1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: The Navy eventually realized they'd spent half the night showing 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: phantom radar echoes, and gave the whole debacle a name 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: worthy of this absurdity, The Battle of the Pips. 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah. 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: Not to be confused with Gladys Knight and the Pips. 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 3: No. 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: Who are Atlanta Georgia icons. I'm delightful, hello, and welcome 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: to Snaffo. I'm at Helm's your host, and this is Snaffo, 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: my podcast about history's greatest screw ups, or more specifically, 10 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: the show where I ask brilliant guests to help me 11 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: unpack some of the least brilliant moments in history and 12 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: in the process maybe understand ourselves a little bit better. 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: Today I am joined by a four time New York 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: Times be selling author, host of Tell Me More on PBS, 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: and the brilliant mind behind Kelly Corrigan Wonders. She's even 16 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: written a children's book called Hello World. She's wise, hilarious, 17 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: kind of endlessly curious, and just a delightful human being 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: who I adore she is, of course, Kelly Corrigan. Kelly, 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to SNAPU. 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: Hello, ed Helms, so. 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: Glad to have you here. 22 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: Today's delighted to be here. I'm really flattered. Thank you. 23 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: Oh. 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: Amen. We met a few years back, and I have 25 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: to say, as soon as I met you, I was like, oh, 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: this is a friend, like I've met a friend. 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: That's what I said. 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 4: When I called my husband, I said, do you know 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 4: who I spend a lot of time with today, Ed Helms. 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 4: And he's like Ed Helms, like from the office, from 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 4: the hangover at Helms. I'm like yeah, And I said, 32 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 4: I got to tell you, like, I have a feeling 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,919 Speaker 4: I'm going to know him for a long time. 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: I don't know how. 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 4: I don't know what note we started on, but there 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 4: was something about the very first conversation we had that 37 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 4: was much deeper and better than most first first interactions. 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: Amen. Yeah, You're like, you called your husband and you're like, 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: he's way less annoying than Andy Bernard. 40 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: He didn't sing for me. 41 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: He's actually he's kind of normal. 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 43 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: Kelly Gorgan Wonders is a phenomenal podcast which I highly recommend. 44 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: You're five years in over seven hundred episodes. The format 45 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: of the show, it's basically a masterclass in human curiosity, 46 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: in like exploring what makes us tick, what we fear, 47 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: and love and how we cope. And I'm just curious, 48 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: after all of that deep listening, do you feel any 49 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: closer to the secret of living a good life or 50 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: or is there anything like some crazy counterintuitive revelation about 51 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: the human condition that you've landed on. 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 4: More that sometimes when you're listening to someone a guest 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 4: on the show, they synthesize things in such a memory 54 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 4: way that it's almost like I've sort of known this, 55 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 4: I've sort of intuited this my whole life, but now 56 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 4: you just put the words on it. So two that 57 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 4: come to mind or this. We had this nervous scientist 58 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 4: on named Lisa feldmcbarratt. She's some top one percent scientists 59 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 4: cited worldwide, so in any discipline, so she's really respected. 60 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 4: And she has a great book called How Emotions Are Made, 61 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 4: And that's what we were talking about. And the line 62 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 4: she said was the best thing for a human central 63 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 4: nervous system is another human central nervous system, and the 64 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 4: worst thing for a human central nervous system is another 65 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 4: human central nervous assement. So pick your human central nervous 66 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 4: systems wisely, right, And that's the feeling that you get. 67 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 4: I mean, that's what happened when we first met really 68 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 4: is my essentral nervous system in your essentral nervous system 69 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 4: kind of wrapped up against each other. 70 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, this is a good Yeah. 71 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: But that's a lot of pressure when you're like on 72 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: the life partner choices. That's like, oh, geez, I better 73 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: get this right. Well. 74 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 4: I mean, this other guest said that we're an average 75 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 4: of the five people we spend the most time with 76 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 4: M and so that's sort of a related thought. And 77 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 4: then this other guest said that listening is so close 78 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 4: to love that most. 79 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: People can't tell the difference. 80 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: Wow. 81 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: And so if you kind of glue. 82 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 4: Those all together, you get some clarity about like who 83 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 4: you're looking for out there, and you're looking for people 84 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 4: who can be still, who can listen, who can take 85 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 4: it in, And that's the central nervous system that's going 86 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 4: to work for you, and that's the central nervous system 87 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 4: that's going to make you better. 88 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: I love that because I've always felt that profound insights 89 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: are things that we hear that were like these aha moments. 90 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: They feel like aha moments, right, They feel like things 91 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: that like, oh my god, what a revelation. I now 92 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: understand that better. But you're really just it's our It's 93 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: actually just affirming something that you already felt. The only 94 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: reason it's an AHA moment is because you know that 95 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: it's true the second you hear it, because it resonates 96 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: with something already in you to And I just I 97 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: love that because it speaks to this like kind of 98 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: like grand human intuition that we all share and that 99 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: we all could we all understand these fundamental truths. 100 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 4: Yes, so that intuition is being developed and honed by knowledge. 