1 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisen and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, it's great 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: to have you back. Thank you, thank you. I've come 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: back refreshed and reinvigorated for another year of Odd Lots Podcast. 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: I am extremely excited about another year of doing the 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: show with you. I was very sad to not have 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: you for the last two episodes, So yeah, I'm very 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: excited that we're back at it in the new year. No, 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: thank you. You know. The flip side of not doing 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: the Odd Lots Podcast with you is that I get 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: to listen to them on my own time, which is 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: something I don't do when I record them with you. Obviously, 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 1: good point. So that'll be my excuse when I when 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: I take off a few weeks. At some point, I'll 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: just say, oh, it's because I really just wanted to 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: give them a fresh listen and not hear them biased 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: by my own partic the patient. I'm sure that will 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: be the case, do you know. Obviously we talk a 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 1: lot about bubbles on the show. Last year we had 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: a whole series about various bubbles throughout history, and then 21 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: we had a bunch of episodes I think about bubbles 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: that weren't even part of the series. I'm sure we'll 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: have many more. It's just one of our recurring themes 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: for obvious reasons. Yeah, bubbles remain I think personally, probably 25 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: the most interesting phenomenon that we observe in markets, because 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: there's all this collective behavior and sort of psychology involved 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: in every single one. Right. I think it's like when 28 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: psychology takes hold to such a dominant degree and the 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: underlying reality of what's going on seems to exert just 30 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: such a minimal force in the underlying market. I think 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: that's a good way of describing it. The other interesting 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: thing about it is, of course, you never know when 33 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: a bubble is going to pop, right, because a bubble 34 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't pop is also known is a really good 35 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: bull market. Right. It's one of these things where we 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: only can definitively say something it's a bubble in the aftermath. Yes, 37 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: all bubbles are retrospective in nature. Well put, So, you know, 38 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: the thing is, we talked a lot about these from 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: a sort of like you know, market perspective, like what 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: are the signs that something is in a bubble and 41 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: what are price movements that suggest something is in a bubble, 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: and you know, that is certainly one way to examine it. 43 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: But what we haven't done is much is talk about, 44 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: like what it's like to actually live your life through 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: a bubble, the perspective of a person who is just 46 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: sort of right in the middle of it, someone right 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: on the inside, as opposed to a speculator. Right. I 48 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: really like this idea because it gets again to that 49 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: behavioral aspect of bubbles. How do people actually behave and 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: live when they are going through this kind of episode. 51 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: So today I'm very excited We're going to be uh 52 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: talking with our colleague Dash Bennett. He works with us 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: here in Bloomberg. He's an editor, he does social media 54 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: for us, he does a bunch of other stuff. We 55 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: both worked with him for many years. And what's interesting 56 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: and why I'm excited about talking to Dash is that 57 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: he lived through the dot com bubble. Like so all 58 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: this stuff that we talked about people are trading it 59 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: in the stocks. He was actually working for one of 60 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: these companies whose stock went completely insane and then totally imploded. Right. 61 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: And the way this podcast is coming about is we 62 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: were having a sort of casual conversation on our internal 63 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: messaging system, and Dash started saying some really interesting and 64 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: slightly outrageous things about what his whole experience was like, 65 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: and we thought, we need to dig into the details 66 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: of this right exactly. So, without further ado, Dash Bennett, 67 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. Thank you good 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: to be here. So let's get started with your history. 69 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: Tell us where you were in nine what so we 70 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: we already set it up. You were working for one 71 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: of the companies that were sort of most emblematic of 72 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: the dot com era. What was the company, how did 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: you join them, and what were you doing for them? Yeah, 74 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of a became a legendary story of the 75 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: dot com bubble bursting. So at the end ofning of 76 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: two thousand, I was actually living in New York and 77 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: I had oppen out of college. Long I was like 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: trying to become a writer and it wasn't going very well. 79 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: And then a friend of mine from high school, who 80 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: was he went to the same high schools, maybe he 81 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: was a few years older, emailed me out of the 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: blue and said, hey, we're looking for writers. I worked 83 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: for this company excited Home, which I had never heard of. 84 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: I sort of knew what Excite was because that was 85 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: the big web portal, like a big rival to Yahoo. 