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Speaker 1: Oh, and where where is it hot? Isn't it hot?

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Speaker 1: It's hot, babe, it's summer. The goats are fine. Um.

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Speaker 1: This is Behind the Bastards, a podcast where every week

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Speaker 1: Sovie Liftman asks me if my goats are okay, and

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Speaker 1: I say, they seem to be fine. We shared them recently. Respectfully,

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Speaker 1: I care about your goats. Their goats, you know, they

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Speaker 1: they're good. They they're good at stuff. They're pretty hardy.

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Speaker 1: They've been good. That's why they've been goats for so long.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever known any goats? You've been friends with

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Speaker 1: the goats? Dr Cava Jota, are we starting your your introductions?

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Speaker 1: They're just like an inspiration to us low level podcasters.

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Speaker 1: It's like, uh, you know people who don't appreciate your intros.

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Speaker 1: They're like the same group of people that I thought

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Speaker 1: Miles Davis bitches brew was just sound. You know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? Thank you, thank you a lot of people

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Speaker 1: compare me to Miles Davis for many reasons. You're like

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Speaker 1: the Thurston More of podcasts introducing thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: We're not not quite as good as Ray Donk, who

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Speaker 1: pioneered the tuk tuk sound, but yeah, agreed, um and

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Speaker 1: to get to your question. I don't know goats, but

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Speaker 1: they were domesticated in Iran. That's a fun fact for you.

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Speaker 1: They were, Yeah, they were yea the Angora goats I

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Speaker 1: have Anga comes from. I think Ankawa. Um, so that

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Speaker 1: they're those are I guess Turkey Um, but yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that whole. Not as good, but it's not as good,

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Speaker 1: not as good. I don't have any I mean my

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Speaker 1: mine or Nigerian um some of them. Yeah, so they're beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I have I have there there. I would love to

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Speaker 1: get some Mernian goats one day. My goat. My goats

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Speaker 1: are very cosmopolitan, you know, they don't judge. Yeah, everyone

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Speaker 1: could use an Iranian goat. I suppose I would love

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Speaker 1: it Irani. So we are this is happening where this

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Speaker 1: is show. How how do you like? How do you

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Speaker 1: like medical experimentation on unconsenting I don't. I don't love it.

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Speaker 1: Not a fan, not a fan. Okay, yeah, that is

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Speaker 1: that is one of those things that is like currently

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Speaker 1: not supposed to be done. Um, we'll see give gifts

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Speaker 1: goes another couple of years, am I right? Uh? Good times.

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Speaker 1: So we should probably start by talking about what the

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Speaker 1: experiments that Dr Simms was conducting on these women actually

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Speaker 1: entailed because boy it's a little gruesome. Um. As we

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Speaker 1: noted last time, Sims bragg that there was never a

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Speaker 1: time in which he could not experiment on a subject

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Speaker 1: if he wanted to. But he also noted, quote, my

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Speaker 1: operations all failed. This went on not for one year,

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Speaker 1: but for two and three and even four years, and

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Speaker 1: failed operations in this case means a woman is cut

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Speaker 1: into and then gets no relief from the already unpleasant

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Speaker 1: symptoms that that she's dealing with. Right, So this is

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Speaker 1: a problem, right, absolutely brutal. Yeah, it's it's gnarly and obviously,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know, one of the things that is

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Speaker 1: a little more complete. At some point, some group of

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Speaker 1: people were going to need to endure surgeries that were

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Speaker 1: not pleasant in order to figure out how to do

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Speaker 1: this properly, which is the case with every surgical procedure, right,

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Speaker 1: some number of people are going to have to go

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Speaker 1: through that procedure when it is less polished and effective,

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Speaker 1: because like that's the way learning works, right, Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is, it is. But um it's always there's always

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Speaker 1: cares taken to do as little harm as you potentially

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Speaker 1: can Um. And it makes a big difference if you say, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm willing to endure this, you know, for the sake

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Speaker 1: of not just my own relief in the future, but

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Speaker 1: expanding the frontiers of human knowledge. Yeah, exactly, the whole

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Speaker 1: consent issue. It's like a lot of astronauts died and

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Speaker 1: and we celebrate how cool that whole period was for

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Speaker 1: us in the Soviet Union. But you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of them died, and it would be less of a

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Speaker 1: cool thing if, like they had been forced at gunpoint

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Speaker 1: to go risk their lives and spaceships. Right, probably movies

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Speaker 1: made about it. Yeah, Apollo One would be an even

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Speaker 1: more fucked up story if like those guys had been

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Speaker 1: led into that capsule at gunpoint before they burned alive

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Speaker 1: in there. Um yeah, um. But you know, again, it's

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Speaker 1: fundamentally noble and beautiful when human beings agree to endure

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Speaker 1: suffering to expand the frontiers of knowledge. It's really fucked

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Speaker 1: up when you forced them to do that. Um. I

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Speaker 1: don't think this is complicated ethics. I'm not a great

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Speaker 1: ethics guy, but I think this is pretty cut and dry. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: I will say Simms was a competent scientist, in the

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Speaker 1: technical sense. He was methodical with how he proceeded with

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Speaker 1: his experiments. UM. He started by having his own specialized

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Speaker 1: instruments made, which took him three months. The first of

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Speaker 1: these patients that he operated on was Lucy. She was

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Speaker 1: eighteen years old and she had just given birth several

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Speaker 1: months before this all started. Because again, when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about enslaved women, their primary economic value is in producing

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Speaker 1: more people that you can buy and sell um, and

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Speaker 1: so you you start that process as early as you can.

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Speaker 1: Uh Sims noted quote. The case was a very bad one.

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Speaker 1: The whole base of the bladder was gone and destroyed,

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Speaker 1: and a piece had fallen out, leaving an opening between

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Speaker 1: the vagina and the bladder at least two inches in

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Speaker 1: diameter or more. That was before the days of anesthetics,

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Speaker 1: and the poor girl on her knees bore the operation

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Speaker 1: with great heroism and bravery. I had about a dozen

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Speaker 1: doctors there to witness the series of experiments that I

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Speaker 1: expected to perform. All the doctors had seen my notes

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Speaker 1: and examined them and agreed that I was on the

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Speaker 1: eve of a great discovery. Every one of them was

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Speaker 1: interested in seeing me operate. Now this was initially true.

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Speaker 1: Simms's experiments were at first attended by many other doctors,

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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of enthusiasm for his work.

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Speaker 1: It is worth noting, though, that during this procedure his

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Speaker 1: patients were kept completely naked. They were asked to sit

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Speaker 1: on their knees and bend forward onto their elbows with

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Speaker 1: their heads resting in their hands. Lucy's surgery took about

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Speaker 1: an hour, and the doctors who viewed it reported that

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Speaker 1: she screamed and cried the entire time. Sims himself wrote

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Speaker 1: that Lucy's agony was extreme. Now, his fellow doctors were again,

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Speaker 1: these are guys who are fine with using enslaved people

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Speaker 1: as test subjects, but they were still horrified by how

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Speaker 1: brutal this was um and you know, the realities of

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Speaker 1: the surgery became kind of too unsettling for a lot

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Speaker 1: of them to ignore. Simms himself wrote, quote, I succeeded

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Speaker 1: in closing the fistula in about an hour's time, which

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Speaker 1: was considered to be very good work. I placed my

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Speaker 1: patient in bed, and it does seem to me, now,

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Speaker 1: since things were so simple and clear, that I was

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Speaker 1: exceedingly stupid at the beginning. Now in specific The stupid

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Speaker 1: thing he had done was he'd used a sponge to

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Speaker 1: draw away written from the bladder. Given the fact that

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Speaker 1: people didn't know properly about things like germs and sanitation

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Speaker 1: at this stage, he wound up giving her blood poisoning. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he had to do a bunch of stuff as

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Speaker 1: a result of this blood poisoning. He thought that she

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Speaker 1: was going to die from it. Um. She barely survived.

