WEBVTT - #060 Jason Flom with Pete Ouko 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.720 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.920 I was brought up like copsure the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.680 do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:21.800 everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.360 I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.760 do with this. How is this possible? I grew up 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.920 trusting systems. I've grew up believing that every human being 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.680 should do the right thing. And that's why, even though 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:36.360 I knew I was dealing with four other people, I 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.479 wasn't going to break anyone to get me out of 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.199 prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.120 break my way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent, 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.440 too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.839 And that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:53.479 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.480 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:20.280 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.160 episode is a very special one. My friend Pete Uko 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.760 is here all the way from Kenya, where he was 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:32.040 sentenced to death even though a jury unanimously found him innocent. Pete, 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.120 I'm glad you're here. Welcome to the show. 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.360 Thank you for hosting me, Jason. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:37.479 First time in America, right. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:38.880 Yeah, first time in America. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.319 Could still dis in full amazing. Well, we're happy you're here. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:47.440 Your story is remarkable in so many ways. Of course, 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.840 the craziest part of all is the fact that you 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.920 were found innocent by a jury unanimously, and then the 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.560 judge overruled the jury and sentenced you to death. Obviously 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:00.800 they didn't succeed in killing you, because you're here, and 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.880 I'm very happy about that, so you're sort of immortal. 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.240 And then eighteen years in prison later, and now this 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.960 story is just it's phenomenal. But let's start at the beginning. 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.120 So you were born in Kenya. 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.360 I wasn't born in Kenya forty eight years ago. A 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.640 big family of twelve. My mom had nine girls and. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.400 Three boys, which one were you? 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:24.440 I'm number eight back down in. 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.239 The line, number eight, okay, and two same parents for 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:29.880 all twelve kids. Yeah, amazing, that's what we thought is 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.520 in Africa sometimes. And what about your parents? What did 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:33.760 they do? 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.680 Oh? My dad passed twenty nineteen ninety seven, just a 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.799 year before I went to prison. And my mom is 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.120 still alive. She's a retired teacher. She stays up country 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.399 does farming. We're just aging gracefully. 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:45.919 And what was your dad doing before he died. 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:47.880 My dad was a lecturer, He was a civil servant. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.200 Both my parents actually are teachers. My mom taught me 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:52.239 grade one to three. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.720 So you grew up in this big, happy family. Yeah, 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:57.840 and it was in the city or. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.640 No, I grew up half of us grew up in 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.200 the city with my dad who my dad was working 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.280 in Arobi, and me and the others grew up country. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.240 Mom said she wanted to keep at least one of 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.079 the sons up country because she didn't want the town 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.560 influence to mess up her son. Then she picked on me. 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.279 I don't know why you went to school and graduated. 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:18.880 How did the education start? 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.560 And then I went to primary school from class one 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:23.920 to seven, I imagine as the best, one of the 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:28.400 best in the country in nineteen eighty two exams primary 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.040 school exams. Then I was admitted to Alliance High School, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:32.720 which is one of the top schools in the country, 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:34.760 where I did my old levels. After that, I went 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:38.280 from my A levels to another school and straight from school, 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.160 my mom wanted me to go study in India. I 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.640 didn't want to go study in India, so I went 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.400 straight to business. I was employed by Buttershoe Company as 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.280 a shop manager at nineteen years, just before I turned twenty. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:52.280 And you got married young. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.720 Yeah, I was twenty two and my late wife was eighteen. 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.720 Is that sort of typical in Kenya? So people get 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:01.520 married in their teens early twenties. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.360 No, in some instances it tease. Now it's changed, But 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:06.720 for me, I felt that getting married at that age 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.120 you'd help me cool down. I led a pretty white 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.560 life and I was just living the life so I 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.280 want today. I mean, I just say that the girl 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.680 would get my baby, just Maria straight. So when she 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:18.719 told me she was expecting my baby, I say it fine, 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:20.239 we make it happen. 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.599 And you did, and you did, and you had two kids. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.880 And then one night everything went horribly wrong in a 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:34.960 way that is almost unimaginable. So your wife was raped 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.039 and murdered in handcuffs, in front of the police station. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.360 And this is one of the things about this story 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.240 that just absolutely boggles the mind of everyone who hears it. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.480 But the fact is, this is what happened. So first 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.080 of all, how did this unwind that faithful night? Like, 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.560 what were you doing? Where was she? What were the circumstances? 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.039 How did this go so horribly wrong? 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.000 I mean, just like you've said, many people when they 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:03.920 hear my story and they see the mood, I mean, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.520 they think it's you know, they don't believe what it is. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.920 But yeah, on the eighteenth evening of December nineteen ninety eight, 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.400 the story is I was told my wife left work 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.280 to come home and she didn't come home. At that time, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.720 I was with my friend Willie. I was with Willie's family, 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.440 his late brother John, and we did dinner then really 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:30.279 dropped me home. Later Jennifer was supposedly leaving her work 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.160 at nine pm, just I think around nine pm according 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.240 to the evidence, I sawn got and then when she 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.800 didn't come home, I arrived home I think eleven when 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.680 I will dropped me and I didn't find a home. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.680 Back then, we didn't have mobile phones and Kenya, we 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.400 didn't have easy communications. So you had to rely on 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.760 the landlines. So I waited patiently. I didn't see her. 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:51.720 I was like, it's not normal for her not to 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.160 come home, But I don't know where to go start searching, 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:55.880 So I just assumed maybe she could have gone to 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.000 a cousin or a friend or relative. And yet I 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.479 had this nagging that something was wrong, but I didn't 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:02.800 know just what to do about it. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:04.760 And she was working in a soon. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.279 She was working in a salon, and she had a 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.240 late client that night who was having a wedding the 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.640 next day. These are things that came out in evidence 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.760 on you in court. So the client came in just 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.719 before Jenny was to leave work, and she kept Jennie 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.479 until nine o'clock and then she left Jenny in the salon. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.680 And that turns out to be an important detail later on, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:25.279 but go ahead. 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.480 Yeah, So the next day, on nineteenth, we woke up 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.240 in the morning. I didn't see Jenny. The house, I 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.599 didn't find Jenny. So I woke up very early, called 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:36.680 the office her workplace the phone was entering, and then 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.000 I went to my office was just not so far 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.040 from where her office was, made another call, a second 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.599 call because I was now getting agitated. Where could she be? 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.080 She didn't tell me. I didn't have information about if 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.479 she was supposed to go out anywhere, and I remember 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.600 it was a Friday. So the next thing I did 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.040 was I called again at around nine point thirty, and 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.359 then the lady on the other hand picked in the 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.679 salon and told me, Hey, Pete, we're sorry, but Jenny 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.080 has been found murdered. And I just went blank. I 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:06.880 didn't know what to think. I didn't know how to 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.920 react to it. I couldn't even cry because I just 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.720 didn't know. It just hit me. I was twenty eight 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.080 and Jennie was twenty four, and we had these small kids, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.520 and it just hit me like a thunderstorm. I just 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.040 got flomox and just stopped for a minute. And then 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.080 I had to recollect myself very first, because for one, 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.000 I knew I had left my kids in the house 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.560 with the house help, and my sister in law also 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.080 was staying with us, and I just didn't know how 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:34.720 to face it. I just lost my dad a couple 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.120 of months before, and Jenny was closest to me at 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.480 that moment, and I mean she was a darling to 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.240 my mom, very close to my mom, and she helped 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:45.920 mom go through that grieving moment and now here she was. 