WEBVTT - Trump Sends Mixed Signals on Iran War 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:10.160 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Welcome to the Bloomberg 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:15.920 This Weekend Podcast with David Gura, Christina Raffini, and Lisa Matteo. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.560 Thanks for joining us for today's selection of conversations from 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:20.959 the show. 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:23.479 You can listen to our favorite discussions right here on 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:25.800 the podcast, but also make sure to join us live 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.960 every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at seven am Easter. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.760 We're on Bloomberg Television, Radio and the Bloomberg Business App, 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.600 bringing you unique takes and in depth interviews on news, politics, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:39.120 lifestyle and culture. 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.599 On Friday, we had this pronouncement from the President on 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.040 social media saying he was going in and would be 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.919 making this decision. He went into the meeting, came out 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.320 of the meeting, and there still was not an agreement. 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.320 So Axios is reporting today that the President during that 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.600 meeting asked for several amendments to the deal negotiated between 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:00.000 his envoy and the Iranians. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.480 In particular, he wants to strengthen the sections around around's 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.280 nuclear material, including details on how the US gets that 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.200 material and when. Here's what he told his daughter in 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:11.480 law Laura Trump on Fox News last night. This is 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:12.080 really a win. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.880 Already, we've defeated the military, essentially defeated their military. I 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.400 would rather get a deal because we can open the 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:24.440 strait immediately upon signing. The one guarantee that I have 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:26.480 to have is that there will be no nuclear weapons. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.720 They've agreed to that, and it was very interesting. They 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.080 originally said we will not develop a nuclear weapon. I said, well, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.280 what happens if you buy a nuclear weapon? So now 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.679 it says we will not develop or in any way 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.920 purchase a military weapon. That's a big difference. So we're 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.039 getting what we want slowly, very tough negotiators. It takes 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:47.800 a long time. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:49.560 I'm in no hurry. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:51.560 I'd like to say I'm in a hurry because you 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.160 know what, ghasoline prices are going to come dumbly down. 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:55.800 But if you're going to be in a hurry, you're 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:56.720 not going to make a good deal. 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.280 We're getting what we want. According to the President of 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:01.320 the United States, is now as ambassor John Bolton. He 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.120 served as the former US Ambassador of the UN and 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.880 also as National Security advisor to President Trump during the 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:07.720 first term. Mister ambassador, great to have you with us 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:09.480 once again. Let me start with that line that I 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.840 repeated there coming out of that quotation from the President. 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.880 We are getting what we want at this juncture as 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.639 we live through this weekend after weekend, the President indicating 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.120 he's close to a deal, and then silence or no 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.240 codified deal at the end of a weekend. Do you 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.560 feel like the US is getting what it wants out 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.000 of these negotiations they're taking place between the US and 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.240 Iran via the pakistanis. 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.320 Well, I think Trump is getting what he wants. This 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.000 is a deal about gasoline prices at the pump in 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:42.799 the United States. Trump worries obviously about the price levels 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.280 people are paying. He's worried about the effect on inflation. 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.960 He's worried about the effect on the elections in November. 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.480 But this is not a deal that really ends the 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.440 war in a satisfactory way for the United States. There's 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.400 no doubt about it. If the Iranian regime is allowed 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.000 to survive, which it looks like Trump is prepared to acknowledge, 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.919 they will simply benefit from the reopening of the strait 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.560 to sell more oil, gain more revenue, and entrench themselves 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.160 in power, giving them time rebuild their nuclear program, rebuild 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.560 their military, rebuild their terrorist proxies an x period of 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.560 time will be right back where we started from. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.560 Given that, do you think the US was in a 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.480 safer bet with Iran in the JCPOA than they will 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.240 be after this is worked out? 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:29.840 Not at all. 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.160 The twenty fifteen obomba in nuclear deal was a failure 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.160 on many levels. It didn't at all deal with Iran's 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:39.720 plutonium route to nuclear weapons in the form of the 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:44.400 spent fuel at the nuclear reactor at Bouscher, just completely 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.960 left that unattended, and the estimates of the amount of 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.480 spent fuel there that Iran has by nuclear proliferation experts 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.440 say they could make between two hundred and four hundred 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.480 nuclear weapons just from the plutonium route to bombs, not 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.200 the Range and Richmond route. It's a complicated issue, but 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:08.040 the fact is that the JCPOA was allsory and Iran's 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.800 strategic determination to get nuclear weapons has never changed. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.800 But all those technical issues that you just points it out, 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.280 are you confident that given this negotiating team we were 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:19.160 just talking with our Jeff Mason, our White House correspondent, 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.120 was saying, the negotiating team is essentially Jared Kushner and 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.800 Steve Whitcoff they don't have a lot of technical experts. 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.120 Do you have any level of confidence that any of 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.200 those issues with the previous deal are going to be 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.080 fixed this time around, given how they are doing this diplomacy. 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.159 Well, none, whatever. Look, the Iranians are clearly trying to 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:39.560 buy time. I mean, they like to sell oil, but 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:44.680 this is a contest really of perseverance and determination. They 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.680 think Trump is closer to buckling than they are. They 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:49.880 don't care about the welfare of their people, they care 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.159 about preserving the regime. And so we're going through this 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.719 ropidope of these talks about talks. The Economists this week 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.440 has a great cartoon. It's a bunch of iatolas speaking 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:04.400 to two of the Pakistani mediators, and one Pakistani mediator 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:07.400 says to the other one tell the Americans they are 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.400 offering a framework for negotiation of the establishment of a proposal, 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.520 exploring preliminary talks about the tentative prospect of conversations, and 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:21.400 the other mediator says, a great plan of action. That's 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:22.360 what we're going through. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:22.640 Now. 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:25.160 We're going to have you read New Yorker cartoons the 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:31.120 next time you're on the show. I think that Ambassadbulm 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.000 what is your prescription for what needs to happen next 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.600 we hear the President continue to threaten that something will 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.640 happen if they can come to an agreement. Of course, 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.279 what's on the table, as we understand it is more 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.720 kinetic action, more military action. Are you of the camp 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.760 as one might expect that that's something the US should 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:46.960 be pursuing right now. Indeed, what do you see as 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:48.560 the path forward here? If all that we get out 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.480 of this is a one page document with fourteen points 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.160 on it, or an agreement that isn't satisfactory. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.640 Well, I think there are two broad options. One is 0:05:57.720 --> 0:05:59.720 just to junk the cease fire, which I think has 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.000 been a gift from God to the Iranian regime and 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.719 go back to full scale military activity. If Trump's not 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.080 willing to do that, I think the minimal that he 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.000 should do and that we can do is open the 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.440 Gulf Arab side of the Strait of Hormuz to get 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.440 their oil and gas out into international markets. Keep the 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:21.880 blockade we've got in effect against Iranian exports, but using 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.159 military force I think that will be necessary help ensure 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:30.359 that exports from the Arab oil producing countries can get out. 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.760 We know from reporting in various publications. I won't name that. 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.320 This week, the US has been helping carriers get out. 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.080 They've not been attacked. They're turning their transponders off, going 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.640 at night, kind of sneaking through. That's not a lot 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.080 of traffic, to be sure, but I think it shows 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.720 that the Iranian threat here may be more hollow than 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.920 people think. And to alleviate the pressure on the international economy, 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.080 I think it's worth using force to open the strait. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.960 I think it helps re establish the terns to prevent 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.880 ron from trying to turn the Straight on and off 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:04.359 like a light switch in the future. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:06.960 So that's interesting. So one of the criticisms of how 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.400 this is going is that there's a sequencing issue. People 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.119 are saying that the US shouldn't give up its hold 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:13.800 on the Straight, they should keep the Straight kind of 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.320 locked down, and so they can use that on the 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.720 nuclear leverage side. You don't see the sequencing issue as 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:21.400 a problem here with the way this is being negotiated. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:23.560 Youusally they should open the strait and then tackle the 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:24.400 nuclear issue. 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.960 Well, I think we should keep the blockade against Iran 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:33.840 and exports. So no, I don't I will understand apologies definitely, yeah, no, 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:38.240 But I will say whenever diplomats start talking about sequencing 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.239 as being the only problem, hold on to your wallet, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.920 because it means there's really a bigger problem they're trying 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:44.600 to obscure. 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:47.200 I want to ask you about what's happened here is 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.320 a weapon for Iran in the future. We've talked about 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.200 this over the course of the morning as well. We're 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.240 talking about the prospects of extending this kind of squishy 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.480 ceasefire that's been in place now for a few weeks 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.280 to sixty days. It occurs to me that it's not 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.560 going to prevent Ron from doing this again in the future. Indeed, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.040 as we look back on this conflict, I think what's 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.520 perhaps most valuable to Iran is putting this in practice 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.000 and seeing the habit that they can reak by closing 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.040 this straight to ships from all over the world, the 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.320 impact that that's had on the global economy. Do you 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.760 have any confidence here that them having done that this 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:19.480 will be a one and done thing, that Iron won't 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.040 return to this or try to do this again in 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.400 the future. And indeed, how does the US put in 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:25.280 place any sort of procedure that would keep that from 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:25.920 happening again. 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.960 Well, I think you bloody them badly militarily to show 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.280 they cannot close the strait of hormones cost free. Look, 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.920 anybody who reads a map can tell that the strait 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.640 was a potential problem here, So it is known in 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.920 Trump's first term. I think history will record that his 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.360 unwillingness or inability to see that and not to prepare 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.360 for it in advance, was one of the big mistakes 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.320 of the operation. We knew, for example, we had to 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.440 destroy as many of Iran's missiles as we could to 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.640 prevent them from attacking our bases, Israel, our golf ballies, 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.000 but we were late in the game and making sure 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.080 that they couldn't close the Straight of Hormuz. If they 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.760 get out of the current situation simply by diplomacy, I 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.160 think it will lock in in their minds that they 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:15.720 can close the straight again by diplomacy and not suffer 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.160 any real consequences. So I think re establishing de terms 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.680 here means defeating the concept that they can just, on 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.480 their say so, act as if they're master of the strait. 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.320 Just to put a fine point out, are you suggesting 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.840 to hear the commander in chief is cartographically challenged that 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.840 he didn't think this through or didn't really understand the 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.160 gravity of this when he entered into this conflict. 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:38.880 Look in the first term, I tried to persuade him 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:43.199 to adopt regime change as our objective in Iran, unsuccessfully obviously, 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.559 and we had discussions of it. Plenty of people participated. 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.600 Closing the Straight of Hormuz is always one option that 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.400 was available to Iran. I mean, we should consider that 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.320 for decades oil prices have had an implicit subsidy because 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.520 nobody did try and close the Straight of Hormoz. Now 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.400 that play has been made, nobody can ever be doubtful 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.400 that they would try and use it again in the future, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.920 unless they thought it was just too dangerous for them 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:09.960 to do it, which is all that this regime in 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.240 Tehran today understands that they'd be met by force and 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:14.160 they'd be defeated. 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.040 I want to ask you about that regime because at 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.080 the onset of this war, the president was saying that 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.079 it was time for Iranians to rise up and overthrow 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.520 the regime and courage that to do exactly use that 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.480 as one of the justifications for taking military action. I 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.720 have several Iranian friends, some with families still in Tehran. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.480 They've suffered under this regime. They hate this regime, but 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:38.480 they have also suffered under this conflict, and they do 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.280 not seem to have the capacity or at this point 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.280 the will, given what's going on, to even attempt such 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.000 a thing. Is the current regime more less the same 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.560 level of extreme as the last regime? And do you 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.320 think the president should have taken your advice and either 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.679 not done it or gone all the way through and 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.720 try to enact regime change in Iran. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:10:59.600 Yeah. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.439 Mistake that the administration made before the start of the wars. 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.559 They didn't contact opponents of the regime inside Iran, with 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:11.160 a few very minor exceptions. If Trump was determined not 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.640 to use boots on the ground, then you need all 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.559 the more to be coordinating with people inside who want 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.000 to try and bring the regime down. It doesn't mean 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.120 the people going out on the streets on the first 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.320 day of the war. This regime massacred them. In January, 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.840 they'd massacred them again. That tells you how the regime 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:33.040 feels about its own people. But given the destruction of 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.959 the instruments of Iranian state power that our attacks represented 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.560 by working with the opposition inside. I think we could 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.480 have gone a long way to bringing the regime down, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:45.839 but we didn't consult with them. We didn't say, how 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.719 can we help you organize? What resources do you need? 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.439 You need, communications, money, weapons, What do you need That 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.440 requires planning? It probably requires time. We just didn't do anything, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.800 and I think we're on the verge of throwing away 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.080 a great opportunity for more peace and security for us, 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.640 for the Middle East, and God knows, for the people 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:06.160 of Iran. 