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Speaker 1: It takes her months to recover from this first operation. Um,

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Speaker 1: which isn't most I think most people would be like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not great, that's not how you want that to go.

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Speaker 1: Sims is encouraged though, because once she does survive and

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Speaker 1: he gets her on his table again, he sees that

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Speaker 1: the fistula he'd been working on it hasn't gone away,

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Speaker 1: but it's smaller than he was um now than it

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Speaker 1: was now since he can't operate on her again right

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Speaker 1: away because she nearly died, so he immediately follows up

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Speaker 1: by bringing Betsy up and and doing a different version

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Speaker 1: of the experiment on here, using a self retaining catheter

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Speaker 1: instead of a sponge. Now, this experiment failed to UM,

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Speaker 1: and Sims makes no note as to how painful it

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Speaker 1: was for his subject, and it's probably worth noting going

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Speaker 1: back to one of Sims's colleagues at this point to

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Speaker 1: again give a contrast for how other doctors were approaching

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Speaker 1: the same problem. In his defensive Sims, doctor L. L.

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Speaker 1: Wall argues that fish july were just so horrific that

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Speaker 1: we can assume consent on behalf of the women used

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Speaker 1: to subjects, even though they were enslaved, because who wouldn't

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Speaker 1: want to be cured of this quote? And this is

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Speaker 1: a wall. Consider the following description of what it was

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Speaker 1: like to be a woman with a vesico vaginal fishula

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Speaker 1: in the mid nineteenth century, given by Dr P. M.

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Speaker 1: Kolak at the annual meeting of the Georgia State Medical

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Speaker 1: Society in April eighteen fifty seven. The poor woman is

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Speaker 1: now reduced to a condition of the most piteous description

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Speaker 1: compared with which most of the other physical evils of

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Speaker 1: life sink into other insignificance. The urine passing into the

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Speaker 1: vagina as soon as it is secreted in flames and

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Speaker 1: excoriates its mucous lining, covering it with calcareous depositions, causing

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Speaker 1: extreme suffering. It trickles constantly down her thighs irritates the

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Speaker 1: integument with its acrid qualities, keeps her clothing constantly soaked. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and it makes are basically insupportable to herself and all

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Speaker 1: those around her. Um. So, in in pointing this out

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Speaker 1: and kind of harping in an extent about how unpleasant

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Speaker 1: these things are to endure, Wall is basically repeating the

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Speaker 1: argument that Sims makes in his own memoirs. Here's how

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Speaker 1: Sims writes about his third named test subject, ANARCA quote.

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Speaker 1: Her life was one of suffering and disgust. Death would

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Speaker 1: have been preferable, but patients of this kind never die,

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Speaker 1: They must live and suffer. An ARCA had added to

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Speaker 1: the ficial and opening which extended into the rectum. Her

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Speaker 1: person was not only loathsome and disgusted to herself, but

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Speaker 1: to everyone who came near her. Now, this is Simms's

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Speaker 1: argument for why his experimentation was noble. Life was unlivable

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Speaker 1: in this condition, So what choice did he have but

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Speaker 1: to repeatedly cut into these people? Um. Now, he conducts

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Speaker 1: at least thirty failed surgeries on anarca, each as gruesome

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Speaker 1: as the ones we've detailed before. And this again there's

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Speaker 1: a lot that's fun up here. For one thing, Um,

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Speaker 1: he's the one saying death would have been preferable. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't say that would have been preferable. This fucking guy,

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Speaker 1: I bet you he doesn't even get like a rectal

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Speaker 1: exam without taking a vicut in first. You know what

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Speaker 1: I mean to go through an hour long plus thing naked,

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Speaker 1: all these people staring at you, this intense pain. It's

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Speaker 1: honestly the something it's like out of the movie Hostel. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's and and again all of these doctors are

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Speaker 1: kind of like pointing doing something fucked up, even because

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Speaker 1: that description we've read above is of a of a

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Speaker 1: of a of a free woman like dealing with it

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Speaker 1: and how horrible it is. But no matter who they're

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Speaker 1: talking about, they all make the comment that, like, your

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Speaker 1: life isn't worth living with this this thing. And again

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Speaker 1: none of them ask these women if they think their

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Speaker 1: lives are worth living, right, Like, that's that's one aspect

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Speaker 1: of this that's messed up. Um, And if they did

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Speaker 1: that even bother to document it, they didn't care enough

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Speaker 1: that it didn't matter enough to them to document it.

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Speaker 1: They think it's gross and so like that's to them.

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Speaker 1: It's like, that's again, not that this is not a

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Speaker 1: serious problem, that very clearly is, but that's pretty messed

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Speaker 1: up in my head. Um now. Monica Cronan ads in

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Anesthesia and Intensive Care quote, after years

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Speaker 1: without success, Sims decided to stop operating until he could

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Speaker 1: solve a problem with sutures. He describes the women in

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Speaker 1: his hospitals becoming clamorous for him to continue. The impression

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Speaker 1: he creates is that the women were desperate for him

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Speaker 1: to continue his experiments, which cements their role as collaborators. Now,

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Speaker 1: a few things are worth noting here. The first is

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Speaker 1: that the conditions affecting Anarca and the other enslaved women

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Speaker 1: that Simms experimented on did not form a vacuum. While

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Speaker 1: many free women also certainly suffered from fistula, including members

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Speaker 1: of royalty and other ladies of wealth and status, slavery

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Speaker 1: absolutely influenced the condition. This is ignored in nearly every

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Speaker 1: discussion of what was done to these women. And Arca

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Speaker 1: went into labor in eighteen forty five, when she was

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Speaker 1: seventeen years old. This was thankfully her first delivery. She

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Speaker 1: spent three days in agony before a doctor arrived, Monica

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Speaker 1: Cronan writes. Quote. Biological anthropologist Patricia Lambert writes that nutritional

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Speaker 1: deficiency diseases such as rickets, scurvy, pelagra, and iron deficiency

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Speaker 1: anemia are thought to have been common and enslaved communities.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps like other enslaved people, and Arca's diet was nutritionally

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Speaker 1: deficient and she developed rickets, which caused malformation of her

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Speaker 1: pelvis obstructed labor labor was a common result. So again,

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Speaker 1: part of why Anarca and these other women may have

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Speaker 1: had difficult labors that led to these fistula is that

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Speaker 1: they were malnourished because they were enslaved. Right, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: nobody was getting great prenatal care back then. Nobody was

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Speaker 1: getting it worse. Yeah. Now, the doctor who finally shows

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Speaker 1: up to treat Anarca when she's having this difficult pregnancy was,

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Speaker 1: of course James Mary and sims Uh. He was eventually

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Speaker 1: able to deliver her baby using forceps, which he had

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Speaker 1: very little experience with because, as he later wrote, if

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Speaker 1: there was anything I hated, it was investigating the organs

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Speaker 1: of the female pelvis um. He noted that the baby's

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Speaker 1: head was quote so impacted in the pelvis that labor

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Speaker 1: pains had almost ceased. Anarca did survive the surgery, but

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Speaker 1: the use of the forceps in the general nightmare situation

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Speaker 1: of the labor are what led to her fistula. UM.

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Speaker 1: It is worth noting James Mary and Sims does not

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Speaker 1: record whether or not the baby survived. He didn't consider

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Speaker 1: that particularly like worth noting at all. Um. Since she

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Speaker 1: could not write or read, we know nothing about how

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Speaker 1: she felt about the conditions she suffered after pregnancy. UM.

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Speaker 1: Simms writes lurally about how nasty and gross it was.

