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Speaker 1: Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I writer.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Steve Drison.

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Speaker 1: In our previous episode, we talked about how the interrogation

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Speaker 1: room works.

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Speaker 3: Today we're going to show you.

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Speaker 1: Steve and I are going to tell you about a

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Speaker 1: young man named Robert Davis. This is a frightening story

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Speaker 1: of a murder investigation that went horribly wrong. Roberts was

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Speaker 1: one of the first false confession cases I worked on,

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Speaker 1: and I'll never forget it because it taught me how

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Speaker 1: easily an ordinary person can get caught up in a

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Speaker 1: web of injustice. We first learned about Robert Davis back

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Speaker 1: in twenty eleven. The story came from a local newspaper

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Speaker 1: out of Charlottesville, Virginia.

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Speaker 2: I was in a space at the time where I

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Speaker 2: was looking for false confessions wherever I could find them,

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Speaker 2: and one day an article about Robert's case turned up

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Speaker 2: in my newsfeed. And when I read the article, I

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Speaker 2: was attracted to it for a number of reasons. One

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Speaker 2: was that there was a recording of the entire interrogation process,

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Speaker 2: and that's sort of the gold that everybody was looking for.

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Speaker 2: Can you see how police manipulate an innocent suspect into

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Speaker 2: confessing to a crime they didn't commit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so many people think that's only for

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Speaker 1: extremely young children, that's only for intellectually limited people. But

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Speaker 1: Robert Davis is every man's us. He's a normal, normal

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Speaker 1: guy in every sense, you know, to the extent there

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Speaker 1: is a normal person. Robert Davis could be your neighbor,

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Speaker 1: he could be your kid's friend. And there's no better

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Speaker 1: illustration of the power of the interrogation room, the way

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Speaker 1: these techniques work, the way they can transform the innocent

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Speaker 1: into the guilty in a matter of hours than this case.

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Speaker 2: After receiving the interrogation video, I knew I had to

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Speaker 2: get involved in this case, and I knew I had

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Speaker 2: to work on it with Laura.

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Speaker 1: Robert Davis's case was my first case where I became

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Speaker 1: involved as an expert. The interrogation video it's one of

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Speaker 1: the most coercive videos I've ever seen. It speaks for itself.

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Speaker 1: It's horrible to watch, and it calls out for action.

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Speaker 2: In many ways. Robert's case was an early incarnation of

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Speaker 2: the kind of clemency campaign that Laura and I recently

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Speaker 2: mounted in the case of Brendan Dacy. Using clips from

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Speaker 2: the interrogation to tell what had happened him, bringing in

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Speaker 2: experts from different fields, including law enforcement, to weigh in

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Speaker 2: on what was wrong with that interrogation, and helping to

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Speaker 2: personalize Robert through the media.

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Speaker 1: Robert Davis's story begins in Crozy, Virginia, a middle class

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Speaker 1: suburb of Charlottesville. Robert lived in a small house with

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Speaker 1: his mom, and they were really close. In the winter

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Speaker 1: of two thousand and three, he was a senior in

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Speaker 1: high school and with graduation just a few months away,

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Speaker 1: Robert was looking forward to the next phase of his life.

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Speaker 1: But on the night of February nineteenth, a terrible tragedy

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Speaker 1: happened on Robert's block. Fire broke out in a neighboring house,

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Speaker 1: the home of a young mother and her three children.

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Speaker 1: The fire department is called. They arrive at the scene.

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Speaker 1: It's a snowy night right snowflakes are coming down fast

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Speaker 1: and furious firefighters get there. They battle through the snow.

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Speaker 1: They put out the fire, and once the fire is subdued,

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Speaker 1: they go upstairs to one of the bedrooms, which is

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Speaker 1: where they find the body of the homeowner, a forty

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Speaker 1: one year old woman named Nola Charles, and when they

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Speaker 1: turned Nola's body over, they saw a knife in her back,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly it became very clear that this fire had

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Speaker 1: been set to cover up a murder.

