WEBVTT - The Sixers History Podcast ~ Breaking Barriers 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.400 Welcome of r and then to go sur Brown has 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.960 really being treated to some druming shops again tonight This 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:15.360 is the Sixers History podcast a hosted by Pro Hoops 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:22.200 Histories Curtis Harris. Going up but a jot basket. Now 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:28.400 slide back into time Sixers style with today's episode. Hey y'all, 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.880 welcome to another episode of Sixer's History with your host 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.440 Curtis Harris. And now today we'll be speaking with the 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:40.720 journalist Sean Curse about the life and career of Earl Lloyd, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.919 who has three notable first when it comes to the NBA. So, 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.120 in nineteen fifty Earl Lloyd was the first African American 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:54.200 to play in an NBA game. In nineteen fifty five, 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.400 he was the first black player to win an NBA title, 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.000 alongside his black teammate Jim Tucker. So they did it together. 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.200 And in nineteen fifty nine he became the first black 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.880 assistant coach in NBA history. So the conversation with Sean 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.039 will be I think it's really fantastic because Sean knows 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:18.440 so much about Earl because he co authored Earl's biography, Moonfixer. Now, 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:20.880 fortunately Earl did to pass away a few years ago, 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.160 in twenty fifteen, So we would love to talk with him, 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.520 but he's gone. But Sean is the next best person 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.440 to speak with about Earl's life and career, as I mentioned, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.160 because he helped literally write the book on Earl. So 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:35.760 I hope you enjoy the conversation we haven't store for 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.520 you about Earl's breakthrough an NBA, the process of integration, 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:42.959 well he was proud of on and off the court, 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.000 and just many other things. So let's kick the conversation 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.000 off with Sean Cursed telling us how he exactly meant 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.880 Earl Lloyd in the first place. I don't want to 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:55.280 take it too far afield here, but as a kid, 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.000 I grew up in New Buffalo, and as a kid, 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.000 I kind of became aware that that straordinary stuff that 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:03.480 uh you know, I was one of those guys who 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.680 read a lot of sports books, and I knew that 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.040 Syracuse that had been nants and I used the twenty 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.800 fourth second clock had been invented in Syracuse, that that 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.800 the game had changed in Syracuse. So yeah, you know, 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:19.320 the way life goes, I wind up coming there, you know, 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.560 when I was in my late twenties, as a as 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.239 a reporter, and I ended up becoming a sports columnist, 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.320 and I've got a chance to start digging around on 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.680 the old Syracuse Nationals, and this is God's on the truth. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:34.760 I was. I was just curious, yeah, you know, just 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.040 knowing the time, time to the team and everything else, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.400 I was curious as who the first, you know, the 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:44.400 first African American player they had was and And so 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.639 you know, this is the early nineties, and I don't 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.880 have any internet access or anything like that. So so 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:50.640 I go to the library, I pull out some books, 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:55.000 and I find Earl and and and what was incredible 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.320 Curtiss I had when I first saw that. I don't 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.880 think there was any references in the books I saw 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.240 to him being the first. And I think I think 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.679 I called the guy Bill Himmelman, who was NBA historian 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:10.640 at the time, and it's Bill, you know, sort of 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.280 a big time basketball historian, who who sort of told 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.679 me Earl significance. I had no idea. So so he 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.959 was Syracuse where where where you know, the first African 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.480 American to play in the NBA had spent most of 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.400 his career. No one had any clue, so so, um, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.560 you know, it became sort of a mission to track 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.400 him down and speak to him. And my most what 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:35.640 I remember the first time I called him in nearly 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.200 nineties was just his humility that he kind of that 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.560 he kind of shrugged it off, you know, and it 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.400 did what he would do for as long as I 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.920 knew him, which was immediately to start talking about how 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.360 you know, there were so many other people that he 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.520 said would deserve the credit, whether it was you know Sweetwater, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.320 or whether it was Chuck Cooper, or whether it was 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.120 a Jackie or whoever it was. He that was the 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.880 earl full demeanor throughout the through the decade that I 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.240 knew him. Now, the reason why Earl might say some 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:07.240 of those guyses are of credit is because Chuck Cooper, 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.840 Nat Sweetwater, Clifton, and hankd His zone where three other 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.720 black players that debuted NBA the same year that Earl did. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.080 It just so happened to Earl by the schedule, was 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.640 the first one to actually play in a game. It 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:24.080 wasn't a one man affair. It was four guys at 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.400 the same time, kind of breaking a barrier in the NBA. 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.120 But now Sean tells us, you know, how exactly he 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.960 went from just you know, kind of badroom Earl Lloyd, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.760 trying to get to know him, to actually helping demand 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:42.000 write his autobiography. So so in the nineties I just 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.279 repeatedly kept calling him, whether I was writing about the Naps, 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.159 and then just in terms of you know, in larger 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.960 social cultural political issues came up with sports. He was 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.680 just so unbelievably fockful and and I kept reaching out 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:00.960 to him. So we talked a lot to the point 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.280 where you know, we just started, you know, but at 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.440 this time we have still only I think he came 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.000 to Searci for the first time in like nineteen ninety 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.760 nine or two thousand. They they may have hunted him. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:16.559 There were only a few of the MANswers still alive 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.760 at that time, and I think they brought him back 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.880 for some sort of anniversary game or where they gave 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.200 him some Circle awards. So I finally met him, and 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.719 during this time, during these conversations, at some point he 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.680 said to me, you know that at some point I 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:34.440 should do a book. And then my wife and kids 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.000 are telling me I should do a book that would 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:38.560 you be interested in working at it with me? And 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.640 I said, absolutely, you tell me when. And the thing 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.240 is so, so he said, point blank, I'm not reading it. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.880 Go on to it, and you know, I didn't push him, 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.800 you know, and I guess it would have been two 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.840 thousand and six maybe maybe, yeah, I must meat when 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:57.880 the book came out in O eight, so probably early 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.159 two thousand and six. Calls in one day and says, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.839 I'm good to goal and and in hindsight, looking back 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:06.719 on it, I think maybe for the first time he 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.640 felt a flash immortality, you know, and and uh sort 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.400 of wanted to sort of wanted to do it. But 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.920 the process itself was pretty interesting. What he chose, what 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.600 he wanted, what he wanted to do was I think 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.800 very specific to who he was as a person, to 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:26.240 the human being. You know. Since Sean said that, you know, 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.520 the process was interesting, I just went on and poked him, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.039 you know, and asked, you know, what exactly did I 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:36.039 all want to focus on in the book that well, 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.360 here's the thing that I thought was most powerful, and 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.400 did you see it? It's not a long book, you know, 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.920 he did not. He really outside of outside and sort 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.960 of the the you know, sort of the structural framework 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:54.920 of his basketball career, he was not particularly interested in 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.320 talking about basketball I got, you know, the powerful feeling. 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.560 And I think he would have said this, and it 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.960 was a more sort of a testament to the America 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.159 that he grew up in and and the way he 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.920 saw his role in that America, and then the game 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:16.360 and and beyond all else. Is concerned about about kids, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.360 you know, particular particularly African American kids coming up now, 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:23.800 and and that you can play it play a great story. 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.640 He so, so I go down, I go down to 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.040 a Tennessee. It's that a week with him or so after, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.640 right towards the end of the book, and he just 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.920 went through every page, went through every sentence. He and 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.520 Charlie and his wife said at the table and just 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.520 went through everything, and he wacked a lot of stuff, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.920 including at one point and uh, he'd really talked a 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.400 lot about about who he considered the greatest players he's 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.080 ever played against, and and sort of sort of is 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:59.160 both emotional and and and and uh sort of an 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.760 all star came to he saw it over the years 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.000 he played. And he didn't want it in the book 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.040 because he said that he did not want the impression. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:08.640 He did not want to leave. He didn't a lot 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.200 of people saying arguing about whether he was right or 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.840 whether he was wrong. He didn't want that to get 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.800 the impression in the book, and so he winned. You know, 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:22.120 he made it smaller and smaller. But what I'd been 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.000 thinking about, and it's so amazing that you would call 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.080 me at this time, is that I think, with events 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:31.680 the last couple of years, I just I mean, some 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.120 of the stuffs he said and the stuff that stays 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:38.840 with me most powerfully, I think he was prophetic. And 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.160 you know, I mean, he's just a really wise guy 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.880 who I think understood human nature and understood the landscape, 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.480 and I think he would not be surprised by a 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:51.600 lot of the way things are unfolded in a lot 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:56.120 of words. Now, this is where things got a little interesting, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:09:01.040 because I did ask Sean what was Earl most proud 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.480 of when he came to his basketball career. You'll you'll 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.600 hear the answer, but the reply really does show you 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.240 some of the some of the I guess, the underlying 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:17.000 racial politics of the era, how black players were retreated 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.000 in certain scenarios versus other ones, at certain moments versus 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.280 other moments, how their skills were valued at that point 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:30.000 back in early in mid nineteen fifties. I honestly think 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.360 the greatest pride he felt about basketball slam Thunk was 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.959 West Virginia State. I think it was he was on 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.440 there at that team they had I cantmem Ward was 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.360 a you know, thirty something game winning streak, and uh, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.319 you know, there was there was no informal ranking at 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.520 the time, but hey, I think that some of the 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:52.560 papers in the black press kind of the kind of 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:57.480 raided national champions and that that his sophomore year they 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.960 were they were national champions, and there was serious talk 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.240 of them being invited to the n i T that 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.720 was squashed because Kentucky was going and then they figured 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.679 her up would never let a yeah you know, I 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.199 never let an all black team in there. But but Earle, 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:16.320 I think Earle is the way he felt about that 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.040 team and the way he felt about his role on 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.360 that team and in the role he played where he 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.120 was he was more much more of a scorer in college, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.320 and I think it was a second leading scorer on 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.800 that team, and and uh, you know, loved his coach 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:35.160 and just had such a feeling for that school as 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:37.480 a place that that sort of changed his outlook on 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.160 the world. His greatest pride was in that basketball team, 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.080 and then the idea of that history had totally overwhelmed them, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:50.360 I think. And this was a guy who he just 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.640 for everything he went, so he never evoked bitterness. But 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:57.800 but I think he thought pretty powerfully that, um, you know, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.559 one of the most powerful things he used to talk 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.400 about in the early days in basketball, he was seeing 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.760 as a labor that that he was you know, he 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.240 was under the hole. He was considered a he was 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.559 there to rebound, he was there to play defense, and 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:15.559 that um, you know, I mean there was that haunting 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.680 line where he said they did not have a play 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.800 for me. That when he played in Syracuse he was 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.920 basically written out at the offense unless he got an 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.880 offensive rebound, you know. And and so I think in 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:31.040 some ways his basketball career is frustrating for him is 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:34.640 as well as he did and as much as he 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.240 was an important component on you know, a team that 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.400 made the playoffs every year and then once to the 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.439 finals twice while he was there, and won a championship, 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:48.360 you know. Um, But but I really believe that. And 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.160 I saw him when he went back to West Virginia 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:56.720 State and his sense of home and his passion about 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.520 the place never abated. I mean, they've got a statue 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:04.440 of him there, you know. So we continued the conversation 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.760 about the just the difficulties and just the issues to 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:13.440 overcome with integration in basketball. So we started off actually 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.040 by first talking about Earl becoming an assistant coach with 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.000 the Detroit Pistons, and that made Earl the first black 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:23.640 assistant in the NBA and actually probably in all of 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:30.559 major professional sports NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA. Yeah, I think 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.720 I'm safe to say he was the first black assistant 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.240 coach given the state of those other leagues at the time. 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:38.800 But yeah, we chat about his time with the Pistons 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.360 as an assistant coach, and then get back into some 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:47.760 of the just really the process. I mean I'm stressing 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.080 that word, not just as a joke with the current sixers, 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.440 but really we sit down and think about it historically, 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.800 the process and just the day to day difficulties and 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:03.000 issues with to integrate what was previously in all white 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:08.400 space with now some black players in the nineteen fifties. Yeah, 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.800 Dick McGuire hired him and and and um, the thing 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.280 that I think he felt the proudest about that was 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.560 his favorite story about that was was I think they 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:23.160 were playing they were playing against the Warriors. I can't 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.440 remember if they were in San Francisco or at that 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.040 point or not, but they were playing against the Warriors, 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.079 and that a fan came up to him, and a 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.160 fan came up to him and said, hey, you must 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:36.240 be hurt, right because you were sitting on the you know, 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.000 he's on the beach and jacket and tie. Yeah, you know, 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.640 and uh, um, you know, I know, my animal coach, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.400 you know, and then and uh but what he he 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.480 McGuire remained close, you know, you know, to the end, 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.240 and and what he always said about McGuire was what 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.000 impressed him the most is that he felt there was 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.760 nothing in it that was anything about breaking arriers or anything. 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:02.960 You just saw McGuire thought you'd be great coach, and 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.480 that's why he brought him in. And that's where he 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.800 was proudised them about that. But yeah, I don't think 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:11.440 there's any questions when you think about that. I don't 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.800 want to say this categorically, I don't remember, but he 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:18.400 was certainly in all its professional sports. That's unbelievably early 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.480 right to year I was born, you know, So we 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.800 were continuing talking, me and Sean, and I asked him 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:30.720 about how did Earl personally view his influence on integration 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.440 and in black players in the NBA. And Sean just really, 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.720 as you hear him say, flipped the question on his 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:43.120 head as we concluded our phone chat, this kind of 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.720 flips your question out its head. But I think one 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.240 of the things that that's most powerful is the way 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.840 other players at the time, whether it's Russell, whether it's Oskar, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:52.960 or whether it's whether it's Jim talked, or whether it's 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.680 all these guys, the way they saw him and understood 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.360 his significance of the al adults had that great court 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.480 where he said he saw him the bed for all 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.680 of us. You know, I think you know I had 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.920 that that one unbelievable story about about the capitals where 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.200 he said the day he walked into the locker room 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.600 there and that and that you know with Basketball League Baseball, 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.280 he's walking across campus and and uh, one of the 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.360 other students heels to the Earl I heard the name 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.320 of the radio, and uh that he had no clue 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.200 he was drafted. And he goes into talk to his 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:26.960 coach and they kind of talk about it, and the 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.240 coach is like, you know, give it a shot. Why not? 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.040 And and I think it was a ninth round draft pick. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.400 And um goes into camp and as impressive. But but 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.840 that moment that he talks about that he walks into 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.240 the locker room and it is all white, and he 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.840 said it is the first time in his life that 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.240 that he had a real conversation that wasn't that wasn't 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.480 across a desk or across that Yeah, you know, a 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.040 real conversation with a white person. And and and and 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.480 he's in that situation and um, every everything he gassed 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:04.040 him that day that I love the story about Bill Sharman, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.080 you know, volunteers to give him a ride, and that 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.160 that establishes a friendship again that that lasts until the 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.960 two of them die, you know, and and uh, but 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.240 but I think I think that he I don't think 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.800 there's one of the things that that I thought was 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.320 so wild was that you know, soul so Jackie went 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.440 to that whole thing where you know, branch Rickey talks 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.600 to him and says, no matter how much reason you have, 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.840 no matter how much cause you've had, you can't fight 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.720 back at first because if anything goes wrong, if anything 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.080 goes wrong, it's all going to go away. And and 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:43.480 that that in the nineteen forty eight, I believe um 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.800 in the old NBL top Gates and Mouline are playing 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.160 in Syracuse and him Pop, who is, you know, probably 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.840 the best player in the league, is getting a badgered 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.760 all game and then getting pushed around and finally get 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.960 Filing's angry and throws a punch late in the game. 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.160 And you know this Dand's empty and the Post Standard, 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.919 the search paper called it a race riot, and all 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.600 of a sudden, other African Americans out of the game, boom, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.960 you know, and and and that doesn't change until Earl 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.280 comes back. So so despite the fact that role, you know, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:19.159 it would diminish his own role, he knew and understood 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.680 what was on his shoulders. You know, there's a that 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.200 that he used to talk about, that that he really 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.280 saw that he had to dress exactly right, and and 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.639 that had to carry himself exactly right, and and and 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:33.679 he had to sort of go to this level of 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.480 ethic and and and and character that most players did not. 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.440 But but one thing, one thing that I did used 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.440 to love that he used to talk about was he 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.439 said that, uh, in baseball, you know, Jackie was isolated, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.800 that that it was it was impossible to retaliate baseball 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.320 without seeing it, and that that in basketball, if somebody 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.560 gave him a hard time, he could retaliate in ways 0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.960 that no one saw, that that there were a way 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:01.600 if you know that, as he used to say that 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.440 I could set up kick just right, and and uh 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.080 that would make my point. But but um, you know, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.879 he also used to talk about that that he felt 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.919 like there was a higher level of education in basketball, 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.200 more guys have gone to college, and that and that, um, 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.360 there was a certain benefit of that, and and um, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.919 that there had been some integration in basketball throughout the 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.920 forties where there had basically been zero in baseball. But still, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:33.680 I think, I think in the in the end, um, 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.040 for all his honesty, the simple truth is that the 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.000 guy took this unbelievable weight on his shoulders right and 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.359 and handled it with this kind of greats and dignity 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.120 and mentor younger players, and and at this critical moment 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:52.800 in American history, Um, um, you know, transcended the times, right, 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.320 broke those barriers. I mean, you know, I know, I'm 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.000 I'm you know I'm hopelessly in the bucket for um, 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.800 but I think you was a great and important American, 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.399 all right. So that brings us to the end. To 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:12.000 the close of another episode of Sixer's History, the podcast, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.359 like to express our gratitude and thanks to Sean Cursed 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.920 for taking time out on his vacation so that man 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.679 really wants to talk about Earl Lloyd. He was on 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.600 vacation and had no problem getting on the phone with me, 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.840 So I'd like to thank him doubly for taking time 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.560 out of his hard earned vacation to talk about Earl Lloyd, 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.359 his good friend at Basketball Hall of Famer. But as 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.280 Sean said at the end, there really a great American. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.040 I think if you get the chance, buy the book 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.600 or get it from your library. It's called Moonfixer. But 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:47.760 thank you' all for listening to the podcast again to 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.840 get a little hint of what Earl was all about.