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Speaker 1: Um and I think his attempted his account of her

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Speaker 1: drips with clear disgust disguised as sympathy. That said, her

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Speaker 1: condition was undoubtedly painful, and like any person, she surely

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Speaker 1: desired a cure. That does not mean that she must

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Speaker 1: then have truly consented to Dr Simms's experimentation. We don't

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Speaker 1: have to theorize on this matter. The existence of contemporary

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Speaker 1: doctors like Hayward, who conducted fishalist surgeries and experimented on

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Speaker 1: free consenting people at the same time, puts the light

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Speaker 1: of this quote. And this is from Cronin. Hayward records

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Speaker 1: the way in which some women he treated simply returned

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Speaker 1: home although a cure had not been achieved, and he

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Speaker 1: never heard from them again. The patient presented in eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty two, four years before anesthesia, and Hayward records that

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Speaker 1: she evidently had no confidence in a successful result and

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Speaker 1: therefore returned home despite being in very much the same

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Speaker 1: condition she was when she came here. Hayward records a

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Speaker 1: situation which consent was conditional on a successful outcome. Given

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to grant or withdraw consent for further surgery,

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Speaker 1: this woman withdrew it despite the limitations brought on by

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Speaker 1: her condition. And that's that's the kicker to me, Right,

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Speaker 1: other doctors who were fighting the same condition that Sims

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Speaker 1: was held to something that approximates modern medical ethical standards. Right,

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Speaker 1: they attempted what they attempted, and when the woman said

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Speaker 1: I'm done, they let her go, right, And that also

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Speaker 1: shows it, like, yeah, it's very impossible all these women

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Speaker 1: after that first surgery would have said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'll deal with it. We can't know because they never

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Speaker 1: got the chance to. But like, I can't imagine, I

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Speaker 1: honestly just can't imagine. And I know that they probably

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Speaker 1: did this whole thing like, well, women are just stronger

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Speaker 1: than men. They can handle Oh yeah, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: that a little later too. Yeah, but I mean, I

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Speaker 1: I just, I mean, I can't imagine anyone's strong enough

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Speaker 1: to deal with that. I mean, I there are certainly

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Speaker 1: some people. I suspect that if the population of people

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Speaker 1: who had this, there would have been there were individuals

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Speaker 1: who who would have who would have truly and freely consented. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it takes thirty times, let's do it. There's always people

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Speaker 1: who are kind of outliers like that. Um, the fact

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Speaker 1: of the matter, and maybe maybe some of the women

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Speaker 1: that Sims was experimenting on would have freely chosen this,

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Speaker 1: but we'll never know, right, Like, no one bothered to

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Speaker 1: ask them, and they were not able to give free consent.

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Speaker 1: I just, I mean, at any point in his writings

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Speaker 1: Sims does he like acknowledge this was crazy, what this

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Speaker 1: this patient went through doing these surgeries so many times?

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Speaker 1: Does he acknowledge he's made a couple He makes a

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Speaker 1: couple of blaze of brief claims that like, oh, she

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Speaker 1: handled it bravely like um, but honestly, I mean again,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't even name the majority of the women he

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Speaker 1: was experimenting on, and we don't even know how many

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Speaker 1: times he did on each of them. Right. We know

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Speaker 1: he experimented thirty times on an Arca before he got

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Speaker 1: it right. Um. Now, obviously, uh, most people in medical

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Speaker 1: science as a whole today takes it as axiomatic that

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Speaker 1: an enslaved person cannot consent to being experimented on medically.

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Speaker 1: Dr Wall disagrees with this, and he uses Simms's own

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Speaker 1: writing to argue that consent was given. Quote. Simms gave

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Speaker 1: numerous accounts of these early FISTU law operations during the

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Speaker 1: course of his career, and although they differ in some details,

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00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 1: they all state quite plainly that he discussed what he

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00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,239
Speaker 1: proposed to do and obtained consent from the patients themselves

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Speaker 1: before undertaking any operations. Writing in the New York Medical

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Speaker 1: Gazette and Journal of Health in January eighteen fifty five,

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Speaker 1: for example, Sims declared, for this purpose, I was fortunate

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Speaker 1: in having three young, healthy colored girls given to me

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Speaker 1: by their owners in Alabama. I agreed to perform no

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Speaker 1: operation without the full consent of the patients, and never

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Speaker 1: to perform any that would in my judgment jeopard life

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Speaker 1: or produce greater mischief on the injured organs, the owners

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Speaker 1: agreeing to let me keep them at my own expense

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Speaker 1: till I was thoroughly convinced whether the affliction could be

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Speaker 1: cured or not. Now he writes this in eighteen fifty five.

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Speaker 1: Now he starts his experiments in eighteen forty five, he

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Speaker 1: finishes in forty nine. Right, so this is something he's

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Speaker 1: writing years after he gets his this is how we

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Speaker 1: do it kind of thing. Um. A lot of Sims

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Speaker 1: critics will point out that his autobiography, which is published

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Speaker 1: decades after this, emphasized consent because it was now vogue

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Speaker 1: to act like you'd always believe that slavery was bad.

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Speaker 1: The fact that he does write this about their consent

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Speaker 1: prior to the Civil War could be seen as evidence

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Speaker 1: that he did care about obtaining what he saw as consent. However,

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Speaker 1: he's also writing for an international audience who view slavery

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Speaker 1: rightly as a borrent, so you could also argue that

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Speaker 1: he just knew he was like playing to a crowd

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Speaker 1: about his patients autonomy. Right, he's writing for Europe, you know,

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Speaker 1: because he goes and he works in Europe. After this right.

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Speaker 1: That's probably why he makes this note. More importantly, Monica

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Speaker 1: Cronin notes that sims recollections and claims about his own

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00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 1: work and treatment of his patients were never entirely trustworthy.

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00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,399
Speaker 1: He claimed in his own public writings that in eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty five, prior to starting his experiments, he had investigated

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Speaker 1: the literature on the subject thoroughly and walked away convinced

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00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: that there were no good solutions proposed. This is unlikely.

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Speaker 1: Hayward had published his first account of a successful procedure

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00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,200
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty nine, that's six years before Dr sims

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00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 1: starts his Another doctor Mattawer, had done the same in

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty. Now, without being, which is the search engine

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00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 1: we all use, I'm aware, UM, searching was a lot harder.

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Speaker 1: So you're a Jeeves man. You're Jeeves man. That's not

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Speaker 1: my brand, but I respect it. Um. But without without

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00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 1: the only two good search engines being and asked Jeeves,

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00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 1: searching was a lot harder back then. But Monica Cronin

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Speaker 1: notes in eighteen fifty three that Dr Sims right wrote

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Speaker 1: a monograph that mentioned the work of both Heyward and Mattawer.

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Speaker 1: Now maybe he was unaware of them in eighteen forty five,

352
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 1: but he there's a good chance he was aware of them,

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Speaker 1: And one could argue that he should have been aware

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Speaker 1: of them because they were some of the only dudes

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Speaker 1: publishing in the field that he was experimenting it, absolutely

356
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Speaker 1: aware of him. I'll tell you how it goes. He'll

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Speaker 1: go to some sort of convention and he'll go to

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Speaker 1: some sort of like thing where he's with a bunch

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00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 1: of doctors trying to impress all these doctors from Europe

360
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: with his like procedure and his technique. And then what

361
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,200
Speaker 1: those doctors do is trying to press everyone in the

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Speaker 1: room with their knowledge of the literature. And one of

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00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 1: those doctors was surely knowledgeable about prior cases and brought

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Speaker 1: it in, and his response was probably like, well, you know, yes,

365
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 1: of course I've seen the paper case report, but you

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Speaker 1: know that they weren't dealing with the type of fistula

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00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,159
Speaker 1: that I'm dealing with here. This kind official is a

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00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 1: very different thing, etcetera. So he was definitely exposed to it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I think that, And and again that's again that's

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Speaker 1: what Cronin's arguing. And by the way, the fact that

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Speaker 1: you've be talking about anesthesia a couple of times. The

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00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,159
Speaker 1: fact that she is an expert on anesthesia writing for

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Anesthesia will be real relevant. But we

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Speaker 1: got some other ship to get through. But you know

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Speaker 1: what we've got to get through first, Yeah, I know,

376
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 1: we got to get through capitalism. Capitalism is the thing, man,

377
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Speaker 1: I'm all about it. I'm all about it. It's good.

