Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in
Speaker 1: which we speak with some of the brightest minds working
Speaker 1: in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety.
Speaker 1: When the new animated series Space Jump premierees later this month,
Speaker 1: you won't be able to see it on a TV
Speaker 1: network or a streaming service. This show is powered by
Speaker 1: the blockchain, a new style of programming that counts my
Speaker 1: next guests as pioneers in this relatively new corner of
Speaker 1: the entertainment space. John Attanasio and Luisa Wong are the
Speaker 1: co founders of the Web three story Studio Toonstar and
Speaker 1: if you want to know what on earth a web
Speaker 1: three story studio is mist Brown. How we are back
Speaker 1: in John atas you know and so long co founders
Speaker 1: at two Star. Thanks for coming in, guys.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having as thanks for having us cool.
Speaker 1: So I want to start by noting that, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes when we hear about these new ventures doing something
Speaker 1: super cutting edge, people make assumptions like, oh, these you know,
Speaker 1: Johnny come late leads to Hollywood are trying to but
Speaker 1: you both have quite the resume, having worked on major
Speaker 1: franchises at various top studios, like Warner Brothers, Disney dream Work.
Speaker 1: So how did we get here? How did you get
Speaker 1: to this kind of cutting edge stuff?
Speaker 2: You know? The way we got here is that so
Speaker 2: we we met at we met at Warner Brothers, and
Speaker 2: we were in the.
Speaker 3: Digital media group there, and we were doing a lot
Speaker 3: of work really at the intersection of like technology and
Speaker 3: how tech was like impacting storytelling. And we you know,
Speaker 3: we saw on this will sort of like you know,
Speaker 3: rewind back to like early days of Web two, and
Speaker 3: we saw what was like we're actually on the team
Speaker 3: that we were talking about the benefits of like YouTube
Speaker 3: and sort of this new world and ecosystem where you know,
Speaker 3: creators could directly connect with communities and tell stories. And
Speaker 3: so you know, that really opened our eyes to like,
Speaker 3: you know, this idea of that storytelling and the way
Speaker 3: you know, creators and fans connect was was changing.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And I think the other thing that we noticed.
Speaker 3: Was that when we looked at the world of animation,
Speaker 3: it still really felt like this a bit of like
Speaker 3: a private club. I mean, in the sense of it,
Speaker 3: it felt like it was the same people, whether it
Speaker 3: was like writers, showrunners, you know, voice talent, and and
Speaker 3: we didn't see enough you know, new new storytellers, whether
Speaker 3: it was like you know, new ideas, new new concept,
Speaker 3: or just diversity of storytellers. And it was and that
Speaker 3: was always weird to us because like, you know, we
Speaker 3: were just like you know, we we call ourselves children
Speaker 3: of Saturday Morning cartoons.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, we just we just love the medium
Speaker 2: of animation.
Speaker 3: We know how powerful it is in terms of being
Speaker 3: a story you know telling medium, but also how powerful
Speaker 3: it is in terms of building you know, franchise I P.
Speaker 3: And it just was weird just that more people didn't
Speaker 3: have access to to the medium.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: And so I think you kind of combined those two
Speaker 3: things of like what was happening you know in sort
Speaker 3: of Web two with this idea of like you know,
Speaker 3: sort of unlocking animation for a new breed of storytellers.
Speaker 3: And that really was the inspiration for starting tune Star.
Speaker 3: And that was you know, we got the enough you know,
Speaker 3: courage to leave the corporate nest and and and start
Speaker 3: the company. And at the highest level, like that's that's
Speaker 3: our mission is to build you know, original entertainment I P.
Speaker 3: Using you know, we started out in Web two. Now
Speaker 3: we're using Web three, using new forms of technology to
Speaker 3: do it and really unlock you know, unlock animation for
Speaker 3: a new you know, a new generation of storyteller.
Speaker 1: Well, I know it takes courage, but it also takes investment.
Speaker 1: And so Luisa, how are you guys able to get
Speaker 1: some pretty big investors to come in and back world this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we so we have. We have some
Speaker 4: you know, pretty notable investors. Uh were our lead investor,
Speaker 4: Founder's Fund. We also have Snapchat as an investor, Great
Speaker 4: Craft and Baron Davis also one of our investors. And
Speaker 4: you know, like we really among others. Yeah, and I
Speaker 4: think we really you know, it was it really took
Speaker 4: like building these like proof of concept cases to be
Speaker 4: able to like go out and demonstrate and show that
Speaker 4: you know, this is this is a category of like,
Speaker 4: you know, how do you build this like tech stock
Speaker 4: to be able to produce things in animation very quickly
Speaker 4: and be able to you know, district viewed that out
Speaker 4: into the marketplace. And at this time, at the at
Speaker 4: that time in which we were raising, you know, it
Speaker 4: was very Web two centric world. And so we we
Speaker 4: basically built we self funded the kickstart to building the
Speaker 4: tech stock to then show that we had the technology
Speaker 4: to be able to do this like quick turn animation,
Speaker 4: and we ended up distributing all of these like little
Speaker 4: vignettes in Instagram, in Facebook and and and I think
Speaker 4: that's kind of like where it really really started to
Speaker 4: you know, kind of demonstrate that, wow, there's an appetite
Speaker 4: for original animated content shorts in social media. And then
Speaker 4: at the time too, there was Musically, right the pre
Speaker 4: TikTok too to the world Musically, and we actually built
Speaker 4: as part of our tech stack this like live streaming
Speaker 4: animated live streaming technology, and we had this blue chicken
Speaker 4: named Poppy who ended up being this you know, very
Speaker 4: big muser as they call them. And we had a
Speaker 4: live show on Musically that was getting you know, over
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand concurrent viewers you know on the show
Speaker 4: at the time, and that was that was huge And
Speaker 4: and I think that really kind of like moved us
Speaker 4: into you know, like a lot of notice. And that's
Speaker 4: really kind of where we had our first round of investment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was like the that was like really the Yeah,
Speaker 3: that was like the the moment where venture you know
Speaker 3: that that yeah, that really took us you know, started
Speaker 3: the venture path and it was that you know o
Speaker 3: g her name, did you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Poppy. So her name was Poppy and.
