1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Since I was a 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: young boy, I've been fascinated by true crime. And one 3 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: of the first cases that ever kind of caught my 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: attention involved a serial killer over in England that was 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: eventually hung, uh executed, if you will, for some deaths 6 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: that he had perpetrated. He attempted to get rid of 7 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: those bodies with acid. The case I'm going to talk 8 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: to you about today is unbelievable and it involves acid 9 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: as well. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body 10 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: Backs Back with me again today is my friend Jackie Howard, 11 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie tell 12 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: us about this case, Joe. The case today is the 13 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: death of Joel and Lisa Guy. They were planning their 14 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: last family Thanksgiving in their Knox home. The Guys were 15 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: planning to retire and had sold the home. They were 16 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: moving to the family homestead in Upper East Tennessee. Lisa 17 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: was still working, but her co workers had planned a 18 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: retirement party for her. But when Lisa didn't show up 19 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: and didn't answer her home telephone or cell phone, they 20 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: called the Knox County Sheriff's department for a wellness check. 21 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: The detectives that went to the home knocked on the 22 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: front door, rang the doorbell, but there was no response. 23 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: When co workers were still unable to reach Lisa, they 24 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: called the Sheriff's department again for the second time in 25 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: about an hour, and at that time police were able 26 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: to enter the home through the garage door. They found 27 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: an unlocked vehicle with a rodge door opener inside and 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: used it to enter the home. As soon as they 29 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: entered the home, they were hit with an intense heat. 30 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: The stove was on, there was a strange chemical odor 31 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: was very overbearing, and at that point they realized something 32 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: was very very wrong. As they headed up the stairs, 33 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: they found large amounts of blood and a scene that 34 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: just became more gruesome. Yes they did, Jackie. Can you 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: can you even begin to imagine You're kind of going 36 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: about your daily business as a police officer, patrolling the streets, uh, 37 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, trying to look out for the people in 38 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: the community, and then you get summoned to this location, uh, 39 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, any kind of domestic environment. And it's it's 40 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: well known, this has been said over and over and 41 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: over again, how dangerous and domestic squabble or problem is 42 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: for any police officer to walk into. But you get there, 43 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: they have to make their way into the house and 44 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: then suddenly it's not necessarily that it's what you see initially. 45 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: It's the fact that as you open this door there's 46 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of heat that just kind of rushes 47 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: out at you and and kind of slaps you in 48 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: the face. Um and it is rather shocking. And then 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: coupled with that is this overwhelming chemical odor that to 50 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: some has I think given the indication that it would 51 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: make you light headed, because I do know this. As 52 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: as the day progressed, the police suddenly realized that they 53 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: had a need out at the scene for their investigators 54 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: to show up in uh in protective gear you know 55 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: that had like respirators wearing these on their back because 56 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: the environment that they were entering into was so very hostile. Jack. 57 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: As the police officers investigated, what they found were dismembered 58 00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: body parts. Joel Gray's hands were found in a hallway, 59 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: and they found the mother's head boiling in a pot 60 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: on the stove. The father's torso was in a plastic 61 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: tote submerged in a chemical bath. So I'm not really 62 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: sure where to start, Joe, the dismemberment or the chemicals 63 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: trying to be used to dispose of the evidence. I 64 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: think you you just pose the same question that that 65 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: the investigators uh probably posed themselves. You know, where where 66 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: in the world do we start with this case? Because 67 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: not only do you have this this chemical smell that's 68 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: coming out and it's kind of affecting your ability to 69 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: probably even think clearly, UH, because you're you're worried, You're 70 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: you're worried about your own personal safety in this environment. UH. 71 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: Heat is going to make you uncomfortable, and then you're 72 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: kind of shocked in your mind's eye with this uh, 73 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: with this blood bath that is a sin se present 74 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: at the scene. You've got areas of what would be 75 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: consistent with the body having been present in a specific spot, 76 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: bleeding out or maybe having the blood drained from it. 77 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: There's a large kind of damp area of focal areas 78 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: we refer to it on the carpet surface, and then 79 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: you have dynamic blood staining on the walls as well. 80 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: Most of it looks like it's low velocity perhaps or 81 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: kind of drippings that are on not only the handrails, 82 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: but also kind of uh seeping down the walls in 83 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: specific locations, and then you know, you come across, you 84 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: come across a pair of hands, Jackie. Can can you 85 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: just imagine just for a second the thought of walking 86 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: up you're in this you know home. And remember I've 87 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: said this before on body bags. For us, as forensics 88 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: people were always having to view the abnormal in the 89 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: context of the normal. This is not like some a 90 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: slaughter house or something like that. This is this is 91 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: a domicile that family actually dwells, they live in, there's 92 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: family pictures about, there's evidence of of life being lived 93 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: in this environment. Here you are in this blood saturated area, 94 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: horrible odors and dismembered body parts all over the place. 95 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: So it is certainly herculean task I think probably for 96 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: the investigators to begin to kind of work their way 97 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: through it. And you know what's kind of striking about 98 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: this case is the fact that you know, most of 99 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: the time, forensic pathologists do not come out to crime scenes, 100 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: and in this particular case, you had a situation where 101 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: there was a potential for what we refer to as 102 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: co mingling of remains, where you have more than one 103 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: body and the parts are dissected out, they're lying about. 104 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 1: There's remains, you know, dissected limbs that are lying about 105 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: the house. And so the forensic pathologists they felt as 106 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: though they needed them out there to kind of to 107 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: help guide the investigators through a scene so that they 108 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: could process it appropriately, so they could account literally for 109 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: each and every remain that they were finding at the scene. 110 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: So the acid that was being used, the caustic substance 111 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: was myriadic acid. Number one, what is it? Number two? 112 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 1: What is it due to a body? And number three, 113 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: how do you determine a true cause of death after 114 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: a body has been subjected to this? The acid that 115 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: was being used is actually a diluted form of hydrochloric acid, 116 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: and it's it's the myriadic acid is actually an ascid 117 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: that's easily acquired. It's probably it's something that you can 118 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: go to any big box store and pick up. Many 119 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: times you'll find it in drain cleaners for instance. And 120 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm talking about sewer line sewer lines that have gotten 121 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: backed up. The problem is is that the individual that's 122 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: using it just you know, your every day working a 123 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: person that's going to apply this to a clog drain. 124 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: Even on the labels on these things that says, look, 125 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: you you've really got to be careful with this, because 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: this is something that's used as uh to remove corrosion, 127 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: to remove blockages and sewer lines um to Actually you 128 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: could apply it actually into the onto the floor in 129 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: your garage if you so chose to, if you have 130 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: a big oil or grease stain there, to try to 131 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: get it up. And and this isn't the worst of it. 132 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: The worst of it is the fact that there were 133 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: also other chemicals present, and the police at the time 134 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: had described this as a toxic soup because it was 135 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: not just the acid, but this was com mingled with 136 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: bleach as well as well as hydrogen peroxide. And you know, 137 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: when you think about hydrogen peroxide, one of the things 138 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: that kind of bounces around in people's minds, and it does. 139 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: You can't use it for this per is if you 140 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: have a blood stain, you can apply hydrogen peroxide to 141 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: try to get it off your clothes. And it's almost 142 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: like the individual that's putting this together is attempting to 143 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: create this kind of uh, interesting recipe that is going 144 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: to solve all of the problems we want to get 145 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: rid of blood evidence, maybe get rid of DNA, and 146 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: also we want to try to render down a human body, 147 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: and that in and of itself is no small undertaking. Okay, 148 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: So the second part of that question was, Joe, what 149 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: does this asset due to a body? Does it? It 150 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: dissolves the skin and the muscle, but what does it 151 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: due to the bone? Well, yeah, it can. You know. 152 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: First off, let let's let's talk about what it would 153 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: do to a living person if you if you contacted 154 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: this on your skin. Uh, at the very top of 155 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: the list are chemical burns. It will it will actually 156 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: blister your skin. Uh, it creates a situation where your 157 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: skin will begin to literally ulcerate. It's it's very very harmful, 158 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: not to mention you know, the noxious odors. It can 159 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: create long damage, all these things, and it is a 160 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: corrosive substance that's going to eat away any kind of 161 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: soft tissue. So once it gets down to the bone, 162 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: after the soft tissue is gone, at that point in time, 163 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: it's also going to impact the bone as well as 164 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: it begins to compromise the structural integrity of the bone 165 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: and potentially eradicate any kind of evidence that might be there. 166 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: The one um, the one thing that can prevent this 167 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: is time. You know, how quickly can you get to 168 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: the body to kind of stem stem this this chemical 169 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: change that's taking place at that point When you have 170 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: that chemical change taking place and evidence is destroyed and 171 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: the muscle structure that has been destroyed, So how do 172 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: you go about Joe finding out the cause of death? Well, 173 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: you know it's that probably from a forensic standpoint in 174 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: this particular case, one of the things that may have 175 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: happened is that this process of of compromising the tissue 176 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, uh to you know, get rid of any 177 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: evidence of injuries uh may have been uh diminished somewhat 178 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: because of the mixture. If if the individual that had 179 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: bathed these bodies in pure hydrochloric acid there ends probably 180 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: would have been better served through bathing the bodies and 181 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: pure hydrochloric acid as opposed to this kind of toxic 182 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: soup that's going on at this point in time. You're 183 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: stemming the actual chemical reaction that occurs when pure acid 184 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: is applied to the body. So you throw bleach on 185 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: top of that, you put in hydrochloric acid, and anything 186 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: else that this individual may have been applying. You're you're 187 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: creating a problem for the chemical reaction to go forward 188 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: at that point time. Now not to say that this 189 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: is a caustic, because it still has impact on the tissue, 190 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: but the acid is not being utilized to its fullest 191 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: effect because it has been diluded to this point. What 192 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: about the heat component to this Joe. When the police 193 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: officers arrived, every thermostat in the house was turned on high, 194 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: as well as space heaters throughout the house were turned 195 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: on high. What did this do? How did this affect 196 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: the bodies? And was this an attempt to cause a fire? Well, 197 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: there's one thing that you forgot to mention there. We've 198 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: also got a big pot on the stove that's boiling, 199 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: and anybody that's ever been in a kitchen that's had 200 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: a pot that's been going for a protracted period of time, 201 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: the one thing that you know is that that is 202 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: an incredible heat source, particularly in the immediate area. I 203 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: don't I don't necessarily think that this was an attempt 204 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: to burn the house down necessarily. I think that it 205 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: may be an attempt uh to speed the process of decomposition. 206 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: And that's why I love forensic science. Jackie that that's 207 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: that is plain and simple. Why I love this because 208 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: in medical legal death investigation, one of the things that's 209 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: played out in the realm of physical science that we 210 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: learned from you know, we learned physical science when we're 211 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,599 Speaker 1: very young, is that we do know that every experiment 212 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: most of the time that you engage in in school. 213 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: You remember when you get an alcohol burner or a 214 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: Bunsen burner, you turn it on and you've got that 215 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: little blue flame that's coming out and it's you know, 216 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: you're heating the mixture up. Well, this is what we 217 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: do know, is that heat will speed a process up, 218 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: and particularly decomposition. Heat uh just makes heat causes the 219 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,839 Speaker 1: pace of decomposition to increase exponentially. And a very specific 220 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: example is as you well know, I started my career 221 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: in New Lens, all right. It is a tropical subtropical environment, 222 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: and their bodies that I would examine down there for 223 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: the corner's office would begin to break down much more 224 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: quickly than say bodies and other regions of the country. 225 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: So heat does in fact impact this. I can only 226 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: imagine that that the heat was left at this level 227 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: in order to speed this process. One of the things 228 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: that sticks with me about this case is that one 229 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: of the police officers actually stated, I'm I'm paraphrasing a bit, 230 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: but they actually stated that that this scene is something 231 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: that they will never ever get out of their mind. 232 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: And I can I can understand that that you walk 233 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: into this environment and you see this much destruction, you 234 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: see this much horror, and you know, you begin to 235 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: think about what in the world went on in this house. Well, 236 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: we do know, Joe that it was brutal. Joel Guy 237 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Senior had been stabbed forty two times, but there was 238 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: much more damage done to his body. The mutilation and 239 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: dismemberment was severe. Yeah, it was Jackie, And you know 240 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: that's evidenced doubt and what you're seeing at the scene. 241 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: I've seen the crime scene photographs from this particular case, 242 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: and as I had earlier mentioned, uh, there is uh 243 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence of the blood dynamics that went 244 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: on during this event. Um. We have everything from kind 245 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: of passive blood flow, uh you know, where you get 246 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: the seepage that comes out as as a body rest 247 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: in one particular spot, and then there's kind of the 248 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: more telling blood stain that's going on where you have 249 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: contact blood that's kind of dripping down the walls, maybe 250 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: some low velocity blood uh that's kind of cast off, 251 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: if you will, and that that happens many times, would 252 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: stab injuries, and particularly when you have forty two of these, 253 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: that it would take a tremendous amount of physical energy 254 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: for a perpetrator to wield a knife forty two times 255 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: burying it in uh to an individual's body. And you know, 256 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: this is not something that's done uh in a passive 257 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: form because the person uh Joel Senior would have been 258 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: fighting back. So it's a dynamic event where you've got 259 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: wrestling that's going on, You've got reaction that's going on, 260 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: You've got an individual that's trying to fend the individual 261 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: off that's attacking them. And you know, the forensic pathologists 262 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: rightly stated that there were any number of defensive injuries 263 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: on Joel Seniors hey ends and his arms. He had 264 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: an awareness that this was actually occurring to him as 265 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: a result of these little insults that he had all 266 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: over his arms where he's trying to fend off this 267 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: attack being stabbed forty two times. We know that his lungs, liver, 268 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: and kidneys were damaged. So depending on the size of 269 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: the knife. How hard would the stabbings have to have 270 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: been or is it just depend on the size of 271 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: the knife. You know, damage that's inflicted is heavily depended 272 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: upon the position of the victim uh in relation to 273 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: the attacker. So and let me give you an example. 274 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: Let's say, for instance, an individual is charging you and 275 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: you're standing upright at this moment top the stab wound 276 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: that you would sustain in this particular posture might not 277 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: necessarily be as deep as say the following stab wounds. 278 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: When you've been forced to the floor, you're bleeding out, 279 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 1: and now the individual has leverage over you, they're lifting 280 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: the knife above their head and they're driving it into 281 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: your body. So he's got a tremendous number of injuries. 282 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, Jackie, you were talking about the lungs, 283 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: the liver, and the kidneys. And to get to the kidneys, 284 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: if you try to do this anteriorly, and of course 285 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: antirely means on the front, you would have to use 286 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: such force to get through all of the tissue because 287 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: the kidneys are oriented to the rear of the body. 288 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: So he's probably got stab wounds all over the body. 289 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: His total circumference, he's rolling around, he's writhing on the floor. 290 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: These are tremendous injuries. When it comes to his dismemberment, Joe, 291 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: his hands were severed at the wrist, his arms at 292 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: this shoulder blade, his legs at the hip, and his 293 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: right foot at the ankle. Do you believe that this 294 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: was an attempt to make the body small enough to 295 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: fit into the storage totes so that it can just 296 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: all faster. Yeah, there's a lot that we can tell 297 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: by virtue of the way this body was dismembered. Uh. 298 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: And it's interesting that the body was dismembered at these 299 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: critical joints. Uh. You know, lots of times with dismemberments, 300 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: you'll see individuals that will take sauce, for instance, and 301 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: try to go uh, say, for instance, the femur, which 302 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: is the long bone in your upper leg. They'll try 303 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: to cut across the shaft of that bone. That That's 304 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: not what this individual did. They actually went two joints 305 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: uh to try to take this body apart. We're talking 306 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: about the risks, remember that was that was famously mentioned 307 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: also the shoulders were talking about the hips and knees, 308 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. So it's easier to facilitate this. 309 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: And what happens is is that if you can get 310 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: a blade and there were several blades found in the scene, Jackie, 311 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: in addition to a pair of blood covered scissors, Uh, 312 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: you can cut through some of the connective tissue and 313 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: literally pull the body apart. At that point, of course, 314 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: it's going to take time to do this. In trying 315 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: to do this, the attempt here, I believe at least, 316 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: is to compartmentalize the body and to get it as 317 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: compact as possible to put it into this kind of 318 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: rendering Ben if you will where the body the tissue 319 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: is going to be placed into this area where you 320 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: can actually dissolve and eradicate the body. You're gonna have 321 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: to do this because we're talking about a grown man here. 322 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: He was not a small man, so you're going to 323 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: have to make him as compact as possible so that 324 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: you can bathe his body in this caustic stew. The mother, 325 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: Lisa was stabbed thirty one times. Her legs were severed 326 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: below the knee and her arms at the shoulder, and 327 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: she again had been decapitated. For lack of a better question, 328 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 1: why yeah, And that kind of interesting. Uh. You know 329 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: we know that uh Lisa, she was in fact decapitated, 330 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: and of course you know her head was actually found 331 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: in this pot on the stove where it would appear 332 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: that the individual is attempting to render down her head 333 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: VISAVI this but why her as opposed to dad? Uh? 334 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: Sometimes you know, I know that sometimes forensic psychologists will 335 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: look at mutilation of bodies and try to paint a 336 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: picture relative to uh, the psychopathology that's going on inside 337 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: somebody's head, you know, an attempt to rip somebody to 338 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: shreds and this sort of thing, and you you have 339 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: to pause, I think as an investigator, and begin to think, 340 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: is this because they're attempting to disfigure the body or 341 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: is this just uh their own economy, if you will, 342 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: to try to render it down and make it as 343 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: small as it possibly can. You know, when you take 344 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: a look at the scene, people might think, well, this 345 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: is a very ordered event. It's not. It seems kind 346 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: of haphazard. You've got, uh, an individual that has taken 347 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: out a plastic sheet, laid it on the ground, has 348 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: put the tubs on top of the plastic sheet, and 349 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: is rendering down those remains that were found in those 350 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: tubs in this solution, but yet you still have random 351 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: bits of bodies laying all over the place. There's all 352 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: kinds of blood of it, it's everywhere. And also what's 353 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: kind of unique. I watched the video of the walkthrough 354 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: of this scene, the crime scene walk through, and it's 355 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: quite horrific. Um. You'll see that there is like a 356 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: huge collection of chemicals that are literally downstairs in an 357 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: area that they had just kind of been piecemeal together. 358 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: And you'll see all kinds of different containers down there 359 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: containing everything from bleach to drain cleaner to all of 360 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: these things. So there is a level of order to it, 361 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: but there's also a disorder like, uh, it's it's kind 362 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: of randomly thrown together, and this individual is trying to 363 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: do this on the fly. Both individuals, Joe, as we've discussed, 364 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: we're stabbed multiple times and both saw injuries to their ribs. 365 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: The mother at least nine of her ribs were severed. 366 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: The dad had twelve marks on his ribs. How much 367 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: force does it take to leave that kind of damage 368 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: to a bone that still shows up after being soaked 369 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: in acid? A tremendous amount of force. Jackie Um and 370 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: you'll get these uh, they're quite fascinating to see when 371 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: you look at them on magnification. If everybody will, in 372 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: the sound of my voice, will visualize the shape of 373 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: a V a V like the letter V. And when 374 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: you're looking at a cross section of this that's what 375 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: it appears to be went on high matification. When you're 376 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: looking at the edges of these ribs, and that v 377 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: uh is the result of what's referred to as a 378 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: tool mark. That means that a single edged sharp instrument 379 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: has been inserted through the ribs. And yeah, you know, 380 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: the the caustic substance this this acid bath, if you 381 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: will combine with bleach and hydrogen peroxide and all these 382 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: other items, it might very well compromise it. You might 383 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: not be able to appreciate it as much as you 384 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: would have been if that solution had not been applied. However, 385 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: you can still appreciate it. And what's really fascinating about 386 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: this is that one of the most famous forensic anthropologists 387 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: in the country that specializes in tool mark examination on bone, Dr. 388 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: Steve Simms, was involved in this case and and gave 389 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 1: UH kind of a painted a very dark picture of 390 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: what had actually taken place. And one more thing that's 391 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: kind of significant when we begin to think about the 392 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: mother here that Dr Simms and the friends of cathologists 393 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: had noted is that Lisa's head was not neatly dissected 394 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: away from her neck. As a matter of fact, she 395 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: was decapitated as a result of what they frame as 396 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma. That gives you an indication that either 397 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: there was a tremendous amount of anger involved in this. 398 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: They're trying to maybe in a post mortem uh since 399 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: uh disfigure the body, or they got frustrated with trying 400 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: to remove the head from the neck at what's referred 401 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: to as the C one level. That's commonly that's the 402 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: vertebra that immediately supports your skull. Some people refer to 403 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: it as the atlas. And there's evidence that there was 404 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma. Into my way of thinking, um, the 405 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: individual would have started and you'd probably see tool marks 406 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: on the bone as well. They probably started with a 407 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: knife trying to cut away uh the attachments where the 408 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: head attaches to the spine. They got frustrated, and probably 409 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: more than likely they began to stomp on the back 410 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: of the head until the head was dislodged from the 411 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I don't think that I would 412 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: have ever imagine myself talking about decapitation through blunt force trauma. 413 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen a thing or two in my day. 414 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: I've seen bodies decapitated, most frequently in motor vehicle accidents. 415 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: But you know, the pathologist and the forensic anthropologists painted 416 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: such a horrible picture here, Jackie, where they're talking about 417 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma separating the head from the rest of 418 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: the body. Joe. What makes this case even more heinous 419 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: is to find out that these murders were committed by 420 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: Joel Guy Jr. Lisa and Joel seniors twenty eight year 421 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: old son. He had arrived with the family for a 422 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner, and the intention was to portray the fact 423 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: that he was headed back to Louisiana after the holiday celebration. 424 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: The sisters were planning to get in touch with him 425 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: to tell him what happened. Then the police revealed what 426 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: they had found. A backpack in the home with the 427 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: manifesto of everything that needed to be done to complete 428 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: these murders, as well as video of Joel Guy Jr. 429 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: At local stores buying an aseptic parox side band aids, 430 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: bandages to treat his own wounds from committing these murders. 431 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: What do we understand, Joe about these murders from the 432 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: details in that manifesto? What was in it? Oh? My lord, 433 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: I don't know that I'll ever be able to get 434 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: this out of my mind. You know, I've read this 435 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: several times, and you know, you sit here and you 436 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: meditate on this for a little bit, you know, when 437 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: you're trying to put this together and try to understand 438 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: what's going on in somebody's mind. This guy actually laid 439 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: this thing out. He had made notes very conscious of 440 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do. There's there's no equivocation here. 441 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: There there's no there's nothing here to say that, well, 442 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: maybe he was not gonna do this. No, he had. 443 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: He had very specific plans in order to not just kill, 444 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: but to get rid of the bodies. And he's taken 445 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: all things into consideration. And interestingly enough, the police went 446 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: onto later uh name this list as a as the 447 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: rather as the premeditation list. Those are those things that 448 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: he was considering that he would need. I'm talking about 449 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: items everything, and it ranged from everywhere from uh knives. Uh. 450 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: He identifies knives plural um and he uses the term 451 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: uh multiple. And also the fact that what's kind of 452 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: chilling about this, and this is actually one of the 453 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: first items is listed, is that he's got the word 454 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: quiet in there. Jackie. Just think about that just for 455 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: a second, when you're talking about quiet that his idea 456 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: is that to utilize a knife is going to be quieter, say, 457 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: for instance, than firing a gun. And I guess if 458 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: he was really skilled at using a knife, that would 459 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: be quite accurate. But as you had mentioned, he's actually 460 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: seen on CCTV walking into a store in order to 461 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: purchase antiseptic and bandages and all these sorts of things. 462 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: Do you know why, because like many people that wheeled 463 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: knives that he wound up cutting himself and injuring himself. 464 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: When you see the fight that senior his father put up, 465 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: the defensive injuries that the father had, this kid essentially 466 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: inflicted wounds on himself with this edged weapon. He wound 467 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: up out in himself. And this happens many times in 468 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: cases involving sharp force injury. You'll see perpetrats. That's one 469 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: of the reasons why when a suspect is arrested. Uh, 470 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: we're very very careful to take ventral views of the 471 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: hands the photographs, if you will, and then uh take 472 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: palmer aspects of the hands so that we can get 473 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: all aspects of the hands, because many times the hands 474 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: will tell the tale. They will tell you where the 475 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: individual has been, what they've been engaged in. And in 476 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: this case, there's this photograph that has risen up of 477 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: him actually been having following his arrest where his hands 478 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: are being photographed and you can quite literally see the 479 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: injuries that he has on the palmer aspects of both hands. 480 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 1: So there was quite a fight that he was involved in. 481 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: And he's he's really kind of, you know, kind of 482 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: playing this out. It's almost like he's when you read 483 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: this list, he's thinking about things. It's not just like say, 484 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: for instance, a grocery list, though there are things that 485 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: are listed in here. But he's talking about, um, he's 486 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: got to get bleached in order to d nature proteins. 487 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: That means that he's got uh some idea as to how, um, 488 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: how we go about discovering DNA. So he's trying to 489 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: eradicate the proteins. He's talking about also things like uh, 490 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: he needs plastic sheets in in order for the disposal process. 491 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: He's talking about this. He even even go so far 492 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: as to use the term flush chunks down the toilet, 493 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: not garbage disposal. There have been many cases over the 494 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: years and cases that I've worked where individuals that attempt 495 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: to get rid of tissue. When they will put tissue 496 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: into garbage disposals and they flipped the switch, what happens 497 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: is that specific tissue will get hung up on those 498 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: little teeth and you know, crim seeing investigators. We've got 499 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: all the time in the world, don't we We don't 500 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: have to go in and take our time and kind 501 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: of flash through things. We can actually take a part 502 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: of garbage disposal, get in there and recover tissue that's 503 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: in there. And that tissue that we recover, you know, 504 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: can be traced back to its point of origin, and 505 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: specifically we can find we can harvest DNA from from 506 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: that soft tissue. He had an awareness of all of this. 507 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 1: One one consideration that he has on his list as 508 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: this idea of uh, he was thinking about going to 509 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: the point of flooding the house. I guess he was 510 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: going to maybe make the pipes burst or or just 511 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: unleash um water hose inside the house to try to 512 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: fill the house with water in order to and he 513 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: specifically talks about this, if he floods the house quote unquote, 514 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: it'll it covers up forensic evidence. And that's that's kind 515 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: of fascinating as well. Um, And you know when you're 516 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: looking at this and you're thinking, well, how much thought 517 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: and how long had he been thinking about this prior 518 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: to doing this? Remember it was just literally days before 519 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: days before that he had sat had sat at table 520 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: with his mom, his dad, his siblings and enjoy Thanksgiving. 521 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: But you know you're sitting there and you're thinking about him. 522 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: Is he is he sitting there staring at his at 523 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: his parents, staring at his siblings, thinking how am I 524 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: going to facilitate this crime. I'm sitting here watching these 525 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: people eat, We're having conversations, we're talking about what's going 526 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: on over the past year, what's going on in our lives, 527 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: and all the while, maybe that little seed is turning 528 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: in his mind and he decides that he's going to 529 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: go ahead and perpetrate this crime almost immediately after Thanksgiving 530 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: dinner has ended. Well, you're right about one thing. As 531 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: always show You're usually right about everything, but you are 532 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: right about the fact about how long he had been 533 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: planning this crime, because the detailed nature of his list 534 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: shows that he had and spending copious amounts of time 535 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: trying to cover all of his spaces. As you said, 536 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: get multiple knives, get a sledgehammer to crush the bones, 537 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: bring a blender, get bleach the plastic binds. He even 538 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: notes that it doesn't matter whether they're killed, you just 539 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 1: have to get rid of the bloody spots um. He 540 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: notes that his DNA is already throughout the house, so 541 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: that qualifies his DNA is there because that's where he lives. 542 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: He also talks about opening up the doggie door as 543 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: a way for whoever did this to get into the house. 544 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: So he spent lots of time trying to figure out 545 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: the best way to make this happen for him not 546 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: to get caught. Yeah right, you are, Jackie, and you 547 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: know you have to wonder, you know, what's what's the 548 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: end game for this? And he is doing a lot 549 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: of thinking. Remember our friend Nancy Grace always says that famously, 550 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, she always says that uh intent, uh intent, 551 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: premeditation perhaps can be formed in the twinkling of a 552 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: of an eye. And in this particular case, Uh, he's 553 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: had quite a bit of time to kind of ruminate, 554 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: if you will, on all of these issues, to consider 555 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: all of the possibilities. The problem in this particular case 556 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: for him logistically is that it's still wound up being 557 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: very frenzied. Uh. You you look at this and you 558 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: understand that he was able to recognize problems. He's just 559 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: not good at bringing things to a resolution and solving 560 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: the problems. Hence, you know, for his the guy has 561 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: never had a job. He's always been dependent upon his 562 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: parents for everything in his life. Even at the advanced 563 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 1: age at twenty six, twenty eight years old that he was, 564 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: he was still living off of his parents. And I 565 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: think that that goes to the bigger, bigger picture here, 566 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: that he was just incapable, incapable of innishing anything in 567 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: his life, even when it came down to the disposal 568 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: of his parents body. There was one more note Joe 569 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: on that list that certainly lays out the framework for 570 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: what you just said. He notes in his list he's 571 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: not alive to claim her half of the insurance, meaning 572 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: his father money all mine five hundred thousand dollars. This 573 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: twenty eight year old son killed his mother and father 574 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: over money. I spend some time thinking about that and 575 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: how gruesome this crime was. That he would do this 576 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: to the two people that that created him. Essentially, you know, 577 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: that he would just rip them to shreds and bathe 578 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: their bodies in acid after he had dismembered them in 579 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: their own home. And you know, I spent some time, 580 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: you know, considering that. I thought, you know, yeah, he's 581 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: got five dollars listed as you know, the end game, 582 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: if you will, the motivation behind all of this um, 583 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: and you you really begin to think, you know, with 584 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: that five thousand dollars have been enough. Let's say that 585 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: he had gotten away with it, say that he had 586 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: laid claim to that five thousand dollars would have still 587 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: been enough. What what would happen when he ran through that? 588 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: But he go out and find more people to absolutely 589 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: eradicate um Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs