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She's got an interesting and background and 28 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: that she is sort of I think she is hard 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: to put in an ideological box, which I think is 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: as you guys know, always interests me more when it 31 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: is hard to compartmentalize somebody, because I think that's what 32 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: makes politics more interesting and most people live in a blurry, 33 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: nuanced world. So Lucy, welcome to our new Voice series. 34 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. It's great to be with you. 35 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: So as somebody who ran a campaign of now I 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: think he's a Democrat Joe Walsh, former member of Congress 37 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: who ran an insert and sort of primary campaign, how 38 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: do you describe your politics and where would you put 39 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: yourself on the spectrum. 40 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: Well, it's funny that you bring up Joe, because when 41 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: I was running Joe's campaign, or when I was when 42 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: I was telling people what we were doing, which I 43 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: would describe as well at best, at kamikaze kind of 44 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: effort right to primary Donald Trump in the twenty twenty cycle. 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: People would say, oh, were you a member of his 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: congressional staff? And I would think, oh, my god, no, 47 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: God no, because for people who go far enough back, 48 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: they know that Joe was quite a wild man, and 49 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: we did not. 50 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: He was a talk radio guy right that got into politics. 51 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: He was he was, and so he was a congressman 52 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: elected as part of that Tea Party wave from Illinois 53 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 2: and then ultimately was unseated by Tammy Duckworth off a 54 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: redistricting year. And I loved Joe, And as you can imagine, 55 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: going through something like that bonds you to someone for 56 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: a while. 57 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: Oh it's a fascinating and it was clear what you 58 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: were doing. You weren't doing to win, You were doing 59 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: to sort of like galvanize, like, you know, try to 60 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: make him answer to a different constituency, which makes sense, and. 61 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: So to force them to show people who they were. 62 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: And it's weird because I think now we look back 63 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: on that time, and it seems obvious that Donald Trump 64 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: was going to win the nomination, but even in that 65 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: time in twenty nineteen, there was still at least a 66 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: little bit of a sense that maybe there was a 67 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: path back for Republicans. And in fact, Joe got in 68 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: around in late August early September of twenty nineteen, and 69 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: Bill Weld was in, Mark Sandford was getting in, and 70 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: there was this idea that there actually still were many 71 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: people on the right who were interested in these manidates 72 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: because they felt like Donald Trump wasn't conservative enough. 73 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: We cently wasn't a small government everybody you just described. 74 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: What links all three of them is that they were 75 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: part of the Republican Party. I was raised with, Okay, 76 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: which was a small government party. You know. Sure, Weld 77 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: was socially more liberal maybe than a Mark Sandford, but 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: Sandford was much more of a libertarian on social issues. 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: But they all were united on the idea of no, no, no, no, 80 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: there should be less government. And that's not Donald Trump. 81 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: And I don't know where that wing of the party. 82 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: I assume they're dormant and they will it will show 83 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: up when Trump disappears, But I don't know where that 84 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: wing of the party is right. 85 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I'm that's right, that's right. At that time, 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: there was still even this thought, because it was around 87 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: the time of the now infamous phone call from Trump 88 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: to Zelenski, and it was right before the first impeachment, 89 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 2: like someone really big might get in this race, and 90 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: like and Weld, Sanford and Walsh, we'll all have to 91 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: kind of get out, Like maybe Mitt Romney is going 92 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: to get in into this race. And it's it's it's 93 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: so weird to think where we are now from even 94 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: just that was six years ago. 95 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: So, you know, do you feel homeless politically? Sorry, you're 96 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: speaking from a we work, which would be another way 97 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: of saying, oh. 98 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm on office. I'm on office. 99 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: It's funny. 