Speaker 3: She was you know, she was one of the first,
Speaker 3: she was one of the first animated influencers in social media. Uh,
Speaker 3: and just she took off and and I think that
Speaker 3: I think that really helped. It helped validate our thesis
Speaker 3: of you know, hey, there there is you know, you
Speaker 3: can build these characters direct with communities in you know,
Speaker 3: using technology and sort of new forms of storytelling. And
Speaker 3: then I think to see the kind of audiences we
Speaker 3: were getting, you know, not only loving the character, but
Speaker 3: interacting with the character in different ways. And again at
Speaker 3: that point it was like primarily through through social media.
Speaker 3: I think that really was a point where everyone's like, yeah, this,
Speaker 3: there's something there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So now we've got the background down. Let's fast forward
Speaker 1: to today where you know, later this month your is
Speaker 1: it third web three series is coming out in form
Speaker 1: of space Junk. So how did you get from this
Speaker 1: sort of social media driven model to what you're doing now,
Speaker 1: which sounds pretty different?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, I mean so it's it's like, I think for us,
Speaker 3: like the way we talk about it is that there
Speaker 3: were things that we learned in the in the like,
Speaker 3: there were things that we learned and I think, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, capabilities and and you know, expertise, these competencies
Speaker 3: that we honed in the Web two world that are
Speaker 3: you know, very applicable to Web three. I think, you know,
Speaker 3: probably even more so potentially in Web three than they
Speaker 3: were in you know, in Web two and social media.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know what happened is like, you know,
Speaker 3: we we we built this this you know, this production
Speaker 3: engine that you know can do high quality animation very quickly.
Speaker 2: We have you know a lot of you know, we
Speaker 2: have had a lot of.
Speaker 3: Reps building communities directly and large you know, these are
Speaker 3: large communities and on social media and they're highly engaged communities.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: And so we had that, you know, that part of
Speaker 3: the expertise. And then I think, you know, enter Web
Speaker 3: three and you know, we'll give you know, give a
Speaker 3: lot of you know, credit to to me Lacunas in
Speaker 3: our team because we saw, you know what they did
Speaker 3: with with Stoner Cats. So Stoner Cats that was actually
Speaker 3: the that was the the first animated UH series in
Speaker 3: Web three.
Speaker 2: We were the you.
Speaker 3: Know, and basically we came along partner with me La
Speaker 3: and then and her team, and we were part of
Speaker 3: their second animated series and we you know, we added first,
Speaker 3: like we actually we were The Gimmicks is the first
Speaker 3: community driven animated series in Web three, which is a
Speaker 3: little bit different than than Stoner Cats. But we just
Speaker 3: saw what they were doing with that project and we're like, wow,
Speaker 3: this is like, you know, such a great idea in
Speaker 3: terms of like this new this new way to get
Speaker 3: fans involved in helping you know, being part of IP,
Speaker 3: but also this new sort of form of distribution where
Speaker 3: you can, as a creator have more control over your story,
Speaker 3: over your IP, you have ownership over that. And to us,
Speaker 3: that was like, you know, that was very much aligned
Speaker 3: with sort of our DNA and our thesis when we
Speaker 3: launched the company. And again when we launched, Web three
Speaker 3: didn't exist, but we saw you know, and again this
Speaker 3: is rewind this is two years ago that we we
Speaker 3: connect did with them, uh, and so we're like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is great. We pitched Mila and thankfully, you know,
Speaker 3: she and her team came on board as you know,
Speaker 3: co producers for the project.
Speaker 2: And that's that's.
Speaker 3: Really you know, how how our our journey and Web
Speaker 3: three started. But I think sort of beneath all that
Speaker 3: was just this idea of like, yeah, these things that
Speaker 3: we've built are a great fit for Web three, and
Speaker 3: in fact, I think they position us, you know, they're
Speaker 3: even you know, they even position our company to do
Speaker 3: I would say, sort of next level type ipel ip
Speaker 3: building that we couldn't you know, that we couldn't do
Speaker 3: in Web two. And so I think that's I think
Speaker 3: that was probably it where it's like, yes, this is
Speaker 3: a thing where it's just a great fit for what
Speaker 3: we've built. And then we built, you know, over i'd say,
Speaker 3: over the last two years, built very deep Web three
Speaker 3: tech dev capabilities. So those are those are things around
Speaker 3: building protocols on blockchains, and you know, we built a
Speaker 3: social layer for the Gimmick, which was you know, we've
Speaker 3: we've been told was the for social layer and Web
Speaker 3: three and those are all sort of like tech dev
Speaker 3: capabilities that we've spent you know, the last two years
Speaker 3: building out.
Speaker 1: Okay, so now let's pump the brakes for a second
Speaker 1: and give the most explain it to my audience, like
Speaker 1: their six explanation of what we even mean here in
Speaker 1: terms of you know, a Web three powered piece of entertainment.
Speaker 1: I know you've got the community layer and all that,
Speaker 1: but I'm six years old, deuisa, Explain to me how
Speaker 1: you know, I'm assuming Space junk isn't as simple as
Speaker 1: oh I watch it on streaming service X or TV
Speaker 1: network Y. So starting with where do I access this show?
Speaker 1: And what are the things that make this different than
Speaker 1: what I might see on a linear network.
Speaker 4: Sure, so in order to access the show, you simply
Speaker 4: go to the website Space Junkies dot xyz and when
Speaker 4: you're there, there's actually a button that says episodes, and
Speaker 4: you click on that and you'll be able to watch it.
Speaker 4: It's not gated, so our projects are not gated, so
Speaker 4: you do not actually need to own a token in
Speaker 4: order to simply enjoy the show. So you would be
Speaker 4: able to enjoy the show just like you would be
Speaker 4: able to on television. You just go to the website.