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Speaker 2: Then the firefighters walked down a hallway to look in

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Speaker 2: some of the other bedrooms. This is a very small house,

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Speaker 2: so it was just a short walk and under some

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Speaker 2: debris they found the body of Nola's young son, Thomas Charles,

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Speaker 2: and he had died of smoke in elation. You know,

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Speaker 2: this was a horrific crime anyway you slice it. You know,

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Speaker 2: the murder of a mother, the death of a small child, stabbings,

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Speaker 2: an arson to try to cover up the crime. This

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Speaker 2: is something that would have been unheard of in Crose

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Speaker 2: and just would have been a complete and total shock

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Speaker 2: to the entire community.

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Speaker 1: An investigation starts and pretty soon the police identify some

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Speaker 1: likely suspects. It's actually two other teenagers. Their names are

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Speaker 1: Rocky and Jessica Fugit. Rocky was nineteen. He was also

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Speaker 1: a senior in high school, like Robert Davis, but he

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Speaker 1: was somebody who had a really troubled past. He'd struggled

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Speaker 1: with drug addiction, with alcoholic and he'd gotten in trouble

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Speaker 1: with the police for doing things like leaving dead birds

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Speaker 1: in church sanctuaries. His sister, Jessica was fifteen, and she

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Speaker 1: had struggled her whole life with mental illness, delusions, hallucinations.

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Speaker 1: She was somebody who really grappled with her own demons,

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Speaker 1: and she was friends with Nola Charles's teenage daughter, Wendy,

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Speaker 1: but Jessica didn't like Wendy's mom. Jessica was known to

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Speaker 1: have a grudge against Nola Charles, and so based on

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Speaker 1: all this information, the police picked up Rocky and Jessica

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Speaker 1: within only a few days of this fire, and they

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Speaker 1: bring them down to the police station for questioning, and

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Speaker 1: soon enough, the two of them confess that they were

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Speaker 1: involved in the killing of Nola Charles and the setting

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Speaker 1: of the house on fire. After they confessed, Jessica led

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Speaker 1: the police to a snowy field behind Nola charles home

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Speaker 1: where she and Rocky had buried an iron bar that

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Speaker 1: had been used to bludgeon Nola Charles before she was stabbed,

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Speaker 1: and that iron bar still had Nola's DNA all over it,

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Speaker 1: So Jessica was able to lead the police to this

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Speaker 1: new evidence that they didn't know about that corroborated her confession.

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Speaker 1: The confession's true. Rocky and Jessica are guilty. They've never

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Speaker 1: said otherwise. Case closed. And if this was the end

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Speaker 1: of the story, right, we wouldn't be telling it to you.

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Speaker 1: But it's not the end of the story. Because the

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Speaker 1: police were convinced that Rocky and Jessica had not acted alone,

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Speaker 1: and they each started rattling off a list of names

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Speaker 1: other kids in their high school. The police determined that

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Speaker 1: each one of these other high schoolers had an ironclad

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Speaker 1: alibi until the last name on the list, which is

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Speaker 1: Robert Davis. Robert had been at home alone asleep, not

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Speaker 1: a very good alibi, so the police decided to bring

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Speaker 1: him in for questioning.

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Speaker 2: Two Now, from the get go, Robert Davis and Jessica

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Speaker 2: and Rocky being together in the same space committing a

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Speaker 2: horrific cry maiden no sense at all. These two kids

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Speaker 2: picked on Robert, especially Rocky. The idea that Robert would

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Speaker 2: be with them and would commit a murder was absurd

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Speaker 2: and it didn't take a lot of smarts to see that.

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Speaker 1: But nonetheless, right the police go and pick up Robert Davis.

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Speaker 1: They bring him in for questioning. In the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night. Now, before we hear what happens next, I

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Speaker 1: want to stop for a minute and talk to you

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Speaker 1: about how interrogations work. Obviously, the goal is to get

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Speaker 1: the suspect to confess to the crime, but how does

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Speaker 1: that happen exactly? In the last episode, Steve and I

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Speaker 1: shared some of what we've learned from watching many hours

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Speaker 1: of interrogation tapes. But as shocking as what we described is,

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Speaker 1: you should know that interrogations used to be even worse.

