and I 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:50.440 kind of say the U Essential Bank also again saying 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.720 that when it comes to the dual mandate, there are 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.720 risks on both sides, and so it's a challenging environment 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.120 for the Federal Reserve. The Fed also maintained their outlook 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.440 for just one in twenty twenty six. 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.680 This time, there were three descents from both ends of 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.400 the policy spectrum, highlighting divisions among policymakers over weakness in 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.679 the labor market or stubborn inflation. Vetcher Powell also emphasized 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:14.400 the committee as in a wait and see mode. He 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:18.480 noted that for the third FMC meeting in a row quote, 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.120 there is no risk free path forward. We're calling it 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:22.880 also a challenging situation. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.400 Yeah, we got the message. Jay Powell got it loud 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.319 and clear. Hey, let's unpack. So for the latest do 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.399 head over to Bloomberg dot com for the latest on 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.280 what economists are expecting for twenty twenty six when it 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.240 comes to monetary policy. As for this hour, we're going 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.040 to talk about life at the FED after j Powell 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.320 with Steve Moore, he's a former economic and strategic advisor 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.720 to President Trump during both of his administrations. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.880 Plus how cutting rates may affect bank lending today and 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.080 into next year. Also, we talk power with nexst Era 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.000 and they're push to move into data centers and gas. 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:57.720 I love this. This is one of the big stories, 0:01:57.720 --> 0:01:58.960 one of the big stories of the year, one of 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.080 the big stories certainly of this week. All of that 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.200 to come. We begin with this week's FED decision. President 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.760 Trump is expected to announce a new Federal Reserve chair 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.239 early in the new year, although there was some speculation 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.440 it could come in the next couple of weeks. It's 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.600 to say, a moving story, moving target. The next Fed 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.799 chair will take over Jay Powell's term, which ends in 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.000 May of next year. 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.600 So with them mediate thoughts of this week's FED decision 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.520 and on FED leadership come twenty twenty six, We've got 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:27.640 a great roundtable. Steve Moore is with us. He's co 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.640 founder and chair of the nonprofit Unleashed Prosperity. He's a 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.720 former economic and senior policy advisor to Donald Trump in 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.600 twenty sixteen and twenty twenty four, and served as Chief 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.880 Economist and Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Heritage Foundation for 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:40.399 twelve years. 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:40.679 Yeah. 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.600 He's also written a bunch of books, including Trump Andomics 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.560 Inside the America First Planned to Revive Our Economy? Also 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.640 another one, The Trump Economic Miracle, And you might remember 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.840 back in twenty nineteen, President Trump selected Steve Moore for 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.440 the Federal Reserve Board of Governors, which more ultimately withdrew from. 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:58.919 So we have a lot to unpack and talk about. 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:01.920 Steve joins US from Beach, Florida. Great to have him here. 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.200 Also with us is Bloomberg Economics US and Canada economist 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.720 Stewart Paul. He's right here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:10.960 Steve, I want to kick it off with you. Welcome. 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:15.000 Nice to have you here on Bloomberg. Your key takeaways 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:16.640 from FED decision. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.160 Well, it was certainly Wall Street was happy with what happened. 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.720 It was very expected that that Fed did exactly what 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.080 they announced. Trump, of course wants more rate cuts. You know, Look, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.120 inflation has come down, and it's still not where we 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.160 wanted to be. We wanted to be at the two 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.280 percent FED target, and so we're running about two point 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.520 seven two point eight, So there's still work to be 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.119 done to bring inflation down. Of course, if you bring 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.560 inflation down, affordability goes up. But look, this is a 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.440 booming economy right now. It is so hot. Trump is 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.760 right about that, and twenty twenty six is going to 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.680 be a monster year for growth and for incomes and 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:56.720 I believe for equities. 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.080 If you were on the FOMC and a voting member, 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:00.720 how would you have voted? Would you have wanted to 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:01.280 see I. 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:02.640 Would have done exactly what they did. 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.560 You wouldn't have gone fifty basis points like Stephen Myron. 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.560 No, I'm a little bit more of an inflation hawk 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.480 than Steve and Steven. I know Stephen, he's a smart economist. 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.640 I lean towards making sure I think the top priority 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.960 of the FED should be to make sure that we 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.000 bring that inflation rate down to the target level. We're 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.160 not there yet, and you know, look at the as 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.480 a political matter, Trump really needs to continue to bring 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.760 that inflation rate down because people are still angry about prices. 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.840 Mister Moore, is really difficult to square the circle between 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.839 being an inflation hawk and voting for or advocating for 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.600 additional rate cuts. When you see somebody like President Trump 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.520 focusing so much on affordability, but at the same time 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.400 calling for the FED to cut rates even more, how 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.440 do you really square the circle? How would you rationalize 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.520 voting for a cut while also being an inflation hawk. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.440 I believe that Wall Street puts way, way, way too 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:03.080 much influence and interest in FED rate cuts. I mean, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:08.120 nobody the short term interest rate has become almost irrelevant. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.919 So I really don't believe that it's all that important. Frankly, 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.000 whether it was a quarter point or fifty percent, you know, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.680 fifty points or doing nothing, I don't think that it 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.240 makes all that much difference. We should have learned the lesson. 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.520 By the way, look what excuse mean? What we'd all 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.640 like to see is for those mortgage rates to come down, 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.080 in the ten year treasury interest rate to come down. Well, 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.960 the FED doesn't control that. I know that may surprise 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.599 people watching this. The Fed has no impact on the 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.159 ten year treasury or the thirty year mortgage. And we 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.679 know that, by the way, And what happened in twenty 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.479 twenty four when the FED cut the discount rate and 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.640 what happened to the I mean the FED funds rate, 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.640 and what happened to the mortgage rate and the tenure 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:57.479 treasury went up. So I don't overly obsess about Fed 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.440 rate cuts. I think we're in a pretty good look. 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.800 The most important thing is this incredibly healthy economy. We've 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.279 got hundreds of billions of dollars coming into the US 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.120 economy of foreign investment. We've got the highest s and 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.880 P five hundred, the highest Dow, and the highest NASSE 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.920 in the history of the country. People are making huge 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.120 amounts of money, and this is a bet when the 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.839 markets go up, this is a bet that policy will 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.240 be well guided and that American companies are going to 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.320 make money. So I have a hard time really having 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.920 many much problem with the direction that we're going in 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.960 with respect to this economy, and don't forget the starting 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.320 in January, people will start to see the middle income 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.279 people will start to feel the impact of those big, 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.599 beautiful tax cuts that passed in terms of less money 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:52.000 deducted from their paychecks and taxes, and the no tax 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.240 on tips, the no tax on overtime. Those are all 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.400 positive features that will help middle class Americans. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.080 That's a really interesting point that fiscal policy is going 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.760 to be especially accommodative in twenty twenty six. And I 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.120 think that one thing that's interesting is whether we're going 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.440 to see monetary policy that's equally accommodative or even more so, 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.080 And that's going to really depends on who we get 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.160 as theft the next Chairman of the Federal Reserve and 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.640 chairman of the FOMC. What do you make of the 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.240 White House's floating of a trial balloon with Kevin Hassett 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.120 about three weeks ago and then seeming to reconsider You know, 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.000 if there's anybody in the world who recognizes how difficult 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.360 a process it can be to make it through the Senate, 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.920 it's you. And so I'm really interested to hear what 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.600 your thoughts on what your thoughts are about what's going 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.840 on in the White House and on Capitol Hill in 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.240 terms of whipping up the votes to support someone perhaps 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.400 like Hassett or wash. 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.239 I like them both. I mean, I think the two Kevins, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:52.080 I've been saying this for two years now that you know, 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.760 it should be one of those two as the FED chairman. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.600 I also like Larry Kudlow, but I don't think Larry 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.040 probably is in the running things to do it. But 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.120 he'd be an excellent FED share as well. But look, 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:10.880 the two Covens are monetary experts. They're extraordinary economists. I 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.560 really truly. Either one of them I think would be 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.440 fantastic picks. And I think they would also keep their 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.600 eye on the most important thing that the FED needs 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.119 to do, which is defend the dollar. Defend the dollar, 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.000 make sure that it's strong and stable. That's all the 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:25.920 FED needs to do. It doesn't have to worry about jobs, 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:27.720 it doesn't have to worry about climate change or any 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.200 of these other things. The most important thing is to 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.679 keep prices stable and the dollar strong, and I think 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:35.400 both would do that. 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.360 Steve, you have some great insight into President Trump behind 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.160 closed doors. You know he did nominate you for a 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.560 FED governor position. You ultimately backed out of it, But 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.560 I'm just curious what were your conversations with President Trump 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.880 or what insight can you give to our audience, an 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.959 investing audience trying to understand read the tea leaves, because 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.520 we do have a president that most would agree that 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.800 he's transactional, and so I think we're trying to understand 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.880 that in terms of any appointments. Is that seen as 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.319 an expectation that you're going to do the President Trump's 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.600 bidding and listen to him if you are at the 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.440 FED in terms of what needs to be done in 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.319 cutting rates, if that's what he wants. 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.600 Well, look, my opinion is that it is it is 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.200 valuable to have an independent FED, but I also believe 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:27.440 the net the FED needs to be accountable, and in 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:29.959 my opinion, it hasn't been accountable in the last few years. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.680 That's why we got, you know, a nine percent inflation 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.840 under the current Joan Powell and well. 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.880 When you say that that nine percent was the result 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.199 of the pandemic and incredible demand, I mean there were 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.320 some you know, unexpected events. 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:47.800 That's crazcal policy too. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.319 Fiscal policy, there was a lot of money slashing around 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.840 when you can see that that nine percent inflation, any 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:55.719 president or any fed shair would have had to deal 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:55.960 with that. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.400 Well listen. I mean, I do think that Trump made 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.280 a big miss in that he passed a big, massive 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:06.400 spending bill right before he left office. So could you 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.240 make a good point, But it was catastrophic everything that 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.719 happened under COVID. We made the biggest mistake in the 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.160 history of the United States and shutting down our economy, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.959 shutting down our schools, shutting down our hospital It was 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.080 outrageous and I think we've hopefully learned that level lesson 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.160 that will never never do it again. But you are 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.160 quite correct that what caused the inflation, and I hope 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.199 we remember this lesson for many, many decades to come, 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.199 is that when you massively spend four trillion dollars, guess 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.359 what you're going to have inflation. And it didn't stimulate 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:43.880 the economy. It caused huge, huge reductions and real incomes 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.760 for middle class people. It destroyed middle class incomes. They 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.680 lost massive amounts of money because we very stupidly printed 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.200 all this money and spent it, dropped it out of helicopters. 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.040 And that's a policy that's never worked. 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.320 Look, I think I think it's an important you bring 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.440 up a lot of important points about what happened during 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.360 the pandemic and the causes of inflation. But to Carroll's point, 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.120 you know, you do have this direct line to the 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.000 White House and to the President. You advised him back 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.480 in twenty sixteen, you advised him in twenty twenty four. 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.160 How would you characterize relationship with him right now? And 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.559 to what extent are you and how often are you 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.079 speaking to him about economic matters that hit the United States. 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:22.640 What I tell him is that I think the tax 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:27.400 cuts have been enormously beneficial, and it's not a commen 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.800 date of fiscal policy on the tax side. What it is. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:32.760 I mean, like one of the most important things we 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.680 did in the Big Beautiful Bill was we are allowing 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:43.360 businesses to, you know, instantly capitalize their expenditures and write 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.600 them off instantly. And I believe that's one of the 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.640 reasons we're seeing this capital boom in the United States. 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:51.920 I mean, if you look at the last nine months, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.480 capital investment has been really strong as a result of 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.160 this tax cut. So it wasn't really meant to just 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.240 pump money. Economy was meant to incentivize through lower tax rates, 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:08.640 lower lowering the corporate rate, giving expensing, lowering the individual 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.120 income tax rate. Those are pro growth, pro supply side 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.959 policies that actually help bring inflation down. I mean, it's 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.000 very simple. If the economy produces more, prices go down. 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:20.240 Hey, one of the things I do wanted to go 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.240 back to this idea of transactional and again I'm going 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.000 to go back to the insight that you have and 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:29.920 having conversations with President Trump before he, you know, made 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.400 a nomination for you to join the FED and be 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.560 a governor. Because we've heard Jay, the President come out 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.559 and say j. Powell has been very bad for our country. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:39.200 He's terrible. 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.360 He's a terrible FED chair. I'd love for him to 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:44.080 lower interest rate. I call him too late. I'd love 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:44.840 to fire him. 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:47.120 Tell us about. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.720 Would there be pressure by President Trump with who he 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.959 appoints for the next FED share and would there be 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.280 an assumption by the person who takes that position to 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.760 kind of do the President's bidding. Give us some insight 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:01.520 if you could. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.960 Well, I'll put it a little differently. It's a good question. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:06.800 First of all, when I was nominated to be on 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:11.600 the FED. Trump never really, you know, asked me about well, 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.840 would you cut rates or would you raise rates or 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:16.400 so on. He just he had trusted in me as 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.440 an economist that I would get it right, so there 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.319 was no pressure to, you know, sort of do his bidding. 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.400 Now with respect to Kevin Hassett or Kevin worsh which 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:27.880 I think is a good chance it's gonna be one 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.480 of those two. What he is doing is picking someone, 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.520 you say, do his bidding. He's picking someone who agrees 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:39.120 with his overall economic philosophy, and that's exactly what a 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.040 president should do. I don't think that means undue influence 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.079 on the independence of the FED, but I think it's basically, 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:49.079 you know, presidents deserve the monetary policy they want, frankly, 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:54.319 and so you know, I think they will they will 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:59.040 do they agree with Trump on monetary policy, and that's 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:00.520 one of the reasons one of the two of them 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.480 will be chosen. But I can't think of two economists 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.680 I admire more than Kevin Hassett and Kevin Warsh. 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.760 It's interesting that you bring up President Trump's economic philosophy 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:12.800 because I think that if you were to press him 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.400 to describe his economic philosophy with regards to monetary policy, 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.800 he would just say he's a low interest rate guy. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.280 So is the expectation going to be from you know, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.000 Kevin Hazard or Kevin Warsh that they will just deliver 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:27.080 low interest rates. 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.280 You know, you make a good point. The one thing 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.240 that Trump has often said to me is that he 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.000 likes low interest rates. And and I've always said, well, 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.360 mister President, low interest rates are good, but we also 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.800 want to make sure we don't cause inflation. And so 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.520 that is the kind of dual competing interests here. But 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.480 I think he gets it that you know what destroys 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.360 a presidency is inflation for one of whatever. You know, 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.320 we saw Jimmy Jimmy Carter lose because of inflation. We 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.400 saw Jerry Ford lose because of inflation. We saw this. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.440 I think the major fat during this last of presidential 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.400 election was inflation. Americans hate, hate higher prices. It's one 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.760 of the reasons they're still in a foul mood on 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:15.120 the economy. So I believe that Kevin Hassett and Kevin 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.520 worsh either one of them, will be an inflation hawk, 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.760 and they will, I predict, we will bring that inflation 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:24.640 right down to two percent, But. 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.480 One does wonder, since he's not running again, assuming no 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.560 third term, that maybe he doesn't care if there's inflation. 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:31.720 I'm just going to put that out there. 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:32.840 Why don't you want to go somewhere? 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.000 I mean, the Republicans certainly care, and affordability is going 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.080 to be a key message for them in the mid 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.160 for everybody in the midterm. Hey, we only have thirty 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.520 seconds left, Steve. I just want to take a sharp 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.080 turn here because, yeah, because you are an economist and 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.640 you watch what's happening closely, the US taking a stake 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:52.240 in publicly traded companies such as Intel, MP, Materials and others. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.240 I don't like it. Hey, wow, no, no, no, never. 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.800 You know, I've spent most of my career trying to 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:04.280 advertized not nationalized. So it's one of those issues I 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.720 disagree with the President on. I don't want. I believe 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.160 in separation of business and state, and the less you know, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:14.160 the government does to you know, to influence business decisions. 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.000 I think the better your old school that way. 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:17.200 Yeah, I am. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.880 It's a different it's definitely a different Republican Party, at 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.080 least from a business perspective. Today. 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:23.680 I think there's a. 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.840 Lot of investors out there too who certainly would agree 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.360 with you. Steve, Thank you so much, Really enjoyed this. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.520 Steve Moore, co founder and share of the nonprofit Unleashed Prosperity, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.240 and of course, as we said, a former economic and 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.520 senior advisor to President Trump in both of his terms, 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.000 and of course are great thanks to our own Bloomberg 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.480 Economics US and candidate economist Stewart Paul. 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.600 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily podcast. Catch us 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.120 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.720 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.120 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.560 Let's get more on this week's FED decision and really 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.160 the macro environment when it comes to consumers and businesses, 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.080 and also what we're seeing when it comes to bank 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.160 lending today and maybe an outlook into the new year. 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.919 One company, one bank paying close attention to this is 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.399 Ohio based Huntington Bank Shares. The bank has a market 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.520 cap of nearly twenty seven billion dollars in recently has 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.680 been expanding with targeted acquisitions. It's had a pretty busy 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:24.760 year tim. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.400 With perspective on interest rates, the consumer, and the twenty 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.399 twenty six financial outlook. We turned to Zach Wasserman. He's 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.200 chief financial officer of Huntington Bank Shares, and he joined 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.480 us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Zach, great to 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.120 talk with you again, especially appreciate you coming into the studio. 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:40.400 Did the FED get it right? 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:41.160 I think they did. 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.720 You know, the analysis they did that showed the labor 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.120 markets still, of course softening to some degree, but inflation 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.720 pressures continuing to be present and with a potential for 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.440 some higher price pressures as we go into the early 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.440 part of next year. I think they got it right, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.680 and I think the outlook for they've said they'll probably 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.159 one additional cut into twenty twenty six. The market, by 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.840 the way, is making in two cuts for twenty twenty six. 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.160 Somewhere in that range seems very likely and I think 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:10.400 helpful for the economy at this point. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.480 All right, Zach, So if you were sitting down with J. 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:15.200 Powell, what would. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:16.240 You want to ask him right now? 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:18.520 That's a good question. What is he going to do 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:19.400 after he leaves his job? 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:21.120 Would you do you think he will leave his job 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:21.760 in this ring? 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:24.639 I would think so that's mine, that's myself. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.439 But do you think then also Kevin has it is 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.440 a given like we're seeing that the President's meeting with 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.040 Kevin warsh like, so it feels like things are still fluid. 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.040 Well, I'm not a party to those discussions. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.919 I have no clue, but I certainly think that you know, 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.919 as the uh uh, you know, as they as they 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.439 think about how that how they're going to chart their 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.359 course on interu straight policy, I think the path that 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.360 they've chosen at this point appears to be the right one, 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.439 very data reliant, appears to be you know, we're landing 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:53.800 that the economy in a sweet spot. 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.320 Okay, so can can Carol? Are you done with FED stuff? 0:18:57.359 --> 0:18:58.560 Can I talk em here? 0:18:58.640 --> 0:18:58.800 Yes? 0:18:58.920 --> 0:18:59.200 Okay? 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.479 To you haven't been so acquisitive. I mean there's been 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:02.719 a lot of M and A in your space. You've 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.880 been much more aggressive than others in your peer group. 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.680 Why now, in terms of the aggression aggressive posture. 