100 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that to the degree that I feel 101 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 2: politically homeless, I probably always was somewhat politically homeless, even 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: when I thought of myself as a person who was 103 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: on the right. When I was coming up in politics, 104 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: I really had kind of small l libertarian oriented policies, 105 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 2: and I felt like the Republican Party was the best 106 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: place to make my bed. It felt like the closest 107 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: to my beliefs. The Republican Party is so far from 108 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: that now that I certainly could not imagine ever becoming 109 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: a Republican ever again. But I think that even in 110 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: that time, I was making a lot of I was 111 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 2: making a lot of concessions to fellow Republicans and breaking 112 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: bread with and forming bargains with people whom I had 113 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: a lot of political differences with already. And so I 114 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: was never a hardcore social con I was never I 115 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: was always probably more like a Cato Institute kind of 116 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: gal when it came to issues like immigration. So there 117 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: were plenty of people that I was quite at odds 118 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: with within the Republican coalition. And now I sometimes see 119 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: efforts that former colleagues and current friends are undertaking to 120 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: bring the Republican Party back together. Right, the idea that 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: we could get those old constituencies back and unite again 122 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: around a vision that has the Republican Party has gone 123 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: away from. But I think that actually a lot of 124 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 2: those constituencies, even those of us within the never Trump camp, 125 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: to the degree that there is one, still don't even 126 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: want to be in coalition with each other. Now. I 127 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: was never a big Reagan gal, Right, Like. 128 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me about how you grew up. I mean, 129 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: did you grow up with sort of with politics front 130 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: and center in your house or was it something that 131 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: you took an interest in later. 132 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: I did. I did. I grew up with divorce parents 133 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: who were so I mostly grew up in Arizona with 134 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: a dad who was in Washington and was deeply engaged 135 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: in journalism. So my dad was an editor at the 136 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: Weekly Standard. My stepmother's father was Bob Novak, and so 137 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: I grew up actually with a lot of this stuff 138 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: in the mix. For me. 139 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: Of my favorite, by the way, memoirs was Bob Novak's 140 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: memoir The Prince of Prince of Darkness. Yeah, but you know, 141 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm of another generation. So he was a you know, 142 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: he was he was. He was a leading light back then. 143 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 3: And I would come to I would come to Washington 144 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: as this kid who was really growing up in Phoenix, 145 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: but it was in Washington a lot, and I would 146 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: get this front row seat to you know, the Crossfire 147 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: set or you know, the Evans and Novak and and 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 3: Bob was. 149 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: Very close with people like Pop moynihan, right like you were, 150 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 2: you were. It was just such a different time that 151 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: the relationships people had and those affinities that they were forming. 152 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: See, this was normal. This was the Washington I grew 153 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: up with. It was perfectly normal for your I mean, 154 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: my my best friend worked for Papyuchanan and I came 155 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: off the Tom Harkin campaign, and yeah, we're lifelong best 156 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: friends and we had a ton in common. And it 157 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: turns out even politically we were we had a ton 158 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: in common. We didn't fully know it because we were 159 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: just simply constitutionalists who just sort of picked aside when 160 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: we were in college and then sort of said, why 161 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: do we do this? Yeah, when when I was perfectly normal, 162 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: it was perfectly normal. Now we make it seem like 163 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: it's like whoa, as if like we've we've like taken 164 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: a pig and bred it with a sheep, and you're 165 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: just like, you know, it wasn't unusual for for for 166 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: Libs and cons to get along. 167 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: Do you think that's because we were con doing more 168 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: overlapping content? Like do you think that that's hard? You 169 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 2: think it was, because yeah. 170 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: It's hard not to assume that you know, But I 171 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: think I'll tell you what you know it's and it's funny, 172 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: I don't know on the chicken and egg answer, because 173 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: we also were living. That was we were regularly we 174 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: we regularly had divide a government, right, I grew up 175 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: in an entire era. You know, the Democrats always controlled 176 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: Congress and the Republicans basically always controlled the Presidency. Every 177 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: once in a while the Republicans would get the Senate, 178 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: but that would be about it, right, and then you 179 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: know where things got polarized, you know, the Berlin Wall falls, 180 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: and then we go through these essentially periods where one 181 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: party gets control for two years, and it became these 182 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: sort of ideological arms races. Right, well, get as much 183 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: as you can get done in your two years, and 184 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: get as much as you can get done in you 185 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: and then the other six were just essentially fights to 186 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: keep your poll ses implemented. Right. That was sort of 187 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's eight ears. Arguably domestically, that was George W. 188 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: PUSH's eight ears, and it was Barack Obama's eight years. 