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Speaker 1: One hundred years ago, it was common for police to

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Speaker 1: use physical violence. Innocent and guilty suspects alike were beaten,

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Speaker 1: hung from window, and otherwise tortured until they confessed just

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Speaker 1: to escape the suffering. Then, starting in the nineteen forties

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Speaker 1: and fifties, reform was in the air. Physically abusive practices

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Speaker 1: were thrown out. Police were trained to use words instead

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Speaker 1: of fists, and this change seemed like a progressive one

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Speaker 1: at the time. But now we know that psychological interrogation

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Speaker 1: techniques can also be highly problematic. They're very good at

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Speaker 1: persuading actual criminals to admit guilt, but they can also

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Speaker 1: produce false confessions. The manipulation begins with the interrogation room itself.

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Speaker 1: Like Steve said, these rooms are designed to make the

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Speaker 1: suspect feel isolated, cut off from all sources of support

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Speaker 1: or help. This is the type of room where police

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Speaker 1: brought Robert Davis on February twenty second, two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: at about one o'clock in the morning. He's by himself.

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Speaker 1: He's eighteen years old, and he's sitting in there alone,

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Speaker 1: not knowing what's happening now terrifying circuit stances. And then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, with the video camera rolling, the

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Speaker 1: police come into the interrogation room, two officers, big burly guys,

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Speaker 1: and they say to him.

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Speaker 4: Robert, which murder Thoma Charles, of Thomas Charles, you're when

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Speaker 4: we talked with the attempted murder of the two Charals daughters,

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Speaker 4: Katie and Wenney. Now it's really gotten serious.

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Speaker 5: This has exactly right.

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Speaker 1: And literally, you know, when you watch Robert react to

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Speaker 1: being accused of murder, you can feel the fear and

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Speaker 1: the panic and the anxiety just radiating off this video

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Speaker 1: and you could just watch his mind spin.

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Speaker 3: What can I do?

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Speaker 1: What can I do to convince these guys they've got

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Speaker 1: the wrong person? And so Robert says to them, what

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Speaker 1: any of us I think in that situation would say,

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Speaker 1: I swear.

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Speaker 5: To out all my life right now that I did

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Speaker 5: not do nothing oh this matter, I have nothing to

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Speaker 5: do with this. I will take a polygraph test right

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Speaker 5: now to prove to you that I did not have

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Speaker 5: nothing to do with this.

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Speaker 2: Interrogation trainers teach law enforcement officers that if a suspect

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Speaker 2: affirmatively asks for a polygraph exam, that that's one indicator

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Speaker 2: of innocence. It's not rock solid proof that somebody is innocent,

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Speaker 2: but it's a powerful statement that they have nothing to

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Speaker 2: fear and that they're willing to put their innocence to

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Speaker 2: the test.

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Speaker 1: And the officers shut them down. They tell them, no,

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Speaker 1: we don't have a polygraph, even though they actually have

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Speaker 1: one in the room next door. Now, why are they

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Speaker 1: refusing to listen to Robert as he's asserting dozens of

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Speaker 1: times his innocence. Well, that's how officers are trained to interrogate.

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Speaker 1: Interrogation is basically a two staged process. The goal of

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Speaker 1: the first stage, which we've just heard a little bit of,

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Speaker 1: is to bring the suspect down to hopelessness. This officer

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Speaker 1: is telling Robert that it's pointless to say he's innocent

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Speaker 1: because they already know he's guilty. An interrogator's job is

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Speaker 1: to make the suspect feel trapped, using every tool available,

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Speaker 1: and as many people don't realize, these tools can include lying.

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Speaker 6: Underskin.

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Speaker 4: It is the worst saying.

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Speaker 2: The world was for the dust.

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Speaker 7: Can you see it?

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Speaker 1: They say to him, we found your DNA in the

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Speaker 1: house from your skin cells that just shed naturally off you.

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Speaker 1: And of course this is false, right. The house have

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Speaker 1: gone up in flames, there was no forensic evidence whatsoever

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Speaker 1: recovered from the scene.

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Speaker 3: It's a complete lie.

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Speaker 1: But in the United States, police are allowed to lie

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Speaker 1: during interrogations. And again you can see radiating off this

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Speaker 1: videotape the terror in Robert's face. Right, how can this be?

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Speaker 1: I've never been in that home.

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Speaker 2: And then the officer says something I have never seen

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Speaker 2: in any other interrogation, and I've seen that thousands of

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Speaker 2: hours of interrogations.