Speaker 1: I don't pay, I don't know, do I watch ads?
Speaker 4: No, Okay, it's there. So just so that experience I
Speaker 4: think will feel very familiar. You just go to that
Speaker 4: website and you'll be able to watch the episodes. And
Speaker 4: so that's, you know, very simple. So the next step
Speaker 4: is if you're like, hey, I love this show. Now
Speaker 4: I'm interested in exploring, like, so what does it mean
Speaker 4: to become part of the community. So when you think about,
Speaker 4: you know, again the reference point of like how people
Speaker 4: usually consume their shows, they're like, oh my god, I
Speaker 4: I love you know, I love I love Harry Potter
Speaker 4: not not a show but a movie. But okay, so
Speaker 4: I love Harry Potter and I'm such a fan. Now,
Speaker 4: you know, as a fan, I start to seek out
Speaker 4: other experiences in that, you know, in that particular you
Speaker 4: know IP and so that's you know, that's what we've
Speaker 4: built into that website is come watch the show, you
Speaker 4: love the show, you enjoy it. Well, okay, there are
Speaker 4: other experiences. Now go deeper, and the going deeper will
Speaker 4: be we invite you to come create with us. Like
Speaker 4: what we what we know to be the case in
Speaker 4: these a lot of these shows or like franchises, is
Speaker 4: that people love to be able to, you know, come
Speaker 4: in and you see like fan fiction being created. Well
Speaker 4: we've and that's usually kind of like this like secondary
Speaker 4: layer that everyone kind of does on the side. Or
Speaker 4: maybe they'll like you know, go to other like apps
Speaker 4: or community boards and they'll just kind of do it
Speaker 4: on their own. Well, in this case, we've built that
Speaker 4: right into the actual experience. It's like, if you love it,
Speaker 4: come grab a token, come into the behind the scenes
Speaker 4: type of like experience layer. And now what do you
Speaker 4: get access to? You get access to a lot of
Speaker 4: you know, discussions from creators and the people who voice it,
Speaker 4: you know, like the get to see like the making
Speaker 4: of And you also have the ability to create your
Speaker 4: own stories, create your own backstories to the token that
Speaker 4: you hold, because each token has you know, basically a
Speaker 4: unique set of attributes that you know invite you to
Speaker 4: now create a story with it.
Speaker 1: But also monetization is coming in here. You are purchasing
Speaker 1: the n f T.
Speaker 4: Yes, you're purchasing the n f T, and that almostly
Speaker 4: it's your past to have all of these other activities, right,
Speaker 4: so you're you're able to create and for that, for that,
Speaker 4: you also have the ability to jump into things like
Speaker 4: we the activities that some of them are a contests
Speaker 4: to be able to have your stories like voted on
Speaker 4: in the winners of that you know contest will be
Speaker 4: able to have their stories or their characters invited into
Speaker 4: the main show. And that they'll be able to voice
Speaker 4: a character in the show and be a part of
Speaker 4: an episode and get IMDb credit in a production that
Speaker 4: you know stars John Heater, that stars Tony Cavallero. Like,
Speaker 4: that's a pretty cool entry point into an industry where
Speaker 4: it's pretty difficult to break in and to just simply
Speaker 4: have like you're name listed as part of the production
Speaker 4: in this you know, in this real you know show.
Speaker 1: Now, is this the kind of thing because you know,
Speaker 1: obviously you're not alone out there, although not to crowded
Speaker 1: a space either in terms of people doing this kind
Speaker 1: of thing. But from what I've read and seen, uh,
Speaker 1: sometimes this model has to do with you, the viewer
Speaker 1: who has bought an NF Do you now have an
Speaker 1: ownership stake in this show? And is that this kind
Speaker 1: of model?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 4: Actually, so it's not an ownership stake in the show.
Speaker 4: So we're not we don't position this as you're not
Speaker 4: becoming an investor in the show. The show is fully funded,
Speaker 4: it's being produced, it's you know, the show's existence does
Speaker 4: not depend on the NFT holders to come in so
Speaker 4: that we pool enough resources in order to make the show.
Speaker 4: This is really more like this is really like becoming
Speaker 4: this like VIP fan base that has all sorts of
Speaker 4: these like you know, really great perks in it. Right,
Speaker 4: So it's like like joining the Soho house, Right, There's
Speaker 4: there's some great perks of like you get access to
Speaker 4: this really great environment. You know, there's some concerts that
Speaker 4: are attached to it, you get to the the So
Speaker 4: it's really like that, It's like this, if you love
Speaker 4: the show, will come and be kind of like this
Speaker 4: next layer of a fan a supporter, and you own
Speaker 4: this token, and for this token, you really get to
Speaker 4: go deeper into the creation process. Being a part of
Speaker 4: the show. There are you know, like benefits of maybe
Speaker 4: being able to you know, see things that maybe normally
Speaker 4: you would see at like a comic con panel, Like
Speaker 4: that's sort of like more direct interaction with creators really
Speaker 4: and and outside sort of even being able to vote
Speaker 4: on where the story goes. These are all ways in
Speaker 4: which you know, like that you know, the fandom, the
Speaker 4: VIP fandom sort of like interacts.
Speaker 1: So the bottom line is you are basically getting this
Speaker 1: greater level of engagement than you would ordinarily.
Speaker 5: Yes, when we come back and we'll talk a bit
Speaker 5: more about how this model works, will be back with
Speaker 5: John Atanasio and Zula.
Speaker 1: We are back at the co founders of the web
Speaker 1: three story studio toon Star to getting into an interesting
Speaker 1: business model. Uh John, So, now that I know that
Speaker 1: I as the viewer, the fan and not an owner,
Speaker 1: I'm curious from the toon Star perspective, are you the owner?
