1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: it's still Halloween season, so we're going into the anthology territory. 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: That's right. We have a long tradition here on Stuff 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind of taking short spooky stories around 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: this time of year, uh, snipping them out of their host, 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: drying them, and then stuffing them with science to create 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: an informative and entertaining Halloween sausage. We did this for 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: a few years based on creepy pasta stories, and then 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: we kind of felt like that well was running a 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: little dry, so we turned to an even richer and 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: deeper treasure trove of horror fiction, and that is horror 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: and sci fi anthology series. Uh. A lot of these 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: are shows that aired on TV. A lot of them 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: are also films that feature, you know, several different stories 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: in an anthology format, and there's just a tremendous amount 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: out there. We're We're talking the likes of the Twilight Zone, 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: The Outer Limits, Tales from the Dark Side, Tales from 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: the Crypt Monsters, Black Mirror, and just so many many more. Uh. 21 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: Plus there's a highly popular Simpsons Treehouse of horror episodes, 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: as well as various against cinematic horror anthology, such as 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: The Vault of Horror. So this is gonna be volume four, 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: and then we're gonna do volume five this year. We 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: did volume one in two thousand eighteen, we did volumes 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: two and three and twenty nineteen, so we're continuing the tradition. 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: And uh and again, yeah, I just have to say, 28 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: there's just so much out there in terms of horror 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: and sci fi anthology television. Uh. And then there's this 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: an additional ton of horror and sci fi anthology cinema. 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: So once again this year I found myself just combing 32 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: through contenders that I had either forgotten about, was half 33 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: aware of, or just had flat never heard of. Like 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: like a lot in horror especially, I feel like the 35 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: horror anthology genre tends to feel like low hanging route. 36 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: But but the kicker is that when well done, there's 37 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: nothing else quite like it. Well, yeah, I think that's true. 38 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean there's almost an ancient memory aspect to a 39 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: horror anthology because it feels like people sitting around a 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: campfire going around the circle, each taking a turn to 41 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: tell a story. Yeah, and uh, like the literary short 42 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: story provides wonderful opportunities that full length or episodic mediums 43 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: don't provide. Like a lot of times, you can really 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: put a particular idea in the forefront, you can put 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: a particular twist in the forefront. Uh. And it can 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: work better than it would if you tried to build 47 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: an entire you know, uh TV series around this or 48 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: an entire feature leath length film around us. I was 49 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: actually just thinking the other day about the good things 50 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: about having a short format for horror, because we watched 51 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: a new horror movie that came out this year. It 52 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: was a Shutter original film called Host. It was like 53 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: a Zoom horror movie. It takes place entirely on Zoom, 54 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: but the characters do a say once and there's demonic 55 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: shenanigans and the movie is about an hour long. And 56 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: I thought that worked fantastically because it's, you know, it's 57 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: not a super deep film. It's not especially like thoughtful 58 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: or interesting, but just for an excellent little boo frolic, 59 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: an hour is a perfect length. Uh And and I 60 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: wish more horror movies would just kind of embrace that 61 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: and say, no, we're not going to be as long 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: as it's supposed to be. We're not gonna pad this 63 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,119 Speaker 1: out to eighty six minutes. We're gonna be an hour long. 64 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if it's good enough for Attack of the 65 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: Crab Monsters, an hour run time is good enough for you. Yes, yeah, yeah, 66 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: I definitely thought about that when I watch when I 67 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: watched for the first time, Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein, 68 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: like just shorter format, but nan they got everything in. 69 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, if you're a horror director out there, don't 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: worry about patting it out. I mean, if your movie 71 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: is only fifty four minutes long, I think that's great. Now. 72 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: You mentioned zoom based horror earlier. In a bit later 73 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: on in the episode, we're gonna discuss an episode of 74 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: the nine nineties revival of the Outer Limits. I want 75 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: to mention that there this is not the episode we're 76 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about, but there is an episode called 77 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: dead Man Switch that's that's extremely good, and it has 78 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: to do with individuals humans that are put into uh 79 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: separate bunkers during an alien invasion and each one is 80 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: functioning as a dead man switch for the planetary defense system. 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: But the fun thing about it is all these people 82 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: are solely communicating with each other via this like you know, 83 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: closed network television, basically a zoom scenario. Uh So it's 84 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: a it's a very interesting piece to watch during this 85 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: time of increased zoom meetings, etcetera. All right, well, let's 86 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: just jump right in here to our first selection. This 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: is from the Night two horror anthology film creep Show. 88 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: Uh this is the Lonesome Death of Jordi Verrel. Alright, 89 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: so sidebar before we get started on the plot. This 90 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: segment stars Stephen King in the flesh. He's the actor 91 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: in it. So I've got to ask what are your 92 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: favorite Stephen King acting spots and and I'll announce mine. 93 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: He's got a cameo in a movie called Sleepwalkers. If 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: you've never seen it, I think it came out in 95 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: the eighties or early nineties, and it is about shape 96 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: shifting cat demon things that suck the life essence out 97 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: of young women. And then I think they can turn invisible, 98 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: they can like look like different things, and their weaknesses 99 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: that if they're attacked by cats they die. But anyway, 100 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: in Sleepwalkers, there is an amazing scene that features a 101 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: cameo by Stephen King as a perturbed cemetery caretaker who 102 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: is angry that that perverts keep coming into his cemetery 103 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: at night. But it also contains cameos by Toby Hooper 104 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: and Clive Barker. Oh, I love it when we have 105 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: scenes like that, and that's a fitting like Grizzly cameo 106 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: for for Stephen King. Um, because I remember, probably during 107 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: like the height of my my, my young obsession with 108 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: Stephen King novels. Uh, the TV series Golden Years came out, 109 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: which I don't think is anybody's favorite of Stephen King project. 110 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: I don't think they ever finished it. You know, it 111 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: went maybe a season, maybe less in a season, but 112 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: I remember there being oh, it's like a goodness, I'm 113 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: having a hard time he remembering what the gist of 114 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: it was a man aging rapidly I think, or aging backwards, 115 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: one of the two. Um. It had. One of the 116 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: best things about it was it had David Bowie's Golden 117 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 1: Years as the theme music. But there's a scene where 118 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: Stephen King shows up as a as a bus driver 119 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: and at the time I was like, this is amazing 120 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: that's Stephen. He's the author and he's the bus driver. Um. 121 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: Of course he would go on to have so many 122 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: more interesting cameos and things. Um. For instance, I never 123 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: saw this, but he has pretty wacky one in the 124 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: TV version of The Shining he's this band leader, like 125 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: this really um energetic band, big band leader with a 126 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: pencil thin mustache. He looked fabulously greased back hair, got 127 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: a pencil mustache. That that is not a good look 128 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: for Stephen King. I don't know, you know, he's he 129 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: kind of has the like the face for for facial hair. 130 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: Though he can make most of it work. I feel 131 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: it kind of works. He does better full beard, I 132 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: mean full beard. He looks appropriately shaggy and kind of 133 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: right early with the pencil mustache, he looks like maybe 134 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: he would be the guy who would be discovered in 135 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: the cemetery. Now, in terms of just his acting roles, 136 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: go like things where he's not just a cameo but 137 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: he's actually playing a bit part. He had a really 138 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: fun one in the biker drama Sons of Anarchy. Uh 139 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: several years back. He played a guy who makes bodies disappear. 140 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: So he's you know, just kind of this stern but 141 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: creepy guy in a in a basement that will uh 142 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, make that make that body disappear when you 143 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: need it to end. He insists on listening to eighties 144 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: music while it happens. Well, I've never seen that either, 145 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: but but I'll have to look it up. All right, Well, 146 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: let's get into two creep show here. So creep show 147 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: for anyone who's not familiar with it, with Stephen King 148 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: and George Ramiro's tribute to pre code horror comics of old. 149 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: I think I may have covered the crate in a 150 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: in a previous episode. I'm not sure, but it has 151 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: some wonderful segments, but they're all like sort of mean, 152 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: uh grizzly uh segments that are you know, very much 153 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: in the vein of classic tales from the Crypt and 154 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: so forth, where uh there are bad people that do 155 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: bad things and get their come up. It's usually in 156 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: grizzly ways with a little bit of gallows humor thrown in. 157 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: And like we said, not only is this written by 158 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: Stephen King, but this segment also stars the author as well. Again, 159 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: it's the Lonesome Death of Jordy veryl and it's a 160 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: little bit the Color out of Space and a little 161 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: bit the Blob. It's about a redneck who comes in 162 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: contact with space goo. Uh. Then after coming in contact 163 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: with space goo, some sort of alien plant or plant 164 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: like organism takes over his body. And then he makes 165 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: the terrible mistake of climbing into a hot bath to 166 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: ease his discomfort. The alien plant infection overtakes him and 167 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: he ends up following papahanming Way into the sunset. Then 