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Speaker 5: I can't lie about the evidence.

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Speaker 2: I can't lie about the evidence, Robert. I mean, talk

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Speaker 2: about a whopper. Not only can he lie during the interrogations,

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Speaker 2: but he can lie about the evidence. And he's lying about.

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Speaker 3: A lie exactly, talk about a mind fux.

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Speaker 2: We'll just drop the F word, drop the F bomb.

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Speaker 1: It's appropriate in this case, right, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: the psychological game that twists the world for people in.

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Speaker 3: The box, and it works.

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Speaker 1: Now, let's take a moment to remember that Robert is

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Speaker 1: going through this ordeal completely alone. At eighteen years old,

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Speaker 1: he's legally an adult, but even if he were younger,

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Speaker 1: in most states, it's perfectly legal to question a child

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Speaker 1: without notifying their parent or guardian. This is a desperate situation,

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Speaker 1: and like anyone would, Robert asks for the best protector

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Speaker 1: he has. He asks for his mom, but that request

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Speaker 1: is turned around and used to break him down even further.

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Speaker 7: I will talk to mom, please, I'd do that, but

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Speaker 7: ALI will cooperations.

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Speaker 2: Then they do something especially insidious. The lead investigator says

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Speaker 2: that he had just had a phone call with Robert's

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Speaker 2: mother and his mother was crying hysterically on the phone.

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Speaker 2: You know, And this investigator tells Robert, your mom wants

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Speaker 2: you to cooperate. Your mom is saying, Robert, you know,

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Speaker 2: tell the truth so that I can help you to

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Speaker 2: go on with your life, right.

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Speaker 1: To save your life exactly, And of course, that's all

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Speaker 1: made up, right. He didn't actually have this conversation with

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Speaker 1: the mother at all. It's horrible to watch the police

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Speaker 1: twist a mother child relationship into a bludgeon to be

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Speaker 1: used in the interrogation room. It's a disgusting ploy, deeply manipulative,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's.

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Speaker 3: Very hard to watch.

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Speaker 2: There are other moments that are just you know, classic

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Speaker 2: threats of punishment and promises of leniency and the calculated

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Speaker 2: choice of words on the part of this officer have

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Speaker 2: always intrigued me.

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Speaker 4: And I'm trying to keep you from that must ultimate

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Speaker 4: the punishments you can get and you're not in.

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Speaker 7: Healthyly help you.

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Speaker 2: He refuses to say death penalty. He uses the words

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Speaker 2: ultimate punishment as if that's somehow less direct a threat.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's an effort to dance around something that

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Speaker 2: everybody knows is true, which is Robert is fighting for

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Speaker 2: his life in this interrogation room.

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Speaker 1: This is the moment when all of these psychological techniques,

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Speaker 1: all of this mind fuck, finally takes hold, and Robert

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Speaker 1: looks up at these officers from the corner of the

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Speaker 1: interrogation room.

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Speaker 3: And he says, I did to get out of.

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Speaker 1: This that's the climax of the entire interrogation. What can

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Speaker 1: I say I did to get me out of this?

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Speaker 1: Once the suspect has been brought down a hopelessness, once

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Speaker 1: their will has been broken, that's when the second stage

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Speaker 1: of interrogation begins. This is the moment when the suspect

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Speaker 1: is offered a choice. What's going to happen if they

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Speaker 1: don't confess, and what will happen if they do. For Robert,

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Speaker 1: option number one looks pretty terrible. The ultimate punishment or

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Speaker 1: best case scenario, ninety years in prison. But on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, the police tell Robert that if he confesses

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Speaker 1: his involvement in the crime, if he cooperates, the judge

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Speaker 1: will go easy on him. He might get as few

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Speaker 1: as five to ten years in prison, and at the

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Speaker 1: very least, they tell him he'll save his own life.

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Speaker 1: The interrogators have finally achieved their goal to make confessing

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Speaker 1: look like the best choice Robert has.

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Speaker 2: So you can see Robert breaking down. But he has

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Speaker 2: a problem. He's never been in that house, he's never

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Speaker 2: been with these people. He doesn't know who the people

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Speaker 2: are that are accusing him of these crimes. Even if

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Speaker 2: he wants to confess to this crime. He has no

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Speaker 2: idea of what happened.