Speaker 1: Are you the creator? Which how do you make money?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, so yeah, from from an so a toon
Speaker 3: Star we are the owner along with you know, whoever
Speaker 3: you know is participating in the project. So you know,
Speaker 3: in the case of space Junk, it's you know we
Speaker 3: we we own it along with you know, John Heater
Speaker 3: and Tony Cavallero and and Dominic Russo, who's the creator
Speaker 3: of the world.
Speaker 1: He's from he did work Aholic.
Speaker 3: Yeah so yeah, so he he he created Workaholics and
Speaker 3: so he and and he's the creator of space Junk.
Speaker 3: Uh and and so you know the people that are
Speaker 3: you know, owners in that i P.
Speaker 2: Or have you know a stake in that i P.
Speaker 3: That's that that's you know, how we we've structured it.
Speaker 3: Now there there is this other sort of aspect to
Speaker 3: it where and you know this is I don't you
Speaker 3: know too abstract of a concept. But we we like
Speaker 3: this notion.
Speaker 2: Of like we we talk a lot about like this
Speaker 2: idea of like nature versus nurture. And there's a little bit.
Speaker 3: Of this idea with like you know, the like these
Speaker 3: tokens or n f T s where it's like there's
Speaker 3: like a rare you know, you get to saying and
Speaker 3: it's like rare, and it's like how rare is it?
Speaker 3: And that determines its value and that's okay, And that's
Speaker 3: a that's a fine sort of like you know concept.
Speaker 1: That's how most people understand the n f T market.
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, that's how most people think about it. But
Speaker 3: but you know, and that's fine. And like you know,
Speaker 3: when we when we do stuff, there is inherent rare.
Speaker 3: You know, at least in the gimmicks the way we
Speaker 3: did it, there was inherent rarity in you know, some
Speaker 3: of the you know, the NFTs had like a you know,
Speaker 3: different types of rarity. But there's this other aspect. We
Speaker 3: really like it, and it's really like the nurture part
Speaker 3: of it, and the idea there is like you know,
Speaker 3: allow the community, through your effort, through your creativity, through participation,
Speaker 3: you actually can can become part of the world, and
Speaker 3: and that's through something that you've done, So it's not
Speaker 3: a lot like, that's not a lottery ticket. That's actually
Speaker 3: you know, work and creativity that you've you've contributed to
Speaker 3: the community. And we like that idea, and that's what
Speaker 3: we did with the gimmicks. That's the same thing we're
Speaker 3: doing with Space Shunk, where it's like you you have
Speaker 3: that you have that token, you can actually work your
Speaker 3: way in to the main canon. Because if you write
Speaker 3: a backstory or you create fan fiction that the entire
Speaker 3: community loves enough to vote you as like the coolest thing,
Speaker 3: then we'll actually bring that into the core canon of
Speaker 3: the world. And now all of a sudden, you do
Speaker 3: have a piece of of you know, what's being created.
Speaker 3: So it's it's basically we've created this opportunity for the
Speaker 3: community to earn their way in to sort of the
Speaker 3: core cannon. And we just love that concept because it
Speaker 3: is like, you know, it's not just again, it's like
Speaker 3: it's through people's sort of effort and merit, and it's
Speaker 3: also through like these really cool and different ways to participate,
Speaker 3: which we just think, you know, we just feel like
Speaker 3: audiences today behaviors changed, and there's an expectation to engage
Speaker 3: more with content and stories and participate in different ways.
Speaker 3: And that's certainly, you know, prevalent in younger generations, but
Speaker 3: I think that's also you know, older generations have sort
Speaker 3: of learned that too a lot through sort of like
Speaker 3: have been trained through social media. But we see that
Speaker 3: as a trend, and I think for us, it's like,
Speaker 3: all right, how do we sort of lean into that
Speaker 3: and give the community those kind of you know, those
Speaker 3: kind of opportunities.
Speaker 1: So I get what you're saying in theory, going back
Speaker 1: to the economics of what you're doing. I wonder, when
Speaker 1: you're hatching brand new IP and you're doing it at
Speaker 1: a place that is not a destination like a streaming service,
Speaker 1: how are you able to get enough people in the
Speaker 1: tent to experience all this to make this profitable.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, so a couple of things. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: where we have so our our tech stack does enable
Speaker 4: us to create and produce at a much lower, much
Speaker 4: lower cost cost basis. So so that in and of itself,
Speaker 4: just from an economic standpoint, puts us in a little
Speaker 4: bit of a different category in terms of we're not
Speaker 4: looking at an episode costing millions of dollars, right, So
Speaker 4: that's that's definitely you know, that benefit. And so that's
Speaker 4: really kind of like I guess, you know, like our
Speaker 4: our sort of like how we're able to make it
Speaker 4: work where you don't need to have millions of eyeballs
Speaker 4: on a piece of a piece of content is just
Speaker 4: simply you know, it's as simple as that it does
Speaker 4: not cost us as much as you would in the
Speaker 4: traditional sort of like model. And so and then yes,
Speaker 4: you have you know, the n f T paying members
Speaker 4: of the n f T base that are you know,
Speaker 4: going to be you know, buying into it and and
Speaker 4: contributing to that, so that you know, obviously then becomes
Speaker 4: a revenue model. Then the other then the other side
Speaker 4: of it is that you know, creating that sort of
Speaker 4: like community there are you know, now you have like
Speaker 4: a very avid fan base in which brands become interested
Speaker 4: in being able to come and be you know, sponsors
Speaker 4: of like say specific shows or like you know, having
Speaker 4: product placement in there. So the economic model isn't significantly
Speaker 4: different in terms of like, hey, there are these advertising models.
Speaker 4: Now it looks a little different in Web three because
Speaker 4: you have a smaller base, but avid fan base that
Speaker 4: also has direct reach. And because of the lower cost structure,
Speaker 4: now you're able to really kind of shape and look
Speaker 4: at like the economic model of how you make this work.