168 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: we hear on the t V that rainy weather is 169 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: moving in which will spread, no doubt, spread the alien 170 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: plants even wider across the Earth. You know, this connects 171 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: to several other horror stories, uh in interesting ways. One 172 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,319 Speaker 1: that I didn't think of until just now is the 173 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: way that it connects to, especially the late nineteen seventies 174 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: remake of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, which is very 175 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: good and which characterizes the spores that come down and 176 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: possess the humans and turn them into the replicants. Uh. 177 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: They're very plant like. I mean, obviously they're not from Earth, 178 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: so they're not exactly of the Kingdom of the Plants, 179 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: but there's clearly a similarity with plants and an affinity 180 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: for plants among the aliens, and the ending of the 181 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: Jordy Viril segment makes me think very much of the 182 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: beginning of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers Remake, because 183 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: in the opening credits to The Body Snatchers Remake, there 184 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: is this sequence that just kind of shows these filaments 185 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: almost blowing in the wind, and it accomplishes a very 186 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: sinister visual connotation without any words or any explanation, just 187 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: of the idea of biological material kind of drifting and 188 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: through through the air, through space, carried on currents of 189 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: various kinds. Yeah, and of course the weakenings instantly think 190 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: to other sort of plant based horror properties, such as 191 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: the Day of the Triffids, which we've mentioned on here before. 192 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: That's a big one about plant plant like aliens overtaking 193 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: the earth or troll too. That's right, that's right. So 194 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: this Jordy Viral episode, it is the question for me, 195 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: are there any plants that can grow on or in 196 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: the human body under sort of normal circumstances, Because obviously, 197 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: like a dead body filled with dirt, you could grow 198 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: some some plants, and that if you had some sort 199 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: of somehow I had an outfit that had like lots 200 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: of dirt pockets you could grow grow that way. Also 201 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: wanted to you know, avoid discussing bacteria and fungi, sticking 202 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: to just good old plants, which again seems more in 203 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: line with the plant like organisms that we're dealing with 204 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: in this short um. And we're not counting things that 205 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: might look like plants but are in fact tumors or 206 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: what have you. So for the most part, plants don't 207 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: want to be on us or inside us, unless, of course, 208 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: their seeds are traveling on our hair or garments, or 209 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: if their seeds are traveling through our digestive systems. Otherwise, 210 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: there's just not much of an in game going on 211 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: with the inside of the human body or even like 212 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: on the exterior of the human body. Uh, you know, 213 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: seeds need to get in the dirt. But sometimes things 214 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: go wrong, as horribly wrong. As reported in by the 215 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: BBC and various other outlets, a man named Ron vet 216 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: and I believe uh had been battling emphysema, and he 217 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: underwent an X ray as his condition worsened. The doctors 218 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: then discovered that a p had gone down the wrong um, 219 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, the wrong pipe and sprouted in the warm, 220 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: moist environment of the patient's lung. It had only grown 221 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: a half an inch long, but you know, still it 222 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: was enough to cause some concern. Surgeons removed it. Uh 223 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: and uh, we should stress here that what was happening 224 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: is that the P was sprouting as if it were 225 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: under the soil reaching up for sunlight. Thus it grew 226 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: in the darkness of a human body as if it 227 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: were going to sprout out of the body and find 228 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: the sun. Now an energy terms, it couldn't keep growing 229 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: like that forever, right, because eventually it would need sunlight 230 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: in order to supply new energy. But of course, a P, 231 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: like many other uh you know, like the yolk of 232 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: an egg or something, has some chemical energy built into 233 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,479 Speaker 1: it that can propel that initial sprouting from the dark place. Uh. Fortunately, 234 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: it would probably eventually not be able to find sunlight, 235 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: but it still would, I guess, be some kind of 236 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: gross thing in your lung. So it's a good thing 237 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: they took it out. But in the spirit of of 238 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: making the familiar strange, I think we should dwell for 239 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: a minute on the idea of seeds using bodies such 240 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: as human bodies for dispersal. We don't dwell on this 241 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: as a parallel to any kind of botanical body horror 242 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: because it just seems so normal. Well, yeah, you know, 243 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: sometimes you just eat fruit with seeds in it. But 244 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: this is really kind of strange the more you think 245 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: about it. So, of course, there are evolutionary pressures on 246 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: plants that caused them to find methods of seed dispersal, 247 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: not just to produce seeds of for a new generation 248 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: of plants, but to try to get them physically away 249 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: from the parent and uh. And this is because like 250 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: the can share genes of the parent and offspring plant, 251 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: it's don't want to be forced to compete directly with 252 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: one another for resources. And these resources would include soil space, water, 253 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: nutrients in the soil, access to sunlight. If you can 254 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: get the kids out of the house, that's good because 255 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: then you're not fighting over food. And competition of this 256 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: kind can be reduced by dispersing seeds, and nature of 257 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: course has lots of ingenious solutions for this. We've talked 258 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: about some on the show before. For example, you know 259 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: all the different structures the parachute or wing like structures 260 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: that seeds sometimes sprout in order to ride on the 261 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: wind to or to drift, like the like the filaments 262 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: in in Invasion to the body snatchers. Then there were 263 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: even exploding seed pods like you would find on the 264 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: sandbox tree or Hera crepitans, And so this is a 265 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: tree that has thorns all over its trunk. I think 266 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: I've read somewhere that it's called the monkey Can't Climate tree, 267 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: and it produces seed pods that look kind of like 268 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: tiny pumpkins, and they explode in their right literally explodes 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: in ballistic propulsion of seeds up to distances of like 270 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: a hundred meters away according to some reports. But also, 271 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, a lot of seeds rely on 272 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: animals to be dispersed, and this is known as zoo cory. 273 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: So there's epizoo cory, which is the transport of seeds 274 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: on the outside of the animal. So you think of 275 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: like the burrs that get stuck on a dog's fur, 276 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: stuck to your socks. One example of this is the 277 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: burdock plant, which was apparently the inspiration behind the invention 278 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: of velcrow, invention of the loop and fastener system. But 279 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: then there's also, of course what's known as indo zoo 280 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: Corey the transport of seeds inside of the animal, and 281 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: this usually involves creating a tasty, fruiting body containing the seed, 282 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: waiting to get eaten, traveling around inside an animal's digestive system, 283 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: then being released in the animals species to grow in 284 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: a new place. And so if you eat some tasty blackberries, 285 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: you are, in a way, Jordi varrel, you are the 286 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: moost of this plant that is using your digestive system, 287 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: using and your your legs, your mobile body in the 288 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: dispersal of seeds as part of its reproductive cycle. In fact, 289 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: there are even some seeds that are somewhat obligate in 290 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: this way. They need to be primed to grow inside 291 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: an animal's digestive system. Blackberries would be an example, which 292 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: I think usually needs some time in a bird's gizzard 293 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: before they will grow. But all the stories you read 294 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: of like okay, well you know, my cousin knows a 295 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: guy who swallowed a watermelon seed and it grew a 296 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: watermelon inside his stomach, that that's not true. I could 297 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: not find any evidence that anything like that ever happens. 298 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: But while it's unlikely that you would grow a plant 299 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: from a seed in your body while you are alive. 300 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: Could it happen after you're dead? Again? You mentioned earlier 301 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: Rob that if a seed was maybe in your pockets, 302 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: in your pockets were full of soil, it could grow 303 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: out of that. But could it actually grow from inside 304 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: your body? Well, I could not find a verified example 305 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: of this. I found a disputed claim about a fig 306 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: tree that grew out of a murdered man's stomach in 307 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: a cave in Cyprus. But it looks like that that 308 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: account is has has generally been refuted. But I was 309 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: reading an article that talks about that that rumored story 310 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: in Life Science by Laura Geigel, and the author here 311 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: consulted a soil science professor from Oregon State University named j. Knohler, 312 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: and it was Nhler's opinion that such a thing is 313 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: actually plausible. He said that seeds can sometimes emerge from 314 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: dead animals, so he imagines they could likewise emerge out 315 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: of a dead human um. But he said it wouldn't 316 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: have to be in their stomach. It could actually grow 317 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: from any part of the dead person's digestive tract. It 318 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: could be in their large intestine, small intestine, and the 319 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: way it breaks down would work like this. So you'd 320 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: have a dead, decaying body all around the plant seed 321 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: that would sort of help it out with nutrients, very 322 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: possibly with the third party of ungus involved. So microscopic 323 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: fungi in the soil would help decompose the dead body breakdown, 324 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: you know, the fungus would break down fats and proteins 325 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: into simpler constituent nutrients, and then the fungus would share 326 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: these nutrients with nearby plants, possibly even seeds that are 327 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: among the decaying organic material of the body in a 328 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: symbiotic relationship. So they would exchange simple sugars that the 329 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: plant produces for these nutrients that they're getting from decomposing 330 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: the body. But I wanted to think about another way 331 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: of possibly framing infection by an alien plant, apart from 332 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: directly becoming the host or substrate of the plant itself, 333 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: And that's the idea of infection via a plant vector. 