189 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: But before then it was almost and I think because 190 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: it was normal that you had the two parties had 191 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: to function with each other. People talk about Tip O'Neil 192 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: and Reagan as if that somehow they wanted to do this. 193 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: They didn't want to do it, They had no choice. 194 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: Half of Tip O'Neil's caucus were conservative Democrats from the 195 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: South whose voters were all voting for Reagan, so they 196 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: had to work with him. So was it. And that 197 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: goes back to it's all about the incentive structures. What 198 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: is your incentive structure, and when the incentive structures changed, right, 199 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: and in some cases, media incentive structures gained. Right, we 200 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: had more partisan media and all those things. So it is. 201 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: We could argue that chicken and egg all the time, 202 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: but I will say this, when when governments divided, more 203 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: people share the same reality. When power is not divided, 204 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: that's when I think you get the different realities. That's 205 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: a inclusion I've come to. 206 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I haven't I haven't thought about the kind 207 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: of bluer red trifectas as a driver of that kind 208 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: of division. But that makes a lot of sense. That's 209 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: that's an interesting I. 210 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: Mean, it's you know, it's you know, all you can 211 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: do is look at it backward. I always joke that 212 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: I'm trying to become more of a political anthropologist than 213 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: anything else these days. Right, you're trying to understand how 214 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: these tribes will interact with each other based on changing environments, right, 215 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: And that's kind of you know, and I think it 216 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: it's why I find myself you know, if you told 217 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: me to pick a party, I couldn't. But I've just 218 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: looked at it too long. From this direct from this, 219 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: from this perch where it feels uncomfortable becoming a member 220 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: of one of these tribes. 221 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I I grapple with that because I think 222 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: of myself as an as a political independent. But I 223 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: actually recently re registered as a Democrat because I thought 224 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: to myself, and I have also spent a lot of 225 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: time working to help to build scale in the independent 226 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: political movement, and that is a movement that I care 227 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: a lot about and want to be successful. And I 228 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: am no big d Democratic Party booster. But I looked 229 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 2: around and I thought, I think that the threat of 230 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: MAGA is so great and to me, my fear of 231 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: what I see as Trump's brand of authoritarianism, and try 232 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: as I might working as an operative in trying to 233 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 2: lift independent voices, in trying to help build capacity, I 234 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 2: don't see that happening in the very nearest term, that 235 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: that I can really justify doing anything other than being 236 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: a Democrat, Because at this moment, I think that the 237 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: Democratic Party is deeply, deeply flawed. But I also, at 238 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: this moment, believe it is the only vehicle against MAGA. 239 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: So look, you're not the only person that's like you know, 240 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I've spent a lot of time with various 241 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: forces in these third party or independent movements, right, And 242 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: you know, I always joke jokes the wrong word. I 243 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: think the there's never been a climate that has been 244 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: more potentially opportunistic for an independent than what we have now. Right, 245 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: both parties are inpopular I mean, I look at the 246 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: conundrum of the Democrats, right, They had an a higher 247 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: unfavorable rating right now than the Republicans. But Trump's unfavorable 248 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: rating is higher than the Republicans, and therefore whoever's running 249 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: against Trump becomes the default for a swing voter. How 250 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: do we know this? Just look at Virginia. Fifty two 251 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: percent of the electorate said they had an unfavorable view 252 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party, and she won by fifteen points, right, 253 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: the Democrat. So it is you're not alone. And it 254 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: sounds like in making this choice, why do you think 255 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: the independent movements can't get off the ground? Is it 256 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: just logistics? 257 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: I think there are a few things, I think, and 258 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: we saw a version of this last year with some 259 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: of the third party presidential efforts, including no labels, but 260 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: we've seen it in statewide and people trying to wage 261 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: Senate races goom natorial bits whatever. I think people tend 262 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: to really misread the tea leaves around what it means 263 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: to be an independent, and so this comes up a 264 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: lot in the polling phenomenon where you ask voters Okay, 265 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: would you I mean, you can name me any race. 266 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: I can go do a poll and get you these results, right, 267 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: which are like would you like you know, Bob Republican, 268 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: Joe Democrat, and then you know generic independent And everyone 269 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 2: is like yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, like. 270 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: If we can elect