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Speaker 1: So now the game becomes not convincing Robert that he

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Speaker 1: has to confess, but rather simply telling him what to say.

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Speaker 1: And so that's how the final few hours of this

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Speaker 1: interrogation are spent. Robert starts out not even knowing who

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Speaker 1: his accomplices are, and they have to give him the

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Speaker 1: names Rocky and Jessica. Okay, so Robert adopts those. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I was there with Rocky and Jessica, and we went

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Speaker 1: in the back door of the home.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the evidence of the scene was that the

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Speaker 1: entry had occurred through the front door, so the officers

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Speaker 1: have to correct that. No, Robert, the three of you

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Speaker 1: went through the front door. Then he's telling a story

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Speaker 1: in which he and Rocky and Jessica are down on

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Speaker 1: the first floor of the home and he Robert stays

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Speaker 1: down there during the attack. But of course Nolah Charles's

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Speaker 1: body was found in an upstairs bedroom. He's getting it

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Speaker 1: wrong again. So again, no, no, Robert, you were upstairs.

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Speaker 1: We know you were upstairs. You have to say you

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Speaker 1: were upstairs.

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Speaker 3: And this goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 4: I got somebody else Cluverner, you did another act.

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Speaker 5: You know what that act is?

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Speaker 2: You stabbed that one.

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Speaker 1: And the amazing thing is that while the officers are

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Speaker 1: feeding Robert all of this information correcting his mistakes, while

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Speaker 1: they're doing it, there's a level of self awareness because

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00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 1: they say to him, Robert, you realize that if I

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Speaker 1: have to tell you what you did, that defeats the purpose,

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Speaker 1: and then they do it anyway. After Robert creates this

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Speaker 1: confession and seals his own fate, he looks up at

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Speaker 1: these officers and he says, do you think by me

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Speaker 1: telling you all this, it's going to get me home?

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Speaker 1: And the officer looks at him and says, no, you're

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Speaker 1: not going to go home. You'll see a judge on Monday.

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Speaker 1: And Robert looks at him.

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Speaker 5: And says, this to just.

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Speaker 1: Sun, I'm lying to you about all of this. It

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Speaker 1: is the clearest recantation I have ever seen.

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Speaker 2: And the most immediate. I mean, he hasn't left the

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Speaker 2: interrogation room yet.

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Speaker 1: He thought he's going to go home, back to his mom,

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Speaker 1: back to his high school life, and instead he is

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Speaker 1: handcuffed and led out of that room to a jail

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Speaker 1: cell where he's booked for double murder and arson, and

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Speaker 1: where in fact he's staring at decades in prison. Robert

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Speaker 1: Davis couldn't afford to hire a lawyer, so the court

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Speaker 1: appointed one for him. And when that happens, some people

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Speaker 1: get a lawyer like Lynn Kachinsky, the guy who botched

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Speaker 1: Brendon Dazzy's case in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 3: But for Robert this was a.

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Speaker 1: Moment when he finally got some amazing luck because the

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Speaker 1: lawyer appointed to defend him was a man who's dedicated

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Speaker 1: his life to fighting for people without a voice.

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Speaker 6: My name's Stephen Rosenfield, been practicing law for forty three years.

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Speaker 6: I'm a civil rights lawyer.

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Speaker 3: Steve Rosenfield is one of my heroes.

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Speaker 2: Mine too. And when Steve looks at the tape, he

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Speaker 2: sees everything that we've just talked about. He sees that

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Speaker 2: police officers browbeat a teenager into confessing to a crime

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Speaker 2: that he didn't even know how to describe, and that

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00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,959
Speaker 2: they were the ones who scripted this confession.

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Speaker 1: Steve threw himself into this case with the passion of

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Speaker 1: a father who saw how worthless this confession was, but

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Speaker 1: who also saw the stakes. The real stakes here were

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Speaker 1: the rest of this eighteen year old's life.

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Speaker 2: So the job of a good lawyer, when faced with

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Speaker 2: a confession is to try to do everything in their

344
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Speaker 2: power to keep that evidence out of the trial and

345
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Speaker 2: to argue that that confession was involuntary and unreliable. And

346
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Speaker 2: that's exactly what Steve did.