Speaker 4: Isn't all of a sudden this like huge behemoth that
Speaker 4: has a lot of sunk cost structures that will then
Speaker 4: you know, sort of say that that was kind of
Speaker 4: the big hurdle and animation in the past. It's like
Speaker 4: to green light anything, you sort of have to work
Speaker 4: through that you know, Excel spreadsheet and say all right,
Speaker 4: I got to make sure to hit X in order
Speaker 4: to even clear that profitability threshold to say yes, I'm
Speaker 4: going to do this you know episode or do this series.
Speaker 4: That's you know, changed for us significantly because of the
Speaker 4: tech stact that we've built and because of now you
Speaker 4: have these different ways in which you have monetization where
Speaker 4: you can you know, you have merch that you have
Speaker 4: avid fan base that has much higher conversion. Right, so
Speaker 4: you have conversion when you look at the broad base
Speaker 4: of like you know, the the TV sort of like shows,
Speaker 4: well you have millions of eyeballs and maybe you're converting
Speaker 4: one percent to buying a T shirt that looks significantly
Speaker 4: different when you're talking about a web based NFT enhanced project,
Speaker 4: because these guys are such huge fans, like you're, you're
Speaker 4: basically going for you do you have a million casual
Speaker 4: fans or do you have you know, ten thousand rabbit fans?
Speaker 4: And that's kind of the dynamic that we're now looking
Speaker 4: at and really kind of reshaping how we think about fandom,
Speaker 4: how we think about economic models of these like you
Speaker 4: you almost become like these like pockets of like smaller
Speaker 4: businesses that are built around these like ips that have
Speaker 4: the potential of even of scaling, but smaller is still sustainable.
Speaker 1: And how do you sell John someone you know, like
Speaker 1: someone creative from Workaholics? Do you join you on this?
Speaker 1: What's the incentive there? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean you know so I think.
Speaker 3: You know, part of it is, you know, the the
Speaker 3: there there are sort of like trends in Hollywood right
Speaker 3: now that that I think make it, you know, honestly
Speaker 3: make it easier. One is that you know it's you know,
Speaker 3: and you can see especially what's you know, sort of
Speaker 3: happening now. There are a lot of productions that you
Speaker 3: know are getting you know, canceled, halted things you know,
Speaker 3: will sit in development for extended periods of time. It's
Speaker 3: just getting harder and harder to get something made in
Speaker 3: the traditional system.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I think another part of it is, you know, there's
Speaker 3: there's a control and ownership aspect to it as well,
Speaker 3: because if you know, say you are able to you know,
Speaker 3: sort of get something at least maybe in a development,
Speaker 3: a lot of times you might lose creative control, you know,
Speaker 3: the the ownership that you know, the real ownership that
Speaker 3: you have, and what you created, you know, might not
Speaker 3: really be commensurate for, you know, what you probably should
Speaker 3: get for create being you know, uh you know a
Speaker 3: you know, a like a hit, a hit concept. And
Speaker 3: so I think those I think those trends are you know,
Speaker 3: now you've got storytellers and creators that are you know,
Speaker 3: honestly challenge frustrated, and they're looking for other ways to
Speaker 3: get stories made, get their stories told, have the control,
Speaker 3: have ownership, And honestly, I think it's a pretty you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know, but we're obviously but you know, we're biased, but.
Speaker 2: I think it's it's a fairly easy, you.
Speaker 3: Know, sort of like pitch because it's like listen, we're
Speaker 3: you know, here's a way to go do this. And
Speaker 3: then the other part of it, I think, you know,
Speaker 3: if you talk to people that have worked with us,
Speaker 3: they you know, I think one of the things that
Speaker 3: we're proud of is that, like they'll say, hey, like
Speaker 3: stuff happens, stuff gets made.
Speaker 2: And I think that's probably one of.
Speaker 3: The themes if you you know, if you were to
Speaker 3: talk to you know, all the creatives that we've worked with,
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, they stuff's happening, Stuff's getting made. In
Speaker 3: like you think about that and it's such such a
Speaker 3: basic concept. It's it's but that's how things should happen,
Speaker 3: like things should get made, things should you know, progress,
Speaker 3: because that's the business, you know, that we're in.
Speaker 1: That's also let's not forget we're sitting here having this
Speaker 1: conversation during the first week of the writers strike. Frustration
Speaker 1: is probably at a maximum. And I'm this is not
Speaker 1: a joking question. Does those does that create a market
Speaker 1: circumstance that helps you, guys, because people are going to
Speaker 1: be looking for opportunities or are you end in by
Speaker 1: the strike somehow or.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think, you know, it's where I think
Speaker 4: that you know, for us, we've always sort of you know,
Speaker 4: been the place where we're like if creators like want
Speaker 4: to create and they want to you know, make stuff
Speaker 4: like where where we say where the place to come
Speaker 4: and be like you won't you have an animated idea
Speaker 4: like like come and talk to us because you know
Speaker 4: we're we're going to be producing and we're going to
Speaker 4: be moving things forward. Because I think that you you
Speaker 4: talk about the frustration that happens, and you know, like
Speaker 4: the strike is obviously a very serious matter and it
Speaker 4: you know, has a lot of implications and and I
Speaker 4: think like if you talk to Dom, one of the
Speaker 4: things that you know, like he's, uh, you know he
Speaker 4: said to us, like you know, more than a few times,
Speaker 4: is like like it's unbelievable. You come into this industry
Speaker 4: as a writer and you hear stories like he tells
Speaker 4: the stories, and you know, like other folks that we've
Speaker 4: worked with have told the stories. Like the thing that
Speaker 4: is that that you never expect that you that you're
Speaker 4: very quickly like surprised by, is that you spend a
Speaker 4: lot of your career waiting. You're waiting for your you know,
Speaker 4: your year years for your series to you know come
Speaker 4: out of development in which you're just you know, kind
Speaker 4: of like long stretches of times of like oh, we're
Speaker 4: going to meet and we're going to talk about like
Speaker 4: maybe making the show, and then we're gonna we're going
Speaker 4: to pause and wait again, and you know, there's like
Speaker 4: just more consideration and so you spend so much time
Speaker 4: just waiting to see if something's going to happen. And
Speaker 4: so you know, for us, we're like writers strike or
Speaker 4: no writers strike. Who we are as a company is
Speaker 4: like we're not We're not sitting and waiting because our
Speaker 4: inherent DNA and I guess this is the benefit of
Speaker 4: being really you know, our DNA is like we're we're
Speaker 4: tech and creative, but we are still a tech company.
