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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, welcome to another edition of the Book of

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Speaker 1: Joe Podcast with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden. Joe,

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Speaker 1: we're almost three weeks into the season so far. You

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Speaker 1: got a quick take on what you've seen so far?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've been I have been watching a

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Speaker 2: lot more this year. You know, it's there's there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of there's some really close games, there's some blowouts.

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Speaker 2: It's it's on both sides of the defense, and overall,

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Speaker 2: I think everybody's probably paying more attention.

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Speaker 3: To the rules as much as anything else.

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Speaker 2: I have been really following the base the bases and

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Speaker 2: the base running. I watched Pittsburgh kind of destroy Colorado

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Speaker 2: on the basis they did the safety squeeze. Looks like

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Speaker 2: Shelty brought the safety squeeze and the base running into Pittsburgh,

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Speaker 2: and they're really showing their athleticism. I was wondering why

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Speaker 2: they were doing relatively well, very athletic, young team taking

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Speaker 2: advantage of the situation. And again, part of all of

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Speaker 2: this that really to me is obvious, and I guess

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Speaker 2: it's probably to everybody else. It's not the size of

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Speaker 2: the bases. It's the restrictive role rules in regards to

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Speaker 2: holding runners on that's really causing a big difference.

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Speaker 3: So that's really cool because I love.

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Speaker 2: That, except for the fact that I don't like the

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Speaker 2: fact that you have to change the rules to teach

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Speaker 2: people how to become better based dealers. That that bothers me.

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Speaker 2: The fact that we never brought in, you know, really

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Speaker 2: prominent based dealers from the past. If you go out

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Speaker 2: in the morning before the practice begins, take a bunch

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Speaker 2: of guys out the field one and work on different

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Speaker 2: things that causes them, we're permission to become better based dealers,

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Speaker 2: read pictures, better, et cetera. So's it's a fabrication in

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Speaker 2: a sense because it's really not pure based stealing. But nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: I guess the missions have been accomplished there, So that's

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Speaker 2: I've been I've been really focusing on that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I think Pittsburgh really is demonstrating as much

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Speaker 2: as anybody I've seen how to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Joe, eighty three percent success rate on stolen bases,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's actually going to go up. So

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Speaker 1: the teams that can run like Arizona like Pittsburgh, like Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: They're playing good baseball because they're taking advantage of it.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you another thing that I noticed here, and

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Speaker 1: this is nothing new, Joe, and this will get us

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Speaker 1: into our our guest today.

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Speaker 4: I'm really looking forward to this.

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Speaker 1: Two and a half weeks into the season, there are

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Speaker 1: one hundred and forty one pitchers on the IL combined

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Speaker 1: have lost almost twenty five hundred days of service already

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Speaker 1: cost major league teams fifty seven million dollars last year

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Speaker 1: on the IL, teams paid get this, four hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty six million dollars to pitchers who can't pitch. Every

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Speaker 1: day the season cost the thirty major league clubs just

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Speaker 1: pitchers alone two point sixty seven million dollars two point

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Speaker 1: sixty seven million dollars a day.

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Speaker 4: For pitchers you can't pitch. There were four hundred and

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Speaker 4: twenty seven.

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Speaker 1: Pitchers on the IL. Last year was eight hundred and

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Speaker 1: seventy one pitchers who actually pitched. So basically half the

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Speaker 1: pitchers are going to get hurt in the course of

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Speaker 1: a season and they're going to cost major league teams

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Speaker 1: half a billion dollars inactivity. So our guest is going

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Speaker 1: to answer all the questions on why this is happening.

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Speaker 1: Please welcome Glenn Fleisig. He is research director at the

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Speaker 1: American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Alabama. He's really one

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Speaker 1: of the recognized leaders in this industry in terms of

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Speaker 1: pitching biomechanics. He's currently the chair of the USA Baseball

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Speaker 1: Medical and Safety Advisory Committee. He's on the medical committee

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Speaker 1: for Major League Baseball, and he's a safety consultant for

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Speaker 1: Little League Baseball. He's essentially all things biomechanical when it

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Speaker 1: comes to pitchers and pitchers health. So Glenn, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Book of Joe podcast.

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Speaker 5: Thanks Tom uh youre here. You just said four hundred

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Speaker 5: million dollars a year, and you want me to explain

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Speaker 5: why and solve it like in a few minutes, So

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Speaker 5: no pressure here, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's all I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's not the sixty four million dollar question, it's the

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Speaker 1: four hundred and eighty six million dollar question. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, you've been studying this for decades.

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Speaker 4: I know, you and.

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Speaker 1: Doctor James Andrews down to Birmingham back in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: We're at the forefront of actually getting these people talking

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Speaker 1: about pictures into the labs and breaking them down biomechanically.

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Speaker 1: Let me start with this, Glenn, why do you think

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing as much as we've learned about pitching injuries,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like we're able to prevent them better.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe we are, and this is just sort of

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Speaker 1: some noise in terms of the numbers.

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Speaker 5: No, I think you're right. There are more injuries than ever.

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Speaker 5: You were talking about. Doctor Andrews and I we started

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Speaker 5: ASMI back in the nineteen eighties and we had a

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Speaker 5: little retreat right at the beginning, and doctor Andrews no,

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Speaker 5: I was a young guy in my twenties. And Doctor

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Speaker 5: Andrews said, okay, my purpose is to put him out

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Speaker 5: of business and to try to prevent injuries. And here

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Speaker 5: we are thirty five years later, and I think we've

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Speaker 5: kind of failed. I mean, we have not really in

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Speaker 5: any sense prevented or eliminated pitching injuries. There are perhaps

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Speaker 5: more pitching injuries than ever at the major league level.

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Speaker 5: We have had some successes, Tom and Joe, but I

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Speaker 5: think some of the things that have happened over the

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Speaker 5: years is good and bad. In the biomechanics, which is

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Speaker 5: studying the mechanics of how pitchers pitch. We've really up

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Speaker 5: the science, as you guys know, Joe used to do

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Speaker 5: it with Tampa Bay, With us and everything, we've really

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Speaker 5: improved the mechanics or biomechanics of many pitchers from major

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Speaker 5: leaguers down to little leaguers, and so improving the mechanics

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Speaker 5: means getting more velocity and maximizing your force of using

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Speaker 5: your whole body. But that's come with the price. There's

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Speaker 5: been a prize that pitchers can pitch faster than ever before,

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Speaker 5: but the price is they're putting more force on their

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Speaker 5: elbow and should before. So through optimizing mechanics and conditioning

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Speaker 5: and nutrition, baseball pitchers are pushing their body to their

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Speaker 5: maximum performance now and kind of redlining it and getting

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Speaker 5: that maximum performance, but always teetering on the edge of

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Speaker 5: overuse injury.

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Speaker 3: I just want to ask a question there, Glenn.

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Speaker 2: A lot of this emphasis has regarding biomechanics and teaching,

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Speaker 2: from my perspective, has been more geared towards just throwing

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Speaker 2: harder and not necessarily becoming a better pitcher. But to

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Speaker 2: what extent do you think it is that's just this

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Speaker 2: chasing velocity all the time putting a greater torque on

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Speaker 2: the arm, not necessarily understanding how to shape a pitch

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Speaker 2: down and a way have a ball start as to

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Speaker 2: strike become a baller vice versa knowing how to elevate

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Speaker 2: and when, and really having your thoughts more focused on

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Speaker 2: pitching as opposed to attempting to throw hard. At some point,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's you know, the arm could only take

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Speaker 2: so much, I would think, I mean the the the.

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Speaker 3: Body says, no, no, that's that's enough. You can't throw

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Speaker 3: any harder than that.

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Speaker 2: So does there need to be greater attention apply to

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Speaker 2: the art of pitching itself and not so much the

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Speaker 2: art of velocity? And would that help a little bit

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Speaker 2: in regards to limiting this And there's already been brought

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Speaker 2: up I mean throwing less.

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Speaker 3: I don't understand throwing less.

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Speaker 2: I mean the fact that people want to have guys

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Speaker 2: throw less in order to prevent injury.

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Speaker 3: Obviously it is not working.

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Speaker 2: So I'm just wondering regarding that there's too much emphasis

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Speaker 2: on velocity and not enough emphasis on throwing more.

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Speaker 5: Joe, I love this and I agree one hundred percent

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Speaker 5: with what you're saying. And of course you know you

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Speaker 5: have the background and experience of being in the game,

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Speaker 5: whereas some scientists like me or scientists are on the outside.

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Speaker 5: But yes, the team who wins is not the picture

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Speaker 5: who has the highest radar gun speed. It's the team

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Speaker 5: that gives us the least run. And so we've done

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Speaker 5: some biomechanical studies looking at the relationship between fastball velocity

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Speaker 5: and your torque on your elbow, the stress on the

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Speaker 5: Tommy John on the elbow, and we found that the

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Speaker 5: torque on the elbow varied a lot from picture to pitcher.

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Speaker 5: But within any picture, the more velocity they throw, the

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Speaker 5: more tork heros on the elbow. So some of that

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Speaker 5: might be intuitive. The reason different pictures have more torque

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Speaker 5: than others is some pictures have better mechanics, but within

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Speaker 5: any person, the more velocity to throw, the more torque.

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Speaker 5: So our studies have shown that to succeed, particularly as

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Speaker 5: a starting pitcher, you should do the things that you

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Speaker 5: were talking about show you should vary your velocities, you

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Speaker 5: shouldn't max effort every pitch. You should mets around on

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Speaker 5: the batters and vary your speeds you pitch, your locations,

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Speaker 5: et cetera. And to succeed as a pitcher, not as

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Speaker 5: a thrower. To succeed as a pitcher and be healthy

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Speaker 5: and successful, the pictures should vary the velocity. The problem

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Speaker 5: comes down to the teams are scouting and signing people

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Speaker 5: based on their radar gun speed, and whether it's kids

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Speaker 5: in the Dominican Republic or high school pitchers in Kentucky.

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Speaker 5: Pitchers think their ticket to the Major League is the

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Speaker 5: raider gun and it pays, you know, because the teams

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Speaker 5: who are scouting these players are over emphasizing just the

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Speaker 5: pure speed. They should really be looking at more factors

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Speaker 5: such as how good a picture they are. And because

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Speaker 5: you get paid for velocity, the pitchers are gearing for that,

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Speaker 5: but that is not the ticket for success.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're chasing, You're chasing technology the whole time.

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Speaker 2: You're not necessarily chasing the art of pitching, the pitching,

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Speaker 2: pitching the baseball learning from you know, guys that have

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Speaker 2: done it before, whether it's a former great code chase,

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Speaker 2: former great player. And also, I think with this technique

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Speaker 2: or this method, you're really shortening the lifespan of pictures.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that you're gonna blow out if

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Speaker 2: this is all you're doing, is chasing velocity and this

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Speaker 2: incredible torque that your body cannot handle at the expense

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Speaker 2: of really learning how to become a pitcher. And then furthermore,

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Speaker 2: I just think organizationally, it becomes disposable. We'll get another one.

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Speaker 2: We'll get another one. Teach him, I have to throw

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Speaker 2: hundred miles an hour, use him for three three years

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Speaker 2: or so, and then eventually going to get another one.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, listen, I've always and I've been preaching this

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Speaker 2: in all the different podcasts we've done and different events

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Speaker 2: that I've done. It's just about balance, and nobody understands

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Speaker 2: balance anymore. Everybody wants extremism with everything that we're doing.

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Speaker 2: You want extreme velocity at the expense of pitchability, the

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Speaker 2: ability for a longer career. The guy that can't throw

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Speaker 2: into the third time round the batting order because he

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Speaker 2: knows how to navigate with different pitches and change up

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Speaker 2: and speeds and feel. So these are the things that

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Speaker 2: I argued for, and I still argue for obviously right now.

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Speaker 2: But it's great to hear you saying these things because

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Speaker 2: you're actually validating a lot of what I thought.

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Speaker 3: Not that it's always good to be validated. Right.

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Speaker 5: You know, the guy who only has one gear max effort,

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Speaker 5: the guy who throws high speed, double or triple digits

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Speaker 5: and high speed. If a team is kind of accepting

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Speaker 5: that this who this guy is, he's more geared to

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Speaker 5: being a one inning relief pitcher, of course, but the

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Speaker 5: starting pitchers to have any longevity and success, you're going

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Speaker 5: to have to be able to have a better style

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Speaker 5: in pitching and also vary your velocities.

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Speaker 1: Joe, you used to I think a key word there, disposable, right,

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Speaker 1: And I think what's happened is that, yes, pitchers are

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Speaker 1: getting hurt and teams are going through more pitchers, and

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Speaker 1: that's because the inventory of pitchers who can throw hard

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Speaker 1: is so much greater than it used to be. So

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Speaker 1: there's not a downside for teams to be running this

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Speaker 1: so called system. There were more pitchers used in the

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Speaker 1: big leagues in the first two and a half weeks

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Speaker 1: of this season than in the entire nineteen ninety eight season.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Think about that first two and a half weeks of

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Speaker 4: this year.

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Speaker 1: They are more pitchers used than the entire nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: eight season. And when we talk about velocity, in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, average velocity in the four Sea fastball

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Speaker 1: was ninety one point nine.

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Speaker 4: It last year hit a record zo point nine.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, a ninety four mile an hour pitch now is

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Speaker 1: an average foreseen fastball in the big leagues. And during

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Speaker 1: that time, what we've seen here, and Glenn you can

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Speaker 1: speak to this, we've noticed that the average released height

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Speaker 1: of the pitch has lowered and the extension has gotten greater.

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Speaker 1: So pitchers are getting farther down the mound, they're getting

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Speaker 1: farther out front. We have learned how to teach velocity,

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Speaker 1: which we thought a generation ago was an innate skill.

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Speaker 1: We've learned it's not just nature, it's also nurture. We're

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Speaker 1: teaching guys to throw hard and harder, and that supply

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Speaker 1: is not running out. So, Glenn, I don't think this

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Speaker 1: is going to turn around based on the ability to

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Speaker 1: teach velocity.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, you know, the change has to come

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Speaker 5: from the team's point of view. If the teams think

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Speaker 5: this is a way to succeed just to keep bringing

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Speaker 5: the pictures in and out, that's what's going to happen.

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Speaker 5: But when teams come to realization that for pictures to

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Speaker 5: be successful for a long term contract, that they want

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Speaker 5: to have them stay healthy. They're gonna put more value

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Speaker 5: in the guy who could throw up the batter's timing

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Speaker 5: with changing velocity, that has good mechanics, that has durability,

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Speaker 5: and not just all the emphasis on pitch velocity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pitching is timing. Hitting is the upsetting is timing

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Speaker 3: more spunk.

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Speaker 4: Go ahead, I'm sorry exactly. Hey, we'll take a quick

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Speaker 4: break here when we get back.

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Speaker 1: I have a question I want to ask Glenn Fleisig,

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Speaker 1: which is how far can we go with velocity? What

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Speaker 1: is the human limit? Will be right back, Welcome back, folks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the human limit of pitching? How far can we go?

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Speaker 1: It seems like we keep pushing this number higher and

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Speaker 1: higher in terms of velocity. Glenn, I spoke with you

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Speaker 1: years ago. I think it was story for Tim Linsk,

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Speaker 1: and I want you to retell this story about how

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Speaker 1: far we literally have pushed the envelope in terms of

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Speaker 1: the structure of the human shoulder and how fast that

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Speaker 1: the whole structure moves in the act of throwing a baseball.

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Speaker 1: And I think you told a story about testing that

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Speaker 1: limit with cadavers.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember that.

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Speaker 5: I don't remember exactly, but I've had several conversations like this. So,

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Speaker 5: first of all, the human shoulder in pitching is the

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Speaker 5: fastest motion anyone's measured in any biomechanic study. Okay, the

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Speaker 5: shoulder goes about seven thousand degrees per second near the

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Speaker 5: time of boleis. What that means is three hundred and

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Speaker 5: sixty degrees is one circle, So seven five hundred degrees

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Speaker 5: per second means if you did it for one second,

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Speaker 5: your arm would go around twenty times in one second.

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Speaker 5: So this kind of gives you a feel for how

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Speaker 5: fast the shoulder is moving. It's it's unbelievable, just you've

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Speaker 5: passed up the energy. The force on the shoulder and

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Speaker 5: the elbow when the arm is cocked back to the

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Speaker 5: time of bowl release is really at the maximum effort.

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Speaker 5: You know, as you mentioned, Tom, we have this cadaver

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Speaker 5: research besides our motion analysis research, and what we've seen

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Speaker 5: is the forces we calculate in the pitching lab are

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Speaker 5: actually a little more than the forces the cadavers could

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Speaker 5: take in the cadaver lab. So our science says that

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Speaker 5: an arm should break every single pitch, but obviously it doesn't.

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Speaker 5: But what happens is the cadavers aren't not to be

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Speaker 5: too gross, but they weren't young, healthy men. There were

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Speaker 5: older people. So the point is the elbow and shoulder

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Speaker 5: are pushed to their biomechanical limit pretty much every pitch.

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Speaker 5: The problem is, as pitchers have gone faster and faster,

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Speaker 5: they are getting stronger and stronger with their muscles, and

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Speaker 5: their mechanics are getting more finely tuned. The weak links

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Speaker 5: are the ligaments and tendons. You have ligaments and tendons

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Speaker 5: holding your joints together like the Tommy John ligaman and

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Speaker 5: the elbow and their rotator cup tendons in the shoulder,

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Speaker 5: and people work out and get stronger. Essentially, their muscles

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Speaker 5: get stronger, but it's really hard to strengthen your ligaments

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Speaker 5: and tendons. So what we got is a situation now

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Speaker 5: where by good mechanics and good strength and conditioning, the

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Speaker 5: muscles and the mechanics are overpowering the ligaments and tendons.

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Speaker 5: You ask, what's the maximum velocity? If you asked me

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Speaker 5: ten years ago when rolled as Chapman or whoever was

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Speaker 5: the fastest pictures, I said in several interviews that I

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Speaker 5: don't think the maximum velocity is really going to go up,

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Speaker 5: but I think it's going to be it's a glass

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Speaker 5: ceiling that's going to get more crowded near the top.

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Speaker 5: And I think over the past ten years that it's happened.

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Speaker 5: The max velocity guy might be one mile per hour

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Speaker 5: faster than it was ten years ago, but it's really crowded.

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Speaker 5: Every team has ninety five plus pictures now, so everyone

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Speaker 5: is pushing their body to the limit. But I don't

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Speaker 5: think the limit could go up because I don't think

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Speaker 5: the ligaments and tendance can go farther.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to put words in your mouth,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like we are. We're already at the

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Speaker 1: point where we are pushing the limits of what the

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Speaker 1: human body can do in terms of velocity.

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Speaker 5: Correct, absolutely, but more people are getting to the limit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're one hundred percent right on. It's more

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Speaker 1: crowded at the top. Think about this. From twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty twenty two, just three year period, the number

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Speaker 1: of pitches clocked at one hundred miles an hour tripled,

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Speaker 1: tripled in three years. It went from a thousand over

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Speaker 1: whole season to more than three thousand in a season.

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Speaker 1: The number of guys who hit one hundred miles an

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Speaker 1: hour went from thirty nine and twenty nineteen to sixty

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Speaker 1: four last year, So you can understand why teams are

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Speaker 1: again wedded to this system because it's supply and demand.

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Speaker 4: Supply is not a problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and recording all this to doc guy just this

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Speaker 2: is something I just find curious to have you guys

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Speaker 2: been able to comfortably feel as though you could identify

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Speaker 2: in advance those that might be more susceptible to becoming injured.

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Speaker 2: I mean, for me, if I'm an organization and I'm

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Speaker 2: going into a draft and I got some dudes that

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Speaker 2: I really like a lot, if you have an identifiable method,

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Speaker 2: like what's really more likely going to break down here,

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Speaker 2: I'd want your eyeballs on a lot of these guys

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Speaker 2: in advance. To me, that would be the really interesting

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Speaker 2: part or component of what you are doing mechanically biomechanically. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can help deliveries. I understand that, and I'm into

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Speaker 2: all that. But is there any way to identify in

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Speaker 2: advance somebody that you think is high susceptibility?

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Speaker 5: Yes, Joe, I love your questions that just leave me

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Speaker 5: in the right direction. You know, ten twenty years ago

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Speaker 5: to say how how much risk a guy has. All

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Speaker 5: you had was the radar gun. You say, he throws

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Speaker 5: ninety five and he throws ninety, so he must have

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Speaker 5: a higher risk. But now we have biomechanics. Tom As

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Speaker 5: you were saying, I've been doing this for a long

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Speaker 5: time at ASMI in Birmingham website ASMI dot org. And

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Speaker 5: it used to be when Joe was with Tampa Bay

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Speaker 5: and the other teams, they were sending pictures to Birmingham

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Speaker 5: in the drugs minor leaguers in particular, and we were

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Speaker 5: testing dozens and dozens of pictures from dozens of teams.

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Speaker 5: What's happened over the last ten years is there's been

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Speaker 5: a revolution. I'm calling it the new money ball, where

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Speaker 5: teams are trying for a competitive advantage and are using biomechanics.

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Speaker 5: What's happened is teams used to just come to me.

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Speaker 5: I was the only show in town. But now teams

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Speaker 5: are hiring biomechanists. More than two thirds of the team's

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Speaker 5: employee biomechanists, and teams have biomechanics equipment. So you could

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Speaker 5: measure a picture and see that he's throwing faster than him,

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Speaker 5: but he's actually putting more stress in his arm and

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Speaker 5: it's because his mechanics are bad, the timing is bad

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Speaker 5: for his tips, or his arm is late. So I'm

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Speaker 5: really excited that essentially biomechanics has left my lab and

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Speaker 5: is now at each team's training facility. And we've actually

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Speaker 5: created a society the last three years called the American

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Speaker 5: Baseball Biomechanics Society, And because we're trying to standardize what

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Speaker 5: biomechanists do and what equipment is good and things like that,

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Speaker 5: and it's really exciting that biomechanics is now essentially in

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Speaker 5: the teams to try to understand who is good mechanics

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Speaker 5: and who is stressful mechanics.

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Speaker 2: It's like any other coach, though Glenn, some are better

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Speaker 2: than others. I mean, you're trying to develop these these

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Speaker 2: different departments within your organization. And as you started talking

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Speaker 2: about that, I just went right to mental skills. When

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Speaker 2: that began, you know, back in the day with Ken Rivisa,

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Speaker 2: and then it leads us Steve into today that were

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Speaker 2: to me, I think there's a dearth of really good

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Speaker 2: mental skills and coaches.

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Speaker 3: In the game.

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Speaker 2: So just because you have all the equipment and just

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Speaker 2: because the numbers read certain things that that necessarily make

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Speaker 2: you good at this, or need you the glood of

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Speaker 2: experience to be able to read this properly understand the

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Speaker 2: nuance of what you're seeing, or is it just pretty

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Speaker 2: much cut and dry you get you go buy this machine,

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Speaker 2: and you go hire some kid out of MIT, and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden he's looking at this stuff and

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Speaker 2: he's going to be equally as good as you at

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Speaker 2: reading this information.

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Speaker 5: Well, shout out to MIT. That's my college. But okay,

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Speaker 5: very nice.

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Speaker 3: I just threw that.

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Speaker 5: But you're absolutely right. The biomechanics is an assessment. It

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Speaker 5: diagnoses what's wrong. But it's just like when the MRI

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Speaker 5: machine came about for the doctors. The MRI doesn't treat

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Speaker 5: people or make them better. It tells the doctors what's up.

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Speaker 5: Biomechanics is really a diagnosis for the coaches. So teams

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Speaker 5: that are going to succeed, it's not just some biomechanics

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Speaker 5: guy or gal is saying here's what's wrong with his mechanics.

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Speaker 5: It's got to be communication with the coaching staff. You know,

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Speaker 5: Joe tom ten twenty years ago, when I thirty years ago,

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Speaker 5: when I started working with the various teams, I was

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Speaker 5: amazed how some Major League teams are so well run

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Speaker 5: and some so other ones are so poorly run. And

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Speaker 5: what I mean by that is I would meet with

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Speaker 5: some teams and I would talk about the biomechanics of

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Speaker 5: some of their pitchers, and it was like I was

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Speaker 5: introducing the pitching staff to the training staff, to the

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Speaker 5: coaching staff. Some teams they work in their little silos

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Speaker 5: and they don't talk to each other. Whereas the successful

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Speaker 5: teams you are alluding to that, Joe, they have communication

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Speaker 5: where the biomechanics people are telling the coaches, the coaches

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Speaker 5: are talking to the trainers, the trainers are talking to

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Speaker 5: the front desk and the front office people. And success.

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Speaker 5: You can't look at a person as a biomechanics person

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Speaker 5: or as a medical person. Each player is a full person,

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Speaker 5: and all the different departments and the team have to

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Speaker 5: communicate and work together. And you know, Joe, the teams

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Speaker 5: that succeed are going to have the better teamwork among personnel.

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Speaker 1: I've always heard the two biggest risk factors for pictures

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Speaker 1: and their injuries are poor mechanics and fatigue, which leads

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Speaker 1: me to my next question.

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Speaker 4: It's about workload. How much is too much? We'll be

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Speaker 4: right back. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast.

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Speaker 4: We're talking with Glenn Fleisik.

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Speaker 1: He's an industry leader in pitching biomechanics, research director at

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00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:33,998
Speaker 1: the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Alabama. Pitcher workload,

435
00:23:35,078 --> 00:23:41,238
Speaker 1: it's it sounds counterintuitive, Glenn, the less pitchers pitch, the

436
00:23:41,278 --> 00:23:45,478
Speaker 1: more they're getting hurt. Last year, twenty twenty two season,

437
00:23:46,078 --> 00:23:49,198
Speaker 1: there are only three games in which a pitcher threw

438
00:23:49,238 --> 00:23:53,478
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty pitches. In twenty ten, not that

439
00:23:53,598 --> 00:23:57,318
Speaker 1: long ago, there were one hundred and thirty one one

440
00:23:57,438 --> 00:23:59,278
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty pitch games. And if you want to

441
00:23:59,278 --> 00:24:02,718
Speaker 1: go back to nineteen eighty eight, five hundred and ninety

442
00:24:02,718 --> 00:24:06,758
Speaker 1: eight one hundred twenty pitch games. So basically, in a generation,

443
00:24:06,918 --> 00:24:10,278
Speaker 1: we've gone from six hundred times a pitcher has thrown

444
00:24:10,278 --> 00:24:12,958
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty pitches to three and we've yet

445
00:24:12,998 --> 00:24:15,438
Speaker 1: to hit that number this year in the twenty twenty

446
00:24:15,478 --> 00:24:19,478
Speaker 1: three season. And then we talk about pitching rotations. It

447
00:24:19,598 --> 00:24:23,758
Speaker 1: used to be five man rotation. You pitched every fifth day, right, well,

448
00:24:23,758 --> 00:24:26,438
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, that wasn't that long ago. A little

449
00:24:26,438 --> 00:24:28,518
Speaker 1: more than half the starts were made on the fifth day.

450
00:24:29,478 --> 00:24:31,918
Speaker 1: Last year thirty nine percent.

451
00:24:32,158 --> 00:24:36,678
Speaker 4: That's it. This year twenty percent. Only twenty percent.

452
00:24:36,398 --> 00:24:38,638
Speaker 1: Of starts this year are being made on the fifth day.

453
00:24:38,718 --> 00:24:41,398
Speaker 1: It is now six days, folks. Five is short rest,

454
00:24:41,478 --> 00:24:45,238
Speaker 1: Now six is normal rest. So Glenn, we're gonna circle

455
00:24:45,318 --> 00:24:48,518
Speaker 1: back to my question, and maybe this again gets back

456
00:24:48,518 --> 00:24:52,518
Speaker 1: to Vlo. If we're limiting pitches, if we're giving pitchers

457
00:24:52,558 --> 00:24:55,318
Speaker 1: more rest, why the heck are they breaking down more?

458
00:24:55,758 --> 00:24:58,998
Speaker 5: You mentioned the word fatigued. Tom. I've done a lot

459
00:24:58,998 --> 00:25:01,438
Speaker 5: of science over the past thirty five years, and some

460
00:25:01,518 --> 00:25:04,758
Speaker 5: studies have shown this has a fifty percent effect or

461
00:25:04,758 --> 00:25:08,198
Speaker 5: one hundred percent effect. We did one study where it

462
00:25:08,238 --> 00:25:11,118
Speaker 5: was a thirty six times effect, okay, and it was

463
00:25:11,118 --> 00:25:14,038
Speaker 5: the strongest study we've ever done. We've looked at a

464
00:25:14,078 --> 00:25:17,318
Speaker 5: group of high school age baseball pictures who had never

465
00:25:17,718 --> 00:25:20,638
Speaker 5: had an arm problem versus high school age pictures who

466
00:25:20,678 --> 00:25:24,118
Speaker 5: came in for surgery, and we asked them many questions

467
00:25:24,158 --> 00:25:25,998
Speaker 5: like how old were you when you start throwing a

468
00:25:26,038 --> 00:25:28,558
Speaker 5: curve ball or this or that. But the one question

469
00:25:28,678 --> 00:25:31,958
Speaker 5: that was basically the tell tale about who ended up

470
00:25:31,998 --> 00:25:35,398
Speaker 5: having surgery versus who didn't was did you routinely keep

471
00:25:35,438 --> 00:25:38,838
Speaker 5: pitching after you were fatigued, and by a thirty six

472
00:25:38,878 --> 00:25:42,638
Speaker 5: to one odd. Essentially, if you asked someone did you

473
00:25:42,958 --> 00:25:45,838
Speaker 5: keep pitching after your fatigued and they said yes, I

474
00:25:45,838 --> 00:25:48,718
Speaker 5: would bet you thirty six dollars to one that that

475
00:25:48,838 --> 00:25:50,918
Speaker 5: guy was the one who ended up with surgery versus

476
00:25:50,998 --> 00:25:54,758
Speaker 5: the guy who said no. It was huge. So, unfortunately

477
00:25:54,998 --> 00:25:58,758
Speaker 5: for me, fatigue is not something that can be measured

478
00:25:59,038 --> 00:26:01,598
Speaker 5: very well with computers or anything like that. Fatigue is

479
00:26:01,638 --> 00:26:07,998
Speaker 5: a self feeling. So essentially, at all levels, pictures should

480
00:26:08,078 --> 00:26:11,078
Speaker 5: keep pitching when they're feeling good, but when they're fatigued,

481
00:26:11,078 --> 00:26:13,398
Speaker 5: it's time to call it a day. Okay. Part of

482
00:26:13,438 --> 00:26:16,158
Speaker 5: the problem here, though, is at the pro level, major

483
00:26:16,158 --> 00:26:19,118
Speaker 5: and minor leagues, they're shutting it down too soon. For

484
00:26:19,198 --> 00:26:22,958
Speaker 5: some guys, they're being overly cautious, as you were alluding to,

485
00:26:23,398 --> 00:26:27,398
Speaker 5: and in some cases a guy could keep going more

486
00:26:27,398 --> 00:26:29,638
Speaker 5: and build up a little more strength and endurance and

487
00:26:29,678 --> 00:26:33,958
Speaker 5: they're being te cautious. It's very hard to determine when

488
00:26:33,998 --> 00:26:36,198
Speaker 5: it's the right time to draw the line. Tom, We're

489
00:26:36,238 --> 00:26:38,598
Speaker 5: not going to get to the point where we see

490
00:26:38,718 --> 00:26:41,198
Speaker 5: a five man rotation and every other game is a

491
00:26:41,198 --> 00:26:43,758
Speaker 5: complete game. We're not going back to that, so we're

492
00:26:43,758 --> 00:26:45,358
Speaker 5: going to have to deal with the fact that this is.

493
00:26:45,318 --> 00:26:47,998
Speaker 2: Where we're at quickly. Quickly, I would say the guy's

494
00:26:47,998 --> 00:26:49,678
Speaker 2: coming out of his delivery. That's what I would look

495
00:26:49,678 --> 00:26:51,438
Speaker 2: for when he came out of his delivery. That would

496
00:26:51,438 --> 00:26:53,878
Speaker 2: be the indicator to me. There's normally a number of

497
00:26:53,918 --> 00:26:56,158
Speaker 2: pitches with the starter that should really have to look

498
00:26:56,158 --> 00:26:57,958
Speaker 2: for when things started to break down. That would be

499
00:26:58,038 --> 00:27:00,398
Speaker 2: over a period of time, but easily, like you're saying,

500
00:27:00,438 --> 00:27:02,758
Speaker 2: the arm drops, he's spinning out too soon. He's trying

501
00:27:02,798 --> 00:27:05,638
Speaker 2: to create velocity as opposed to just letting it happen.

502
00:27:05,678 --> 00:27:08,398
Speaker 2: You could see those things and those are those are

503
00:27:08,438 --> 00:27:11,238
Speaker 2: the kind of moments within the dugout that really experienced

504
00:27:11,238 --> 00:27:14,998
Speaker 2: person there can make a huge difference regarding the outcome

505
00:27:15,038 --> 00:27:17,118
Speaker 2: of the game and the future health of the player.

506
00:27:17,758 --> 00:27:21,158
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you look at the pitch timer

507
00:27:21,718 --> 00:27:25,638
Speaker 1: this season, pitchers now have less time to recover not

508
00:27:25,678 --> 00:27:29,958
Speaker 1: only between pitches, but between half innings that they pitched

509
00:27:29,998 --> 00:27:31,838
Speaker 1: because the game is moving faster.

510
00:27:32,758 --> 00:27:34,598
Speaker 4: So there's two arguments here.

511
00:27:34,638 --> 00:27:36,878
Speaker 1: It's probably going to wind up being an amalgam of

512
00:27:36,918 --> 00:27:39,758
Speaker 1: both of those. But I've heard, Hey, pitchers are going

513
00:27:39,798 --> 00:27:42,558
Speaker 1: to learn to be more efficient with their pitches and

514
00:27:42,638 --> 00:27:44,718
Speaker 1: not try to max out all the time, and not

515
00:27:44,758 --> 00:27:47,518
Speaker 1: to strike everybody out, but maybe to get that ground

516
00:27:47,518 --> 00:27:50,638
Speaker 1: ball early in account and they'll stay healthier. The other

517
00:27:50,758 --> 00:27:54,118
Speaker 1: argument is, no, they're still going to max out because

518
00:27:54,158 --> 00:27:56,718
Speaker 1: the game is predicated on power, but they're going to

519
00:27:56,718 --> 00:28:00,998
Speaker 1: have so less time between maxing out that they'll become

520
00:28:01,038 --> 00:28:02,718
Speaker 1: more susceptible to injuries.

521
00:28:03,198 --> 00:28:06,438
Speaker 5: Well, first, well, the answer is probably both, Tom. You know,

522
00:28:06,678 --> 00:28:10,238
Speaker 5: they're different, people have different reactions. But as a fan,

523
00:28:10,518 --> 00:28:12,318
Speaker 5: first of all, I want to say I love everything

524
00:28:12,678 --> 00:28:15,278
Speaker 5: Major League Baseball is doing. I love watching a Fuicker

525
00:28:15,358 --> 00:28:17,998
Speaker 5: game joke saying he could watch more games any of us.

526
00:28:18,438 --> 00:28:20,838
Speaker 5: The games are more entertained to watch for all these

527
00:28:20,878 --> 00:28:26,238
Speaker 5: different reasons, including the pitch clock timer. I want to

528
00:28:26,278 --> 00:28:28,558
Speaker 5: point out that Major League Baseball. You know, I'm an

529
00:28:28,598 --> 00:28:31,838
Speaker 5: advisor for Major League Baseball and on several committees, but

530
00:28:32,078 --> 00:28:34,798
Speaker 5: they didn't install any of these things willy nilly. These

531
00:28:34,798 --> 00:28:38,318
Speaker 5: were all run through the minor leagues first, and then

532
00:28:38,358 --> 00:28:40,638
Speaker 5: also some of them through the Atlantic Coast League. So

533
00:28:40,998 --> 00:28:44,198
Speaker 5: there's been a track record that Major League Baseball and

534
00:28:44,238 --> 00:28:47,678
Speaker 5: the committees have looked at before introducing it this year.

535
00:28:48,118 --> 00:28:52,838
Speaker 5: But I'm optimistic that the pitch clock timer is not

536
00:28:52,958 --> 00:28:57,318
Speaker 5: going to correlate to a change in there or an

537
00:28:57,318 --> 00:29:00,038
Speaker 5: increase in the risk of injury. So as far as

538
00:29:00,038 --> 00:29:01,998
Speaker 5: the safety, I think that's the number one concern for

539
00:29:02,118 --> 00:29:04,718
Speaker 5: Major League Baseball. One of the top concerns is that

540
00:29:04,758 --> 00:29:08,678
Speaker 5: the change doesn't lead to more injuries. We're going to

541
00:29:08,718 --> 00:29:11,238
Speaker 5: be tracking that. Major League Baseball's going to be tracking that,

542
00:29:11,918 --> 00:29:13,478
Speaker 5: and I'm optimistic about that.

543
00:29:13,998 --> 00:29:15,878
Speaker 2: It's just gonna be a different method of training, right,

544
00:29:15,878 --> 00:29:17,798
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're gonna if you have to pitch

545
00:29:17,958 --> 00:29:22,238
Speaker 2: or throw the ball more rapidly in your training sessions,

546
00:29:22,238 --> 00:29:25,838
Speaker 2: whether it's your side pieces in the bullpen, whether it's

547
00:29:25,958 --> 00:29:28,958
Speaker 2: off season, how you prep. And then furthermore, I still

548
00:29:29,078 --> 00:29:31,758
Speaker 2: a big believe that you already mentioned the minor league situation.

549
00:29:31,878 --> 00:29:33,998
Speaker 2: Do it in the minor leagues. Man, Let these guys throw.

550
00:29:34,518 --> 00:29:36,718
Speaker 2: I mean the way they baby them coming up in

551
00:29:36,758 --> 00:29:38,918
Speaker 2: the minor leagues these days. I mean, Tobby did some

552
00:29:38,958 --> 00:29:41,838
Speaker 2: research when I managed an ape and rookie ball I

553
00:29:41,958 --> 00:29:44,118
Speaker 2: let Bobby Kipper throw like one hundred and forty pitches

554
00:29:44,158 --> 00:29:47,478
Speaker 2: one day. Apparently I don't remember that, and he survived.

555
00:29:47,478 --> 00:29:49,278
Speaker 2: He pitched in the big leagues very well. See, I'm

556
00:29:49,278 --> 00:29:51,278
Speaker 2: always I was always a big believer in watching a

557
00:29:51,318 --> 00:29:54,238
Speaker 2: young man pitch, like you were saying earlier, If he's

558
00:29:54,238 --> 00:29:57,518
Speaker 2: staying in his delivery and he's not struggling, and you

559
00:29:57,518 --> 00:29:59,198
Speaker 2: you could see from the side whether or not he's

560
00:29:59,198 --> 00:30:01,838
Speaker 2: trying to exude more, exert more effort, let him go,

561
00:30:02,158 --> 00:30:05,398
Speaker 2: let him go. I mean, one stretched. There's a difficult

562
00:30:05,438 --> 00:30:07,758
Speaker 2: time going back to its original form. You teacher, permit

563
00:30:07,918 --> 00:30:11,918
Speaker 2: kids to do more as they're growing up again with

564
00:30:12,158 --> 00:30:14,838
Speaker 2: observation and not letting them go to the point where

565
00:30:14,838 --> 00:30:16,798
Speaker 2: you could you could actually see this is not working.

566
00:30:16,798 --> 00:30:18,958
Speaker 2: He's coming out of his livery et cetera. Let him go,

567
00:30:19,158 --> 00:30:21,118
Speaker 2: let him go, Let let his mind be stretched, let

568
00:30:21,198 --> 00:30:24,198
Speaker 2: his body be stretched. And I think if we did

569
00:30:24,238 --> 00:30:27,518
Speaker 2: that more there, I think eventually it's my opinion that

570
00:30:27,518 --> 00:30:29,438
Speaker 2: you're going to see lessonre You're going to see guys

571
00:30:29,878 --> 00:30:32,398
Speaker 2: getting into the sixth and the seventh anymore consistently. You're

572
00:30:32,438 --> 00:30:35,518
Speaker 2: going to put less emphasis on bullpen arms, which means

573
00:30:35,558 --> 00:30:38,438
Speaker 2: less throwing, which means hopefully longer careers for these guys.

574
00:30:38,438 --> 00:30:40,998
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all everything about this game is interconnected.

575
00:30:41,118 --> 00:30:44,638
Speaker 2: Everything about the games interconnected, and nobody even talks about that.

576
00:30:44,798 --> 00:30:46,878
Speaker 2: I mean, from one inning to the next, from one

577
00:30:46,958 --> 00:30:50,678
Speaker 2: pitch of the next, from one strategical moment to the next, everything,

578
00:30:50,958 --> 00:30:53,838
Speaker 2: number of bouts on the scoreboard, which ways, the wind blowing,

579
00:30:53,918 --> 00:30:58,078
Speaker 2: everything matters. So I'd love to see the mind leagues

580
00:30:58,118 --> 00:31:01,198
Speaker 2: remain the Petri dish. Let it be that, but let

581
00:31:01,198 --> 00:31:04,918
Speaker 2: these guys go, and let's permit young players to become

582
00:31:04,998 --> 00:31:08,558
Speaker 2: great and find more greatness evolving on the major league

583
00:31:08,558 --> 00:31:10,438
Speaker 2: feel because these guys have learned how to do it

584
00:31:10,638 --> 00:31:11,638
Speaker 2: on the minor league level.

585
00:31:12,358 --> 00:31:14,878
Speaker 1: Glenn, Before we let you go, I have to drill

586
00:31:14,958 --> 00:31:18,238
Speaker 1: down even farther now to the amateur level, because unfortunately,

587
00:31:18,358 --> 00:31:21,358
Speaker 1: I'm sure you and especially doctor Andrews have seen far

588
00:31:21,438 --> 00:31:26,638
Speaker 1: too many youngsters needing some sort of surgery or procedure

589
00:31:26,758 --> 00:31:30,918
Speaker 1: to recover from pitching injuries. And you know, I can

590
00:31:30,998 --> 00:31:33,998
Speaker 1: see on the amateur level some of the training methods

591
00:31:34,038 --> 00:31:38,518
Speaker 1: that professional fully grown men are deploying to gain velocity

592
00:31:38,838 --> 00:31:42,518
Speaker 1: are being adopted with kids whose growth plates are still open.

593
00:31:42,558 --> 00:31:46,038
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, you know, throwing weighted balls and long

594
00:31:46,118 --> 00:31:49,278
Speaker 1: tossing and some of these things. And I've always thought

595
00:31:49,318 --> 00:31:52,158
Speaker 1: that if you were a young player and you were

596
00:31:52,198 --> 00:31:55,078
Speaker 1: a pitcher I'm talking about you know, a teenager, and

597
00:31:55,118 --> 00:31:58,478
Speaker 1: you are blessed with velocity, it's also partly a curse

598
00:31:58,798 --> 00:32:01,358
Speaker 1: because your coaches, because most of these kids are playing

599
00:32:01,358 --> 00:32:04,278
Speaker 1: on multiple teams, are going to take advantage that you

600
00:32:04,318 --> 00:32:06,998
Speaker 1: can throw harder at an early age than most people.

601
00:32:07,758 --> 00:32:11,598
Speaker 1: So in general, what would your advice be to all

602
00:32:11,638 --> 00:32:15,038
Speaker 1: the parents who have pitchers, whether they're going to be.

603
00:32:15,038 --> 00:32:16,038
Speaker 4: Professionals or not.

604
00:32:16,278 --> 00:32:18,838
Speaker 1: And obviously at that age they all have dreams of

605
00:32:18,878 --> 00:32:21,478
Speaker 1: someday maybe being a professional pitcher. But we talk a

606
00:32:21,478 --> 00:32:25,118
Speaker 1: lot about workloads and exercise, and what would your advice

607
00:32:25,198 --> 00:32:28,358
Speaker 1: be to have someone enjoy the game and be as

608
00:32:28,438 --> 00:32:29,398
Speaker 1: healthy as possible.

609
00:32:30,118 --> 00:32:32,078
Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that, Tom. You know, we've done a

610
00:32:32,078 --> 00:32:34,358
Speaker 5: lot of work on this. The first thing I'd point

611
00:32:34,438 --> 00:32:36,798
Speaker 5: people to is a website that we developed with Major

612
00:32:36,838 --> 00:32:41,518
Speaker 5: League Baseball and USA Baseball called pitchsmart dot Org. We

613
00:32:41,598 --> 00:32:45,078
Speaker 5: developed this several years ago and this has recommended pitch

614
00:32:45,118 --> 00:32:48,838
Speaker 5: count limits. Another thing is on Instagram. You can follow

615
00:32:48,918 --> 00:32:52,758
Speaker 5: me on as the Biomechanical Man, and we're putting a

616
00:32:52,758 --> 00:32:55,958
Speaker 5: lot of information there out for parents and everything and kids.

617
00:32:56,198 --> 00:32:59,158
Speaker 5: But on pitchsmart dot org we have pitch count limits

618
00:32:59,198 --> 00:33:05,438
Speaker 5: per game and per season recommended. The difference is today's

619
00:33:05,958 --> 00:33:08,518
Speaker 5: pitcher who's good, we'll play year round. They'll be on

620
00:33:08,558 --> 00:33:11,798
Speaker 5: their high school team and their travel team and things

621
00:33:11,798 --> 00:33:15,358
Speaker 5: like that, things that were never done. Major leaguers typically

622
00:33:15,358 --> 00:33:18,118
Speaker 5: do not pitch in competition twelve months a year, But

623
00:33:18,158 --> 00:33:20,678
Speaker 5: we have kids down here in Alabama or wherever who

624
00:33:20,758 --> 00:33:24,918
Speaker 5: are on all these teams. So my recommendation would be

625
00:33:24,918 --> 00:33:27,038
Speaker 5: like at pitchsmart dot org, this is made by a

626
00:33:27,038 --> 00:33:31,478
Speaker 5: lot of smart people, but also more is not always better.

627
00:33:31,718 --> 00:33:34,238
Speaker 5: Throwing one quick more thing about weighted balls, Tommy, you

628
00:33:34,238 --> 00:33:36,798
Speaker 5: mentioned we've done a bunch of research on this as well.

629
00:33:37,358 --> 00:33:41,278
Speaker 5: Weighted balls. You can't deny that they work. That would

630
00:33:41,278 --> 00:33:44,798
Speaker 5: be like years ago denying this. Steroids do make people stronger,

631
00:33:45,038 --> 00:33:47,678
Speaker 5: but weighted balls do work. But they do have a cost.

632
00:33:47,758 --> 00:33:52,078
Speaker 5: And weighted balls do help many people get more velocity,

633
00:33:52,438 --> 00:33:56,038
Speaker 5: but it increases the risk of shoulder in dury, in

634
00:33:56,078 --> 00:33:59,558
Speaker 5: particular if you ramp it up too quickly. So our

635
00:33:59,638 --> 00:34:02,558
Speaker 5: recommendation for weighted balls is if you're at the professional

636
00:34:02,598 --> 00:34:05,718
Speaker 5: level or a collegiate level, it makes sense to sometimes

637
00:34:06,078 --> 00:34:08,678
Speaker 5: incorporate that in your program. We do not think that

638
00:34:08,918 --> 00:34:13,478
Speaker 5: any purpose for kids who are fifteen or younger to

639
00:34:13,558 --> 00:34:15,758
Speaker 5: use weighted balls. They got other things to work on,

640
00:34:16,118 --> 00:34:19,358
Speaker 5: such as strength and conditioning or proper mechanics. But weighted

641
00:34:19,398 --> 00:34:22,038
Speaker 5: balls do have place for the adults as part of

642
00:34:22,038 --> 00:34:23,038
Speaker 5: the program.

643
00:34:23,598 --> 00:34:24,958
Speaker 4: Very interesting, Glenn.

644
00:34:25,518 --> 00:34:28,438
Speaker 1: Here's another question that's not related to pitching, or maybe

645
00:34:28,478 --> 00:34:30,758
Speaker 1: it is. Lately we spend a lot of time talking

646
00:34:30,758 --> 00:34:33,518
Speaker 1: about pitching, and we could spend an entire week on it,

647
00:34:33,558 --> 00:34:38,558
Speaker 1: I'm sure, But the oblique injuries, and my goodness, you

648
00:34:38,638 --> 00:34:41,558
Speaker 1: hear about them all the time. When Joe was playing

649
00:34:41,598 --> 00:34:44,958
Speaker 1: in the minor leagues, guys didn't have obliques. Now these

650
00:34:44,998 --> 00:34:47,238
Speaker 1: guys are training twelve months out of the year. They

651
00:34:47,278 --> 00:34:51,038
Speaker 1: have nutritionists, they have personal trainers, they have speed coaches,

652
00:34:51,078 --> 00:34:53,278
Speaker 1: they have performance and hands and cooking. I mean, what

653
00:34:53,478 --> 00:34:55,558
Speaker 1: is going on with the oblique Why do we keep

654
00:34:55,558 --> 00:34:56,798
Speaker 1: hearing about that injury?

655
00:34:57,438 --> 00:35:02,318
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think the famous scientist David Wells put it well.

656
00:35:02,318 --> 00:35:05,598
Speaker 5: Why he didn't get injuries like this. You can't pull fat.

657
00:35:05,878 --> 00:35:09,158
Speaker 5: You don't get injuries pulling your fat. So today's guys

658
00:35:09,198 --> 00:35:13,158
Speaker 5: are just so ripped and such low fat that they

659
00:35:13,198 --> 00:35:16,918
Speaker 5: can really get maximum performance, but it's really demanding. Obliques

660
00:35:16,958 --> 00:35:19,598
Speaker 5: are a totally different animal than the shoulder elbow injuries.

661
00:35:19,638 --> 00:35:22,638
Speaker 5: Those are ligaments and tendons, and those are serious. You

662
00:35:22,678 --> 00:35:24,718
Speaker 5: could be out for a year or mess up your career.

663
00:35:25,198 --> 00:35:28,718
Speaker 5: The oblaque is muscles. It's not really a tendon or ligament,

664
00:35:29,078 --> 00:35:31,798
Speaker 5: and it's a serious injury, but you'll be out weeks

665
00:35:31,918 --> 00:35:35,838
Speaker 5: or perhaps months, but not years. Pictures get it from

666
00:35:36,198 --> 00:35:40,718
Speaker 5: rotating their hips below their shoulders and getting that trunk rotation.

667
00:35:41,558 --> 00:35:45,278
Speaker 5: It's stretching out your obliques. The hitters get it also

668
00:35:45,278 --> 00:35:47,238
Speaker 5: from rotating the trunk, but what they get it is

669
00:35:47,798 --> 00:35:52,478
Speaker 5: after the time of this contact, they over rotate their

670
00:35:52,838 --> 00:35:56,078
Speaker 5: shoulders above their hips. But basically, both the pictures and

671
00:35:56,158 --> 00:36:00,958
Speaker 5: hitters stress your obliques by rotating your trunk your hips

672
00:36:01,038 --> 00:36:07,078
Speaker 5: compared to your shoulders. And the answer is, I don't

673
00:36:07,118 --> 00:36:09,198
Speaker 5: know what the answer is. It has to do with

674
00:36:09,678 --> 00:36:13,638
Speaker 5: the muscles are just so strong, they're overloading themselves. Maybe

675
00:36:14,278 --> 00:36:15,718
Speaker 5: they're too strong in some cases.

676
00:36:15,958 --> 00:36:18,918
Speaker 2: Interesting, And I'm honestly god man, I you know, I

677
00:36:18,998 --> 00:36:21,118
Speaker 2: haven't spoke with you in a bit, but that's really

678
00:36:21,118 --> 00:36:23,158
Speaker 2: good stuff. I love that advice. Not a little bit

679
00:36:23,238 --> 00:36:25,838
Speaker 2: a lot, and brother, I could work with you any

680
00:36:25,918 --> 00:36:27,878
Speaker 2: day of the week. I've loved everything you've said today.

681
00:36:27,878 --> 00:36:32,238
Speaker 2: It's a tremendous balance. You know. You're not just relying

682
00:36:32,398 --> 00:36:35,318
Speaker 2: heavy sighted on one thing or another. You understand both

683
00:36:35,358 --> 00:36:36,958
Speaker 2: sides of the coin. I think it's great and it's

684
00:36:36,998 --> 00:36:38,158
Speaker 2: been great talking with you today.

685
00:36:38,478 --> 00:36:40,478
Speaker 1: We have one more job for you before we let

686
00:36:40,518 --> 00:36:43,798
Speaker 1: you go, Glenn. We call this a reading from the

687
00:36:43,798 --> 00:36:48,598
Speaker 1: Book of Joe. We ask all our guests to pick

688
00:36:48,598 --> 00:36:51,078
Speaker 1: a number between one and three hundred and sixty eight.

689
00:36:51,558 --> 00:36:53,478
Speaker 1: Why one and three sixty eight.

690
00:36:53,678 --> 00:36:55,798
Speaker 4: That's how many pages there are in the Book of Joe.

691
00:36:55,838 --> 00:36:58,318
Speaker 1: And we like to think no matter what number you pick,

692
00:36:58,518 --> 00:37:00,598
Speaker 1: no matter what page we land on, we're going to

693
00:37:00,638 --> 00:37:05,598
Speaker 1: find something interesting. So it's your call, doctor, Glenn Fwistig.

694
00:37:05,718 --> 00:37:07,158
Speaker 1: You can pick a number.

695
00:37:07,678 --> 00:37:09,878
Speaker 5: Okay, Well I'm going to go with it. I'm going

696
00:37:09,958 --> 00:37:11,878
Speaker 5: to go with the number of games in a season.

697
00:37:11,878 --> 00:37:13,398
Speaker 5: I'm going to go with one hundred and sixty two.

698
00:37:13,678 --> 00:37:14,158
Speaker 4: Interesting.

699
00:37:14,238 --> 00:37:16,158
Speaker 1: You know, I think you're the first guest, believe it

700
00:37:16,238 --> 00:37:18,518
Speaker 1: or not, that picked a three digit number.

701
00:37:18,718 --> 00:37:19,718
Speaker 4: So thank you for that.

702
00:37:20,038 --> 00:37:21,958
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's right.

703
00:37:23,118 --> 00:37:24,118
Speaker 4: What's sixty two?

704
00:37:25,638 --> 00:37:29,118
Speaker 1: This is uh when Joe Madden takes over the Tampa

705
00:37:29,118 --> 00:37:30,558
Speaker 1: Bay Devil Rays.

706
00:37:30,958 --> 00:37:34,038
Speaker 4: Devil Rays Baby, Yes, his first camp.

707
00:37:34,878 --> 00:37:38,638
Speaker 1: This is about getting his staff together and trying to

708
00:37:38,718 --> 00:37:39,438
Speaker 1: change culture.