347
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Speaker 6: Our goal was to keep the confession out because it

348
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 6: was coerced and did not reflect what really happened on

349
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Speaker 6: the night of the murders.

350
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Speaker 2: Steve litigated this case, fought hard for Robert hired a

351
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Speaker 2: psychological expert to talk about the tactics that were used

352
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Speaker 2: by police officers, and he pointed out all of the

353
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Speaker 2: highlights that we've been talking about.

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Speaker 6: I was able to call our expert witness, and he

355
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Speaker 6: went through the kinds of factors that lend themselves toward

356
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Speaker 6: false confessions. Why a young man, having been threatened with

357
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Speaker 6: a death sentence might say that he had done something

358
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Speaker 6: when in fact he had not.

359
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Speaker 1: And if you want to understand the problem of false confessions,

360
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,399
Speaker 1: why this happens so much, Why people are convicted on

361
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 1: the basis of confessions like this one, it's because too

362
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Speaker 1: many judges believe that the law does not clearly prohibit

363
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Speaker 1: even threats that someone will face death if they don't

364
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: confess right, even cases where they have to be told

365
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: exactly what to say by their interrogators. This judge didn't

366
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Speaker 1: think the law prohibited that and allow this confession to evidence.

367
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Speaker 1: And when that happened, of course, then Robert Davis had

368
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Speaker 1: a horrible choice to make.

369
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Speaker 2: Knowing Steve, he was very clear and honest with Robert

370
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 2: about what the options were and what the chances are

371
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Speaker 2: of his being convicted.

372
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Speaker 6: Confessions are powerful. There was a more than likely chance

373
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Speaker 6: of him being convicted, and with a conviction surely would

374
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 6: have come a very hefty sentence. We were guessing that

375
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Speaker 6: it would have been a huge number of years or

376
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Speaker 6: life sentences for the killing of the child and the mother.

377
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Speaker 2: Do I go to trial and risk being sent to

378
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,919
Speaker 2: prison for the rest of my life for something I

379
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: didn't do? Or do I accept an offer that the

380
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: prosecution has made to me if I plead guilty to

381
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Speaker 2: one count of murder, I will be said to twenty

382
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: three years. Robert was eighteen years old when he was arrested,

383
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 2: so that would mean that he could get out at

384
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,239
Speaker 2: the age of forty one. He would still have a

385
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: life half a life half a life. He could have

386
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Speaker 2: a family, he could have some future.

387
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Speaker 6: Right.

388
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: It's a horrible choice, but it's the kind of choice

389
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 1: that defendants face in courtrooms around the country every single day.

390
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: Robert chose the deal. He entered a plea of guilty

391
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,719
Speaker 1: in exchange for those twenty three years, a horribly difficult,

392
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Speaker 1: deeply unjust decision that he was forced to make, but

393
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Speaker 1: also one that I can't fault inform the slightest. I

394
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Speaker 1: think any of us in that position would probably do

395
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Speaker 1: the same thing.

396
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,239
Speaker 2: But what Steve said to Robert is I will not

397
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Speaker 2: give up on you. I will continue to investigate this case.

398
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: Steve Rosenfield promised Robert Davis that he would walk with him,

399
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 1: that he would stay with him, he would visit him

400
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: in prison. You wouldn't forget him.

401
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 2: And Steve also said to him, look, I know you

402
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 2: didn't commit this crime, and I know you don't want

403
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 2: to say an open court that you did. There is

404
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: something called an Alford plea that will enable you to

405
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 2: save face.

406
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: You've got someone proclaiming their innocence, but who doesn't have

407
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 1: the power of resources, ability, legal standing to fight the

408
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: evidence against them. So they cry, uncle, I'm innocent, but

409
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Speaker 1: I can't fight this. That's what an Alfred plea is.

410
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: We've seen it in many other wrongful conviction cases, most

411
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: prominently in the West Memphis three case.

412
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: One of the consequences is that you can't sue the

413
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: state for violating your civil rights. The Alfred plea disqualifies

414
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: you from recovering any compensation for the years, sometimes decades,

415
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 2: you've spent in prison.

