1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: You can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online, 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: but the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: it to happen in the first place. There are no 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: Radio and Unbuss Creative, I'm bridget Toad and this is 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. This weekend, a 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: year old man entered Club Queue and LGBTQ nightclub in 8 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: Colorado Springs, Colorado. He opened fire, shooting and killing five 9 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: people and injuring at least nineteen others. He was subdued 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: by Richard M. Thierro, a military veteran who was at 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: the nightclub with a family, who tackled the gunman, grabbed 12 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: the gun and hit him with it, while a trans 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: woman who apparently has been misidentified as a drag performer 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: stomped on him with her high heels. This tragic attack 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: on the LGBTQ community, it's just another escalation of the 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: increasing climates of threats and violence against queer people, gay bars, 17 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: and drag events all over the country. Because we are 18 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: in the middle of a full blown dangerous moral panic 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,919 Speaker 1: around lgbt Q identity, drag performers, queer people, and educators 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: are being smeared as pedophiles or being accused of grooming 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: kids for sexual abuse, and this comes as trans and 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: queer people were already under attack. According to NBC, state 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: lawmakers have proposed a record two hundred and thirty eight 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: bills that would limit the rights of LGBTQ Americans this year, 25 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: or more than three per day, with about half of 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: those bills targeting trans folks specifically. What's empowering these bills 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: in part hateful online rhetoric, fearmongering, and baseless conspiracy theories 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,279 Speaker 1: about trans and queer people. And when we first spoke 29 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: back in May, months before the Club que shooting and 30 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: a Hundra, Carbio told me that we all need to 31 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: be paying attention because she says that the kind of 32 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: escalation and violence like we saw at Club Q was 33 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: only a matter of time. My name is Alejandra Carravallio. 34 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: I am a Sovio rights attorney, UM and currently teaching 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: at Harvard Law Schools Cyber Law Clinic as a clinical instructor. 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: Alejandra has spent her entire life building power for and 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: with marginalized communities online and off. As we talked, she 38 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: sat in her office at Harvard, flanked by posters of 39 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: historic power builders like Sylvia Rivera and Marcia P. Johnson. 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: So you are one of the first trans women of 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: color to ever teach at Harvard. I guess my first 42 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: question is what has that been like for you? And 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: how did you get here? How did you get to 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: be doing what you're doing. I mean, it's been three 45 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: I mean I've been very fortunately, I know you said 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: one of Like I was very fortunate to start at 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: the same time as my my dear friend Anya Marino 48 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: Um who's working at the LGBTQ because clinic we started 49 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: with been like a day of each other. Um at 50 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, at the clinics, so we kind of both 51 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: started at the same time. They're both the first transmitment 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: of color to teach at the clinic or at Harvard Law. 53 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been a quite an interesting experience. Like 54 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: I've never been so close to like these kind of 55 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: centers of power this way. Like I grew up in 56 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: a very middle class like Florida suburb, like you know, 57 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: like Harvard just seemed like this like pipe dream out there. 58 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: And even then, you know, I went to Brooklyn Law 59 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: School and I did three years of direct legal work 60 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: doing immigration family law with trans Latine immigrants. Uh, and 61 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: then two years of movement impact litigation at the trans 62 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: generally the Funds Education Fund, and then um, I've always 63 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: been a bit of a tech nerd, so you know, 64 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: this kind of was a nice way to kind of 65 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: give myself a break. I kind of really burned myself 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: out on movement work after five years, and especially during 67 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, it was just there's a lot. So 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: it's it's been great. My students are my favorite thing 69 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: about teaching here, Like they like and one of the 70 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: things I always say is that, you know, law students 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: come to school wide eyed with a lot of hope 72 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: and enthusiasm for the law, and a lot of people 73 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: once they leave law school and actually they packed us 74 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 1: law become very jaded and cynical and like it's hard. 75 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: I fought it, but I am very many ways I've 76 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: become very jaded and cynaco about the law. And when 77 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: I see like the next generational lawyers and I get 78 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: to work with them on projects and cases and really 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: see like how they developed throughout the semester in terms 80 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: of their legal writing skills and everything else, like and 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: just see like the passionate enthusiasm they have for the 82 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: for the work, and also just like the diverse backgrounds 83 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: of the students that I am teaching, all of those things, 84 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: like it just it fills me with hope. And like 85 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: this you know right now, like to to recording, Like 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: I've been doing final evaluations with students and this is 87 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: like one of my favorite times because it's really an 88 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: opportunity not just for me to help students improve, but 89 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: like to help build them up because I have a 90 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: lot of students that come from disadvantaged backgrounds that are 91 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: not the typical you know, which you think of what 92 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: do you think of Harvard Law, and they are rock stars, um. 93 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: And as like someone here who's like not typically represented, 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: I like really realized the power of visibility, right, Like 95 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: just even being visible here means like you know, students 96 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: can come and tell me things that like they probably 97 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: can't tell to like they're seventy something year old assist, 98 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: white male professor, right that just doesn't get it. Um. 99 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: And so that is just really huge, like that visibility. 100 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: And I think also like I take it to the 101 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: next step, like I have my my Sonia poster behind me, 102 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: or my Studia portrait. I also have, uh, you know, 103 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: just like drew a Parrikan flag, I Judge Jackson and 104 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Marcia and Sylvia Rivera and then of course bad Beast 105 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: would compos I call it like my wall of power. 106 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: I love it. I would be so beyond stoked if 107 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: I came to college or came to law school and 108 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: you were my professor, and I would in your office 109 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: looking at your wall of power. That's incredible, Yeah, because 110 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: you don't see these faces typically in the law school, right, 111 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: like you see a lot of older white folks, like 112 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, famous alumni stuff like that. It's rare that 113 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: you see like people of color and like in that way. 114 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: And it's like I could point that we have two 115 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice as one who's an alumni of the 116 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: school and who a lot of people don't know about. 