86 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: It was like a second tier Yahoo. Yeah. So about 87 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: a year earlier, at the beginning of ninety nine, it 88 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: merged with at Home, which was a broadband I s 89 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: P basically and where they sold internet connections through cable companies, 90 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: and they had separate deals with the cable companies. Now 91 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: it's all run by the cable companies back and at 92 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: Home was its own thing. So they merge and that 93 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: was a huge thing at the beginning of ninety nine, 94 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: and their stock went through the roof. So they had 95 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: all this money, and so they started creating content teams 96 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: to create web content for their portal that would be 97 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: exclusive to at Home. And so my friend had been 98 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: working there for a few months and he was like, 99 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: I'm writing about sports. I know you know about sports. 100 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: We need people, why don't you come out here. So 101 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: since I was looking for work, so they flew me 102 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: out there and put me up for two weeks as 103 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: a test as like an interview, which was crazy. So 104 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: that's already crazy, the fact that they two weeks for 105 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: an Yeah, me, a person who had at that time 106 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: had no Byelines. Had no experience as a paid professional writer, 107 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: so that, yeah, they flew me out there. They gave 108 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: me like a two week tryout, basically hired me as 109 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: a contractor. It went really well, so then they hired 110 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: me full time. So again this just give you more 111 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: sense of like how much money is playing around. First 112 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: of all, they were paying me a salary that I 113 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: never thought I would make at that stage of my life. 114 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: But then they flew me out to their office was 115 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: in Redwood City, California, which is just south the Sound Cisco. 116 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: They put me up for thirty days in a temporary housing. 117 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: They got me a rental car for thirty days, They 118 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: hired a broker to help me find an apartment. They 119 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: paid for all of that. So that was just sort 120 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: of the first sign that this company has a lot 121 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: of money and they're spending it very quickly. And the 122 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: team I was on was growing. They were adding people 123 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: all the time. There was about at its peak was 124 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: about thirty people of writers, web designers, artists, all working 125 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: to just create this sort of like little mini newsroom 126 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: inside this technology company. So two things on that when 127 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: you heard about this company and you heard about the position, 128 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: were you thinking at all that this was a sort 129 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: of risky venture. And um, was there any sense that 130 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: you were working for a technology or a dot com 131 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: company or did you just think this is a sort 132 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: of run of the mill content provider. No, it very 133 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: much had the like all the stereotypical traits of like 134 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: a dot com phenomenon thing where we had a slide 135 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: in our office, one of those like that's it went 136 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: from the second floor down to the first floor. You know, 137 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: when I showed up at the office, it was very 138 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: clear that it had It had all those like things 139 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: you always hear about. There was foosball table and ping 140 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: pong tables, and there was free food everywhere. When I 141 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: first started, there was you know, they brought in lunch 142 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 1: once a week every Wednesday, we got a free everyone 143 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: our team got a free lunch. And there were vending 144 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: machines all over the offices but they were all free. 145 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: So all the sodas and snacks, and we had bagels 146 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: every morning, and so it didn't feel like a real company, 147 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: but it also didn't feel like this was the thing. 148 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: We were just trying to get as much as we 149 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: could before it all fell apart. At the time when 150 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: I started. It was very much like this is the 151 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: future of the Internet, This is the future of the world. 152 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: That's my memory of it too. I mean I wasn't 153 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: working for any dot com at the time. I wasn't 154 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: I didn't even have a job, But I remember like 155 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: at the time, it didn't feel like, oh, this is crazy, 156 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: it's about to end. It felt more like this is 157 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: the future. Like everyone believed like this is the new economy. 