Speaker 1: Welcome of r and then to go sur Brown has
Speaker 1: really being treated to some druming shops again tonight This
Speaker 1: is the Sixers History podcast a hosted by Pro Hoops
Speaker 1: Histories Curtis Harris. Going up but a jot basket. Now
Speaker 1: slide back into time Sixers style with today's episode. Hey y'all,
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Sixer's History with your host
Speaker 1: Curtis Harris. And now today we'll be speaking with the
Speaker 1: journalist Sean Curse about the life and career of Earl Lloyd,
Speaker 1: who has three notable first when it comes to the NBA. So,
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty Earl Lloyd was the first African American
Speaker 1: to play in an NBA game. In nineteen fifty five,
Speaker 1: he was the first black player to win an NBA title,
Speaker 1: alongside his black teammate Jim Tucker. So they did it together.
Speaker 1: And in nineteen fifty nine he became the first black
Speaker 1: assistant coach in NBA history. So the conversation with Sean
Speaker 1: will be I think it's really fantastic because Sean knows
Speaker 1: so much about Earl because he co authored Earl's biography, Moonfixer. Now,
Speaker 1: fortunately Earl did to pass away a few years ago,
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, So we would love to talk with him,
Speaker 1: but he's gone. But Sean is the next best person
Speaker 1: to speak with about Earl's life and career, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: because he helped literally write the book on Earl. So
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy the conversation we haven't store for
Speaker 1: you about Earl's breakthrough an NBA, the process of integration,
Speaker 1: well he was proud of on and off the court,
Speaker 1: and just many other things. So let's kick the conversation
Speaker 1: off with Sean Cursed telling us how he exactly meant
Speaker 1: Earl Lloyd in the first place. I don't want to
Speaker 1: take it too far afield here, but as a kid,
Speaker 1: I grew up in New Buffalo, and as a kid,
Speaker 1: I kind of became aware that that straordinary stuff that
Speaker 1: uh you know, I was one of those guys who
Speaker 1: read a lot of sports books, and I knew that
Speaker 1: Syracuse that had been nants and I used the twenty
Speaker 1: fourth second clock had been invented in Syracuse, that that
Speaker 1: the game had changed in Syracuse. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: the way life goes, I wind up coming there, you know,
Speaker 1: when I was in my late twenties, as a as
Speaker 1: a reporter, and I ended up becoming a sports columnist,
Speaker 1: and I've got a chance to start digging around on
Speaker 1: the old Syracuse Nationals, and this is God's on the truth.
Speaker 1: I was. I was just curious, yeah, you know, just
Speaker 1: knowing the time, time to the team and everything else,
Speaker 1: I was curious as who the first, you know, the
Speaker 1: first African American player they had was and And so
Speaker 1: you know, this is the early nineties, and I don't
Speaker 1: have any internet access or anything like that. So so
Speaker 1: I go to the library, I pull out some books,
Speaker 1: and I find Earl and and and what was incredible
Speaker 1: Curtiss I had when I first saw that. I don't
Speaker 1: think there was any references in the books I saw
Speaker 1: to him being the first. And I think I think
Speaker 1: I called the guy Bill Himmelman, who was NBA historian
Speaker 1: at the time, and it's Bill, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: a big time basketball historian, who who sort of told
Speaker 1: me Earl significance. I had no idea. So so he
Speaker 1: was Syracuse where where where you know, the first African
Speaker 1: American to play in the NBA had spent most of
Speaker 1: his career. No one had any clue, so so, um,
Speaker 1: you know, it became sort of a mission to track
Speaker 1: him down and speak to him. And my most what
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I called him in nearly
Speaker 1: nineties was just his humility that he kind of that
Speaker 1: he kind of shrugged it off, you know, and it
Speaker 1: did what he would do for as long as I
Speaker 1: knew him, which was immediately to start talking about how
Speaker 1: you know, there were so many other people that he
Speaker 1: said would deserve the credit, whether it was you know Sweetwater,
Speaker 1: or whether it was Chuck Cooper, or whether it was
Speaker 1: a Jackie or whoever it was. He that was the
Speaker 1: earl full demeanor throughout the through the decade that I
Speaker 1: knew him. Now, the reason why Earl might say some
Speaker 1: of those guyses are of credit is because Chuck Cooper,
Speaker 1: Nat Sweetwater, Clifton, and hankd His zone where three other
Speaker 1: black players that debuted NBA the same year that Earl did.