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.200 Well, I wouldn't characterize our posture as aggressive. It's really, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:13.800 you know, for. 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:15.200 Us, expansive, that's for sure. 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:16.240 Well, certainly it's expansive. 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:17.840 It's been it's been a dynamic year for us, but 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.439 primarily from an organic growth perspective, Huntington has been growing 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.000 way faster than almost any other bank in the industry 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.440 at this point from an organic perspective. And so when 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:28.800 we think about these partnerships that we've announced, with the 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.360 pleasure to announce two partnerships this year, it's really all 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.320 in service of sustainable, long term organic growth. 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.160 We want to call them partnerships, not acquisition. 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:38.480 We really do, and that's intentional. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.840 The the partnerships we've created with Veritechs Bank and then 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:47.000 Cadence Bank, UH really are in fact bringing these organizations together, 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.320 making one plus one equals three and for us will 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.040 be a powerhouse in Texas, will be present in a 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.439 lot of terrific markets across the South, and and really 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.080 together we're going to be a much stronger organization. So 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.080 they really are partners and ultimately all in service of 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.200 long term sustainable organic growth. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.560 So you know, I've got family in South Carolina. They've 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:11.600 noticed some economic softness, and certainly the very Techs deal 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.040 was about North Carolina and South Carolina. They've seen softness 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.639 in real estate which had been on fire. I'm just 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.919 curious your expansion plans there, your organic growth that you 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:23.840 want to do there. I think you guys were looking 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.879 to open more than fifty branches in those states, So 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.119 is that impacting any of the growth? Are you on 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:30.720 target for them? 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:31.600 We're on target for that. 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.960 In fact, next year we expect to open one branch 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:35.760 every two weeks in the Carolina. So we've got some 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.000 products for your family, and we'd love to take you 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.240 on this customer. But we're really excited about that, and 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.680 in fact, the market reception we've had so far has 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:44.480 been tremendous. 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:45.640 We've opened a. 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:47.800 Several new branch locations just in the last few months, 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.680 and each of them have beat their full year first 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.440 year deposit plan before they've even opened, to give you 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:55.600 a sense, because the market reception has been so strong. 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.560 So with the look, I know, you know, I can 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.600 ask the question. But in terms of what you have 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:04.760 planned any more acquisitions? You know, look, how are you 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:05.320 thinking about it? 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:07.600 But the way we're thinking about it is if something 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:08.040 comes up. 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.760 Here hes you just said, they expect more, they expect 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:13.359 more acquisitions to happen. 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:14.119 Do you know. 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.640 I think the industry has been consolidating for twenty years. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.760 It will continue to consolidate for us. If something comes 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.240 up that's that's a creative to organic growth, that's a 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.520 great fit for us, will consider it. But otherwise it's 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:26.760 all about organic growth for us. 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:28.960 Geographically, what's an area of the country that's of interest 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:30.720 to you where you don't have a presence. 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.760 We love the markets that we're in right now, our markets. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.159 We're going to be twenty one states covering more than 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.719 fifty percent of the population of the country, and in 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.680 markets collectively that are growing thirty percent faster. 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:43.560 Than the national A lot of states you're not in. 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:47.160 True, you know, I think our view is we're not 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:48.200 trying to be a national bank. 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.440 We're trying to you're not trying to be a national. 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.240 Stake Explicitly, we want to be deeply present in the 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:53.879 states that we're in. 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.440 So would that mean that if there were more expansion, 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:58.360 it would be within the states that you're already in, 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.640 so you can become bigger in those place is rather 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.480 than expanding the geographic foot printed places or something fit. 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.080 I think that that's the right characterization. 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.280 Okay, yes, but I think again that's not our Our 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:08.679 objective is not m and a per se. 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.080 Our objective is organic growth. 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.280 The Goldman Financials Conference and I think that's part of 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.159 also why the KBW Bank Index really rallied in a 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.520 big way, our performance about two and a half percent higher. 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.320 They many said, and you guys presented there too, that 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.960 they're seeing a stable consumer despite worries of an economic 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.200 slow down. What are you guys seeing? 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:29.679 We're seeing the same. I think we just were up 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.399 on stage this morning ourselves. That's the consumer stable, Consumer 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.720 pipelines continue to be strong. From a lending perspective on 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:41.840 both consumer and commercial profitability is very strong. Credit is 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.080 very stable. It really looks like a solid economy from 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.000 our perspective. If all you did was read our internal reports, 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:50.639 it would belie what you're hearing in terms of the headlines, 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.320 which is very encouraging as we go into the end 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:54.360 of this year into next year. 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:56.800 Why do you think you're seeing that distinction, like you're 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:01.200 seeing something The anecdotes and indeed some data are showing 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:03.719 softness in places. Why are you seeing strengths? 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.800 Well, Look, I think in total, you're seeing consumer spending 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.200 continues to grow. Corporations I think are more confident today 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:11.560 than they would have been at the middle of this 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.280 year when there was more uncertainties in the environment. We've 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.720 had a tax bill pass, we've had more teriffs, certainty 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:22.480 come into the environment. The government is now functioning again. 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:24.840 I think as companies are looking forward into twenty six, 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.359 they're seeing this is another year of growth. 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:29.000 The Fed just came out today saying that. 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.159 The outlook for economic growth next year was more than 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:34.120 two percent GDP, and so that looks like an environment 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.440 where we should continue to be investing, continue to be expanding, 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.240 continue to be expanding. In from a commercial and consumer perspective, 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:43.280 there is of course a bit of a so called 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:47.560 K shaped shaped economy happening, and I think certain segments 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:52.960 of the consumer environment have faced pressures, particularly from inflation 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.360 and higher interest rates. Our bank does not have much 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:58.359 exposure to that, and I think in many cases the 0:23:58.400 --> 0:23:59.919 net of growth is continued to be. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:01.760 Who is your typical consumer? 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.400 You know, from us, we're focused on the mass affluent 0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:06.000 consumer base, and. 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.399 That's more specifically target we do, okay, sorry forgive me 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:09.800 go ahead. 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.480 We target the mass affluent, and we've got a very 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.320 strong base of consumers that are that are. 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:17.280 In that segment. 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:18.960 And then of course we also one of the large 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:21.560 and largest small business banks and commercial banks in the 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:22.160 country as well. 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:24.440 What does mass affluent mean in your markets? 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.000 You know, typically we're looking at customers who have a 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:29.440 net worth of or income of more than a hundred 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:31.560 thousand dollars, net worths that are that are high. And 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:33.719 of course we we bank everyone, and we really our 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:36.359 tagline is welcome to all, and we mean that. But 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:38.760 for the most part, our business is concentrated in that 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:39.680 mass affluent segment. 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:42.439 From it, so loan origination activity, tell us about what 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.960 you're kind of seeing since do you last reported? 0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:45.399 Yeah? 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:47.600 In fact, we just this morning showed a quarter to 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:50.119 date loan growth of two point eight billion dollars sequentially 0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:52.240 from last quarter. Yeah, we're growing at about eight to 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:55.560 nine percent year on year right now, Uh, and actually 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:57.840 exceeding our own forecast that we set just a month ago. 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:01.880 In the brad press efforts today, I've found what jap 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:06.199 Powis said about AI really fascinating. This idea of productivity, 0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:08.920 and it's going to get me to ask every single 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:10.720 person I talked to about how not just how they're 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:15.280 using AI, but like productivity increases at your bank, Like 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:16.959 what are you seeing? How are they using it? 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.320 We're doing a lot in AI actually increasing it sure is. 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:22.000 I mean to give you a sense. Last year, in 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:25.160 the fourth quarter, we had two GENAI projects going through 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:29.080 our risk evaluation and implementation. Today we have thirty. There's 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:31.520 about a dozen per month that are coming into the pipeline. 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.400 Software engineering is being made much more more productive. We're 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:40.600 seeing all manner of internal process improvement and now customer 0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:44.040 facing applications as well, things that make the loan approval 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:47.280 process seamless and more effective, more personalized service. 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:49.119 Is that going to increase earnings for you? 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:52.320 Look, I think it will certainly create capacity for us 0:25:52.359 --> 0:25:55.520 to then invest more. You know, our modus operandi is 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:59.359 to harvest and try to drive efficiencies in the baseline 0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:02.560 costs can deploy those expenses into investments. 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.000 A few years ago, I used to actually drive up 0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:07.159 to make a deposit. I used to talk to a teller. 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:09.399 I mean I was a kid at the time, you know, 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:11.560 and had my little book. But having said that, I 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:13.720 don't talk to a teller for the most part anymore. 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:17.680 So will AI in your estimation? We are talking to CEOs. 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:19.680 Our team, our tech team just did a big AI 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:23.520 report and they're talking to executives across industries. Everybody seems 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.720 to be in an AI, but in terms of VET JR. J. 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:30.360 Powell saying AI hasn't really impacted the labor market yet, 0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:32.000 will it does? 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:32.720 It has to? 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:33.280 Right? 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.479 Look, I think in the end AI will touch almost 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:40.400 every element of human life and commercial activity and ultimately 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:45.440 will supplant many of the more rote processes. 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:47.080 That we use people to do. But it'll mean people 0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:50.119 could do other things. This will be a change in 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:51.040 the in. 0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:53.480 The labor force in terms of what people are are doing, 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:57.119 and there's things that people can uniquely do. Make judgments, 0:26:57.680 --> 0:27:02.880 be creative, interact with other people, lead organizations. I think, 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.600 you know what's incumbent upon all employees And I think 0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:08.240 about this myself, is you know where can I shift 0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:10.480 my activities to where I uniquely add value? 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:11.760 People matter? 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:12.640 You matter? 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:14.840 Ah, thank you, Thank you, Jan you matter. 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:16.520 Zach Wasserman, thank you so much. 