378
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 1: It allows me to have goats. Thank your goats. Honestly,

379
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: I think the goats are before. But like pretty good sandwiches,

380
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I will say this for capitalism. It's been

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00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 1: a real boon for sandwich innovation. Probably have you have

382
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: fewer kinds of sandwiches prior to capitalism. It's the only

383
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 1: good thing to come out of capitalism. I think I

384
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 1: can agree with that. Sandwiches and yeah, sandwiches and goats

385
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:35,239
Speaker 1: invented the goat invented by John capitalism in nine. All right,

386
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 1: we are back, Okay. So when it comes to modern

387
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 1: defenses of dr Simms, L. L. Wall next claims quote

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Speaker 1: as a matter of surgical practicality, considering the delicate and

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Speaker 1: tedious requirements of performing surgery inside the vagina and the

390
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 1: exceedingly difficult circumstances of exposure and adequate lighting under which

391
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 1: he was forced to operate. Sims could not have carried

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00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 1: out these operations successfully without the cooperation of the women involved.

393
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: Even the slightest movement, much less the active resistance of

394
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: these patients, would have rendered it impossible for him to

395
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: have completed his operative procedures. Indeed, when his regular medical

396
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: assistants tired of working with him, Sims trained the patients

397
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: themselves to act as his surgical assistance, and they thereafter

398
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 1: helped him operate on one another. In turn, he ends

399
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 1: that sentence with an exclamation point. Now there's a lot

400
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: that's wrong with that, right, there's a lot that's wrong.

401
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: She didn't fight, so she must have been fine with

402
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: it so much. Now, first off, his argument is again

403
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 1: they must have consented because they didn't fight, And then

404
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: they were so intuit that they got trained a surgical assistance,

405
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: which he frames is like, look at how cool it is.

406
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: They're helping him with his his great work. Again, he

407
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: frames this is kind of a triumph. Um. However, number one,

408
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: obviously he owned effectively owns these women in a legal sense,

409
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: they could not agree to it. But also, like other

410
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: write ups of the fact that he trains some of

411
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: these women to be surgical assistants are a lot less cheery. See,

412
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: can I guess, yeah, Is it more like you need

413
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: to hold this person down while I do this? Ding

414
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: ding ding ding ding? Yes? Yes, by being he is

415
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: literally they're not fighting and they're agreeing to hold down

416
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 1: each other while I like, it's pretty pretty bad like

417
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 1: when you think about it. Um, that Wall, that wall

418
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 1: today is making that argument. Um and again Wall simply

419
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: says that Simms is regular medical by which I mean

420
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: white medical assistants tired of the work, and that's why

421
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: he had to train these women. The context Kronin provides

422
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: makes the reality seem a bit more dire. Quote. Originally,

423
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: Simms had a lot of support from the local medical

424
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: community for Lucy's operation. He records another dozen or so

425
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: doctors in attendance to witness his work and to assistant

426
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 1: support him. As time passed, he received less and less support.

427
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: His brother in law, also a doctor, all but begged

428
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: him to stop, citing the expensive housing additional enslaved women,

429
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: as well as the injustice to his young and growing family.

430
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: Because his attention was so diverted. Within two years, of

431
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: beginning his experimentation, Simms was cast into professional isolation. He

432
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: wrote that despite the many problems he experienced, his patients

433
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 1: were all perfectly satisfied with what I am doing for them.

434
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 1: I cannot depend on the doctors, and so I have

435
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: trained them to assist me. So. Furthermore, when Simms does

436
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: finally figure out how to do this procedure in a

437
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: replicable way and he publishes an article on at in

438
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty two, he figures it out before, but the

439
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 1: article comes out in fifty two. He describes several parts

440
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: of the procedure for which assistance was required, like the

441
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: things he needed these women's help for. And as you

442
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: said first, I mean, it does include stuff like cleaning

443
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: instruments and holding the speculum in place, but it involves

444
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: having them hold each other down while he performs surgery

445
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: on them. Um, you can. Yeah, I'll make your own

446
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: conclusions about the ethics of that. But it's real weird

447
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: that Wall goes to bat for this part of it

448
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 1: to make That's what's interesting about this. And I'm actually

449
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: kind of glad that you've given me someone to hate

450
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: that's still alive, you know what I mean, it's rare

451
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: that you do that. Usually you give me these stories

452
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: of people who are terrible and then they die and

453
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: there's like that and they died like happily and peacefully.

454
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: But rarely is there like, oh, there's a chance of

455
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 1: this person could experience some consequences and that's that's almost

456
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: heartwarming to me. Yeah, and I one of the stories

457
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: that we're not going to get into enough of the

458
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,719
Speaker 1: last few years is Wall like steadily losing this argument

459
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: within his own field to people, um because he is

460
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: He's spent years defending sims Um and eventually people have

461
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 1: pretty much stopped listening. Um. I don't know what's going

462
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: on with the guy, but he is very much dedicated

463
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: to like defending this man's legacy as opposed to just

464
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: like defending like, well, we need to you know, this

465
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 1: is a chapter in medical history that's worth studying, which

466
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: it certainly is. But um, part of what's worth studying

467
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 1: is stuff that's sucked up about it. Yeah. Um, So

468
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: nearly every critical piece about Dr Mary and Simms will

469
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: note that one of his sins was failing to use

470
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: anesthesia on his enslaved patients. NPR writes a pretty representative

471
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: summary of this critique quote. Modern critics of Simms also

472
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: note that he conducted these experiments without anesthesia, although the

473
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: Commission does not focus on this element of his research.

474
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: His research began during the early days of modern anesthesia,

475
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: as his defenders have noted, After perfecting the technique on

476
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: black women without anesthesia, Simms went on to offer it

477
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 1: to white women, but he treated white women with anesthesia.

478
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: Gamble noted Simms's own statements on this are mixed. Years

479
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: after his initial tests, he said he still didn't believe

480
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: in using anesthesia for fistualist surgeries because they are not

481
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: painful enough to justify the trouble and risk, But he

482
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: also said the experimental surgeries on his enslaved subjects were

483
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: so painful that none but a woman could have borne them,

484
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: And in his autobiography he describes conducting fistal operations in

485
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: Europe on wealthy women who were sedated. So this is

486
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: such like a small part of a bigger problem about

487
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: how men do awful things to women and then basically

488
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: are like women. How do they handle us? Huh? So strong?