Speaker 4: And as a tech company, the thing that you don't
Speaker 4: get with a tech company is like you can't as
Speaker 4: a tech company sit and wait. It's like you have
Speaker 4: to build stuff. You have to put it out there.
Speaker 4: And you know this you know, very tech centric thing
Speaker 4: is like you got to iterate, right, you got to
Speaker 4: put it out and you're going to iterate and you're
Speaker 4: going to make the next version. You're going to make
Speaker 4: the next version of the product. And that's really part
Speaker 4: of the tech DNA that we have that's moved into
Speaker 4: our creative process, in our creative collaborations is that you
Speaker 4: can't wait to make stuff. And that's really kind of
Speaker 4: like for us with or without the writer strike. At
Speaker 4: the end of the day, it's like, if you're a creator,
Speaker 4: who who you see like speed is important to you
Speaker 4: and you want to put your product out there, and
Speaker 4: you want your stories to be made and stories to
Speaker 4: be told like we we should be we we you
Speaker 4: should be having a meeting with us.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to get your sense of the NFTE marketplace
Speaker 1: right now, particular to it being also a place for entertainment.
Speaker 1: It feels like, you know, we've in the past twelve
Speaker 1: months gone on quite a roller coaster rider NFT's worthy
Speaker 1: hottest thing. Yeah, and then that roller coaster came way down,
Speaker 1: maybe coming a little bit back up again. But you know,
Speaker 1: it kind of raises the question for me, like is
Speaker 1: the you know, are you attaching yourself to a distribution
Speaker 1: system that, for all its theoretical ram as, the market
Speaker 1: may not necessarily ever pan out in the way that
Speaker 1: you think it will.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, absolutely, you're right.
Speaker 3: I think there's there's it's it's almost an image, it's
Speaker 3: an image makeover. I think in general that like n
Speaker 3: f T S and and web threes need partly because
Speaker 3: I think the associations and and you know, like you know,
Speaker 3: I'll say, like, this is not just a Web three thing.
Speaker 3: This is like you know, we saw certainly what happened
Speaker 3: with ft X, but you know, there's a banking you know,
Speaker 3: you know, s VB was a different that's separate from
Speaker 3: web you know, parts of it separate from Web three.
Speaker 2: So there are things that just happen.
Speaker 3: Where you have bad actors in general, right, like you
Speaker 3: look through the history of of anything, and you're always
Speaker 3: going to have bad actors.
Speaker 2: Web three is no different.
Speaker 3: Like there are bad actors clearly, you know, cast cast
Speaker 3: a little bit of a you know, certainly a haze
Speaker 3: on on on the potential. But but but I think,
Speaker 3: what what people and this is what we what we're
Speaker 3: trying to do because I think, you know, because we
Speaker 3: are you know, we're committed to We're committed to Web three.
Speaker 3: We're committed to you know, AI technology, and for us,
Speaker 3: we believe in it and we believe in its potentials.
Speaker 3: And because we are you know, hopefully trailblazing and pioneering
Speaker 3: some some cool new stuff. Then it's incumbent on us
Speaker 3: to help educate and and sort of carrying matches like
Speaker 3: what does this really mean? And I think the challenge
Speaker 3: for web three today is that, you know, people don't
Speaker 3: know what it really means, or they they've gotten caught
Speaker 3: up in like, oh, it's an asset that I flip
Speaker 3: and it's you know, it's all about like speculation, and
Speaker 3: and they don't understand the utility of what web three
Speaker 3: is and how Web three really can sort of elevate storytelling, building, characters,
Speaker 3: community experiences, all those things, and that that that is real,
Speaker 3: that's real potential for Web three. But you know, I
Speaker 3: don't think anybody really understands that. And I think the
Speaker 3: problem is we're also getting caught up in like terms,
Speaker 3: and we're talking about it to too technically, and it's
Speaker 3: like put all that stuff aside, like let's just talk
Speaker 3: about and like you know, and again, like Luisa and
Speaker 3: myself are our background, you know, is entertainment. It is
Speaker 3: working at you know, studios, and we've been fortunate to
Speaker 3: work on some you know, giant you know franchise ip
Speaker 3: it's about the story, it's about the characters, it's about
Speaker 3: the creators, the people behind it. Make it about that,
Speaker 3: and then have Web three be you know, sort of
Speaker 3: the backbone to this and that shouldn't be the headline,
Speaker 3: but it it should be there, and if you lean
Speaker 3: into it, it's going to create all sorts of possibilities.
Speaker 3: But I don't think that should be the focus of
Speaker 3: the narrative because it's just you know, it's it's it's
Speaker 3: I think it's over complicating things and.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, like the thing that just uh,
Speaker 4: you know, we said, don't talk about the technical. I'm
Speaker 4: going to talk about the technical for a minute. I'm
Speaker 4: going to talk about the technical for a minute. There's
Speaker 4: there's NFTs and then there's Web three, right, so you
Speaker 4: have like we're excited by the Web three you know,
Speaker 4: technology and infrastructure and what it's going to do for
Speaker 4: for distribution, for you know, for production, for for you know,
Speaker 4: story creation. Because at the end of the day, like
Speaker 4: I guess, you know, like I'll give an analogy like
Speaker 4: when you have or an example, not an analogy, but
Speaker 4: like if you are a fan base of like anything
Speaker 4: that's out there, like you know, usually like these uh,
Speaker 4: these big projects. They usually have like, oh, these like
Speaker 4: fan experiences that they create, and it's usually like, you know,
Speaker 4: an agency creates a fan experience and it's great and
Speaker 4: people are like, oh, this is so exciting, so fun.