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:16.840 With you. 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:22.480 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.439 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:28.399 Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 0:27:28.440 --> 0:27:31.240 You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:35.280 flagship New York station, just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven. 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:38.480 Thirty So next with us, we want to get into 0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:40.720 what we have been talking about a lot this year, Matt, 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:42.680 and that is the AI and data center build at 0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:45.919 It is really one of the biggest stories of really 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:48.280 this year, but also I feel like the last few 0:27:48.320 --> 0:27:51.399 years question remains of where all the power needed for 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:53.119 them will come from and who will pay for it? 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:55.520 And on that we had next Era Energy. It's a 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:59.360 clean energy company focuses on wind, solar, and battery storage energy. 0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:03.040 They announced plans to expand into net gas natural gas, 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:05.879 including a power plant deal with Exceon and Google, and 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:09.080 plans to buy the gas retailer Symmetry Energy Solutions. The 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:11.639 company also anounce a deal with Meta to supply it 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.200 with both clean energy and evaluate a new gas fired 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:17.600 power plant out in the Midwest. And then don't forget back. 0:28:17.640 --> 0:28:19.879 In October, the company also made some headlines with plans 0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:23.000 to revive a nuclear power plant for Google's data centers. 0:28:23.040 --> 0:28:25.639 This has been an all in theme if you will, 0:28:26.080 --> 0:28:28.439 this year, So let's get into it with two of 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:31.000 our team members Bloomberg News energy reporters Will Wait and 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:34.880 Josh Saul, both here in studio. So, guys, I mean 0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:39.560 deals being made. We know that there's a lot going on, Josh, 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:42.520 let me start with you in terms of significant changes. 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:44.200 Is a lot of this just talk or we're starting 0:28:44.200 --> 0:28:46.800 to see action in terms of changes to the grid 0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:47.960 adding capacity? 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:48.800 What are we seeing? 0:28:49.200 --> 0:28:51.560 Thanks, First, I'd say next Era not just a clean 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:54.680 energy company. It's a huge utility. And then they have 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:58.640 a big development arm that historically has done a massive 0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:01.640 amount of clean energy. It's changing is that they're going 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:04.640 that development arm is going more and more into developing 0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:07.960 gas and then also turning on turning back on a 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.920 nuclear power plant in order to power these data centers. 0:29:11.240 --> 0:29:14.400 So it's what we saw was really investors looking at 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.320 that change and saying we're not sure that that change 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:20.160 is happening fast enough and strong enough for what we expected. 0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:26.400 So but they are like a best in class developer 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:31.160 of especially renewable energy right as well. Hence next Era 0:29:32.040 --> 0:29:34.320 can they become a best in class gas developer. 0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:37.520 The investors we talk to think that they can. But 0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:39.440 similar to what we've seen with some of the independent 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:43.880 power producers, there's just a really big hunger among investors 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:46.600 to see these deals coming faster and faster, and investors 0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:50.000 want more details. They're fine to see a big new 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:52.400 announcement saying that we plan to do things with Google, 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.720 but they want to see signed contracts for deals with 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:59.880 price points and timelines. And when we don't see the 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.240 those kind of details, we see big share drops. 0:30:02.480 --> 0:30:04.040 Well that's it, you know, we'll come on in on 0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:06.440 here because I think you know, some of what we 0:30:06.440 --> 0:30:08.360 were hearing. I was hearing for a while too, was 0:30:08.440 --> 0:30:12.000 that when it comes to companies, especially kind of the 0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:15.040 MAGSV and the big hyperscalars, they were signing up or 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:19.560 announcing deals with a lot of different utility companies, but because. 0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:21.600 They wanted to make sure wherever they got. 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:23.680 Their power, they got power, and that maybe not all 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.840 of that would be carried out. 0:30:25.960 --> 0:30:27.920 In other words, they wouldn't get power from all of them. 0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:32.400 Yeah, we've seen just deal after deal after deal, all 0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:35.520 these tech companies. They need as much electricity as they 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:37.640 can get it, and they need it, They need it yesterday. 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:41.200 They can't bring it on fast enough. And we've seen 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:44.640 a lot of people talking about building power plants, but 0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:48.280 we really need to see these plants actually getting built 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:51.320 and getting connected to the grid and sending real electricity. 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:53.760 Why aren't they getting built? Is it because they're expensive. 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:57.400 There's regulatory issues, there's where you build them, issues like 0:30:57.440 --> 0:30:57.920 what is it? 0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:01.000 There's a lot of regulatory issues. They it used to 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:04.160 be expensive, but tech companies have so much money to 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:06.200 throw at the problem that I wouldn't say that's top 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:09.960 of the list nowadays. But there's definitely connection problems. We 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:13.480 need to build the wiring to deliver the power. There's 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.720 just so much stuff that has to happen, you know that. 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:18.640 I can't remember who wrote it, but a couple of 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:22.320 years ago there was an insane Business Week story about 0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:27.640 how difficult it was to put up lines right from 0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:32.840 power developers to the end customer and it took, you know, 0:31:33.040 --> 0:31:36.240 years and years of trying to get through this regulation. 0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:40.680 Is there any sign that this administration is going to 0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:45.040 be getting rid of that regulations as it has, you know, 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:46.200 wanted to do. 0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:47.840 I've written stories like that. 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:50.120 There's a power line that was going through Colorado that 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:53.320 had been planned for seventeen years to get the you know, 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:55.560 to wind energy from Wyoming to you know, all the 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:58.040 people in southern California was where that line was supposed 0:31:58.080 --> 0:31:59.960 to go, and it just kept getting hung up on 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:04.200 different things. The Trump administration has made announcements and has 0:32:04.240 --> 0:32:07.560 executive orders about clearing out red tape and making all 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:11.800 of this happen faster. But the actual, the actual grease, 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:15.160 the actual what's needed to speed that up, I think 0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:18.440 takes even kind of deeper work in these regulatory agencies 0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:20.720 on It remains to be seen whether any of that, 0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:22.680 any of that bluster, actually ends up. 0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:27.719 To you big executive orders just canceling state regulations on 0:32:27.720 --> 0:32:29.680 this and taking over with federal control. 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:32.120 Well that's the difference, right, because the states have some say. 0:32:31.920 --> 0:32:32.360 In all of this. 0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:36.120 They do, and the executive orders can't just wipe out 0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.360 existing laws. As much as Trump thinks sometimes he has 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:41.720 that power, he doesn't have all the power he thinks 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:42.120 he has. 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:43.320 So all of. 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:46.040 These things that the President has said, we're going to 0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:49.440 do this, it really bumps up against the realities of 0:32:49.520 --> 0:32:50.880 the regulatory process. 0:32:51.360 --> 0:32:55.640 It does seem like this administration is against certain forms 0:32:55.640 --> 0:33:00.840 of power generation wind for example. It's no secret that 0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:04.600 Donald Trump hates wind power. He cares a lot about birds, 0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:06.480 and he's worried about them. 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.680 He's taken huge steps to make it much harder to 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.400 develop wind power and solar power, and he really would 0:33:12.440 --> 0:33:15.200 love to see more gas and anything to do with 0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:18.760 fossil fuels. But it's it's a short sighted policy. We 0:33:18.800 --> 0:33:22.360 really do need everything, and you know, solar is the 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:24.720 fastest thing we can build, but gas is pretty close 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:26.600 to it, and that's probably what we're going to see 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:27.440 a lot of real soon. 0:33:28.080 --> 0:33:30.320 But if we're going to build fifteen giga lots of 0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:35.040 power new power production in the next what seven years, 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:38.520 don't we need to use every possible source. 0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:40.440 We definitely, we definitely do. 0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:42.600 But what we saw I was looking I was pouring 0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:46.520 through the Next Era release today and you see their 0:33:46.880 --> 0:33:49.560 renewable plans kind of going up through twenty thirty, but 0:33:49.600 --> 0:33:51.520 then there's the phase out, you know, the Trump phase 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:53.760 out of clean energy tax credits, and then they sort 0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:54.240 of plateau. 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:56.840 Well, the other thing is nuclear, and we've talked a 0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:59.840 lot about nuclear like this is not. Everybody's talking about 0:33:59.880 --> 0:34:02.120 it like it's going to just happen tomorrow, and it's 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:03.360 that's not the case. 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:05.000 This is years in the making. 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.120 Still, the line I've been used about nuclear for the 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:10.480 past few months is that there's a lot happening in 0:34:10.560 --> 0:34:13.560 nuclear and there's nothing happening in a nuclear So lots 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.760 of people are talking about it. There's smart people trying 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:20.200 to do smart things. It just moves slower than anything 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:21.440 else we write about. 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:25.320 So a nuclear I guess, must be almost as beloved 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:30.279 as coal and natural gas by this administration. Is what 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:32.680 we're seeing with next era is that kind of an 0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:37.800 admission that the clean energy, you know, renewable economics without 0:34:37.920 --> 0:34:41.480 these tax credits just don't really work out next year. 0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:43.360 It makes the point a lot that the clean energy 0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:46.080 is the fastest way to hook up new data centers. 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:48.759 But I think they also see that with kind of that, 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:51.200 with the headwind of the Trump tax credits going away, 0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:53.080 they need to in order to get the kind of 0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:56.560 earnings growth that investors expect, they have to expand beyond 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:59.120 clean energy and do a lot more gas, which they've 0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:01.040 already done with their regular related utility, but they need 0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:05.440 to do with their unregulated development arm and they need 0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:08.479 to get this data center game really dialed down. 0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:09.920 But we've talked, right, guys. 0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:12.120 I mean, when it comes to wind solar, like these 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:16.000 alternative energy, they financially make sense for a lot of 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:18.640 businesses much more than they did initially. Right, They make 0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:21.120 sense in terms of the investment the Coster. 0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.000 Are you Wind and solar are the cheapest forms of 0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.319 new power to build, Yeah, have been for a while. 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:27.920 So why aren't we doing also? 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:31.400 I mean, try getting a turbine right now. I mean 0:35:31.480 --> 0:35:36.520 it's not glass turbine, no wind propeller, right isn't the 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:37.600 waiting list years. 0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:40.920 It's the gas turbines that we're seeing the biggest waitlist 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:45.880 for these days, and especially because the hostility of the 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:48.920 Trump administration for the wind farms, I haven't heard as 0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:49.560 many complaints. 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:52.279 So you can get the wind turbines, you can get 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:52.920 the windmills. 0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:56.239 You can't get the turbine for your backyard, Okay, but 0:35:56.320 --> 0:35:57.240 it's hard to connect. 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:00.560 There's still a years long wait to connect new power 0:36:00.600 --> 0:36:01.040 to the grid. 0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:02.960 Yeah, you run into the same sort of permitting and 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:05.040 roadblocks that you do kind of with anything. 0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:05.600 Well, is the. 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:08.479 Grid ready for all of this extra energy? I mean, Josh, 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:10.120 I mean that's the other thing that we've talked about, 0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:11.120 I feel like for years. 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:12.680 So that get says another thing that my team has 0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:15.120 been talking about the most recently, which is affordability. Just 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:17.919 two steps to get there. Upgrading the grid in order 0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:19.920 to add all these new data centers and Also, all 0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:22.520 this new clean energy just takes a lot of upgrades, 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:25.240 a lot of a lot of making the grid stronger, better, faster, 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:28.200 more transmission lines running around to connect in both data 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:30.640 centers and also to connect in new new new forms 0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:32.759 of power, whether it's a gas plan or solar. All 0:36:32.800 --> 0:36:36.200 those upgrades cost a lot of money. Those costs are 0:36:36.239 --> 0:36:39.200 spread out pretty broadly among all customers, so we're seeing 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:44.640 big rate increases, both big bill increases UH for customers. 