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:47.840 So I didn't know how I was going to face it, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.840 tell my mom, tell my kids. I just didn't know 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.240 how to handle that moment. So the first thing I 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:55.760 did because I asked her where has it happened? Then 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.920 she told me the body's been found right outside the 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.640 fence of the police station. So I just carried my 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.040 guide and asked myself, how can something like that happened 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.040 outside the police station? And I know the police station 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:08.320 is heavily guarded. 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.080 Just I just wanted to say, so the police station, 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.600 it wasn't like an outpost. It was like a proper 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:13.200 police station. 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.840 The police it's a big compound because the police lines 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.200 are there, the police stay there are the very rare, 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.080 and then the officers are in the front. So it's 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.720 a reasonably big not three acres, let me say, And 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.480 it's a reasonably big compound. And so the body was 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.520 found on the outside, just behind the police lines. We 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:34.240 call them the police lines, the police quoters are called 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.280 police lines in Kenya. So the body was just found 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.199 outside the fence there. So when she told me that, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.640 I couldn't understand how because I knew that even on 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.080 the other end, the police quoters are guided from back 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:45.560 and front. 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.440 If somebody was going to take somebody and murder them, 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.160 the last place they would take them instead the police station. 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.040 And that's that's that's what's hard to believe about this matter, 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.839 because initially you're like, how could that happen? I mean, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.280 anyone would have said this guy would fear been caught 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.200 somewhere here. And one of the things that seen in 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.000 Kenya was that if someone rapped a lady, he'd take 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.840 off if the lady didn't know that person, but if 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.440 that lady got killed in the process of rape, it 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.359 was out of fear that that person would be identified. 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.160 And then it happened right out of the police station. 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.760 The postmotem report came that the riga motives set in 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.559 when the hand was handcufft. That was the report of 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.120 the chief government pathologists at that time, and it's the 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.480 very handcuffs that I used to strangle around the neck. 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.120 So these are reports that I got to find later. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.319 But at the initial stage I went to the police station. 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.280 I found my in laws, who apparently hadn't approved of 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:46.120 our marriage before because they felt had taken out their 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:50.840 young girl before they had a chance to be long enough. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.920 Maybe my mother in law is very supportive. My father 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.160 and lawyers didn't like me. He just didn't want that. 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.360 But first forward to that evening, I reached there. I 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.920 find of my late wife's relatives, Jenny's relatives there. Then 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.120 they tell the cops lock this guy in. As simple 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.760 as that. I go to the police station. No one 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:11.800 gives me an apology, no one tells me pete sorry 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.080 or anything. The next thing I hear come into this room. 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.199 I get into the police room, I'm told to strip off. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.120 I don't know why I'm being told to strap off. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.080 I strip off, they do body search. Then I just 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.240 hear someone say out there, lock this guy in. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:26.839 What time of day was this? 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.280 That was around eleven o'clock in the morning. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.880 Right, so this is now about twelve hours since the 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.959 murder occurred. Yeah, so you show up there, the other 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.280 relatives are there, and they see you being taken into 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:39.960 the police station. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:41.880 They're the ones who said that I should be locked in. 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.600 Because they didn't like you, because they didn't like me. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.880 That's why it all started. It was about selling scores, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.160 like we didn't like this guy, so maybe let us 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.240 keep him somewhere. But they did know the ramifications. Just 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.120 to make it clear. They later came on to prison 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.960 and apologies to me, but it was too late because 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:00.200 I'd already been convict it. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:06.760 They knew from the beginning that Jennifer was murdered in handcuffs, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.120 raped and murdered in handcuffs. Rangle with the handcuffs, where 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.719 would you have gotten handcuffs from? 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.160 Because the big question, you know, the handcuff issue came 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.280 at the postmotem stage when the autopsy was being conducted. 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.640 But when the body was found there it was, as 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:24.880 they said, the recamotes set in when the hands were 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:26.719 upp here in a defensive position. 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.000 And they had taken the handcuffs off by now. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:30.520 Yeah I think, yeah, now, I think they've taken the 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.319 handcuffs off because she had scratch marks around her wrists 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:37.040 and on her neck, so the larynx was broken by 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:37.960 whatever it was. 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.400 I don't name her. And so so they take you 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.840 into the police station. First, they make you strip. Obviously 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.120 they were trying to see if you had some some 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.800 scratch marks because obviously she fought right. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.600 Yeah, Jenny could have let anyone do that. To her 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:53.079 without a fight, of course. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.679 Not especially a young man, but anybody. So you had 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.920 no scars, no scratches, nothing, And then they started asking 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:02.000 you questions, how does it work? 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:03.800 No question. I was just told I was just put in. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.600 I wasn't asked a single question. I wasn't told anything. 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.120 The moment I was told put this guy in, I 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.840 was thrown in for two weeks without talking to anyone. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:14.720 The law said that I should be taken to after 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.640 fourteen days, but I was kept there for another fourteen 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.400 days and then two more days, which was one month. 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.840 And can you describe that that's a jail, right, that's 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:25.360 not a present that you were in. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.600 No, that's police custody. It's just in the police custody. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.760 I was illegally detained for thirty days. 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:31.439 And can you describe what that was like? 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.640 The police jail cells like ten by ten feet, four 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.360 four men and two four ladies on the other side, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.200 so that total of six. But then it's a place 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.960 where they bring in every kind of person. The place 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.360 where my little wife was found murdered was Ina, densely 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.760 populated Eastland side of Nairobi, so they arrest drunks every 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.400 other day. The cells are always full. They're no blankets, 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.240 they're no beddings, there's not nothing. I mean, you're there 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.440 with drunks here there, with all kinds of people brought 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.720 in every day, and then they have to go to 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.400 court and you just kept there. You don't know why 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.720 you're being kept there. No one is telling you anything. 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.480 You get your newspapers, you read like everything is going 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:09.880 on normally, but there's no communication. 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.120 And they bring the food into the cell. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.559 I didn't take any food there. My secretary used to 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.440 bring me food because at that time i'd I'd started 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.600 my own business, and so I got food from home. 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.480 I didn't want to take any food because I didn't 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:23.480 trust anyone other time. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.520 I was very smart, actually, because considering that the conspiracy 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.800 was pretty clear from the beginning, you were the convenien 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.679 escape goat, and they had to get somebody because they 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:34.960 weren't going to arrest one of their own. 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.360 Yeah, at that time, we didn't even know it was 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.840 one of their own, but we had strong suspicions that 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.440 someone was hiding something there. I mean, I had a 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.360 very good lawyer, George came and took that matter as 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.360 if it was his own. It's like he was fighting 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.040 his own life. George is the lawyer, right, yeah, George 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:52.600 is my lawyer. 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.679 Okay, it's confusing to me sometimes George and judge. But 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:57.800 George is your lawyer and the judge is the judge, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.560 and two very different characters. Because George was an honest 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:01.880 guy and the judge was corrupt. 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.280 He asked for everything that was needed. They kept stolling 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.320 him for a full month, and they told me we 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.760 have nothing against this guy. Then he was asking, why 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.880 an't you releasing me if you have nothing against him? 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.960 So I think after a month, I had to write 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.600 a letter to the police commissioner and to the Toorney 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.760 General of the country because I'd noticed a pattern of 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:24.000 cover ups and pattern of travesty of justice. And also 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.240 the police were there. Because I'd stayed so long, I 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.880 became like the local there. Now they started telling me stuff, 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:31.440 right because everybody. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:32.920 Else is in and out, they're drunk and go home 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.240 the next day, and you're still the. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.440 Staff still there. I became a permanent feature there, and 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.400 they didn't know why I was being held. Mind you, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.560 by that time, no evidence, nobody had written any statement 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.400 about me or against me. Nothing that was nothing. The 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.400 fellow was empty. 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.400 So you had an empty file thirty days go by 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:11.880 because you weren't actually formally charged for four months, right. 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.080 No, I after thirty days when I wrote the letter. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.560 I wrote an official letter of complaint to the Attorney 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:22.080 General and to the Police Commissioner. And I was very 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.440 blunt in it. I said, I don't understand why I'm 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.520 in a police custody. I'm supposed to be moaning my wife. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.760 I'm supposed to be finding out what happened. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:30.880 To my wife and taking care of your children. 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.120 Yeah, and taking care of my children. But someone has 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.440 turned it into a circus and they're using that opportunity 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.280 to make up stuff and to cover up everything. So 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.120 I said, for heaven's sake, take me to court if 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:45.400 you feel you have anything against me. I'm the one 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.160 was take me to court. And when they got that, 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.760 because it was published in the media, they felt that 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.040 I'd really got into them. I mean, back then, the 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.000 criminal justice system was very rotten. You're not supposed to 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.120 question the police, You're not supposed to question anybody. And 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.520 so they said, okay, you've reported us to our bosses, 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.840 so now let's get down to it. So I was 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.720 taken to quote after a month. On the thirty first day, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.920 there was nothing, so I was told go back to 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.360 remand prison. At the remand prison, I waited for two weeks. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.680 I was taken back again to the police station because 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.360 I couldn't be kept in remand custody without a file, 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.160 without any evidence, I couldn't prepare for anything. There was 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.840 nothing on me, and so I went back to the 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.160 police station. They kept me again for another thirty days, 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.840 then they charged me after sixty days. By the time 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.560 they were charging me, they didn't have a single evidence 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.200 or any statement. So the first statement was written four 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.880 months after my arrest in April. Because I have all 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.000 the statements, we have all the dates, so we could 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:47.680 see when that thing was written. 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.760 Right right right, That's the number I had in my head, 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.800 was the four months, because that's when the only quote 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.720 unquote witness who wasn't even really a witness. It certainly 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.440 wasn't a witness of the murder. But this guy all 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.960 of a sudden comes out and remembers details. And we 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.359 see this again and again in frame ups right where 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.040 suddenly you have somebody have a miraculous recollection of something 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.040 that happened weeks or months or years ago that they 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.960 couldn't remember when they were initially questioned. And that's what 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:18.919 happened here. They had obviously somebody went and spoke to 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:20.520 this guy and told them what to remember. 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.960 Yeah, and I think God like, I think, you can 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.120 try to hide some things, but you can't hide everything. 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.280 And this guy when he came to court, he was 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.080 very frank and candid. Adding his statements, he says he 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.480 only wrote that statement after he was approached by the 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.360 police to go to the police station and write it. 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.680 He had nothing. He was told, now, come and do this, 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:41.960 and that's why his statement was so disjointed. He had 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.440 two statements. He wrote the first stedment, he wrote the 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.640 second statement, which contradicts the first statement. Luckily, unluckily, they 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.080 gave me both statements. So he just choose those two 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.040 statements to discredit his evidence. They're not adding up. 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.600 Okay, So what did he even say that he saw? 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.880 He said, he's saw someone come to pick Jennifer from 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:06.280 work at eight, then they left at nine. Now that 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.000 person was supposed to be me and me I was 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.880 somewhere else with Willie and Linda and John and their family. 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:14.960 So you had an alibi, and it was a good 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.000 albi because these weren't even family members of yours. 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.000 There were family members, and my alibi is too it. 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.320 By the way, that's the other absad thing about my case. 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:24.000 My other laba was accepted and I was still convicted. 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.320 Okay, it's getting weirder and weird, but how long did 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.760 it take from this point to actually get to trial. 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.280 We went to travel in July because Judge, my lawyer, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.520 was very insistent that we had together think cracking. He 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.639 didn't see a reason why I was supposed to be 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.320 in prison for something I didn't do. And George incidentally 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.440 also knew my late wife. They come from the same 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:50.760 region me. I'm married from Kenya. There was this issue 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.800 of this tribe should not marry this tribe at that stage. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.919 Nowadays it's more common in people into Marian stuff. So 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.159 there was that and it was basically political, but it 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.480 got ingrained in many people's psyche that certain tribes should 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.240 not intermarriage due to political competition. But then I went 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.679 against the green and my dad had told me human 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.159 beings are equal, so it doesn't matter where your friends 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.840 come from. But just to go back to your question, 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.479 this guy when he came and wrote that statement. He 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.919 came to court and said, I was told to do 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.359 X y Z. I was taken to the cell where 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.160 Pitt was before I wrote the statement, so he didn't 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.600 even know who he was talking about. He was brought 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:34.320 to the police cell. He will showed these a guy. 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.479 After that he went and wrote the statement. These are 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:39.679 stuff that in his official statement to the police and 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.440 evidence in court. But at that point, no one wanted 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.800 to do the right thing. The judicial system was totally corrupt. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.760 Judges were taking bribes left, right and center. Some judges 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.399 were even giving the litigants as long as they were paid. 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:57.760 You write the judgment, bring it for me to sign. 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.080 And that was one of the causes that the and 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.320 you had a total overhaul of the judiciary in two 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.520 thousand and three because it was throttened to the core. 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.679 So the judges were the richest guys in town. I 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:09.200 guess right. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:10.640 I don't know what they were doing with the money. 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:12.960 I think they were drinking it off and just running 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.879 around with pretty people. Maybe I don't know, But the 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:17.840 thing is, my judge was one of the first to 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:18.800 be sucked for corruption. 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:23.159 You really hit the reverse jackpot in terms of getting 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.639 a judge and then an a Pellet judge as well. 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:29.680 Both of them were proven later and fired for being 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.280 totally corrupt. Back to the story, so you go to 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.040 trial in July. Now let me just remember, so you've 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:38.840 now been behind bars for. 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.040 That's the seventh month. Now when the trail starts was 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.800 pretty fast, because back then you could start a trail 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.879 after two years Kenya, there was a big backlog. Judges 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.240 didn't want to do cases. But thank god to my 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.520 lawyer George, he was very, very persistent and he really 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.680 pushed to have everything done because he didn't see the 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.000 reason no I should be in prison. So this gay 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.560 comes to court says he's so Jennifer being walked away 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.600 by this guy who's supposed to be me. Then he 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.280 forgets at the same time, Jennifer had a client at 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.720 the very time he's talking about, Jenny was with a 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:13.800 clant in the salon and that's why she stayed late 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:17.480 until nine. So this clent comes to quote and says, 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.359 the very time this gay says that Jenny was picked, 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.040 I was actually with Jenny in the salon. No one 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.080 came to pick Jenny. I left at nine. No one 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.800 I didn't meet anyone in the stairs, and there's no 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:30.600 one I don't know this gay. This guy didn't come 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:31.240 to pick Jenny. 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.240 So he's now been proven to be a liar. 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:35.639 He was a left from the word go. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.920 So how many people were on the jury? Three? So 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.200 the jury are listening to the very stuff that we're 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.639 talking about now, right, the unraveling of the government's case, 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.320 and they saw through all of it. It was so 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.080 transparent that it's actually ridiculous. 