334 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: Or to put it as a question, would you let 335 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: a zucchini flower cough in your mouth? And I was 336 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: looking around for for answers to this question can you 337 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: get infected from a plant? And I found an article 338 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: by a plant pathologist and diagnostician at iowas a University 339 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: named Dr. Lena Rodriguez Salamanca, and she said that sometimes 340 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 1: her lab receives questions from the public, including the question 341 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: of can I catch and infectious disease from a plant. 342 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: The answer is in most cases no. You know, pathogens 343 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: that are specialized to infect plants, and of course there 344 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: are many of these. Plants can be infected by fungi, 345 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: by viruses, by bacteria, just like animals can. But usually 346 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: a pathogen that is specialized for one kingdom of life 347 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: is not just going to jump, you know, from that 348 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: one into another kingdom of life and infected. It is 349 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: not adapted to that. But there are cases of a 350 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: few known opportunistic pathogens that will make this jump, and 351 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: this is especially true for people with compromised immune systems. 352 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: So one example is an infectious bacterium known as a 353 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: pseudominous erugenosa, and Rodriguez Salamanca says that it can cause 354 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: a weak soft rot on plants such as lettuce, and 355 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: this bacterium has been known to jump the kingdom barrier 356 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: sometimes infect people with compromised immune systems. This can lead 357 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: to infections of the urinary tract, of the lungs, the 358 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: blood and wounds including burns, but for most people it 359 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: does not represent a threat. But then there are other ones. 360 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: For example, there is a fungal infection caused by the 361 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: fungus Sporothrix shanky i, which thrives on the dead thorns 362 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: of a rose stem, and this has given rise to 363 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: the name rose pickers disease or rose handler's disease. So 364 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: if you're handling a rose and you, you know, get 365 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: pricked by one of these dead thorns that has the 366 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: fungal infection, or get a scratch, this way, the fungus 367 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: can get into your scan, potentially into your lymph system. 368 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: And apparently you can also inhale spores of this fungus 369 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: and this can cause all kinds of problems infections of 370 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: the skin, of course, but of the eyes, the lungs, 371 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: the nervous system, bones, and joints. And then finally she 372 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: mentions that there are infectious agents of plants that can 373 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: produce set candary byproducts that are harmful to humans, and 374 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: she gives the example of fungi that attack corn. The 375 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 1: phrase she used specifically is ear rots, which is a 376 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: new sort of words quick for me. But this includes 377 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: the genus Fusarium and these fungi produced secondary microtoxins, including 378 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: quote few Monison's z ralinone and the aptly named vomitoxin, which, yes, 379 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: that that is what it sounds like. And of course 380 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: these are byproducts that can affect you in all kinds 381 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: of ways. She talks about how most of the things 382 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: like this, like like Aspergillis flavius also is a is 383 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: a contaminant that you could find in grains that produces 384 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: secondary microtoxins. A lot of these things that produce these 385 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: secondary microtoxins that can harm you would be found specifically, 386 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: not in like leafy plants like let us, but on grains. 387 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: And she she mentions, you know, you don't need to 388 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: be too worried because like grain producers monitor for the 389 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: presence of these organisms. So yes, it is in fact 390 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,360 Speaker 1: possible for a human to catch a disease from a plant, 391 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: much in the same way that we could catch a 392 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: disease from a mosquito or a bat, but fortunately it's 393 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: not very common. All right, with that, we're gonna go 394 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: ahead close the book on Ajority Veril and I think 395 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna go and take our first break, but when 396 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: we come back, we will unlock another entry in horror 397 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: anthology history than all right, we're back. Is it time 398 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: to go to the Outer Limits? Yeah, let's go to 399 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: the Outer Limits. Uh. So I mentioned that we would 400 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: be looking at an episode from the nineties revival of 401 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: the Outer Limits. UM not to be confused with the 402 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: original series from the from the nineteen sixties. Uh. This 403 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: is a series that ran through two thousand and two. Now, 404 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: I watched a few of these on TV back in 405 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: the day, but via Amazon Prime Watch Party, we've been 406 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: watching an episode a week with a couple of friends, 407 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: and I have to say, the nineties Outer Limits has 408 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: everything I love. You've got really cool sci fi concepts, 409 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: you have great monster makeup, a little nineties cheesiness, uh 410 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: sprinkled in there, and some really fun performances as well, 411 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: sometimes by people you've you've never heard of, but oftentimes 412 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: by people that went on to have uh you know, 413 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: key roles in in various sci fi properties or uh 414 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: you know they did they did additional television work, so 415 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: you never know who you're gonna get. Like, for instance, 416 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: I haven't watched this yet, but there's an episode where 417 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: Gary Busey shows up playing a televangelist. There's a one 418 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: where Michael Ironside shows up playing a mutant. Uh, it's 419 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: is you just never know who's going to be in there. Yeah, 420 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of oh that guy in it. Yeah. Basically, 421 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: name an actor who is doing TV during this period 422 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: of time, and there's a great chance that they were 423 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: on an episode of The Outer Limits. So during the 424 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: Outer the nineties Outer Limits run they did a hundred 425 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: and fifty two episodes. That's compared to forty nine episodes 426 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: from the original nineteen sixties series. And again I certainly 427 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: haven't watched them all, but this is a really good 428 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: one we're gonna be talking about. It's an episode that 429 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: is probably a bit heavy handed, as these sort of 430 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: things tend to be. Um, but this is also rather pronounced, 431 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: as it was essentially a n commentary about climate change denihalism. 432 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: That's very early. Yeah, yeah, you know, earlier than say 433 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: an Inconvenient Truth and um and the like. But we'll 434 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: get into something like the basic where it fits into 435 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: the basic timeline of of climate change understanding here shortly. 436 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: But but first of all, just so everyone can find 437 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 1: it if you're interested in watching it, it's titled to 438 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: Tell the Truth, and it was written by Lawrence Myers 439 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: and directed by Neil Fernley. It stars Gregory Harrison as 440 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: Dr Larry Chambers. You may remember Gregory Harrison from various 441 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: TV shows. I think he's like like on Trapper, John 442 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: m D or something. Um and uh, you know various 443 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: other shows. Uh, a kind of a soap opera vibe. Yeah, yeah, 444 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 1: definitely and uh and and in this he plays a 445 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: terraforming botanist on the off world colony of Janice five. 446 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: And I love how perfectly on the nose that the 447 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: title is, I mean the name of the colony and 448 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: our planet is because this is an episode that is 449 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: concerned with truth, denial and the mistrust of information. Yes, 450 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: and it has characters whose faces change and who are 451 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: not what they seem. Yeah. So here's the deal. The 452 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: Janice five colony is going pretty well. It has a 453 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: bright future, but doctor Chambers is concerned by some of 454 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: the geologic evidence. Geologic evidence that includes the remnants of 455 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: an extinct shape shifting alien civilization. But five years ago 456 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: he got it really wrong. He predicted cyclo cyclical catastrophe. Uh, 457 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: and he thought it was gonna be a volcanic catastrophe, 458 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: but then this didn't come to fruition. Now he's come 459 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: to believe that the cyclical threat that is facing this 460 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: planet is actually solar and that in another and then 461 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: another devastating solar storm is just on the horizon, so 462 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: he urges that the colony be moved or even evacuated. Yeah, 463 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: there's a great fake out beginning where a couple of 464 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: characters appear to be looking out a window and then 465 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: they see the sky it fills with these shimmering auroras 466 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: and that turns into fire everywhere, and you you think, oh, no, 467 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: are our main character is going to be killed right 468 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: at the beginning. But though it turns out it is 469 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: a simulation they're looking at. But I was wondering why, 470 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: why if they're simulating the future of the climate or 471 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: their simulating solar activity, does it create a video display 472 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: of what it's simulating, would happen? I don't. I guess 473 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: it's just a robust simulation um package they have there. Yeah, 474 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: that's a really good simulation. Usually simulation spit out like 475 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: some numbers. This one does it full like I'll give you, 476 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: I'll give you a movie. So I mean I guess 477 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: it's all about you know, creating something you know, visual 478 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: that of course the audience can get into, but also 479 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: these colonists, because even sympathetic members of the colony have 480 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: their doubts about dot your Chambers. After all, he got 481 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: it wrong once before. And then there's this added detail 482 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,239 Speaker 1: that he recently lost his wife and then even went 483 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: missing for a couple of weeks in the in the wilderness. 484 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: So this there's this lingering question can he be trusted? 