709
00:37:39,518 --> 00:37:41,958
Speaker 4: You hear that term a lot right, changing the culture.

710
00:37:42,838 --> 00:37:45,398
Speaker 1: To help instill his new attitude, Madden also brought to

711
00:37:45,478 --> 00:37:48,398
Speaker 1: camp as a special instructor. Dave Martinez, who had played

712
00:37:48,398 --> 00:37:50,558
Speaker 1: for the Devil Rays in a sixty to year playing career,

713
00:37:50,718 --> 00:37:52,078
Speaker 1: was known as a clubhouse leader.

714
00:37:52,278 --> 00:37:54,198
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I got to go back here. I must

715
00:37:54,238 --> 00:37:55,038
Speaker 4: have got the wrong one.

716
00:37:55,478 --> 00:37:57,078
Speaker 2: It's like being on a church when the guy when

717
00:37:57,118 --> 00:38:01,038
Speaker 2: the priestcoes, is the wrong epistle or the gospel man backtracks.

718
00:38:01,478 --> 00:38:02,558
Speaker 5: It is the Book of Joe.

719
00:38:02,718 --> 00:38:04,758
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, don't kidd.

720
00:38:06,798 --> 00:38:09,678
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is your first workout, Joe. I'm sorry.

721
00:38:10,078 --> 00:38:12,358
Speaker 3: Okay, you got a father, Tom.

722
00:38:12,758 --> 00:38:15,398
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, here we go.

723
00:38:16,198 --> 00:38:18,198
Speaker 1: It was clear from day one that the Devil Rays

724
00:38:18,278 --> 00:38:21,838
Speaker 1: under Medden would operate differently. Medden held a thirty minute

725
00:38:21,918 --> 00:38:26,678
Speaker 1: drill with pitchers and catchers without a baseball. The pitchers,

726
00:38:26,678 --> 00:38:29,278
Speaker 1: most of them were young, stood across from the catchers

727
00:38:29,278 --> 00:38:31,278
Speaker 1: and explain how they liked them to set up for

728
00:38:31,318 --> 00:38:35,758
Speaker 1: each pitch. Catchers asked questions of pitchers about their stuff

729
00:38:36,118 --> 00:38:37,318
Speaker 1: and how they like to use it.

730
00:38:38,278 --> 00:38:39,518
Speaker 4: When a pitcher walks.

731
00:38:39,198 --> 00:38:42,558
Speaker 1: Out there, I want him to know every catcher, Madden explained,

732
00:38:42,918 --> 00:38:45,278
Speaker 1: there's no way we're going to win games unless our

733
00:38:45,318 --> 00:38:48,358
Speaker 1: pitching does a good job, and catching is an extension

734
00:38:48,438 --> 00:38:52,078
Speaker 1: of the job. Let's see if it works. Madden loved

735
00:38:52,078 --> 00:38:55,278
Speaker 1: the vibe and the first workout. It's beautiful, it's amazing.

736
00:38:55,398 --> 00:38:58,038
Speaker 1: There's a lot of enthusiasm among the coaching staff. Also,

737
00:38:58,198 --> 00:39:02,118
Speaker 1: everybody's excited about it big time. The players have been fantastic.

738
00:39:02,238 --> 00:39:05,038
Speaker 1: They make it fun, they make it easy. It's all

739
00:39:05,078 --> 00:39:08,638
Speaker 1: about the players. Joe, correct me if I'm wrong. But

740
00:39:09,278 --> 00:39:13,958
Speaker 1: it actually took a couple of years correct really change culture.

741
00:39:14,638 --> 00:39:17,118
Speaker 2: Yeah, that first year was tough, man, that was real tough.

742
00:39:17,518 --> 00:39:19,798
Speaker 2: You're trying to extract a lot of what had really

743
00:39:19,838 --> 00:39:23,438
Speaker 2: been embedded and a lot of things you didn't necessarily like,

744
00:39:23,558 --> 00:39:25,958
Speaker 2: right down to the way the guys reacted to the day,

745
00:39:26,038 --> 00:39:28,758
Speaker 2: their work ethic, what they considered important, what they did

746
00:39:28,798 --> 00:39:32,118
Speaker 2: not coaches. I mean, at that time, I really was

747
00:39:32,118 --> 00:39:33,958
Speaker 2: really obvious to me that there was a lot of

748
00:39:35,598 --> 00:39:37,998
Speaker 2: guys wanting to climb over other guys backs in regards

749
00:39:37,998 --> 00:39:40,038
Speaker 2: to the coachings from the minor leagues of the big leagues.

750
00:39:40,038 --> 00:39:41,678
Speaker 2: There wasn't a lot of unity, and we just talked

751
00:39:41,678 --> 00:39:45,838
Speaker 2: about it was two completely different organizations. So you have

752
00:39:45,918 --> 00:39:49,478
Speaker 2: to clean all that up, you do, and really, if

753
00:39:49,518 --> 00:39:51,798
Speaker 2: you don't clean it up, if you don't get rid

754
00:39:51,878 --> 00:39:53,878
Speaker 2: of the things that you don't think are right, eventually

755
00:39:53,918 --> 00:39:56,038
Speaker 2: you're going to be gone very quickly, and so are

756
00:39:56,558 --> 00:39:59,638
Speaker 2: secretaries and other people within the administration that have to

757
00:39:59,718 --> 00:40:02,958
Speaker 2: leave because you did not take care of your job

758
00:40:03,078 --> 00:40:05,158
Speaker 2: on the field with that particular group or just one

759
00:40:05,238 --> 00:40:08,278
Speaker 2: or two guys. I'm serious. I really felt that way.

760
00:40:08,558 --> 00:40:11,758
Speaker 2: You cannot let a cancer spread ever, and if you

761
00:40:11,838 --> 00:40:13,838
Speaker 2: permit that, it's your own fault. So that's how I

762
00:40:13,838 --> 00:40:15,958
Speaker 2: looked at it. I looked at it that you had

763
00:40:15,958 --> 00:40:19,438
Speaker 2: to extricate that which was going to test the size

764
00:40:19,438 --> 00:40:23,238
Speaker 2: the work against you. Surely, it's true, man, with players,

765
00:40:23,278 --> 00:40:25,438
Speaker 2: you cannot let one guy bring the whole group down.

766
00:40:25,998 --> 00:40:29,118
Speaker 2: And eventually we cleared that out, and by the middle

767
00:40:29,158 --> 00:40:31,918
Speaker 2: of almost the end of the next season, Danny Wheelers

768
00:40:31,958 --> 00:40:35,038
Speaker 2: showing up and they had to loose Ty Wiggington for

769
00:40:35,158 --> 00:40:37,518
Speaker 2: who I love. But Danny shows up and all of

770
00:40:37,558 --> 00:40:39,838
Speaker 2: a sudden, the bullpen gets better, we start winning games

771
00:40:39,838 --> 00:40:42,278
Speaker 2: are supposed to and by the end of that year

772
00:40:42,478 --> 00:40:44,438
Speaker 2: everything started to flip. So it took a year and

773
00:40:44,478 --> 00:40:48,358
Speaker 2: a half easily before you started flipping culture in a

774
00:40:48,398 --> 00:40:49,078
Speaker 2: positive way.

775
00:40:49,878 --> 00:40:52,918
Speaker 1: Joe, back then, were you concerned much about pitch counts

776
00:40:52,958 --> 00:40:55,718
Speaker 1: on a let's say a rigid basis.

777
00:40:56,198 --> 00:40:59,638
Speaker 2: No, like I remember with the Cavs Scottie Kasmer. I remember,

778
00:41:00,078 --> 00:41:05,758
Speaker 2: we're pitching and we're playing in Boston, and he, you know,

779
00:41:05,798 --> 00:41:07,918
Speaker 2: Scotty threw a lot of pitches to get through five innings,

780
00:41:07,918 --> 00:41:09,598
Speaker 2: and he just he didn't have that great commandity, had

781
00:41:09,598 --> 00:41:10,358
Speaker 2: a great arm.

782
00:41:10,638 --> 00:41:12,478
Speaker 3: But it was I thought there was a seminal moment

783
00:41:12,478 --> 00:41:13,078
Speaker 3: for him and for us.

784
00:41:13,078 --> 00:41:14,598
Speaker 2: So I walked out to the mound and he was

785
00:41:14,638 --> 00:41:16,918
Speaker 2: in this hundreds, low hundreds, I think about the fifth inning,

786
00:41:17,438 --> 00:41:20,118
Speaker 2: four plus, and I I got close up to him,

787
00:41:20,118 --> 00:41:22,758
Speaker 2: and I got my mouth towards this year, and I said, listen,

788
00:41:23,198 --> 00:41:25,198
Speaker 2: we're gonna be faced with this kind of situation in

789
00:41:25,198 --> 00:41:26,838
Speaker 2: a couple of years. The next couple of years, we're

790
00:41:26,838 --> 00:41:28,158
Speaker 2: gonna have to win big game. It's gonna have to

791
00:41:28,198 --> 00:41:30,598
Speaker 2: win big games in Boston, and this is something you

792
00:41:30,638 --> 00:41:32,958
Speaker 2: have to learn how to do for yourself. It's exactly

793
00:41:32,998 --> 00:41:34,558
Speaker 2: what I told him, and I walked away and he

794
00:41:34,598 --> 00:41:37,518
Speaker 2: got out of the inning. But I remember that specifically,

795
00:41:37,518 --> 00:41:40,158
Speaker 2: so I wasn't Andrew used to give me some crap

796
00:41:40,198 --> 00:41:42,518
Speaker 2: with shields, I mean shields. He always wanted to pitch

797
00:41:42,638 --> 00:41:45,598
Speaker 2: deeper longer. I thought his waterloo was right about one

798
00:41:45,638 --> 00:41:47,678
Speaker 2: hundred and five hundred and eight pitches. Weirdly that was

799
00:41:47,718 --> 00:41:50,198
Speaker 2: the number. But once he got shields, E that won

800
00:41:50,278 --> 00:41:52,758
Speaker 2: ten and then more than that he started finishing games.

