1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Boo boo boo boo dooo boo boo doo. We're coming 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: to a landown under I get chuck. We're going to 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Australia and New Zealand and New Zealand. That's right, oh man, 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: Like we are really excited. This has been years in 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: the making. We're finally pulling the trigger. In September. We 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: are doing shows on September one at the Astro Theater 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: in Perth, Sunday September two at I c C in Brisbane, 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: which heads up down there to you guys, that's spring 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: for you, not fall al right, well all September three, 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: Monday at Goldfields Theater in Melbourne. We're really getting around Thursday, 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: the sixth of September at the Inmore Theater in Sydney. 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: And then man, we are going to wrap it up Friday, 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: September seven at the Bruce Mason Theater in Auckland, New Zealand. 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: I cannot wait for that one, yea. You can go 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: to s y s K Live dot com to get 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: info and to buy tickets, which are on sale April. 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: We will see you in September. Australia and New Zealand. 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you Should Know from house Stuff Works 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant with Jerry Rowland. Three 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: of us put together, put us in some gray band aviators, 22 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: put a gray hoodie sweatshirt on us. You got stuff 23 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: you should know? I know, I like your costume. Today. 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: I thought I would dress up to really kind of 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: drive home the idea that I have. I know what 26 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about. Yeah, you know what's 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: funny is that today, all these years later, when you 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: see someone in aviators in a hoodie with the hood up, 29 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 1: you say, jeez, you know what's up? You in a barmber? 30 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: It's it's part of the social fabric these days. Like 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: I've ran across some some I guess an article from 32 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: the late nineties or whatever that was talking about that 33 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: famous sketch and how it made its way under like 34 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: coffee mugs and key chains and T shirts and like 35 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: it became like a pop culture icon. Oh yeah, I'm 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: sure it was on some T shirt design at what's 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: that terrible store? Spencer's hot topic? That was great? No 38 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: urban outfitters. Uh wait, so you're a Spencer's fan. Huh okay, 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: Spencer's over Urban Outfitters. I guess that is. That's the 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: great divide, you know, well, Michigan, Ohio state Spencer's Urban Outfitters. 41 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: Urban Outfitters is just trendy like stuff that they think 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: is clever, but it's not Spencer. You could go in 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: and get a poster of a bikini lady on a ferrari, 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: some incense and a and a giant rubber penuts right, Like, 45 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: that's a great store. I guess it is. You know 46 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: everything you need under one roof. I can't remember what 47 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: I was in there for the other day, but they 48 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: have like most extensive um selection of tasteless shot glasses 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: I've ever seen in my life. That Spencer. Yeah, which, 50 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: it's like there's people collecting that you can tell. I 51 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: wont to know who Spencer is. Spencer doesn't want you 52 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: to know who he is. That's why he called his 53 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: store Spencer. His real name is Jackson McClain. Oh wow, 54 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: nice work, Jackson threw me you sniffed me off the case. 55 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: Nice that was a good saved, Chuck. Thanks. Speaking of 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: good saves, I'm gonna bail us out of this intro 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: Let's do it and take us back way back to 58 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine eight A little seven year old, Sorry, Chuck, 59 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna go back one more year was seven. Oh, 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: so you knew I got it wrong. Okay. Well, in 61 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: in the Chicago Land area, there's a university called Northwestern University. 62 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: Go Wildcats. M hmm. I didn't look this one up 63 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: at think it is the Wildcats. That's what we're going with. UM. 64 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: And there was a security officer named Terry Maker who 65 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: opened a suspicious looking package. That's I couldn't find why 66 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: Terry Maker opened it. So I should say everybody, I'm 67 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: making the assumption here that it was deemed suspicious, and 68 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: they're like, gook at the security guard. But Terry Maker 69 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: opened this package and it exploded. He got some minor 70 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: cuts and burns. I don't see too many people counting 71 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: him as a victim of the UNI bomber, although I 72 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: think Terry Maker would probably take issue with that. UM. 73 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: But he was, by all accounts, the first person to 74 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: come into contact with the UNI bomber or one of 75 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: the UNI Bomber's bombs. Yeah, he was number one that 76 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: would go on to be fifteen more bombs over the 77 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: seventeen year killing spree. Well in a way, he killed 78 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: three people in the end, when did uh many more? Uh? 79 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: And we won't go through all of the targets, but 80 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: they ranged from American Airlines Flight forty four to the 81 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: president of United Airlines Percy Wood, to Vanderbilt University secretary, 82 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: to timber industry lobbyist to an advertising executive. Part of 83 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: the reason why it was uh so maddening for so 84 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: many years was because the there was no rhyme or 85 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: reason seemingly to the victims of the UNI bomber's wrath. No. 86 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: The one thing that they all shared in common and 87 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: the UNI bomb are also UM wrote letters to newspapers 88 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: during this whole time. UM. The thing that they had 89 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: in common was that they had something to do with 90 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: technology or the advancement of technology UM or the destruction 91 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: of nature, one of those two. And so these these 92 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: people like that was it. That was all you had 93 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: to be doing to be of a target of the 94 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: UNI bomber. He was extremely indiscriminate and picking who lived 95 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: or died by his hand. Uh. And you have to 96 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: understand all of these bombs, None of these bombs were 97 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: sent to scare people Every single one of these bombs, 98 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: whether they killed somebody or not, were intended to kill somebody. 99 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: Who they killed. The UNI bomber didn't much care, and 100 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: you can tell by the the kind of institution attitude 101 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: he had towards who who was targeted, like he would 102 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: get names wrong. His last victim a guy named um 103 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: Uh Gilbert Bret Murray. He was a timber industry lobbyist. 104 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: He opened the package because he was the president of 105 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: the timber industry lobby even though the package was addressed 106 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: to his predecessor. The reason it was addressed to his 107 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: predecessor was because the UNI bomber had picked the name 108 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: out of a directory and it was an out of 109 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: date directory. So this guy um died as a result 110 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: of the bomb, you know to do. It really was 111 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: and I think the unibomber if you talked to the 112 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,119 Speaker 1: UNI bomber today, which you could, apparently he's very easy 113 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us and become a pen 114 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: pal of UM, he would tell you totally fine, like 115 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: I don't care who died, like the head of this 116 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: timber lobby died. That was ultimately what I was going for. 117 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: So he was killing people who are associated with an idea, 118 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: a cause, and the cause that he was opposed to 119 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: was the destruction of nature and the the advancement of technology. Right, 120 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: So we're talking obviously about Ted Kazinski. It was the 121 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: man's real name. And early on in nine right after 122 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: these attacks started happening, the Postal Service, the A t F, 123 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: and the FBI got together formed a task force and 124 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: that's where they came up with the name unibomb You 125 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: n A b O M stood for University Airline bombings 126 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: because those were the first bombs that were sent. And 127 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: I guess the name of the case was by the FBI, 128 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: but the name UNI bomber was made up by the 129 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: media covering it, right, Yeah, that's usually the case. Yeah. Uh. 130 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: In the end, it would become the longest running at 131 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: the time, I don't know if it's been outdone yet, 132 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: but the longest running in most expensive FBI investigation in history. Uh. 133 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: Eventually had a hundred and fifty full time employees on 134 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: the case, which is amazing. And he was tough, too 135 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: tough to get and you know, he had no forensic 136 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: evidence left behind. He was very careful. He used bombs 137 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: that were made out of materials that were easy to find. 138 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: You couldn't track them. He made all of them by hand, painstakingly. Yeah, 139 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: made him all by hand. Like we said, the victims 140 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: were chosen seemingly at random, and had it not been 141 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: for his manifesto, they may still be on the lookout 142 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: for this guy. Yeah. And even still, the way that 143 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: they were able to connect these things was because during 144 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: the seventeen year campaign, he UM would write letters to U, 145 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: to the editors of newspapers around the country, claiming, we're 146 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: sponsibility for these these crimes UM. And then I think 147 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: half of the bombs had the inscription FC on parts 148 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: that were recovered, and FC stood for Freedom Club because 149 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: the UNI bomber didn't call himself the UNI bomber. Again, 150 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: that was the media. All of these things, including the manifesto, 151 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: was signed the Freedom Club Club of one right. But 152 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: he he always wrote about we whenever he was referring 153 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: to himself. So the whole thing came to a head 154 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: uh in when Tank Kaczynski was arrested in his cabin 155 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: in Lincoln, Montana. He was known to his neighbors as 156 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: the Hermit on the Hill, and he'd lived there for 157 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: years and years and years. I think since the early seventies. 158 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: I believe, Yeah, I mean it was a little primitive 159 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: cabin off grid. Inside they found about forty thousand pages 160 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: worth of journals describing all his crimes. They found bomb 161 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: parts U, they found a bomb ready to be mailed, 162 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: and they knew they had their guy thanks to his 163 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: brother David turning him in essentially after reading this manifesto. Uh. 164 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: He was eventually reigned in Sacramento, which is where the 165 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: final murder took place, and he was sent to jail. 166 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: Initially said no, I don't want to. I don't want 167 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: to uh be uh, I don't want to plead insanity. 168 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: But that's a big, big point, yeah, because I don't. 169 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: I don't think he would have admitted something like that. 170 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: But he tried to kill himself in early and his 171 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: jail cell. That triggered a psychiatric evaluation and he was 172 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which triggered a plea bargain that 173 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: basically said, you can avoid the death penalty now if 174 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: you take this plea bargain. He did, and in January 175 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: of eight he pleaded guilty, accepted the eight life sentences 176 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,599 Speaker 1: with no parole, and is now living was quite a 177 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: few other famous bombers. Um at the Florence, Colorado Alcatraz 178 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: of the Rockies, the X there's that place in and 179 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: of itself is crazy. I looked into it. Yeah, I 180 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: feel like it's come up in plenty of other episodes 181 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: before because it certainly sounds familiar. So I was looking into. Um, 182 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: there's this fascinating article called Harvard in the Making of 183 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: the UNI Bomber by a guy named Alston Chase, who 184 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: I think wrote a book on it. But in this article, um, 185 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: he you read it too, so he he really kind 186 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: of lays out a pretty great case based on evidence 187 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: that he compiled from interviews and things like that, that 188 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: it's definitely not a slam dunk diagnosis that the UNI 189 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: Bomber has schizophrenia. And he also, I don't know if 190 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: he says it outright, but he at the very least 191 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: intimates that that it was teg Kazynski's brother David and 192 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: his legal team that created the public persona of the 193 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: Union Bomber as a as a person with his friend 194 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: you to keep him from getting the death penalty. This 195 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: is much much, much to the chagrin of the Union 196 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: Bomber tak Kaczynski, who eventually did cop to this plea 197 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: bargain because it became clear to him that if he 198 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: went to trial, his defense team was going to put 199 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: in an insanity defense, whether he liked it or not, 200 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: and he was denied the ability to represent himself. So 201 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: he was presented with a choice either go to trial, 202 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: plead insanity, maybe get a lesser defense, but in the 203 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: meantime his manifesto would be painted as the ramblings of 204 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: a madman because he would be deemed insane or plead 205 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: guilty and not insane. Defend insanity and then, in his 206 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: hopes um also by by extension, defend his manifesto and 207 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: the ideas in it. Yeah, so he is still in 208 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: prison in Colorado. Apparently, like you said, he's got a 209 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: lot of pen pals because he lived in a tiny, 210 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: little primitive cabin for so many years. By all accounts, 211 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: he has adapted pretty well to prison life. Being in 212 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: a small room is no big deal to him. And 213 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: you can actually go to the and I'm gonna totally 214 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: check this out. I don't know if I can do 215 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: it on this upcoming tour, but you can go see 216 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: that original cabin at the Newseum in Washington, d C. 217 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: And I've looked up pictures and it's kind of all 218 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: right there, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, the whole thing 219 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: is just right there in the Newseum. Yeah. So he 220 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: was a brilliant guy. Uh, like you said, he went 221 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: to Harvard. He's a national merit finalist, he was a 222 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: math prodigy, started Harvard at sixteen, had an i Q 223 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: or has an i Q of one sixty seven. And uh, 224 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: it was just a is just a brilliant and brilliant guy. 225 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: And I think we should take a break. I'm getting 226 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: a tingle, and we'll come back and we'll talk. Uh. Well, 227 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: I guess we should talk about the manifesto. Let's all 228 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: right right for this? Hyeh all right, chuck him. We're 229 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: back and were kind of left it off on. Uh, well, 230 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: we promised we're about to talk manifesto, So let's talk manifesto. Yeah. 231 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: And after reading the cliffs notes of this thing um 232 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: in a few different places, one thing is clear is 233 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: it's not the ramblings of a madman a b he 234 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: has and I hate saying this, but he has a 235 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: lot of very salient points about where society is headed 236 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: due to technology or or where it was headed back 237 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: in nineties where it fully is now. Yeah, very much 238 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: ahead of his time, thinking wise. The way he went 239 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: about correcting this was was not was abhorrent obviously, but 240 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: when you read parts of this thing, the industrial Revolution 241 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: and its consequences, uh, like here, just let me pull 242 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: this one for instance. Um, here's here's one pull quote. 243 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: Once a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become 244 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: dependent on it so that they can never again do 245 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: without it unless it is replaced by some still more 246 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: advanced innovation. Not only do people become dependent as individuals 247 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: on a new item of technology, but even more the 248 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: system as a whole becomes dependent on it. Does it 249 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: sound like anything that everyone carries in their pocket every 250 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: day exactly? And he also points out that like the 251 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: way the way that this happens, this this dependence on technology, 252 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: it comes about because new technology seem good and help 253 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: full and useful, and then we eventually adapt ourselves to 254 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: fit them better. We change our behavior, we change the 255 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: way we see things, we change the way we think 256 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: and interact with stuff to fit the technology. And his 257 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: whole idea was that that that is the the u 258 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: inevitable outcome from the Industrial Revolution, and that ever since 259 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution, our society has been in a stranglehold 260 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: at the service of technology and the people who serve technology, 261 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: and society has been restructured and reshuffled to the detriment 262 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: of the individual human to local communities as a whole. 263 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: And that, um, the only way that this is such, 264 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: this is so ingrained now in our world. The only 265 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: way to stop this is to violently overthrow the current system. 266 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: And he has very las a fair attitude about what 267 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: comes after. He said that we have no illusions about 268 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: the feasibility of creating a new idea old form of society. 269 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: Our goal only is to destroy the existing form of society. 270 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: That was it. That was the whole reason for his 271 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: campaign was to be the one of the provocateurs of 272 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: this revolution that upended technological society. Yeah, here's another summation 273 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: of another part of the manifesto about the social infrastructure 274 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: that he says is dedicated to modifying our own behaviors. Uh. 275 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: This infrastructure includes an array of government agencies with ever 276 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: expanding police powers and out of control regulatory system that 277 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: encourages the limitless multiplication of laws and education, establishment and 278 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: stresses uh conformism, ubiquitous television networks. Who's Fair is essentially 279 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: an electronic form of valum and a medical and psychological 280 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: establishment that promotes the indiscriminate use of mind altering drugs. 281 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: So again, I don't want this to come across that 282 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: I like look up to this guy in anyway. But 283 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: when you read some of the stuff, you think, Man, 284 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: if this guy had only reined it in, he could 285 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: have done good. Yeah. I can't remember what the turning 286 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: point was, but there was some there was some potential 287 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: path that he was on where he could have done 288 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: this peacefully, and he pulled back and went a violent way. 289 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: And I think, I think quite rightly that if he 290 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: were not well locked up for the rest of his life, 291 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: he would he would keep sending bombs out. He would 292 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: not stop because he's he doesn't he's not a a 293 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: moral agent. He is a rational agent, and he sees 294 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: this as a rational and to the means. To his means, 295 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: which is taking out people who may or may not 296 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: be in a position to advance technological society. Well, yeah, 297 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: and that's what was That's where the line the delineation occurs, 298 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: where he was he's such a smart person, but that's 299 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: such a dumb like there's blowing someone up, is gonna 300 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: is not gonna haul any innovations or change the course 301 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: of where we're headed as a society. It was just uh, 302 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: I mean to call it misguided is the understatement of 303 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: the year. So and forgive me for armchair psychologalizing here, 304 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: But now you start to get into the idea of 305 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: whether or not he was fulfilling or indulging his own 306 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: desire to kill right, Well, you never know, because if 307 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: he is thinking about things like this, and he is 308 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: such a rational person, surely there would have been other 309 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: ways to to do this that were either more productive 310 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: or on the other hand, more destructive, right, Like sending 311 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: a bomb that might take out one or two or 312 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: three people is not it's and and by making these 313 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: bombs painstaking lee by hand over the course of months 314 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: and probably years, sometimes that's not a very productive way 315 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: of achieving this goal. So it makes you wonder, did 316 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: this guy just want to kill people? And and that 317 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: that coupled with this this view of technological society to 318 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: form what we know as the UNI bomber. Well, I 319 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: think that was probably the case. Is he was angry 320 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: at where things were headed and he wanted to take 321 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: it out on somebody. Yeah, but again I want to 322 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: go back to this idea that he is schizophrenic. Um 323 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: there is a uh that that is not necessarily the case. 324 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: He was given a temporary or provisional or conditional schizophrenic 325 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: diagnosis of schizophrenia by a court ordered psychiatrist, forensic psychiatrist, 326 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: and that was it. I don't believe she ever went 327 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: back and made an official diagnosis. Other people in the media, 328 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: other psychiatrists were basically diagnosing them from afar. Some some 329 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: psychiatrists met with him, but they didn't officially um examine him. 330 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: So basically, just based on his actions and his manifesto 331 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: and what was contained within, he was largely given this 332 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: diagnosis of schizophrenia. And I couldn't find anything that said 333 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: that he's being treated for schizophrenia now, which is kind 334 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: of a big deal because it's a two two full 335 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: big deal. One it it says it dismisses him as 336 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: just a complete madman who who is delusional, but it 337 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: also does a tremendous disservice to people with schizophrenia because 338 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: it says this is what people with schizophrenia, Do they 339 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: send bombs to people They go and live in like 340 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: Montana for alone for thirty years and send bombs to 341 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: people the whole time. Yeah, So it's it's doing that 342 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: same armchair psychologicalizing that I was doing. Is it's it's 343 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: it's worse if you're an actual psychiatrist, you know. Yeah. Uh, 344 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: all right, Well, I think we should talk a little 345 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: bit about how this this manifesto came to be in 346 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: public view, because it's a super interesting sub story in itself. Um, 347 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: the great, great article from the Washington Post where I 348 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: got most of this part, but uh, they make the 349 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: point in this article super interesting to me that, um, 350 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: the time that this happened in the mid to late nineties, 351 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: it was a transitionary time in technology in and of itself, 352 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: and that the Internet was around, but it wasn't ubiquitous, 353 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: and it's not where everyone went for everything, including news. 354 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: So the fact that this publishing of the manifesto in 355 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, which we'll talk about in a second, 356 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: it says here it was perhaps the last one, the 357 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: last newsworthy document to appear only in print, and it's 358 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: very ironic considering what he was railing against was that. Um, 359 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: it was before everyone was getting their news from the internet. 360 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: So the fact that they actually it was it was 361 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: an era that was it was being forgotten the newspaper print, 362 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: uh in print. And that's how he got his message 363 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: out finally by sending packages containing this manifesto to the 364 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: New York Times in the Washington Post in June. Yes, 365 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: so they each one got a package one day after 366 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: the other, and the one to the Post had a 367 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: return name and address Boonlong Hot s O nine Reynaulso Court, 368 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: San Jose, California, nine five one three six. And it 369 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: turns out that that address and that person it was 370 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: he he was a CFO of a tie circuit board 371 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: maker whose headquarters were in San Jose. That was the 372 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: address for that. So they Um, you can imagine that 373 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: Boonlong Hoe was pretty nervous because rather than being like 374 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: the recipient of a bomb, he was supposedly the center 375 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: of these this manifesto to the Washington Post. But the 376 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: FBI investigated and quickly cleared Boonlong ho Um and the 377 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: Post and the Time suddenly had a decision to make 378 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: because in this in this package with this manifesto was 379 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: a letter that said, if you published this, I will 380 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: stop killing people. If you don't, I'm gonna start, or 381 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: we will start making our next bomb. Yeah. So they 382 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: obviously got touch with the FBI. Uh. The FBI took 383 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: one look at the letter and said, I think this 384 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: is from the Unit Bomber. They went, duh, uh, of 385 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: course it is. There is no Well, they actually they 386 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: didn't know at the time how many people were sending 387 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: these bombs UM, but they met with Uh, they had 388 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: three meetings I think with the FBI's director at the time, 389 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: Lewis Free, and the task force. And then two out 390 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: of those three meetings, Attorney General Janet Reno came, that's 391 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: like such a nineties meeting. So nineties Lewis Free and 392 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: Jane Arena. Oh yeah, yeah for sure. Uh. So they said, listen, 393 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: we're not in the safety business. We're not experts on this. 394 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: You tell us what you think we should do, and 395 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: then we'll make our mind up what we should do. Basically, 396 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: everyone said, you should probably publish this UM because A 397 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: we can maybe tag and track newspapers in northern California 398 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: where we think he might be be. Maybe someone will 399 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: recognize this guy and come forward. Uh. Was there, c No, 400 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: it's the saying okay. And so this is a note 401 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: to all potential UM manifesto writers. If you are trying 402 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: to keep your identity a secret, probably refrain from publishing 403 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: your thirty five thousand world word manifesto because you're going 404 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: to out yourself. And that's exactly what happened with Ted Kaczynski. UM. 405 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: The Washington Posted the New York Times agreed to do this. Actually, 406 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: the New York Times. It's like, why don't you do it? 407 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: We'll just half the cost of printing and distribution. Yea. 408 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty interesting. I'm surprised they didn't 409 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: both want to. But the Post said will do it 410 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: if you go have these, which is adorable, and they did. Uh. 411 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: And then they said here's what we'll do, though, we're 412 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: not gonna just put it in the newspaper. We're gonna 413 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: print it in a special section with its own type face. Uh. 414 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: And it became a sensation like people wanted copies of 415 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: this thing, like extra copies for themselves, wrote the newspaper, 416 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: and they're like, we don't have any other copies. Um. 417 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: And like we said, this was the last time that 418 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: this was sort of a viable. Like now, anyone can 419 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: throw anything on the Internet. So it was a really 420 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: interesting time in the the course of humanity that this 421 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: thing came out. As far as like mad bombers go. 422 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: Having the Washington Post pretty your thirty five thousand word 423 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: manifesto is pretty prestigious, especially at that time. I can't 424 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: decide whether it be more prestigious today because anybody can 425 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: just put it out on the Internet. But yeah, but 426 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: I think at the time, I mean, like newspapers were 427 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: at still at the height of their influence. You know, 428 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: who knows, but at the very you can imagine take 429 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: Kazinski's surprise and delight when the Times published this thing. 430 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: And like you said, it was a sensation. But it 431 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: made its way into the hands of Linda Patrick, who 432 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: was actually a childhood friend of David Kazinski and um 433 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: now his wife, and she noticed us um or she 434 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: read this manifesto and said this sounds an awful lot 435 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: like your brother Teddy to David, and he read it 436 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: and he said, oh no, should we take a break? Yeah, 437 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: all right, that's a man. What a cliffhanger. Nice work, 438 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: thanks m h alright, good cliffhanger. Thank you. I feel 439 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: like we're dangling by our fingernails. So where we left 440 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: off was Linda Patrick, wife of well, sister in law 441 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: of the Uni bomber, wife of David, who was the 442 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: younger brother, said take a look at this. David read 443 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: it and said, this sounds very much like my brother. 444 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: In fact, Uh, there was a term what was the 445 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: term that he used that was sort of a dead 446 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: giveaway cool headed logicians. Yeah, that's a that's not something 447 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: here every day. I don't use that very frequently. Yeah, 448 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: So he saw that, and I think I can't imagine 449 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: just the stomach churning, sinking feeling that he got right 450 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: when he saw those three words. Especially Yeah, I like 451 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,479 Speaker 1: you said, that was the dead giveaway. I think if 452 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,239 Speaker 1: you put the whole thing together. Though, Um, he had 453 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,719 Speaker 1: been he and his family had been receiving actually he hadn't. 454 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: Leading up to I think nine he had been receiving 455 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: letters from his brother about the same stuff. So I 456 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: think even without that that term, he probably would have 457 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: been pretty convinced. But he was. He was convinced enough 458 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: to go. Um. His wife, Linda contacted a family friend 459 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: who was an investigator for a lawyer, and this woman 460 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: kind of took charge of this and hired like a 461 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: criminal profiler who looked at the letters from Ted and 462 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: then the UNI bomber manifesto and said, I'm pretty sure 463 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: this is the same guy that hired another lawyer who 464 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: represented the family, and they went to the FBI and said, 465 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: we think we know who the UNI bomber is. Yeah. 466 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting and that he didn't go 467 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: right to the FBI like he took. It seems like 468 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: I don't know how much time, but it said weeks. Yeah, 469 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: I went through a lot of effort privately to to 470 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: suss out whether or not they thought it was legit. 471 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: I mean I think he didn't. I mean, by all accounts, 472 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: he didn't want to do this, and he was even 473 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: worried what his mother would think. Um, And finally the 474 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: mother did say, you know, she she took his head 475 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: in her hands and kissed him and basically was like, 476 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: I know you loved Ted and you had to do this. 477 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: Basically she said, I knew it was you, Fredo. So 478 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: now we should jump back in time and sort of 479 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: explain the relationship with David and Ted and how they 480 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: got here because they were estranged for twe years before 481 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: this um. Interestingly, you know, we talked about had he 482 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: not decided to start sending bombs, he could have led 483 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: him more productive life, oh easily. But David was sort 484 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: of cut from the same cloth, like they bought this 485 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: land together in Montana. Hold on, I want to say 486 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: something here, Chuck. You just said that he could have 487 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: led a more productive life. I said that he could 488 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: have been more productive earlier too. Do you realize what 489 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about is we're saying that he could have 490 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: better fit into the technological system that he was railing well, 491 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: or or not, or maybe have been an outspoken advocate 492 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: in a productive way on Facebook ship. There go, Sorry 493 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: for interrupting. I's had to point that. Now, that's right. Uh. 494 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: So they originally had bought this land in Montana together. Uh. 495 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: They both had these sort of similar ideals about removing 496 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: themselves from society. Uh. For David, though, it was like 497 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: back to nature, getting out of the riff, the hustle 498 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: and bustle of the world to find himself, to find 499 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: himself like a spiritual journey. For Ted, it seems very 500 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: much like I don't like people. Yeah. Um, he was 501 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: a bit of a missing thrope and they even have 502 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: stories dating back to when he was like seven years old, 503 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: when David asked mom, like, what's wrong with Teddy? Like 504 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: when people come over to visit, he runs to the 505 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: attic and hides something's wrong. And his mom said, you 506 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: know what, when he was a baby, he was hospitalized 507 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: for a few days with a rash, and being separated 508 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: from us for those few days is what is caused this. 509 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: So and then she says, so, don't ever abandoned Teddy. 510 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: That's what he fears the most, right, Yeah, not quite true. Actually, 511 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: so she lays that on on this kid, this is 512 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: like her his older brother that she's talking to him about, 513 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: you know. Um, but he said that as they grew up, 514 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: he was kind of like, um, Ted's entree into socialization, 515 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: Like David would go to parties, and I get the 516 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: impression that Ted would kind of tag along, you though 517 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: he was the older brother. But um, that's not to 518 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: say that that David didn't. He says that he looked 519 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: up to Ted. Um, and Ted was just this whiz kid, 520 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: wonder boy, genius when it came to math. You said 521 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: he went to Harvard at sixteen, Like, say that again, man, 522 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: he went to Harvard at age sixteen. Yeah, I think 523 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: he got like in Masters and his PhD in math 524 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: by the time he was like twenty or twenty one 525 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: or something. Okay, Yeah, so this guy was a mathematical genius. 526 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: Who from what the um The Atlantic article by Austin 527 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: Chase says, kind of lays a lot of um, a 528 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: lot of this at his dad's feet for pushing him 529 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: at a very early age to to become like to 530 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: go to Harvard, to jump a couple of grades in school, 531 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Um. So he was already you 532 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: could say, misanthropic, potentially socially maladjusted. Who knows he He 533 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: wasn't like the easy going kid on the block, but 534 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: supposedly once you got to do him, especially if you 535 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: were a grown up and not one of his peers, 536 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: he was very easy to be around. Actually, yes, a 537 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: little brother. David. He looks up to Ted. He tries 538 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: to go to Harvard. Uh, is rejected, and then, like 539 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: I said, they bought this land together. Ted builds this cabin. 540 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: David later on says, well, I can I build a cabin? 541 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: You know, I want to build a cabin on this land. 542 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: To Ted was like, no way, dude, this is my 543 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: cabin and my land. So David, I'm sure was, you know, 544 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: very disappointed. He goes finds his own land in West Texas, 545 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: builds his cabin, and they corresponded for many years, a 546 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: thousand miles apart about their journeys towards living off grid 547 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: and getting back to nature. Yeah. I think he lived 548 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: in just like um Ted did for at least eight years, 549 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: I believe. And then he said his brother disowned him 550 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: when he sent a letter saying that he was moving 551 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: out of the forbidden zone into upstate New York to 552 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: go marry um Lynda Patrick. Right. Yeah, I think he 553 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: thought he was a sellout basically. That's that's what I 554 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: get to. He said him like a I think a 555 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: blistering twenty page letter saying I'm done with you. We're done. Um. 556 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: And that was it. That was the last contact that 557 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: he had had aside from one letter after their dad 558 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with lung cancer. Um. That was the only 559 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: contact he had. So he he hasn't spoken to his brother, 560 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: corresponded really with his brother since. Yeah, they had this 561 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: system worked out where, uh, if there was a family emergency, 562 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: then David was to put a line, draw a line 563 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: under the stamp of the letter. And that's the only 564 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: thing that he would open. If you send me any 565 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: other letters, I'll burn them. And if you take advantage 566 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: of this system and and fool me by putting a 567 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: line under it and it's not an emergency, then I'm 568 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: never going to open a letter again. So he did 569 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: send that one letter with a line under the stamp 570 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: about his father. I didn't even reply, uh, except to 571 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: say thank you for for sticking to our system. And 572 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 1: he didn't even mention the fact that their father was dying. 573 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: So that was that was the last time they corresponded. 574 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: That was but that was it for the correspondence from 575 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: basically from eighty nine onward, David and Ted were estranged 576 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: and so come David's already not spoken with his brother 577 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: for six years, and now he suddenly his faced with 578 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: this idea of turning his brother in, knowing that he's 579 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: probably going to get the death penalty. So when they 580 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: finally did go to the FBI, and the FBI had 581 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: their own UM linguistic analysis done on these letters, and 582 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: they said, yeah, this is the guy um. David started 583 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: this campaign two paint his brother as mentally ill in 584 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: order to thwart the federal prosecutors from seeking the death 585 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: penalty because apparently they told him that they wouldn't and 586 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: then they reneged on that, um and he felt extremely betrayed, 587 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: so much so that he's apparently a crusader for UM 588 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: an anti death penalty activists now based on that that 589 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: betrayal from the federal prosecutors. Yeah, this is amazing. He works. 590 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: He's the head of the New Yorkers Against the Death 591 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: Penalty group. And get this, I know you know this 592 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: talking to everyone else. His closest friend, his bestie is 593 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: Gary Wright, who was one of the computer store owners 594 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: in Utah who was a victim of Ted. Yeah, they 595 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: became good friends. Two hundred pieces of shrapnel lodge in 596 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: his body from one of Ted's bombs, and now he 597 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: and David Kaczynski are best buds. And one of so 598 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: also from that same bomb that was one of Uh 599 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: is it Gary right? Gary? U s bonds? No? Gary right? Yeah? Okay, Gary, 600 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: writes employee. UM is the woman who saw the UNI 601 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 1: bomber and gave that scription to the sketch artist. Wow, 602 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: I know there was a turning point in a bunch 603 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: of people's lives, right, there. Yeah, that sketch didn't even 604 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: look like I'm really though, I've seen people be like, gosh, 605 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: it's the spinning image of them. It's like, no, once 606 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: you have oversized aviators on, it doesn't look like anybody. Yeah. So, UM, 607 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: David turns on his brother Take Kazinski's arrested in on 608 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: April third. He pleads guilty and um and he's been 609 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: serving his eight consecutive life sentences ever since. And recently 610 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: there was a big few I think a two thousand 611 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen. When the two twelve, I guess because 612 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: it would have been his fiftieth class reunion. Harvard, the 613 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: people running his class and publishing the class directory reached 614 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: out to him like they did everybody else in the 615 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: class and send him a forum to fill out, and 616 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: he filled it out and send it back in and 617 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: they published it. Yeah. He said his job prisoner and 618 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: that he he listed his was at eight life sentences 619 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: as awards. Yeah, and um gave his address at the Florence, 620 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: Colorado super Max facility and it was a huge Obviously, 621 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 1: it was a huge embarrassment for Harvard because they were 622 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: not paying attention and UM a bit of a scandal too. 623 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: I think Ted Kaczynski probably thought it was hilarious. Yeah, 624 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: should we should we finish with a little Day New 625 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: mom about this weird Harvard experiment. Only if you say 626 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: day New again? All right? So going back in time 627 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: once again to uh follow fifty nine through spring of 628 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, there was an experiment at Harvard University 629 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: led by psychologist Henry Murray and how they describe it 630 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: here in this article as a disturbing and what would 631 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: now be seen as ethically indefensible experiment on twenty two undergrads. Uh. 632 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: They each undergrad that took part. Ted Kazynski was one 633 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: of them, had a had a code name for the 634 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: purposes of anonymity, and ironically Ted Kaczynski's was Lawful was 635 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: his code name. So basically what would happen is is 636 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: they would get it was it was interrogation is what 637 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: they would go through. So they would go into a room. 638 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: They would go downstairs to this basement room and then 639 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,919 Speaker 1: a voice I would say, you know, enter the room. 640 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: They would enter the room, they would sit down and 641 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: be faced with a spotlight that would blind them in 642 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: an otherwise dark room, and then they would sit uh 643 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: in front of a board of inquisitors that would order 644 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: them to do things kind of start slow and then 645 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: eventually um build up to where they're screaming and yelling 646 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: at these kids, these in in Ted's case, I guess 647 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: like sixteen seventeen years old, and berating them basically. And 648 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: this was this was not just like you you dressed 649 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: like a slab or um. You know, your mother's meat 650 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: loaf is terrible. Like part the step one of all 651 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: this was that you're you were supposed to talk about 652 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: some of your most deeply held beliefs, the most treasured 653 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: beliefs and values and views on things. And then these 654 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: these inquisitors, who were actually like like um law student 655 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: graduate students, would would harangue you over your beliefs and 656 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: and and explain to you why they were so stupid 657 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: and why you were such a useless human being for 658 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: holding these beliefs. And the whole point of this, the 659 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: entire point was to find out the psychological limits for 660 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: humiliation and stress brought on by humiliation and when people 661 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: would crack. And this is not a one time thing 662 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: that he went and did for extra credit. This was 663 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: carried out over three years. Again, the kids sixteen at 664 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: the time, he's already socially awkward. Um, he's already isolated 665 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: from from his peers just by by um the virtue 666 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: of his intelligence, let alone his personal choices at being 667 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: isolated from everybody, and he's being harangued by like these 668 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: people about his most deeply held beliefs. His brother David 669 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: said in another article, he doesn't believe that that had 670 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: anything to do with creating the unim bomber. Plenty of 671 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: other people are like, no, I'm not so sure about that. Well, 672 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: here's what I think. And what was the name of 673 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: the article from The Atlantic? Um, did Harvard create the unibomber? 674 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: Harvard in the making of the unibomber? Yeah, it's It 675 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: certainly didn't help, especially when he had this core belief 676 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: system that was so firmly entrenched. For to sit in 677 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: a room for three years off and on and be 678 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: criticized and screamed at and called a liar uh and 679 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: detigrated like that, I'm sure it did not help. Yes, supposedly, 680 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,359 Speaker 1: wasn't a very relativistic person. It was things were black 681 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 1: and white, and if you believe something was right, it 682 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: was right. So to have it assailed like that. Yeah, 683 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: I surely it had some effect somewhere. It just couldn't. 684 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: I mean Kazynski or Ted Kazynski later said that Harvard 685 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: were the worst years of his life. Yeah, so in 686 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: some small way, I guess he got him back by 687 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: getting that published in the directory and embarrassing the class. Yeah. Yeah, 688 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: revenge is a meal best or of cold through a 689 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: tiny slot in a metal door, doing eight life sentences. Uh. 690 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: If you got anything else, I got nothing else. Man, 691 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: that was a good one, It really was. Uh. And 692 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: again I think it bears repeating. Nothing about what we've 693 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: said that agreed with the UNI bomber and his theories 694 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: has anything to do with agreeing with violence of any kind, 695 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: especially indiscriminate random killing of people with bombs through the mail. 696 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: It's probably the most cowardly way you could injure or 697 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: hurt anybody. So we don't agree with that at all. 698 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: It's fine to say it one more time. Yeah, for sure. 699 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: If you want to know more about um, the UNI bomber, 700 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 1: it's all over the place. You can go type that 701 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: word you and a b O b e er in 702 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: your favorite search bar and it will bring up lots 703 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: of stuff. In the meantime, it's time for listener now. 704 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this Subway episode. Remember we we released 705 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: our selects on Saturdays, and I believe this. I don't 706 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: know if it was this one of your picks. I 707 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: guess it was mine then on Subways. So it's an 708 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: old episode, but a recent re release. Oh Lah, Josh 709 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: and Chuck. I'm in Andrea from Mexico. I've been listening 710 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: to your podcast for a bit over a year now, 711 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: but it's first time I'm writing in I listened to Subways, 712 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: and even though it's a rerun, I really wanted to 713 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: comment because I have some fun facts. As you mentioned 714 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: in the episode, sometimes digging for subways has led to 715 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: curious discoveries. In case of Mexico City, the digging of 716 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: the metro led to the discovery of a lot of 717 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: the remains of the Aztec city. Even though it was 718 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: common knowledge at the Spanish city had been built over 719 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: the ruins of Oh here we go, uh Tina Titslan. 720 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: That was pretty much it close. Uh. It was only 721 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: when excavation started in the sixties that they could uncover 722 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: the whole underground world. Since then, they have uncovered more 723 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: than twenty thousand archaeological objects and continue to find new 724 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: things to this day. If you have a chance to 725 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: walk around the city center, you may find the Templo 726 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: Mayor right beside the Spanish Cathedral. Who else can say 727 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: their everyday commute includes walking by the altar of a 728 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 1: god of wind. Anyway, I think he's a very interesting 729 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: fun facts that I wanted to share with you and 730 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: the fellow listeners. Maybe one day you can do How 731 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: Mexico City works episode. The history of the city is 732 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 1: super interesting and I think it's amazing. You can literally 733 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: see the layers of time in the city today. Uh. 734 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: And she attaches some pictures and this is Andrea Gonzales 735 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: and man, we should do a show in Mexico City. Share, man, 736 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: I bet you we could get a thousand people. We 737 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: will find out into a room. I know what. We 738 00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: haven't delved outside of English speaking countries before, but Betchet, 739 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: of all the cities, we could probably do so in 740 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: Mexico City. Yeah. If Morrissey does get in Mexico City, 741 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure we could too. It's kind of we try 742 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: and model our career after mos Um. Did you see 743 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,839 Speaker 1: that picture she sent of the altar of the wind. God. 744 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,359 Speaker 1: I'm like humans were sacrificed on that. That's insane that 745 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: you just walked past that on your way to the 746 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,759 Speaker 1: subway every day. It's pretty interesting. Uh well, if you 747 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: want to tell us about your interesting commute, we always 748 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 1: want to hear stuff like that. You can tweet to 749 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 1: us at s Y s K podcast or at Josh 750 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: M Clark. You can hang out with Chuck on Facebook 751 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,280 Speaker 1: at Charles W. Chuck Bryant, or at stuff you Should 752 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: Know the Facebook page. You can send us an email 753 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: the Stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot com and 754 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,839 Speaker 1: has always joined us at our home on the web, 755 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know dot com. For more on this 756 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,399 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is that how stuff Works 757 00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 1: dot com.