158 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: We were in a new year of prosperity, businesses of 159 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: the future or going to have this sort of freewheeling vibe. 160 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: So in retrospect you look at the slide and you say, oh, 161 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: well that was obvious excess. But in that moment, it's like, no, 162 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: the office of the future will be this fun place 163 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: to play around. Yeah it was. It was. There were 164 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: no cubicles, it was very much open off and a 165 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: lot of those things you still see today as like 166 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: the hallmark of a young, exciting company. It's all the 167 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: same things they were doing twenty years ago. We have 168 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 1: an open office here Bloomberg, and we have a great 169 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: snack bar. Sadly, we do not have a slide from 170 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: the would be Laura, right, that's our one area of restraints. 171 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: But this gets to one of the big lessons that 172 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: we learned from our Bubble series, which is that every 173 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: bubble comes with a convincing story that you have to 174 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: believe in. So Dash, I know you mentioned it already, 175 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: but could you maybe just expound a little bit on 176 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: what the story was for excite, Like what exactly the 177 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: promise was way back in early two thousand's. I've been 178 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: thinking about a lot, knowing I was going to come 179 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: on here, trying to remember back to the days of 180 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: what was going on there. And what I keep coming 181 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: back to is that so many of these companies and 182 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: ours that especially, they were trying to create a model 183 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: for like how you would provide internet to people, and 184 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: that model still exists today and it's actually the dominant model, 185 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: but they were I don't know if it was because 186 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: they were too early, or you know, they couldn't expand 187 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: too much, or you know, or people were expecting too 188 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: much too soon because of all the hype. But basically 189 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: at Home was a broadband provider. They hooked people. You know, 190 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: you paid forty dollars a month, they gave you a modem, 191 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: they hooked you up to the Internet and they decided 192 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: that well, but like a O L where you were 193 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: in this when you dialed up to a O L. 194 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: You were in this like their environment and their browser 195 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: and all that. They were trying to do the same thing. 196 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: But for broadband, which was still broad and was still 197 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: relatively knew that and not a lot of people had. 198 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: Most people were still dial up cable Internet was very 199 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: expensive and most places you simply couldn't get it. That 200 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: is a good point. It's like, in a way, they 201 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: were just way too early, because if you think about 202 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: even the media, what we're seeing in media today, where 203 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: of an entity like Comcast, this huge infrastructure provider, but 204 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: also which makes incredible content investments at the same time, 205 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: it does sound like the excited mom. That's what they were, 206 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: That's what that was. The idea was they bought Excite, 207 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: which was the port because at the time that's how 208 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: people got an Internet was portals. It was a O L. Yahoo, 209 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: Those were our big competitors. So they're like, we'll buy it, 210 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: will buy our own portal, we'll stick them together. Now 211 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: we have everyone in this contained universe. So they come 212 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: to our site, they do all their shopping, they do 213 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: all their web browsing, we can serve them ads, we 214 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: can also sell them things, and then we're also on 215 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: top of that, we're making a month that they paid. 216 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: Again real quickly before I forget to ask what month 217 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: did you start, because you know, thinking about the timeline 218 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: of all this, we know the bubble peaked in March 219 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: two thousand, but when did you started? Excited? That's I 220 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: think I started in March two thousand. It was either 221 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: February March of two thousand it was, and it was 222 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: right after two tho. You started right now, Yeah, I 223 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: was like I right at the peak of the ball. 224 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: But about a year earlier was when there happened. Stock 225 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: was the stock was up somewhere around a hundred, and 226 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: they're already starting to be problems under the surface, because 227 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: when I started a year later, it was down to 228 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: like thirty interesting thirty or forty. So you mentioned the 229 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: merger just then. I think this was part of this 230 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: thing that went wrong for the company, right. They just 231 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: spent a ton of money on mergers, and there was 232 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: this frenzy at the time everyone wanted to grab market share. 