117 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: But he was the Puerto Rican independence leader supposed to 118 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: be the valuatorian of the class of ninety one Harvard 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: Law School as an Afro Latin X And you know, 120 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: Harvard couldn't at that time like stand having a Afro 121 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: Latin X man be the valedictorious. They've withheld his grades 122 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: to keep up to delay him graduating, so he wouldn't 123 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: be valedatorian, but you know, I have them here and 124 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: I am working to make sure he is more visible 125 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: on this campus. Yes, carrying that legacy. I love it. 126 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: I guess one of my one of the questions I'm 127 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: so interested to get into is, I know it has 128 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: been a hard time for trans folks, and I think 129 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: something about the elon Musk News, this was that much 130 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: harder on a time that's already been very difficult. So 131 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: I want to like acknowledge that, you know, what is Twitter? 132 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: The experience of being on Twitter on social media have 133 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: been like for you as a trans woman? Yeah, I 134 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: mean it's been It's been something else. Right. So I've 135 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: been on Twitter for like twelve is years, but I 136 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: didn't really use it. I mostly just kind of had 137 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: a Twitter to just check every once in a while 138 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: whatever it was trending, and um, when I started running 139 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: for city council, ultimately did not obviously, but when I 140 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, I started heavily using Twitter as an organized 141 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: tool and as an ability to connect with others in 142 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: a political way, and I really started building up. But 143 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: following like two years ago, I had like a hundred 144 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: followers um on Twitter, and now I'm like at sixteen thousand, 145 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: So it's like it's just like it's ballooned. And that 146 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: experience changes. Right when you're an anonymous account with a 147 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: hundred people and you just kind of interact like nobody 148 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: really cares, right, But the minute you start getting a 149 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: following and you start getting a lot of engagement and 150 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: stuff like that, like the experience changes. You really start 151 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: getting singled out, um uh for people that if you like, 152 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 1: like for instance, on Monday, like I criticized Elon musk 153 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: Uh buying Twitter and called it like called into question. 154 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: Like a lot of the things that he does are 155 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: that come off as very like white supremacist, like him 156 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: flashing the okay symbol on sn L, him having like 157 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: a segregated workplace at Tesla, his parents having wealth invested 158 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: in an emerald mind in apartheid era South Africa. I mean, 159 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm always just skeptical of any wealthy white person from 160 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: South Africa, Like we only like major red flag, major 161 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: red flag. Yeah, like yeah, you know that the family's 162 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: wealth is built on colonialism like explicitly, um but uh, 163 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, and things like that, and then you know 164 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: just a history of transphobic jokes and statements on Twitter, 165 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: and you know, I think like calling it a question 166 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: that and my god, I got like hate mail on 167 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: my personal working email, which like that almost ever happens, 168 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: and like I had to go private because like I 169 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: was getting not just bombarded, because like I have my 170 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: notifications filtered, so like if they don't follow me, I 171 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: don't I don't see it, you know, so like people 172 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: can go at me all they want and do what 173 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: at ratio whatever the hell they can. I don't care, 174 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: Like I don't see it that way. But what ends 175 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: up happening is I do have my d ms open, 176 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: so I can you tell when something is going sideways 177 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: when I start getting a ton of actually hate d 178 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: M s um, and those get filtered as well, right like, um, 179 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: so it's it's just like message requests, so I don't 180 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: even see them unless I like specifically go like it 181 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: doesn't even send me a notification, and just like it's 182 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: just when I'm checking my messages, so I might check 183 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: them like once a day or something like that. Um. 184 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: And yeah, and like flooded with messages on on Monday, 185 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: and it was just like a lot, and it was 186 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: overwhelming and I was like, you know, I'm taking this private. 187 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: And the only other time I've gotten that dog piled 188 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: was when I criticized Joe Rogan. There's something about these 189 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: like weight men that just like drives others to just 190 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: go to all these links to defend them. I don't understand. 191 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: They don't need to be defended. They have. Elon Busk 192 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: is the richest man in the world with eight million 193 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: Twitter followers. Joe Rogan has the most listened to podcasts 194 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: in the world at like a hundred million dollars. Like, 195 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: he's gonna be fine. He doesn't need a personal army 196 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: to defend him. Yes, have you ever seen that meme 197 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: where it's um, It's like that Simpson's meme where it's 198 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: like um Elon Musk, you know, valid criticism and like 199 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: internet weirdos diving in front of the bullet to save 200 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: him from any kind of valid criticism. I feel like 201 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan Elon Musk, they're two. There are two men 202 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: who really I feel like people must search on Twitter 203 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: for their names to be like, so, yeah, like someone 204 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: criticizing him, not on my watch. And if you notice 205 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: a lot of people who start criticizing Elon Musk or 206 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: even Joe Rogan. Like what they'll do is they'll misspell 207 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: his name like I've seen I Like on my subsequent post, 208 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: I was like using the name melon Husk because like 209 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: they would, but they literally that's what they do. Like 210 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: how like how much of a loser do you have 211 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: to be to sit there and search the name Elon 212 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: Musk so that when you see negative criticism you dogpile 213 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: that person and you attack them like just it's it's 214 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: just like ridiculous, Like get a life, get a job, 215 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: do something. Definitely sounds like the behavior of someone who 216 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: calls themselves an advocate of free speech. So for sure, 217 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break at our back. We've seen 218 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: increasing attacks on LGBTQ folks using the label groomer, according 219 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: to research for Media Matters. On Twitter, the number of 220 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: tweets with groomer related language increased by over six in April, 221 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,839 Speaker 1: with over eight hundred and seventy thousand tweets and retweets 222 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: compared to nearly five tweets in March. Now, grooming is 223 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: a serious thing. It's used to describe the actions and 224 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: adult takes to build a relationship with a child that 225 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: makes that child more vulnerable to sexual abuse, and today, 226 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: both online and off, extremists and apply that LGBTQ folks 227 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: or those who affirm lgbt Q youth are actually pedophiles 228 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: who present a dangerous threat to children. It's a resurgence 229 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: of a well worn tactic of extremists. In the seventies, 230 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: anti gay activist Anita Bryant ran the Save Our Children campaign, 231 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: aimed at repealing a local Florida ordinance prohibiting discrimination on 232 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: the basis of sexual orientation, and a key component of 233 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: her campaign was suggesting that gay teachers were a threat 234 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: to the safety of kids. And it's not just French extremists. 