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.800 It's ridiculous. And I'll just let you know that there 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.400 was so bewildered that there are times this top trial 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.840 to ask questions to the witnesses directly because it was 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.439 just not making sense to them, and because they law 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.639 allowed them to ask questions. When the judge noticed that 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:12.119 they were asking questions that were beneficial to me, he 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.480 would stop them. And that's when we suspected something was 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.120 a miss. But we believe that since I was innocent, 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.080 we had nothing to lose, we had nothing to fear. 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.040 I grew up trusting systems. I grew up believing that 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.000 every human being should do the right thing. That's what 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:29.639 my dad taught me. And that's why even though I 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:31.399 knew I was dealing with corup people. I was not 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.800 going to bribe anyone to get me out of prison 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:36.399 because I wouldn't live with the fact that I bribed 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:38.960 my way out of my wife's death. I said, if 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.000 someone wants to charge me, I need to clear my 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:41.840 name the right way. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.639 Wow, that's a pretty strong statement. Back to the trial, 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:48.320 So how long did the trial last? 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.920 The trial lasted the first year and then we had 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.360 to take a break because two of the jury members 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.080 were taken out to go do something somewhere. You said 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:00.520 it lasted the first year and then the second because 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:02.360 it ended in two thousand and one. 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.040 Wait, but how long how many days or weeks or 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:05.840 months did the trial? 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.120 No, you'd have a trial two days in a week, 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:11.600 then you're given an adjudgment for another three months. You 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.480 come back, you have three days, you're giving another judgment 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.200 for six months. I mean, it's nothing like you have 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:19.719 one week of trial and the decision is meant. 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.320 So that's an interesting system because that gives everybody just 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.000 enough time to forget everything that they just heard exactly. 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.600 But that's so ridiculous, Like why it doesn't make I mean, listen, 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:32.080 I'm not I'm not going to be critical because I 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.840 know just how backwards our system is in so many ways. 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:37.720 But that seems completely crazy. Why wouldn't you have a 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.120 trial that is contiguous? Is there any rationale for that? 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:45.320 I mean, hard walking judges, consenttious judges insist on having 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.480 trills started and completed at the best name. But I 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.200 wasn't dealing with a concenttious judge, just like I've said, 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:53.080 so he had his own agenda. 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.200 Okay, now I understand when you said the trial lasted 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:56.840 a year two years. I'm thinking, you're going every day 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:57.160 to court. 0:23:57.359 --> 0:23:59.560 No no, no, no no. You go for a day or 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.000 two adjuntment for one reason or another. The next day 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.520 you're giving another three months to wait. You go back 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:09.720 to prison, you just hung out there, You come back again. 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.359 Maybe the witnesses are not there to go back home. 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.240 That's another thing. Like even the jurors, what if I mean, 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:17.320 this is so crazy for them too, because what if 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:19.640 they go away or somebody moves and then you haven't 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:22.360 But it was the same jurors throughout the whole. 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:24.480 It was the same jurors. I mean, there were people 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:27.480 who are I just looked at them and felt these 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:31.840 days could do justice because they had no emotions. They 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:35.680 were just stunfist. So but they were listening through every 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:36.280 single thing. 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:40.320 So the trial takes forever two. 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.320 Years, which was very fast by Kenyon's standards. At that time. 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:44.439 Two years. 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:46.960 Trials were going for five years, six years. 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:52.520 Oh my god. The trial takes in your case two years, 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:56.240 which is an eternity. When you're in the situation you're 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:00.000 in having lost your wife, you had to be super 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:04.639 worried about your kids. I mean, they're having a normal upbringing, 0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:08.240 happy family. Next thing you know, mom's been murdered and 0:25:08.280 --> 0:25:11.840 then dad's gone, and then everyone's probably talking to them 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:16.280 saying horrible things about you. I mean, it's a miracle 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:18.840 that they're doing well today. Not would more power to 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:25.080 them because it's absolutely unimaginable what they went through. So 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:30.280 the trial winds down, the jury do they go out 0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:31.480 to a room to deliberate. 0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:33.520 They go out to deliberate, and they come out to 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:34.400 give their decision. 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:35.520 How long did that take? 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:36.560 They took a day? 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:38.320 And what did they say? 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:40.520 And they say, every one of them has to give 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:43.800 their own reasons. They had the lead jura, but all 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:46.320 of them asked to give the individual reasons by the judge. 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:49.560 So they sturned up. The first one says they've looked 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.400 at the case, They've realised new investigations is done, there's 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.960 a blind focus on getting a conviction, and I'm innocent. 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:00.200 And the second one scond. 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:03.639 And one same story. No investigations or done by the police. 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:06.080 In fact, what came out very clearly in all their 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:09.160 assessment was that there was no investigation that had been done. 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:12.040 There was a blind focus, a decision had been made, 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:15.480 predetermined decision that this guy had to go to prison. 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.640 So they looked through the evidence, they asked, I mean, 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:22.439 they were bewildered. They said, the police lands are guided. 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.439 Something like this cannot happen at a police station. And 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:28.480 if I told it happened, then the police could have 0:26:28.520 --> 0:26:30.840 arrested those people at that time or that person at 0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:33.880 other time. The crazy thing is that I was child, 0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:37.199 my child, she reads pete with others, not before the 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:40.399 court committed the offense. And I took that as a 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:43.000 insult because my wife has been raped and madered and 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:44.840 he told me I took people to go rape my 0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:48.080 wife outside a corps station. You know, that was the 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:51.479 biggest insult to me. But I just said I have 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:54.120 to look through this. I mean, I could have gone 0:26:54.160 --> 0:26:56.520 crazy at that point. I could have gone very mad 0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:59.320 at that point, but I realized that I was fire. 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:03.040 I had a system that was so rigged, pre rigged 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:06.520 to make people suffer injustices. So I just pray, don't 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:08.159 asked God give me the strength to go through this. 0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:12.480 So I didn't even realize that until now. They claimed 0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:15.080 that you brought other people with you. 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:18.520 Yeah, they said, I was child the charge she treats 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:20.360 Pete with others, not before the court. 0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:22.359 Right, I get it, but that is not before the credit. Yeah, 0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:24.439 you would be the only person who's ever done that 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:26.119 in the history of the world if that was the case. 0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:32.399 But wife to be raped and murdered by you and others, 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:35.080 whoever those others were, which were unnamed, as of course 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:38.479 they were imaginary. You all had the same great idea 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:41.840 to bring her to the police station, right, total madness. 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:45.080 So the jurors and this is where it's supposed to end, right, 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:46.159 this is where you're supposed to go home. 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:49.200 Jurors make their decision, and I say, you know, I 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:51.600 sat down. I had seen the drama that was going on, 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:54.320 and I said, because the jurors picked for the public. 0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:58.159 Whatever decision they'll make, I live with it. So to me, 0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:00.320 my trail ended the day the juris to up and 0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:04.240 said you are innocent, all of them unanimously. That is 0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:07.719 when I felt I'm vindicated. Anything that happened after that 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:08.480 didn't matter to me. 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.560 But did you You had no indication that anything else 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:13.200 could happen? I mean, did you have any idea? 0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:14.960 At that point, I expected the judge to do the 0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:17.080 right thing. And then he told me to come from 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:19.320 my judgment. On the day of the judgment, he didn't 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:23.080 treat the judgment. He asked for two more weeks. I 0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:25.800 come back again. He postponed it again for the second time. 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:28.359 And that was a process. If a judge wanted to 0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:31.040 be bribed, he would always push your judgment forward so 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:33.439 that you go bribing before he releases you. And I 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:35.080 wasn't going to do that. I told my family, I 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:37.640 told my friends, I don't have any money. We've used 0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:39.960 our money in the legal briefs, but we are not 0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:42.480 going to bribe anyone. No one should bribe anyone for this. 0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:46.320 But the problem was, even if you had bribed him, 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:48.400 he was being bribed already by the other side. 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:50.040 By the other side. He could have taken from both sides. 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:52.160 It would have been just the highest bidder. Right, It's 0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:53.760 really it's almost like a justice auction. 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:56.240 Yeah, I mean back then it was a justice auction. 