president generic, we would have elected 271 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: president generic a long time ago, right, yeah. 272 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: But so the independent movement suffers from getting people excited 273 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: over and over again about generic independent and independent voters 274 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: are not a monolith. You have people who are independents 275 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: because they're right wing firebrands, like they just think they're 276 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: you know, like they're people who uh love what Thomas 277 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: Massey is doing right like there or Rampaul They're like, 278 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: that's a good. 279 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: Way of putting a Massie and Paul. They're super on 280 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: some issues, super conservative on the other issues, super libertarian 281 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: like you know, right, like Iinron, like I always joke, 282 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: they were the guys that carried the book. They carried 283 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: an iron book around with the in high school like 284 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, and had it dog eared like that was 285 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: clearly high school Massy and high school Paul, right, right. 286 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 2: Right, And then you have you have analogs to those 287 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: guys on the left, right people. 288 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders is an independent totally perfect there's right because 289 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: he's super perfect exam he's not a mainstream democratic capitalist. 290 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: Then East set right, and then you have independence, like 291 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 2: if we're going to stick with current officeholders like Angus King, 292 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: who just was one of the eight senators who helped 293 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 2: wage that deal, you've got recent outpop folks like Kirstin 294 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: Cinema or Joe Manchin, even just those people we named. 295 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: That's not that does not a political movement make. Those 296 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 2: are all people who have very different politics from each other. 297 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: Mansion and Cinema are on the opposite sides, for instance 298 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: on trade right, yes, you know, and and yet they're 299 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: both quote unquote centrist independents and for the most part 300 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: they are, but only to a degree. 301 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I think that that that is one 302 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 2: piece of it. That just independent voters are not a monolith. 303 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: There's the fact that often then wishful belt Way, a 304 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 2: CELA corridor, people like me do a thing where they 305 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 2: project onto independent voters. I am. I am a process 306 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: social physical conservatives. 307 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: Right. Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know 308 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: from personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away. 309 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in 310 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow. Myself 311 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to 312 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold, my dad had 313 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot, 314 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why 315 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he 316 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well, 317 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you 318 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: about Ethos Life. They can provide you with peace of 319 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: mind knowing your family is protected even if the worst 320 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: comes to pass. Ethos is an online platform that makes 321 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: getting life insurance fast and easy, all designed to protect 322 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: your family's future in minutes, not months. There's no complicated process, 323 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: and it's one hundred percent online. There's no medical exam 324 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: require you just answer a few health questions online. 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Application times may vary and 335 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: the rates themselves may vary as well, but trust me, 336 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: life insurance is something you should really think about it, 337 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: especially if you've got a growing family. I keep thinking, 338 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: if you know that, to me, the only way to 339 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: And it's interesting. I've spent some time with the Forward 340 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: Party and they have this debate like do they try 341 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: to create a platform that keeps their coalition together or 342 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: can they have a platform that says no, we're truly independent. 343 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: We're we're for competency and process and fairness in order 344 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: to open the door for ideas to have a chance. 345 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, I mean it. It becomes really 346 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: difficult to figure out how to galvanize that those these 347 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: what I call radical independence mm hmmm. 348 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a longtime advisor to Forward, and so 349 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: I'm very familiar with their work. I think it is 350 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: a challenge to in fifty states, you know, fifty different places, 351 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: not to mention cities and towns and counties to it 352 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: is a challenge to bring people together in that kind 353 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 2: of way where downstream of that you have leverage as 354 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 2: a party. It's a challenging thing, and of course I 355 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: think that the I think obviously there are structural realities 356 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: around non partisan primaries being kind of necessary to be 357 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: able to help independence or people who are parts of 358 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: new parties get grant. But also just the infrastructure, right, 359 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: it's a chicken or it's a different kind of chicken, 360 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: or the egg problem, which is there aren't strong candidates 361 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: because there are not big audiences of independent voters throughout 362 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: around them. But then you don't have those because there 363 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 2: are no candidates. 364 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: And so I had Rob the Democrat likely Democratic nominee 365 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: for governor in Iowa, Rob sand state auditor, pretty sort 366 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: of center left kind of guy. He said, I said, 367 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: why are you running as a Democrat? And he said, 368 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: because it's the only viable option. And he was he 369 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: wasn't you know, he's saying, you know, it was more 370 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: of if if there were a viable, truly independent option, 371 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: he would have done it, right, if it were easy 372 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: to get on the ballot in all of those things, 373 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: but it isn't. 374 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. 375 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: He's somebody that said that part out loud, right, Not 376 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: all candidates will. 377 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 2: There are several current groubernatorial candidates around the country who 378 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: have said that very same thing to me, right, and 379 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: and they have had to make a choice. And they're good. 380 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: They're good people. They're people that I'd like to see elected. 381 00:22:53,160 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: And you know, and it's funny, it's like mayors get 382 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: elected as nonpartisans. And it's funny how we are Expectations 383 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: for a mayor are always simply about just making sure 384 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: the trash gets picked up, making sure the roads are paved, 385 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: like you know, when you are you are the constituency 386 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: that votes for you, you know, meaning if you have 387 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: a partisan constituency, you're going to be a partisan governor 388 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: a governance basically, And if you have a broader constituency 389 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: that you have to get elected by, you're going to 390 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: then seek out the broad things that eighty percent want done. 391 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: And there's something about the way we elect mayors that 392 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: I kind of think, why aren't we doing this with governors? 393 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: Why aren't we doing this with you know, going the 394 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: non partisan primary route seems to produce pretty decent public 395 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: officials on the mayor level. Why wouldn't we want to 396 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: see that in the state wide levels? 397 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 2: I wonder. I don't know the answer to this, but 398 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: I wonder what we would see if, in terms of 399 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: the pipeline of mayors to hire partisan office, whether whether 400 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 2: or not, how many of them wind up aspiring to 401 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: bigger office Because of certainly mayors in large cities, even 402 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 2: even those who are running in mayor's races that are 403 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: non partisan in some places, you kind of have to 404 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: already be part of the machinery. You at least have 405 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: had chosen a team. 406 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is not It's not lost 407 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: on me, though, that that among the eight senators that 408 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: voted to open the government. Three of them were former governors. 409 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: M that's interesting, right, shaheen, Angus King, Tim Kaine. And 410 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: there's something about like you know, a mayor, governor is 411 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: usually slightly less partisan than a legislator. 412 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's a different it's a different skill set too, right, 413 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: it's an executive skill set. There's a there's a sort 414 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: of a a governor has to deliver and get things to. 415 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 2: I mean, a legislator can. I'm luxurious, so you can 416 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: just run your mouth to do whatever. 417 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: So let me let's go, let me go this way. 418 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: Who's your favorite president if you could have if you 419 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: could clone a president and have them any president of 420 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: our forty seven, of our forty Actually, I guess we 421 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: have to say of our forty five presidents, two of 422 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: them get numbered twice. But of our forty five, any 423 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: of them worth cloning and bringing back. 424 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot to be said for Lincoln, 425 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: but I don't know. Actually, no one's ever asked me that. 426 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: I don't have a good, highly thought out answer, but 427 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: Lincoln comes to mind. Who's yours? 428 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: I may? I think are there's only two presidents that 429 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 1: have been the two presidents that I think have been 430 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: the closest that being in behaving as political independence are 431 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: the two presidents that were also commanders in chief of 432 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: armies before they became commanders in chief, and that's General 433 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: Washington and generalized in our that both of them were 434 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: more likely to put country before party. In fact, one 435 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: preached against party and the other one was sort of 436 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: a reluctant member of the Republican Party. Right, So those 437 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: are the those are the two. I do think it's 438 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: interesting to me, and I always say that, you know, 439 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: when we talk about the history of a president, we 440 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: usually are we talk about them through the current politics 441 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: that we're in. And it's not lost on me that 442 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: Eisenhower is getting a moment right by historians, because I 443 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: think we all long for somebody who was just simply 444 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: less partisan. 