233 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: Walk us through what that was like living it from 234 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: a corporate perspective. Yeah, so the merger obviously brought in 235 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: a ton of new cash to the company, is my 236 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: understanding of it. And they kind of did go on 237 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: a huge spending spree, not just hiring more employees of 238 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: their own, but also sometime in ninety nine, shortly after 239 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: the merger, it became a kind of legendary thing. They 240 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: bought a company called Blue Mountain Arts. It was billion 241 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: dollar greeting carcase there was online greeting card company to 242 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: basically just email little animations to your friends of like 243 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: happy birth. I want to say, my dad uses Blue 244 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: Mountain Greeting Cards system to this day, and he uses 245 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: it as a replacement for email, so all his email 246 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: messages to me basically come in the form of electronic cards. 247 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: I hate this company. Dash Yeah, they still exist, but 248 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: excite paid. I looked it up. It was like eight 249 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollar deal and like million dollars 250 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: in cash. I have to say, like, I remember that deal, 251 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: and I know we're like, oh, at the time, it 252 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: all seemed normal, But I do remember distinctly thinking like 253 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: even amidst all this euphoria, thinking that it's like this 254 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 1: seems a little weird, Like that was kind that was 255 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: like the first sort of red flag that even at 256 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: the time people were like, really, you're going to pay 257 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: that much money for a Greek like they're like corny, 258 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: like animated. Oh yeah, yeah, they were the because you know, again, 259 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 1: not a lot of people had broadband internet, so you 260 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: couldn't send like huge gifts or videos through the email. 261 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: So it was a very weird thing. And then they 262 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: they set up there, they so they brought them in, 263 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: they set them up on our offices, and then two 264 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: years later, when when the company fell apart, they sold 265 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: the whole thing for thirty five million dollars, which is 266 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: like no, nothing, So you got there. It was right 267 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: around the overall market peak. But but after they had peaked, 268 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: so you must have been working with a lot of 269 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: people who at one point, we're worth millions of dollars 270 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: on paper, and day after day watching their paper wealth 271 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: sort of literally vanished. So I'm curious, like, what's that Like. 272 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: There were a couple of people there who were actually 273 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: had been employees before the I p O. And they 274 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: got stock options, which was against a standard thing even 275 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: back then. So yeah, on paper they were millionaires, and 276 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: they had sold some of their stock when the stock 277 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: was sky high and made a lot of money. But 278 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: we're still continuing to work there, and nobody, nobody at 279 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: my level, like was able to, like cash out and retire, 280 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: or they might have been able to if they had 281 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: timed it perfectly, but they obviously no one did. And 282 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: you could see the frustration for them, especially as all 283 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: their wealth is tied up in this company. And again 284 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: they were sold this idea that this is a company 285 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: that's gonna last for a long time, this is the 286 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: future Internet. And as the company started to slowly fall 287 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: apart and people began to sense that this was not 288 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: going well and it didn't look like it was going 289 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: to get better, obviously, Yeah, they were very frustrated and 290 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: it was hard to come to work every day knowing that, 291 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: Like I said, I was one of the last ones 292 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: in so I sort of knew all along that my 293 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: stock options were not going to become anything or was 294 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: it real long shot that my stock options for becomes 295 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: a thing. But like you said, yeah, you're right, these people, 296 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: on paper, their wealth was they had a lot of 297 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: wealth into this company, and then the company was falling 298 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: apart around them. So were there any warning signs at 299 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: the time, because it's easy for us, of course, to 300 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: look back on it seventeen years in the future and 301 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: we can sit here and say, oh, well, obviously they 302 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: paid way too much money for an electronic greeting card company, 303 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: and obviously they were paying people too much, and there 304 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: was all this success. But at the time, was there 305 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: any indication that the whole thing was going to come collapsing. 306 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: I hate to say that, like, there were signs that 307 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: was like obvious, this is this is about to burst. 308 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: But when it did start to fall apart, it was 309 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: a very slow motion at first and then all at once, 310 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: and there were little signs that things were not going well. 311 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: And the thing for someone at my level, the most 312 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: obvious one is those perks like I was talking about 313 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: when I was first tired with all the bagels and 314 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the free soda and all that. So after a few months, 315 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: suddenly they take away the lunches. There's no free lunches anymore. 