0:28:56.400 --> 0:29:00.200 Kenya has gone through a very tough moment. Thanks to 0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:03.360 the new president, President Quebuck in two thousand and three, 0:29:03.520 --> 0:29:06.840 the justice system had a complete overhaul. They had to 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.000 turn everything upside down in a good way, in a 0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:12.320 good way, in a positive way, and we had to 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:14.800 start fighting these things in prison. The good thing is 0:29:14.840 --> 0:29:17.360 that the judge who came up in twenty ten in 0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:20.600 the new constitution had been detained by the former government 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:23.600 that convicted me. He had been detained in prison in 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:26.080 the same prison I was in on political reasons, so 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:28.360 he knew what people are going through in prison. And 0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:30.840 he used to tell us pet and make colleagues just 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:34.200 write petitions, literate and bring them to court. Will make 0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:34.800 a decision. 0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:38.960 Let's get to the verdict. So finally, after weeks of 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:44.560 delays and delays and more delays and presumably more payoffs 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:46.840 and bribes, and him waiting to see if your family's 0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:48.920 going to come up with even more money or whatever. 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:52.360 You finally brought back to court for the decision, which 0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:54.360 again would seem like, at least in our justice system, 0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:55.480 and I think in most of the world, there is 0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:57.480 no decision have to be made because the judge doesn't 0:29:57.480 --> 0:30:12.880 get to overrule the journey. So you come back. Finally, 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:15.800 this ordeal is presumably coming to an end, but actually 0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:16.560 it was just beginning. 0:30:16.840 --> 0:30:19.240 It was just beginning because okay, the judge makes the 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:21.960 final decision. But the law in Kenyon says, the case 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.480 that had been established stated that in the event he 0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:28.360 goes against the decision of the jury, he's supposed to 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:30.760 give reasons. He's supposed to say I don't agree with 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:33.200 them because of one to three. In this case, it 0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:37.560 was nothing. Instead, he wrote into his judgment things that 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:39.160 were not even mentioned it court. 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:43.880 So he was actually not only the judge in this case, 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:45.520 he was also playing the prosecutor. 0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:47.600 He was playing the prosecutor, and he has a prosecutor 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:49.760 all passed by the way. He was a prosecutor before 0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:52.880 his appointed the judge, and I was a prosecutor in 0:30:52.880 --> 0:30:55.000 one of the darkest moments of Kenya's history. 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:58.000 Okay, so you come back. He started reading off all 0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:01.800 these supposing new information, new lives, new fairy tales, with 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.640 whatever you want to call it. And then he says 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:05.160 you're guilty. 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:07.960 Yeah, he says you're guilty. You're sentenced to death by 0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:10.240 hanging until certified did by a medical doctor. 0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:11.360 Wow. 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:14.680 And so Georgie is sitting down there. I'm sitting on 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:16.960 a raised platform there. Our coats are not like yours, 0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:21.320 they're more British. So the suspects of the accused persons 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:24.000 sit on a higher pedestal in the dock, and the 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:26.240 witnesses sitting on the other side, and the lawyers sit 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:29.360 down there. So Georgie looks back at me, joined my 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:33.000 lawyer and I look at George and instead of crying, 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:35.920 we laughed at the absurdity of it all. We were 0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:39.320 so disgusted, we just laughed. We couldn't believe what we 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:44.600 were hearing him read. But my family everyone broke down. 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:46.840 We're not laughing because we were happy. We were laughing 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:49.680 because we're disgusted. You're so mad that the only thing 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:51.720 you can do is laugh, you know, that's the only 0:31:51.760 --> 0:31:55.440 way you can placate yourself. And then my mom was there. 0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:58.520 She had believed in the justice system. She was totally broken. 0:31:58.760 --> 0:32:02.360 My mom hasn't recovered up to twenty years later, she's 0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:04.960 here to recover from that. She's yet to recover from 0:32:05.000 --> 0:32:08.080 the betrayal of two thousand and one, which is seventeen 0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:13.120 years ago, and my mom broke down my siblings. People 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:16.720 just got confused because it never had the death sentence pronounced, 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:18.760 and then they thought maybe that I'm going to be 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:21.840 hang the next day. And the media is all there. 0:32:21.840 --> 0:32:24.800 They're all chasing this jewsy story. He had called them, 0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:27.120 that the circus judge had already called them to be there, 0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:30.000 all of them. So they're all following up on this 0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:33.240 jewsy story. They want to take pics. And I said 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:35.520 one thing, I don't want to see my kids in 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:38.160 my kids to see me in handcuffs. I always believed 0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:39.640 I was going to see my kids, even though he 0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:42.239 had mentioned that I was supposed to be killed. I 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:44.640 said one thing, I'll not allow my kids to see 0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:47.400 me in handcuffs. Any picture of mine for my kids 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:51.000 to see me in handcuffs. So the media was out there. 0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:53.840 We leave the court room. He just tells me to 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:57.440 take out you're going to appeal immediately. And so as 0:32:57.440 --> 0:32:59.800 we're leaving the court room. The media has been told 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:01.360 to and on one side they were waiting to take 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:06.360 pictures and just being tiation because I had my family 0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:09.840 and friends. I just tell them walk beside me, and 0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:11.719 as we get out of the court, they block off 0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:14.640 the media. I walk on the other side. The media 0:33:14.680 --> 0:33:16.800 is on the other side trying to break through to 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:18.960 come take photos of me, and then me I walk 0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:20.880 down very fast to go to the cells. And that 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:24.840 was it. I'm taken to prison, not to the same 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:27.720 prison had spent the previous nighting because I came to 0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:30.160 court ready to go home. I'm not taking to the 0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:31.480 maximum security prison. 0:33:32.320 --> 0:33:33.239 And what was that like? 0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:36.800 It was crazy because the transport first would tell you 0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:38.680 that things are not the same. We will never be 0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:42.160 the same again. We had trucks. We didn't have buses 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:45.840 as we do have in KENYAA. So these trucks had 0:33:45.920 --> 0:33:51.000 two compartments at their air and two small benches wooden benches, 0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.240 and a small truck would carry more than one hundred inmates, 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:56.480 so you're packed. You had to stand. For a tall 0:33:56.520 --> 0:33:59.240 person like me, I had to bend and just standing 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:01.640 in this truck with one hundred other people plus the 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:06.440 awarders in that track and you just pray that you 0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:09.400 reach wherever you're going because there are small holes at 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.839 the top that's supposed to bring ventilation, ventilation holes. They're 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:17.120 no windows. It's just a metal cage. It's like a cage, 0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:20.480 let me use the word a cage. And so the 0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:23.319 journey is long. We are ever at the prison, the 0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:28.360 maximum security prison, at night around eight o'clock. So who's 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:32.360 these person who's been brought in a meeting new people 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:34.399 for the first time. All the cops want to know 0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.960 about my case. Everyone is asking many questions which I'm 0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:40.919 not answering, of course, because I'd learned how to live 0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:44.440 with people. By that time, I totally lost trust in 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:49.000 humanity after what happened to me, and I just didn't 0:34:49.040 --> 0:34:51.479 want to start talking to anyone. I didn't know whether 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.799 they were asking me questions. So I was processed through 0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:58.279 the system, then taken to the cells. 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:00.719 And that's all block your own cell. 0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:05.160 No, I was sharing that cell, the eight by seven 0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:07.560 foot cell, with thirteen other guys. 0:35:07.600 --> 0:35:11.040 What eight by seven foot seal with thirteen other guys 0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:14.200 and I'm six four, Yes you are as You're not 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:19.440 a small guy, larger than life character in many many ways. 0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:22.839 So there's thirteen other guys. So you you, I mean, 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:24.279 could you even lie down in there? 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:26.720 You can't lie down? You sit now around in a corner. 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:28.600 I mean, you just have to agree on yourself. One 0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:32.000 thing I loved about prison is that inmates really agree 0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:34.640 on things as a unit. In Kenya, we have no choice. 0:35:34.680 --> 0:35:36.399 We have no choice, so we say if we get 0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:38.480 in with our shoes or with our slippers, we could 0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:41.080 easily get sick because there was no water so to speak. 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:44.040 There was no running water at that time, and food 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:47.280 was not guaranteed at that time because even the jailer 0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:49.320 at that time was very corrupt, and it was always 0:35:49.360 --> 0:35:51.600 ensuring that we had a mil one or the other 0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:54.279 day into alternating days so that in between he would 0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:56.480 know what to do with it. But when we went 0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:58.920 to prison at that time, we agreed, okay, we are 0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:02.160 many in the small cell, so you leave your sleepers outside, 0:36:02.239 --> 0:36:05.120 you get in, you put them back to back. Then 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:06.840 we had made somewhere to hook them so that you 0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:09.800 don't get diseases. In the cell. We had a bucket 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:11.600 toilet that had to be hung on the door because 0:36:11.600 --> 0:36:14.120 there was no space to put it down there, and 0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:17.319 we slept side by side. There was no blankets back 0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:19.960 then nineteen ninety eight to two and one. There are 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:23.000 no blankets in our prisons. So if you manage to 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:25.160 get a small piece to cover yourself, fine, But it 0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:27.279 was so hot in there because you're thirteen grown up 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:30.520 men in a small cell or fourteen in that case, 0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:34.439 and then it's so hot. I mean, the next guy 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:38.480 is literally on your skin. We had lots of skin diseases. 