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:47.239 And people are angry. People are really mad. And we 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:51.160 saw that in elections in Virginia and New Jersey, yes, 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:53.760 and we expect to see it in the mid terms 0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:54.239 next year. 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:54.960 It's so funny. 0:36:54.960 --> 0:36:57.520 I was just with a bunch of family down like 0:36:57.520 --> 0:37:00.000 in South Carolina, and that's what we talked about power 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:04.319 prices and how they are incented to do things like 0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.439 you know, air conditioning, do it, I guess at night 0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:09.800 or something and so and then turn it off like 0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:11.600 when they get up, so that the house stays cool, 0:37:11.840 --> 0:37:14.719 but they're not taxing the grid when everybody else is. 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.440 Some of that's good, some efficiency is good, but the 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:20.400 level of anger and people talking about it the way 0:37:20.400 --> 0:37:24.080 they've historically talked about gas gasoline prices or more recently 0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:27.640 eggs and groceries. The fact that that's now slashing over 0:37:27.680 --> 0:37:30.360 onto utilities is a rough thing for these companies to 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:30.719 deal with. 0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:31.959 Is it just likely to get worse? 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.800 Well, because it's just the demand is increasingly there. 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:39.440 Yeah, we definitely think power prices are going to continue 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:41.839 to go up. We'll hear a lot more about it 0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:44.759 next year during the elections. And don't forget about the 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:48.440 cost to upgrade the grid to protect it from climate 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:52.279 change issues, wildfires and hurricanes. That's another cost that's going 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:54.600 to everyone is going to have to bear. 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:57.160 One way an analysts put it to me is power 0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:00.200 bills are going up across the country different different reasons 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:02.719 and different places. Might be going up in California because 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:05.480 of wildfire resilience, might be going up in Baltimore because 0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:08.399 of the proximity to Data Center Alley, But power bills 0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:10.720 are going up almost entirely across the country. 0:38:10.760 --> 0:38:14.799 Can I just ask on on nuclear will because this 0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:17.439 is your bag, right, I get that there won't be 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:22.400 too many new projects coming online anytime soon. Right, you 0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:24.640 were down at the opening of a new nuclear plant 0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:25.240 in Georgia. 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:26.160 That was last year. 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:29.399 I know but okay, I remember you talking about it. 0:38:29.560 --> 0:38:33.919 But what about recommission deal, what about decommissioned plants being 0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:37.000 brought back online, like three Mile, like Palisades, Like, how 0:38:37.040 --> 0:38:38.919 many of those are we going to see that will 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:41.839 increase the nuclear power capacity. 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:45.279 There is, it's a short list, and almost everyone on 0:38:45.320 --> 0:38:48.600 the list is it's happening now, like the next era one. 0:38:48.760 --> 0:38:51.000 That's the jang Armyl plants in Iowa. We heard about 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:53.680 that just a little while ago. There are three Mile 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:56.680 Islands coming on in twenty twenty seven. Palisades is coming 0:38:56.719 --> 0:38:59.840 on January February, and after that. There's just not that 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:04.120 any that are good candidates. So we're going to hear 0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:07.040 more about the ones. I think people are exploring them. 0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:12.200 There's the VC Summer plant in the Carolinas, So people 0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:15.040 are looking at doing that for everyone that they possibly 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:17.120 can make an economic case for doing it. 0:39:17.400 --> 0:39:17.560 COO. 0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:19.239 I mean some of the old ones, they cut them 0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:20.919 up and took them away. I went and toward one 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:23.640 a few years ago in Vermont, a Vermont Yankee plant, 0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:26.080 and that plant was decommissioned when power prices were low. 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:28.759 We were when we were long power, and I went 0:39:28.840 --> 0:39:30.000 up there and by the time I went up there, 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:32.160 and I think twenty twenty three, we were starting to 0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:34.359 see some of the increase in power demand. And while 0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:35.880 I was there, I was a little like, you got 0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:37.520 sure you want to cut this up, but I mean 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:39.440 the process that started it was decommissioned. 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:40.480 They cut the thing apart. 0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:43.719 It was all taken on special trains to Texas where 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:47.359 it's buried very deep in the Texas dirt. Because that's 0:39:47.360 --> 0:39:51.120 what you do with radioactive material, can't. 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:53.480 Texas, I mean, you got to do something with this stuff. 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:54.719 Can't fire that one back up? 0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:57.680 Hey, guys, thank you so much. Really enjoy this. I'm 0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:01.239 really smart. Joshaw Saul, energy reporter at Bloomberg News. Here 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:03.919 in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. Will Wait, also energy 0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:05.000 reporter at Bloomberg News. 0:40:05.120 --> 0:40:06.600 Also right here in studio. 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:13.120 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:16.640 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen 0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:20.240 on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:23.719 or watch us live on YouTube play head on our 0:40:23.719 --> 0:40:26.120 second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:29.000 including the CEO of Compass Pathways, back with us. 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:33.600 That's the company behind treating depression and PTSD using silocybin. 0:40:34.000 --> 0:40:37.239 We'll get an update on their route to FDA approval. 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:40.000 Plus tips on organizing a loved one's of state and 0:40:40.080 --> 0:40:43.160 the perfect time piece gift. Yes, we're talking about watches 0:40:43.680 --> 0:40:45.720 for all types of people in your life. Price tag 0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:48.600 included courtesy of our watch guru, Chris Rouser. 0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:50.719 Had lots of gift ideas off of that one. Hey, 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:53.160 first of this hour, It's called the Solar Sunbather. 0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:54.440 It has three wheels. 0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:57.200 It looks like it belongs in outer space. It could 0:40:57.280 --> 0:40:59.879 possibly though, hit the roads in twenty twenty six. 0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:03.600 No, it's not a SpaceX tricycle. We're talking about the 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:07.480 futuristic looking solar powered vehicles behind Aptera Motors. This is 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:10.680 a California based solar mobility company. It was formed back 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:13.839 in twenty nineteen. It's in a testing phase to release 0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:16.279 its cars on the roads and select states next year. 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.560 For more on the company's plans, Carol and our car 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:22.359 lover and very serious driver too. 0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:23.160 Yes he is. 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:25.480 Matt Miller caught up with the co CEO of Aptera, 0:41:25.680 --> 0:41:26.360 Chris Anthony. 0:41:26.440 --> 0:41:28.760 Hey, Chris, good to have you here with Matt and myself. 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:30.319 I know he's going to take over in one minute 0:41:30.320 --> 0:41:33.040 because he's our car guy or one of our car guys. 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.759 But tell us a little bit about where the company is. 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:38.799 You're in your what sixth year, tell us about where 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.959 the car is, where you're going, you're on the road, 0:41:42.000 --> 0:41:43.719 you're testing, tell us a little bit about it. 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:47.560 Yeah, Terara's currently in final validation and we're looking to 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:51.359 press into full production in twenty twenty six, and it's 0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:54.279 just exciting to see the vehicle come together and see 0:41:54.280 --> 0:41:55.839 solar mobility finally on the road. 0:41:56.200 --> 0:42:01.360 You know, clearly the current zeitgeist is not what you 0:42:01.360 --> 0:42:07.520 would consider pro solar car. The administration seems not to 0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:11.520 be the biggest fan of alternative energy or renewable energy. 0:42:11.840 --> 0:42:15.200 On the other hand, they've given you a ton of 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:22.080 what I must believe are very incentivizing tax rules in 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:24.600 the current one big beautiful bill, especially if you're going 0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:27.720 to manufacture in this country, which you are right, Yeah. 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:31.640 We're manufacturing in Carlsbad, California. But you know, there is 0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:35.879 a global supply chain for vehicles like this, and we 0:42:35.960 --> 0:42:39.439 hope that you know, there's enough investment in the US 0:42:39.520 --> 0:42:41.840 to bring more and more of that supply chain. You know, 0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:44.239 over in time, what are. 0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:46.560 The critical pieces that you need, Like what do you 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:50.920 need to import and pay tariffs on and what can 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:54.840 you get from this country in order to build your car? 0:42:56.680 --> 0:43:00.360 You know, initially we partnered with LG. Kim in a 0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:03.240 company called CTNS in Korea to make our battery packs. 0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:07.719 But we're bringing cell manufacture over to Tennessee and bringing 0:43:07.719 --> 0:43:11.120 the equipment over to manufacture our battery packs here in Carlsbag, California. 0:43:11.200 --> 0:43:16.200 So that's been assisted by California Energy Commission grant and 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:19.160 we hope to have all that production here in the US, 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:21.879 hopefully by the end of twenty twenty six, maybe twenty 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:22.399 twenty seven. 0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:26.480 What's the most difficult aspect of what you're doing and 0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:30.560 trying to create a market essentially for it and then 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:33.439 ramp up, Like what is the trickiest part right here? 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:37.040 Yeah, you know, most companies start with a minimum viable 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:39.880 product and transportation. You know, it's kind of about the 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:42.160 styling of the vehicle and how many cupholders it has, 0:43:42.760 --> 0:43:45.480 how many passengers. That's not really where we started. We 0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:49.680 started with how do we make the most efficient transportation possible? 0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:53.560 And then it became this solar powered masterpiece that we 0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:56.160 have now. But we really didn't know what kind of 0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:58.640 market there was. We weren't able to study the market 0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:01.279 for something that didn't exist, so we kind of had 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:03.680 to just build what we wanted to bring to the 0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:06.840 world and then hope that people really liked it. And luckily, 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:09.279 within the first couple weeks of announcing it, we had 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:12.160 over four thousand orders. Now we have almost fifty thousand 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:15.719 orders for the app Tarra, and you know, we think 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:19.680 people are really excited about transportation built for efficiency's sake, 0:44:20.040 --> 0:44:22.000 and something that can be solar powered, something that you 0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:23.839 never have to worry about putting gas in at, something 0:44:23.880 --> 0:44:25.439 you never have to worry about plugging it in. 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:27.520 Do you have to worry about range? 0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:31.200 The standard version of the app Terra gets four hundred 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:34.400 miles of range, plus it gets the solar charging that 0:44:34.440 --> 0:44:36.320 it gets every day just by leaving it out in 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:40.239 the sun. But we do offer larger range models of 0:44:40.239 --> 0:44:42.200 our app Teara up to one thousand miles. 0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:48.360 Of range, so that's easily enough for my daily commute. 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:52.680 The car looks really, I mean, it looks cool, looks weird, 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:56.239 looks different, it's a three wheeler. I guess that would 0:44:56.280 --> 0:44:58.719 be so that you can classify it as a motorcycle. 0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:01.719 Correct me if I'm wrong. And you've got these outboard 0:45:01.760 --> 0:45:04.400 fenders on the front, two wheels and then one wheel 0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:04.919 in the back. 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:06.000 Tell us about the design. 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:06.839 Yeah. 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:09.200 You know what most people don't realize is that sixty 0:45:09.200 --> 0:45:12.000 to seventy percent of your fuel that highway speeds just 0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:14.279 goes to pushing air out of the way if you're 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:18.440 in a typical suv or sedan. So we started, you know, 0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:23.200 with aerodynamics when it comes to making transportation more efficient. 0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:25.440 That's why it looks more like a fish than a box. 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:29.120 And with something that looks so unique, you also want 0:45:29.120 --> 0:45:32.319 to eliminate any weight you can. So it's very light weight, 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:35.600 and that made it three wheels, so there's less rolling resistance, 0:45:35.680 --> 0:45:38.400 less weight, and that three wheels has some unique advantages, 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:41.120 and that we're classified as the motorcycle. But because it's 0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:43.240 three wheels, you don't have to have a motorcycle's license. 0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:44.920 Because you have something over your head, you don't have 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:49.080 to wear a helmet. And in California, evs are no 0:45:49.200 --> 0:45:54.040 longer allowed. Brought us admission to the HOV Lane the 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:57.120 High Occupy Vehicle lane, so will be the only EV 0:45:57.840 --> 0:45:59.880 that's able to drive in the HOV lane without it 0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:00.680 your restrictions. 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:05.439 So that's interesting that you can get You can sort 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:08.800 of weave through different regulations with a three wheeled vehicle, 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:11.720 and that's why you've seen some of the coolest experimental vehicles, 0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:14.080 from the Morgan three wheeler. 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:15.359 To this app Tara car. 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:18.839 It's got us room for two people inside, right, as 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:21.840 well as I guess luggage or a pet or whatever 0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:26.319 you want to bring along. What's it like when you're 0:46:26.360 --> 0:46:29.080 driving around? I mean, everybody must be rubbernecking. 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:30.719 How come you haven't driven one yet? 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:31.000 Yeah? 0:46:31.000 --> 0:46:32.279 How come I haven't driven one yet? 0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.719 Chris, Well, we need to get you in one soon, Matt. 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:39.000 It's a pleasure to drive. It's super super quiet. It's 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:42.080 kind of eerily quiet because a lot of the noise 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.839 you hear in a typical suv or sedan is win 0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:48.800 noise buffeting off the vehicle at higher speeds, But because 0:46:48.840 --> 0:46:51.960 the Aptera cuts through the wind so nicely, you don't 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:53.560 really get a lot of that. So it's very different 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.000 kind of driving experience. It's quick, it's a zero to 0:46:56.000 --> 0:46:58.600 sixty and five seconds top speed one hundred miles an hour, 0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:03.040 and you know, it's definitely something that gets attention if 0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:05.480 you are an introvert to maybe this is not the 0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:08.680 vehicle for you initially because any Starbucks that you pull 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:10.760 up to you're gonna bring a crowd. 0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:13.200 But you can take it off the beaten path, right. 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:17.319 I mean, I'm sure I've seen the website because I 0:47:17.360 --> 0:47:22.319 recall pictures of maybe the Aptara on a beach or 0:47:22.400 --> 0:47:24.880 in the woods. It comes with or you can buy 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.600 I guess camping gear or a kit that goes along 0:47:28.600 --> 0:47:30.719 with it so that you can get out there. And 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:33.080 plus the fact that it's a solar charging you can 0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:35.880 charge with the sun up to forty miles a day, right, 0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:38.240 means that you can really take it off the grid. 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:40.960 It's a little deceptive on the storage. There's actually thirty 0:47:40.960 --> 0:47:43.080 five cubic feet of storage. 0:47:42.680 --> 0:47:43.120 In the back. 0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:46.560 If you put the front seat forward and the passenger side, 0:47:46.560 --> 0:47:49.000 you have seven feet of space from the tail to 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:51.360 the tips. You can put surfboards back there, mountain bikes, 0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:53.040 you can actually leave the hatch up, and there's a 0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:55.920 camping kit where there's a tent that goes over the 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:58.800 back of the vehicle so you can camp to people comfortably. 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:01.560 But most importantly, it's very cool to think that you 0:48:01.600 --> 0:48:04.240 can drive two hundred miles to your favorite camping spot, 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:06.319 you can camp for a week, and you can come 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:08.440 back with more energy in your app tear than you 0:48:08.560 --> 0:48:08.920 left with. 0:48:09.239 --> 0:48:11.120 Unless it rains or no. 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:15.080 It does get less solar production, you know, if it's 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:18.200 super cloudy or if it rains. You know, if it's cloudy, 0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:20.760 you can count on maybe half of the energy production. 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:23.120 You know, if it's a white out snow, obviously you're 0:48:23.160 --> 0:48:23.520 not going to. 0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:24.200 Get much solar. 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:28.560 But it's really a whole new vehicle category, a vehicle 0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:31.560 that creates its own fuel. There's never been anything like 0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:34.840 it where you purchased the vehicle and you're also purchasing 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:36.440 a lifetime's worth of fuel with it. 0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:39.560 Yeah. Hey, we're talking with Chris Anthony, Co, chief executive 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:43.200 officer of Aptera Motors, joining us from Carlsbad, California. You know, 0:48:43.239 --> 0:48:45.880 I mentioned that the company began in twenty sixteen, but 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:48.640 it's really like an iteration of a company that goes 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:52.839 back a while. I think going back to actually two 0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:56.320 thousand and six, it was a company. I think it liquidated, 0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:58.759 it came back as a second company, and now it's 0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:02.120 the third company. Or anything like if someone you know, googles, 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:04.879 it might be like, God, this feels a little uncomfortable. 0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:08.920 Anything that connects you to kind of the history of 0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:10.440 this company from day one. 0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:11.520 Yeah, you know. 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:14.120 I met Steve Fambreau in two thousand and five. He 0:49:14.200 --> 0:49:16.720 had a vision for how to make vehicles more efficient. 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:19.360 It was a bit perplexed that there are some vehicles 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:21.400 on the road that you would think should be efficient. 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:25.200 You know, things that look aerodynamic. You know a VW bug. 0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:27.960 Why doesn't that get more than fifty miles per gallon? 0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:31.600 It really all comes down to the aerodynamic losses, the 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:34.520 weight losses. So how would you make the most efficient 0:49:34.600 --> 0:49:38.120 vehicle possible? And that's what Steve and I set out 0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:41.280 to bring advanced engineering too, is if you really tackle 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:44.960 the problem from a first engineering principles perspective, and what 0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:46.480 do you end up with? You end up with a 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:49.600 vehicle looks more like a fish. It's about two thousand pounds, 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:52.960 it has three wheels, and it has an electric power train. 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:56.680 That's the most efficient way to get energy to the wheels. 0:49:57.400 --> 0:50:00.839 You know, by happenstance. We created something that it's some 0:50:01.160 --> 0:50:04.160 three hundred and fifty miles per gallon equivalent, and when 0:50:04.160 --> 0:50:06.720 you do that, you can put a relatively small solar 0:50:06.760 --> 0:50:10.000 package on top but get really useful range. We get 0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:13.480 about forty miles a day of free power just from 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:15.759 leaving the app tear out in the sun. So if 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:17.880 you're like the average American and you only drive thirty 0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:20.920 miles a day, forty miles a day of solar charging 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:24.360 is great. You just never have to plug the vehicle in, 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:26.839 You just leave it outside and takes care of all 0:50:26.880 --> 0:50:28.040 your average driving needs. 0:50:28.160 --> 0:50:29.960 So, Chris, is this something that you really see for 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:32.880 local driving? I'm curious if it taps out at sixty 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:35.480 five miles an hour or is it? 0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:35.920 Does it? 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:37.960 How fast can it go and can it be on 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.120 highways or what's your vmax? 0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:40.560 Dude? 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:41.000 Thank you? 0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:43.160 Yeah, you're. 0:50:44.480 --> 0:50:48.520 The suspension handling characteristics are great. You know, it's a 0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:51.080 very spirited drive zero to sixty and five seconds, but 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:53.320 you're actually faster, you know, at the upper ends of 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:56.240 the speed. You know, thirty to sixty you know is faster, 0:50:56.360 --> 0:50:58.080 and a top speed of one hundred miles an hour. 0:50:58.200 --> 0:51:01.080 So definitely driving it on the highway. It's made to 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:04.399 be a southern California vehicle. You know, lots of sun 0:51:04.440 --> 0:51:07.120 out here. It's made to be more than, you know, 0:51:07.239 --> 0:51:10.000 just a commuter vehicle. You can you know, take it 0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:13.000 and you know, do the family shopping. You can you 0:51:13.120 --> 0:51:15.759 pick up the kids from the school. You can do 0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:20.160 a lot with this vehicle. In terms of usability. 0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:22.799 I also see that it can fit individuals of up 0:51:22.840 --> 0:51:24.960 to six foot eight, which is important for. 0:51:24.960 --> 0:51:27.839 Me because you're six want I'm six four, but I 0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:28.319 want six. 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:30.200 I need leg room, right, I don't. 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:33.600 I get claustrophobic and normal cars and planes, so I 0:51:33.680 --> 0:51:36.880 need my space. And by the way, as you're to 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.880 sixteen five seconds, when I was in college, that was 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:42.920 what a nine to eleven was doing. So that's respectable, 0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:46.440 really respectable. I mean there's still a lot of cars 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:48.840 that can't do that. Of course, you got the instant 0:51:48.880 --> 0:51:51.040 torquere getting up to one hundred miles an hour. I 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:55.279 rarely exceed that speed when I'm driving to and from work. 0:51:55.360 --> 0:51:58.000 I try to come close when there's nobody around. How 0:51:58.000 --> 0:51:59.920 many orders have you got for this? 0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:02.799 I mean, how many people do you think you're going 0:52:02.880 --> 0:52:04.840 to sell this car to when it goes into final production. 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:06.760 Justus twenty seconds. 0:52:06.840 --> 0:52:10.120 Yeah, we've got almost fifty thousand orders, but we hope 0:52:10.160 --> 0:52:12.600 to deliver up to a million Appteara in the next 0:52:12.640 --> 0:52:15.560 ten years. It took Tesla thirteen years to deliver their 0:52:15.600 --> 0:52:17.279 million vehicles. We hope to do it in ten. 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:19.239 Well, I can't wait for Matt to try it out 0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:21.359 and report back, and then you can come back on 0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:24.240 with us. Chris Chris Anthony, co CEO of Epterra Mortars 0:52:24.320 --> 0:52:26.080 joining us. 0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:30.680 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 0:52:30.760 --> 0:52:33.680 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car 0:52:33.760 --> 0:52:36.719 Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You 0:52:36.760 --> 0:52:39.960 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:43.600 New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:52:44.560 --> 0:52:47.600 Well, remember when we couldn't stop talking about psychedelics and 0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:50.320 their potential use for treating a range of related mental 0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:53.840 and physical health conditions. Well this was during and just 0:52:53.880 --> 0:52:57.200 after the pandemic. But then in twenty twenty two we 0:52:57.239 --> 0:53:01.239 saw prices collapse. Money was pulling out investors off, and 0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:04.799 trial results weren't what they needed to be Well, it's 0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:06.000 now having a resurgence. 0:53:06.440 --> 0:53:09.320 Just this year, US Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:12.960 Kennedy Junior said he could envision approval for psychedelic drugs 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:16.000 as treatment for depression and trauma if clinical studies have 0:53:16.040 --> 0:53:20.959 been conducted. Plus Bloomberg Intelligence analysis estimates that the market 0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:23.400 could grow to seven billion dollars in sales by twenty 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:27.080 thirty two. Analysts say that market potential quote is clear, 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:30.279 but companies could still run into issues with regulators and 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:31.120 in scaling up. 0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:33.400 Yeah, still not a straight path forward. Hey back with 0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:36.720 an update though, on his company's path two FDA approval 0:53:36.760 --> 0:53:39.160 for some of the psychedelic treatments we put up with 0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:42.840 Kabir Noth. He's chief executive officer of the small cap 0:53:42.880 --> 0:53:46.600 five hundred and fifteen million dollar market cap company Compass Pathways. 0:53:47.120 --> 0:53:50.880 Kaber joined us alongside Alexis Christopherus, who was filling in 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:51.319 for Tip. 0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:53.759 So we're excited about the fact that we're now in 0:53:53.800 --> 0:53:57.800 a position to potentially accelerate getting this medicine to patients 0:53:57.840 --> 0:54:00.640 who so urgently needed. Let me remind that there are 0:54:00.719 --> 0:54:04.280 three million patients living with persistent depression in the US. 0:54:05.000 --> 0:54:07.600 Fewer than five percent of them today are treated with 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:11.640 a medicine that was actually specifically studied for or is 0:54:11.680 --> 0:54:15.160 approved for treatment resistant depression. And this is depression that 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:19.880 is chronic, it's refactory. Often people are unable to work. 0:54:20.200 --> 0:54:23.480 It has dramatic direct healthcare costs in terms of costs 0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:28.680 of emergency room admissions in psychiatric care, but it also 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.840 has real social costs for these people. So what's changed 0:54:31.920 --> 0:54:35.520 is we've had a really excellent conversation with the FDA 0:54:36.040 --> 0:54:39.120 about their desire to see subject to us to continuing 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:42.440 to produce really strong results in terms of efficacy and safety. 0:54:42.800 --> 0:54:46.279 Their desire to see this moved more quickly. We've completed 0:54:46.400 --> 0:54:49.640 the enrollment in our second final stage study, which we 0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:51.840 did ahead of expectations, which is really down. 0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:52.760 To the great Phase three. 0:54:52.920 --> 0:54:55.120 This is a Phase three. This is the second of 0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:58.080 our final stage studies. We've completed the enrollment of that. 0:54:58.520 --> 0:55:01.400 We expect to have the the primary data from that 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:04.200 in first quarter of next year. That will give us 0:55:04.480 --> 0:55:07.319 the second of our final stage studies. And with that 0:55:07.360 --> 0:55:09.359 we are actually excited to be able to submit that 0:55:09.560 --> 0:55:11.760 to the agency and look to an accelerated approval. 0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:14.080 Wow, that sounds like a really big move. 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:16.799 I'm curious just remind us and we were talking with 0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:20.560 our healthcare team, how you guys designed the trials or 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:22.759 research program to avoid some of the pitfalls that we've 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:25.760 seen with I think about the ecstasy and the mm 0:55:26.400 --> 0:55:30.560 MDMA drug application that was for PTSD. How did you 0:55:30.600 --> 0:55:32.960 guys avoid some of those pitfalls. 0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:37.040 So first we had the opportunity to learn from some 0:55:37.120 --> 0:55:40.160 of the lessons. We've been in an excellent dialogue with 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:42.359 the FDA now for some six or seven years since 0:55:42.360 --> 0:55:45.239 we first started this time, since this process, Yeah, as 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:48.239 we know drug developing new medicines takes a long time 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:50.880 on a lot of commitment. Yeah, we've done this in 0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:53.920 a very robust and rigorous way. We are collecting full 0:55:54.160 --> 0:55:57.359 side effect data. We're collecting all the issues, not just 0:55:57.600 --> 0:56:01.239 your potential side effects such as headache and fatigue, which 0:56:01.239 --> 0:56:05.239 are transient, but also things like king and so on, 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:07.520 to make sure that there is really no abuse potential 0:56:07.520 --> 0:56:09.239 for this, and we've been collecting that right from this. 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:11.040 Is there any abusive potential for this? 0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:13.680 There is no history in psilocybin of people actually seeking 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:16.680 it out or of any abuse potential with psilocybin, which 0:56:16.719 --> 0:56:17.680 is an important point. 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:20.319 I'm putting my investor hat on for a moment, and 0:56:20.360 --> 0:56:22.839 I need to ask you about intellectual property and how 0:56:22.880 --> 0:56:26.120 you handle something like that, because psychedelic compounds don't sort 0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:29.919 of fit comfortably into that compound if you will, because 0:56:29.960 --> 0:56:31.920 a lot of them are natural, they can't really be 0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:34.359 patented if you will. So how do you deal with that? 0:56:34.600 --> 0:56:38.000 And to what extent is your medicine? You know, hold 0:56:38.040 --> 0:56:39.800 patents or have intellectual property. 0:56:39.960 --> 0:56:43.600 So our medicine comp. Three sixty is a fully synthetic 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:48.640 formulation of psilocybin. Okay, we have polyfomorph patents that address that, 0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:51.839 and therefore we have robust protection till twenty thirty eight, 0:56:51.880 --> 0:56:54.840 with the potential for extension around that because again we 0:56:54.920 --> 0:56:57.600 went for a fully synthetic modern medicine. 0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:02.200 Have you talked to direct with the Health and Human 0:57:02.200 --> 0:57:05.480 sec Secretary Robert F. 0:57:05.560 --> 0:57:05.920 Kennedy. 0:57:06.280 --> 0:57:09.279 We are focused on an excellent relationship with the psychiatry 0:57:09.320 --> 0:57:11.520 division of the FDA. Okay, we've been working with the 0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:12.680 same folks for seven years. 0:57:12.920 --> 0:57:15.440 We have certainly made some commentary around this that has 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:18.560 given you hopes and expectations that this would move along 0:57:19.040 --> 0:57:19.720 more rapidly. 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:22.800 We're happy that there are senior figures in the administration 0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:26.280 who believe like us in the potential for psychedelic therapy. 0:57:26.760 --> 0:57:30.080 But we're really focused on delivering the right efficacy and 0:57:30.120 --> 0:57:33.160 safety through our studies and working directly with the division 0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:34.120 that's going to approve US. 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:38.400 SO Trial three third phase next year. Early next year, 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:41.040 give us an idea of a timeline. I mean, when 0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:43.200 might we see something like this come to market. 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:46.520 We will get the primary data, as I said, in 0:57:46.600 --> 0:57:49.240 first quarter of next year. We will need to submit 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:51.760 some more data later in the year, but we are 0:57:51.800 --> 0:57:54.560 looking forward to being in a position to complete a 0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:57.560 submission to the FDA in the latter part of next year, 0:57:57.840 --> 0:58:00.000 and then we'll work with them as expeditionally as possible 0:58:00.160 --> 0:58:01.720 on a potential regulatory approval. 0:58:01.920 --> 0:58:05.480 SO twenty twenty six, twenty twenty seven, Like, what's I know, 0:58:05.560 --> 0:58:07.400 this stuff all takes long, and I know we constantly 0:58:07.400 --> 0:58:10.040 am asking you, but I think because it's been so 0:58:10.200 --> 0:58:13.480 much out there for a while, a decade and then 0:58:13.520 --> 0:58:16.000 some right, I think we're all trying to do, certainly 0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:20.280 for an investing audience, understand when this actually hits the market. 0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:23.160 We are preparing to be ready for a commercial launch 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:24.840 from the end of twenty twenty six. 0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:27.160 Ah, you said it, well, thank you. 0:58:27.320 --> 0:58:30.280 What is something like this? What is something like this cost? 0:58:30.560 --> 0:58:31.320 That's the question. 0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:34.080 So it's premature to discuss the pricing for this in 0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:36.480 the moment. First, we actually still need to see some 0:58:36.520 --> 0:58:39.680 of the longer term results from our studies. In particular, 0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:41.680 we need to see over the course of the first 0:58:41.800 --> 0:58:44.720 six months, what the potential for a second dose is 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:48.640 and really therefore how many potential sessions that a patient 0:58:48.680 --> 0:58:50.160 may need to have in a given year. 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:53.160 That's a great question because you're talking sessions. So this 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:57.400 is not a drug that someone would continue to take 0:58:57.520 --> 0:59:00.000 or a lifelong sort of drug, if you will. 0:59:00.400 --> 0:59:03.240 Absolutely, and it's a really important point there. What we 0:59:03.400 --> 0:59:06.160 have shown in our studies so far is that a 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:10.440 single session can produce a dramatic response that lasts for 0:59:10.560 --> 0:59:15.520 six weeks. Today, either it's a daily oral or there 0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:18.160 is a product esketomy which you will need to take 0:59:18.240 --> 0:59:21.320 maybe thirty to fifty times a year. What we are 0:59:21.360 --> 0:59:24.200 showing is truly transformative. Therefore for these patients with this 0:59:24.400 --> 0:59:25.680 infrequent session. 0:59:25.720 --> 0:59:27.720 So we're talking with Kabir or notth He's chief executive 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:30.640 officer of Compass Pathways ticker is CMPs. He's here in 0:59:30.640 --> 0:59:35.240 our Bloomberg studio, Bloomberg headquarters, Kair. One of the things 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:39.200 I think about then, is if all goes as you anticipate, 0:59:39.240 --> 0:59:41.000 and you've talked about the market for like who this 0:59:41.120 --> 0:59:44.000 is for specifically, then do you move on to other 0:59:44.160 --> 0:59:51.440 uses and other treatments, whether it's PTSD, whether it's drug addiction, Like, 0:59:51.440 --> 0:59:53.960 I'm just curious how far you can go with this. 0:59:54.200 --> 0:59:57.920 Yes, thank you, Carol, And we are designing have in 0:59:57.920 --> 1:00:00.840 fact already designed and finalized the design of a study 1:00:01.040 --> 1:00:06.600 in PTSD. PTSD affects thirteen million people in America, and 1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:09.640 while there's this view that it's prevalent among veterans and 1:00:09.640 --> 1:00:12.800 so on, it absolutely is that's actually only around fifteen 1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:13.400 percent of that. 1:00:13.360 --> 1:00:16.080 Population, only fifteen percent fifteen. 1:00:15.720 --> 1:00:19.440 Percent, actually sixty percent of people suffering with PTSD are women, 1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:23.000 and so this is a very large population. The only 1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:27.240 two drugs medicines approved for PTSD were approved in the 1:00:27.320 --> 1:00:31.720 last century, so this is something new, something different, and 1:00:31.760 --> 1:00:34.400 so we are very excited about that we have designed 1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:36.520 a study and that we will be kicking that off 1:00:36.600 --> 1:00:37.080 next year. 1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:39.320 I want to go back to the question of price. 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:42.320 So what about insurance and how does that play a 1:00:42.360 --> 1:00:43.040 part in all of this? 1:00:44.640 --> 1:00:47.480 From the get go, Compass were set up in order 1:00:47.480 --> 1:00:50.080 to ensure broad and equitable access for patients, and that 1:00:50.200 --> 1:00:54.120 means the ability to work with insurers, both commercial and government. 1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:57.760 With the data, we've already shown, as I say, a 1:00:57.800 --> 1:01:04.320 single administration producing statistic significant result reductions in depressive symptoms 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:08.160 after six weeks, we've already started to demonstrate the value 1:01:08.240 --> 1:01:08.640 that this. 1:01:08.560 --> 1:01:09.880 Can bring to the healthcare system. 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:13.000 Patients living with persistent depression frequently end up in the 1:01:13.040 --> 1:01:17.360 emergency room. They sometimes have in patient's psychiatric care. There 1:01:17.400 --> 1:01:20.440 are direct costs to healthcare systems, and we have already 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:22.120 started to demonstrate the value. 1:01:22.200 --> 1:01:23.720 You know, and forgive us Kamiir. 1:01:23.760 --> 1:01:25.080 We do keep going back to I know you can't 1:01:25.120 --> 1:01:27.440 talk about price or your guys are figuring that out. 1:01:27.480 --> 1:01:30.160 But we kicked off saying, according to our Bloomberg intelligence 1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:34.960 team that this market psychedelic drug development could go to 1:01:35.080 --> 1:01:39.080 seven billion dollars in sales by twenty thirty two. How 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:41.400 much of that do you think is or how much 1:01:41.400 --> 1:01:43.880 of that market size do you think you could get? 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:46.440 And I'm just trying to I'm curious. 1:01:46.880 --> 1:01:50.160 So we have the potential to be ahead of other 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:53.840 companies in this market by two to three years, and 1:01:54.320 --> 1:01:57.480 we're excited about the opportunity to treat lots of patients. 1:01:57.520 --> 1:01:59.960 So for us, this is about the ability to make 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:03.320 inroads into those three million patients that need a new 1:02:03.320 --> 1:02:07.240 treatment option. The only medicine that's actually approved and is 1:02:07.280 --> 1:02:11.880 being really promoted for this population today is treating maybe 1:02:12.080 --> 1:02:14.760 seventy to one hundred thousand patients, so that population of 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:17.920 three million, So what we're excited about is the ability 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:19.920 to bring this new medicine to those patients. 1:02:20.000 --> 1:02:23.920 Is it a billion dollar DOUG drug? Would you anticipate We. 1:02:23.920 --> 1:02:28.600 Would hope that if we can successfully treating. 1:02:29.760 --> 1:02:30.720 A large number of. 1:02:30.680 --> 1:02:34.320 Patients, especially if you get and you expand out, do 1:02:34.320 --> 1:02:35.480 you go for other uses? 1:02:35.760 --> 1:02:36.840 Yeah? Do you go alone? 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:37.640 That's our intention. 1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:39.840 We've always said clearly that we believe that we can 1:02:39.880 --> 1:02:41.480 do this on our own in the US market, and 1:02:41.520 --> 1:02:42.440 that's our intention. 1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:44.640 All right, What about side effects? I mean, folks are 1:02:44.680 --> 1:02:47.200 listening to this, A lot of folks are hoping that 1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:49.560 this is all going to work and come to market 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:51.360 sooner rather than later. What are some of the side 1:02:51.360 --> 1:02:52.120 effects though. 1:02:52.320 --> 1:02:56.600 So on the day of dosing, there's some headache, some nausea, 1:02:56.920 --> 1:02:59.120 and that passes by the second day at most, because 1:02:59.160 --> 1:03:02.600 this is a day in a treatment center. We have 1:03:02.640 --> 1:03:06.800 a fully independent group of scientists and clinicians that reviews 1:03:06.920 --> 1:03:09.360 all our safety data on a regular basis. They have 1:03:09.520 --> 1:03:12.920 access to data from all arms of our studies and 1:03:12.960 --> 1:03:16.440 they have seen no unexpected or concerning side effects. 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:18.480 That have caused them to alter the course. 1:03:18.240 --> 1:03:19.200 Of the study in any way. 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:21.200 And just remind everybody, and we just got about forty 1:03:21.200 --> 1:03:24.640 seconds co here. Right when it is given to a patient, 1:03:25.160 --> 1:03:28.600 there are folks around to really watch the process, make 1:03:28.640 --> 1:03:29.480 sure things go. 1:03:29.680 --> 1:03:31.720 You're not taking this into the bathroom by yourself. 1:03:32.600 --> 1:03:35.760 This is very much delivered in a safe environment, in 1:03:35.800 --> 1:03:38.400 a medical environment, with somebody in the room who is 1:03:38.440 --> 1:03:41.840 medically trained, who's there just to assure patient safety and comfort. 1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:43.720 Do you see the finish line. 1:03:44.120 --> 1:03:46.840 I absolutely do. And we're excited about that potential. 1:03:47.000 --> 1:03:48.640 I just think how long we've been reporting on it 1:03:48.680 --> 1:03:50.400 and talking about it. It's really fun to kind of 1:03:50.440 --> 1:03:51.440 be on this journey. 1:03:51.600 --> 1:03:52.280 I'm just with you. 1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:55.600 I'm just wondering quickly regulatory hurdles in twenty twenty six. 1:03:55.640 --> 1:03:57.080 Do you think that it is going to be a 1:03:57.160 --> 1:04:00.840 more friendly regulatory environment with the Chiatry division. 1:04:00.840 --> 1:04:04.840 We have an excellent relationship and that's been consistent of 1:04:04.880 --> 1:04:06.920 a six seven years, and we expected that to come. 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:08.520 Yeah, it sounds like you've been talking to them for 1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:11.120 a long long time. Kabir, Thank you, Nice to have 1:04:11.120 --> 1:04:13.720 you in studio. Kabir not his chief executive officer of 1:04:13.720 --> 1:04:15.600 Compass Pathways joining us right here. 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:24.479 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live 1:04:24.560 --> 1:04:28.160 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:30.960 Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also 1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:34.200 listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York 1:04:34.240 --> 1:04:37.400 station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:04:38.040 --> 1:04:40.920 Over the next couple of decades, an estimated ninety trillion 1:04:40.960 --> 1:04:43.360 dollars in assets will be passed down from the Silent 1:04:43.440 --> 1:04:46.800 generation and Baby Boomers to their Gen X and millennial airs. 1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:50.640 But this so called great wealth transfer has a confounding corollary. 1:04:51.040 --> 1:04:54.960 Our parents haven't just been accumulating money, They've also been 1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:59.640 accumulating stuff, so much stuff, so writes Bloomberg Pursuits Editor 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:01.120 at Large Chris Rouser. 1:05:01.000 --> 1:05:03.440 With us on tips on what to keep, sell and donate, 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:05.960 and just the concept in general, the history of it, 1:05:06.040 --> 1:05:10.560 why as Americans and when we started collecting so much stuff? 1:05:11.000 --> 1:05:14.240 Is Chris Rouser. Chris's story is The Pursuit's cover story 1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:17.360 of the December issue of BusinessWeek magazine. It's available now online, 1:05:17.400 --> 1:05:20.560 on the terminal and on newsstands. I kind of want 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:24.120 to start with PEZ dispensers, because that's how you start 1:05:24.200 --> 1:05:26.240 the piece. But this was a great piece, Chris. It's 1:05:26.280 --> 1:05:30.080 not just for people who have elderly people in their 1:05:30.120 --> 1:05:32.480 lives with a lot of stuff. It's also if you 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:34.480 have a lot of stuff in your life, you can 1:05:34.520 --> 1:05:37.520 take a lot away because there's a lot tied up 1:05:38.040 --> 1:05:46.800 in physical things, memories, just feelings holding on to things, history, fear. Yeah, 1:05:47.440 --> 1:05:48.440 it's really complicated. 1:05:48.520 --> 1:05:52.040 It's very complicated. So starting with Pez, which is a great. 1:05:51.920 --> 1:05:53.360 Which is a great place to start. 1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:57.320 Nick Malice is a comedy writer in la who I 1:05:57.520 --> 1:06:00.920 encountered while reporting for this story, and his had these 1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:03.400 two great, big lofts and soho in New York. Sounds 1:06:03.480 --> 1:06:08.160 very glam but they were filled with stuff and it 1:06:08.200 --> 1:06:11.160 was a range of stuff that was like a little junkie, 1:06:11.200 --> 1:06:14.720 Like she would pick up shelves from the street and 1:06:14.760 --> 1:06:17.040 bring him into her apartment and then fill them with stuff. 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:19.520 But a lot of that stuff was really good, Like 1:06:19.600 --> 1:06:21.760 she was an avid collector. She had like partied with 1:06:21.800 --> 1:06:24.880 Andy Warhol. She had some really good pop art. And 1:06:25.200 --> 1:06:28.680 Nick had to go through these two apartments that were 1:06:28.760 --> 1:06:31.160 jammed to the ceilings, and it took him years, and 1:06:31.240 --> 1:06:34.360 he found, throughout all of his exploration and dealing with it, 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:39.280 ten thousand pez dispensers. Oh my god, you think that, 1:06:39.360 --> 1:06:41.960 like your parents have a lot of stuff. His mom 1:06:42.280 --> 1:06:45.200 had a ton of stuff, and it was very difficult 1:06:45.200 --> 1:06:47.800 to deal with. As I said, it took years, but 1:06:48.160 --> 1:06:50.800 throughout the process and he found that it actually brought 1:06:50.920 --> 1:06:53.920 him closer to her, going through all of her stuff 1:06:53.960 --> 1:06:56.080 and taking the time and learning about what she cared 1:06:56.080 --> 1:06:57.880 about and all the cool stuff that she left to 1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:00.560 him as his inheritance. So I went into this story thinking, 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:02.680 all right, well, this is a problem that like we're 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:07.000 all annoyed about, like both our parents' generations, my generationserations below. 1:07:07.560 --> 1:07:09.280 But also there's like there can be some upsides and 1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:10.600 there can be some beauty to it. So let's go 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:11.720 in with a positive attitude. 1:07:11.720 --> 1:07:13.560 Well, I love what he said that in going through it. 1:07:13.600 --> 1:07:16.600 I'm sure he was incredibly overwhelmed at the beginning, right, 1:07:16.840 --> 1:07:19.160 but then understanding like as he went through them, like 1:07:19.320 --> 1:07:21.480 he got a better feeling about his mom, yeah, and 1:07:21.520 --> 1:07:22.200 who she was. 1:07:22.800 --> 1:07:24.800 And the key thing that Nick did, which everyone should 1:07:24.880 --> 1:07:28.400 consider doing, is he got help. He got his friends 1:07:28.440 --> 1:07:30.280 to come in and help. He paid people to come 1:07:30.320 --> 1:07:33.760 in and sort the best dispensers. He got someone from 1:07:33.760 --> 1:07:36.160 Antique's road show to look at that really good stuff. 1:07:37.040 --> 1:07:39.120 There's different tiers of help. But you can get an 1:07:39.200 --> 1:07:40.920 organizer to come in and do everything. You can get 1:07:40.920 --> 1:07:42.800 a junk company to come and get rid of everything, 1:07:42.840 --> 1:07:44.440 or you can go through stuff if you really want 1:07:44.480 --> 1:07:47.040 to and sort of set it up into different categories 1:07:47.120 --> 1:07:48.480 like valuable, not valuable, whatever. 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:51.000 But a key thing is is help. 1:07:51.280 --> 1:07:53.400 I have to say, like both my parents have passed away, 1:07:53.400 --> 1:07:55.360 and I remember my mom was quite the collector. And 1:07:55.440 --> 1:07:58.720 it was Humbles, it was Gompere, it was Deal, it 1:07:58.760 --> 1:08:02.640 was a lot of stuff. Humbless are classic, and I 1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:05.280 just remember going through stuff and there was a point 1:08:05.280 --> 1:08:07.000 where we got so tired of going through stuff, like 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:08.480 we were just putting stuff out on the curb, and 1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:10.760 in the process we threw out a clock that was 1:08:10.800 --> 1:08:14.520 actually pretty valuable, but we just were just so overwhelmed. 1:08:14.600 --> 1:08:17.280 So how do we kind of go, like, talk to 1:08:17.320 --> 1:08:18.800 us a little bit about the experts that are out 1:08:18.800 --> 1:08:20.639 there that help us with this process to figure out 1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:22.840 what's valuable, what do you keep, what do you pass on, 1:08:22.960 --> 1:08:23.679 what do you throw out? 1:08:23.880 --> 1:08:26.400 Yes, so there is a whole cottage industry that's set 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:28.640 up to deal with exactly with this. Some people call 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:32.519 it generational decluttering, which is not only when people are 1:08:32.520 --> 1:08:34.639 passing stuff down to the next generation, but maybe they're 1:08:34.680 --> 1:08:37.759 just downsizing because they retired, they don't need so much space, 1:08:37.760 --> 1:08:39.360 and they don't know what to do. So you can 1:08:39.360 --> 1:08:42.719 get an organizer who will really help you go through everything. 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:46.920 They'll give you organizational tools, which we all need. They'll 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:49.200 help you digitize photos. They have all these tools that 1:08:49.240 --> 1:08:51.360 like you don't even think about that will shrink the 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:54.040 stuff that's in your house and they'll get this stuff 1:08:54.080 --> 1:08:56.280 out of your house. And these are people who are 1:08:56.280 --> 1:08:59.160 practiced at it. They're emotionally sensitive. I talked to some 1:08:59.200 --> 1:09:02.800 really cool people who have are really thoughtful, and it's 1:09:02.800 --> 1:09:05.240 hard to get stuff out of the house. You know people, 1:09:05.840 --> 1:09:08.760 you know, our parents, their parents were depression era, so 1:09:08.880 --> 1:09:10.760 they wanted to hold on to stuff. They want to 1:09:10.800 --> 1:09:12.520 hold onto paper records. 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:14.439 Going to dacist because I think I think about, like 1:09:14.479 --> 1:09:16.600 why the heck do I I've actually talked about this 1:09:16.640 --> 1:09:18.160 with my therapists, like why do I have to hold 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:20.200 on to so much stuff? Yeah, like even after my 1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:22.599 parents are passed, like it's like these aren't them anymore, 1:09:22.880 --> 1:09:25.080 but it's like silly things like even seeing their handwriting, 1:09:25.160 --> 1:09:28.120 Like why, But what is it about that we got 1:09:28.120 --> 1:09:28.599 to this point. 1:09:28.760 --> 1:09:30.840 It's a lot of things. So, like I said, our 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:32.280 parents grew up with depressionary. 1:09:32.280 --> 1:09:32.639 Our parents. 1:09:32.640 --> 1:09:35.800 If you're like an aging millennial gen X, you grew 1:09:35.880 --> 1:09:39.280 up in a house where like people saved stuff against 1:09:39.360 --> 1:09:42.840 maybe future emergencies, like maybe your parents had nine flashlights 1:09:42.840 --> 1:09:44.320 in a drawer because like, you never know when you're 1:09:44.320 --> 1:09:48.599 gonna need it. Anyone younger than us, younger than thirty five, 1:09:48.760 --> 1:09:50.840 grew up with Amazon, so they are you know, and 1:09:50.840 --> 1:09:52.960 they grew up with the Internet, so they are everything 1:09:53.000 --> 1:09:56.240 is immediately available. Things are not as high quality as 1:09:56.240 --> 1:09:59.200 they were, like products, home products, especially as they used 1:09:59.200 --> 1:10:02.879 to be or as beautiful from like the early twentieth century, 1:10:03.120 --> 1:10:05.360 so they don't have that association of this is nice, 1:10:05.400 --> 1:10:07.920 we should keep it, whereas our parents and even us, like, 1:10:08.040 --> 1:10:09.680 it's hard for me to get rid of books. 1:10:09.960 --> 1:10:11.439 I feel like books should have a future. 1:10:11.600 --> 1:10:12.840 Yeah, have you seen my desk. 1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:13.920 I can't get rid of books. 1:10:13.960 --> 1:10:16.439 Oh, I've changed my thoughts completely on books. 1:10:16.479 --> 1:10:17.040 I know you have. 1:10:17.280 --> 1:10:19.320 You got to get rid of books. Everything's on my kindle. 1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:20.840 It just we live in New York City. There's not 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:23.080 enough room for books. Do it all on your kindle 1:10:23.520 --> 1:10:25.320 and be done with it. Yeah, I mean I know 1:10:26.160 --> 1:10:27.120 it closed too. 1:10:27.960 --> 1:10:29.599 Can I just say though I thought it was interesting. 1:10:29.640 --> 1:10:31.840 I just was say, like the china collection and then 1:10:31.880 --> 1:10:35.360 the china cupboards. I remember my grandmother like a massive 1:10:35.439 --> 1:10:37.800 and then my mom had them, and it's like I 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:40.360 have little ones. But it's it's like getting away from 1:10:40.400 --> 1:10:42.599 that that that you had these things then you displayed them. 1:10:42.760 --> 1:10:44.880 Yes, and that is that's a thing. When the middle 1:10:44.880 --> 1:10:47.840 class in America was born, and like starting in the 1:10:48.439 --> 1:10:51.160 mid nineteenth century, that when we started having factories and 1:10:51.200 --> 1:10:53.120 middle managers and all these people going in through the 1:10:53.160 --> 1:10:57.000 beginning of the twentieth century, That's when Tiffany started making silver. 1:10:57.400 --> 1:10:59.800 That's when people could afford it was either before that 1:10:59.840 --> 1:11:02.559 it was either like extremely rich people or working class. Right, 1:11:02.600 --> 1:11:05.200 and then there were oh, mass produced things could be 1:11:05.200 --> 1:11:07.439 actually beautiful and we could own a lot of them, 1:11:07.479 --> 1:11:09.960 and we should display them to show like where we 1:11:10.080 --> 1:11:13.920 have reached as a family. And then that created this 1:11:14.000 --> 1:11:15.920 like snowball of like we should show our China, we 1:11:15.920 --> 1:11:19.080 should have fine silver that we don't use, that goss 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:20.000 us where we are today. 1:11:20.120 --> 1:11:22.519 I love the dive into the industrial revolution in this 1:11:22.600 --> 1:11:25.400 piece and really what brought the American middle class on 1:11:25.520 --> 1:11:28.920 our obsession or fascination with stuff. What I also love 1:11:28.960 --> 1:11:31.639 about the piece, Chris, is it required some self reflection 1:11:31.720 --> 1:11:35.479 from you and also some anecdotes from you about this 1:11:35.640 --> 1:11:38.840 happening while you were essentially thinking about this piece. Talk 1:11:38.880 --> 1:11:40.479 to us about your dad's gun collection. 1:11:40.680 --> 1:11:42.640 So my dad's gun collection was the reason why I 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:45.479 thought of this piece. Actually, my dad has something like 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:48.800 seventy guns he'd been collecting since he was a kid. 1:11:48.920 --> 1:11:50.600 So some of them are historical, some of them had 1:11:50.600 --> 1:11:54.040 a lot of emotional resonance, and he has a room 1:11:54.080 --> 1:11:56.760 in his house that we call the Second Amendment rooms 1:11:56.800 --> 1:11:58.880 full of guns, and my brother and I live in 1:11:58.880 --> 1:12:01.360 the city, in New York City, we don't want a 1:12:01.400 --> 1:12:02.360 lot of guns around. 1:12:02.439 --> 1:12:04.360 Well guns are not there as certain guns. It's very 1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:06.280 hard to legally have a gun in New York City. 1:12:06.400 --> 1:12:08.280 Yeah, and also a lot of them are hunting rifles 1:12:08.320 --> 1:12:12.839 and I don't hunt a lot. So my dad decided, 1:12:12.880 --> 1:12:14.639 he was like, you know what, I don't. I'm mostly 1:12:14.680 --> 1:12:16.680 just cleaning these, like I don't really use a lot 1:12:16.720 --> 1:12:18.760 of them that much, and it's time for me to 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:20.080 get rid of them so my kids don't have. 1:12:20.040 --> 1:12:21.040 To deal with it. 1:12:21.680 --> 1:12:24.560 So he I was so proud of him. He photographed 1:12:24.600 --> 1:12:26.400 all of them. He made like a PDF. He put 1:12:26.400 --> 1:12:29.519 out an RFP to dealers to be like, who will 1:12:29.560 --> 1:12:31.599 give us me the best offer on this? All throughout 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:33.920 New England. He lives in Maine, and then a guy 1:12:34.080 --> 1:12:36.599 at the Kittery Trading Post in southern Maine was like, 1:12:36.720 --> 1:12:38.719 this is my offer, and my dad said, that's great, 1:12:38.920 --> 1:12:41.800 And he asked my brother and my step siblings which 1:12:41.800 --> 1:12:44.200 guns we wanted, and then he just sold all the 1:12:44.200 --> 1:12:46.160 rest of them the guy at the Kittery Trading Post 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:47.920 and I was like, this is amazing. I love this 1:12:48.000 --> 1:12:49.840 and so I told my mom and she was like, wow, 1:12:49.960 --> 1:12:52.960 that's awesome. What about all the wooden mallards. 1:12:55.080 --> 1:12:58.880 What's the market collected? Yeah, my dad, what's the market? 1:12:58.920 --> 1:12:59.960 What's the market for wooden mouth? 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:00.840 So there is a. 1:13:00.800 --> 1:13:03.519 Market for wooden mallards, and there are markets for all 1:13:03.560 --> 1:13:05.200 these things. You think no one wants to silver, and 1:13:05.200 --> 1:13:06.760 you think no one wants china, and that's like in 1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:08.840 brown furniture, and that's sort of true. But like the 1:13:09.479 --> 1:13:12.000 elite stuff, the best stuff, actually there is still a 1:13:12.040 --> 1:13:13.960 market for it. So like you can, you can go 1:13:14.000 --> 1:13:16.439 through and find the people that want the wooden mallards. 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:19.120 And I thought, okay, this is something I gotta do 1:13:19.120 --> 1:13:19.479 a story. 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:21.200 Oh my god, I just I love it. 1:13:21.240 --> 1:13:21.560 I love it. 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:23.840 I think it resonates for so many of us. 1:13:23.960 --> 1:13:25.719 Well, I'm just going to say, if you go through stuff, 1:13:25.760 --> 1:13:27.800 you might be able to pass it off as get 1:13:27.880 --> 1:13:29.360 gifts this holiday season. 1:13:29.640 --> 1:13:32.160 Yeah, or or if not. 1:13:32.360 --> 1:13:34.840 Actually, in our family we've sometimes done that, like passed down. 1:13:34.880 --> 1:13:36.679 Does anyone in your family have a watch collection. 1:13:37.840 --> 1:13:39.000 I have a little bit of a watch clo. 1:13:39.200 --> 1:13:41.759 Oh okay, well that's a perfect segue, So. 1:13:41.680 --> 1:13:44.200 Tell us about you actually give us a gift guide 1:13:44.200 --> 1:13:47.439 for every specific person in your life when it comes. 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:49.720 To watching, which is a great way to organize it 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:51.479 because it's not like, Okay, these are the best watches 1:13:51.520 --> 1:13:53.719 for under three hundred dollars, These are the best watches 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:55.640 for under a thousand, These are the best watches that 1:13:55.640 --> 1:13:57.559 are one hundred thousand dollars. This is the best watch 1:13:57.600 --> 1:13:59.640 for this person in your life. I love that. 1:13:59.760 --> 1:14:02.200 Yeah, thanks, Yeah, you know, normally I do the price 1:14:02.240 --> 1:14:03.840 point gift GUIDs. This year, I was like, I'm going 1:14:03.880 --> 1:14:07.759 to actually go through specific situations that people have already 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:09.720 come to me to ask for a gift or for 1:14:09.720 --> 1:14:13.200 a watch for themselves. My nephew recently asked he wants 1:14:13.560 --> 1:14:15.880 like a steel watch to take on job interviews because 1:14:15.880 --> 1:14:18.639 he's going to graduate college. So I recommended a Tiso, 1:14:18.800 --> 1:14:22.519 which is a very reasonably priced brand, really good Swiss watches. 1:14:23.640 --> 1:14:25.400 A lot of people ask me, they're like, I'm buying 1:14:25.439 --> 1:14:28.240 my first serious watch, and I send them to a 1:14:28.320 --> 1:14:30.160 multi brand store where they can look at a lot 1:14:30.200 --> 1:14:32.479 of different watches. They always come back either with a 1:14:32.560 --> 1:14:36.840 Rolex or an IWC, so I recommend some IWC's. One 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:38.880 of my friends has got a new finance job, and. 1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:39.880 He love this one. 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:42.360 Everyone in my office wears a different watch every day, 1:14:42.439 --> 1:14:44.160 of course, and I was like, I want to work 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:46.719 in that office, So. 1:14:46.760 --> 1:14:49.400 Do you not have a watch to where every day different? 1:14:50.400 --> 1:14:51.280 That's what I'm saying. 1:14:51.520 --> 1:14:55.200 I'm thinking you you're on it. The nonprofit lawyer, can 1:14:55.200 --> 1:14:57.759 I just say for a nonprofit lawyer? I was curious about, 1:14:57.760 --> 1:14:58.840 like what you were going to come up with. 1:14:58.920 --> 1:15:03.880 I was not expecting still a lawyer, still a lawyer. True, this, 1:15:04.000 --> 1:15:06.760 it's funny. We actually went through and Felix on my 1:15:06.800 --> 1:15:11.680 team asked chat GBT for the same recommendations, and chat 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:13.280 GPT came up. I think it must have scraped the 1:15:13.280 --> 1:15:15.479 story because although we don't let people scrape our stuff, 1:15:15.520 --> 1:15:17.160 but because it came up with a lot of the 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:19.960 same recommendations. And for the non profit lawyer one, it 1:15:20.000 --> 1:15:22.599 came up with the exact same brand, no most class shoota, 1:15:22.760 --> 1:15:25.920 which is very it's like pretty obscure. I was like, CHATCHBT, 1:15:26.040 --> 1:15:28.160 you've been listening, but this is my friend is an 1:15:28.160 --> 1:15:32.720 immigration lawyer in Chicago, an incredible, incredible person, and he 1:15:32.840 --> 1:15:35.040 was like, I want to grown up watch to like 1:15:35.400 --> 1:15:38.760 celebrate my milestones and my marriage but I can't be 1:15:38.840 --> 1:15:40.080 like a crazy rich person watch. 1:15:40.479 --> 1:15:43.360 And so I love this watch. Yeah, I love it, 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:46.880 really beautiful. But for all you guys out there, if 1:15:46.920 --> 1:15:49.479 you're looking to get something for the woman who wants 1:15:49.520 --> 1:15:50.520 an understated. 1:15:50.080 --> 1:15:52.559 Classic Cardia, that tank wise, it's always the tank. 1:15:52.720 --> 1:15:53.400 It's always the tank. 1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:54.720 All right? 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:55.240 Do we have to go? 1:15:55.360 --> 1:15:57.720 We have to go, Chris Rouser, never enough time. Thank 1:15:57.760 --> 1:15:59.960 you so much. Happy holidays, So glad we could do that. 1:16:00.800 --> 1:16:03.120 Listen, how did you describe the Cardia tank? 1:16:03.240 --> 1:16:03.400 Oh? 1:16:03.400 --> 1:16:05.960 I said, If you're buying a woman an expensive watch 1:16:05.960 --> 1:16:08.120 and you're not considering a Cardia, you're a lunatic. 1:16:09.000 --> 1:16:14.360 There we go. Amen, Amen, Chris Rouser, Bloomberg Pursuits Editor 1:16:14.439 --> 1:16:14.880 at Large. 1:16:14.920 --> 1:16:16.840 And that wraps up our weekend edition, a Bloomberg Business 1:16:16.840 --> 1:16:19.080 freek from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us. 1:16:19.280 --> 1:16:21.639 I'm Tim Steinbeck and I'm Carol Masser. Have a good 1:16:21.640 --> 1:16:24.600 and safe weekend. Maybe clean out some stuff, just recommending. 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:31.000 This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, 1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:34.839 and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday 1:16:34.880 --> 1:16:38.879 afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com. 1:16:38.920 --> 1:16:42.840 The iHeartRadio app tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. 1:16:43.080 --> 1:16:45.879 You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube 1:16:46.040 --> 1:16:48.200 and always on the Bloomberg terminal