235 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: Mainstream Republicans have passed legislation attacking originalized identities, like laws 236 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: criminalizing trans youth or Florida's Don't Say Gay bill that 237 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: puts vague restrictions on talking about sexual orientation in classrooms. 238 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: Florida Governor Ronda Santiss Press Secretary Christina Pushaw described the 239 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: legislation as quote the anti grooming bill, tweeting that if 240 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: you did not support the don't Say gay quote, then 241 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: you're probably a groomer, or at least don't announce the 242 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: grooming of four to eight year old children. Honestly, it 243 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: is not difficult to see the influence of the Q 244 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: and on conspiracy inter comments, and it should not be 245 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: surprising to find that this moral panic has accompanied a 246 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: wave of violent in real life threats against LGBTQ people. 247 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: It's it's already been kind of toxic. I think with that, 248 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: there's definitely been a vibe shift since February, UM that 249 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: I've noticed, and it's been on like anything I've ever seen, um, 250 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: the kinds of attacks on LGBTQ people, specifically labeling lgbt 251 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: people's groomers like and pedophiles like. I never thought that 252 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: would like happen in that way, and it's just absolutely gross, 253 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: Like it is one of the grossest things I've ever seen. UM. 254 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: And so we saw like in February, like lives of TikTok, 255 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: James Lindsay, some of these like right wing trolls jack 256 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: the Soviet and eventually got all the way up, you know. 257 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: And and then what really changed was to frances Is 258 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: Press Secretary Christina Pusha, uh labeling that don't say gay 259 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: bill as an anti gu grooming bill, um, and like 260 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: that was the first time we have like a government 261 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: official put the im premature of like you know, this 262 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: is a government message that like where you know, if 263 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: you opposed, don't say gay, you're a groomer kind of thing. 264 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: And um, it was terrifying, like like I think for 265 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: for pretty much all the trans people I know on Twitter, 266 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: Like it's like flaring red siren, like this is getting bad, 267 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: Like this is gonna lead to people getting killed. And 268 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: we've already seen someone walk into a barn Brooklyn with 269 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: kerosene and set it on a gay bar and set 270 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: it on fire. Just like two days ago, someone through 271 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: bricks through a pride center in Burlington, Vermont. And this 272 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: comes about two weeks after um, I believe it was 273 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: her name is Feather Fern was was murdered in in 274 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: Vermont like a trans woman. Um, and the person tried 275 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: initiate like the trans planic defense and so like we've 276 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: already seen that, and like that, the the attacks on 277 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: like this gay couple on an Amtrak train in California 278 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: being called pedophiles and child stealers because they adopted to kids. 279 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: Like it's just horrific stuff. And this is directly as 280 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: a result of the toxic online discourse. And because of this, 281 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: like Twitter has generally tried to do the right thing, 282 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: but any time is specifically around trans people. Anytime they 283 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: try to make it better for trans people, though, like 284 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: right wing ecosphere just goes into overdrive, like they just 285 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: like it is, like they feel like it's their constitutional 286 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: right to go on private companies websites to harass trans people. 287 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: It's really not surprising to me that Twitter has emerged 288 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: as this new battleground for the so called culture wars. Traditionally, 289 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: marginalized people use Twitter to carve out power and a 290 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: waste for ourselves. We built movements like me Too in 291 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter on Twitter, and I think the idea 292 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: of marginalized people building power on Twitter is incredibly threatening 293 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: the people who have traditionally had all the power. For instance, 294 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: Elon Musk said that he was inspired to buy Twitter 295 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: after the right wing parody site The Babylon b was 296 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: suspended for refusing to delete a transphobic tweet miss gendering 297 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: Admiral Rachel Levine, who was a trans woman and the 298 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: Assistant Secretary for Health for the U S Department of 299 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: Health and Human Services. And like that's what we saw, 300 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: Like we saw what was reported, right, the babylon be 301 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: being suspended for its joke about Dr Levine was supposedly 302 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: one of the last straws for Elon Musk, and so 303 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: like they pushed the envelope, they pushed this hatred. And 304 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: then when a site tries to step in and say 305 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: like this is leading to violence, this is causing harm, 306 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: they you know, cry free speech or whatnot. But what 307 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: it really is is they want the free freedom to 308 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: bully right, Like, because if you want to say, like 309 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: I hate trans people, don't believe they should exist, you 310 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: can say that to the cows come home, right, Like, 311 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: you could just go on a street corner and yell 312 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: at that is free speech. The government cannot stop you 313 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: from saying that. You can scream it out of a corner. 314 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: You can write manifestos, you can like do it, write 315 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: a novel how much you hate trans people, knock yourself 316 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: out right. But a social media company is different. They 317 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: are not under those obligations, and people fundamentally do not 318 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: understand that the problem is is like, if you bake 319 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: a social media company hostile to people, you're not going 320 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: to stay around very long. Like we've seen what sites 321 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: with no moderation are like four chan h h chan 322 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: a con um, you know, all these sites, like they 323 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: don't have advertisers, no, like typical person goes on there 324 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: because it is filled with racial slurs, anti Semitic slurs, 325 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: homophobic slurs, like just the worst of the worst. Like 326 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: it is literally filled with actual Nazis, Like posting an 327 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: see means so like we know what that looks like. 328 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: And so at some end, like Twitter has to engage 329 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: in moderation, and it really what it is is like 330 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: they're trying to use trance people as a wedge to 331 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: basically destroy a social media site for daring to protect 332 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: trance people. The way that I see it is that, 333 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, in the last five, ten years or whatever, 334 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: social media platforms, I would say all of them, but 335 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: really Twitter is like a special platform people who have 336 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: been traditionally marginalized have been able to you know, have 337 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: a little bit of a more of a voice and 338 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: have a little bit more power that institutionally we didn't 339 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: really get to have. And I think that that's maybe 340 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we're seeing this Twitter be 341 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: this big battlefield right now, because I think people who 342 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: are threatened by that, people who are threatened when they see, 343 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: you know, people who have traditionally had a harder time 344 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: making their voices heard. Get those platforms. Get those voices. 