316 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: And then a couple more weeks go by and now 317 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: there's no more bagel, the bagels are only on Friday 318 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: instead of every day of the week, and then yeah, 319 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: and then all the the But the big one for me, 320 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: when I was like, Okay, something is definitely going on here. 321 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: Is like shortly before the first round of layoffs, they 322 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: started charging five cents for the sodas in the vending machines, 323 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: which used to be free. It's like really literally, nicol, Yeah, 324 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: that was the thing. Yeah, it was like you used 325 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: to give us these for nothing, and now you want 326 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: twenty five cents. The fact that was cents almost made 327 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: it worse than if they just charged full price, because 328 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, this is all they're gonna get. 329 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: This is the beginning of the end, and it's going 330 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: to start to go down. And in terms of like morale, 331 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I imagined the worst thing that happened 332 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: is people losing their millions. But all these little things, 333 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: what how does this sort of just general vibe of 334 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: working it does it feel less fun every day? Like? 335 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: So there were little things like that. And then after 336 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: I've been there about a year, so somewhere around the 337 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: beginning of two thousand one, there was our our first 338 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: round of layoffs, which was not a huge number in retrospect, 339 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: but it was It wasn't like a big wake up 340 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: call to everyone in the company that like, things are 341 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: not going well. Something is wrong and we're not sure 342 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: if we're gonna be able to get out of this now. 343 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: So they the content people, were the ones who were 344 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: getting acts the most because in addition to the stock dropping, 345 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: we began to see the online advertising market started a 346 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: crater and that was a huge chunk of our revenue 347 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: at that time. So as that got worse, and then 348 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: they laid people off, and then the revenue got worse, 349 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: and then they laid more people off. So that whole 350 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: year of two thousand one was like a steady drip 351 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: drip drip of There was this first round of layoffs 352 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: and then like we all knew that there was going 353 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: to be another round, we just didn't know when. We 354 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: didn't know where it was going to be. And another 355 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: thing around the same time, for most of two thousand 356 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: they were building a new building for us as it 357 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: can do, headquarters right on the one on one, and 358 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: also one of those classic signs in the headquarter curse. Yeah, 359 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: it's like there's a whole name and and it was 360 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: open maybe you know. So once that opened, it was 361 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: this big, gleaming building. It was very nice. There was 362 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: a cafeteria and so at that time we had we 363 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: were taking up space in four buildings. It wasn't even 364 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: still big enough to handle all the employees. But then 365 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: suddenly two of the buildings were combined into one building, 366 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: and then a few months later we're all combined, and 367 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: the company just kept shrinking, both in size and you know, stature, 368 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: and every little like I said, every little drip drip 369 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: drip was not only signs that the things were going 370 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: bad for the company, but it was just brutal to 371 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: morale and people. You know, that whole year of two 372 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: thousand one, the whole summer, everyone just could sort of 373 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: see that, like, you know, we need some kind of 374 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: rescue here because this is not going well. And am 375 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: I going to be the next person to get laid off? 376 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: What am I going to do if I get laid off? 377 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: Because the same thing was happening at every other company 378 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: in the Bay Area all the same time. So if 379 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: you got laid off, there was nowhere else for you 380 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: to go to find another job. Right, So I'm curious, 381 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 1: this is sort of a weird question, but as the 382 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: money dried up and morale took a hit, did you 383 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: observe the people around you clinging more firmly to the 384 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: idea of the company's mission, Like did people start saying, well, oh, 385 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: it's not as fun as it used to be, but 386 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: we're doing something really important here. We're creating the future 387 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: of the Internet. And the reason I ask is because, 388 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: of course, when we talk about bubbles nowadays, a lot 389 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: of people start thinking about bitcoin, and with bitcoin, the 390 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: story is so strong there and there's this whole sort 391 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: of belief system built up around it that people start 392 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: to seize upon whenever the ice goes down. There was 393 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: probably some of that at the top of the executives 394 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: who were really invested in making this company work, and 395 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, at my level, kind of the bottom wrong 396 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: of the company, I think people were just trying to 397 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: trying to stay above water and survive. And we talked 398 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: about this also that part of the thing with bitcoin 399 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: is that people can see a future even if the 400 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: bubble collapses, in the price collapses, people can still see 401 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: a future where bitcoin exists or some other cryptocurrency exists. 