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:40.640 Likely I never got stick for the eighteen years old 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:41.560 in prison. 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:42.360 A miracle. 0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:45.880 So basically like sorry, I mean on my side, I 0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:48.120 had I had marks on my side here, you know, 0:36:48.239 --> 0:36:51.200 on my hip because you sleep on this hip. It's 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:54.640 not a carpeted flow. It's a terrazzo flow. The guys 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:57.000 on this side you all face right. The guys on 0:36:57.040 --> 0:36:59.759 the other side face left. So when you want to turn, 0:36:59.800 --> 0:37:01.600 your prog on what time to turn so that the 0:37:01.640 --> 0:37:03.600 other guy is gone the other side you get turned 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:04.680 to the other side. 0:37:04.680 --> 0:37:06.839 Right, so literally like sardines. Then you have to turn 0:37:07.000 --> 0:37:09.000 at the same time, which is and by then you 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:11.000 have cramps, and it's got to be cramps. 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:13.319 But after two weeks you get used to it and 0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:17.360 your body becomes immune and mutant. You just go with 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:19.480 the motions, you become robotic. 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:22.200 And you would be allowed out of the cell thirty 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:24.239 minutes in a day. Thirty minutes in a day, yeah, 0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:24.919 if at all. 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:28.880 That's only Monday to Friday. But from Saturday and Sunday, 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:32.480 oh no, nothing, nothing, nothing unless you had a visitor, 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:34.960 then you'd got So it was a privilege. Actually, when 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:36.719 I came home, there's a day just stood out some 0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:40.080 and so the sunset for the first time in eighteen years, 0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:43.400 and they just stood and watched the sun got and 0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:45.600 I was like, this is what I was denied for 0:37:45.640 --> 0:37:48.920 so long, something I never saw in prison. I never 0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:50.440 go to see the sunset for eighteen. 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:56.640 Years, right, because you're walkinglo and so how the hell 0:37:56.680 --> 0:37:59.759 did you maintain your sanday? I mean there must be 0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:03.080 guys in there literally losing their mind, because I mean, 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:05.400 how can you put people that close together and so 0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:08.680 hot and so uncomfortable physically and no room to move 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:10.640 and no room to do anything? You have? Did you 0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:12.520 have any books in there or anything else? 0:38:13.000 --> 0:38:16.120 Yeah? I could get books. Newspapers were illegal, were prohibited 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:20.040 at that time. Later on they were allowed. But initially 0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:22.799 I loved reading, and I'm a man of faith, so 0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:27.080 I really kept to the faith. And the good thing 0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:30.080 with people were in their faith, you'd be allowed sometimes 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:33.080 to go out more than once, so thirty minutes in 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:35.560 the morning, thirty minutes in the afternoon, and many people 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:40.319 actually came to the faith just because he wanted that opportunity. 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:43.480 I just learned how to keep my head underwater, not 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:47.760 to stick out, not to ruffle feathers, but not also 0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:51.000 to walk on with anything. I mean, I became a 0:38:51.080 --> 0:38:54.120 voice to many of my colleagues in prison. They appointed 0:38:54.120 --> 0:38:56.520 me as one of their leaders, so I would speak out. 0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:59.080 We said, I told the officer in charge of the 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:01.160 one and in charge, we want to do things differently. 0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:04.480 We're not going to be confrontational because we are going 0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:06.839 to write memoranda. If we have an issue, we want 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.480 to write a memoranda, call us the people involved, and 0:39:09.520 --> 0:39:11.800 then we face it with them. So we started writing 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:16.600 memoranda about congestion, about torture, about every other thing that 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:20.040 you could imagine. There. We brought issues because we realized 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:22.600 that the government was giving enough money for our food, 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:25.239 which food we are not getting. So we said, this 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:28.160 is not the problem of the government. It's an institutional problem. 0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:31.799 So we demanded for what was rightfully ours. Luckily, by 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:34.200 that time the new president had come in the prisons 0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:37.960 department had moved from punishment to correction and rehabilitation. 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:41.239 I mean, you're a big guy. You're much bigger than 0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:45.279 an average person. So getting so little nourishment in there, 0:39:45.320 --> 0:39:47.719 did you lose a ton of weight? No? 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:50.120 I think I could have lost some weight, but I 0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:52.120 always believe it's all in the mind. I learned to 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.040 appreciate whatever I have. I don't go for the big 0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:57.520 things in life. I just try to live within my 0:39:57.640 --> 0:40:00.480 jacket and just appreciate every little thing I get. Are 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:03.160 very appreciative, by the way, and I work within that budget. 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:06.439 The good thing is that by doing that, I don't 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:08.840 stress myself out like I can't get this and this 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:11.839 and that. I just live and appreciate whatever it is. 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:13.959 And contrary to what you might think, I don't eat much. 0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:17.239 Wow, that's amazing. Well that's a good thing for that too. 0:40:17.280 --> 0:40:20.200 So were you in that same prison for eighteen years. No. 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:23.640 After one month, I was taken to another security prison 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:27.360 in a place called Naivasha. Now that's the biggest prison 0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:29.440 in the country. In fact, I think in East Africa. 0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:33.279 It's massive, it's got a football field inside it. But 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:37.319 that's one prison that's feared by many people because the 0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:40.799 wind blows from the Rift valley into the prison and 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:43.440 so if you don't have anything to cover, you'd get cold, 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:48.319 you'd get tuberculosis. And if someone visits you the first time, 0:40:48.320 --> 0:40:50.560 they onlyn't want to come the second time because it 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:55.560 was so far removed from the road from the transport network. 0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.799 So it's one of the most feared prisons back then, 0:40:59.320 --> 0:41:02.839 but now it has the biggest school population of all 0:41:02.880 --> 0:41:08.680 prisons in Africa. Yeah, it's become a model institution. The 0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:11.160 new reforms that were brought by the Kenya Prison Service. 0:41:11.400 --> 0:41:14.360 They first accepted the admit mistakes. They had a paradegm 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:17.120 shift and we thank the former Vice president who was 0:41:17.160 --> 0:41:20.200 made in charge of the prison's docket. Prisons in Kenya 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:23.800 public institutions. So he said he wanted to see prisoners 0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:26.799 treated humanly. We started having that chance and that's how 0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:28.840 we started now getting more hours out in the sun. 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:33.160 Torture became outlawed and inmates had a chance to go 0:41:33.200 --> 0:41:36.600 to school, land skills, get visitors. We have an open 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:39.040 door police in our prisons in Kenya, and we could 0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:42.080 manage all that I learned at in prison. I started 0:41:42.280 --> 0:41:45.040 training my colleagues in art. I formed the organization I 0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:48.359 ran now while I was on death row, and we 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:52.640 started doing activities outside prison, but organizing from prison, and 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:55.040 people thought that we were so well funded. I didn't 0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:57.040 have any money. What I did was design T shirts, 0:41:57.239 --> 0:42:00.480 designed cards, sell them to my fellow inmates, sell them 0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:03.239 to the other guys out there, use those proceeds to 0:42:03.320 --> 0:42:06.480 run the crimes awareness campaigns. That word denounced it and 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:10.000 I just thank God because there was so much ownership 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:13.799 of the process that being in prison now didn't become 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:16.720 a bud and it became an opportunity to invent myself 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:19.520 and to find myself. I forgive the people who took 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:21.560 me there. I removed all the beatterness and said, I 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:23.760 have to live my life and if that's the purpose 0:42:23.840 --> 0:42:25.840 I have, and since I believe I'll go home. At 0:42:25.920 --> 0:42:28.279 one point every single day I believe I was going 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:30.520 to go home, then I had to start doing things differently. 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:35.759 Well, that's just I don't even know what to say. 0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:40.839 I mean, it's so remarkable that you exist in this 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:44.560 state of the only way I can describe it as grace. 0:42:45.120 --> 0:42:47.160 I've never heard anybody describe it quite the way you 0:42:47.239 --> 0:42:50.759 just did. But it's always so remarkable for me just 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:53.480 to be in the presence of somebody like you who 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:56.000 has found this. You know what, I guess you could 0:42:56.000 --> 0:42:58.680 call it the meaning of life which allowed you to survive, really, 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.200 because otherwise you probably would have died in there. 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:03.640 I totally agree there. I mean, in prison you have 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:06.000 number one, you have to let go. You have to 0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:08.040 let go of all bitterness. You have to let go 0:43:08.160 --> 0:43:10.720 of assuming that life is the same, and you justus 0:43:10.840 --> 0:43:14.080 and recalibrate through that life. You don't become part of 0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:17.279 that life. It's there, but you live your life in 0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:20.040 that situation so that it doesn't get really into you 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:23.080 and you feel like it's a punishment. You get to 0:43:23.160 --> 0:43:25.919 learn to coexist with your fellow people. I mean, it's 0:43:25.960 --> 0:43:27.919 like a United Nations. You're meeting all kinds of people 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.000 that may some very wonderful people. In prison. It's not 0:43:31.120 --> 0:43:33.479 just about the struggles of being in prison. Wrong Fully 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:36.040 convicted people are going through what's out here. There are 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:38.720 worse prisons out here than what we go through in prison. 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:44.080 People addicted and close down to drugs in their own world, 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:46.640 they can't come out of that. My prayer always when 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:47.960 I work with the youth to get them out of 0:43:47.960 --> 0:43:51.040 crimes and drugs is that they just find purpose wherever there. 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:53.879 So that's what I started doing in prison. You don't 0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:55.640 believe this, is Jason, but when you're on death row, 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.840 when we're getting that small amount of food, we mobilized 0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:01.960 all the fifty two thousand inmates in Kenya to forget 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:05.040 their meals and to donate to people in Kenya who 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:07.760 were dying of hunger. And people like, are you guys 0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:09.520 doing this so that you can be reacent? We said, no, 0:44:10.120 --> 0:44:12.320 we are eating food in prison and we're not working. 