Speaker 1: It just so happened to Earl by the schedule, was
Speaker 1: the first one to actually play in a game. It
Speaker 1: wasn't a one man affair. It was four guys at
Speaker 1: the same time, kind of breaking a barrier in the NBA.
Speaker 1: But now Sean tells us, you know, how exactly he
Speaker 1: went from just you know, kind of badroom Earl Lloyd,
Speaker 1: trying to get to know him, to actually helping demand
Speaker 1: write his autobiography. So so in the nineties I just
Speaker 1: repeatedly kept calling him, whether I was writing about the Naps,
Speaker 1: and then just in terms of you know, in larger
Speaker 1: social cultural political issues came up with sports. He was
Speaker 1: just so unbelievably fockful and and I kept reaching out
Speaker 1: to him. So we talked a lot to the point
Speaker 1: where you know, we just started, you know, but at
Speaker 1: this time we have still only I think he came
Speaker 1: to Searci for the first time in like nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: nine or two thousand. They they may have hunted him.
Speaker 1: There were only a few of the MANswers still alive
Speaker 1: at that time, and I think they brought him back
Speaker 1: for some sort of anniversary game or where they gave
Speaker 1: him some Circle awards. So I finally met him, and
Speaker 1: during this time, during these conversations, at some point he
Speaker 1: said to me, you know that at some point I
Speaker 1: should do a book. And then my wife and kids
Speaker 1: are telling me I should do a book that would
Speaker 1: you be interested in working at it with me? And
Speaker 1: I said, absolutely, you tell me when. And the thing
Speaker 1: is so, so he said, point blank, I'm not reading it.
Speaker 1: Go on to it, and you know, I didn't push him,
Speaker 1: you know, and I guess it would have been two
Speaker 1: thousand and six maybe maybe, yeah, I must meat when
Speaker 1: the book came out in O eight, so probably early
Speaker 1: two thousand and six. Calls in one day and says,
Speaker 1: I'm good to goal and and in hindsight, looking back
Speaker 1: on it, I think maybe for the first time he
Speaker 1: felt a flash immortality, you know, and and uh sort
Speaker 1: of wanted to sort of wanted to do it. But
Speaker 1: the process itself was pretty interesting. What he chose, what
Speaker 1: he wanted, what he wanted to do was I think
Speaker 1: very specific to who he was as a person, to
Speaker 1: the human being. You know. Since Sean said that, you know,
Speaker 1: the process was interesting, I just went on and poked him,
Speaker 1: you know, and asked, you know, what exactly did I
Speaker 1: all want to focus on in the book that well,
Speaker 1: here's the thing that I thought was most powerful, and
Speaker 1: did you see it? It's not a long book, you know,
Speaker 1: he did not. He really outside of outside and sort
Speaker 1: of the the you know, sort of the structural framework
Speaker 1: of his basketball career, he was not particularly interested in
Speaker 1: talking about basketball I got, you know, the powerful feeling.
Speaker 1: And I think he would have said this, and it
Speaker 1: was a more sort of a testament to the America
Speaker 1: that he grew up in and and the way he
Speaker 1: saw his role in that America, and then the game
Speaker 1: and and beyond all else. Is concerned about about kids,
Speaker 1: you know, particular particularly African American kids coming up now,
Speaker 1: and and that you can play it play a great story.