Speaker 4: And then when you know, kind of like the movie
Speaker 4: inherently sort of like you know, goes out of theaters
Speaker 4: and you know, moves into different cycles of that. You know,
Speaker 4: what happens to that fan experience because that's usually being
Speaker 4: run by an agency that's been tasked to create this
Speaker 4: sort of like you know, other experience to go along
Speaker 4: and the companion of the release of the movie. Well,
Speaker 4: you know, the studio stops paying the bills, and then
Speaker 4: the agency is like, okay, cool, Well we're done with
Speaker 4: that experience, and then it's probably either shut down or
Speaker 4: they just kind of like leave it there and it's
Speaker 4: in some like digital wasteland. And as a fan, what happens.
Speaker 4: It's like, well, if I really love this experience and
Speaker 4: I've invested time and let's say the story creation you know,
Speaker 4: our story creation portal was part of that experience, Well,
Speaker 4: if the agency shuts down or stops you know, managing it,
Speaker 4: it basically just kind of sits there. And flound just
Speaker 4: and I'm like, as a fan, well, what if I
Speaker 4: spent five, ten, twenty one hundred hours creating this and
Speaker 4: I really loved it, and all of a sudden, it's like, wait,
Speaker 4: it amounted to nothing. And to us, it's like we
Speaker 4: also have to really kind of think about our responsibility
Speaker 4: to what fans invest in the experience, because even if
Speaker 4: they don't give you a ton of money, the thing
Speaker 4: that they're also giving you is a lot of time
Speaker 4: and attention. And that is what Web three is going
Speaker 4: to inherently change about. That is like that in the
Speaker 4: Web three ecosystem won't go away, can't go away because
Speaker 4: of smart contracts. So even if somebody is like, okay,
Speaker 4: I'm not actively administrating anymore, you don't need someone actively
Speaker 4: actively administrating it because it is now powered by a
Speaker 4: smart contract and it will not go away. It's just
Speaker 4: it's forever locked and automated, so that if a fan
Speaker 4: wants to forever have that experience, they can. And that's
Speaker 4: the beauty of it is like it's like as long
Speaker 4: as there's a fandom around it, it will self perpetuate
Speaker 4: and it won't go away. It's not like this marketing
Speaker 4: vehicle that then all of a sudden like oh, bills
Speaker 4: get bills stopped? Well, okay, no, now it's digital wasteland.
Speaker 1: So I want to get a sense of what your
Speaker 1: long term vision is here for not just your company,
Speaker 1: but for Web three Entertainment. So in other words, are
Speaker 1: you guys counting on a world where Web three takes
Speaker 1: over and the old distribution models crumble? Or no, you know,
Speaker 1: Web three will just be sitting there alongside everyone else
Speaker 1: and it'll be one other thing you do. I just
Speaker 1: how how how much cool later am I drinking?
Speaker 2: What's the level of right?
Speaker 4: It's not you know, like I it's never going to
Speaker 4: be something that's going to like you know, like it's
Speaker 4: not about like destroying like old institutions or it's it's
Speaker 4: it's always going to be this like it's additive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's like I think
Speaker 2: it's complimentary. I mean we're we're we're seeing it as
Speaker 2: a as.
Speaker 3: A springboard you know for original you know, original ideas.
Speaker 2: For you know, new diverse creators.
Speaker 3: Also you know, for creators that have had success and
Speaker 3: truditional that you know, want to do something original, because
Speaker 3: I think that's the other part is like you know,
Speaker 3: your your earlier question of like how like why you know,
Speaker 3: why are we able to sort of like work with
Speaker 3: some of you know, like the amazing you know sort
Speaker 3: of like creators and talent that we are. I think,
Speaker 3: you know, another reason is like there there is like
Speaker 3: you know, prequel, sequel, reboot, fatigue and and you know
Speaker 3: this and you know and again like we come from
Speaker 3: that world and understand why that is happening, but doesn't
Speaker 3: change the fact that's that's that's the state of play.
Speaker 3: And and so if everything's a prequel, sequel, reboot, where
Speaker 3: do I go with my original idea? And I think
Speaker 3: that's what we're seeing Web three as like here here,
Speaker 3: hopefully is the birthplace, the springboard for original ideas, original
Speaker 3: IP again you know, new diverse storytellers also you know,
Speaker 3: traditional folks that have had a lot of success and
Speaker 3: use that as a springboard.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, to Luis's point, you get.
Speaker 3: Your you know, your rabid fans are in there, they're
Speaker 3: sort of building the IP and then from there, it's
Speaker 3: absolutely complimentary to why couldn't it.
Speaker 2: Then go to a streamer eventually?
Speaker 3: Why couldn't it you know, become a film and I
Speaker 3: think I think that traditional system is complementary to to
Speaker 3: Web three.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's an either or, And I do
Speaker 3: think future state you're you're gonna see, you know, much
Speaker 3: more of a fluid. You know, you're gonna you're you're
Speaker 3: gonna see much more of a fluid sort of like
Speaker 3: relationship between you know, traditional and Web three.
Speaker 1: I don't want to skip the fact that another distinction
Speaker 1: about Space Junk is you are going to have the
Speaker 1: first character voiced entirely by an AI voice generated software.
Speaker 1: Which sounds great, but let's what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 1: Is this character writing its own dialogue or speaking your
Speaker 1: dialogue that you've written? How does that work?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry, Andy, I'm afraid I can't do.
Speaker 1: That those who don't know what I had to continue.
Speaker 4: So, Yes, the character's name is well Becca, and so
Speaker 4: in the show she is performing the lines that have
Speaker 4: been written by by by Dominic Russo and so so
Speaker 4: in in the show itself, she's uh she's fully uh
Speaker 4: AI generated voice. So this is there's a distinction. There's
Speaker 4: you know, the voice cloning technology where it's based on
Speaker 4: somebody's performance, and then there's you know, full AI voice generation,
Speaker 4: so you know, kind of literally created in a lab.