101 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 4: How you feel from podcasting that you're just full of 102 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 4: so much more information to draw from, Like I feel 103 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 4: like my inputs in the last five years have gone 104 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 4: through the roof. 105 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: I love that podcasting has emerged as such a vital 106 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: medium in our culture now because it feels like an 107 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: antidote to social media. It feels like an antidote to 108 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: all of the that just like crazy, flashy, quick, disposable stuff. Yes, 109 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: to your point, it has provided a great scaffolding for 110 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: my curiosity and connection with so many cool like yourself. 111 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: All right, are you ready to snafu, Kelly? 112 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 3: I've been waiting to snap foo all day, so you've 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 3: probably heard the phrase the fog of war. 114 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: It's a perfect metaphor the chaos and confusion and split 115 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: second decisions made with bad information. But in today's story, 116 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: that fog wasn't just metaphorical, it was quite literal. We're 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: heading back to World War Two and to one of 118 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: history's most baffling military mix ups, Operation Cottage. I'm assuming 119 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: you've never heard of this never. It was actually a 120 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: giant operation in the Pacific theater, but it is largely 121 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: forgotten to popular memory. Kelly, you may not seem like 122 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: the obvious co pilot for a war story to be 123 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: especially one this gloriously botched, but I actually think you're 124 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: perfect for it because your superpower is bringing empathy and 125 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: curiosity to human folly and finding sort of the human 126 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: through line in when things go sideways. And let's just 127 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: say this story is going to give you a lot 128 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: to work with, Okay. So we begin in nineteen forty 129 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: two when the British Army pitched General Eisenhower on a 130 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: bold idea a joint American Canadian commando unit trained in 131 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:33,239 Speaker 1: the specialized skills needed to fight in extreme cold. Why 132 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: because they wanted to hit some strategic targets in Nazi 133 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: occupied Norway, and as we all know, Norway is quite chilly. 134 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: They're saying. 135 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: I also, I just want to point out how nice 136 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: it is to sort of remember America and Canada teaming 137 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: up together and being just sort of like rowdy neighbors 138 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: getting in trouble. Yeah, right, y way, It's worth pointing 139 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: out that Canada does not get enough credit for its 140 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: role in World War Two. They were a powerhouse, like 141 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: cranking out weapons and gear and supplies and munitions for 142 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: the Allied forces. So way to go, Canada, We love 143 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: you up there. So Eisenhower was very into this idea, 144 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 1: and he tapped Lieutenant Colonel Robert T. Frederick to train 145 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: and lead what became named the First Special Service Force. 146 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: Frederick handpicked lumberjacks, miners, hunters, anyone who could survive the 147 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: rigorous training in Montana winter and still smile about it. 148 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: They trained in freezing temperatures, climbed cliffs at night, and 149 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: learned to ski with fifty pound packs. These guys were 150 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: basically human sasquatches trained in war fighting. 151 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: I thought a sasquatch and sometime, that's fantastic. 152 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: You're a Montana gal right, you spend a lot of 153 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: time there. 154 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: I know, I was. 155 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 4: Wondering if you're giving me a little hat tip on 156 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 4: that Montana thing. Yeah, we live more than half a 157 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 4: year in Montana in Bozeman. 158 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: And my family spends a ton of time in Idaho 159 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: where we have a lot of family, So we know 160 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: these rocky mountain badass types. Does this describe you at all? 161 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: Are you? Are you like an outdoorsy. 162 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: A little bit? 163 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 4: In fact, I have I have a word of the 164 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 4: Year every year where it's like I'm trying to keep growing, 165 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: you know, we don't want to stagnate. And the one 166 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 4: year my word was hearty, and it just meant like, 167 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 4: you know, embrace opportunities for heartiness, because people in Montana, 168 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 4: honestly are you know, like it was minus thirty seven 169 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 4: degrees once in the five years that we've lived there. Wow, 170 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 4: uh huh, and people still wanted to like meet up. Oh, 171 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 4: that's not going to happen for me, Like I'm not 172 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 4: opening the front door. 173 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: That's hardy bleeding out. 174 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 4: On the street in front of you like Uzari through 175 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 4: the window. 176 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: And if you inhale too quickly, like you get a 177 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: lung infection from frozen. 178 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 2: So no, I am not hardy at all. 179 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: All right, So this special unit is training in Montana 180 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: and the Norway plan collapses. Turns out it was a 181 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: logistical nightmare and Allied priorities were shifting fast. So what 182 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: was this badass new outfit to do? Well? Fate would 183 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: take them to another frosty theater of war, the Aleutian Islands. 184 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: Do you know anything about the Aleutian Islands? 185 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: I do not. 186 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: The Allusians are that long, sort of ragged tail of 187 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: islands that stretch nearly one thousand miles between Alaska and Russia. 188 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: It's that little the beard of the of the sort 189 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: of face that is Alaska. It's kind of what separates 190 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: the Pacific Ocean from the Bearing Sea. And they're home 191 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: to the Alute people who have lived there for millennia, 192 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: fishing hunting those brutal waters, since long before the emergence 193 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: of nation states and world wars. 194 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: Of course, do we know how many Elte people there 195 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: are or were? 196 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: The current population of the Elute people is estimated to 197 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: be around fifteen thousand across the United States and Russia, 198 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: with the majority living in Alaska. So they obviously live 199 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: there and carve out a living. But for outsiders, these 200 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: islands are a very punishing place. Jagged volcanic rocks surrounded 201 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: by frigid ocean, broken up by vast stretches of soggy 202 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: tundra called muskeg, which is basically nature's kind of like 203 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: frozen wet sponge. Add in relentless rain, near constant fog, 204 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: and temperatures that hover just above freezing, and you've got 205 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: one of the most brutal landscapes the US has to offer. 