1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Quality times. But Joseph Scott Morgan coming to you live 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: from Crime Con twenty twenty five in London. I'm Joseph 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. We're going to 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: dig into a case or cases. I hate to be 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: disrespectful by only saying putting that in the singular form. 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: We have four victims in this case, and that's the 7 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 1: most important thing, right and we try to emphasize that. 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: I think in the true crime world now in the past, 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: and I've heard this repeated over and over again that 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: particularly this time around, that we pay a lot of 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: attention to perpetrators. You hear about perpetrators a lot because 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: many times they are the stuff of nightmares because you, 13 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: I think humans, we want to try to understand what 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: creates a monster. And I've seen my share of monsters 15 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: over the course of my career in practice. However, what 16 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: I've also borne witness to or what they leave in 17 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: the wake, and I don't know of any case or 18 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: cases that are in view right now that are any 19 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: more brutal than this. And there has been an ongoing 20 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: discussion about when this case is actually going to come 21 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: to trial. These cases, they'll all be held in one accort. 22 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: You've got four charges of murder. This is a capital 23 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: case where Brian Coberger has been accused. He has not 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: been convicted, and that's important for us to remember. But 25 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: we have to remember what happened to these four young people, 26 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: Zana kernodle Ethan Chapin. We've got Matty Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalvez, 27 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: and they all have a story to tell by all 28 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: the remains of their bodies, and that's one of the 29 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: big things that we're kind of missing right now. We 30 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: don't know the extent of the injuries. But let me 31 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: ask you a quick question and please respond. This is important. 32 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: How many of you guys have seen this infamous image 33 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: that has floated around since twenty twenty two that there 34 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: appears to be drippage of blood rolling down the foundation 35 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: of the house, that show of hands as any Okay, 36 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, of course we're the 37 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: first people to publish this. We could talk to our 38 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: friend Joe blood spatter expert, and she would concur with 39 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: what I'm about to say. As chilling as that image is, 40 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: I cannot say that that is in fact blood. It 41 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: looks like blood, But anybody that knows anything about forensics. 42 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: You know, we don't just go by site. We have 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 1: to test things to try to understand if in fact 44 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: that substance is blood. However, that gives you an indication 45 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: of the level horror as to what went on King Road, 46 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: because if that is in fact blood, you've got four 47 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: victims that all died of sharp force injuries, and the 48 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: environment would have to have been a wash in blood 49 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,839 Speaker 1: because you literally have blood, if that is what that is, 50 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: seeping beneath that seam and coming to rest on the 51 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: foundation being pulled down slowly by gravity. So if you 52 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: can take that one view, take that one view and 53 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: try to transport yourself just for a moment, as to 54 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: what the interior of that house would look like, it's 55 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: mind blowing. You've got a lot of commingling of evidence. 56 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: We've got Kayley and her friend Maddie that are in 57 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: the same bedroom on the third floor of this home 58 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: that was being rented. Their blood would have been everywhere 59 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: more than likely. The description that we have caught pieces 60 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: of over this period of Thomas by many of these investigators, 61 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: and some of these are very seasoned investigators, including members 62 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: of the FBI response team. This is one of the 63 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: most brutal homicides they've ever borne witnessed to, and that 64 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: complicates matters relative to the friends evidence. It's there. You think, 65 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: the more blood that you have, there's a high probability 66 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: that you're going to be able to pinpoint who might 67 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: have done this, the nature of the injuries. But when 68 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: you walk into a scene, particularly where you have multiple 69 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: stab wounds and multiple victims, it's very dynamic and you 70 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: have overlay of blood, the deposition of blood, and then 71 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: the positionality of the bodies. What kind of movement are 72 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: you talking about? So in the upstairs bedroom, the third floor, 73 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: where Mattie is found along with Kaylee, her friend, and 74 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: they've been these young ladies have been friends since they 75 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: were wee little ones. They've known each other their entire lives. 76 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: One had just graduated and was moving on to Dallas 77 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: to start a career. Her friend was a senior and 78 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: was also about to graduate. They were about to get 79 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: on one of the rest of their lives and it 80 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: ended up there in that bedroom, and it was a 81 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: tiny bedroom. Interestingly enough, Kally Gonzalez, who was one of 82 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: the victims on the third floor, her father has seen 83 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: the crime scene photos, and he stated that you could 84 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: not open the door, that there's no way that Matty 85 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: Mugen or Kally Gonzalez could have opened the door to 86 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: get out because her friend's feet were blocking the door, 87 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: and just let me demonstrate the position she was in. So, 88 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: according to mister Gonzalez, who's been very vocal throughout this 89 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: case because he sees the thing moving at such a 90 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: slow pace, and he's used the words incompetent many times 91 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: as to how the scene is handled. The images that 92 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: he claims that he saw demonstrated his little girl in 93 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: this position against the wall, her legs extended like this, 94 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: soaked in blood, and it's such a tight space that 95 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: there is no way that she could have arisen from 96 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: this position and crossed over to eggs at the door 97 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: because the room was so very tight. Essentially, this room 98 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: had enough room to contain a mattress, and of course 99 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: Maddie was found on the mattress or adjacent to it, 100 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: and it's beneath her where the knife sheath was found. 101 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: I've got a great wife. Sometimes I questioned the gifts 102 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: that she buys me. I'd been covering the case or 103 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: sometimes so she goes onto Amazon and if there's any 104 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: authorities here, I don't have the knife with me. This 105 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: is merely the sheath. Don't put the bracelets on me. 106 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: She bought me the exact knife, and this is what's 107 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: referred to as a USMC k bar knife. Our troops 108 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: in America have carried this knife actually before World War Two. 109 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: This is a combat knife. As a matter of fact, 110 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: in the United States Marine Corps they have a field 111 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: manual for everything. There is actually a training field manual 112 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: about how to use this in combat to specifically for 113 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: this weapon. Our Marine Corps still carries these weapons right 114 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: out of the box. I'm rather hair sued. I could 115 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: have shaved every bit of hair off of my face 116 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: with this thing. And it is heavy. I mean it's 117 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: very very heavy. And this sheath will come into play 118 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: as we continue to talk about the case. But beneath 119 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: her body was the knife sheath, so you began to 120 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: think about whoever the perpetrator was. It was locked up 121 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: in this tiny little space adjacent to a mattress. These 122 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: two young women that were sleeping in this bed, something 123 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: that they had done together since they were we little ones. 124 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: One was back visiting celebrating her graduation wanted to show 125 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: off from you Ford Bronco that she had a sorry 126 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: range rover that she had purchased in town to have 127 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: a bit of fun. Were brutally assaulted in this room, 128 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: and the perpetrator apparently left behind the knife sheath. Then 129 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: we have to go downstairs to the second floor of 130 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: this residence, and the residence is quite interesting in and 131 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: of itself, but on the second floor we Xana Canodle, 132 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: who is one of the leases that in dwells this place, 133 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: and her boyfriend. They're found. His name is Ethan Chapin. 134 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: They're found in her bedroom. When Xenna is examined, it 135 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: turns out, according to the authorities, that she fought back ferociously. 136 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: If you'll extend your hand like this, okay, it's like this, 137 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: and look at your palm. Okay, you have a series 138 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: of ligaments in the palm of your hand. She had 139 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: grabbed hold of the blade and through her ligaments and 140 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: tendence was cut down to the bone where she had 141 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: grabbed this combat knife and it had been drug through 142 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: her hand in a recent release, and this is something 143 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: that we never knew. Her boyfriend, Ethan, is found on 144 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: the bed. She's on the floor. Eaton's on the bed, 145 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: and he's a tall fellow. He's one of one of triplets. Okay, 146 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: he's had he's got two other siblings. He's a freshman, 147 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: she's a junior. His legs are carved up. How bizarre, right, 148 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: Who has time to take a combat knife and carve 149 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: somebody's legs up? Who does this in this kind of 150 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: frenzied attack, Because the wind of time that we're talking 151 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: about relative to this attack is so small. We're talking 152 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: about an event that would have taken maybe some people 153 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: have said as many as twelve and is as lease 154 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: as less as as six minutes to go from multiple 155 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: floors in this odd structure. And we'll get into that 156 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: in just a sect. Get into the multiple floors and 157 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: navigate this area and pull off four homicides with a 158 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: single weapon, not a firearm, okay. And each one of 159 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: these victims has got multiple, according to authorities, multiple stab 160 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: wounds and slices over the surfaces of their bodies. Now, 161 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: when the police arrived the next day, this is actually 162 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: November thirteenth, I think the recordings at fourteenth. It's the thirteenth, 163 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: I think when this began to occur that morning it 164 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: was late in the morning. You have two of the 165 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: roommates that survived that were in this structure. They had 166 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: been out drinking but had returned home at about one am. 167 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: There's been a big question as to was anything heard 168 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: because I don't know about you guys. I talked about 169 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: this yesterday when we were speaking speaking about Ellen Greenberg. 170 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: If ainy of you guys were in that session. The 171 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: pain that someone sustains as a result of any kind 172 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: of sharp force injury, being cut, being stabbed. I use 173 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: the example of a paper cut, and how painful a 174 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: paper cut is. Pain centers begin to fire. Now you've 175 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 1: got four people there's sustaining multiple stab wounds and slices. 176 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: Is it possible that this could have been facilitated and 177 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: no one heard a peep? The other two roommates, one 178 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: is on the first floor, which is actually technically the basement. 179 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: The structure is really bizarre. The second floor where Zana 180 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: and her boyfriend Ethan were. There's another roommate down the hall. 181 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: Who's the person that winds up saying that she saw 182 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: the person? How many of you guys, what's the distinguishing 183 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: factor that she said? Dylan Morton said, bushy eyebrows, and 184 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: he's wearing I think what's referred to. Many believe it 185 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: was bala kava, which is covering like this. You see it. 186 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: We saw it during COVID people would wear these, they 187 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: become popular at that time, and you saw the bushy eyebrows. 188 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: She describes this individual as being athletic, not fat, but slim, 189 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: had the body of a swimmer, perhaps that kind of 190 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: wide shoulders, that sort of thing, and no one hears 191 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: anything as far as pain centers firing and people screaming 192 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: in agony. At one point in time, they thought Dylan 193 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: thought Dylan Mortenson, the surviving roommate on the second floor, 194 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: thought she heard somebody say it's going to be okay. 195 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to help you. But that has not been 196 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: pegged down specifically as if the perpetrator that was up 197 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: there heard her weeping and was going to help her 198 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: at some point in time. So there's a lot of 199 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: confusion there has been from Jump Street relative to in 200 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: this case. I love coming to Great Britain. I love 201 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: coming to England, and one of the reasons is London 202 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: is great. It's fantastic, but I love being in your countryside. 203 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: I love coming to little villages so charming. I love it. 204 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: This is an isolated location, very isolated. No crime happens 205 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: here in this place, particularly something of this level of brutality. 206 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: It's near the Washington state border, if you're familiar with 207 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: Washington State, and as a matter of fact, directly across 208 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: the state line is Pullman, Washington is the home of 209 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: Washington State University. These individuals were attending school at the 210 00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: University of Idaho, and essentially there's two different routes you 211 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: can take from one university to the other. One is 212 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: about ten miles, the other is about eight. Okay, so 213 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: you can traversus area. Kids go back and forth and 214 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: go to parties on both campuses, this sort of thing. 215 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: But it's not something that you would necessarily suspect in 216 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: this quiet little hamlet there. All that's there is this 217 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: university and it supports the city. As a matter of fact, 218 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: the police in America, our universities actually have their own 219 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: police forces, Okay, not in this place. The police force 220 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: served both the city as well as the university. So 221 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: you've got this kind of cooperative relationship that goes on 222 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: between the city and the university, and they deal with 223 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: things like you know, underage drinking, you know pot, you 224 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: know those sorts of things. They'll have fights that happen 225 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: on fraternity row, but nothing that really rises to this level. 226 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: I think that that's one of the reasons that it 227 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: threw a monkey wrench into the situation to begin with, 228 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: because when they stepped off to handle this case, it 229 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: was being handled by the local police department, and they 230 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: didn't secure the scene immediately, and we still to this 231 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: point don't know how many people entered and left the scene. 232 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: We have some images that indicate that there were people 233 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: that walked through the scene. First off, they're not kitted 234 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: out like we do in forensic science or forensic investigators, 235 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: where you're wearing like the Taibek suits we call them 236 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: the bunny suits, the white suits. You seen Joe wearing, 237 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: those hair nets or hair covering, shoe coverings, gloves, all 238 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. You'll see people coming and going 239 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: out of this place. It was not locked down. State 240 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: police showed up and then they consulted the FBI because 241 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: they knew that this was so far beyond their ability 242 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: to handle. And it takes a lot of time to 243 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: get these wheels and and that time is important. We 244 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: do know this. The coroner for this little county, who 245 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: by trade is a nurse, and she's also an attorney. 246 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: It's an elected official. She gave a very interesting interview. 247 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: I guess it was probably two days after the events 248 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: that had occurred. And the reason I say that it's 249 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: interesting because the medical legal world is a world that 250 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: I come from. Corners generally don't make comments about things, 251 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: particularly as it applies to homicides. We're part of the team. 252 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 1: We're inside what I refer to as the investigative bubble. 253 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: But she comes out and Flatley says, it appears as 254 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: though they were all asleep. And she says this in 255 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: an interview, and this is blasted out all over the 256 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,479 Speaker 1: US because all eyes are on this thing by this time. Well, 257 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: as I have spoken of already, it's obvious that they 258 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 1: were not all asleep, because when I don't know what 259 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: you guys think when you hear they were all asleep, 260 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, Goldilocks, she's lying in bed and 261 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: she's got the covers. You know she's sleeping. That's not 262 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: what happened. This is a very dynamic situation. Many of us, 263 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: when I would talk to colleagues and forensics. Before we 264 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: saw kind of the Zillow images that they had posted 265 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: of this place, we were thinking that we were dealing 266 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: with a sex offender that may have been what's commonly 267 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: referred to as a panty sniffer that kind of start 268 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: off at that level. They'll break in, get access to clothing, 269 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: take trophies and that sort of thing, and that there 270 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: was possibly a closeted area where they could kind of, 271 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, creep inside and sit there. None of the 272 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: closets have doors on them misplace, so we knew right 273 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: away that someone probably had to come in. But the 274 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: house itself is so incredibly complex in the way it's structured, 275 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: because the thing's been added onto multiple times over the years. 276 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: There's no way that all four of these people were 277 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: sleep when this happened. There's even we know that there 278 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: was a door dash order that came in from Xana 279 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: that was right approximating four am. She had received this order, 280 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: and it was shortly after that that hell broke loose 281 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: in that house. Many people were thinking maybe it was 282 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: the DoorDash guy. Earlier in the evening, Mattie and Kaylee 283 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: had been bar hopping, which teenagers do, or young adults do, 284 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: particularly when you're in college. We've got images of them 285 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: on a food truck from CCTV. You can tell that 286 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: they're probably a bit inebriated. Their gait is kind of unsteady, 287 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: you know when you see them in the images. And 288 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: then a private party picked them up and took them 289 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: back to the residence, and the police excluded that individual. 290 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: We knew that it wasn't that person that had perpetrated 291 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: his crime. So we're to the sheath. Now the sheath 292 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: is comes in. I think there there are folks that 293 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: that think that we'll speak I'll speak his name now. 294 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: Brian Coberger had had essentially been caught as a result 295 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: of this Hyundai Alantra. I'm supposing you guys have Hyundai 296 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: products over here. Hyundai A Lantras are everywhere in America. 297 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: They're inexpensive, many people drive them. There's thousands and thousands 298 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: of these things riding around the road, and the most 299 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: common color is white, and he had a white one, 300 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: all right. I think many folks thought that, well, you know, 301 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: it's as a result of the car that he was 302 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: driving that they were able to peg this down. And 303 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: they knew that it was him Visa VI that. Interestingly enough, 304 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: the Hyundai from the police perspective is actually the validation 305 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: of the DNA evidence that they have allegedly found. So 306 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: back to the discovery of the sheath, it's a leather sheath. 307 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: When they tested this thing, they detected Visa visa snap 308 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: right here. And afterwards, you guys are welcome to come 309 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: up and take a look at the scene and hold 310 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: it and you can kind of actuate it if you 311 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: want to, right around the rim right here. And everybody 312 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: knows about button snaps. You have them in your home, 313 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: you might have them on your clothing. Pops open like this. 314 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: It's believed that he may, as a result of practicing 315 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: with this thing with an ungloved hand, may have raked 316 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: his thumb or maybe his index finger over the surface. 