445 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, it's interesting that some of our most flawed 446 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 2: presidents also had some other great accomplishments, right that how 447 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: complicated their legacies are. No one would ever say, oh, Nixon, 448 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: like a Knicks back, got right, but we could actually 449 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: filter Nixon through a different light and say that that 450 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 2: was actually pretty things that we're really good And LBJ 451 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 2: has parts of his personality that are very similar to 452 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. 453 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: Yes, yet tell somebody who loves LBJ that and they 454 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: don't want to be reminded of that. Nice, you know, 455 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: but no, it's there is some you know, Teddy Roosevelt 456 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: is lionized. Teddy Roosevelt was an imperialist, right, and he 457 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: would love what Donald Trump said about Greenland, right. But 458 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: we don't fully. You know, It's funny how we how 459 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: we view those You know, they're quick essential Americans one 460 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: hundred years later, but at the moment, yeah, absolutely, we 461 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: see them differently. Do you want to run for office? 462 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 2: I had truly never thought about it, and I actually 463 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: if you had asked me that like six months ago, 464 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 2: I would have given you the canned answer that I've 465 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: given for years, which is that you have to truly 466 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: have a screw loose to decide to run for office, 467 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: because you have decided, as a grown up adult person, 468 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: that you're going to subject yourself to the kind of 469 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: popularity contests that we all were so glad to be 470 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: free of when we got out of the school yard, 471 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: and that they're just there has to be something really 472 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: wrong with you. 473 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: Used to make I used to make the argument too. 474 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: I used to say, if you cut open all presidents 475 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: and we study their DNA, we'd find out they're the weirdest. 476 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: Right that were the normal ones and they were the weirdest. 477 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Many are left handed, which I actually 478 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: also am, but that's a different but but no, I 479 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: but more recently I've thought I'm rounding the corner to forty, 480 00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 2: so I'm you know, youngish but not too young. And 481 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: I've thought that that form of public service, I could 482 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: imagine being open to that at some point. I can 483 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: imagine that it would be. 484 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: A huge. 485 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: That would be a huge shift for me, and I 486 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 2: think it's very unlikely that I would do it. But 487 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: I've had I've had moments more recently where I've thought 488 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: that could be a thing that I what's the draw? 489 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: Is it being in the room? What's the draw? What 490 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: would be the draw? I mean, nobody runs for office 491 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: because they're excited about raising money, and so I'm not 492 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: going to I assume that isn't the draw. And I 493 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: think and subjecting yourself to a popularity contest and having 494 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: nobody wants to do that, and I don't buy that anybody. 495 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: You know, there are people I think now that view 496 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: politics as a if you can't make it if you 497 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: couldn't make it as an actor in Hollywood, why don't 498 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: you trust off so I And that sometimes irritates me. Yeah, 499 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: I get I get that, But it's what's what would 500 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: be the draw? If you did this, You'd be doing 501 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: it despite what you just said about the schoolyard, right, 502 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: despite what you said about that. So what would be 503 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: the draw? Because you have to me, you've got to 504 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: really there's got to be a part of it that 505 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: you really want to do right, either an issue you 506 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: want to change or you want to be in the 507 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: room because you don't think somebody like you's been in 508 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: the room to discuss X. What would that be? 509 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I would be succumbing to the screw loose. 510 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: But in I think for me, I think that it's 511 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: actually very easy as an operative, as a political operative, 512 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: to just be in a kind of you're always in 513 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: battle and you're trying to figure out, like what's the 514 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 2: lever that I could pull here to to basically elicit 515 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: this outcome. And there's a gamesmanship to it that's thrilling. 516 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: But ultimately, I think the draw of public service and 517 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: of running for office when I think about that, and 518 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: again this is not a thing that I'm strongly considering, 519 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: But I think that the draw would be to shape 520 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: a party, to shape a movement in a way that 521 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 2: you really only can as a principal who is the 522 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: elected leader in that situation. And I think in particular, 523 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: I've spent so many years in the wilderness as an 524 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: ex Republican and then trying to help the independent movement 525 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: scale and feeling like the Democratic Party really is the 526 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: vehicle at this point. But there's a lot that I 527 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 2: would like to see changed about the Democratic Party because 528 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: of ways in which I don't think it's serving people. 