402 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: And I think a big thing with these companies in 403 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: the and that first dot com boom was the mission 404 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: is going to go on even if the company doesn't. 405 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: So it was more about like winners and losers is 406 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: that somebody was going to do what we were doing. 407 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: Somebody was going to take somebody. That turned out to 408 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: be right, as you say, the model survived. Yeah, it 409 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: wasn't that there was anything wrong with the idea of 410 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: broadband internet or online content. It was just that this 411 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: company was not making it work, and so if we failed, 412 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: one of our competitors would pick up the slack and 413 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: keep going. But as time went on, it was like 414 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: it became clear that we were going to be the 415 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: loser in this fight and somebody else was gonna win. 416 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: That There was a lot of that going on. I 417 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: think all over the that dot com boom that whatever 418 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: whatever your niche was, whatever business you were in, you 419 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: had five competitors and you couldn't all survive. Somebody was 420 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: gonna win. But there was no scenario which everything would 421 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: just fall apart and there would be no internet. But 422 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: it was a question of who's going to be the 423 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: winner and who is going to be the loser? On 424 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: their grim note, how did it finally and were you 425 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: laid off? Like what was the how did it finish 426 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: for you? So there was my team which was about 427 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: thirty people by the summer of two thousand one, it 428 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: was down to three. And yeah, it was, so you 429 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: were a survivor. I mean, it's already pretty impressive. We're 430 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: talking to someone who was like in the top. That 431 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: was so that I hung on for as long as Yeah, 432 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: it was the opposite of the last and first out. 433 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: I was the last one in, which also meant I 434 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: was made the least amount of money. So that's why 435 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: I was able to to keep hanging on. But so 436 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: the last few months it was like really grim. People 437 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: were just disappearing every day, either quitting or getting laid off, 438 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't even know. One day, I came in 439 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: before I was laid off, and my computer had been 440 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: stolen from my desk, and it turned out that the 441 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: guy who sat across the aisle from me had been 442 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: laid off, and when he got laid off, he just 443 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: took my computer and walked out the front door and 444 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: no one stopped him, and I called security and they 445 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: did not care. So, um, yeah, it was so weird. 446 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: Was getting slower and slower. We moved to the desk, 447 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: and then actually September eleven, two thousand one, happened, and 448 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: then two weeks later the company fell for bankruptcy, and 449 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: that was when I was laid off and they gave 450 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: me two weeks. They gave me the option of just leaving, 451 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: walking out the door with my severance, or I could 452 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: stay two weeks and get a little bit more sunset 453 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: my product, I guess, which didn't even really serve a purpose. 454 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,239 Speaker 1: But a lot of people were offered a deal. I 455 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: remember where initially when the bankruptcy was filed, it was 456 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: pitched as well, this is the real, the classic we're 457 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: gonna reorganize, We're gonna come out on the other side, 458 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: and we're gonna have a stable company again, and we'll 459 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: get some new funding from me. You know. A T 460 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: and T was a big investor in US and were 461 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: trying to negotiate something where they could save us. And 462 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: so a lot of people were sold on the idea 463 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: that like, you can walk out right now with like 464 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks severance package, or if you stay 465 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: and we get through this, then you're gonna be rewarded 466 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: on the other side. So a lot of people took 467 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: that deal, and then a few months went by and 468 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: then at the end of December that was it. They 469 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: liquidated and it was like we're done as a company, 470 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: and those people ended up with nothing and again, and 471 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: I heard stories of the last days of when it 472 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: was clear that like, not only are we not going 473 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,239 Speaker 1: to make it like it's shutting down, we're selling all 474 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: our assets. That people were just taking server rax out 475 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: of the and just like dumping them in their trunk 476 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: and driving away. Yeah, it was just it was just 477 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: picking the place apart, people taking furniture and computers again 478 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: and everything, and and so you know, in September there 479 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: was this pitch that like, oh, the company will survive 480 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: and keep going, and then two months later it was 481 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: just it was over. And then even though I was 482 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: laid off, I still lived there for a couple more months. 