485 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: Is he acting out of sort of just nihilistic hatred 486 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: for the colony? Plenty of and also just plenty of 487 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: the colonist who don't want to go through all of 488 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: this again, and the higher ups also have a lot 489 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: invested in the situation. One thing I think this episode 490 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: models extremely well is that when the care so Dr. 491 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: Chambers is trying to convince these characters that his simulation 492 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: is correct, and when characters find the implications of his 493 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: conclusions unpalatable, like well, they don't want to have to 494 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: move or you know whatever, it's not in their interests 495 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: to try to evacuate. Most of the substance of their 496 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: disagreement is not really about what he's saying, but it's 497 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: about him as a person, So they say, like, you've 498 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: got a psychological reason that you would make all this 499 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: stuff up, you know that they start like talking about 500 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: his personal history and attacking his character and saying, who 501 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: is this guy? Can we really trust him? Very reminiscent 502 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: of how similar debates in reality play out. But also 503 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: I've just got to say one of my favorite parts 504 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: of this episode was the repeated threatening visits from this 505 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: guy named Fenton, who has just really got it out 506 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: for Dr Chambers. He seems to be a neighbor of 507 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: his who is some kind of security employee. Uh, but 508 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: he he looks basically like a diminutive evil ken bone. Yeah. 509 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: I loved Finton in this because he's I mean, he 510 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: he works, he's a gain a character, but he also 511 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, he's not particularly threatening and he does he 512 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: also has a great toady vibe to him, Like, I'm 513 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: totally buying that in this off world colony where where 514 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: it's later explained that you know a lot of people 515 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: go here that didn't have a shot at ascending uh 516 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: into the uh you know, into into higher levels back 517 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: on Earth, like this is their shot, and you totally 518 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: buy Finton as a guy who you know, probably wouldn't 519 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: be head of security or a major security player anywhere else, 520 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 1: but here on on Janice five, he's got a shot. Well, 521 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: even on Janice five, he's not the head of security. 522 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: He answers to the guy with the beard. I can't 523 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: remember what that guy's name is, but yeah, he's he's 524 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: some kind of cop or something. But it was just 525 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: really funny how he repeatedly shows up to be like 526 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: this threatening figure, but he's this cute little nerd. Now. Um, 527 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: the key individual here, like the key antagonist I guess 528 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: you would would call him, is the head of the colony, 529 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: Franklin Murdoch, and he's played by the terrific William Atherton. 530 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: Now Atherton is best known for playing Uh. First, there 531 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: was a character in die Hard named Thornburgh, but most 532 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: famously I think he played Walter Peck in four Ghostbusters. 533 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: He he was just a perfect nineteen eighties weasel. Yeah. 534 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: He has a special knack, I think for playing arrogant bureaucrats. 535 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: So in die Hard he's a sleazy, opportunistic reporter and 536 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: in uh in Ghostbusters he plays the villainous e p 537 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: a agent. Yeah, yeah, which is which is is always 538 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: weird now when I rewatch Ghostbusters to think about Ghostbusters, 539 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: because yeah, he has just played as like a straight 540 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: villain or at least a sub villain in the film, 541 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: despite representing the you know now in battled US Environmental 542 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: Protection Agency, which is there too, especially in the film, 543 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: like he's acting to protect New York City from environmental 544 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: damage from from things like unlicensed nuclear accelerators and and 545 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: this containment system that even Egon describes as something that 546 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: can't be turned off without quote dropping a bomb on 547 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: the city. I mean, I think there are a couple 548 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: of ways you could read. Of course, I love Ghostbusters 549 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: and the character is very funny. You could read it 550 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: as that the politics of the movie are conservative. That's 551 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: one another way of reading it is just that like 552 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: this is a comedy where the protagonists are are dangerously 553 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: irresponsible people, and that that's sort of true. Yeah, yeah, 554 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean certainly, like if you really analyze the character 555 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: of Peter bankman, um, you know, how how likable is 556 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: he really? Uh? But you know, Bill Murray, he makes 557 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: it work, Yeah he does. He does now again now, now, 558 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: Peck and Ghostbusters is definitely an arrogant jerk I don't 559 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: want to get past that point. And Atherton brings some 560 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: of that same energy to this performance, but this time 561 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: he is definitely the face of anti environmental forces. Uh, 562 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: and I think he's he's actually well presented here. Instead 563 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: of being just a pure money grubbing heel, Murdoch is 564 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: presented as being someone who opposes Chambers for several reasons. So, 565 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: first of all, Murdoch has a position of power and 566 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: importance here on the colony that he would never have 567 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: achieved on Earth. He has this this really nice little 568 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: monologue where he talks about it. I think he's talking 569 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: is he He's not talking to Fenton, He's talking to 570 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: another character Will mention in a little bit. Also, Murdoch, 571 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: like all the other colonists, has in an economic stake 572 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: in the colony's success, but he also stresses that this 573 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: does not rank above the importance of his own life. 574 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: Murdoch seemingly quite authentically in one of these things, proclaims 575 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: that also Janice five is his home and he doesn't 576 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: want to leave it. So he has that, um, you know, 577 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: tying him to the current situation. And then finally he 578 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: he is concerned that is convincing his chambers. Maybe he 579 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: has been wrong before and he might be wrong again 580 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: for very human reasons. I mean, this episode, actually, like 581 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: you're suggesting, raises a lot of very interesting and legitimate 582 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: real life concerns about saying how to communicate scientific conclusions 583 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: that would motivate action in the real world, because there 584 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: are a lot of difficulties there. But I mean, one 585 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: of the difficulties I think is that science, unlike most 586 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: other epistemological methods, is very upfront about uncertainty. So like 587 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: it builds in the fact that, like, you know, I'm 588 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: trying to tell you that this is a conclusion with 589 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: x probability instead of just saying, like, here's how it is. 590 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: And it turns out that even though that is probably 591 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: the best method that you can use for actually figuring 592 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: out what's true, it is not particularly convincing to motivate 593 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: people to do things that they don't want to do otherwise, 594 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: because it's like, oh, wait a minute, you're acknowledging you're 595 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: not certain, then you know, how can how can we 596 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: make all these costly decisions on the basis of your conclusion? Yeah, yeah, 597 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: I mean, like there's a there's a line in there 598 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: where one of the columns is saying, you're asking us 599 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: to ruin our lives again, like you've already done it 600 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: once before, and now you're asking to do it again 601 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: and and and we can't even be certain about it. 602 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: As a brief aside about the scientific premise of the episode, 603 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: I was interested in Chambers suggest gen that, so what 604 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: happens on on Janice five on the planet is that 605 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: Chambers believes every one thousand years, basically the planet is 606 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,959 Speaker 1: sterilized and nearly all life is wiped out by solar activity. 607 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 1: That that just bombards the surface of the planet with 608 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: radiation and uh and and you know, wipes everything clean, 609 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: and then life has to bounce back. And I was wondering, 610 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: wait a minute, how would it be possible for complex 611 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: life to even evolve on such a planet? And I 612 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: was trying to I was trying to make it work. 613 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: One way I thought of is well, maybe years are 614 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: longer on Janice five than they are on Earth. So 615 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: a thousand years is actually a much longer period. Uh 616 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: So I was looking at you know, what, what's a 617 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: what's a planet that has a really long orbital period 618 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: in our Solar system? Neptune takes a hundred and sixty 619 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: five years to orbit the Sun. So if Janice is 620 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: like Neptune, then a thousand Janie years would be a 621 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five thousand Earth years. But the crazy 622 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: thing is that's still the blink of an eye and 623 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: evolutionary time. Uh. And sometimes it can be hard to 624 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: put that in perspective. But if you consider it like this, 625 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 1: so uh, the if the evolution of life on Earth 626 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: fits into you know, we don't know exactly when the 627 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: first cells arose or or the chemical evolution that gave 628 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 1: rise to the first cells happened, but if you put 629 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: it in basically the last four billion years, more than 630 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: twenty four thousand periods of a hundred and sixty five 631 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 1: thousand years could fit into that. So it makes you think, well, 632 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: if you're going to take this premise seriously that somehow 633 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: complex life evolves on a planet that is sterilized every 634 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: thousand years or so, either that sterilization has to be 635 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: taken into account in the biology of the life that evolves, 636 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: like it goes dormant somehow to avoid the sterilization. Uh. 637 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: And that possibility, I think is raised in the episode, 638 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: or it evolves at rates that are that are unthinkable 639 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: given the kind of evolution we understand here on Earth. Yeah, 640 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: that's interesting, you know, it's it's a very thoughtful show, 641 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: even with its occasional hoke nous, you know, and and 642 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: necessary leaps in you know, in the fantastic Um. But 643 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, it's interesting to think about the idea of 644 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: say comparing it to the organisms that that depend on 645 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: cyclical forest fires. Uh, it's just part of the environment 646 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: that they live in. That's a very good point of comparison. 