345 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: And even if even if a platform like Twitter does 346 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: the bare minimum to make their platform a little bit 347 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: hospitable to these voices, that feels very threatening or threatened. Yeah, 348 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: that feels very threatening, and therefore they have to sort 349 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: of go out of their way to to remind folks know, 350 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: this platform needs to be hostile toward people who are 351 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: traditionally marginalized. I want that status quo back where I 352 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: can say whatever and they can't say anything right right, um, 353 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: And like it's like the classics, saying right when all 354 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: you're accustomed to is privilege. Equality feels like oppression. Um. 355 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: And that's very much what what it is. Lives of 356 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: TikTok it's a Twitter account run by shier Rycheck with 357 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: over one point two million followers that basically exist to 358 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 1: spread lies and fear about teachers grooming children. The account 359 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: is called public Schools quote government run indoctrination camps for 360 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: the LGBTQ, spread outlandish lies about lgbt Q youth and teachers, 361 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: also singling them out for harassment and abuse. It's also 362 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: become an influential piece of right wing online infrastructure. Florida 363 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: Governor Ron De santisis Press Secretary Christina Pushall said the 364 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: account truly opened her eyes on the state of LGBTQ 365 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: education in schools. I think one of the most illustrative 366 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: issues of this was TikTok. Like what it is is 367 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: it's it's all about fundamentally power, and it's power to 368 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: make sure that the in group maintains power in society 369 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: and the out group is minimized. And in this case, 370 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: the the in group is mostly white conservatives, mostly white 371 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: supremacists and others and fascists, um. And then what you 372 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: have is the out group is like queer LGBTQ people, 373 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: people of color, women, others and like that they want 374 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: to marginalize. And so what ends up happening is is 375 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: like you have TikTok, right, So like TikTok or not TikTok, 376 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: lives of TikTok is specifically retweeting videos of LGBTQ teachers 377 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: that likely have like maybe a hundred or thousand views 378 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: on TikTok. This is these are relatively obscure people that 379 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: are just posting their thoughts online. They ripped those videos 380 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: and they post them online with very leading titles some 381 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: of them, Like I've watched the videos. It's just like 382 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: a teacher talking about the students asking them who their 383 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: husband is. And they like came out to the class 384 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: and they were like, if anyone comes out, and if 385 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: any gay teacher comes out, they should be fired on 386 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: the spot. Like that's literally what lives of TikTok said. 387 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: And so then they come out and they're like, you know, 388 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: they're just exposing liberals for what they say and they're 389 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: just showing up and you know, that's what they do. 390 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: And I like, meanwhile, like they're just setting a torrent 391 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: of harassment towards these people that are relatively anonymous, and 392 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: additionally towards school districts. They're creating a whole panic by 393 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: like pushing this groomer or libel um and then essentially, 394 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, they want the power to do that. And 395 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: then the minute that anybody steps up and says, yeah, 396 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: this is who that person is, shy a ray check, 397 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: Like they forgot to use a pseudonym when they registered 398 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: their domain name, and now that's public information, Like they 399 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: went into overdrive to attack Taylor Lawrenz at the Washington Posts, 400 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: who didn't even expose it, by the way Internet researchers 401 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: exposed it, and they were so upset that this person 402 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: was like docked or you know, quote unquote or that 403 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: they were exposed, and that like it was so vicious, 404 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: and she's exposed her harassment, all this stuff, and it's 405 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: like it's literally what she does. She said she sends 406 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: harassment and had like not her directly, but it's like 407 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: what's called stochastic terrorism, right, she knows that by putting 408 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: somebody on blast on her Twitter, what will happen? And 409 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 1: the fact that she was scared of people know who 410 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: she was, and the fact that they acted like it 411 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: was some big thing to expose that, like like grow up, 412 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: grow up, Like you have an account with a million followers. 413 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: Now you are getting interviewed by Tucker Carlson and national 414 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: media and you have an expectation of privacy. I'm sorry 415 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: you do not um and you know, and again, don't 416 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: use your actual name to register a domain a domain 417 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: like just don't do so. And but but again, like 418 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: going back to the dynamic, like this is about preserving power, right, 419 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: Like That's what lives with TikTok does, right. It creates 420 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: a chilling effect. How many queer or lgbt Q teachers 421 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: on TikTok are not going to talk on TikTok or 422 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: post a video for fear that they will be their 423 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: content ripped and then there will be fired, or have 424 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: a mob at a school board meeting talking about them, 425 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: to asking for them to be fired. Teachers making a 426 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: our parents making accusations against them, like all these things 427 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: just for existing as a queer person, right, Like it 428 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: is a moral panic. That is what it was going 429 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: on right now. I'm so good that you brought this 430 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: up because this is something that I talked about a 431 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: lot on the show and just in general. So Elon 432 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: Musk and people like him, they love talking about free speech, 433 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: and they from the way they talk, it would seem 434 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: as though the people who are likely facing consequence for 435 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: the things they say are white, conservative or libertarian men 436 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: who just like want to say slurs or whatever. But 437 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: the reality is that it's marginalized people who are much 438 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: more likely to face consequences for the things they say, 439 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: especially online. And so you know, I guess my question is, like, 440 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: how can we and I think that just completely gets 441 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: missed whenever we're having in conversation about speech and who 442 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: who you know, free speech for who? How can we 443 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: change that conversation, change that focus so that it is 444 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: about the reality that it's queer folks, transpokes, sex workers, 445 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: activists who are either pushed out of spaces or silenced 446 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: or you know, d platform for what they say, Like like, 447 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: why do you think that that wouldn't be talking? But 448 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: when people who seem so obsessed with talking about speech, 449 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: why do you feel like though the marginalized people who 450 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: we know are the people who are facing consequences of 451 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: what they say, like like why do they get why 452 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: are they able to get left out so often? Yeah? Uh, 453 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: it's mainly because you know, again it's it's insidious what 454 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: these people do. Right. So it again blows down to 455 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: the difference between equality and equity. Right, So, if everyone 456 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: has access on Twitter, that's equality, that's everyone. So everyone's 457 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: equal here on on the site, But that doesn't necessarily 458 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: mean that there's equity, right, Like, there's all kinds of 459 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: things that go into a social media site, like even 460 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: having time to be able to post on Twitter, that's 461 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: a that's a privilege because a lot of people do not, 462 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: Like there are people working two jobs, three jobs, like 463 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: doing stuff like they don't have time to pay a 464 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: touch on Twitter. They're raising kids like to doing all 465 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: this stuff, so like that already, like you're already creating 466 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: all these things. But you know, that's one of the 467 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: things I always love to point out with the difference 468 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: between equity and quality is like, let's say you have 469 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: three children that were different ages and sizes. One is 470 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: like three foot, one is four foot, one is five 471 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: ft and there is a four foot fence, uh covering 472 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: while they're trying to watch a baseball game. Well, you 473 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: could say, I'm going to give them all one of 474 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: a one ft like block for them to stand on. 475 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: The third child is still not going to be able 476 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: to see because but that's equality, right. They all got 477 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: the same boost, and the first kid, who didn't even 478 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: need it in the first place, is now even higher 479 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: up for a better view. But what equity is is 480 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: understanding the nature of the situation and giving that first 481 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: kid a two foot block, the middle kid a foot 482 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: block and then just leaving it and they are there. 483 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: You know, that is equity, right, And so understanding that, 484 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: and so there's an idea here that we you know, 485 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: we've been been discussing within the clinic, you know, within 486 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: our our course here and our seminars, like talking about 487 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: algorithmic reparations, like the designs of these sites, because people 488 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: act like that these things are designed neutral e they're not. 489 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: There's always conscious bias that goes into the design of 490 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: these websites, and so if you're not actively countering it, 491 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: you are permitting it. Um And so that's one of 492 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: the aspects of the design of sites like Twitter that 493 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: needs to be accounted for. And I think Twitter hasn't 494 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: necessarily gone that way. They're just trying to plug holes 495 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: and everything that shows up, right, But they're at least attempting. 496 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: I think they have like like they're trying so that 497 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: that concept of equity, right, that's what they're demonizing. They're 498 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: demonizing diversity, equity, inclusion. They're acting like it's this horrible thing. 499 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: They're banning, you know, any talk about critical race theory, 500 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: which like I'm like, if you want to take critical racery, 501 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: you have to like a two al or three. Ill 502 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: here at Harvard Law School, like we're not teaching it 503 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: to kindergarteners, Like that is not what's happening, but that 504 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: doesn't matter, right, Like all they have to do is 505 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: scream it, and that's all of a sudden, that's audi 506 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: And like what is even more disturbing beyond the critical restor, 507 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: which is like just a wholesale denial of this country's history. 508 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: It's it's all to protect white innocence, right at the 509 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: end of the day, Like that's what it's about. It's 510 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: protecting white inscence. More after a quick break, let's get 511 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: right back into it, just in case you needed any 512 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: more proof that we're in the middle of a full 513 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: blown moral panic. Last month, Laura's education department accused publishers 514 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: of trying to indoctrinate kids with math textbooks by trying 515 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: to sneak in lessons grounded in emotional and social learning, 516 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: which is basically a classroom methodology that helps kids understand 517 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: their emotions around subjects and demonstrate empathy for others. For example, 518 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: if a math book said that sometimes ma problems can 519 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: look scary, or if a book said it's good to 520 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: work together to solve problems, those are the examples of 521 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: social and emotional learning. The Washington Post reports that Florida's 522 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: Education department said that it rejected fort of books, the 523 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: most ever in Florida's history, even though at least twenty 524 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: four of those books scored high marks from the official 525 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: state reviewers for conforming to Florida's standards. But we're rejected anyway, 526 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: and this crackdown happens all will. People like University of 527 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: Virginia recent grad Emma camp who published a recent New 528 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: York Times op ed about how conservative speech is being 529 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: suppressed on college campuses, are uplifted as the face of 530 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: attacks on free speech. What's more devious is like this 531 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: attack on emotional and social learning like this where we 532 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: saw in Florida with like forty books math books banned 533 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: for the crime of putting we it's sometimes better to 534 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: learn together, listen to other people, hear what they have 535 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: to say. And it's like, are you trying to raise 536 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: a country of sociopaths? Like the what is the goal 537 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: of that? Like literally these people would like attack Mr 538 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: Rogers today. Yeah. I saw one of my favorite books 539 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: growing up was Babies Everywhere, and it's like it's like 540 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: essentially a picture book about how there's babies everywhere, and 541 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: it was banned in some state, I can't remember where. 