Speaker 4: So she's performing, she's performing the lines and she's she's
Speaker 4: an AI actor and yeah, so that's her sort of
Speaker 4: in the show. Now outside of the show are our
Speaker 4: social media is actually being run by well Becca, and
Speaker 4: the social media post and the social media interactions that
Speaker 4: are being had is actually completely generated through AI engines.
Speaker 2: And then there's the well and then May the creative
Speaker 2: co pilot.
Speaker 3: Yes, so the other the other you know, I think
Speaker 3: really cool thing about well Becca is then you know,
Speaker 3: so those are you know, those examples are on you know,
Speaker 3: sort of on the production side, but then we're also
Speaker 3: using well Becca.
Speaker 2: On the community facing side, where she's going to be.
Speaker 3: Essentially your creative co pilot. So if you're in the
Speaker 3: community and you want to go, you know, write a
Speaker 3: rite fan fiction for a character or a concept within
Speaker 3: the Space Junk universe, you're going to go to well
Speaker 3: Becca and she's going to help you come up with
Speaker 3: you know, fan fiction. So now you know again, so
Speaker 3: she sort of becomes like you're you know, your your
Speaker 3: your yeah, your creative assistant, your creative co pilot to
Speaker 3: help you make make things as as a community.
Speaker 1: Member at the risk of falling off the cutting edge here,
Speaker 1: I have to ask, so where we stay and now
Speaker 1: at you know, the beginning of a whole new era
Speaker 1: when it comes to AI, generative AI, what it can
Speaker 1: mean to the creative process. My guess is you guys
Speaker 1: are thinking a lot about this stuff. Do you have
Speaker 1: at this early sense of the game, what you think
Speaker 1: this will mean for your company or the industry at large?
Speaker 4: We're we're super big question, We're super excited. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 4: so we've been We've been for a long time actually
Speaker 4: using AI in in the production pipeline through machine learning.
Speaker 4: So and then this is you know, this is our
Speaker 4: first foray into a more community facing experience. And and
Speaker 4: then obviously as like an actual performer in a show,
Speaker 4: the way that we see AI and and you know,
Speaker 4: kind of everything that we sort of do so far,
Speaker 4: as like AI is a great tool for creators, for
Speaker 4: you know, for people in the creative industry, because it's
Speaker 4: a way to be able to supercharge a lot of
Speaker 4: like idea creation, being able to help you you know,
Speaker 4: generate proof of concepts to just even see like, is
Speaker 4: this a direction that I want to take with something.
Speaker 4: So so for us, we're super super excited by now
Speaker 4: it feels like the ability to you know, get even
Speaker 4: more creative and to experiment with things that maybe you
Speaker 4: know might have taken us you know, weeks can be
Speaker 4: synthesized in days, and we're excited by you know, you
Speaker 4: take creators. It's like, hey, creators have like so many
Speaker 4: ideas that all of a sudden they can sort of say, hey,
Speaker 4: like what does this idea look like? Like, please synthesize
Speaker 4: it for me. And now what AI does is like
Speaker 4: it helps you kind of get fifty sixty seventy percent there.
Speaker 4: It's never going to be able to you know, like
Speaker 4: we've all seen the headlines, right it's like, oh, it's
Speaker 4: going to write the next you know, succession. It's not.
Speaker 4: It's not.
Speaker 3: But I think and I think that's like that I
Speaker 3: think that is the misconception because it's not like listen,
Speaker 3: AI is not a button you hit and out pops
Speaker 3: Harry Potter. Like that's just that's not you know, that's
Speaker 3: not how it works. But but it is this like
Speaker 3: it really is this like great tool assistant, you know,
Speaker 3: creative copilot. I think that is a good sort of
Speaker 3: like way to think about it. That does supercharge you
Speaker 3: as a creator, and when you see what comes out,
Speaker 3: it does it can do a good, good portion of
Speaker 3: the heavy lifting and you know, to Luise's point, maybe
Speaker 3: get you forty fifty sixty percent there, but then the rest,
Speaker 3: you know, if you if you really want quality output,
Speaker 3: something that fans are going to like love, and you know,
Speaker 3: like you want to interact with you're gonna have to
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to.
Speaker 2: Lean in and do that.
Speaker 3: Like that's just that's the human element. But it is,
Speaker 3: you know, a combination of both. It does like and
Speaker 3: we you know, to this point also like we've been
Speaker 3: using it on the production side for years and there
Speaker 3: are some some it's been really it's been really helpful.
Speaker 3: And I think that you know, I think longer term
Speaker 3: it is going to create new opportunities. Now, I think
Speaker 3: there's also part of where people are going to have
Speaker 3: to rethink what they do and there's going to be transformation.
Speaker 3: There's going to be transition there, there's no doubt. But
Speaker 3: I think longer term there are going to be new
Speaker 3: sort of like opportunities that that are created by this.
Speaker 3: But it's just gonna be a matter of like thinking
Speaker 3: about things differently. And I think the hope is like
Speaker 3: it's it's going to free up people to be more creative,
Speaker 3: like like spend your time on things that are you know, like.
Speaker 2: Original artistry or like pure creation.
Speaker 3: And that's where hopefully people can spend their time and
Speaker 3: you know spend you know, yeah, spend more of their
Speaker 3: their their their their work on on those kinds of activities.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of quite a ferment on the
Speaker 1: innovative side of Hollywood these days, and you guys are
Speaker 1: clearly playing in this playground space. Junk starts May nineteen.
Speaker 1: If you want to check out the future of entertainment,
Speaker 1: get in early, get an NFT. Thank you John Eluisi
Speaker 1: for coming in today, Thank you having thanks a lot
Speaker 1: for having us. This has been another episode of Strictly Business.
Speaker 1: Tune in next week for another helping of scintillating conversation
Speaker 1: with media movers and shakers, and please make sure you
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