0:44:12.360 --> 0:44:14.799 We're just sleeping. We eat and sleep, so why can't 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:17.719 we just do something different? And we came together as 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:20.000 inmates and I was taken from prison. That's the first 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:21.880 time I got out to walk in the streets of 0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:24.520 Nairobi without handcuffs, and I was taken to the office 0:44:24.520 --> 0:44:26.600 of the Vice President. I made the donation on behalf 0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:29.960 of my colleagues and from there we just felt we 0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:32.640 had to grow. So the different programs that were brought 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:35.440 the leadership of the Kenya prison service helped us change that. 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:39.239 The judiciary was revamped, the corrupt guys were taken out 0:44:39.800 --> 0:44:43.080 with seeing changes, and now we were using the law 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:46.040 now to help overturn most of these things. I was 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:49.520 writing appeals and petitions for my colleagues in prison last year, 0:44:49.560 --> 0:44:53.200 the year before I left, that was twenty sixteen. I 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:56.240 got six gays out of death row and I hadn't 0:44:56.280 --> 0:44:59.640 even cleared my law decree, you know, But that was 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:02.040 just we learned how to write those things after so 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:04.960 many years. You just learned naturally to some of this stuff. 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:07.839 Look at the evidence, look at the case. Slow, make 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:11.080 your presentations in court. Crazy enough, Some of the cases 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:14.680 I've used in my pleadings were influenced by what the 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:17.480 Nuisance Project is doing in America. I've always been a 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:20.120 great fan of the Nuisance Project. They intend to set 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:21.720 up something similar in my country. 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:24.440 You studied the law, well, you got your college degree 0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:27.200 in prison, and then you studied the law, and now 0:45:27.239 --> 0:45:30.840 you're about to graduate from the University of London Law School, 0:45:31.440 --> 0:45:33.799 which is a part of the story that we have 0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:36.319 to get to. But before that, how did you get 0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:38.400 released or. 0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:42.520 In twenty sixteen August, my son was going to graduate. 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:45.640 They were clearing the university. And one thing that had 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:49.200 really killed my mood in prison was that I was 0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:52.280 not able to be there for my kids' primary school graduation, 0:45:52.480 --> 0:45:55.520 high school graduation, and now they had their final graduation 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:58.239 in university. And I felt that if I was not 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:01.359 going to attend that, then had no business getting out 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:04.520 of prison. It came to that. That's when I was depressed, 0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:07.040 just to feel that my kids had grown without me. 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.040 They had not seen me, they had had visits from 0:46:09.080 --> 0:46:12.000 other families, they'd seen other kids being visited, and they 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:15.200 couldn't have their dad there. They couldn't tell their colleagues 0:46:15.239 --> 0:46:17.640 in school that their dad is in prison for allegedly 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:21.160 murdering their mum. I mean, I felt that those kids 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:23.280 dissolved me to be there with them for their graduation. 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.520 So I took a lip of faith and wrote to 0:46:25.560 --> 0:46:28.400 the President of the country, President Kinata, and told him, 0:46:28.520 --> 0:46:31.840 your excellency, I was chilged with this offense of murder. 0:46:32.600 --> 0:46:35.960 I still maintained my innocence. I don't agree with the decision, 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:40.200 but as a law abiding citizen, I respect it. And 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:43.520 so the position is that my son, my kids are 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:45.319 going to graduate and I need to be home with 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:49.120 them for their graduation, So could you use your prerogative 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:50.320 to set me free? 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:53.600 And he did, he did in October. How did you 0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:54.720 get the news? 0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:58.239 I was assisting? Like in prison, I was always in 0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:01.640 the documentation office, helping appeals and process the appeals for 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:04.879 the inmates. And then those is breaking news. So one 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:08.280 of the awardens in the office said, Pitt, something has happened. 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:10.880 Guys are being released. I mean, the president has just 0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:14.279 signed an order releasing guys, and we know you must 0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:16.920 be in there. And then I was like, people have 0:47:16.960 --> 0:47:20.560 been released before, but have never been there. I mean 0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:22.560 every other year people tell me, Peter, you're going home. 0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:24.680 You don't deserve to be here. But it never happened. 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:26.960 But I just felt in my spirit at that time 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:31.200 like the time has come. So I left the documentation 0:47:31.320 --> 0:47:34.560 office and went to my cell. By the time I 0:47:34.600 --> 0:47:36.879 was leaving, I was living in my own cell, though 0:47:36.880 --> 0:47:39.759 it didn't have a toilet, but it was a different block. 0:47:39.800 --> 0:47:42.120 We're only eleven of us in that cell. It's a 0:47:42.160 --> 0:47:44.040 privilege I was given by the office and child. So 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:47.520 I went down to my cell and just prayed and 0:47:47.560 --> 0:47:49.880 told God, if it's your will, let it be done, 0:47:50.400 --> 0:47:52.879 and I just hang on there. Then an hour later, 0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:56.120 the Commissioner General of Prisons drives in with the paw 0:47:56.160 --> 0:48:00.200 of massy staff with this team. So I'm told you 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:04.080 have been called outside, so working out. The commissioner tells me, 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:06.400 you know what, he wrote a letter to the present 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:08.839 and he said you can go home. And it's such 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.120 an amiable person. He talks like it's just a joke. 0:48:11.719 --> 0:48:13.600 So first I'm like, ah, but when I look at 0:48:13.600 --> 0:48:16.040 the team he has with, then I have reason to believe. 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:18.000 After that, we are called to the hall and the 0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:21.480 names are read out, and when we're just about to leave, 0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:23.200 I called my daughter. I went to the office and 0:48:23.239 --> 0:48:27.600 called my daughter and told her, Whitney, I'm going home. 0:48:27.640 --> 0:48:30.320 I'm coming home, And she was like, Dad, you always 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:32.399 like cracking jokes. I mean, I don't trust what you're 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:36.160 telling me, so let someone else tell me. So I 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:39.040 give the cops the phone and tell them tell this 0:48:39.200 --> 0:48:42.040 girl I've been released. And she says, no, I'll only 0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:45.080 believe when I see you. That's how stubborn my daughter is. 0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:47.840 And then she she goes like, okay, Dad, if I 0:48:47.840 --> 0:48:50.239 see you, then i'll believe. But I'm not telling anyone. 0:48:50.280 --> 0:48:55.000 And then the prison ward and tells us Pete and colleagues. 0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:57.480 You know, this is late in the evening. It's raining heavily. 0:48:57.920 --> 0:48:59.960 We'd like this thing to be covered by the media. 0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:02.480 So do you guys just mind spending an extra night 0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:05.399 in prison? Then you go in the morning if you will, 0:49:05.640 --> 0:49:08.080 because it's for us sake that we don't know if 0:49:08.120 --> 0:49:11.040 we'll see you guys again, and we just wanted this 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:14.319 story to come out, so we indulge them and to 0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:14.960 go and sleep. 0:49:16.320 --> 0:49:18.680 And so he spent an extra night in prison. 0:49:18.920 --> 0:49:22.320 I spent an extra night after release. Did you sleep, No, 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:25.080 I slept. I slept very deeply. I was just thankful. 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:26.920 I listened to a lot of music. I slept late. 0:49:27.000 --> 0:49:29.400 I slept at a round three. I just listened to 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:32.040 lots of music because I had my laptop for studies 0:49:32.080 --> 0:49:34.560 in my room. And then I went to bed at 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:36.480 a round three a m. So I woke up late. 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:39.480 The other guys, I think they didn't believe, because they 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:41.279 woke up at six. By six, they were in the 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:44.239 office like we want to go home now, you know. 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:47.560 So even just the moment the doors were opened out 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:50.520 of the documentary office, asking to go home, and so 0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:53.239 my mom came in. My mom came in with those 0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:55.040 are one of the pictures I look at, and she 0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:58.800 just hugged me and broke down. And I did not 0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:02.760 to handle my mom crying. I mean it was deep. 0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:08.080 Then she started singing, thanking God, crying just on my chest, 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:10.759 and I was just trying to reassure them that also, okay, 0:50:10.800 --> 0:50:14.520 it's all over. But she still had this heavy hat, 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:17.600 like why did it have to happen? For eighteen years? 0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:21.879 She lost her good health because of that depression, and 0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:24.600 as we speaking right now, yeah, she's struggling with her health. 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:26.320 But then God, she's strong. 0:50:27.719 --> 0:50:31.520 So then they take you and your mom and they 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:32.680 and they. 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:35.799 Passed through the office of the African Prisons Project just 0:50:35.840 --> 0:50:39.560 to say hi. And then after that we go over 0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:42.400 to my sister's place, who had come with my mom. 0:50:42.920 --> 0:50:47.160 And now my daughter still doesn't come. She still doesn't 0:50:47.160 --> 0:50:50.080 believe that I've been released. And I've called both my 0:50:50.160 --> 0:50:53.680 daughter and my son. So as I'm leaving because I 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:55.480 had to take a de tour and we used a 0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:57.760 long route because of traffic, it was around three o'clock, 0:50:58.840 --> 0:51:00.800 I call a friend of mine very close friend of 0:51:00.840 --> 0:51:04.480 mine and a mental of mine, and I tell him, Carol, 0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:07.840 you know what, I've been looking for you, but I 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:10.200 don't know where to find you. So they know I 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.080 was looking for your son because your son was supposed 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:14.040 to go for an interview and I can't trace him. 0:51:14.400 --> 0:51:16.399 So I tell him, Oh, I'll tell him I'm going 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:17.680 to meet him. Then i'll tell him the next me, 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:20.480 where are you at? Said, I'm home, Like, come on, 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:23.920 stop kidding me, because people think when I was in prison, 0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:26.480 I liked cracking jokes just to keep people's moods on 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:29.120 the app So he thinks it's another wild joke again, 0:51:29.360 --> 0:51:33.480 so he invites me to his office. Nice nice catch 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:35.880 up is a childhood friend. After that, you go to 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:39.000 my sister's place. Then by that time, my daughter started 0:51:39.040 --> 0:51:42.600 believing because now she's getting calls from different people, and 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:45.319 she joins me at my sister's place where my son 0:51:45.440 --> 0:51:48.359 was staying. My sister is my hero, Christine. She took 0:51:48.400 --> 0:51:51.520 good care of those kids for a while, for more 0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:54.760 than eight years, you know, through high school teenage staff, 0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:56.839 and she just took good care of them. And she's 0:51:56.840 --> 0:51:59.160 just sickling. She doesn't have the best of health, but 0:51:59.239 --> 0:52:02.279 She took them in like our own and really saw 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:03.680 them through what they were going through. 0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:06.120 What was it like when you saw your kids for 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:09.080 the first time in eighteen years as a free man? 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:11.560 I mean, did you beat them both together at the 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:12.200 same time? 0:52:12.560 --> 0:52:14.239 Now you know, I wasn't seeing them for the first time, 0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:18.000 and the prison is in Kenya. When the laws were changed, 0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:20.719 we editated for a law to be enacted called the 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:24.279 Persons Deprived of Liberty Act, and in that act we 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.800 have parental visits, so four times in a year by law, 0:52:29.320 --> 0:52:31.719 parents and visitors and friends can just come and hang 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:33.440 out the way you know, you just hang out. You 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:36.040 bring food from home, you see to make food from home. 0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:38.240 You come and sit on with the family and staff 0:52:38.640 --> 0:52:42.239 a quality time. And other than that, you can also 0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:45.080 apply on special days like when my daughter came to 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:47.800 introduce her. Then boyfriend told me that I want to 0:52:47.840 --> 0:52:50.279 introduce someone to you, and I asked for permission from 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:51.880 the off Saint Gege. We were given a room we 0:52:51.960 --> 0:52:55.000 just hang out. So I'd already seen them from the 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:58.600 time they were after the first eight years when they 0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:01.160 had been told that I was dead. I didn't tell 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:02.879 you that they grew up knowing that I was dead. 0:53:02.920 --> 0:53:05.520 For the first eight years, the identity had been changed. 0:53:06.120 --> 0:53:07.879 So when I met my daughter for the first time, 0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:12.080 my country recognized after eight years, and then when they 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:14.160 went to first from ninth grade, now I started seeing them. 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:15.520 They could come to prison and see me. 0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:17.200 Wait, so they grew up thinking you were dead. 0:53:17.400 --> 0:53:18.239 I told her I was dead. 0:53:18.719 --> 0:53:19.960 Wow by who? 0:53:20.400 --> 0:53:22.080 But the very people said I should be locked in 0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:26.600 the in laws Wow. But the good thing. I thank 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:28.239 my mom in law because she's the one who told 0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:30.840 me Pete, I'm sorry, but I told your kids that 0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:33.320 you're dead, and they told her, Mom, I have nothing 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:35.600 against you. I love you just like my mom. I 0:53:35.600 --> 0:53:38.360 don't always love you. Whatever you did, I don't know 0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:40.440 why you did it. I have nothing against you. And 0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:42.360 we just have to live their life. God as the 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:43.120 loved us to live. 0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:47.720 Amazing. So I do want to talk about the African 0:53:47.719 --> 0:53:53.120 Prisons Project. I was very honored and humbled to be 0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:56.840 asked by the founder of the African Prisons Project, Alexander McLean, 0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:00.919 to come over to Uganda give a ted X talk 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:05.080 inside a maximum security prison in Kampala. And of course 0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:08.120 it was during that trip that you and I met, 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:11.760 So can you share with our listeners what the African 0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:15.960 Prison Project is and what it does and how you're 0:54:16.000 --> 0:54:17.880 involved in it. Oh. 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:20.760 Yeah, The African Prisons Project was started ten years ago 0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:23.120 by Alexander. I met Alexander when I was in prison, 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:26.239 and just about that time, I'd been invited by the 0:54:26.320 --> 0:54:29.960 Judicial Service Commission to go give my views on behalf 0:54:29.960 --> 0:54:33.759 of the inmates about revamping the judicial system. And so 0:54:33.880 --> 0:54:37.319 when I went to that interview, I met all the 0:54:37.360 --> 0:54:40.360 top players in the criminal just system and the Attorney 0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:42.799 General then asked me are you a lawyer? Then I 0:54:42.840 --> 0:54:45.359 told him no, I'm not a lawyer. They told me, 0:54:45.600 --> 0:54:48.319 would you like to study law? I told him yeah, 0:54:48.360 --> 0:54:51.840 if you pay for me, sir, I'll gladly study. They said, Pete, 0:54:51.920 --> 0:54:54.120 we know what you have in you and we know 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:57.080 what your motivation is to study, so we are going 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.760 to help you. You're going to pay how for your fees? 0:55:01.920 --> 0:55:05.640 And Alexander said fine. At African Prisons Project, we don't 0:55:05.640 --> 0:55:07.440 have a budget for education right now. We're not doing 0:55:07.520 --> 0:55:10.120 legal education. But if you have someone to pay for 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:12.680 you have, I'll gladly pay for you the other half. 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:15.600 That's how we started off in twenty twelve, ive went 0:55:15.600 --> 0:55:18.640 to university through the African Prisons Project in twenty thirteen, 0:55:18.680 --> 0:55:20.120 I had to be taken from prison to go to 0:55:20.120 --> 0:55:22.560 my exams outside at the British Council, which is a 0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:25.560 great owner. Then the officer and Jire asked me, Pete, 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:26.920 why are you doing this thing alone? And there's so 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:29.880 many people are suffering and we need that help. And 0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:32.400 I got in touch with Alexander told him, come on, 0:55:32.480 --> 0:55:35.720 could you try and get more guests to be supported 0:55:35.760 --> 0:55:40.200 in this course, And later on more people joined the 0:55:40.280 --> 0:55:44.719 program and the inmates are being trained to be change makers. 0:55:44.800 --> 0:55:47.960 They're doing that in three prisons to the being trained 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:50.279 in law in Kenya three prisons in Uganda, I think 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:55.640 it's zero, and they're being trained in law and paralegal 0:55:56.239 --> 0:55:59.680 staff to assist their fellow inmates and also when they 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:02.760 go out since the Indealentin Society, so that's the project 0:56:02.760 --> 0:56:05.719 that goes there. After that. After my first year, I 0:56:05.800 --> 0:56:09.080 of course I graduated and after the first year, Alexander 0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:12.759 African Prisons Projects started paying for my fees at the 0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:17.040 University of London and the money because my gracious guest 0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:20.920 hosts or supporters Justice Isaac will still giving me four 0:56:21.000 --> 0:56:23.719 hundred dollars per year. I use that to pay for 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:25.879 my children's school fees, and that's how my children went 0:56:25.880 --> 0:56:29.120 through school amazing, because I'd exhausted all my funds at 0:56:29.200 --> 0:56:35.400 my trial. I mean so so, Justice Allah Isaac and 0:56:37.840 --> 0:56:42.640 Ahmed Nasir and Alexander helped get me on my feet 0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:45.319 to what I'm about to complete right now. 0:56:45.880 --> 0:56:49.279 So Alexander MacLean is a hero of mine. I'm a 0:56:49.320 --> 0:56:54.399 big supporter of his work, proudly. And he has been 0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:58.759 going for a long time now into one of the 0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:03.120 most hopeless places on Earth, some of the prisons in 0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:06.520 Kenya and Uganda, and I think other parts of Africa, 0:57:06.600 --> 0:57:09.320 and training people like Pete who's sitting in front of 0:57:09.360 --> 0:57:12.440 me now in the law so that they can do 0:57:12.560 --> 0:57:14.560 exactly what you did, which is find a way to 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:19.400 get yourself out and then in the process help other inmates. So, Pete, 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:23.520 this story is absolutely remarkable. The tradition here is that 0:57:23.600 --> 0:57:26.640 at the end of each episode I like to just 0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:30.440 turn the mic over to the guest, in this case, 0:57:30.520 --> 0:57:34.880 you to share any further thoughts that you have with 0:57:35.000 --> 0:57:35.640 our audience. 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:39.200 Oh, thank you, Jason, Thank you for having to New York. 0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:41.160 It's a great pleasure. I didn't know I would even 0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:44.040 get a visa to come here, but I'm grateful that 0:57:44.600 --> 0:57:47.280 it happened. And here I've met wonderful people. I enjoyed 0:57:47.280 --> 0:57:50.600 being with the Felex and Ruiz at the Gala. I 0:57:50.640 --> 0:57:52.320 just want to think the Innocence Project and I thank 0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:54.080 you and all the support you guys are given to 0:57:54.120 --> 0:57:56.960 that project. It's something also want to replicate in my country. 0:57:57.520 --> 0:58:01.520 I left the African Prisons Project and on my organization 0:58:01.600 --> 0:58:05.360 called the Youth Safety Our Initiative. We're focusing on getting 0:58:05.360 --> 0:58:08.960 the youth out of crime. We're focused on getting inmates 0:58:09.040 --> 0:58:11.960 or living prison to have something gainful to do. And 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:14.520 as I'm speaking to you right now, we've assisted fifteen 0:58:14.560 --> 0:58:18.120 of our inmates open bank accounts. So we're doing social 0:58:18.200 --> 0:58:22.160 enterprises and means of reducing recidivism. I had a double 0:58:22.160 --> 0:58:24.920 treat on twenty eighth of April, the same day I 0:58:24.960 --> 0:58:27.160 was granted a visa. I also got a call from 0:58:27.160 --> 0:58:29.920 one of the biggest landowners in our country, Cana, and 0:58:29.960 --> 0:58:32.760 we're going to put a re entry home there. Funds 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:35.520 allowing We're going to put the first halfway home in 0:58:35.600 --> 0:58:38.439 a big conservancy where you can also watch game. 0:58:39.200 --> 0:58:41.760 That's amazing. And the name of the organization again. 0:58:41.760 --> 0:58:43.520 Youth Safety Awareness Initiative, and. 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:45.360 How can people learn more and get involved. 0:58:45.600 --> 0:58:49.720 You can go to www dot crimec poor crime c 0:58:50.120 --> 0:58:57.560 poor c r Ime Sipoa crime Cyper means crime is 0:58:57.600 --> 0:59:01.560 not cool. So we used a local to reach out 0:59:01.600 --> 0:59:03.760 to the youth. That's what we started doing in prison. 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:06.520 And when we go to register, they said they cannot 0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:09.720 register the name crime as an angio. So we got 0:59:09.760 --> 0:59:13.000 Youth Safety Awareness Initiative. But the brand name which is 0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:15.760 registered brand name now is crime Syple. Crime is not. 0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:19.840 Cool, Okay, So the organization's Youth Safety Awareness Initiative. Go 0:59:19.880 --> 0:59:22.600 and visit and learn about this amazing work of this 0:59:22.720 --> 0:59:26.080 amazing man who's sitting here in front of me now, 0:59:26.440 --> 0:59:29.560 which is a miracle in and of itself, and join 0:59:29.640 --> 0:59:32.640 me in supporting this work because this is in fact 0:59:33.080 --> 0:59:36.000 a global problem. We focus a lot on America on 0:59:36.120 --> 0:59:40.240 wrongful conviction, but it's a global problem and there's so 0:59:40.360 --> 0:59:43.960 many people who need our help. So I want to 0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:48.200 thank you Pete Uko for coming on the show and 0:59:48.280 --> 0:59:52.560 sharing your thoughts and your amazing journey with our audience. 0:59:52.920 --> 0:59:54.280 Thank you Jesseon for hosting me. 0:59:54.480 --> 0:59:55.160 It's a pleasure. 1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:06.120 Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 1:00:06.160 --> 1:00:07.200 get your podcasts. 1:00:07.320 --> 1:00:08.240 It really helps. 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:11.520 And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and 1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:14.280 I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 1:00:14.280 --> 1:00:18.240 important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 1:00:18.360 --> 1:00:21.360 to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and 1:00:21.440 --> 1:00:24.560 get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor 1:00:24.600 --> 1:00:27.320 Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is 1:00:27.360 --> 1:00:30.840 by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 1:00:30.880 --> 1:00:34.000 to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on 1:00:34.040 --> 1:00:38.360 Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm 1:00:38.560 --> 1:00:41.720 is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association 1:00:42.040 --> 1:00:46.040 with Signal Company Number one