317 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: And this things got a lip right here. So as 318 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: you do this, what kind of DNA is left behind? 319 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: Touched DNA? That's right, because we slough what anybody know, 320 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: what do we sluff? Every day? Jurgens has made millions 321 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: and millions of dollars right skin lotion. We lose thousands 322 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: and thousands of skin cells every day, and you're not 323 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: aware of it. It just happens. We all have dry skin. 324 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: He's apparently dropped potentially some touch DNA in this area, 325 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: and when they swabbed this area, that's where they got 326 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: to hit from over the entire surface of this thing, 327 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: that's where they found it. I had one colleague that 328 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 1: had postulated that they envisioned him sitting in a seat 329 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: practicing with this thing. You know, how to handle it, 330 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: how to operate it, how to unsnap the thing, this 331 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and he was very careful to handle it, 332 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: but he forgot that one little space and did not 333 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: clean it up. And it kind of fits with one 334 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: of my suppositions early on that it's kind of embarrassing, 335 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: I guess, but I'll go ahead and admit it. I 336 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: knew that whoever had done this, and if they had 337 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: left in a motor vehicle, they would have been covered 338 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: in blood. And early on when I was interviewed in 339 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: the case, my comment was that whoever did this would 340 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: be super saturated in blood, there would be a tremendous 341 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: amount of transfer evidence within the vehicle. That wasn't the case. 342 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: And just so you know how these vehicle searches go 343 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: when they get their hands on one of these vehicles, 344 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: every bloody thing's coming out. Seats come out, headliner comes out, 345 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: gearlever comes out, steering wheel comes out, the dash will 346 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: come out, they'll pull the carpet, they'll do everything. And 347 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: my suspicion is that vehicle went to probably the FBI 348 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: crime lab it's located in Pennsylvania, where they affected the 349 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: rest on coburger. They took this thing apart from stem 350 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: to stern. One of the fascinating comments the FBI made 351 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: about the car, and we don't really know the genesis 352 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: of this or how they have established this, was that 353 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: he had cleaned it over and over and over again. 354 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: And of course, when he was arrested at his parents' 355 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: house in the Poconos, he was found wearing what does 356 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: anyone know, gloves and what else. He merely had a 357 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: T shirt and some people had said shorts or his underwear, 358 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: and he's wearing gloves, and he's transferring rubbish from one 359 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: bag to another that he could seal up and take 360 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: off individually and deposit. So, if that is the case, 361 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: and he's been accused not convicted, he has an awareness 362 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: that Lacarte's principle, which, of course if you're not familiar 363 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: with Edmond Lecarte. He's the godfather of forensics as far 364 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. He made a statement many years ago, 365 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: does anyone know what it is? What every contact does, 366 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: what leaves a trace? So a perpetrator will leave something 367 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: of themselves behind that will take something with them. Okay, 368 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: that we cannot go everywhere you're seated right now, as 369 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, wherever your bottom is planted. Okay, 370 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: you're in contact with other people's DNA right now, you 371 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: will take that away with you when you exit this room. Okay, 372 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: where your hands are right now, any objects you're touching, 373 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: there's a potential for that. And lecard knew that over 374 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: one hundred years ago. Coburger had gone to undergraduate at 375 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: the Sales University and allegedly had a fascination with crime 376 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: scenes and serial killers. Now, Katherine Ramslin, how many of 377 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: you guys are familiar with doctor Ramslan. Your shoulder almost 378 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: became disjointed when you said that. Yeah, I know Katherin Ramsley. 379 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: She's one of the leading experts in America on serial killers. 380 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: She actually helped bet and this is kind of chilling. 381 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: She helped BTK write his memoir, which is kind of 382 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: on a real creepy level to me. But that aside, 383 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: he studied under her and they have a crime scene 384 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: house at the sales, and at the sales they trained 385 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: their undergraduate students how to basically process crime scene. I 386 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: take exception. Many times in the new particularly the news media, 387 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: they conflate criminologists with forensic science, and they're completely different things. 