483 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: And the thing that struck me as this is over, 484 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: is so when I first moved to the Bay Area, 485 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: I lived in Redwood City, which is where the office 486 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: for Excited Home was, And it's about five miles from 487 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: San Francisco. It's not that far, but if you tried 488 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: to drive there during rush hour in two thousand, it 489 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: would take at least an hour, sometimes two or three 490 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: hours with the traffic because they're just everywhere, just people everywhere, 491 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: everything is bustling. And then by the time I ended 492 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: up leaving California, it would take fifteen minutes because there 493 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: was never anyone, Like, no matter what time of day, 494 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: there was never anyone in the highway. And you would 495 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: drive down the highway and you'd see all these buildings 496 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: for all these dot com companies, and they were empty, 497 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: and all the restaurants were empty because so many people 498 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: who came there to make their fortune and then their 499 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: company collaps and as soon as their company collapse, they 500 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: didn't stay. They went back to wherever the king. That 501 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: is a great, perfect anecdotal way to sum up the 502 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: end of the bubble, Dash Bennett, that was fascinating conversation. 503 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: I love this perspective on the bubble. Thank you very 504 00:23:49,760 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: much for joining. Thank you, Tracy. I love that perspective 505 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: on the And that's kind of I guess that's kind 506 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: of obvious. I know from many conversations with you, Joe, 507 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: that you love talking about the dot com bubble. I mean, 508 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: you know, like I didn't live it like Dash did 509 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: to an extent, but I remember it pretty vividly, and 510 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: you know we've talked about it before, but that whole angle, 511 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: that detail about people at the end, essentially looting the office, 512 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: stealing servers from the server room. I love that so much. Yeah, 513 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 1: and the idea that maybe there were some warning signs 514 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: when the free lunches ended. That's the sort of classic 515 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: economics tenant, isn't it. No free lunches literally free, but no, 516 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: it is easy and to you know, And I think 517 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: the whole thing with the slides, It's like, it's easy 518 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: to look at the excesses of the past and to 519 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: assume that it must have been obvious at the time 520 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: that everyone knew that they were ridiculous. But I think that, 521 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, And it goes to this theme that we 522 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: keep hitting on the power of the story, right is 523 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: in a bubble. It's so compelling that you're just not sure. 524 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, maybe the slides are ridiculous, but maybe 525 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: this is what the office of the future is going 526 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: to be like. And it's really hard to know in 527 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: that moment which way it's going to go. Right. And 528 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: sometimes the story is actually correct because, as Dash pointed out, 529 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: this business model did become the dominant model. It was 530 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: just that this particular company, excited at home wasn't the 531 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,959 Speaker 1: one dominating it. Right. So this gets back to the 532 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: idea that he was talking about the winners and losers 533 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: during a bubble, like not everything is going to necessarily disappear, 534 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: but a huge chunk of it might, even if the 535 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: story turns out to be exactly right on. And of course, 536 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: the excited home model not that different from the well 537 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: time Warner model, which is not that different from the 538 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: sort of Comcast model of today. So even if the 539 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: founder's vision is sort of perfect, you know, and it's 540 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: easy to forget Amazon in late two thousand, early two 541 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: thousand one, I think they're a lot of people who 542 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: wondered whether Amazon would hang on. So even if your 543 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: your vision is perfect, it could still all go bust, right, 544 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: So further proof, I think that bubbles and markets remain 545 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: the most interesting phenomenon that we can observe in the space. 546 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: Let's do more bubble episodes of this year, another bubble series, 547 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: definitely alright, Alright on that note, this has been another 548 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wasn't and 549 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at 550 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart, 551 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: and you can follow Dash on Twitter at Dashbot and 552 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: a shout out to our producer, to for Foreheads, and 553 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: the head of podcast at Bloomberg, Francesca leaving thanks for listening.