489
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: That was my wife put up with me sucking so

490
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: bad and clearly and you're probably gonna talk about this later,

491
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: but clearly you know this a big part of his uh,

492
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: his thought that like she can handle the pain, it's

493
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: because she's black too. Because that was and now and

494
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: now I don't know where to get to that. Yeah, okay,

495
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,239
Speaker 1: we'll get to that. There's a there's a study from

496
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: a journal called Penis that I want to tell you

497
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: about later if you don't already have it. So we're

498
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: going to talk about your penis a lot. Let's get

499
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: into the pens We we had to had to do

500
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: that at some point. So it was inevitable. That was

501
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: just physics, baby, That was just that was just tides

502
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: rolling in. So now I will note so NPR makes

503
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: the statement that like uh, he does conduct fistial experiments

504
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: or operations and women who are subated in Europe. It

505
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: is worth noting, to be completely fair about this, that

506
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: NPR does not make us note of when he used

507
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: anesthetic on wealthy white women. And this is important, right,

508
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: And this is again not to like forgive this man,

509
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: but it is worth noting just to be accurate. This

510
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: is a period in which they are starting to figure

511
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: out anesthetics, right, This is a period in which that

512
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: that science is very much being born in a meaningful way. Um,

513
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: it was a not at the time a completely agreed

514
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: upon thing. There were substantial medical debate on whether you

515
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: should anesthetize patients and when you should anesthetize them, and

516
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: how one of them. This is a side but one

517
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: of the weird things to me is that, um, they

518
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: figure out how to make and have and use nitrous oxide,

519
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: like a hundred something years before this point, like in

520
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, people are having not like nitrous parties.

521
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: They don't use it until like around this period for

522
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: the first time in an actual medical procedure, Like we

523
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: know about this ship for a hundred years before someone's like, hey,

524
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: this thing that makes it impossible to feel pain and

525
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: makes people just kind of like pass out. What have

526
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: we What have we use that on surgery? Can we

527
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: maybe try an in instead of like getting them drunk

528
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: and hacking off a limb? Right at some point someone

529
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: would be like, they wouldn't move a lot less, I

530
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: think if they weren't screaming and writing. And it seems

531
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: like alcohol sucks as a pain killer. Oh well, back

532
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: to the axe, Yeah, it does this. It is one

533
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: of those things where it's like you had like you

534
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: had God's perfect anesthetic for a hundred years before anyone

535
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: was like, what have we use this for surgery? Could

536
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: this work on the biggest problem in medical science? Yeah?

537
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean also like keep partying with it, fuck it,

538
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: don't keep this at the parties. I mean by eighteen

539
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: forty six, like, uh, it had been well described. We're

540
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: getting into that. Yeah. Sorry, I just wanted to note that,

541
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: like the fact that he's doing in the eighteen sixties

542
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: in Europe he's using anesthetic, doesn't mean that in eighteen

543
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: forty five he would have had it right or known

544
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: that it was the right thing to do. The timing

545
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: matters here because you can't specifically call it cruelty for

546
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: not enslaving his enslaved, for not sedating his enslaved patients. Yeah,

547
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: if he did not have the ability to do so, right. Um.

548
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: This is basically the argument that Wall makes in defensive

549
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: sims in this specific aspect. Now, again, this is why

550
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: I'm particularly partial to Monica Cronin's ra posts to Wall,

551
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: because she is an expert in the history of anesthesiology. Um,

552
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: and she is particularly trenchant in her dissection of these claims.

553
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,959
Speaker 1: She notes that while Sims did his experiments in Alabama,

554
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: over in Georgia, where he had also spent time, a

555
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: prominent doctor named Crawford Long had been using ether as

556
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: a sedative since eighteen forty two. Tools like that could

557
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: have sedated his patients were available if he had one

558
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: of them. I should notice Cronan does that the concept

559
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: of anesthetizing patients was new in this period. It was

560
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: not universally agreed upon. Is to win you should anesthetize people.

561
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: That said, she seems to conclude that, based on the

562
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: experiments going on around him, it is unfair to criticize

563
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: him for not using the anesthetics. When he started in

564
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: eighteen forty five, he may not have realistically been able

565
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: to like get access to them. But after eighteen forty six,

566
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: and he carried out dozens of surgeries after eighteen forty six,

567
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: he had the opportunity. The tools were available and it

568
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: was well documented that they worked. Quote Leonard F. Vernon

569
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: argue Simms's lack of training and experience in the use

570
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: of ether would have prevented him from using it, as

571
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: it may have been more of a danger than the

572
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: actual surgery. The idea recurs in defensive sims, Yet lack

573
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: of training and experience did not stop him from using

574
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: for steps on Anarca certainly did not stand in his

575
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: way when attempting surgical repair for obstetric fistula, and it

576
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: did not prevent other medical practitioners from using ether anesthesia

577
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: in their day to day practice either. It's like being like, well,

578
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: it was still a little experimental, and maybe he didn't

579
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: know how to use. It's like he didn't know how

580
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: to do any of the ship he was doing. He

581
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: was an experimental position, Like yeah, and I mean they

582
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: were doing it for dental procedures. Yes, yes, he could

583
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: have could have scruciating, horror, horrific procedure without And obviously,

584
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: like again, I think that you should have to consent

585
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: for I had an uncle who died because he got

586
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,239
Speaker 1: an esthetic that he really did not want and it

587
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: was kind of like a fucked up situation. This was

588
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: before I was born, obviously, Um, but like, I think

589
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: you should have to consent before getting anesthetized. Obviously, at

590
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: least to the extent that that's possible. Sometimes people arrive

591
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: in like a sedative extremists, and you know you have

592
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: to assume certain things. But like in the case of

593
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: an experimentation, obviously they can't consent to being anesthetized anymore

594
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: than they can consent to the experiment. But if you're

595
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: going to experiment on unconsenting people, I guess it's better

596
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: to try to sedate them. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know,

597
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: do something something bad that makes them comfortable. Yeah, at

598
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: least try to all, at least show that you care

599
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: about their comfort. I guess, I don't know. Mitigating is

600
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: the wrong word, but would at least show that you

601
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: view them as things that the people that are capable

602
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: of experiencing pain, right, um so yeah um now. NPR

603
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: and other critical write ups of Sims will suggest that

604
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: he may have acted as he did out of a

605
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: widespread belief that black people suffered pain less acutely than

606
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: white people. It is worth noting that this errant belief

607
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: is still very much alive in medicine today and influences patment,

608
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: patient treatment, and outcomes. In two as the website Hidden

609
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: Brain notes quote, black patients continue to receive less pain

610
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: medication for broken bones and cancer. Black children receive less

611
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: pain medication that white children for appendicitis. One reason for

612
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: this is that many people inaccurately believe that blacks literally

613
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: have thicker skin than whites and experience less pain. Again,

614
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: this is it's certain that this affected Sims. As far

615
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: as I'm concerned, it is an absolute fact that this

616
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: impact did Dr sims treatment of these people, because it's

617
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: still impacts the way doctors do their ship today. UM. Now,

618
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: obviously L. L. Wall rejects this. UM. He notes that

619
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: Sims repeatedly talked about how much pain and Arca, Betsy

620
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: and the other women were in. He definitely does talk

621
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: about them being in pain, but it's always so that

622
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: he can be like what a hero I am for

623
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: treating them, and like they wanted me to, Like right anyway, um,

624
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: part of yeah, sorry, I before we leave that point,

625
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a really important point to

626
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: show that it's still an issue that question about people

627
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: thinking that black people had thicker skin, literal thicker skin.

628
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: They tested that amongst medical students, and medical students thought

629
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: a little bit more than the average, Like I thought

630
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: a little bit more than you would expect that black

631
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: people had thicker skin. Jesus Christ. Yeah, you know, it's

632
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: it's terr I mean, medical students are not like born

633
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: out of some sort of vacuum. They come from so up.

634
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: But but you know, you would think those people would

635
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: know a little bit better. But that was not uncommon.

636
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: There's a that that study about the appendicitis the white

637
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: kids getting more medication for a pendicize and black kids.