388 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: They're not the same. If you have a degree in criminology, 389 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: God bless you, I'm happy for you, but you're studying 390 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: criminal behavior, it's not forensic science. But they get a 391 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: taste of it in her world. So he would have 392 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: had an awareness of what it would take in order 393 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: to try to defeat anything that we're going to do 394 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: it to scene to collect any kind of evidence there. 395 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: And when I think that when the police began to 396 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: kind of explore his background and understand this, particularly in 397 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: the light of the fact that they retrieved this DNA 398 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: and then they confirmed that with a trash pull that 399 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: they got from the family home, this linked back to 400 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: his father, and you know, it's forensic genetic genealogies, like 401 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: having the finger pointed at you by cousin you've never 402 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: met essentially, is what it comes down to, and that's 403 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,239 Speaker 1: what happened in this case, that put them on the 404 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: scent of him, and then they were able to in 405 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: their minds, the police, that is, validate their supposition with 406 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: the existence of this white Hyundai a Lantra that had 407 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: been driving about town that they were catching flashes of 408 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: all about town through CCTV. But they could not clean 409 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: those images up enough to be able to fully appreciate 410 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: who was operating the vehicle. They couldn't get a tag 411 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: off of it. But yet this vehicle sat in the 412 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: parking lot of his rented apartment in Pullman, Washington, which 413 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: again is only seven to eight ten miles away, and 414 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: they had driven past it multiple times over there. So 415 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: the dominoes began to fall relative to this. And there 416 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: have been a variety of times over the course of 417 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: this odyssey that we've been on since twenty twenty two 418 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: with his case regarding leakage that's coming out in the press. 419 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: I had stated plainly the other day or yesterday that 420 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, my image actually appeared and that he had 421 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: been watching some of my comments on air in the interim, 422 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: and it turned out to be about a six week 423 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: interim between the time that these were these homici sides 424 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: were committed and that they finally put the bracelets on 425 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: him in Pennsylvania, and you know, me personally sent a 426 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: chill up my spine. You know that I was kind 427 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: of in the mix. You know that any comment that 428 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: I would make on air about it that he was hearing, 429 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: you know. So again it was this weird kind of intersectionality, 430 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, with that. And he had had enough time, 431 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: I think, to try to put as much distance between 432 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: himself and the crimes as he possibly could, but of 433 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: course he failed miserably. Now to the house. How many 434 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: of you guys have had a homicide committed in your hometown? 435 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: Let me ask another question. In your town wherever you're from, 436 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: that location, Let's say it's a dwelling. Has that dwelling 437 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: been torn down? I've actually worked in both New Orleans 438 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: and Atlanta homicides at the same location. In cases that 439 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: are not related. New occupants come in and a homicide 440 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: is committed by that group of people as well. Let 441 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: that sink in just for a second. When the single 442 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: most valuable pieces of information was this house, and the 443 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: house is gone, people don't talk a lot about forensic 444 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: how we use sound in forensics. It's very important when 445 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: you begin to think about how sound travels. There are 446 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: not enough three D models. There are not enough homemade 447 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,719 Speaker 1: models that you can bring into court where you can 448 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: try to understand the acoustic dynamics. And a dwelling that 449 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: doesn't exist. This isn't like the holid deck on the 450 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: Star trek Okay on The Enterprise if you remember that show. 451 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: So if our idea is that no one hurt anything 452 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: on the adjacent floors when all of this is happening, 453 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: that just kind of goes out into the ether, right, 454 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: It's not something that can be proven now the structure 455 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: is completely gone. We had the Parkland shooting in Florida 456 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: many years ago in America, if you're familiar with this, 457 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: where this maniac goes into this high school on Valentine's 458 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: Day and begins shooting students, right. They locked that thing 459 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: down for years with chain link fencing all the way 460 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: around it, security monitors. It was on Valentine's Day. There 461 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: were still little teddy bears with hearts on them and 462 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: crushed roses and all these sorts of things in bloodstains everywhere, 463 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: and they took the jury there and the press went 464 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: in with them, and it triggered something within the jury 465 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: where they were suddenly put in that place and they 466 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: could understand the dynamics of that environment. This is absent 467 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: in this case, arguably one of the most high profile 468 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: cases in the US in the last decade. I'd say 469 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: one of the biggest pieces of physical evidence has gone. Now. 470 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: There have been questions about how things were removed from 471 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: the scene. There's one kind of famous image of an 472 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: entire mattress being taken out of the house. It was 473 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: not covered. It was placed into the back of a 474 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: pickup truck to be hauled away. Standard you would wrap 475 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: it in like butcher paper, placed it in the back 476 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: of a covered van and take it away. When the 477 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: Gonzolveuses received their daughter, Kaylee's belongings, they actually sent back 478 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: her trash can that was in her room. It still 479 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: had an orange juice apple juice in it that had 480 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: not been examined. There was still trash in there that 481 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: they had not pulled out of the thing. Trash pulls 482 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: inside of crime scenes, particularly where a double homicide has 483 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: been committed in that room, is something. I'm not giving 484 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: it back to the family, I'm sorry, And even early 485 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 1: on they had stated that they were going to allow 486 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: personal items to be taken out of the house and 487 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: given back to the family before Coburger was arrested. Slightly 488 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: before they sent in a crime scene cleanup team, they 489 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: had a plastic tunnel that had been constructed so that 490 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: you could make entry into the place that Coburger was arrested. 491 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: He immediately got a defense counsel and they said, whoa, whoa, whoa. 492 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: And as by his right, he needs to be able 493 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: to examine. Seeing his team needs to be able, you 494 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: might think that, well, no, he needs to get what's 495 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: coming to him. Yeah, okay, if he's guilty, he does, 496 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: but you're going to have a real problem if he 497 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: doesn't have access. And all along from the perspective of 498 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: forensic evidence, the house has been kind of the concentric 499 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: location of some of the biggest pitfalls with this case. 500 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: The fact that items were removed from the house and 501 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: turned back over to the family, the idea of them 502 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: sending a crime scene clean up, just the thought of 503 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: them doing that and not holding back, and then of 504 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: course the university purchasing the pride the actual property, and 505 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: they had this thing raised, and they're going to turn 506 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: it into a memorial. I'm all for memorials, okay, But 507 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: there's a time and a place for everything. I think 508 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: everybody would agree. I don't care how sad it makes 509 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: you feel. I don't care if it makes you feel 510 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: icky when you walk by it. You know who feels 511 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: icky right now? You know feels sad the parents of 512 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: these victims. And they fought tooth and nail to try 513 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: to have this thing maintained, and both of the fence 514 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: and the prosecution agreed to have it ripped down. Never 515 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: in my experience have I ever seen a homicide scene 516 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: pulled down like this, particularly prior to a trial. This 517 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: is going to come into play in this case. One 518 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: last thing, there's been a big data release that took 519 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: place from the Dateline program. In that data dump, we 520 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: begin to see images that someone within the investigative team 521 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: has released to the media and to Dateline and their producers. 522 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: We've now got imagery of Brian Coburger in various poses 523 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: with his hoodie over his head looking you remember there 524 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: was another one that came out a few weeks prior, 525 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: where it looked like he had just gotten out of 526 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,720 Speaker 1: the shower and he's kind of smiling like that. Hairs 527 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: kind of combed over shower curtains immediately behind him or 528 00:36:55,080 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: the showers immediately behind him. There's been digital data that 529 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: has been released now of from CCTV where you can 530 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: see the car going by. We never saw that before, 531 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: and for some reason, someone decided to release all this information. 532 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: Howard Bloom has written a book that I'm not here 533 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: to sell his book in any way, but he had 534 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: access early on. He showed up in Idaho and began 535 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: talking to the cops. And guess who's releasing a book 536 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: in July. James Patterson. And everybody's familiar with James Patterson. 537 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: He's written about this now. So this thing, the dynamics 538 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: of this case and the way this is going to 539 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: play out, no one knows, but I do know this. 540 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: This is a death penalty case. All of this data 541 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: dump that has taken place might not affect the trial immediately, 542 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: but if he's found guilty, this is going up on 543 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: appeal automatically in America. And guess where this all will 544 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: come into play. It's going to come into play in 545 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: the appellate level. We'll see how it plays out live 546 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: from Crime Con twenty twenty five in London. I'm Joseph 547 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Bags