206 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: It's beautiful, but absolutely out to get you less the 207 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: elutes I know right well. Regardless of the unforgiving landscape, 208 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 1: the Allusian Islands were still American territory. So when Japanese 209 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: forces started snatching them up in June of nineteen forty 210 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: two to build airfields and submarine bases, let's just say 211 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: we were not amused. It might be a frozen hellscape, 212 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: but it's our frozen hellscape, dammit. And by the way, 213 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: hold on a second, don't we happen to have a 214 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: special team of soldiers trained specifically for frozen healscapes. Why yes, 215 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: Colonel Frederick, get your fancy new First Special Service Force 216 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: out there and take our dang foggy Islands. 217 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: Back Team Sasquatch. 218 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're on. Colonel Frederick and the first Special Service 219 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: Force actually missed the first World War II battle in 220 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: the Ileutians, which was the Battle of Atu, another island, 221 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: and that had been a very rough one. There were 222 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: less than three thousand Japanese troops on the island of Atu, 223 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: but it took American troops three weeks to fight through 224 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: the muddy bogs and capture the Japanese defenses up on 225 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: the Masi Ridges. And when it was all said and done, 226 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: the US lost five hundred and forty nine soldiers, with 227 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: total casualties approaching four thousand. This is a lot of 228 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: people and action going on in a very remote place, 229 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: and I think that's also part of what sort of 230 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: contributes to it's being more lost to our cultural memory. 231 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 2: Do you ever feel like it's just the most insane 232 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: way to solve a problem. I mean, it's just so 233 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: insane whenever you get like a thirty thousand foot view 234 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: of war. 235 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, we've all acclimated to the idea of it, obviously, 236 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 4: as we should, since it's always been here and may 237 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 4: always be with us. But every now and then if 238 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 4: I come to it fresh again, I'm like, wait a minute. 239 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 4: So these countries have a problem, and the only way 240 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 4: they can figure out how to solve it is to 241 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 4: take their eighteen year olds and put them against our 242 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 4: eighteen year olds and see who kills the most. 243 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: That's insane. That's so depressing. 244 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: It is it is it, And it often feels like 245 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: one side sort of forces the hand of the other 246 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: side because it becomes like an existential threat for one party. 247 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: I also find it fascinating the kind of Obviously, World 248 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: War two was so literally a world war, and this 249 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: is such a great example of something so far from 250 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: the European theater. We're up way up in Alaska, in 251 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: what feels like the most remote place ever. But the 252 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: Japanese saw serious strategic possibilities in putting little bases on 253 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: these on these on this archipelago, and the Americans were 254 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: just like, no, we have to stomp this out, my dad. 255 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 4: The Eludes must have been like, really, like, no one 256 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 4: has ever come here. 257 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: We have had this strip. 258 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 4: Of land, yeah, for thousands of years, and now you're 259 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 4: just going to destroy it all. 260 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. And a number of the indigenous population were captured 261 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: by Japanese as Americans and killed. Of course, they were 262 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: very much sort of caught in the crossfire. Unfortunately. 263 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: I wonder if they felt American. 264 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: That's a very but you wonder if. 265 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 4: In nineteen forty two, like how much they even knew 266 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: about the context of it, Like it was media reaching them? 267 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 4: Were they listening to radios? Yeah, but the paper reaching them? 268 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 4: Or was it like this just shocking appearance of modern insanity? 269 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, in their beautiful frigid I. 270 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: Would imagine, I mean some of them were brought back 271 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: to Japan as prisoners of war, and I would imagine 272 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: they're just like, what what do I have to do 273 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: with this? 274 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: Right? 275 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 4: Minding my own business, getting some orders from this whale, 276 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 4: and now it's wild. 277 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 278 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: So that was the Battle of Atu, on the next 279 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: Dilutian island, called their radio signals, campfires and bunkers detected 280 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: by US reconnaissance indicated as many as ten thousand Japanese 281 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: troops stationed there to guard their airfield and submarine base. 282 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: The US leaders had learned a very hard lesson taking Atu, 283 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: so for Kiska, they knew they needed a new approach. 284 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: This time it was going to be a massive operation. 285 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: Over thirty thousand troops, one hundred warships, and one hundred 286 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: aircraft converging on a single fog shrouded island. And at 287 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: the tip of the spear, of course, was Colonel Robert 288 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: Frederick's crew, now proudly known as Freddy's Fighters. And now, 289 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: for some reason, this entire operation was named Operation Cottage. 290 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: I don't know why, how did they come up with 291 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: these things? 292 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 2: I don't know. 293 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: Operation Cottage kicked off with two solid weeks of bombing 294 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: the ever loving ingas out of this island. American and 295 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: Canadian pilots dove through the fog at dangerously low altitudes 296 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: and pounded Kiska with bombs. Next was the ground assault. 