542 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: And the offending the only like offending image I use 543 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: that in scare quotes was one of the babies. Behind 544 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: the baby was two men and one of the men 545 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: has his hand on the other shoulder. And so it's 546 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: like I was reading this interview with the author and 547 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: she was like, we don't explicitly say that they're married 548 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: or that they have this child. It's like they could 549 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: be brothers, they could be friends. Like we don't even 550 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: say anything, but under these under in this new climate, 551 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: just the suggestion like oh, two men standing next to 552 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: each other. No, can't have that in schools. Can't have 553 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: anybody seeing that. Yeah, I mean that, that's that's part 554 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: of it, right, Like it's a race in any sense 555 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: of queerness. And this this is what is frustrating about 556 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: mainstream coverage around this whole debate, right, Like we constantly 557 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: see OpEd after OpEd about I don't feel like I 558 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: can say what I want to say in classrooms and 559 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: like what they mean in like college classrooms or or 560 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: like college courses or college campuses. Like I feel like 561 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: if I say something, my my uh classmates might ostracize me. 562 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: And I'm like Okay, that's real life. Like, I'm sorry, 563 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: that's a new concept. You say something unpopular and people 564 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: will not like it. Yeah, I like you can. I 565 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: can't go into my office and be like, all, y'all 566 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: smell like ship without my co workers getting up that 567 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: what's the deal. It's like, yeah, it's called It's always 568 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: been that way. You there are consequences of the things 569 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: that you say. People can accetrize you when they don't 570 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: like we have to say. And I guess I feel like, 571 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: in comparison to the way that we're seeing this very 572 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: clear cracked down on marginalized voices, it just seems so 573 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: like the whose stories get amplified of you know, quote 574 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: unquote having their free speech crackdown on, where it's like, 575 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: oh my college classroom when I said something they didn't 576 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: like it, compared to you know, people being five, it's 577 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's just really wild to be in 578 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: the mainstream coverage. Who gets amplified and who doesn't. Yeah, 579 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: like in that that that story that was in the 580 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: New York Times recently, Like the woman who wrote it 581 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: like had already just graduated, and I think it was 582 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: working for Reason magazine and like was being pushed up 583 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: by fire and which is like a big or like 584 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: libertarian orc um and like has like these powerful people 585 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: behind her, like performing, and she's like she went to 586 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: University of Virginia, I just like already like one of 587 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: the top schools in the country, and so she's like 588 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: went to a top school, is working at a national 589 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: media and it's like I can't say what I want 590 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: to say in the college classroom. Meanwhile, the most banned 591 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: books in the country are literally is like literally, um 592 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: anything dealing with LGBTQ people. I mean we're literally talking 593 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: about like books that feature like two penguins, Like it's 594 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: it's insane, like and there are like entire like there 595 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: are school boards like saying that books should be burned. 596 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: Like I'm sorry, Like on what way is any of 597 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: this like on an equal plane? Like that is a 598 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: much greater threat because like you know what the cliche goes, 599 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: like where they burned books, they will burn people. Like 600 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: that is far scarier because that is much more systemic, 601 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: and that is using the levels of government to achieve it. 602 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: It's not a private company deciding who is coming into 603 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: their little social media site and saying stuff like that 604 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: is that they're using the government and so like that 605 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: that is on that's explicitly what the First Amendment was 606 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: to protect. The First Amendment is to protect us against 607 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: the government it censoring speech. So we have governments censoring speech, 608 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: banning books and like barely a pip and like all 609 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: of a sudden, we have like one white girl on 610 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: a college campus who feels like she can't say something, 611 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: and like that's on the front page of the New 612 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: York Times, like I'm sorry, like I'm you lost me. 613 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: I guess you know, do you see this kind of 614 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: climate that we're in that is so hostile to or 615 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: where we're seeing such a backlash against marginalized voices, do 616 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: you that you know, we know brew online and brew 617 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: on social media says, do you see this as a 618 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: direct threat to democracy? Yeah, I absolutely do. I mean 619 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: we've seen what social media can do when it's unchecked. 620 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: Literally all we have to do is like a I 621 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: mean I remember being in the middle of it on Reddit. 622 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: Like Reddit was a heavy site for disinformation in the 623 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen campaign, and like it was I felt like 624 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: I was losing my mind, like and like reading similar 625 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: stories of people in Ukraine and twenty four team. Like 626 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: that's what it feels like when you're subjected to that 627 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: kind of disinformation because like you will talk to people 628 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: in real life and like nobody talks that way or 629 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: believes anything like that. And like there's one thing to 630 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: be said about social media bubbles and like stuff like that, 631 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: but it's a whole another one. It's like this just 632 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: like completely out of left field stuff and just the 633 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: kind of vitriol they get, you know, shared online, and 634 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: like we've seen where that leads, right, Like Trump was 635 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: most definitely like it's probably not the only factor, Like 636 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: there's a million things that went into it, but a 637 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: huge reason why Trump was elected is because of disinformation 638 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: on Facebook, on Twitter, on Reddit, on all these sites. 639 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: And so for people to think that this doesn't have 640 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: like a potential threat to democracy, it has the ability 641 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: to influence democracy. Like a conspiracy theory on Twitter got 642 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: a man to go with a uh an assault rifle 643 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: to a pizza shop because of conspiracy theories around, like 644 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: the whole pizza Gate conspiracy. There are people who believe 645 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: that Wayfair is shipping children in furniture, Like if you 646 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: and like was that the I feel like this one's 647 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: always misquoted, but the Voltaire Um quote, it's like, if 648 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: you can get people to believe in absurdities, you can 649 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 1: get them to commit atrocities, and like that That's exactly 650 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that I think about, because like 651 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: if you start labeling like trans people as this like 652 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: groomer cult that are going after children and damaging their 653 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: bodies quote unquote and doing all these things, and like 654 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,919 Speaker 1: all of this, like and just the linguage you're using, 655 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: it is a matter of time. It is not an if. 656 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: It is a when someone is going to take matters 657 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: into their own hands and they're either gonna go shoot 658 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: up a gay bar or they're gonna bomb a gender clinic. 659 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen this is the kind of stuff 660 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: that's going on around und Like the organizing around gender 661 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: clinics is the same kind of stuff that was happening 662 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: in the nineties around apportion clinics, and were like, we've 663 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: seen what happens around that, and so like this kind 664 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: of amped up rhetoric, it's it's stochastic terrorism. Like you 665 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online, but 666 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed it 667 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: to happen in the first place. Yeah, I feel the 668 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: exact same way. Um. I live in d C, so 669 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: I remember very clearly when that happened at Comment Ping Pong, 670 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: the pizza place here in d C, like like that. 671 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: And I think I was even before we just got 672 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: on the call, just now I was reading that. Um. 673 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: I think the FBI arrested a man who was threatening 674 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: to attack Miriam Webster the Dictionary because he did not 675 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: agree with the way that they were defining man and woman. Um. 676 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: And yeah, I just I just feel like we've come 677 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: to this place where the temperature has been raised so much, 678 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: and I see that as a direct result of things 679 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: happening on social media, of social media algorithms really you know, 680 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: prioritizing the most extreme content, the the most you know, 681 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: inflammatory rhetoric, and just yeah, I guess I really I 682 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: I hadn't intended for this interview to sound so alarmist, 683 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: but it's it is. I feel it. So, you know, 684 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: it's just a lot I don't I don't like, I 685 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 1: don't feel good about when I asked, you know, where 686 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: does this end? I don't really like imagining what the 687 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: answer to that question is, Like where does this end. 688 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, probably nowhere good. This is what I 689 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: am reading. Oh my god, you're so you're just like 690 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: really doing is um? So no. I held at the 691 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: book gaberlin Um, which I talked about like pre Weimar 692 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: but also mostly Wimar Republic era Germany, and how you know, 693 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: it was a haven for LGBTQ people. Um had like 694 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: the first the first surgery, gender affirming surgeries that had 695 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: some of the first attempt like first administrations of hormones um, 696 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: the first serious attempt at a study of queer and 697 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: trans people, of lesbians and gays and others like it, 698 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: just like by Magnus Hirschfeld, like all those things, And 699 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: there was just kind of this like golden era where 700 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: it was like that never really existed in that way 701 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 1: in the West of tolerance right in Berlin, and it 702 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: all just came crashing down so quickly in three But 703 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: like if you have been paying attention, like it wasn't 704 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: a surprise, Like a lot of people got out like 705 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: starting in the late twenties, early thirties, like they saw 706 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: what was happening. And so it's like I think people 707 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: just think that like these things come out of nowhere, 708 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: and like you don't you know, and I always hate 709 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: I guessid Godwin's law, like bring up the Nazis and 710 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: stuff like that, because that that that's kind of we have. 711 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: We just have so much media, so that's like it's 712 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: easier to relate to. But I think like if you 713 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: you don't need to go far, you can go to 714 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,720 Speaker 1: contemporary examples. You have Hungary and Poland. Hungary has banned 715 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: the existence of trans people. They've banned all legal recognition 716 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: of trans people in the country. They have made passed 717 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: gay propaganda laws, which the press secretary for Rohn de 718 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: Santis and Florida admitted now that it was based on 719 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: the band in Hungary. Like so they're getting these ideas 720 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: from these like far right, authoritarian, illiberal countries and like 721 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: Russia just dissolved the biggest LGBT rights or in the 722 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: country and they've passed a gay propaganda law. Like they 723 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: see that and they see that as a model, Like 724 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: that is their goal, that is their inspiration um And 725 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: that's terrifying because like that's exactly the same kind of stuff. 726 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: Like like like queer people right now are like that 727 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: canary in the coal mind And I would argue like 728 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: before that it was it's very much been immigrants, Like 729 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: having been in an immigration attorney for three years, the 730 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that people would say about immigrants, the 731 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: kinds of policies we have here in the United States, like, 732 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: like are the conditions that we hold immigrants in detention 733 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: and the rights that they have, like would violate the 734 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: genuine a convention, Like it is atrocious what we do. 735 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: It is a human rights like violation and crime for 736 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: what we do around immigrants. And like we saw the 737 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: ratic rhetoric with Trump, right, and then now it's it's 738 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: LGBTQ people, and we already start to see this, this 739 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 1: kind of massive reactionary backlash to the George Floyd protests, 740 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter protests, and like it's it's only 741 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: a matter of time, like this is going to get worse. 742 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: And it always reminds me of that poem. It's like, 743 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, and I posted this and it went viral, 744 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: and and you know, some people like we're like, well, 745 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: you was this group or exacrement, Like that's not the point. 746 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: There's not point of being a first group. That's the 747 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: point that like if you don't stand up for a 748 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: marginalized group, like it's it's not gonna stop, and so 749 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: I posted the you know, the famous poem. It's like, 750 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: first they came for trans people and I did nothing 751 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 1: because I'm not trans. That they came for the lesbians 752 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: and gays and I did nothing because I'm not lesbian 753 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: and gay, and I was like, we are here right 754 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 1: like especially after this like groomer rhetoric, and it was 755 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: just like it was mind blowing to me to see 756 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: conservative gay men freak out and like, oh, this has 757 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: gone too far, Like like Andrew Sullivan was like apoplectic 758 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: about the groomer labor being applied to him. Is happy 759 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 1: to talk, happy for that label to be applied to 760 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: trans people, but the minute it got applied to him 761 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: was like whoa, wow, this has got too far. And 762 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: it's like where did you think this was going? Like 763 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: did you think that they could just delineate between trans 764 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,439 Speaker 1: people and queer people like that? They can't, like they're 765 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,879 Speaker 1: all the same. They think we're all degenerates. They think 766 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: we're all like need to be wiped from this planet 767 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: like that. It's exterminationist. They are not going to make 768 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: some fine distinction for the good ones. And be like, 769 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: oh no, no, he's okay, no, not gonna happen. Well, 770 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: you know I always end my interviews with the question 771 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: are you hopeful? I guess I feel I feel like 772 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I'll ask it. Does it sound like you 773 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 1: are aren't when you look at this state of things today? 