801
00:41:53,038 --> 00:41:57,478
Speaker 3: He turned into a beast. He did. And I'm Jake Arietta.

802
00:41:57,518 --> 00:41:58,478
Speaker 3: We tied. We have it in the book.

803
00:41:58,478 --> 00:42:00,998
Speaker 2: When you let Jacob one twenty in Minnesota, even though

804
00:42:00,998 --> 00:42:04,278
Speaker 2: you're leading seven or eight nothing, he turned into a beast.

805
00:42:04,678 --> 00:42:10,198
Speaker 2: You cannot underestimate by permitting these players talking pictures right now,

806
00:42:10,278 --> 00:42:12,838
Speaker 2: to conclude a game, to walk off the field after nine,

807
00:42:13,038 --> 00:42:15,878
Speaker 2: shake everybody's hands, walk in and sit down, have a beer.

808
00:42:16,118 --> 00:42:19,318
Speaker 2: It changes them. It absolutely changes them. And that's what

809
00:42:19,358 --> 00:42:20,918
Speaker 2: I was trying to do with Scotty that one day

810
00:42:20,918 --> 00:42:21,438
Speaker 2: in Boston.

811
00:42:22,118 --> 00:42:25,278
Speaker 1: Cool stuff, Cool stuff, Glenn. We thank you so much.

812
00:42:25,358 --> 00:42:29,758
Speaker 1: This has been fascinating. It's obviously ongoing work and an

813
00:42:29,798 --> 00:42:32,798
Speaker 1: ongoing discussion, and thanks so much for contributing to it.

814
00:42:33,118 --> 00:42:35,038
Speaker 5: My pleasure were always great talking to you guys.

815
00:42:35,318 --> 00:42:37,678
Speaker 3: Great job, brother, Thank you. I appreciate it.

816
00:42:37,918 --> 00:42:40,998
Speaker 4: Well, Joe. That was a fascinating discussion with Glenn Flisig.

817
00:42:41,318 --> 00:42:42,318
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed it.

818
00:42:42,678 --> 00:42:45,398
Speaker 3: Yeah, listen, I knew it to expect, but I didn't

819
00:42:45,438 --> 00:42:46,198
Speaker 3: know what to expect.

820
00:42:46,758 --> 00:42:49,998
Speaker 2: I mean, I love the way he balances the technological

821
00:42:50,038 --> 00:42:52,518
Speaker 2: world with the human element. I thought that was great.

822
00:42:52,958 --> 00:42:55,518
Speaker 2: He has a for my money, has got a great

823
00:42:55,558 --> 00:43:00,598
Speaker 2: perspective on how to utilize that information, how to disseminate it,

824
00:43:00,598 --> 00:43:03,158
Speaker 2: how to teach you. I was really impressed with that.

825
00:43:03,238 --> 00:43:05,598
Speaker 2: I know he and I that worked briefly together with

826
00:43:05,678 --> 00:43:09,758
Speaker 2: the Rays years ago. But again I was really impressed

827
00:43:09,798 --> 00:43:12,358
Speaker 2: because that's the method I think that needs to be

828
00:43:12,398 --> 00:43:16,038
Speaker 2: employed again. And the word is balance, where you understand

829
00:43:16,078 --> 00:43:19,878
Speaker 2: the difference between end game where things are happening at

830
00:43:19,958 --> 00:43:22,158
Speaker 2: warp speed and you have to make adjustments quickly, as

831
00:43:22,158 --> 00:43:26,598
Speaker 2: opposed to pouring over information or data in a slower setting,

832
00:43:27,998 --> 00:43:30,638
Speaker 2: slowing it down obviously, and then coming back with other

833
00:43:30,678 --> 00:43:33,038
Speaker 2: conclusions that you really can't see with the naked eye.

834
00:43:33,358 --> 00:43:34,998
Speaker 2: Love that love the way puts it together.

835
00:43:35,358 --> 00:43:38,798
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I loved his let's face an outsider's perspective

836
00:43:38,878 --> 00:43:43,038
Speaker 1: on organizations and how these successful ones don't have those

837
00:43:43,078 --> 00:43:44,198
Speaker 1: separate silos.

838
00:43:44,438 --> 00:43:46,318
Speaker 4: It's a seamless operation.

839
00:43:46,918 --> 00:43:49,638
Speaker 2: That was interesting, right. I mean, that's that observation. I mean,

840
00:43:49,678 --> 00:43:51,638
Speaker 2: the things you and I have talked about in the past.

841
00:43:51,918 --> 00:43:53,958
Speaker 2: I think we've mentioned in the Book of Joe also,

842
00:43:54,598 --> 00:43:56,798
Speaker 2: it's been obvious. I mean as a young man growing

843
00:43:56,838 --> 00:44:00,278
Speaker 2: up in the Angel organization back in the eighties, it

844
00:44:00,318 --> 00:44:02,918
Speaker 2: was two distinct organizations between the big leagues and the

845
00:44:02,958 --> 00:44:07,478
Speaker 2: minor leagues. Was very difficult to get us on the

846
00:44:07,518 --> 00:44:09,358
Speaker 2: same page with the major league team because it was

847
00:44:09,398 --> 00:44:12,358
Speaker 2: always changing. When at that time, the autonomous manager would

848
00:44:12,358 --> 00:44:15,678
Speaker 2: come in, he would change everything you did everything, man,

849
00:44:16,118 --> 00:44:18,358
Speaker 2: and I was running the minor league system. I had

850
00:44:18,358 --> 00:44:21,638
Speaker 2: to constantly adapt to whatever the manager wanted to do.

851
00:44:22,718 --> 00:44:24,958
Speaker 2: And they really didn't show a strong interest in what

852
00:44:24,998 --> 00:44:27,638
Speaker 2: we were doing. And that's okay, I get it. But

853
00:44:27,878 --> 00:44:30,438
Speaker 2: I think you look at the Dodgers for a hundred years,

854
00:44:30,438 --> 00:44:32,838
Speaker 2: you look at the Cardinals for one hundred years, and

855
00:44:32,918 --> 00:44:36,238
Speaker 2: they've been pretty successful. And mister Ricky back in the

856
00:44:36,318 --> 00:44:41,398
Speaker 2: day really influencing both organizations. They really were very strong

857
00:44:41,598 --> 00:44:44,638
Speaker 2: still are about being one, and I think that's a

858
00:44:44,678 --> 00:44:47,318
Speaker 2: big reason why they've been so successful for so many years.

859
00:44:47,718 --> 00:44:49,798
Speaker 1: Absolutely, well, it was a lot of fun. You got

860
00:44:49,838 --> 00:44:51,238
Speaker 1: something to take us out now, Joe.

861
00:44:51,438 --> 00:44:52,398
Speaker 3: Yeah.

862
00:44:52,798 --> 00:44:56,678
Speaker 2: Johann Wolfgang von Gerta and I came into this the

863
00:44:56,758 --> 00:44:59,838
Speaker 2: other day. I was what was that reading of it?

864
00:44:59,918 --> 00:45:03,118
Speaker 2: Some prominent Italian said this, So I had to bring

865
00:45:03,158 --> 00:45:05,518
Speaker 2: it back into whatever you can do or dream you

866
00:45:05,518 --> 00:45:08,998
Speaker 2: can Whatever you can do or dream, you can't begin it.

867
00:45:09,118 --> 00:45:13,878
Speaker 2: Boldness has genius power and magic in it. And my

868
00:45:14,038 --> 00:45:17,078
Speaker 2: thing was always fortune favorites the bold. I just read

869
00:45:17,118 --> 00:45:20,118
Speaker 2: that yesterday the day before somebody had said that years ago.

870
00:45:20,478 --> 00:45:22,758
Speaker 2: Thought that was pretty cool because I just kind of

871
00:45:22,798 --> 00:45:24,918
Speaker 2: like extemporaneously made it up a couple of years ago.

872
00:45:24,918 --> 00:45:27,638
Speaker 2: But whatever you can do or dream, you can't begin it.

873
00:45:28,158 --> 00:45:30,638
Speaker 2: Boldness has genius power and magic in it.

874
00:45:30,758 --> 00:45:31,198
Speaker 3: I love that.

875
00:45:31,438 --> 00:45:34,238
Speaker 4: I love that as well. Great job. We'll see you

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00:45:34,278 --> 00:45:34,798
Speaker 4: next time.

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00:45:34,718 --> 00:45:36,198
Speaker 3: Joe, you two brother, Thank you.

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00:45:44,278 --> 00:45:47,518
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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00:45:47,758 --> 00:45:52,718
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:45:52,838 --> 00:45:54,638
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