1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. The toughest job I 2 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: ever had, I guess physically was when I was growing up. 3 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: I fancied myself a football player, and in order to 4 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: stay in shape during the off season, I will cut wood. 5 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: This ranged from felling trees to also splitting the wood 6 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: with generally a sledgehammer, a wedge, a mall, and an 7 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: axe and stacking it up. Hardest job physically that I've 8 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: ever had in my life. But what comes into play 9 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: is the fact that I would have to use a chainsaw, 10 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 1: and I learned to use one at an early age, 11 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: and it is a tool to be respected. Today, I'm 12 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about a case that's 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: come to my attention involving a chainsaw. But this chainsaw 14 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: was used and purposed in a way that not many 15 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: people would think of. Today, we're going to talk about 16 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: the death and dismemberment of Margaret Craig. I'm Joseph Scott 17 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks. At this point in my life, 18 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: my grandparents have long since been deceased, and with the 19 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: passing of each one, I aggrieved immensely. I loved my 20 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: grandparents dearly. On both sides, and many people can identify 21 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: with that. But never in my wildest dreams did I 22 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: ever imagine that I would be having a discussion with you, 23 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: Dave Mack, about a death involving a grandmother who was 24 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: apparently at some point in time really loved by the 25 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: two alleged perpetrators, and in that discussion we would talk 26 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: about chainsaw dismemberment and disposal of a body using a 27 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: barbecue grill. Have you ever heard of anything like this before? 28 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: No, this is a whole new level of discussed depravity. 29 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: I don't know when. I don't know when things changed, 30 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 2: and maybe they didn't. Maybe this has always gone on 31 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: and we just never heard about it. But at no 32 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: point in time in my life did it ever occur 33 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: to me that we might have a story about loved ones. 34 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: And you mentioned how much you care about your grandparents. 35 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 2: This is three generations where the victim is at the top, 36 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: she's a beloved grandmother and her own daughter and granddaughter 37 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: used the chainsaw and the grill. You can figure out 38 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: the rest. And we're not talking about you and I 39 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 2: out camping teaching our grandchildren how to live off the 40 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: land during a camping weekend. 41 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: Or not you begin to think about, well, how do 42 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: you go about disposing of human remains? There are a 43 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: multitude of ways this is done. You're thinking in the 44 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: context of, well, how do we do it respectfully? Well, 45 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: most people, their default position is always simply prepping the 46 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: body to a certain degree and burying the body. Right, 47 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: But it does seem and I've made this comment both 48 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: on body bags and I'll continue to make it on 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: media platforms. I don't know if there is some kind 50 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: of desensitization that's taking place. I do not recall having 51 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: talked about so many dismemberment cases, and it's not just 52 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: this one, it is all across the country. I mean, 53 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: it seems like if people will go back and kind 54 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: of look at our catalog on body bags, you'll see 55 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: that there's a number of these cases there that have 56 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: occurred in recent history, certainly in true crime. It just 57 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: seems like that it's coming about. And what's troubling about 58 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: it is that there is I think I use the 59 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: term a callous and I mean that in a physical sense. 60 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: We think about we developed callouses on our hands, and 61 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: how appropriate since we're mentioned in my opening about taking 62 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: down trees and splitting them and that sort of thing, 63 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: and I had these huge calluses on my hands. You 64 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: developed these hands in this kind of work, but there's 65 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: a callous It seems as though that people that might 66 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: have thought about this in the past are now crossing 67 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: over that boundary and going into this very dark area 68 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: where they have a comfort. In many of these cases we've 69 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: discussed with applying an instrument to a body and taking 70 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: it apart piece by piece, and we've covered all methodologies, 71 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: everythings from hack saws to just kitchen knives, cutlery, those 72 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: sorts of things. We begin to break it down categories. 