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:07.840 We got a minute left. I want to ask you 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:09.960 what confidence you have in those who advising the president 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:11.800 right now. I imagine you know some of the principles here. 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:14.360 B that's Steve Whitcoffort. You're at Kushtra, You've interacted with 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.199 them in the past. Are you confident that they have 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.240 the kind of strategic Nohower's sense to improve the situation 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:22.120 that exists right now? 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.680 I don't think they understand the kinds of trade offs 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.880 they're making. For example, one of the most controversial aspects 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.400 that's still very murky in this deal is whether the 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:38.959 United States is going to unfreeze frozen Iranate assets and 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.080 make available to them other resources. I think that would 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:47.360 be a huge mistake. It's one thing to providefrozen assets 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.320 to a real government in Iran that represents the people. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.480 If we provide this government frozen assets, it will entrench 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:58.560 itself still further. And I don't think real estate brokers 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.439 understand that that's what's at stake here. It's not about 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.080 economic development in Iran for that money, It's about re 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.880 entrenching and enabling the regime to stay in power. That 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.480 will be very bad politically for Trump if that's what 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:12.040 works out. 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.400 Always good to get your perspective of Master John Bolton, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.360 the former National Security advisor for President Trump during the 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.880 first term, former US Ambassador to the United Nations as well. 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.000 Thank you for your time on this Sunday. 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.439 And New Yorker cartoon Efficiacy. 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:23.520 I did enjoy that. 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:24.600 Thank you, sir. 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.000 Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend. Right 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:44.360 after this, Ethlan Lost joins us now from Bunia, the 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.880 capital of the Attree Province in the Democratic Republic of Congo, 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.440 which is the epicenter of the Cibola outbreak. It's great 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.199 to speak with you, Declan. Thank you very much for 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.960 being here. We see you in that video, you're wearing 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.840 a TAIVEK suit you have PPE. It's clear that those 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.440 visiting patients in that medical facility do not have taie 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.440 x suits or PPE. Can you just talk about the 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.079 capacity of this hospital to deal with what is still 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:07.760 a nascent outbreak in the DRC. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.319 That particular hospital was I would say, completely overwhelmed when 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.760 we arrived. It's just it's the main public hospital in 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.000 a town, a gold mining town called Mungualu that's about 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.120 fifty miles north of here. That's where this outbreak is 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.320 believed to have started and as long as two months ago, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:32.400 and when we arrived there, frankly, the public health facilities 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.800 appeared to be in crisis. As you see, there was 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:41.840 only protective equipment for medical staff like doctors, but otherwise 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.600 those wards were not secured. There was very minimal care 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:50.240 being given to patients, and then you had relatives and 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.080 other folk just walking in and out, and they seem 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.040 to be entirely unprotected, and of course that was putting 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.960 them at great risk and of course increasing the possibility 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.200 that the hospital itself would be a source of transmission 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:04.640 back out into the community. 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.440 Yeah, it looks I mean, it makes sense. Now that 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.200 you're saying that's the general hospital, because it looks to 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.520 me like TV wards I've been in places. It doesn't 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.400 look like a purpose built facility, which I guess is 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.520 part of the problem. I do want to ask you 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.080 briefly how you got there, And then David was pointing 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.200 out to me earlier this morning that you said that 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.160 you hadn't really planned on going in to this extent. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.880 Why did you change your mind once you were on 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:26.320 the ground. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.920 We were there for several days. We'd spoken with the 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.760 with the medical staff, got their permission, we got the 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:37.560 permission from the patients to enter that ward, and you know, 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.320 I just felt it was very important to witness firsthand 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.520 and to show the reality of care in the Congo, 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.200 particularly in this frontline area here in the main city. Bunye, 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.480 the head of the who has been here the last 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:58.600 couple of days, Doctor tedros gabiesis there. You know, AID 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.400 agencies are present here. There's certainly some supplies coming in now. 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.480 Is that the opening of a new isolation ward in 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.240 the city this morning? But up there in those rural 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:13.520 areas where the greatest number of cases are found, for 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.880 a whole combination of factors. It's extremely very little aid 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.760 has reached there so far, and you know they're in 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.680 a crisis situation, which of course is bad, terrible news 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:26.320 for the people who are already sick, but it also 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:31.240 means that the spread of this virus is frankly unknown 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:33.120 and probably still uncontained. 