416
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 3: It's a tool of injustice.

417
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: Should not exist, but it does, and that's the tool

418
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: that was used to secure Robert Davis's twenty three year

419
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: prison sends. Steve Rosenfield kept his promise even while Robert

420
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: served his time. Steve continued pounding the pavement looking for

421
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: new evidence of Robert's innocence. He even reached out to

422
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: family members of Rocky and Jessica Fugit, who were both

423
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: serving life.

424
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 3: Sentences in prison.

425
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: Steve never gave up hope that one day Rocky and

426
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 1: Jessica might come forward and tell the truth. And then

427
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: one day that hope arrived in the mail.

428
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 6: After about eight years, I received a letter from the

429
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 6: boy who said that his conscience was bothering him and

430
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 6: would I come down and visit him and he told

431
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 6: us the truth. He told us that he and his

432
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 6: sister were the only two present. He came up with

433
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 6: the idea of framing Robert because he thought it could

434
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 6: help at his sentencing if the prosecutor was pleased with

435
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 6: his cooperation.

436
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: It was like manna from heaven. Right, the accuser of

437
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: Robert Davis recants and says, I was wrong. I feel

438
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: terrible about it. Help me make this right.

439
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: The only hope that Robert had was if the governor

440
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: of Virginia would step in and issue a pardon. And

441
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: so that's Steve Rosenfield's plan. Let's go to the governor,

442
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: Let's tell him about Rocky's recantation, and let's highlight all

443
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: the problems with this interrogation. Now, a local Charlottesville newspaper

444
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: called The Hook wrote an article about steve clemency campaign

445
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: for Robert. And that's the article that showed up in

446
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: your newsfeed.

447
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: Right, Steve, exactly. I read that story and I reached

448
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 2: out to Steve and I said, what can we do

449
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: to help? And as we talked, I noticed that Steve

450
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: had hired a psychological expert for Robert's case, but he

451
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: didn't have an expert who could really look at the

452
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: interrogation and say, these are the kinds of tactics that

453
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 2: lead to coerced and unreliable confessions. I volunteered our assistance

454
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 2: in doing that. I had done some expert work, and

455
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: I wanted Lara to start doing some expert work. So

456
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: I assigned Lara the lead role in analyzing this interrogation.

457
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: But we also offered Steve other ways in which to

458
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: publicize and highlight Roberts's plight. I had worked with a

459
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 2: number of producers on NBC's Dateline Show, and I reached

460
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: out to them and I said, this is gold. We

461
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: have a videotaped interrogation from start to finish. You can

462
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: actually see on this tape how someone confesses to a

463
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: crime they didn't commit. And we also reached out to

464
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 2: other experts in the law enforcement field to look at

465
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: Robert's interrogation and to weigh in on all the things

466
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: that police officers did wrong.

467
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the thing, right.

468
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: We knew that we needed to elevate Robert's story and

469
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: bring a community of different people to get to push

470
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: all in their different ways against a system that's designed

471
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: to keep people in prison.

472
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: We knew that.

473
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: Public opinion would rally around Robert Davis. Once people saw

474
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: this story, we knew that people inside Virginia would care

475
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: about the way interrogations were being conducted in their state

476
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: and would hopefully press the governor to do the right

477
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: thing in Robert's case. And then one more.

478
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: Thing happened, more manna from heaven.

479
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 3: It was Jessica Fujet.

480
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 6: I received a letter from her saying that she knew

481
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 6: that she had done wrong by framing Robert and that

482
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 6: she wanted to make amends for that.

483
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: That's when we started to really believe there was a

484
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: chance of getting Robert Davis out of prison.

485
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 6: I met with Governor mccaulliffe. We talked for about forty minutes.

486
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 6: I suggested to him that he grant at least a

487
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 6: conditional pardon and then revisit the case in a year,

488
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 6: and that was the grounds under which Governor mccaulliff agreed

489
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 6: to release Robert, deciding that with the statements of the

490
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 6: two kids, there was a much better likelihood that he

491
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 6: would have been found not guilty.

492
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: It's been twelve years of incarceration for Robert, and suddenly,

493
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: a few days before Christmas, he's allowed to go home.