638
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: I was like, back in two thousands, five, two thousand,

639
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: there's a journalist paying the article that came out showing that, uh,

640
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: pharmacies and black neighborhoods always carried less opiates and pain

641
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: medication than the pharmacies in white neighborhoods, like almost across

642
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: the board. It was so just in general. That's that's

643
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: still I'm glad that you brought up. It's still a

644
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: problem we have in the medical community. I mean, it's

645
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: it's been talked about for for a while now, but

646
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: every couple of years, some new article comes out saying

647
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: like we're under treating these this population. Jesus God. Um. Well,

648
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: so when it I mean, what one thing? So I again,

649
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 1: I don't want to just be because l O. Wall

650
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: is very very specific. Whenever people make arguments about this

651
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: guy and he gets into like the b he says

652
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 1: this and this guy says. So to be specific, I

653
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: just mentioned I'm certain that that Dr Sims had this

654
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: racist belief about his black patients. There is documented evidence

655
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: that he held beliefs like this um and not just

656
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: towards black people. And this is again makes that case. Uh.

657
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote again from Cronin's right up. Mary

658
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: Smith was one of the first women listed on the

659
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: patient register at Simms's newly opened Women's hospital in eighteen

660
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: fifty five. Her first delivery had been in Ireland, where

661
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: she had experienced a prolapsed uterus, a herniated and prolapsed bladder,

662
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: fecal incontinence, and urine leakage that had rubbed her vulvar raw.

663
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: Upon examination, Simms declared her a most offensive and loathsome subject.

664
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: Simms and his junior colleague Thomas Emmett performed over thirty

665
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: operations on Smith over a six year period without anesthesia.

666
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: The women's hospital did not routinely administer anesthesia until after

667
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: the end of the Civil War in eighteen sixty five.

668
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: The way Simms wrote about treating a woman patient in

669
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: France in eighteen sixty one provides a stark contrast to

670
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: Mary Smith's treatment working with five other people who could assist,

671
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: Sims performed two operations on a twenty one year old woman.

672
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: She was, he wrote, young, beautiful, rich and accomplished, and

673
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 1: he had never seen a case of this kind which

674
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: was attended with such suffering. Clearly, none of the enslaved

675
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: or poverty stricken women he treated earlier had displayed their

676
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: suffering in quite the right way. This was a woman who,

677
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: has Sims described, belongs to the higher walks of life.

678
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: So he not only is this a guy who certainly

679
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: believes that like enslaved black women are less capable of

680
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: experiencing pain, he believes that poor Irish women do not

681
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: experience pain to the same way as this rich French lady.

682
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: This is documented and like it's it's very clear when

683
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: you look at the writing about this, like he this

684
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: is a deeply classist, racist man who believes that your

685
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: ability to experience suffering is dependent upon your social status.

686
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: The whole princess and the p thing, like if you're

687
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: if you're rich and you come from like aristocracy, you

688
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: could feel the tiny little pia and your your genteel

689
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: skin from like mattresses away. Yeah, and it's it's just

690
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: very telling to again eighteen fifty five, ten years after

691
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: the star to these experiments, when there were certainly anesthetics

692
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: and sedation available. He is still when the woman's poor

693
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: in somebody he doesn't think about as like a proper

694
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: woman operating without any kind of anesthetic, right, and to

695
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: get thirty operations on this lady, you know wow, Um,

696
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: but you know who always operates with than aesthetic at

697
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: least most of the thirty times. Yeah, the products and

698
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: services that support this podcast, um will make sure you

699
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: have ample uh access to anesthetic because we're sponsored by Ether. Ether.

700
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: If you just wanted to, like huff out of a

701
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: jar and go away for a while, pretty much your

702
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: best bet. However, I don't like what you don't want

703
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 1: to go away for just a little while the news

704
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: is horrible today. I wouldn't mind just a jar of

705
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: forget me now, like just take a sniff and away

706
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: you go, like you're not wrong. But also no, well, yeah,

707
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,479
Speaker 1: too bad because we are entirely supported by the Ether

708
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: and that is exclusively our only sponsor. That's our only

709
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: sponsor is big either, So get rent yourself, uh one

710
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: of those cars you can roll the roof down on

711
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: start going like eighty miles an hour, you know, on

712
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: the highway, and then just tough a little bit of

713
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: either of a little bit of either not a lot,

714
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,959
Speaker 1: not enough to pass out. That's not safe. Look, look,

715
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: I would prefer your ad, your advert to be that

716
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: and not like dick pills. So big either, yeah, big either.

717
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: And you know if you mix the ether and the

718
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: do not give him what any cause to do this

719
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: more than he already is. No, I'm a doctor. I

720
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: totally encourage this behavior. And Robert, it's fantastic either. Okay, okay,

721
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: big trust me right now a doctor. Yeah yeah, So

722
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: that's the right motherfucker we're talking about. Anyway, here's the

723
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: ether industry. We're back, and Big Ether is happy to

724
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: expand its base of clients from a hundred and twenty

725
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: year old men who live in castles in the Adirondacks.

726
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: So please help Big Ether come into the twenty one century. Um,

727
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: it's very flammable, bar the whole blue zone diet. A

728
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: lot of shellfish in either some seviche of ether and

729
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: thou baby, oh man, that's not a bad and that's

730
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: not a bad actually yeah um so um. Anyway, once

731
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: Dr Sims because he figures is I think eighteen forty

732
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: nine is like when he kind of gets it right,

733
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: although obviously the fact that he's he takes some thirty

734
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: times to get it right on another patient eighteen fifty five.

735
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: It's a messy process, right. But he releases his bombshell

736
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: report on how to fix Fishila in eighteen fifty two.

737
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: He releases a follow up monograph in eighteen fifty three,

738
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: and he becomes famous across the world. He moves to

739
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: New York City and he starts the very first hospital

740
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 1: for women in the United States. UM, that is Dr

741
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: Sim's first women's hospital. Now this is really controversial at

742
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: the time, and he does Again a lot of people

743
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: think it's like gross to do medicine on women. UM,

744
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: so like he has to, he does have to, he

745
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: does get I don't know what credit you want to

746
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: give him, but it is like a thing he has

747
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: to like fight to fund and operate this hospital and

748
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: to like train doctors specifically and treated women's health issues.

749
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: And that's a positive move. It's good that that happened. UM.

750
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: During the Civil War, Simms, who described himself as a

751
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: loyal Southerner, moves to Europe, where he works on fish

752
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: sula patients across the continent and the Aisles. There is

753
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: some evidence that he acted as a government agent for

754
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: the Confederacy while he was there, helping them seek loans

755
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: and diplomatic recognition. Secretary of State Seward describes him as

756
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: a quote secessionist and sentiment and hostile to the government.

757
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: It's very possible he was a Confederate spy while he

758
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: was in Europe. Um another reason to not root for

759
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: this dude. Yep, yep. He really keeps making the decisions

760
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: he keeps making. In eighteen sixty three, while the war

761
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: is you know, going going around, it's kind of like

762
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: the height of shit. Um, he treats the Empress Eugenie

763
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: of France for officila. This is like one of the

764
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: things he's most famous for is he fixes the because

765
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: she's This is back when France has an empress. They

766
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: don't for in like another seven or eight years because

767
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: they lose a war pretty bad. But at this point

768
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: she's like one of the most famous women in the world. Right, Um,

769
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: she has a fistula, he fixes it. This is controversial.

770
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: There are claims that there's zero evidence whatsoever that he

771
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: actually treated her for anything. UM, and people who will

772
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: argue that he was basically pretending to treat a medical

773
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: issue in order to secretly due diplomacy with France on

774
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: behalf of the Confederacy. UM. Obviously, I I'm not competent

775
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: to go into detail on that, but it is an

776
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: argument people make. He was very likely doing some shady

777
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: ship on the Confederacy's behalf while he's in Europe. UM.