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.320 Dechlan something we've spoken about with Jeremy Connandyke, public health 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.040 official from the US, with Tom Frieden, former head of 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.000 the CDC, as well as just about the cultural difficulties 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.200 here conveying to the population the seriousness of this outbreak, 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.240 and you point to something very worrisome in your piece. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.960 You say many refuse to accept the virus was real. 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.120 You continue, Some said the outbreak was a money making 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:56.160 plot concocted by Congolese doctors and Ford aid workers. Others 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.360 call it a curse. As we talk about the deficit 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:03.000 in the health response to this crisis, how acute is 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.119 this problem in particular just conveying to the population how 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.560 dangerous this is, and trying to explain in light of 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.639 those the sense of what's happening here that that in 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.679 fact is not the case. This is a very serious virus. 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.639 It's an absolutely crucial point when you speak to aid workers. Second, 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.760 the first thing they'll tell you is they need equipment. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.080 The second thing they'll say they need is education and 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.000 engagement with these communities. Some of these communities are extremely 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.879 hostile to the virus. It's not just sorry to the 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.280 idea of the virus. It's not just that they don't 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.000 believe it exists. They have carried out attacks against hospitals. 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.159 The hospital that I visited had an isolation ward that 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.879 was under construction burned down. It came under attack the 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.800 first night we were there from a group of over 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.520 one hundred people who wanted to retrieve the body of 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.480 a local spiritual leader who had just died of abola. 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:57.880 And what that all gets to is the whole practice 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.480 of funerals. I think, as you noted, you know, the 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.400 body of a person. A person is most contagious at 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.560 the last stages of the disease and after they have died, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.760 So how the dead or buried is absolutely crucial. Otherwise 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.680 funerals can turn into super spreader events. So you see 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.640 these really courageous local health workers and Red Cross officials 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.440 who are doing their best to educate people to try 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:28.280 and carry out safe burials of bodies, but because frankly, 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.720 the effort is so far behind the curve. As I said, 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.720 this outbreak is thought to have started probably six weeks 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.159 maybe two months ago, but was only declared discovered and 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.160 declared two weeks ago. So the entire effort is far 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.600 behind the curve, which means there's very little reliable data 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.960 about how much it has spread, and that's only feeding 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.840 into this suspicion among local communities who, as far as 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.440 they're concerned, to see people going into hospitals just to die. 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:00.840 Deethan, I also want to ask you, I want to 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:02.560 focus on something you talk about, because you report that 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.399 the hospital has no food or water to give to 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.520 ailing patients. This is consistently an issue with health care 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.680 in places like this. I know when you're giving HIV medication, 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.160 when you're giving tuberculos and the medication, when you're giving 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.320 supportive care. That supportive care can't work if your patient 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.680 is malnourished or you don't have clean water, And it's 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.600 often the part of the response that it seems to 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.399 get lost in the shuffle. Are there any efforts being 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.240 made to address that piece of this? What is needed 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:35.000 and where do you think it should be coming from. 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.000 Look very I mean, certainly the World Food Program have 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.520 mobilized in this area. They're mounting feeding programs and so on. 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.640 But you know, there are two issues with that. Firstly, 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.040 as you say, you know, in a hospital like this, 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.160 they just don't generally for normal treatment to provide food 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:50.560 or water. 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.120 The families are generally responsible for bringing food. 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:53.840 To family. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.199 They come in, they provide the food. Now that is 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.159 providing a biosecurity hazard in this environment because family members 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.440 come in unprotected to provide food to people and run 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.200 a high risk of being contaminated themselves. The other issue 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.800 is in terms of people's ability to fight this virus. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.600 Because this virus is a it's a rare virus that 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.600 as yet has no vaccine and no cure. The only 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.440 way to treat it really is to bolster the defenses 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:23.960 of a person who is sick in order that their 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:28.919 own body can fight that virus. And obviously, food, water, 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:33.560 IV drips, all of these very basic you know, not 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:38.600 even medical treatments, but certainly basic things to bolster their 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:43.000