647 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: And actually a similar idea comes up in the Three 648 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: Body Problem by c Chin Lou. Oh. Yeah, that's right, 649 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: in the simulation that they're working with, right, with the 650 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: world with multiple suns, right, the ideas that they're they're 651 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: unpredictable times when the environmental conditions of their home planet 652 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: become basically unsurvivable and the aliens have to disappear, have 653 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 1: to sort of like go into a hibernation or dehydration 654 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: state in order to just like ride out the uninhabitable 655 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: period and then re emerge once the planet becomes less hostile. 656 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: So this is the basic set up for the the episode. 657 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: And I want stress here, by the way, when this 658 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: is where the audio realm uh Janice five the name 659 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: of the colony. This is this is not Janice like 660 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: the uh as in Janet or anything. This is the 661 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: two faced got And so that's sort of the yeah. 662 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: So from anyway, anyway, from here, the episode, you know, 663 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: takes a couple of I thought really satisfying twists and 664 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: turns that I don't want to spoil too much in 665 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: this episode in case you want to want to see 666 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: it for yourself, and I recommend you do. But let's 667 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: just say that some folks are accused of being shaped 668 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 1: shifting aliens that survived uh, you know, like they living 669 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: in the depths of the earth or something um. And 670 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: we're forced to wonder if Chambers will be proven right 671 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: or wrong and what it will mean for the people 672 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 1: of the colony. Now again, this episode is an obvious 673 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: treatment on the of the dangers of climate change and 674 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: the role that climate change denialism plays in our society. 675 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: To put everything in an historical framework, the greenhouse effect 676 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: was described by French physicist Joseph four in eighteen twenty four. 677 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: BBC has a nice breakdown of key moments after that 678 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: in a Brief History of Climate Change, which brings up everything. 679 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: It brings up everything through because you know, that's that's 680 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: when the timeline came out. But it's a nice handy 681 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: reference point for some of the stuff we're talking about here. 682 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: But they hit a few key points. From the later 683 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: twentieth century, U S scientist Wallace Brocker put the term 684 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 1: global warming in the title of a science paper, popularizing 685 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: the term, and in nineteen eighty seven the Montreal Protocol 686 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: came into effect to protect the ozone layer, and in 687 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: nine eight the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change formed 688 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: to colate and assess the evidence. And of course the 689 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: i p c C continues to collect and assess the 690 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: evidence on on the state of climate change even today. 691 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: I think their most recent major update and report was 692 00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: in furteen. It was the fifth Assessment Report, and it 693 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: paints a pretty dire picture. Now. One thing that this 694 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: BBC timeline also points out, and this is something that 695 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,479 Speaker 1: Carl Sagan wrote about in The demon Haunted World as well. 696 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher gave a speech to the u N in 697 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: nine and urged a global treaty stating quote, we are 698 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: seeing a vast increase in the amount of carbon dioxide 699 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: reaching the atmosphere, and then She goes on to to 700 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: point out that the future changes will quote likely be 701 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: more fundamental and more widespread than anything we have known hitherto. 702 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: And as Sagan pointed out, Thatcher, no matter what else 703 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: you know think about her in her politics, was is 704 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: one of the few heads of state we can point 705 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: to that had a science background. She was a research 706 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: chemist with a chemistry degree from Oxford. A weird thing 707 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: to remember. Yeah, in in the demon Haunted World, Sagan 708 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: brings us up because he's talking about science and politics 709 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: where they meet, and the idea here is that Margaret Thatcher, 710 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, whatever else her her politics might mean, or 711 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: whatever you know, other details regarding her place in history, 712 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: she perhaps had an advantage in understanding these dire warnings 713 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: coming from the scientific community because of her own scientific background. Yeah, 714 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 1: that's interesting. I mean, it is not all that common 715 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: to see world leaders, major political leaders, coming from a 716 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: scientific background, I think, doesn't I think Angela Merkel has 717 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: a scientific one of the few other ones you can 718 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: easily point to. Yeah, but I was trying to think 719 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: of other examples and it come up very very short. 720 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: I mean, that is interesting, and I'm not saying necessarily 721 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,800 Speaker 1: that one needs to be a scientist to be a 722 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: political leader. I mean that that also seems like a 723 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: unreasonable demand. And it's not necessarily true that scientific careers 724 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: would provide all of the kind of skills you need 725 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: to be a good political leader. But it seems like 726 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: it would be good to have at least a higher 727 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: proportion of people with scientific backgrounds involved in politics. I mean, 728 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: it's strange to just like look at the professional backgrounds 729 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: of people who become politicians and notice how uniform it 730 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: is most of the time. I mean, at least in 731 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: the United States, politics is overwhelmingly dominated by lawyers and 732 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: people from business. You kind of wonder how different our 733 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: politics might be if there was a more representative sample 734 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: of people from other fields, of people from the sciences, 735 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: of teachers, of labor. Leader. Isn't so forth that all 736 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: like became political leaders. Also, Yeah, I mean, at the 737 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: very least, you want leaders who listen to trusted scientists. 738 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: You you know, you want scientists to um and uh 739 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: and scientifically minded people to be in positions to speak 740 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: to scientific topics and then have that be a part 741 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: of the you know, the upper political consideration. And I 742 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: don't think that's a controversial statement to make on a 743 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: science podcast. Um, but let's come back to this Outer 744 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: Limits episode. So this came out in which curiously and 745 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: this you know, I don't know what degree this is, Uh, 746 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: this is actually um, you know, essential, but it's curiously 747 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: the same year that the rate of average global surface 748 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: warming began a slowing trend that lasted till now. As 749 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: Rebecca Lindsay points out on climate dot Gov, this really 750 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: just meant that quote the rate of average global surface 751 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: warming from two thousand and twelve was slower than it 752 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: had been for two to three decades leading up to it, 753 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: but the big picture of long term warming continued unchanged. Still, 754 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: climate change deniers at the time took took what climate 755 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: scientists described as a temporary pause or hiatus as proof 756 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: that quote global warming stopped in Oh yeah, I remember 757 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: seeing that claim a lot floating around on the internet. Yeah, 758 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: so again, that might just be pure you Obviously, this 759 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 1: this episode was probably written uh prior to ninety eight, 760 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: and I don't know what the exact production history on 761 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: on the script was that it might just be you know, 762 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 1: pure coincidence that had happened exactly that year, but maybe 763 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,879 Speaker 1: not who knows. I would tend to think coincidence because 764 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: I doubt people. I mean, climate change was not as 765 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,760 Speaker 1: much of a salient issue or political controversy at the time, 766 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,800 Speaker 1: and there wasn't the same like period data to latch 767 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: onto and denying it yet. Yeah, but the idea of 768 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,879 Speaker 1: calling it a pause or hiatus could be really kind 769 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: of misleading. I mean it seems like, actually, what I 770 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,760 Speaker 1: was just talking about goes both ways. It would be good, 771 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: I think, to have more scientists involved in political leadership, 772 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: but it would also probably be good to have more 773 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: people who are experienced with rhetoric and messaging involved in science. Yeah, 774 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: because I mean that honestly. Yeah, that that's kind of 775 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: confusing terminology to throw out there. And and even if 776 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: you don't have an agenda, if you don't have, uh, 777 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,919 Speaker 1: you know, a dog in the hunt, and of course 778 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: this will discuss everybody has a dog in this particular hunt. Um, 779 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, you can see how you might misinterpret that. 780 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: But anyway, Yeah, this was the idea was pushed by 781 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: some that this means, oh, well, global warming has stopped, 782 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: like it's over. Uh, you were freaking out over nothing. 783 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: This despite that global warming is a human cause condition 784 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: still saw two thousand twelve as the warmest fifteen year 785 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: period on record at that time, with greenhouse gases climbing 786 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 1: to new record highs, the oceans were warming, sea levels 787 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: were rising, ice was melting. Now, as we've discussed on 788 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: the show before, part of this comes down to a misunderstanding, 789 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: willful or otherwise, on how science functions. Science is not 790 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: a tool that works or doesn't work, and then maybe 791 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: cast aside like a crooked drill bit or something that 792 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: needs to be replaced. The part in to tell the 793 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: truth about Chambers having gotten it wrong before certainly smacks 794 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: of the common climate denialism mantra of but what about 795 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: the warnings of the new ice Age and other such criticism, right, 796 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot wrong with with that approach, obviously, 797 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: ranging from the treating uh, you know, of all science 798 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: and scientists, regardless of area focus is kind of a 799 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: monolith like, oh, you know, this is what science is doing. 800 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: Is what the scientists are doing. And I found a 801 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 1: scientist that says otherwise, because that also gets into the 802 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: cherry picking and uh, you know, assuming that air and 803 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: recalibration are not part of the scientific process. One of 804 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: the real difficulties with scientific communication is that you can 805 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: always make a kind of confusing reference to the past. 806 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: Like you can find controversy on essentially any issue. Uh. 807 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: You know, there's no scientific issue I can think of 808 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: where through through the entire history of the awareness of 809 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: the issue, all scientists have had it right and been 810 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: on the same page about it. So if you're interested 811 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,919 Speaker 1: in generating the the idea of confusion or controversy about 812 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,919 Speaker 1: any particular scientific conclusion, and you want to make references to, well, 813 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: when have people said different things about this issue in 814 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 1: the past, you can always find something like that. And 815 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: in some cases issue scientific consensus about issues develops and 816 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 1: changes very rapidly. I mean, I think about the ways 817 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: that um for example, current recommendations about how best to 818 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: battle the coronavirus out UH masks and social distancing and 819 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: all that stuff. People who are kind of people who 820 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: are opposed to following the current best guidelines about those 821 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,799 Speaker 1: things will make reference to what people were saying in 822 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: the earliest weeks of the of the pandemic. You remember this, right, Like, 823 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: like initially scientific guidelines were not recommending people wear masks. 824 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: That changed very quickly. We did a very early episode 825 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: where we about the coronavirus, where we we we mentioned that, 826 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: though I should also point out that we also drove 827 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: home that you know we're recording this on such and 828 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: such date, at such and such point in this pandemic. 829 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: Be aware that that, you know, everything may change as 830 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,239 Speaker 1: this story develops. It can be a really frustrating thing. 831 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,879 Speaker 1: I mean. The evidence now for the effectiveness of mask 832 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 1: wearing too slow the spread of the virus is very good. 833 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: It comes from multiple kinds of studies. Studies looking at 834 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: the effects of mask mandates at the population level, studies 835 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 1: looking at the effects of physical barriers on the propagation 836 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: of droplets and aerosols, and can rolled environments, how it 837 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: spreads between hamsters and things like that. The bottom line 838 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: from all of this research up to now is that 839 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: there's very good reason to wear a mask if you 840 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: go out in the public setting or anywhere near people 841 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: outside your household. But no matter how much evidence accumulates 842 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: in that column, there's always going to be this historical 843 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: reference point where people can say, hey, wait a minute, 844 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: like the experts weren't saying that at the beginning of March, 845 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: So how can we be sure that they're right. Now, 846 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: Why is what scientists are saying about the coronavirus or 847 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,319 Speaker 1: about climate or anything now better than what they were 848 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: saying in the past. And it can seem confusing, But 849 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: for the most part, the answer is actually pretty simple, 850 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,920 Speaker 1: and it's that now we have better evidence. There's more evidence, 851 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: more relevant evidence, better quality evidence. That's the difference. Yeah, 852 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: this makes me think about the fact that science can 853 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: be very susceptible to political weapons when those weapons are 854 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 1: leveled at it, because science, science is ultimately this thing 855 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: that is that is taking place and analyzing, you know, 856 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 1: the fun mineral aspects of the larger world, the cosmos, 857 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: whereas politics is very much a condition of of social dynamics. 858 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 1: And so you know, these political weapons, these singers and 859 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: and got your points and basically anything that might be 860 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: used from by one political opponent against another, like those 861 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: are things that are designed to work within a social 862 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,839 Speaker 1: context for the most part, into a certain extent, within 863 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 1: illegal context. But but sciences is like the world beyond 864 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,479 Speaker 1: this domed colony of of law and society. And I wonder, 865 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 1: now that I've said that out loud, I wonder if 866 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: that's kind of the the beauty of this, uh, this 867 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: setting in this outer Limits of episode, because the people 868 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,799 Speaker 1: in the colonists are literally living inside a bubble of 869 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,760 Speaker 1: their own construction, uh, you know, of their own design, 870 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: and trying to evaluate threats that exist outside, like literally 871 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,440 Speaker 1: outside the sphere of their immediate domain. All right, we're 872 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,520 Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with more. 873 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: And we're back now, of course in this Outer Limits episode. Um, 874 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, as as as we we've pointed out before, 875 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 1: there's this stark difference between what's going on with Dr 876 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: Chambers and what's going on with us, because well, it's 877 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,840 Speaker 1: just in the show, it's just Dr Chambers preaching to 878 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,880 Speaker 1: a crowded room and making a case with difficult evidence. 879 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: Though climate change data is certainly complex, but but in 880 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: our world it is a case of overwhelming scientific consensus. Um, 881 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,279 Speaker 1: it's especially as far as climate scientists are concerned. Yeah, 882 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,279 Speaker 1: there's no doubt about that. I mean, we've talked about 883 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,400 Speaker 1: the consensus on this issue and and the studies measuring 884 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,840 Speaker 1: it in previous episodes. I think we talked about that 885 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,319 Speaker 1: in one of the episodes we recorded after you came 886 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: back from the World Science Festival in the previous year. 887 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 1: And we discussed one of the panels about science communication 888 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: and about climate change. But yeah, there's no doubt at 889 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: all that almost all climate scientists are people with expertise 890 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: in the relevant fields, are on the same page with 891 00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 1: the broad strokes of climate change. It is a problem, 892 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: it is major threatening, It is caused in large part 893 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: by the products of human industry. And yet it can 894 00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: certainly feel at times like it's just one doctor Chambers 895 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: pleading with the rest of the colony because there is 896 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: significant and UH and and dangerous lack of commitment to 897 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,920 Speaker 1: combating the problem, especially in the United States, and a 898 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 1: great deal of anti science and anti climate science worldview 899 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,360 Speaker 1: UH is often found here, especially in places of significant 900 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: political power. Yeah, the anti science sentiment is extremely dangerous, 901 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,319 Speaker 1: Like just this year in we've seen the results in 902 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: real time um uh with the coronavirus as failure to 903 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: listen to scientists and take advisories about mask wearing and 904 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: social distancing seriously have led to outbreaks and surges that 905 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: have cost human lives first and foremost, but also cost 906 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 1: time and money. Uh. You know, it can still be 907 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 1: difficult to gauge such threats, but it's certainly a more 908 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 1: I think readily understandable situation compared to climate change, which 909 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, one of the issues. There is again complex 910 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: climate science dealing with you know, longer periods of time 911 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: uh as opposed to everything happening within the space of 912 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: a few months. Though at the same time, we are 913 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: also living in a time of dangerous climate alteration, as 914 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,319 Speaker 1: we endure rising seas, intense hurricanes, and increased droughts and 915 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: heat waves. It's perhaps more pronounced now than ever before. 916 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,040 Speaker 1: And and not everyone has their head in the sand. Certainly, 917 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,240 Speaker 1: According to a report from the Yale Program on Climate 918 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 1: Change Communication and George Mason University's Center for Climate Change Communication, 919 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 1: almost six and ten Americans are either alarmed or concerned 920 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 1: by global warming, which the authors pointed out as being 921 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: a major shift. As for the rest, though well, researchers 922 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: and thinkers have been exploring these questions for years. Again, 923 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,840 Speaker 1: we have a we have we have passed episodes to 924 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,800 Speaker 1: get into this a bit. Why do we deny the evidence? 925 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,400 Speaker 1: You know? Why why deny um climate change? Now? Certainly 926 00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:02,040 Speaker 1: there's much to be said for how unpleasant the reality is. 927 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,240 Speaker 1: No one wants to be a part of a problem 928 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,400 Speaker 1: like this, or to dwell on a future of massy stabilization, relocation, 929 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,360 Speaker 1: and extinction. We as humans are in many ways just 930 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: poorly wired to deal with threats of this magnitude and scale. 931 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: We're better with the short term. Uh, you know, but 932 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: but but what are what are we ultimately to do? 933 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,040 Speaker 1: I Mean, one of the things we've talked about in 934 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,840 Speaker 1: previous episodes about this is the idea that identity protective 935 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:33,480 Speaker 1: cognition plays in why people respond negatively to climate science. 936 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,959 Speaker 1: And this is the thing that we should be sympathetic about. 937 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,160 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody engages in identity protective cognition. Everybody engages 938 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,239 Speaker 1: in forms of motivated reasoning on various issues to try 939 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 1: to protect their their picture of the integrity of their 940 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,719 Speaker 1: self and how they fit into a social system. So uh, 941 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,960 Speaker 1: And this is one of the dangers of scientific issues 942 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,840 Speaker 1: becoming politicized is that once an issue becomes politicized, the 943 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,760 Speaker 1: social and identity connotations of the sides of that issue 944 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: become more relevant than the evidence does. And unfortunately, this 945 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: can happen really rapidly with issues that don't happen to 946 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,319 Speaker 1: have any particular like political values or implications attached to 947 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,440 Speaker 1: them inherently. I mean, there are examples. I was just 948 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,280 Speaker 1: thinking about, how do you remember how at some point 949 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: this year, suddenly it became a political issue with a 950 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:30,200 Speaker 1: political valence whether or not hydroxy chlora quinn was an 951 00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,080 Speaker 1: effective therapeutic for COVID nineteen, which when you step back 952 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 1: and think about that, that's it's like crazy that that 953 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,760 Speaker 1: is not an issue that really has any particular political implications. 954 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't implicate any fundamental values. It just happened to 955 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: get politicized because of who was talking about it, what ways, 956 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: and you know how that was appearing in the media. 957 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,360 Speaker 1: You know, if Donald Trump had come out and said it, 958 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,160 Speaker 1: said that it was not effective, it could have been 959 00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,839 Speaker 1: politicized in exactly the opposite way. So, you know, it's 960 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,719 Speaker 1: like weird, how how totally contingent things like this can be. 961 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, once a scientific question gains political connotations, it 962 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 1: can be very hard to take them off. Just kind 963 00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 1: of stuck there. And people don't want to believe in 964 00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: things that they think of as beliefs inappropriate for a 965 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,040 Speaker 1: person such as themselves, you know, and and so that 966 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 1: that's one of the real dangers. I mean, the best 967 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,720 Speaker 1: thing to do about science is to try to prevent 968 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:32,319 Speaker 1: scientific questions from acquiring a political connotation to begin with, 969 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 1: you have to do your best to try to make 970 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,040 Speaker 1: sure that, uh that a a scientific message or the 971 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,920 Speaker 1: communication of a scientific conclusion is not associated with anybody 972 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,239 Speaker 1: of any particular political affiliation. But that can be very 973 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 1: hard to do. Yeah, absolutely, I mean it like issues 974 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,360 Speaker 1: can be asymmetrically politicized, right. All all it takes is 975 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: basically one major political figure to to decide to make 976 00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: a scientific question a politicize this issue, and you know 977 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 1: they can usually do it. But again, in all this 978 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 1: communication is key, you know. And uh and and a 979 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,320 Speaker 1: lot of this episode of the Outer Limits is about 980 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: like trying to communicate, um, the nature of science to 981 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,719 Speaker 1: people that have their doubts, uh, that are denying what's 982 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: going on. Uh. So I looked at a paper for 983 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,799 Speaker 1: a little more in this titled Understanding and Countering the 984 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,399 Speaker 1: Motivated Roots of Climate change Denial, is by Gabriel Long 985 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:32,600 Speaker 1: Parodi and uh Irena Fagina, published earlier this year in 986 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 1: Current Opinion and Environmental Sustainability. The paper focuses on communication 987 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: approaches to reach climate change deniers in peer viewed studies 988 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: from the past two years. With a special focus on 989 00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,880 Speaker 1: what the authors described as people engaged in quote motivated denial. 990 00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,560 Speaker 1: This means the people in question have access to the facts, 991 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,480 Speaker 1: but they still deny them. On some level. They make 992 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 1: a choice to deny the science and cling to another 993 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,759 Speaker 1: view of reality that flies in the face of scientific consensus. 994 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,919 Speaker 1: But it's easier to accept. Yeah, And again, to be fair, 995 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,360 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I think people should accept the scientific 996 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,040 Speaker 1: consensus on climate change, but I think a lot of 997 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,560 Speaker 1: the people who deny it are not doing so, like 998 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,000 Speaker 1: out of a conscious perversity, thinking like I won't accept 999 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,920 Speaker 1: the facts. I mean, the fact is that motivated reasoning 1000 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,320 Speaker 1: changes how facts appear to us. Things that are perfectly 1001 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,120 Speaker 1: reasonable to believe just suddenly don't seem plausible to you 1002 00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: because of motivations you have. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, 1003 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 1: in one hand, there's the responsibility of what human infoke. 1004 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,240 Speaker 1: Climate change means. It means accepting your part of the problem, 1005 00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,880 Speaker 1: and then it also means accepting that the problem threatens 1006 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,799 Speaker 1: much of the stability and normalcy that you hold dear. 1007 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,879 Speaker 1: And furthermore, you may feel the need to speak out 1008 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,120 Speaker 1: and act and so forth, And it can be easier, 1009 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, on on some level, to simply live in 1010 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,319 Speaker 1: denial like that is an easier mental construct, uh to 1011 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,880 Speaker 1: to erect in the mind, as opposed to dealing with 1012 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,360 Speaker 1: all of these additional change changes, uh to the the 1013 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,759 Speaker 1: world you've grown accustomed to. Now. Chambers does end up 1014 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,200 Speaker 1: being accused of being an alien shape shifter at one 1015 00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,600 Speaker 1: point in this Outer Limits episode, but he never reverses 1016 00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: this charge on the colonists, which is which which is 1017 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: worth worth noting, especially because it ties in a little 1018 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: bit into what um The authors here in the study 1019 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,120 Speaker 1: discussed that I think they would agree that this was 1020 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,960 Speaker 1: the right move. One of the key points to say 1021 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,439 Speaker 1: the aliens right, well, yeah, essentially not to say say, oh, 1022 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: climate change denire is you're a bunch of aliens. There's 1023 00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,280 Speaker 1: something wrong with you. You're you're you're broken in some way. 1024 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,640 Speaker 1: You know that. That's That's one of the key points 1025 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 1: and climate change communication, uh, they point out, is to 1026 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,880 Speaker 1: is not to dismiss deniers outright, but to acknowledge their 1027 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,160 Speaker 1: opinions and beliefs. And they they acknowledge that this can 1028 00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: be difficult, obviously, but they point to four different strategies 1029 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,160 Speaker 1: that that seem to show promise and or seem to work. Okay, 1030 00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,840 Speaker 1: what are the strategies all right? The first is reef 1031 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,280 Speaker 1: fraiming solutions to climate change as ways to uphold the 1032 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,520 Speaker 1: social system and work towards its stability and longevity. Now 1033 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: in the Outer Limits, Chambers does this, of course, by 1034 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,920 Speaker 1: pointing out that if they don't act, the stability of 1035 00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 1: the colony will be threatened. Um. If if he could have, 1036 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, actually had an honest discussion with Murdoch, he 1037 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,800 Speaker 1: might have told him, Look, this will ruin your prospects 1038 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,280 Speaker 1: of profits from the colony. It will endanger your power. 1039 00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 1: It's going to threaten this home that you hold dear. Uh, 1040 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,800 Speaker 1: you know this is this is a threat to all 1041 00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: the things we we value here. Yeah. So I think 1042 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 1: this is saying, like, you know, to be factual in 1043 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,360 Speaker 1: representing what the threats are, but to emphasize the kinds 1044 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 1: of threats that are particularly salient to people with the 1045 00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,720 Speaker 1: political identity who are more likely to deny climate change. So, 1046 00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,160 Speaker 1: to use a Simpsons example, if you were trying to 1047 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,200 Speaker 1: convince members of the Simpsons family not to make a 1048 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,120 Speaker 1: foolish investment in a tobacco farm, you might appeal to 1049 00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: Homer in particular by saying if you do that, you're 1050 00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,080 Speaker 1: not going to have a budget for beer or to 1051 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,640 Speaker 1: pay the cable bill, right, you know, like you you 1052 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,480 Speaker 1: single out the issues that are actually most salient to people. Yeah. 1053 00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,959 Speaker 1: I think a good example of this is we we 1054 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,080 Speaker 1: we we see this in the realization, for instance, that 1055 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,160 Speaker 1: climate change is a national security issue as well as 1056 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:21,040 Speaker 1: a purely environmental one. Yeah. Yeah, it's not just about 1057 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,040 Speaker 1: saving the earth or saving the environment, but safeguarding things 1058 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: like our supply chains, etcetera. So um so yeah, one 1059 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,040 Speaker 1: of the ideas here is don't just the idea of 1060 00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:31,880 Speaker 1: like we need to save the planet, like you know, 1061 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,600 Speaker 1: that's going to carry with it. I mean that's true, 1062 00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,360 Speaker 1: uh you know, but but but that how does it 1063 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:40,800 Speaker 1: need to be tweaked to to to meet the world 1064 00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,440 Speaker 1: view of the person on the other side. And that 1065 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,560 Speaker 1: gets into the second piece of advice they have, and 1066 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,520 Speaker 1: that's reducing the ideological divide by incorporating the purity of 1067 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,520 Speaker 1: the earth rather than how we harm or care for it. 1068 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 1: So this is more about putting I guess you could say, 1069 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,760 Speaker 1: the hopeful spin on it and emphasizing our ability to 1070 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,520 Speaker 1: make changes and perhaps even our responsibility to to look 1071 01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,200 Speaker 1: after the earth that is going to fall in line 1072 01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: with various religious world views, rather than just the shame 1073 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,240 Speaker 1: point of realizing that we've done a lot of harm 1074 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,800 Speaker 1: and that we need to change our ways. Now the 1075 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: author is going to point out to other areas one 1076 01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,800 Speaker 1: number three, rather having conversations about the scientific consensus around 1077 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,280 Speaker 1: climate change with trusted individuals. Now, I think that's easier 1078 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,880 Speaker 1: said than done. Um Uh, take outer limits for example, 1079 01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Chambers is mistrusted. Uh and you know who who else 1080 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,040 Speaker 1: are you going to talk to here? If you cherry 1081 01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,160 Speaker 1: pick you're trusted individuals? Um? You know that can those 1082 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,000 Speaker 1: trusted individuals can include climate deniers or people with without 1083 01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,960 Speaker 1: perhaps with sometimes with a scientific background, but not a 1084 01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,520 Speaker 1: scientific background in climate science. I mean, I think this 1085 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,320 Speaker 1: ties in very much to what I was just talking 1086 01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:56,000 Speaker 1: about with identity protective cognition, Like you don't want to 1087 01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 1: embrace the belief that you see as antithetical to people 1088 01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,720 Speaker 1: in your social group who have the kind of integrity 1089 01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:03,720 Speaker 1: that you value, and so yeah, I think one of 1090 01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 1: the best and most important ways to get around this 1091 01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 1: is to show, hey, people like you, people who you 1092 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:13,640 Speaker 1: socially identify with, they they also agree with the scientific 1093 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 1: consensus here. And then the fourth point they bring up 1094 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,920 Speaker 1: is encouraging people to explosively discuss their values and stands 1095 01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:23,760 Speaker 1: on climate change prior to engaging with climate information. So 1096 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 1: the idea with this one is that quote self affirmation 1097 01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,200 Speaker 1: is challenged when people face climate change because it requires 1098 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,960 Speaker 1: them to consider their contribution to the problem, which can 1099 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,200 Speaker 1: threaten their sense of integrity and trigger self defense. And finally, 1100 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, they say, you want to stress solutions that 1101 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,680 Speaker 1: match in individual's values and don't threaten their sense of 1102 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,880 Speaker 1: identity or their way of life. And now, of course, 1103 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,280 Speaker 1: if we as we've discussed before, this also underlines the 1104 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,400 Speaker 1: horror of politicization of climate change and the attempt to 1105 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,400 Speaker 1: try and uh and bake in climate change denial into 1106 01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,040 Speaker 1: a political worldview. Once something like this becomes politicized, it's 1107 01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 1: difficult to unpoliticize it. Yeah, he'sa Freeman wrote an excellent 1108 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,120 Speaker 1: piece on COVID and climate denialism for The New York 1109 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: Times earlier this month that touches on the work of 1110 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,920 Speaker 1: John Cook, research assistant professor at the Center for Climate 1111 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,120 Speaker 1: Change Communication at George Mason University and founder of the 1112 01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:20,600 Speaker 1: website skeptical science. Um Cook argues that ideology and tribalism 1113 01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,000 Speaker 1: tend to come before facts and people's beliefs about climate change, 1114 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,320 Speaker 1: and that means a lot of the power here falls 1115 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,080 Speaker 1: to people of influence within an ideology, and that means 1116 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:35,240 Speaker 1: that leadership is crucial to overcoming climate change denialism. And again, 1117 01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,880 Speaker 1: isn't that what we see in this Outer Limits episode. 1118 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,840 Speaker 1: Murdoch is the leader of the colony, and while he 1119 01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,280 Speaker 1: admits that he actually briefly you believes Chambers, or at 1120 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,440 Speaker 1: least entertains the idea that Chambers may be correct, he 1121 01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,680 Speaker 1: otherwise works against him at every turn, and the people 1122 01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,280 Speaker 1: look to Murdoch. Uh. Furthermore, Murdoch is a sort of 1123 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,959 Speaker 1: head of state in the off world. Colony. Doesn't only 1124 01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:01,280 Speaker 1: argue against rationally against Chambers, he all so ultimately engages 1125 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 1: in more underhanded tactics, including the use of disinformation. Yeah, 1126 01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:09,080 Speaker 1: they try to personally discredit Chambers with with attacks on 1127 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: his what I would say, his character, but attacks on 1128 01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,040 Speaker 1: his biology. Yeah, I would say character and biology is 1129 01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,840 Speaker 1: the first character and then ultimately biology itself. Um. If 1130 01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,760 Speaker 1: we look to our current situation in October twenty with 1131 01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,160 Speaker 1: with COVID and climate change. It's it's kind of interesting 1132 01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,080 Speaker 1: how to tell the truth forecast our current leadership situation. 1133 01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:35,000 Speaker 1: Um so so so again, this is one of those episodes. 1134 01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,200 Speaker 1: Even though it came out in the nineties, it's still 1135 01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:41,720 Speaker 1: is very relevant today. According to cook Um however, only 1136 01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:44,960 Speaker 1: ten percent of Americans are outright dismissive of the science 1137 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,800 Speaker 1: on climate change, and that seems to correl correlate well 1138 01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,360 Speaker 1: with the twelve percent of Americans who are not concerned 1139 01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:54,840 Speaker 1: about COVID. Friedman writes, quote, this means, he said, referring 1140 01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:57,840 Speaker 1: to Cook, the solution lies, uh, not in persuading those 1141 01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,520 Speaker 1: already steeped in science denial, but in not sculating the 1142 01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 1: other nine of the public from scientific disinformation. He likened 1143 01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,360 Speaker 1: the challenge to eradicating polio, an incurable disease that was 1144 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,760 Speaker 1: all but eliminated in the United States through vaccinations. In 1145 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:14,680 Speaker 1: the case of climate and COVID, he said that means 1146 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,760 Speaker 1: using facts and research combined with vivid analogies to explain 1147 01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,440 Speaker 1: the techniques used to mislead the public. And this is 1148 01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:25,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that cook does through skeptical science, 1149 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:26,920 Speaker 1: which if you want to check out the website it's 1150 01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,919 Speaker 1: just skeptical science dot com. Uh. He provides useful real 1151 01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,040 Speaker 1: world analogies to counter climate denial arguments, and he also 1152 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,960 Speaker 1: wrote an illustrated book titled Cranky Uncle Versus Climate Change, 1153 01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,200 Speaker 1: How to Understand and respond to Climate science Deniers. You know, 1154 01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:45,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to end on too dark a note here, 1155 01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,680 Speaker 1: but but I do seriously worry about because as as 1156 01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,200 Speaker 1: difficult as it is to prevent scientific issues from becoming 1157 01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,560 Speaker 1: politicized in the first place, when you're just dealing with leaders, 1158 01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,280 Speaker 1: you know, trying to make sure that like major media 1159 01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:04,200 Speaker 1: figures and politicians don't start injecting political valences and trying 1160 01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,960 Speaker 1: to get people to align politically around something that's not 1161 01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,280 Speaker 1: really a political issue. It is just a scientific question 1162 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:14,360 Speaker 1: with a factual answer. Um. That's hard enough. It seems 1163 01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 1: like nowadays things are going to be even harder than that, 1164 01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:22,520 Speaker 1: because you essentially have the distributed capability through the Internet 1165 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,800 Speaker 1: and virality and social media to do the same thing 1166 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,920 Speaker 1: to politicize issues. I mean, I already see worrying signs 1167 01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:32,200 Speaker 1: of how sort of like emerging out of the depths 1168 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,120 Speaker 1: of the Internet, you'll get weird conspiracy theories politicizing whatever 1169 01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,880 Speaker 1: vaccine we end up with for for COVID nineteen Yeah, yeah, exactly, um, 1170 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, and to to a wonderful extent, like one 1171 01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,520 Speaker 1: of the great things about a show like The Outer 1172 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:50,160 Speaker 1: Limits is that essentially it's always about people having conversations 1173 01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:55,360 Speaker 1: about uh, you know, science, fictional threats, and and and 1174 01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,040 Speaker 1: and and given that in a short format you have 1175 01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:01,240 Speaker 1: to boil everything down to a simple area like two 1176 01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:03,640 Speaker 1: people trapped in a room or in this case, uh, 1177 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, one scientist speaking to the community in this colony. 1178 01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,360 Speaker 1: But of course, in reality, we have a far more 1179 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: complicated communication system. There's a greater number of players involved, 1180 01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:18,480 Speaker 1: there are different communications systems involved, uh networks, the way 1181 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,360 Speaker 1: that different voices become um uh you know, more pronounced 1182 01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,880 Speaker 1: in our culture, it's it's it's it's far more complicated 1183 01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,960 Speaker 1: than what we have in the Jan's five example. But 1184 01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:32,600 Speaker 1: but I think it works nicely to still as as 1185 01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,360 Speaker 1: an example of the the sorts of problems that we 1186 01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:37,760 Speaker 1: encounter as humans. I mean, I guess we've sort of 1187 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:40,280 Speaker 1: been saying that one of the best outcomes, if we 1188 01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,680 Speaker 1: could enact it with scientific issues that have political ramifications, 1189 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,120 Speaker 1: is to not allow them to become politicized in the 1190 01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,160 Speaker 1: first place. But if that's not really possible, you know, 1191 01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,080 Speaker 1: if you can't prevent issue people from trying to politicize issues, 1192 01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,000 Speaker 1: I think the question is what does the mental vaccine 1193 01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:01,240 Speaker 1: against the politicization of scientific issues look like? How do 1194 01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,120 Speaker 1: you best plant that sort of like, uh, that meme 1195 01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,720 Speaker 1: or that seed in somebody's brain that will grow into, uh, 1196 01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,920 Speaker 1: grow into a sort of mental immune system that rejects 1197 01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:15,440 Speaker 1: these politicizations of scientific issues when it encounters them. That, 1198 01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, so people know how to recognize when it's 1199 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,800 Speaker 1: happening and stop it before it infects them. Yeah, that 1200 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,680 Speaker 1: is the That is the the ongoing problem that we're 1201 01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,240 Speaker 1: continuing to struggle with. And this is the point where 1202 01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 1: we would have the narrator of the Outer Limits jump 1203 01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,560 Speaker 1: back in and nicely summarize the struggle that we've just 1204 01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,640 Speaker 1: witnessed on the screen. But of course, the fallible humans 1205 01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:41,919 Speaker 1: failed in their attempt. Yeah, alright, We're gonna go ahead 1206 01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:46,920 Speaker 1: and close out this volume of the Anthology of Horror, 1207 01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,600 Speaker 1: but we will be back with part five, Volume five, 1208 01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:56,600 Speaker 1: when we will explore even more episodes from TV and 1209 01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,960 Speaker 1: film horror sci fi anthology history and discuss some of 1210 01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,280 Speaker 1: the science and culture surrounding them. In the meantime, if 1211 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,840 Speaker 1: you would like to check out other episodes of Stuff 1212 01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:07,640 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you can find us wherever you 1213 01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:09,920 Speaker 1: get your podcast, wherever that happens to be. We just 1214 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:12,040 Speaker 1: asked that you rate, review, and subscribe if you have 1215 01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:13,880 Speaker 1: the power to do so, and if you want to 1216 01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,040 Speaker 1: find us just really quickly, you can just go to 1217 01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:17,679 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That will shoot 1218 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:20,160 Speaker 1: you over to the I Heart page for our website, 1219 01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,200 Speaker 1: and if you so desire, there's a toggle there for 1220 01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:25,160 Speaker 1: our store and it it just takes you to a T 1221 01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:27,120 Speaker 1: shirt store where you can buy a shirt with a 1222 01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:29,639 Speaker 1: monster or our logo on it. I think they're trying 1223 01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:33,439 Speaker 1: to move those petrifying Gaze shirts which have a wonderful design. 1224 01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my my son, my son did that one. 1225 01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 1: I know, I know, he bought one, so yeah, we're 1226 01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,120 Speaker 1: well I bought one for him, so somebody bought one. 1227 01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,439 Speaker 1: But it's me. Uh, if you want to buy one too, 1228 01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,680 Speaker 1: you can get it on everything. A sticker. You know 1229 01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:50,559 Speaker 1: what a shirt bags. There's no talent, it's good stuff. 1230 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:52,400 Speaker 1: Face mask you can get a face mask with our 1231 01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,320 Speaker 1: logo on them. We're in a monster renaissance, huge things. 1232 01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,320 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 1233 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,160 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 1234 01:09:00,200 --> 01:09:02,599 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 1235 01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,760 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 1236 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:07,400 Speaker 1: email us at contact and Stuff to Blow your Mind 1237 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:17,400 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 1238 01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:20,040 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My heart Radio, 1239 01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:22,920 Speaker 1: visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1240 01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:36,160 Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.