778
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: He remained a racist his entire career, as this section

779
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: from NPRS rite up makes clear. His racism had brutal

780
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: consequences for patients outside the almost gynecology to quote. Before

781
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: and after his gynecological experiments, he also tested surgical treatments

782
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: on enslaved black children in an effort to treat Christmas

783
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: nascentium neo natal tetanus, with little to no success. Sims

784
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: also believed that African Americans were less intelligent than white people,

785
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: and thought it was because their skulls grew too quickly

786
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: around their brain. He would operate on African American children

787
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: using a shoemaker's tool to pry their bones apart and

788
00:42:51,960 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: loosen their skulls. Oh my god, a dude who sucks here? Right?

789
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: This Yeah, he's he's a pretty bad guy. Um. Dr

790
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: Sims stayed in Europe for a while after the end

791
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: of the Civil War. He returned in eighteen seventy one

792
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: to work at the Women's Hospital, and eventually he establishes

793
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: the first cancer institute in the United States, the New

794
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: York Cancer Hospital. He was an unanimously elected president of

795
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: the American Medical Association in eighteen seventy six. Um in

796
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy seven, he starts suffering in Giana attacks. He

797
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: catches typhoid in eighteen eighty, which starts a rapid decline.

798
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: He makes his like he writes half of the autobiography

799
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: basically that we've cited today when he dies of a

800
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: heart attack on November thirteenth, eighteen eighty three, in Manhattan.

801
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: In recognition for his achievements, Jay Mary and Sims had

802
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: several statues made in his honor, including one in Manhattan's

803
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: Central Park. After years of controversy, it was removed in

804
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: two thousand and eighteen. I think a couple others were

805
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: moved in at least one. Um and yeah, that's uh,

806
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: that's that dude. I I mean, this is obviously he's

807
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: this guy is a true bastard um, Yes, I think

808
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: that's clear. But what but what is interesting that really

809
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 1: important about this is that, I mean, there's echoes of

810
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: what happened because of him that still reverberate through today

811
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: and cause us a lot of in the medical community,

812
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: a lot of I think would needs to be some

813
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: deep introspection and and some reckoning. I mean things like

814
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: this Henrietta lacks Tuskegee and they how could they not

815
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: leave these real intense historical scars on the collective psyche

816
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: of of this community. Who, by the way, I mean

817
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: if you they'll, they'll you'll probably hear some of you

818
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: here reports. A lot of African Americans don't feel like

819
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: they're being listened to by the medical community. We talked

820
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,959
Speaker 1: about some of the studies that show they got less

821
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: pain from the pan Astia, really great name of that.

822
00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: What's is procedural procedure, procedurals of the nation. What kind

823
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: of the science to day was They had that two

824
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 1: thousand sixteen article that was the show that they got

825
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: less pain meds and that is still to this day.

826
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: Like African American women, Indigenous women are two to three

827
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: times more likely to die during childbirth I mean, this

828
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: is still stuff that we're dealing with. And because of this,

829
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: understandably as a doctor, I run into a lot of

830
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: i atrophobia, like people afraid of the heeling of the

831
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: medical and what's what people are like, why would the

832
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 1: African American community not want to get the COVID vaccine?

833
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: You're like, fuck, look look at the history that we reasonable.

834
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: It's this, it's this, like there's um. One of the

835
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: most fucked up things the CIA has done recently is

836
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: they they had a fake vaccine drive in Pakistan where

837
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: they were really testing people's blood to see if they

838
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: could find people related to Osama bin Laden to track

839
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: them down, and like, weren't vaccinating people And it was

840
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, of course there's distrust of Western vaccine

841
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: programs the c I A thank you, um wow. Well,

842
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: and it's and also like you bring up Indigenous women.

843
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: There were we're not talking about this today, so I

844
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: don't want to go into too much detail because I

845
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: don't want to get something wrong, but like, there were

846
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: a lot of vaccine trials done with real questionable consent

847
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: on indigenous populations in the United States. You know, yeah,

848
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 1: I know you did a good did a really good Um.

849
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: I forget which where you did? I think was on

850
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: this show you talked about, you know, the history of vaccines,

851
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: and there's some problematic components. Yeah, like like like with

852
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: everything right, like like with voting you know. Um yeah, Um,

853
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: it's not a factor. It's not a it's not an

854
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: inherent characteristics of vaccines. It's an inherent characteristic of like

855
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: the white supremacist state that has existed for a couple

856
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: of hundred years. Um. Yeah, which kind of colors everything.

857
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: There's a there's a really good nineteen forty one paper

858
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: titled the Negroes Contribution to Surgery published in the Journal

859
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: of the National Medical Association by Dr John A. Kenney

860
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: of the Tuskegee Institute, UM, who was like a groundbreaking

861
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: black dermatologist. Um. And he kind of he writes in

862
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: that paper, I suggest that a monument be raised and

863
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: dedicated to the nameless Negroes who have contributed so much

864
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: to surgery by the guinea pig route. UM. I found

865
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: this in an article about them removing a statue of Sims. UM.

866
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I'm not much of a statue

867
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: guy one way or the other, but certainly that's a

868
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: better idea for a statue than one to this guy. Absolutely,

869
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: as I mean, people also need to remember this is

870
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: I mean, we think this is like ages and ages ago.

871
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: The Tuskegee experiment ended in like one of these days, yeah,

872
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: ninety two. Like I had attendings teaching me that were

873
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: alive and practicing medicine at that time. So it's like

874
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: not that long ago that this was a thing that

875
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: was happening. Yep, yep. And like I mean, a bunch

876
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: of the I mean, presumably one hopes at least that

877
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: a number of the women that he was experimenting on

878
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: probably lived into the twentieth century or the nineteenth century.

879
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: Twent century, Yeah, the century are always hard because it's

880
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: one less than the number. You know, it doesn't you

881
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: know how counting works? Yeah? Um, I don't know. I

882
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: think he probably shouldn't enslaved people, and you also shouldn't

883
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: conduct medical experiments on them. Um. That's my that's my

884
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: radical left wing rant for the day. Um. I don't

885
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 1: want to get political here, Okay, okay, um, but yeah,

886
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: probably bad, probably bad, But I don't know. It's I

887
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: think it's worth really digging into because we could have done.

888
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: I kind of considered doing like a much broader episode

889
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: where this guy would be a chunk, and then we

890
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: talked Henrietta Lacks and Tuskegee. But there's so much to

891
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: say about how this is conducted, about how other doctors

892
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: who are who are not experimenting on enslaved people do

893
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: things differently, about how this guy is like received, how

894
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: he justifies it, how he's what he just I really think,

895
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 1: and I think we'll probably wind up focusing on each

896
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: of those other those other I don't know what to

897
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: all them, like pieces of medical history, like in in detail,

898
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: because I think it is worthwhile. There's always a lot

899
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 1: to like drill down here about how it was justified

900
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: at the time, how it's been justified since the how

901
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: the language that people uses around this kind of stuff

902
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 1: acts to sort of hide the horror um even by

903
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: doing things that are like you, you claim to be

904
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: advocating for the patient, but what you're really doing is

905
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: kind of like making suffering porn about this person in

906
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: order to like say that basically anything I do is justified,

907
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: which seems bad to me. Have we started the hashtag

908
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: a dab all doctors are bastards? The doctors are the cops.

909
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: Um No, I mean, actually this is so important that

910
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: we talked. I mean it aually timely now because we

911
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: have to. We're talking about autonomy in people's rights. Jesus Christ.

912
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: It's like a basic medical ethic that we still do

913
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: not have in this country. And it seems to be

914
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: going backwards. Yeah. And it's the same I mean, there's

915
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: a there's a huge degree to which like it's the

916
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: same thing with journalism, right. We can talk about the

917
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: history of white supremacy and journalism. How journalism was used

918
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: to like whip up fear of slave how probably a

919
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: decent chunk of Dr Simms, terror of like runaway slaves

920
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: was stoked by articles in the local press about like

921
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: horrible things done by runaway slaves and whatever town or whatever.