297 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: Colonel Frederick's elite commandos were to slip ashore under cover 298 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: of darkness, secure the beaches, and clear the way for 299 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: the throngs of infantry waiting just offshore. It takes a little, 300 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: a little something special to be these like tip of 301 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: the Spear commandos. 302 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: Right, unbelievable, God bless them. 303 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, did you think that they were lumberjacks 304 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: and hunters like that? They were chosen for their tolerance 305 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 4: of temperature air temperature? 306 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, just hardship basically, yeah, yeah, outdoor hardship. And 307 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: also just just be like, hey, you're going in first, 308 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: like there's no infrastructure, You're setting it up right, You're 309 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: doing the thing. I just I think that's so incredible 310 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: and it's so funny to me when I think back 311 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: on my younger self, as like a sixteen seventeen year old, 312 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: I literally thought and I was like, I think I 313 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: could be a Navy Seal. Like this I was on, 314 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: I was a varsity swimmer. I was captain of my 315 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: swim team. I loved being the water. I was like, 316 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: I was incredibly physical, and I was just like, I 317 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: think I could be a Navy Seal. And meanwhile, my 318 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: co captain on my high school swim team went to 319 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: the Naval Academy became a Navy Seal. And the more 320 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: I learned about it, I just was like, I looked, 321 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, no way could I have done that at all. 322 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 4: I just in the last year, had dinner with a 323 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 4: Navy seal who had retired after thirty years. 324 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: I was trying to. 325 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: Acclimate thirty years. 326 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 4: Wow, regular old, boring civilian life right, And my two 327 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 4: observations were one he drank a lot, and he drank 328 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 4: fast too, that he he had to summarize things in 329 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 4: such a way that it was clear that there were 330 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 4: whole years of his life that he would never be 331 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 4: able to talk to another civilian about. And that maybe 332 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 4: they're so close is that they're doing and seeing things 333 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: that only other Navy seals see and do. Of course, 334 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 4: thus they are so deeply bonded. My dad's best friend 335 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 4: was a Navy seal, and what I thought an avy 336 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 4: seal was before this dinner was kind of what you 337 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 4: thought a Navy seal was when you were in high school, which. 338 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 2: Is like really good swimmers limited view. That's like one 339 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: hundred criterion. 340 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, god, it is. It is really wild. 341 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful, Thank you so much. 342 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 4: I don't even know what you've done while you've been 343 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 4: doing that and writing books and making podcasts and getting. 344 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: To know at helms and you. 345 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 4: I don't know what you're doing out there, But boy, 346 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 4: our lives don't have anything in common. Amen, making my 347 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 4: peaceful existence possible in some way that I'll never really get. 348 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: You are so right, that is that that is a 349 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: deep debt of gratitude we owe to all of the 350 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: men and women in uniform. It's it's really you're you're 351 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: so right, and so much of what they have done 352 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: and seen and experienced would probably benefit them to unpack 353 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: and unload with loved ones, but it's classified, like they're 354 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: not even allowed to talk about it. 355 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 4: I know, it's a tough setup. I'm telling you. We 356 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 4: have to take care of the VA like via. Hospitals 357 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 4: need support like that, that job we have to put 358 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 4: great people in that work like that. We really, really 359 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 4: the least we could do is take excellent care of 360 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 4: every veteran. 361 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: Then, right, how is this controversial? Like, come on, honestly, 362 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: what's get this done? 363 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 2: Yes, let's do Let's be right, let's do right by people. 364 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: All right, let's get back to this snafu. 365 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 2: I know, I know. Okay, we had thirty thousand people. 366 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: We got the fighters gone in first. 367 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: Well, so that's the plan. The plan is for these 368 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: for Freddy's fighters to go in first. But something strange 369 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: happened on their approach to Kiska. The fog of war 370 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: rolled in, literally a very thick fog bank with visibility 371 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: so low around the islands. The Navy relied heavily on 372 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: their new technology radar and on July twenty seventh, US 373 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: ships detected unidentified radar blips or pips as they were known, 374 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: about one hundred miles south of Kiska, and assumed that 375 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: these were Japanese ships. Have you ever been stuck driving 376 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: in like terrible fog? 377 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: Yes, I used to live in San Francisco. It's crazy. 378 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: Oh, it's so terrifying, it is, and you just feel 379 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: so helpless. But these guys are going off their radar, 380 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: and they just opened up a massive barrage of firepower 381 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: on these radar hips for thirty minutes, NonStop, and notably 382 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: nothing fired. Back when the moon rose and the fog 383 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: lifted around two am, there was nothing there. There were 384 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: no ships, no enemy, just empty ocean. As one historian 385 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: put it, the only damage to the American ships had 386 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: been caused by their own salvos. The Navy eventually realized 387 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: they'd spent half the night shelling phantom radar echoes and 388 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: gave the whole debacle a name worthy of this absurdity, 389 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: The Battle of the Pips. 390 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, not to. 391 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: Be confused with Gladys Knight and the Pips. No, who 392 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: are Atlanta Georgia icons and delightful? Yes, I'm quite wonderful, yes, 393 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: but this is we're just getting started with this snapu alas. 394 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: At midnight on August fifteenth, the actual invasion of Kiska began, 395 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: and the problems just started happening right away. Apparently Colonel 396 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: Frederick did not realize and I quote the current around 397 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: Kiska was outgoing, which I have to assume that means 398 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: he just timed the tides wrong. But either way, it's 399 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: just it's or maybe there's a giant ocean current sort 400 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: of circling it. Who knows. But some of the landing boats, 401 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: they're basically in these big, these like inflatable boats paddling 402 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: ashore for two miles of open water, and some of 403 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: them made it in under an hour, others not so much. 404 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: Frederick's own boat took nearly five hours to fight its 405 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: way against the tide, and one unlucky craft, overloaded with 406 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: officers and radio gear, got swept completely out to sea 407 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: and had to be rescued the next morning. But at 408 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: least they had the radio gear. I guess, I guess 409 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: if you're that team that do you sort of do 410 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: you blame the current or do you just pretend like 411 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: we saw something over there. We were going to get 412 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: those things. 413 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: Up here. You didn't see it. Yeah, it was as 414 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: big as a building. I don't know. 415 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: There were radar pips everywhere. 416 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 4: You just feel like when I hear stories like this 417 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 4: that I would just I'd be the first one to 418 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: declare defeat. I'd be like, all right, guys, it's great lost, 419 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 4: we didn't do well. I'm the jump of this water 420 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 4: and bring this thing to an end because I just 421 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 4: want to have the stamina. Oh no, they're in this situation. 422 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: My fingers are cold, my toes are cold. I don't 423 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 4: look good. I feel like my hair is a mess. 424 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 2: I'm going now. 425 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: I love you. 426 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 2: Tell me. 427 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: I feel like your priorities are a little off. 428 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: I'm just good. I don't think I'm the survivor. 429 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 4: If I get caught in a tree well or an avalanche, 430 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 4: I will like climb my way. 431 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,479 Speaker 2: I would just be like, well it was great, Like 432 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: fifty eight, that's like a lot of years. Don't worry 433 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: about it. 434 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. I think you would surprise yourself. Really, 435 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: I just have this feeling like you've got there's something 436 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: in there that would emerge. The second wave of landings 437 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: was the next day on Kiska's northern shore, the commandos 438 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: ran into even more trouble. They'd been promised a flat, 439 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: pebbly beach that was the recon easy in, easy out. Instead, 440 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: they ran aground on a steep, jagged mess of volcanic 441 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: rock and boulders up to sixteen feet high. The landing 442 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: stalled instantly as men scrambled to unload gear and climb 443 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: over terrain that looked nothing like the brochure. So it's 444 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: safe to say confidence and morale is maybe starting to 445 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: teeter a little bit. Yes, Now, there was one upside 446 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: to the botched landings, which was that no one was 447 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: shooting at them, which they expected, so the Japanese guns 448 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: on the island were silent as the commandos struggled ashore, 449 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: soaked and exhausted. But that calm did not last. As 450 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: Frederick's men pushed inland through bogs and rocky ridges, the 451 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: larger landing ships unloaded wave after wave of infantry behind them. 452 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: And here's where a series of tragedy starts unfolding. First, 453 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: that illusian fog it rolled in and just swallowed everything. 454 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: Entire units disappeared in the gray. Radios failed, and no 455 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: one knew who was where. Then American and Canadian troops 456 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: spotted movement in the midst and opened fire, convinced they'd 457 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: found the enemy, but they had not. When the smoke cleared, 458 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: a dozen soldiers were dead, casualties of a battle fought 459 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: entirely against themselves. 460 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it's so demoralizing. 461 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: It's a brutal one. I mean, but if you're in, 462 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: you put yourself in their shoes, and they're all they 463 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: all have the lesson of the Battle of Atu, which 464 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: was brutal. And the the Japanese fighters, of course out there, 465 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: they had a war fighting ethos called bushido, which was 466 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: sort of a descendant of the Samurai discipline, where where 467 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: like they are all in and just they will not surrender. 468 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: They will just attack and attack until basically they're. 469 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 4: You imagine how deeped up these people's bodies are. Talk 470 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 4: about some nervous systems. I mean, you've got to be 471 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 4: so jacked up, and it's and all your signals are failing, 472 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 4: Like you can't really see what you're doing, can't really 473 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 4: see where you're down. You don't really know where anybody is. 474 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 4: Like the adrenaline and the cortisol, I mean, you just 475 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 4: like a crazy physiological state to try to make a 476 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 4: decent decision in, and then the hecticness of it and 477 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 4: the sort of group think of it, like if you 478 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 4: shoot like the guy next we's going to start shooting, 479 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 4: then I'm start shooting, and then yeah, this is. 480 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: You are perfectly capturing the fog of war. That is 481 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: what the fog of war is. It's like, maybe we sit. 482 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: Down and just have a cup of tea. 483 00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 1: I know, just our nervous systems are over active, We're 484 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: not making good decisions. Yes, let's just everyone breathe, let's 485 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: be mindful for a second. But then of course you 486 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: instantly panic because you're like, I don't think the Japanese 487 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: guys are being mindful right now, they're trying to kill us. Well, 488 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: there was even more danger afoot offshore the destroyer USS 489 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: Abner Reid. Remember there's a hundred ships right in this thing. 490 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: This is a massive operation. Yes, isn't this kind of 491 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: like you're like what i'd like. 492 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 4: To see if I mean I'm recalling in my mind 493 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 4: like those old black and white photographs where you can 494 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 4: see a hundred ships in one I fall in one frame. Yeah, 495 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 4: I mean a hundred ships for ten thousand Japanese soldiers. 496 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 4: So it's like that's pretty strong, showing like we were 497 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 4: ready for Yeah, oh. 498 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: They wanted to shut this down. This was like, we 499 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: have to just close this door. So the destroyer USS 500 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: Abner Reid struck a Japanese mind that no one knew 501 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: was there. The navy knew there were mines, but believed 502 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 1: that the nearest mine field was two thousand yards away 503 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: from where the ship was, And this blast ripped the 504 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: stern clean off, hurling dozens of sailors into the freezing water. 505 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: Eighty seven were killed and forty seven were wounded. Many 506 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: were pulled from the frozen water or freezing water, I 507 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: should say. And then back on land, things are still 508 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: just eerie and off. Right. There are two days in now, 509 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: slogging through mud and fog, and something's off, and the 510 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: patrols just keep pushing deeper into Kiscus Hills, and there's 511 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: no gunfire, there is no snipers, there is no resistance 512 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: at all. And finally the truth starts to sink in. 513 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: There are no Japanese soldiers on this island at all. No, 514 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: the enemy had vanished weeks earlier, and all they left 515 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: behind were a few booby traps, some wrecked equipment and graffiti, 516 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: and they're abandoned bunkers, mocking FDR and Churchill. Thirty thousand 517 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: troops had stormed an empty island. 518 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 4: Oh God, ed I mean, I like, of all the 519 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 4: activity in World War two, top to bottom, from day 520 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 4: one till the final surrender, how many what percentage of 521 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 4: it was something like this? 522 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: This one feels colossal, Like I'm sure that this is 523 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: happening on a smaller scale, like every day in a war. 524 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: What is clear is that the fog of war is 525 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: incredibly real and present all the time, whether or not 526 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: there's literal fog. 527 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 2: And a bounce of judgment over this. 528 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 4: I'll tell you one thing not happening in my body 529 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 4: right now is I'm not thinking God, those idiots. I'm 530 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 4: thinking of course, of course, I would imagine that this 531 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 4: is the number one challenge when you're mounting these World 532 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 4: War in nineteen forty two, that all kinds of situations 533 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 4: on the ground don't match whatever your signals and indicators 534 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 4: are giving you in advance, and all kinds of resources, 535 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 4: including human lives, were wasted because it's just too hard 536 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,959 Speaker 4: to get a handle on exactly what's going on on 537 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 4: the ground. So anyway, I'm actually a wealth of knowledge 538 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 4: about this stuff. 539 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: It turns out, Yeah, you're an even better copilot for 540 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: this story than I possibly imagined. You're so well prepared 541 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: for this. All told, the US and Canadian forces lost 542 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: three hundred and thirteen men, sending thirty thousand men into 543 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: an empty island as a failure of intelligence. The invasion 544 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: of Kisko was a massive embarrassment, and overall it's just 545 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: an all too perfect example of the fog of war. 546 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: So what actually happened, Well, remember the Battle of the Pips. 547 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: It turns out, and we actually know a lot about 548 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: this because after the war there were a lot of 549 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: interviews with Japanese naval officers and so we actually got 550 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: a very detailed account of the Japanese side of this. 551 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: It turns out the night of the Battle of the 552 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: Pips was the night that the Japanese navy was evacuating 553 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: all their troops off of Kiska. Some historians think those 554 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: radar pips were probably Japanese submarines that it popped up 555 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: as a diversion and then dove again to draw attention 556 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: away from the rest of the fleet, and while the 557 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: US was shooting at the pips, the Japanese ships sailed 558 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: by in the opposite direction in a super tight formation 559 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: under complete radio silence. The logistics of the Japanese evacuation 560 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: is also fascinating. It was an incredibly disciplined and well 561 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: planned evacuation. The ships had reached Kiska, picked up all 562 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: five thousand or more of their troops, and sailed away 563 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: again while the US Navy was busy shooting at phantoms. 564 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 4: Five thousand bodies is so many bodies to move effectively 565 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 4: and efficiently, you know what I mean, the old deal 566 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 4: if you're going like from land to sea to I mean, I've. 567 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: Talked about this a lot over the years. I have ADHD, 568 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: and logistics just make me crumble, like the like the 569 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: more complex and the more people and the more things 570 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: are involved in a logistical plan, the more I just 571 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: like implode. I can't barely comprehend it, let alone plant 572 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: and then let alone execute it. I sort of like 573 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: freeze and so all of these like mass, like just 574 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: the logistics of war are so overwhelming. It's to your point, 575 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: it's crazy. 576 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: And with the technology of the day, sure, it's just 577 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 4: like I traveled for a year when I was twenty 578 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 4: five in nineteen ninety two, and I didn't have a 579 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 4: credit card, and I didn't have a cell phone, and 580 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 4: my parents didn't know what country I was in. They 581 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 4: could not have found me and I but my goal 582 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 4: was to call once a month for twelve months. So 583 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 4: for twenty nine days in a row, my parents didn't 584 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 4: know where I was, and I didn't really know where 585 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 4: I was, you know, and I didn't know where I 586 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 4: was going next. 587 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: And it was okay with everybody. 588 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 2: Everyone's alsos okay, because that's all there was. 589 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 4: And so if you think about how many ways things 590 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 4: could go wrong with a kid traveling the world with 591 00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 4: like a paper map, and that's it, and then you 592 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 4: multiply that by five thousand people, Like. 593 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 2: How did they even say what time they were going 594 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: to get on the boat. It's like mind boggling. So 595 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 2: I'm with you. 596 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I have ADHD that I know of, but 597 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 4: I I am. 598 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 2: Not the logistics person in my life. 599 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: Ever, So obviously this was a huge, colossal sort of 600 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: military fail. But the soldiers themselves maybe didn't mind so much, 601 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: because one soldier said afterwards that he felt the most 602 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: horror imagining what would have happened if the Japanese forces 603 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: had been there and had not abandoned the island. He said, quote, 604 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: I think few realize how close to a suicidal assignment 605 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: our part of the operation was. Another soldier later told reporters, quote, 606 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: My reaction, since I didn't have a strong death wish 607 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 1: at age twenty one, was relief. American and Canadian troops 608 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: spent the next few days kind of just shaking it off. 609 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: They reportedly were riding around the beaches on left behind 610 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: motorcycles and trucks. And I think that part's actually relatable, 611 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: Like if you're expecting to have a freezing cold battle 612 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: in tundrous swamps, and then all of a sudden, you 613 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,720 Speaker 1: just have a bunch of free time and some empty jeeps, 614 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: like you're gonna blow off some steam, right. 615 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,720 Speaker 2: And your kids you're nothing. You're kids. 616 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: You're right, these are kids exactly. So what became of 617 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: Freddy's Fighters, the first Special Service Force after they shook 618 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: off all this fog? Well after their unglamorous start, they 619 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: were sent to Europe and became one of the most 620 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: effective Allied units. They were sent to attack the Italian 621 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: fascists in southern Europe, and during the D Day landings 622 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: in Normandy, Freddy's fighters were knocking the Nazis out of Rome. 623 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: As for Robert Frederick himself, he was eventually promoted to 624 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: brigadier general. He was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross twice 625 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: and got a full eight Purple Hearts for being wounded 626 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: in combat, which is well done. Wild Yeah. Supposedly Churchill 627 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 1: called him the greatest fighting general of all time, which 628 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: is that's that's serious, that's a serious compliment. Yes, And 629 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: he said that if the Allies had a dozen more 630 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: generals like Robert Frederick Hitler would have been beaten in 631 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:40,479 Speaker 1: nineteen forty two. That's our story, Kelly Corrigan's Fred God 632 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: blessed Fred Robert Frederick Fred God. Yeah. I just love 633 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: having walked through this with you and feeling it is 634 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: so easy to kind of take a kind of high 635 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: falutint scornful approach to some of these terrible mistakes. But 636 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: but just just as I suspected. 637 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 3: You. 638 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: Are bringing so much humanity and compassion and curiosity to 639 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: the experience of these people in this crazy situation. I 640 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: love that and I appreciate that very much. And this 641 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: is kind of my favorite part. Are there any sort 642 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: of larger takeaways that that you're feeling or does that 643 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: this conjures for you just in a sort of like 644 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: grand kind of human nature context. 645 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I feel that it is imperative that we 646 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 4: find a different way of solving these problems. It's just 647 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 4: that the story is so insane that it draws attention. 648 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,879 Speaker 4: It draws the eye to the ludicrous nature of war 649 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 4: as a problem solving method. Yeah, it's ludicrous. It's ludicrous 650 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 4: to send these poor kids over to try to shoot 651 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 4: and kill other people's poor kids. Like, put the generals 652 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 4: in the room. I have presidents in the room. But 653 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 4: why don't we let one leader try to kill another leader? 654 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 4: Why do we have to do it with all these kids, 655 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 4: Like as if they're like, if that's the way we're 656 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 4: going to solve problems, why don't we do it with 657 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 4: five on five v five instead of one hundred thousand 658 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 4: via a hundred thousand. 659 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: We're so thirsty for violence as a species, I know. 660 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 2: It's really in us. It's really in us. 661 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 4: That is another thought I was having, which is that 662 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 4: these lumberjacks or these hunters, you wonder how difficult or conversely, 663 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 4: how very easy it was to sell them on becoming 664 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 4: the tip of the spear in these ungodly conditions and 665 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 4: join Freddy's fighters. Like I it seems like it wouldn't 666 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 4: be that hard to get a narrative going that could 667 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 4: make these lumberjacks feel like this is their shot at heroism, 668 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 4: seeing the world and putting it in that do or 669 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 4: die context, like that historic context of that war. You 670 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 4: could probably get a lot of people to do a 671 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 4: lot of things that on a different day, with a 672 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 4: clearer head, they would say, I'm not participating in that. 673 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 4: I'm not going to go destroy somebody's land. I'm not 674 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 4: going to go kill somebody's kid. 675 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: Right. 676 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 2: You can't make me do that, Right. 677 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: Isn't there the version you're talking about where where the 678 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: generals or the leaders just say, hey, well let's let's 679 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: avoid this completely again. I mean, this is this feels 680 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 1: a little pie in the sky when one party does 681 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: present an existential threat to your country, like you and 682 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,399 Speaker 1: conversation just won't There is no conversation with madness, right, 683 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: Hitler is just mad. 684 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 2: Right, So if you want to go like. 685 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 4: If there is no conversations as a solution, and you 686 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 4: and you feel you must go to violence. 