Speaker 1: He so, so I go down, I go down to
Speaker 1: a Tennessee. It's that a week with him or so after,
Speaker 1: right towards the end of the book, and he just
Speaker 1: went through every page, went through every sentence. He and
Speaker 1: Charlie and his wife said at the table and just
Speaker 1: went through everything, and he wacked a lot of stuff,
Speaker 1: including at one point and uh, he'd really talked a
Speaker 1: lot about about who he considered the greatest players he's
Speaker 1: ever played against, and and sort of sort of is
Speaker 1: both emotional and and and and uh sort of an
Speaker 1: all star came to he saw it over the years
Speaker 1: he played. And he didn't want it in the book
Speaker 1: because he said that he did not want the impression.
Speaker 1: He did not want to leave. He didn't a lot
Speaker 1: of people saying arguing about whether he was right or
Speaker 1: whether he was wrong. He didn't want that to get
Speaker 1: the impression in the book, and so he winned. You know,
Speaker 1: he made it smaller and smaller. But what I'd been
Speaker 1: thinking about, and it's so amazing that you would call
Speaker 1: me at this time, is that I think, with events
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, I just I mean, some
Speaker 1: of the stuffs he said and the stuff that stays
Speaker 1: with me most powerfully, I think he was prophetic. And
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he's just a really wise guy
Speaker 1: who I think understood human nature and understood the landscape,
Speaker 1: and I think he would not be surprised by a
Speaker 1: lot of the way things are unfolded in a lot
Speaker 1: of words. Now, this is where things got a little interesting,
Speaker 1: because I did ask Sean what was Earl most proud
Speaker 1: of when he came to his basketball career. You'll you'll
Speaker 1: hear the answer, but the reply really does show you
Speaker 1: some of the some of the I guess, the underlying
Speaker 1: racial politics of the era, how black players were retreated
Speaker 1: in certain scenarios versus other ones, at certain moments versus
Speaker 1: other moments, how their skills were valued at that point
Speaker 1: back in early in mid nineteen fifties. I honestly think
Speaker 1: the greatest pride he felt about basketball slam Thunk was
Speaker 1: West Virginia State. I think it was he was on
Speaker 1: there at that team they had I cantmem Ward was
Speaker 1: a you know, thirty something game winning streak, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, there was there was no informal ranking at
Speaker 1: the time, but hey, I think that some of the
Speaker 1: papers in the black press kind of the kind of
Speaker 1: raided national champions and that that his sophomore year they
Speaker 1: were they were national champions, and there was serious talk
Speaker 1: of them being invited to the n i T that
Speaker 1: was squashed because Kentucky was going and then they figured
Speaker 1: her up would never let a yeah you know, I
Speaker 1: never let an all black team in there. But but Earle,
Speaker 1: I think Earle is the way he felt about that
Speaker 1: team and the way he felt about his role on
Speaker 1: that team and in the role he played where he
Speaker 1: was he was more much more of a scorer in college,
Speaker 1: and I think it was a second leading scorer on
Speaker 1: that team, and and uh, you know, loved his coach
Speaker 1: and just had such a feeling for that school as
Speaker 1: a place that that sort of changed his outlook on
Speaker 1: the world. His greatest pride was in that basketball team,
Speaker 1: and then the idea of that history had totally overwhelmed them,
Speaker 1: I think. And this was a guy who he just
Speaker 1: for everything he went, so he never evoked bitterness. But
Speaker 1: but I think he thought pretty powerfully that, um, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the most powerful things he used to talk
Speaker 1: about in the early days in basketball, he was seeing
Speaker 1: as a labor that that he was you know, he
Speaker 1: was under the hole. He was considered a he was
Speaker 1: there to rebound, he was there to play defense, and
Speaker 1: that um, you know, I mean there was that haunting
Speaker 1: line where he said they did not have a play
Speaker 1: for me. That when he played in Syracuse he was
Speaker 1: basically written out at the offense unless he got an
Speaker 1: offensive rebound, you know. And and so I think in
Speaker 1: some ways his basketball career is frustrating for him is
Speaker 1: as well as he did and as much as he
Speaker 1: was an important component on you know, a team that
Speaker 1: made the playoffs every year and then once to the
Speaker 1: finals twice while he was there, and won a championship,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, But but I really believe that. And
Speaker 1: I saw him when he went back to West Virginia
Speaker 1: State and his sense of home and his passion about
Speaker 1: the place never abated. I mean, they've got a statue
Speaker 1: of him there, you know. So we continued the conversation
Speaker 1: about the just the difficulties and just the issues to
Speaker 1: overcome with integration in basketball. So we started off actually
Speaker 1: by first talking about Earl becoming an assistant coach with
Speaker 1: the Detroit Pistons, and that made Earl the first black
Speaker 1: assistant in the NBA and actually probably in all of
Speaker 1: major professional sports NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I'm safe to say he was the first black assistant
Speaker 1: coach given the state of those other leagues at the time.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we chat about his time with the Pistons
Speaker 1: as an assistant coach, and then get back into some
Speaker 1: of the just really the process. I mean I'm stressing
Speaker 1: that word, not just as a joke with the current sixers,
Speaker 1: but really we sit down and think about it historically,
Speaker 1: the process and just the day to day difficulties and
Speaker 1: issues with to integrate what was previously in all white
Speaker 1: space with now some black players in the nineteen fifties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Dick McGuire hired him and and and um, the thing
Speaker 1: that I think he felt the proudest about that was
Speaker 1: his favorite story about that was was I think they
Speaker 1: were playing they were playing against the Warriors. I can't
Speaker 1: remember if they were in San Francisco or at that
Speaker 1: point or not, but they were playing against the Warriors,
Speaker 1: and that a fan came up to him, and a
Speaker 1: fan came up to him and said, hey, you must
Speaker 1: be hurt, right because you were sitting on the you know,
Speaker 1: he's on the beach and jacket and tie. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and uh, um, you know, I know, my animal coach,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and uh but what he he
Speaker 1: McGuire remained close, you know, you know, to the end,
Speaker 1: and and what he always said about McGuire was what
Speaker 1: impressed him the most is that he felt there was
Speaker 1: nothing in it that was anything about breaking arriers or anything.
Speaker 1: You just saw McGuire thought you'd be great coach, and
Speaker 1: that's why he brought him in. And that's where he
Speaker 1: was proudised them about that. But yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: there's any questions when you think about that. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say this categorically, I don't remember, but he
Speaker 1: was certainly in all its professional sports. That's unbelievably early
Speaker 1: right to year I was born, you know, So we
Speaker 1: were continuing talking, me and Sean, and I asked him
Speaker 1: about how did Earl personally view his influence on integration
Speaker 1: and in black players in the NBA. And Sean just really,
Speaker 1: as you hear him say, flipped the question on his
Speaker 1: head as we concluded our phone chat, this kind of
Speaker 1: flips your question out its head. But I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that that's most powerful is the way
Speaker 1: other players at the time, whether it's Russell, whether it's Oskar,
Speaker 1: or whether it's whether it's Jim talked, or whether it's
Speaker 1: all these guys, the way they saw him and understood
Speaker 1: his significance of the al adults had that great court
Speaker 1: where he said he saw him the bed for all
Speaker 1: of us. You know, I think you know I had
Speaker 1: that that one unbelievable story about about the capitals where
Speaker 1: he said the day he walked into the locker room
Speaker 1: there and that and that you know with Basketball League Baseball,
Speaker 1: he's walking across campus and and uh, one of the
Speaker 1: other students heels to the Earl I heard the name
Speaker 1: of the radio, and uh that he had no clue
Speaker 1: he was drafted. And he goes into talk to his
Speaker 1: coach and they kind of talk about it, and the
Speaker 1: coach is like, you know, give it a shot. Why not?
Speaker 1: And and I think it was a ninth round draft pick.
Speaker 1: And um goes into camp and as impressive. But but
Speaker 1: that moment that he talks about that he walks into
Speaker 1: the locker room and it is all white, and he
Speaker 1: said it is the first time in his life that
Speaker 1: that he had a real conversation that wasn't that wasn't
Speaker 1: across a desk or across that Yeah, you know, a
Speaker 1: real conversation with a white person. And and and and
Speaker 1: he's in that situation and um, every everything he gassed
Speaker 1: him that day that I love the story about Bill Sharman,
Speaker 1: you know, volunteers to give him a ride, and that
Speaker 1: that establishes a friendship again that that lasts until the
Speaker 1: two of them die, you know, and and uh, but
Speaker 1: but I think I think that he I don't think
Speaker 1: there's one of the things that that I thought was
Speaker 1: so wild was that you know, soul so Jackie went
Speaker 1: to that whole thing where you know, branch Rickey talks
Speaker 1: to him and says, no matter how much reason you have,
Speaker 1: no matter how much cause you've had, you can't fight
Speaker 1: back at first because if anything goes wrong, if anything
Speaker 1: goes wrong, it's all going to go away. And and
Speaker 1: that that in the nineteen forty eight, I believe um
Speaker 1: in the old NBL top Gates and Mouline are playing
Speaker 1: in Syracuse and him Pop, who is, you know, probably
Speaker 1: the best player in the league, is getting a badgered
Speaker 1: all game and then getting pushed around and finally get
Speaker 1: Filing's angry and throws a punch late in the game.
Speaker 1: And you know this Dand's empty and the Post Standard,
Speaker 1: the search paper called it a race riot, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, other African Americans out of the game, boom,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and that doesn't change until Earl
Speaker 1: comes back. So so despite the fact that role, you know,
Speaker 1: it would diminish his own role, he knew and understood
Speaker 1: what was on his shoulders. You know, there's a that
Speaker 1: that he used to talk about, that that he really
Speaker 1: saw that he had to dress exactly right, and and
Speaker 1: that had to carry himself exactly right, and and and
Speaker 1: he had to sort of go to this level of
Speaker 1: ethic and and and and character that most players did not.
Speaker 1: But but one thing, one thing that I did used
Speaker 1: to love that he used to talk about was he
Speaker 1: said that, uh, in baseball, you know, Jackie was isolated,
Speaker 1: that that it was it was impossible to retaliate baseball
Speaker 1: without seeing it, and that that in basketball, if somebody
Speaker 1: gave him a hard time, he could retaliate in ways
Speaker 1: that no one saw, that that there were a way
Speaker 1: if you know that, as he used to say that
Speaker 1: I could set up kick just right, and and uh
Speaker 1: that would make my point. But but um, you know,
Speaker 1: he also used to talk about that that he felt
Speaker 1: like there was a higher level of education in basketball,
Speaker 1: more guys have gone to college, and that and that, um,
Speaker 1: there was a certain benefit of that, and and um,
Speaker 1: that there had been some integration in basketball throughout the
Speaker 1: forties where there had basically been zero in baseball. But still,
Speaker 1: I think, I think in the in the end, um,
Speaker 1: for all his honesty, the simple truth is that the
Speaker 1: guy took this unbelievable weight on his shoulders right and
Speaker 1: and handled it with this kind of greats and dignity
Speaker 1: and mentor younger players, and and at this critical moment
Speaker 1: in American history, Um, um, you know, transcended the times, right,
Speaker 1: broke those barriers. I mean, you know, I know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm you know I'm hopelessly in the bucket for um,
Speaker 1: but I think you was a great and important American,
Speaker 1: all right. So that brings us to the end. To
Speaker 1: the close of another episode of Sixer's History, the podcast,
Speaker 1: like to express our gratitude and thanks to Sean Cursed
Speaker 1: for taking time out on his vacation so that man
Speaker 1: really wants to talk about Earl Lloyd. He was on
Speaker 1: vacation and had no problem getting on the phone with me,
Speaker 1: So I'd like to thank him doubly for taking time
Speaker 1: out of his hard earned vacation to talk about Earl Lloyd,
Speaker 1: his good friend at Basketball Hall of Famer. But as
Speaker 1: Sean said at the end, there really a great American.
Speaker 1: I think if you get the chance, buy the book
Speaker 1: or get it from your library. It's called Moonfixer. But
Speaker 1: thank you' all for listening to the podcast again to
Speaker 1: get a little hint of what Earl was all about.