529 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: So for me, the issue of health care is a 530 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: really important one, and I don't mean health insurance like 531 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: the shutdown debate that was not about healthcare, that was 532 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: about health insurance coverage. And so meanwhile, I think on 533 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: the Democratic side, healthcare is a crucial issue. And I 534 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: had a person no experience and that I was diagnosed 535 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: with cancer earlier this year, and I am okay, I 536 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: had thyroid cancer, and I had the thyroidectomy and radiation 537 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: and went through the oldest prescription drugs there is, Yes, 538 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: it take sense through it every morning. 539 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: Getting that right, that's the tricky part. 540 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: Is it is really tricky. It's really tricky. And and 541 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: I'm a person with a lot of a lot of 542 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: blessings just beyond most people. And I found the best 543 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: surgeon to go to, right, Like I learned in the 544 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: course of that that ninety six percent of thyroid ectomies 545 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: are performed by patients or by doctors who the status 546 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: something like ninety six percent of thyroidectomies in the US 547 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: are performed by doctors who performed five or fewer thyroidectomies 548 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: every year. Like, there's horrible rates of complication, right, Like 549 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: when you have radiation, no one is like, what how 550 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: much of the poison am I getting? Like am I 551 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: going to get like a secondary cancer from that? Because 552 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: my risk of dying from thyroid cancer is low. But 553 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: if you just like, if you just like overload me 554 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: with radioactivideine, I might die of radiation induced cancer. Right, 555 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: So all these things, and and I had had this 556 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: feeling about healthcare already, like I think talking about you know, sugar, 557 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: talking about metabolic disorders, those are really important. And the 558 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: Democratic Party actually has really made it hard for people 559 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: to have those conversations. And we have people that I 560 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: think are like mad men like RFK Junior who are 561 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: increasing vaccine skepticism and saying things that are dangerous in 562 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: my opinion about things like taking tail and al But 563 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: they have united movements around them because they're also right 564 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: about a bunch of things that resonate with people. And 565 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: so for me, when I think about what I will 566 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 2: do and what I've done in the past forty years 567 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: and what I'll do in the next, I could see 568 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 2: something like running for public office as a way to 569 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 2: use my voice to say this is how I want 570 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: to shape this movement. Right, Like, we're missing a lot 571 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 2: of stuff, And my own lived experience and watching other 572 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 2: people's has caused me to conclude this. 573 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: Well, it's funny about the wellness movement on the left right. 574 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: It did exist, and it got mocked by the right. 575 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: It was basically Michelle Obama and Michael Bloomberg. Yeah, the 576 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: two most prominent people who sort of tried to tackle 577 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: the Hey, we got to eat better and we've got 578 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: to be careful of sugar. And you know, I'm old 579 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: enough to remember when Sarah Palin came out with a 580 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: big gulp and mocked it. And now this same movement 581 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: is embracing it, you know, in a different way, and 582 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: I think you're right. It's interesting in you know, how 583 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: did the left lose those voters? It's a fascinating pennundrum. 584 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: How they lost the wellness voter. 585 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and we're seeing it, we're saying it play 586 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: out over and over again in how people are getting trained. 587 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: We began this conversation by talking a little bit. I 588 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 2: asked you what you thought about people's media diets, that 589 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 2: this this this top down approach where even like non 590 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: partisan commentators who are not even political, based on talking 591 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: about certain issues in certain ways, get lumped in depending 592 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 2: on whom you're talking about. Like you could go into 593 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: a room in Washington and get told off by like 594 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 2: DEM insiders that like Andrew Huberman is like a right winger, 595 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 2: right like, when in fact he's just a Stanford professor 596 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 2: who has gone really deep on a bunch of a 597 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 2: bunch of these issues. So those kinds of those kinds 598 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 2: of things, they've got a change, They've got a change. 599 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: It's not sustainable, Lucy, this was a great conversation. Uh, 600 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: And I'll admit at the next half hour i'd love to, 601 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, make you tell me. Bob Novak stories. But 602 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: but this was great. I appreciate the time. 603 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was great. 604 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: Got it.