774 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: Are you hopeful? I posted about this on my Twitter 775 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: the other day. I am a pessimist. Like I am 776 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 1: a pessimist. I I love the quote from um Uh, 777 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: I'm a huge marvel nerd Like I love the m 778 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: c U. I've watched that. I just completed a whole 779 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,919 Speaker 1: rewatch of the m c U for the fifth time. Um. 780 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: But there's like a zimdist character m j and in Spiderman, 781 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 1: and she's talking likecause she's like, UM, you know, I 782 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: always expect disappointment, so that way, you know, if if 783 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: it happens, then you know, I won't be disappointed. Um. 784 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: And that's the kind of attitude I have, which I 785 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people like that. That doesn't 786 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: work for them, and that's fine, Like some people need 787 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: to be optimistic. Nothing wrong that my The way I function, 788 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: in the way that I cope is pessimism because if 789 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, which I always hope I am. Things worked 790 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 1: out much better than I anticipated, and so that's always 791 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: kind of served me well. And so like for me, like, 792 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: I see this going down a very dark path, and 793 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything changing. It's and it's only 794 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: accelerating and getting worse. And like I fully believe, like 795 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,399 Speaker 1: like by November or early like I think we'll see 796 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: like basically collapse of democracy in the United States and 797 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: things can go very south, very quickly. Um. And so 798 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: I've been starting to prepare. I'm getting my passport ready, 799 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: and I'm starting to save up a ton of money 800 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: and like getting ready to like, yeah, hey, Europe sounds 801 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: good around this time of year, and like, you know what, 802 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: I know, there's not an option for everyone. It really 803 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: isn't Like a lot of people can't just immigrate, a 804 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,879 Speaker 1: lot of people can't get passports, a lot of people 805 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: can't get the money to even fly, right, So like 806 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: that's a privilege in itself, but like we've got time 807 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,839 Speaker 1: if you can, like you know, save money, like all 808 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: the things. I feel like I'm being very alarmist and 809 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,959 Speaker 1: like negative, but hey, if it doesn't, if everything turns 810 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: out fine, and I'm catastrophically wrong, which I hope I am. Well, 811 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,399 Speaker 1: now I've got my passport and I got a ton 812 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: of money, and I can go on vacation. Oh there 813 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,000 Speaker 1: you go. That's a that's a like, you know, a 814 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: little silver lining on this ship sandwich. That is our 815 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,760 Speaker 1: democracy and our country. Oh, I mean, it's it's bad. 816 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: I used to I used to joke years ago, back 817 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: when I thought it was impossible. So so my organizing 818 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 1: background is in the reproductive rights movement, and I used 819 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: to joke years ago that like, oh, if Roe ever falls, 820 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: I hope I'm I'm I will be reading about it 821 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: from the newspaper in a different country. And now it 822 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: seems like, oh, well I'm still here in the United 823 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: States and it seems like it's gonna happen. So I 824 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,240 Speaker 1: guess that didn't work out for me. So well, yeah, 825 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: I mean, like ask you know, I'll g gt Q Russians, right, 826 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: Like I used to have some friends who who were 827 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: from Russia, and it was like, when is it gonna 828 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,320 Speaker 1: get too bad to go back, right, like for them, 829 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,920 Speaker 1: like to to even visit their family, and um, you know, 830 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 1: now obviously things have gone to a point where it's 831 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 1: like not not really okay, but for a fris with 832 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: you people like was it in twent thirteen and they 833 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: passed the gay propaganda law? Was it like seventeen when 834 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: Zecha started a concentration cancer gay men, Like is it 835 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: now that they start the words? So like there's always 836 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: a question of like when is the right timing? And 837 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,319 Speaker 1: I don't think there really is. Like if you left 838 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: Berlin in nineteen twenty nine, and you'd be fine. If 839 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,359 Speaker 1: you left in nineteen thirty two, you'd be fine. If 840 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 1: you even left in nineteen thirty three, you'd likely be okay. 841 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,800 Speaker 1: If you waited until nineteen thirty five or even lanteen 842 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: thirty nine, who are not gonna be okay? Right Like, 843 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: And so it's like learning our history so that you 844 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 1: can see the signs and knowing, okay, this is my 845 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: red line, like I need to get out of here, 846 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,240 Speaker 1: and having an exit plan because things can also move quickly. 847 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,240 Speaker 1: I feel that like knowing your history and knowing history 848 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: is empowering. I'm I mean, I'm glad that we have 849 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 1: folks like you in our institutions who are helping you know, 850 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 1: the next generation to really have that power to be 851 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 1: empowered by our collective shared history, try as conservatives might 852 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: to make that impossible to study and know and learn from. Yeah, 853 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,920 Speaker 1: exactly where can folks keep up with all of the 854 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,799 Speaker 1: incredible work that I know that you are up to. Yeah, 855 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: you can find me. All My social media handles are 856 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: Squere underscore so E s q U e R. It 857 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: is a portmanteau of Squire and queer. Again. You can 858 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: find me an Square underscore M on Twitter, Instagram. Um, 859 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,240 Speaker 1: and you can catch my podcast, Queering the Law. Um. 860 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: We typically released weekly on Monday's. Um. You can find 861 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: it basically anywhere podcasts are issued. UM and yeah, thank 862 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Is there anything that 863 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: I did not ask but you want to make sure 864 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: it gets included? Um? Yeah? Please please donate to the 865 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: Trevor Project. There is going to be a massive smear 866 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: campaign against the Trevor Project this week or this upcoming week. Um, 867 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,800 Speaker 1: this is how low they've stooped. They're attacking a suicide hotline. UM, 868 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 1: it's it's fucking sick like. That's all I'm gonna say. 869 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: So please if you can ten, it's life saving work. 870 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,959 Speaker 1: Our youth are bearing the front of this. UM and 871 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: They need the help and support, so please if you can, 872 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:42,879 Speaker 1: donate to the Trevor Project. If you're looking for ways 873 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: to support the show, check out our work store at 874 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 1: tangodi dot com. Flash Store. Got a story about an 875 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,759 Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, 876 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: you can be just at Hello at tangodi dot com. 877 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,799 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts today's episode at tangdi dot com. 878 00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 879 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: me big Pad. It's a reduction of iHeart Radio and 880 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: Unboss Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our 881 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,560 Speaker 1: executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. 882 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: Michael Amata was our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. 883 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review 884 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 885 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,359 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever 886 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:21,320 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.