687 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 2: Why can't we hit five people, five of our people 688 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 2: versus five of their people? 689 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, for one on one. 690 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 2: Do one hundred thousand and one hundred thousand? 691 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the destruction, Like why we had to 692 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 4: break down all these buildings, these people's apartments and like 693 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 4: blow up their kids' cribs and send their baby formula 694 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 4: to the high heavens with a bomb. 695 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 2: Like, it's just it's crazy. 696 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 4: So that was one thought I was having over and 697 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 4: over again, which of course is totally pie in the 698 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 4: sky and it'll never happen, and I know that. 699 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 2: With all my heart. 700 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 4: Sadly, the other thing I was thinking about is because 701 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 4: of like the rousing rhetoric that you would probably have 702 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,399 Speaker 4: to use to get a normal person to engage like this, 703 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 4: a normal person to take a gun and shoot another person. 704 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 4: It must be so demoralizing when the people who talked 705 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 4: you into this grand effort turn out to be just 706 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 4: normal joshmos who screwed up all the logistics. 707 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just imagine that that information starting to ripple 708 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: through the ranks. I mean, I'm sure there's a colossal relief, 709 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: but then once that relief kind of washes out. It's like, 710 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 1: I gotta get out of the hell. Like what that hell? 711 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 2: This doesn't seem so grand anymore. 712 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: I want to just kind of raise one one sort 713 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:38,480 Speaker 1: of final thought and get your take, which is the 714 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: fog of war, and in particular, how the fog of 715 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 1: war was was so present in this in this tragic story. 716 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: This is obviously a grand scale, but it's a it's 717 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 1: a rather poignant metaphor for an individual experience when we're 718 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,280 Speaker 1: in our own fog, whatever that fog is, anxiety, fresh 719 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: and grief or rage or whatever fog you might find 720 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: yourself in. You know, just as these soldiers wound up 721 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: shooting at each other. Isn't it fascinating how we can 722 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: end up fighting ourselves in trying to reach our goals 723 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: and sort of shooting ourselves in the foot when we're 724 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 1: in that fog. 725 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I think about this a lot and it 726 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 4: comes up on my podcast a lot, which is that 727 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,919 Speaker 4: you know, when the water's rough, sit down, don't stand 728 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 4: up in a rocky boat, meaning like when you are 729 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:51,439 Speaker 4: being flooded with cortisol adrenaline. This is not a time 730 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 4: to make decisions. Even when you're being flooded with the 731 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 4: good stuff like dopamine. There's serotonin. Yeah, not a time 732 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 4: to make decisions. Decisions are to be made when you're 733 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 4: at your most level and neutral. And so I would 734 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 4: say that those sort of physiological states are mirroring this 735 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,239 Speaker 4: fog of war, like that you're in your own little 736 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:14,839 Speaker 4: fog of war. 737 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: Just hate it be still, yeah, which is so hard 738 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: because in those moments, our mental wiring just wants action. 739 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: It does it wants to solve that fog with some action. 740 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 4: And I think that one of the gifts that I 741 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 4: am perceiving as I get into my late fifties is 742 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 4: I am more comfortable with unpleasant emotions because I am 743 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,919 Speaker 4: absolutely sure. Finally, after decades of not being so sure, 744 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 4: I guess I am absolutely sure that no feeling is final. 745 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 4: So I know it will dissipate, and I know that 746 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 4: it's like kind of like me talking to myself and 747 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 4: making stuff up, and so I just know that in 748 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 4: not that many minutes, I'm going to feel different, whether 749 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 4: I manage the emotion or not. You just can't stay 750 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 4: in that heightened state for. 751 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: That, and that's reassuring. There's there's comfort in that that 752 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,879 Speaker 1: fog will lift. 753 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 4: Totally it's just weather. In fact, weather is probably the 754 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,280 Speaker 4: greatest metaphor, which I guess is what you're really doing 755 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 4: in this final beat, is that weather is the perfect 756 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 4: metaphor for our emotions. That like no sunny day lasts, 757 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 4: no rainy day lasts, the fog won't last. The fog 758 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 4: will come back, it will be cold, it will be warm, 759 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,399 Speaker 4: it will be just right, it will be awful, and 760 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 4: on and on and on and so it goes externally 761 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 4: and internally. 762 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: Amen, Kelly Corgan. I feel like that's a perfect place 763 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: to wrap this up. I'm so grateful that you came 764 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 1: on and you brought it like you brought. You brought 765 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: the Corrigan big time, and I really appreciate it. This 766 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: was really fun. Thank you, Kelly. Of course. Snafu is 767 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,000 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snaffo Media, a partnership 768 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company, post 769 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: production and creative support from good Egg Audio. Our executive 770 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,240 Speaker 1: producers are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, 771 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino 772 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,399 Speaker 1: and Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our 773 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from 774 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative 775 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson 776 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,440 Speaker 1: and the Collected works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Meghan 777 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: Halson and Caroline Johnson. Especially thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, 778 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: Lane Kline, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, 779 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,839 Speaker 1: Kerry Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't 780 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snaffoo, 781 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,720 Speaker 1: The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available 782 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: now from any book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook 783 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.