73 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: I think to this point in our library, this is 74 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: the first chainsaw case that we've covered. But it just 75 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: seems as though that people have a comfort with this. 76 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: Now it's not just about killing. Now, how do we 77 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: go about taking apart the body. That's why when you 78 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: said that it's at a whole other level, it truly is, 79 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: and it's demonstrated through this because you think about a 80 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: perpetrator that kill somebody and then they want to put 81 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: as much distance between their person and the remains of 82 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: the deceased as they possibly can. How many times over 83 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: the years that we covered cases where people will just 84 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: kill somebody in their runaway right, and even in familial 85 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: homicides where you've got family members, which we do in 86 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: Ms Craig's case, you have people that kill a family 87 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: member and they'll try to get out of there as 88 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: quickly as possible. This goes to another level because now 89 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: you're thinking, not only are you killing an individual, but 90 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: you're going to spend time with them, and not just 91 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: a short period of time day. You're going to spend 92 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: time with this individual with their remains in order to 93 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: dispose of them. And what the process us was here 94 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: in kind of the timeline and how everything worked out. 95 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: It was amazing to me because these two women that 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: are allegedly associated with this homicide and dismemberment and attempted 97 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: destruction of these remains, it was a tedious process. A 98 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: chainsaw and a grill. That's two things that leave a 99 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: remnant behind. With a chainsaw, you're talking about if you've 100 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: never used one. And the thing that happens with a 101 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: chainsaw when you're applying it to a big piece of 102 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: wood is that you'll get sawdust all over you. Now, 103 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: you can't avoid it, it's going to happen. You're gonna 104 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: have it in your hair, You're gonna have it an 105 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: on your arms, you're gonna have any clothing, It'll be everywhere. 106 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: And of course with a grill, all of us have 107 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: pleasant memories. I would think of cooking out. And that 108 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: smell kind of permeates the air, doesn't it. You get 109 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: in your nostrils. Maybe it's in your hair particularly, it's 110 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: this thing that reminds you of seasons. Summer comes to mind. 111 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: But in this case, Lord have mercy. I can't imagine 112 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: was going through their minds, the perpetrators in this particular case, 113 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: when they allegedly did this deed. 114 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: You've got a seventy one year old Margaret Craig. She 115 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: has a daughter, Candace Craig, who is forty four. And 116 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: Margaret Craig has a granddaughter, the daughter of Candace Craig, 117 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: nineteen year old Selia Hardy. So we have a woman 118 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: who is beloved by her neighbors. When a neighbor realized 119 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: that he hadn't spoken to her in several days, he 120 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 2: called police. Now I'm guessing here that he probably went 121 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: next door because the mother, rather Candace Craig and her daughter, Celia, 122 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: they were both there at the home. And I'm guessing 123 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: that this neighbor probably knocked on the door, Hey what's 124 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: going on? Hadn't seen your mom in a while? As 125 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: you Okay, I kind of imagine that. I'm not saying 126 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: it happen. I'm just thinking, because I can't imagine when 127 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: you know people in the house next door that are there, 128 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: but you don't see the one person you know you 129 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: expect to see there, that your first call is not 130 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: going to be to the police. You would go next 131 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: door and see, hey, what's going on. Apparently, for whatever reason, 132 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: he calls police. Having talked to my neighbor in several days, 133 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: would you mind doing a welfare check? So I think 134 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: that the neighbor knew something was up. 135 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: All of us have had experience with good and bad neighbors. 136 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: I bet everybody that is within the sound of my 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: voice can identify with that. And sometimes you have the 138 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: good neighbors. Right. We always think about the negative, But 139 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: there are those people that you live adjacent to that 140 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: you have a warm greeting for, you know, the old 141 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: idea of leaning on the fence and talking to your 142 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: neighbor and just but and you learn a lot about people. Two, 143 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: what their health conditions, are you understand if they're debilitated 144 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: in any way, if people are regularly coming to visit 145 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: them or their habits. She's always going out to get 146 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: her mail, maybe she cuts her own grass, maybe she 147 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: works in her garden. And when you don't see that 148 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: sends up a red flag for you. 149 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: And I'm guessing because of the fact that he picked 150 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: up a phone and called nine to one one, that 151 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: there was enough there to make him worried. So and 152 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: by the way, I'm blessed to live in a neighborhood 153 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: where we know our neighbors, and we have an elderly 154 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: neighbor that we've lived near for twenty something years, and 155 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: so we do keep up with her. She's wonderful, but 156 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: when we don't see her for a couple of days, 157 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 2: we do reach out to make sure everything's okay. So 158 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 2: here we are. It's Friday afternoon, one point thirty in 159 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: the day and officers show up at the house of 160 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: Margaret Craig, knock on the door. Margaret Craig's daughter greets 161 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: them at the front door. Candace Craig and the police say, hey, 162 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: neighbor called, hasn't seen your mom for a while would 163 00:09:58,840 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: you mind if we come in and take a look. 164 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: Got nothing to hide here? Come on in. Now, what 165 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 2: kind of mindset do you have when you know what's 166 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: in the basement, You know what's in there, But sure, 167 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: come on in. Police, she's fine. Look around, you know 168 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: she's not fine. You think they could come up with 169 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: some other story of she went to visit a relative, 170 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: you know, any number of things other than well, come 171 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: on in. But that's what she said. So police come in, 172 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: They look around a little bit, and they go downstairs. 173 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: Police say that as they went downstairs towards the basement, 174 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: they smelled the odor of decomposition and simultaneously see blood 175 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: near three trash bags. How quickly does the odor of 176 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: decomposition arrive after the death of someone. 177 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you're talking about plastic trash bags, 178 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: I don't think that people really realize how plastic impacts 179 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,719 Speaker 1: biological substances, and talk about this actually quite a bit 180 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: in crime scene and investigation. How we try very hard 181 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: not to package things in plastic. We prefer paper. Think 182 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 1: about when we were kids and you went to the 183 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: grocery store and there were nothing but paper bags, and 184 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: they have a particular smell to them, don't they. I 185 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: still remember that, but yeah, you know, and nowadays everything is. 186 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: Plastic, right used to wrap me in paper? 187 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: They actually did as a matter of fact, and this 188 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: is kind of a ghoulish aside. When I first started 189 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: working in the morgue, we had butcher paper in the morgue. 190 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: That's how we would prepare bodies after we had done autopsy. 191 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: We had huge, massive rolls of butcher paper and we 192 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: would wrap the bodies in butcher paper. Body bags were 193 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: considered to be a luxury, so you'd wrap them in 194 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: the butcher paper in the funeral home would come by, 195 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: picked them up and place them in there. And the 196 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: thing about plastic is, you know you're talking about plastic bags, 197 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: is that it's almost like putting a biological specimen in 198 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: a hot house because you think about the bag sweating 199 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: heat and that moisture speed up the process. Actually when 200 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: body parts are placed into a plastic bag, and so 201 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: it promotes decomposition, and with decomposition, what do you get? 202 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: You get a foul odor. Can you imagine being this 203 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: police officer or officers that show up at this scene 204 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: and they walk down there, they see the bags, they 205 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: see what they believe is blood. But Dave, here's another 206 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: little nugget. They looked down on the floor and they 207 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: saw they probably didn't actually recognize it, but they thought 208 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: that it might be brain matter. And so you're looking 209 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: at that element in addition to that. So back to 210 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: the initial question first. With bodies, many times you're first alert. 211 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: And this is used as a literary device in movies. 212 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: People will say, what's that smell? But that's the truth. 213 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: It's actually one of those things you see in entertainment 214 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: that is reality smell decomposing bodies many times long before 215 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: you ever put eyes on them. I remember being under 216 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: a house in particular, where a grandson had killed his 217 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: grandmother and buried her underneath the house. And we were 218 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: under this thing trying to excavate the body, and we 219 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: didn't see the body. It took us hours to excavate 220 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: this area, you know, and I'm in the stoopid position 221 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: the entire time. It's really hot, it's down here in 222 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: the Deep South. I smelled her the remains rather for 223 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: a couple of hours before I ever laid eyes on her. 224 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: That's how powerful this is. 225 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, John Wayne Gacy buried bodies under his house. 226 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: I know, And what did he have under his house? 227 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: It remember the sump pump or I can't remember. It 228 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: backed up. And so when those investigators, when they pulled 229 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: those floorboards up in that environment, they were essentially in 230 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: this muck with these floating remains where he was trying 231 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: to bury everything. So you see the plastic, and I 232 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: think about that, and I think about probably what they were. 233 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying that you would not have smelled 234 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: decomposing body without plastic. You still would have. But when 235 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: you begin to place things into plastics like this, it 236 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: prompts breaking down. And the fact that this individual that 237 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: answered the door allegedly felt comfortable enough to say, yeah, 238 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: come on in, yeah, come on in, Yeah, Yeah, we've 239 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: got nothing to hide here. 240 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And to back up, all right, when police arrive 241 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: and I said, the daughter allegedly here. Because this has 242 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: not been adjudicated, we have seventy one year old Margaret 243 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: Craig is the deceased. We do know that we know 244 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: her daughter, Candace Craig, is forty four and she was there. 245 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: And we know that Celia Hardy, nineteen year old victim's 246 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: granddaughter of Candace Craig. Now the police arrive, They go downstairs. 247 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: They say they smell the odor of decomposition. They see 248 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: blood near trash bags. Now, they had one of the 249 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: bags that wasn't sealed and they were able to look 250 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: in that without you know, it was obvious without touching, 251 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: moving or anything. And they noticed things that appeared to 252 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: them to be the brain matter and things like that 253 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: of a body. So they start going back up the stairs. 254 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: They know they've got to call in forensics. They got 255 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: to call a team in here. And as they're going 256 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: up the stairs, well to back up. When they were 257 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: going down the stairs, one of the police officers noted, hey, 258 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: there's a knife ray here. It was just on the stairs, 259 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: and on the way back up the stairs the knife 260 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: was gone. To most people, you would think going down 261 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: you see a knife, and coming up it's gone. And 262 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: the only person here is the woman who allowed you 263 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: in the house. She's got something to hide. So now 264 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: they begin the process of figuring out what took place. 265 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, this is where everything falls apart or 266 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: comes together, depending on your point of view. So, Joe, 267 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: when this happens and police call for I don't know 268 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: if you call for backup or whatever, but you've got 269 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: police officers who were there to do a welfare check. 270 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: Within a matter of minutes, they're faced with a gruesome 271 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: smell in sight. Who do they call? Do they call 272 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: forensics right away? 273 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah they would. And the person that actually made 274 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: the determination that they were dealing with human remains, they're 275 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: framing them as a forensic investigator. I'm imagining that this 276 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: is probably somebody from the m's office up in Maryland. 277 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: They don't have corner system. They have medical examers system. 278 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: And I've actually done training up in Baltimore with some 279 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: of these folks. 280 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 2: Is there a big difference between a medical examiner and 281 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: a corner. 282 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: There are corners are lay lay people most of the time, 283 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: and they're mighty fine corners that are out there that 284 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: are highly trained and very professional what they do. But 285 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: they're elected officials and depend upon the state. You know, 286 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: they'll come from all walks of life. But with medical 287 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: examiners and medical examiner systems, you're going to have obviously 288 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: a physician that's the boss, a forensic pathologist, but you're investigators. 289 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: You go places like New York, believe it or not, 290 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: people don't realize this. You go like New York for instance, 291 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: and other jurisdictions, the investigators that they have will actually 292 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: be physician assistants or nurse practitioners. So these people are 293 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: highly trained from a medical perspective and from a pathology perspective. 294 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: I want to back up a little bit. One of 295 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: the most terrifying issues with this. You mentioned that knife 296 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: that had been on the stairs, and when I teach 297 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: crime scene investigation to my students at university, I try 298 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: to let them know, particularly those that are going to 299 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: be police officers that are just coming into the field 300 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: or think they're going to be, you never allow anybody 301 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: to follow you into a location that you're searching that 302 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: is not part of your team or this is not 303 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: a police officer. For all we know, the individual could 304 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: have picked up that knife and buried it in the 305 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: cobs neck, right. 306 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: I wondered the same thing. Did they freak out when 307 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: they realized the knife was gone? Or did they tie 308 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: or main calum to figure out what happened? We don't know. 309 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: They didn't really say. 310 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't know at this point, Tom, And 311 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: it's speculative on our part. But here's the problem. They're 312 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: going on a welfare check who in the world would 313 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: ever expect to find a grandmother that has been dismembered and, 314 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: as we'll find out, partially consumed by fire in the 315 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: basement of this home. That's why our working philosophy is 316 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: that every death is a homicide until we can prove otherwise. 317 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: My kids make fun of me for this. I've never 318 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: been a fan of doing puzzles. Everybody thinks that. I 319 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: guess for some reason, because I was a forensic investigator. 320 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: I enjoyed doing things like puzzles. Did you also know 321 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: I got to tell you this, Dave, and people will 322 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: find this kind of interesting. Did you know that I 323 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: have played clue since I was nine? I think? Did 324 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: you know I have never won a game of Clue? 325 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: I never have. It's just it's one of those things 326 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: and I find it tedious. I don't know why it is. 327 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: But when we're talking about this case with miss Craig, 328 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: this is a puzzle in both a literal and a 329 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: figurative way. 330 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: We know when police got there for their welfare check 331 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 2: and fairly quickly on figured out something Haines had taken 332 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 2: place and made the call for experts to come in. 333 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: They separated the mother Candace Craig, who's forty four, and 334 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: her daughter, Salia Hardy, nineteen, And while Candace Craig didn't 335 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 2: volunteer a lot of information to police, they read them 336 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 2: their rights. You have the right to remain silent, but 337 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: Celia Hardy said, fine, I want to talk. And it 338 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 2: was nineteen year old Salia Hardy, the granddaughter of the victim, 339 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: daughter of the alleged perpetrator of the crime, who actually 340 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: gave us all the information we know of what took place. 341 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 2: And what she told me police is that she heard 342 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: an argument taking place between her mother and her grandmother, 343 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: and her grandmother was telling Margaret Craig, the victim, was 344 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 2: telling Candace Craig, suspect that she was going to call 345 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 2: police because her credit card had been used by Salia Hardy, 346 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: the nineteen year old granddaughter of the victim, and she 347 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: was mad it was done without her approval and mother 348 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: and daughter were having a big argument about it. And 349 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: it was when Candace Craig, forty four years old, tells 350 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 2: her mother she ain't calling the cops about this, that 351 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: Celia Hardy claimed she went to sleep and when she 352 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 2: woke up the next morning, she knew they had they 353 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: had been fighting. Next morning, she wakes up and there's 354 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: a blue tub in her room containing the now deceased 355 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: seventy one year old Margaret Craig, meaning she can't tell 356 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: us what took place during or after the fight. She 357 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: can only tell us that when she woke up, Grandma 358 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: was dead and in a tub. And then she begins 359 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: the story of the chainsaw, the knives, and the barbecue grill. 360 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 2: So when police get it down to this point where 361 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: they now know that they have their victim and alleged suspect, 362 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 2: how did they dig into this to determine what was 363 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: used first, the chainsaw the knife? Because that seems to 364 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: me like it would matter. And again it goes back 365 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: to what you said at the very beginning. Why do 366 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 2: we seem to have more of these types of dismemberment stories. 367 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: The woman was already dead. 368 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: I have no idea. At some point in time, you 369 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: and I are going to sit down, We're going to 370 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: begin to log these because there's a pattern here. I 371 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: see it. I'm referring to dismemberment cases. But first off, 372 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: this seems highly disorganized. And when I say that, I 373 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: mean like when they talk about these kind of organized 374 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: and disorganized kinds of crimes. It seems like something that 375 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: would be This is not a methodically planned kind of 376 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: thing where you've got everything laid out, you know how 377 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: you're going to do it. Some grand plan has gone 378 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,479 Speaker 1: in to action. Here, you lure a person in, you 379 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: take their life. Still, to this point, they have not 380 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: released actually what the cause of death is. And I 381 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: don't know if that goes to their desire not to 382 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: release that information or if it goes to how much 383 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: confusion might exist. I know this. I know that when 384 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: police did this initial walk through at the scene, one 385 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: of the things that was kind of ominous that they 386 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: noticed there you had a case, a chainsaw case, then 387 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: you had a chainsaw. How exactly do you determine in 388 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: the morgue, for instance, when you're examining these remains, what 389 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: came first. I'm not trying to weasel out of this question, 390 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: but that's very difficult to answer without more data. I 391 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: will tell you this the ferocity of a chainsaw, and 392 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: just for people that are not necessarily up to speed 393 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: no pun intended, what speed a chainsaw actually works at 394 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: or functions at. A chainsaw roughly moves at about eighty 395 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: to ninety feet per second. That is the chain itself 396 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: going around the saw bar, which is what they call 397 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: the saw bar, is what the chain is actually hooked to, 398 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: and that translates roughly into about fifty five miles per hour. 399 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: All right, just envision that just for a second. So 400 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: if you think about your tire spinning on the road 401 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: as it's conveying you down the road, that is the rate. 402 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: Now that can increase because they have variable speed. You 403 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: can pull a trigger on it. You know, it'll speed up, 404 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: it'll slow down, that sort of thing. And it has 405 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: to because it has to generate enough speed in order 406 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: to cut through these surfaces. And you think about primarily 407 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: with chainsaws, think about going through wood. Here's another interesting 408 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: kind of side about chainsaws is that the blade, if 409 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: you want to call it a blade, it's actually multiple 410 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: blades or teeth that a chainsaw has. When they hit 411 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: the surface of a olid object, they begin to kind 412 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: of chew through it. And it's not precision, man, I'm 413 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: just telling you. When you look at this, you can 414 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: kind of see, particularly when you're going through these fleshy 415 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: sides like this, you're going through soft tissue. Then you 416 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: hit bone, it literally tears. It tears the skin as 417 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: it's going through, but it goes at such an incredible 418 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: rate it slices through it like butter. One of my 419 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: big questions is, as the chainsaw is being used on 420 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: this Craig's remains, I'm thinking, did the perpetrators, the alleged 421 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: perpetrators in this case, did they suddenly have this idea 422 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: that the remains of or the particular remains of their 423 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: loved one are being deposited on them? Because, as I 424 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: said earlier, you know my experience were using chainsaws. You 425 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: can't escape sawdust. How much more so with a chainsaw 426 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: where it's going through multiple layers of tissue. You're talking 427 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: about skin, you're talking about muscle, you're talking about sinew, bone, 428 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: the bone dust. Oh and by the way, we've got blood. 429 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: There's got to be blood everywhere. The human body has 430 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: a lot of blood. 431 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it would be you know, we talk about 432 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: this idea of cast off and most people think about 433 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: cast off where And I always describe it when I'm 434 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: teaching as dipping a taking up paintbrush and dipping it 435 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: into a pail of paint, right and kind of slinging 436 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: it over your head, you know, you get it on 437 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: the ceiling or on the wall. I've seen perpetrators that 438 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: actually have it down their back in a diagonal pattern. 439 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: But with the speed at which a chainsaw moves, you're 440 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: going to see this almost fine histamine like deposition. And 441 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: one of the ways we measure velocity on blood stains 442 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: is we categorize it rather we have low velocity, we 443 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: have medium velocity, then we have high velocity. I would 444 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 1: think that with chainsaws you're going to see some high 445 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: velocity deposition, and most of the time high velocity deposition 446 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,959 Speaker 1: is associated with gunfire. So just so people understand and 447 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: kind of get an idea as to what it looks like, 448 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: the lower the velocity, the bigger the droplet, And that's 449 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: kind of how we figure this out. It's not rocket science, 450 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: that's kind of how we figure this out. So if 451 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: you have high velocity blood staining that's going on or deposition, 452 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: it will look very tiny. It almost looks many times 453 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: like sprayed tomato juice or sprayed grape juice, where you 454 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: get these fine little droplets. If you put a magnifying 455 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: glass over it, you'll see that they are actually individual 456 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: little droplets. But they're coming off at such a high 457 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: rate of speed that the droplets themselves are very tiny, 458 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: very very tiny. And that's kind of how we delineate 459 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: in this world of interpretation of blood staining about what 460 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 1: went on and in this environment when you're talking about 461 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: the dismemberment of human remains using a chainsaw, David's going 462 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: to be everywhere. It would be everywhere, so the more 463 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: like when you change your position, this is one of 464 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: the things that happens with chainsaws. As you change positions 465 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: with the chainsaw relative to the target, you're going to 466 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: get another pattern that will develop. So you can have 467 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: these streaked patterns that are kind of interlacing on all 468 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: of these surfaces where just imagine you've got big x's 469 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: everywhere or almost like these asterises. They're very linear, but 470 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: you might have them overlapping depending upon how much you're 471 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: moving that chainsaw blade around, and it can be quite confusing. 472 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: You'll come up with a very unique pattern. 473 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 2: Investigators did say, you know, they found human remains on 474 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: the chainsaw when they seized it. But I was thinking, Joe, 475 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: I'm trying to picture the order. Okay, we know about 476 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 2: the welfare check, we know police show up, all right, 477 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 2: Cannice Craig allows police in. They look around the odor 478 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 2: of decomposition, They see blood around trash bags, glancing into 479 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: a trash bag, Hey, I think we see brain matter 480 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: in here. They calling the experts who identify the body 481 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 2: parts in the bag are in fact human, and they 482 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 2: talk to the nineteen year old daughter, so Leah Hardy, 483 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 2: who then explains what took place leading them to this 484 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: moment in time. But what we don't have is the 485 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 2: order in which it took place. And I was thinking 486 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: that based on the fact there was a knife. I'm 487 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: thinking that being I'm assuming that these suspects here are 488 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 2: amateurs at this, that they don't regularly dismember bodies. We 489 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: don't have any proof of that, but I'm assuming that 490 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 2: we have a body. We got to get rid of this, 491 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: and in that panic you mentioned, panic chaos that they 492 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: grab a knife. We'll just cut her up and we'll 493 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,479 Speaker 2: dispose of her. And then they realize one, there's blood 494 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: everywhere too. This knife really isn't cutting through. This is 495 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: a lot tougher than we thought. Hey, there's a chainsaw 496 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: over here. And I'm putting all this together in my 497 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 2: head and I'm thinking only because of the job that 498 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: I do in reporting and that I've talked to you about, 499 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: do I know what really is taking place there? What 500 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 2: these two women are finding out about a deceased body 501 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: and what is coming out and what Because they said 502 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: they found cleaning supplies downstairs, meaning they had a plan, 503 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: We're going to dismember, clean up and get rid. They 504 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: had the trash bags, but it was a much bigger 505 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: task than they anticipated. Allegedly, it seems. 506 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: There's really no methodology here where, you know, if you 507 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: think about how you would go about it scientifically. You know, 508 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: if we were in the morgue and we were having 509 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: to dismember a remain, which we have done and which 510 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: still goes on, there's certain times when that's required, you 511 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: have to take parts of bodies off. There's a methodology 512 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: to it, and certainly there's the appropriate tools for the 513 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: task that are constructed for this. So you're faced with 514 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: this idea, and I love what you said about the knife. 515 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: This is not getting it here because it's insufficient to 516 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: the task. Okay, Well, let's leap from here and let's 517 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: go to chainsaw. Well, now you're going to the opposite 518 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: end of the spectrum, because if you think you had 519 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: trouble wielding the knife, now you've got this mechanical device 520 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: that is going to wreak utter havoc on the target. 521 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: And now you've really got a mess. And so, oh 522 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: my gosh, what do we do now? And you're faced 523 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: with this, You're faced with this if you are a 524 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: perpetrator and I mean that in a blanket statement over 525 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: any kind of case like this of dismemberment, What am 526 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: I going to do with these remains? If this case 527 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: couldn't be any more ghastly? I think the fact that 528 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: there was an attempt somewhere along the way to render 529 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: down the body using heat, according to the authorities and 530 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: the solicitor, the prosecutor in particular, up there a grill 531 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: came into play, Dave. Where like a grill that we 532 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: would use to barbecue with or to cook with outdoors, 533 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, with our family. I think about that with this, 534 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: how many times had that grill been used over the years, 535 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: perhaps for celebrations, you know, to have a meal with 536 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: a family. You're cooking hot dogs and hamburgers. They're going 537 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: to use a grill to get rid of missus Craig's remains, 538 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: And there was also a brushfire that according to a 539 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: couple of witnesses apparently they thought that they saw human 540 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: remains being placed into the brushfire, and it was just 541 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: inside the there's like a big wooded area back behind 542 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: this home. So allegedly you've got these two elements that 543 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: are involved as well. So it's not just a matter 544 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: of trying to take apart the body which is all 545 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: over the board here, because I got to back up again, 546 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: brain matter. How in the world did you get brain matter? 547 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: Did you apply the chainsaw to the head in order 548 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 1: to take it apart? 549 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: Would you be tasked with trying to determine why the 550 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: brain matter was on the floor, because I think that 551 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: would have a lot to do with the crime that 552 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 2: the people are alleged to have committed. 553 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and because you have brain matter, you have a 554 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: specific anatomical element that you're going to want to examine 555 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: very very carefully in this case, Dave, and that is 556 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: obviously the skull. One discipline that would come into this 557 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: case that seems as though it is probably being visited 558 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: far more frequently than any other time in the past, 559 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: is going to be your tool mark expert. Because the 560 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: tool mark expert will actually be able to examine any 561 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: of these markings on the bone in particular relative to 562 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: this type of chainsaw. Okay, and the knife too as well, 563 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: but with the chainsaw in particular. And when you go 564 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: to places like say, for instance, the FBI is you know, 565 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: the FBI, in their forensic lab, they will have access 566 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: to probably just about every kind of chainsaw that there 567 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: is out there, and that's their tool mark section. And 568 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: what they will do is or they'll go purchase one 569 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: that's similar to the one that was recovered at the scene, 570 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: and they will probably get wood. They will do a 571 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: test on wood to see what kind of tool markets 572 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: left behind by said chainsaw that is of the same 573 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: manufacturer and same type on the wood, and does it 574 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: compare up to what they're seeing on the bone. 575 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: That's just mine numbing. I had no idea, Joe, no idea. 576 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, when you're going to move forward with a 577 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: case like this and you try to figure it out, 578 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: the one thing that is left behind that ultimately is 579 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: going to have to speak to this jury is going 580 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: to be the science. 581 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: As it stands right now. The charges in this case. 582 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 2: Candace Craig, forty four year old daughter of the victim 583 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: and mother of the other suspect, Candace Craig, is charged 584 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 2: with first and second degree murder. Her daughter, Celia Hardy, 585 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: is charged with accessory after the fact, and both are 586 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: in the custody of the Department of Corrections. 587 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: H I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.