922
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: Um and then ship like you know, the Spanish American War,

923
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: the kind of yellow press and how you know, and

924
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: the Iraq War and the ways in which you know,

925
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 1: today a lot of idiots in legacy media are writing

926
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: these like are to well, we have to experseamine, you know.

927
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: Really there's a lot more problems with conversion, with with

928
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: gender transition and stuff than like and we should and

929
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: and doing this writing this stuff in a way that

930
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: like plays into this right wing outrage machine and being like, well,

931
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: we're not writing things that are meant to do that.

932
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: It's just other people taking us out of context. And

933
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but if you're putting shit out, if

934
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: you if you don't think about the ethics of what

935
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: you're doing, if you like you're you're like in the

936
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: actual impact of what you're doing, it's the same. It's

937
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 1: the same thing. We have these these things that are

938
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: really important as institutions medicine and in the media and

939
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: and all of this stuff that is are critical for

940
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: having a society, and a lot of people within them

941
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: who don't like some of the some of the really

942
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: thorny ethical questions that are necessary when you look at

943
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: the history of these institutions, Like guys like I think

944
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: Wall who want to just celebrate what is legitimately groundbreaking medicine, right,

945
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: and SIMS was groundbreaking, and a lot of his application

946
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: of medicine um, and he wants to Wall wants to

947
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 1: celebrate that, and he doesn't want to really like, look

948
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: at what's super fucked up about this guy Um, And

949
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of people who do that

950
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: for a bunch of things. It's this, it's this constant

951
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: problem we have of like and I think wall is.

952
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 1: I don't think doing wall is doing the effortful version.

953
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: The low effort version is to say, like, oh, you

954
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: just want to ignore, like you just want to cancel history. Right.

955
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: It was like, no, I'm telling you the history of

956
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: Mary and Sims. I think it's important to talk about

957
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 1: the history of Marion Sims. I wish, like hell, we

958
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: knew more about the history of of Betsy Um of Anarca,

959
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: of Lucy, of like these and then women he does

960
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,439
Speaker 1: not name who he experimented upon because they are also

961
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: critical parts of medical history. Yeah, no, exactly, it's the opposite.

962
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: You don't you want the history to be known. It's

963
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: just there's certain things that should not be celebrated. Yeah, yeah,

964
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: I don't. We we don't need to make him into

965
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: a hero to discuss what he did, because what he

966
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: did is important. Yeah. Yeah, this is an ongoing story

967
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: in medicine. There's like when I was in training, we

968
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: started moving away from eponyms because ostensibly because we want

969
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: to focus on the science of it and not the

970
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: name of the person, but because so often in medicine

971
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: you run across someone like Wagner. Then Wagner's gran granulumatosis.

972
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: Sorry killed that word and I should know it better.

973
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: But anyways, Wagner's disease because he was a Nazi, you know,

974
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: and and things were, and he was an important pathologist

975
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 1: in many ways. You know, we need to be able

976
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: to separate what he did and talk about it and

977
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: make sure it's known because it's an important part of

978
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: making sure we don't move backwards. And guess what if

979
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 1: we don't focus on that, we move backwards, and we're

980
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: moving backwards right now. Yeah, absolutely, I mean, it's we'll

981
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: probably wind. I'm we're definitely gonna be talking about Hans

982
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 1: Asberger too at some point, which is another another Nazi

983
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, Um, But yeah, Nazis and Confederates. Um, this

984
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: is the kind of Confederate history I'm interested in telling. Um. Alright, Kada,

985
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: you I do, I certainly do. You can follow me

986
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: at the House of Pod on Twitter, and you can

987
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: listen to my humor adjacent medical podcast, the House of

988
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: Pod anywhere you listen to podcasts. If you want to

989
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: do something a little different, you can listen to my

990
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: recap fun show I do with Rebecca Watson, who is amazing,

991
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: and how the recommend you you check her out in

992
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,479
Speaker 1: her YouTube videos and that we do a show called

993
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: Girls on Boys. It is a fun deep dive about

994
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: the show the boys in it, and I'll explain in

995
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: it why I hate Alfred Molina with a burning passion

996
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 1: of a thousand wounds. Wow, yeah, I gotta thing, Sophie,

997
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: Sophie Ye, Jamie Loftus on the loftist set off the

998
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 1: loftist signal. Jamie Loftus fucking loves Alfred Milina. You are

999
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: now her short enemy I hate. Listen, we'll talk about

1000
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: not without my daughter anytime. Wow. Wow, we've got we

1001
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: have the makings of a podcast few cast. She's literally

1002
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: texting me right now and I'm You're safety. I will

1003
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: not throwing a few down. This is this could be

1004
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 1: the rumble in I don't know, like I'm literally six,

1005
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: this is happening. Yeah, yeah, we're spilling some mad tea.

1006
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: This is going to be an even bigger, an even

1007
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: bigger thing than my feud with Isn't there someone named

1008
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: Ezra at NPR? Yeah, Ezra Miller, I think that fucker. Yeah,

1009
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: you Ezra Miller. Yeah, I'm gonna suck him up. Or

1010
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: the Ezra who does the show Yeah? Oh wait, is

1011
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: there an Ezra who does the show Flash? But he's

1012
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean that guy sounds like he sucks, but as reclined.

1013
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: That's the NPR game. I'm gonna suck you up as reclined.

1014
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: Yeah that one. Yeah, bro, let's mess up Ezra. Yeah.

1015
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: Or you're not going to tell people to get colonoscopy

1016
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: because that's normally what you. Yeah, get your colon cancer screening.

1017
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: If it's appropriate for you, talk to your you need

1018
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,399
Speaker 1: to do that. Okay, Okay, that's fair. Yeah, I'm not gonna.

1019
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like it's like there's like so many

1020
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: like different things to talk about when it comes to

1021
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: colonoscopies and colon cancer screening, different versions of colon cancer screening.

1022
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: When you should start, what your risks are? Um, well,

1023
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: so let me let me let me run this through.

1024
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: Because I had I had a I had a I

1025
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: had a I had a lady at a at a

1026
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: at a yurt tell me that coffee enemas make that

1027
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 1: it impossible to get that cancer. And so I did

1028
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: that for a couple of years. And then I figured

1029
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: coffee enemas if they make it, if they'll stop me

1030
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: from getting colon cancer, you know, it'll do an even

1031
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: better job as Red Bull. So I've been doing that

1032
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: for like the last five years every day. Uh listen,

1033
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: this is important. Coffee is your friend. It is not

1034
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: a nanima. It is amazing. I love coffee. I did

1035
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: a whole episode with prop By the way, we had

1036
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 1: Deepak Choper's brother, who's a coffee efficient auto come on

1037
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: and one of and one of the greatest, like living

1038
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 1: American hypotologists, had them on all to talk about coffee. Great.

1039
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: Just don't put it. Don't put it in your butt.

1040
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 1: It will cause damage. At worst, cause you significant damage.

1041
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: At best, it will ruin your coffee and your butt. Okay,

1042
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 1: but I have, as I said, moved on to Red Bull.

1043
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 1: So that's oh yeah, that's right because the torain helps, right,

1044
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,479
Speaker 1: that makes it clean. Yeah, it's the chemicals that clean

1045
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 1: out the up in there. Yeah, it's like putting bleach

1046
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: in there. A lot of people don't get enough touring

1047
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: in their assholes. Um, no American with not with this

1048
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: American diet. Alright, everybody that's gonna do it for us

1049
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: here behind the bastards um at this point, probably donate

1050
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: to a bail fund. I don't know what's going to

1051
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: happen in the next week or so, after the whole um,

1052
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 1: after the road decision, but yeah, probably probably did to

1053
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 1: go donate to a bail fund by