494
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: It's an incredible moment where you can you can hear

495
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: the joy in his voice and in his mother's voice

496
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: as they embrace for the first time after Robert is freed.

497
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: It was beautiful, just beautiful.

498
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 8: Right.

499
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 5: I'm home, man like I can reach out and not

500
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 5: touch nothing. I don't see no gates now, I don't

501
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 5: see no fences.

502
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: As a part of dayline documenting Robert's release, they go

503
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: and speak to the chief of the Albemarle County Police

504
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: Department and they ask him how he feels about Robert

505
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: Davis's release.

506
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 8: I will say this, I believe that the confession is

507
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 8: an unreally viable confession. Using terms like the ultimate punishment,

508
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 8: length of the interview, those kinds of things would be

509
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 8: clearly not done today.

510
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: He was embarrassed by what he saw, and this was

511
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: somebody from the same police department in the same community,

512
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 2: reflecting back on what he saw when he looked at

513
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: the tape.

514
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: And with that admission of a mistake, the Governor of

515
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: Virginia a year later granted Robert that full pardon based

516
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: on actual innocence. He exonerated him.

517
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 6: Robert and I have maintained a close relationship all these years,

518
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 6: he's just such a great kid at go the kid

519
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 6: in mid thirties. Now he has an extended family, wonderful friends.

520
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 6: He has highly thought of in the community. He's a

521
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 6: sweet guy with a big heart. He's very optimistic about

522
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 6: the future. And this has been in spite of having

523
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 6: spent his form of years in prison. So by and large,

524
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 6: he uses every day to enjoy and put behind him

525
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 6: some of that ugly past.

526
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: That's the thing.

527
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we'd watched on that interrogation video Robert be

528
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: transformed from just an innocent member of the community into

529
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: a confessed murderer, and now, thirteen years later, we could

530
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: watch him be transformed back and it was a beautiful

531
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: thing to watch, the retelling of the story the right way. Hello, Hey, Robert,

532
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: it's Flora. How are you doing.

533
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 8: I'm doing well. How are you?

534
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: I'm good.

535
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: I'm good.

536
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: You just got off work today?

537
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: Hunh.

538
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: What are you doing for a job?

539
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: He days?

540
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 5: I'm doing electrically working for the five days.

541
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 7: Amazing, fantastic.

542
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: I heard you got engaged recently to congratulations.

543
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

544
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: And she's got a daughter here, so you're a stepdad.

545
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a lot of responsibility.

546
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 5: It is a lot of responsibility, but I definitely enjoy it.

547
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 3: It's great.

548
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: The one question we're always asked in our work is

549
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: why would anyone confess to a crime that they didn't commit?

550
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: And when you watch the video of Robert Davis, it's

551
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: the perfect answer to the question, why would anyone confess

552
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: to a crime they didn't commit? The answer is because

553
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: they're interrogated like this. When you're fighting a wrongful conviction,

554
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: what you are doing, at the end of the day

555
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: is trying to rewrite the story that's been told about

556
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: your client.

557
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: You're rewriting history, right, You're.

558
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: Changing the legacy of what happened.

559
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: And the story that led to the conviction is a

560
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: story of guilt, a story of harm, of damage, of pain,

561
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: and of someone who, at the end of the day,

562
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: deserves to be locked up in a cage for the

563
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: rest of their life. That's the story that when you

564
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: fight a wrongful conviction.

565
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: That you have to change.

566
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us. I hope you'll come

567
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: back next week when we'll be telling the story of

568
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: Chicago's own Central Park jogger case, known as the Dixmore Five.

569
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: The Dixmore five were a group of teenage boys who

570
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: confessed to the rape and murder of their own classmate

571
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: and were convicted despite some of the strongest evidence of

572
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: innocence imaginable. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of

573
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number One.

574
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: Special thanks to our executive producer Jason Flamm and the

575
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: team at Signal Company Number one. Executive producer Kevin wardis

576
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: Senior producer and Pope, and additional production and editing by

577
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: Connor Hall.

578
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: Our music was composed by Jay Ralph.

579
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter at Laura Nyrider,

580
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: and you can follow me on Twitter at s Drizsen.

581
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com

582
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: and be sure to follow the show on Instagram at

583
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,479
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on

584
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction