1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,040 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, or 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: their employees. This podcast also contained subject matter which may 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: In August nineteen ninety five, just two months after Julie 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: LeJean and Melissa Rousseau went missing in the east of Belgium, 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: a group of teenagers who were part of the Harlequin 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 2: Amateur Theater group gathered at one of their houses to 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: put the final touches on their summer beach trip plans. 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: It was a big deal for most of the kids, 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: who'd never been on a parent's free vacation before. The 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: meeting took place at Paul and Betty Marshaw's house, who, 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: after much hesitation, decided to let their seventeen year old 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: daughter Anne join the trip. It was a nice group, 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: responsible kids, so Paul and Betty went upstairs and let 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: them plan their trip without helicoptering over them. Their daughter 18 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: Anne was so excited that she thought of nothing else 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: in the days prior to leading for the coast. The 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: train ride from Hustle to their destination in west Inda 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 2: on the Belgian coast was about two hundred kilometers. They'd 22 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 2: rented a bungalow there where ten of them would stay 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: for a week. Unfortunately, two of them would never return home. 24 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: Psychopaths is somebody who understands emotions. 25 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 4: And I told them it is very exceptional that somebody 26 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 4: abducts two children at the same time. 27 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: Would have been the end of it in nineteen eighty six, 28 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: but my god, it was just a beginning. 29 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 5: I think Belgium was a paralyzed for perverts in those days. 30 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to La Monstra. I'm your host, Matt Graves. It 31 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: had been two months and the community of Liege and 32 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: Belgium was still desperately searching for answers and the disappearance 33 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: of eight year olds Julie Lejeanne and Melissa Russo. Their 34 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: disappearances were presumed to be an isolated incident, but on 35 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: August twenty third, nineteen ninety five, on the Belgian seaside, 36 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: two more girls would vanish while on a beach trip, 37 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: seventeen year old Anne Marschal and eighteen year old Effie Lambricks. 38 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: Their disappearance would quickly make the local news. 39 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 5: He said that these. 40 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: Middle Anna, if you went missing, only about one hundred 41 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: miles away from Liege, where Julian Melissa disappeared. But the 42 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: two places are worlds apart. I'm originally from Texas, where 43 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: you can drive for two straight days without much of 44 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: a change in culture or scenery. Belgium is the opposite 45 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: of that. You can drive less than one hundred miles 46 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: and feel like you've been to three different countries. The 47 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: first two girls disappeared from Liege, a French speaking region 48 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: where rolling hills covered with thick pine forests cut through 49 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: river valleys. It's where part of the Battle of the 50 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: Bulge took place in World War II, as immortalized by 51 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: the book and series Band of Brothers. The Belgian coastal 52 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: province of West Flanders is quite the opposite. It's a 53 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: Dutch speaking region and one of the flattest places I've 54 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: ever seen. It's next to where the famous evacuation and 55 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: subsequent World War II Battle of Dunkirk took place. It 56 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: was there about twenty five miles up the beach from Dunkirk, 57 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: where the group of teenagers including Anne Marschal and Effie 58 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: Alambrichs had booked their beach trip. There was an excited 59 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: atmosphere when the teens checked into their bungalow at the 60 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: Marina Park resort in West Inda. It was about a 61 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: fifteen minute walk to the beach and a short bike 62 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: ride to the seaside town of Newport with its restaurants, 63 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: cafes and attractions. On Monday, some of them took a 64 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: one hour trip by tram to the larger town of 65 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: Blunkenberga to see a hypnotist show at the local casino. 66 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,559 Speaker 2: It was a blast and two of them got free 67 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: passes to the following night's show. Anne Marshall originally planned 68 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: to check out the show with her friend Linda, but 69 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: she had gotten delayed, so another girl, Alambrics, took her 70 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: place so Anne didn't have to go alone. On Tuesday 71 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: evening August twenty second, Ann and Ifia rode their bikes 72 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: to the tram station in West India and boarded a 73 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: tram for Blunkenberger. 74 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 6: I'll get us off Blanket back again. 75 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: They made their way to the Blunkenberger Casino and used 76 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: their free tickets to get into the Rosty Rostelli hypnotist show. 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: The Rosty Rostelli show was a mix of magic and 78 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: group hypnosis. Rosti himself was a born entertainer, complete with 79 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: wavy black hair and a flair for live stage performance, 80 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: so who's going to be During the act, he would 81 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: get about eighty volunteers up on the stage, where he 82 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: would take them through a group hypnosis and then reselect 83 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 2: about fifteen of them who appeared to be responding well 84 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: to his spell. We know that Anne and Efia made 85 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: the cut that night because they were filmed on stage. 86 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: In the video, you can see Rosti on stage dressed 87 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: in black. First, you can see Efia smiling and giggling 88 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: until Rosti gives her a light tap on the back 89 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: of the head, and then she slumps forward in what 90 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: looks like a state of hypnosis. Next, you can see 91 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: Anne facing Rosti as he tickles a small doll that 92 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: seems to trigger her to start scratching her face. She 93 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: appears to be visibly annoyed and seems to tell him 94 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 2: to stop. After the show, both Anne and Effia were 95 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: captured on security cameras walking towards the exit of the 96 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: casino before midnight. They were supposed to catch the tram 97 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: at eleven forty five that would take them all the 98 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 2: way back to West ind but they didn't get on 99 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 2: that tram. Instead, they took the last tram at twelve 100 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: forty four am, which terminated at the station in Ostenda, 101 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: about halfway to their destination. The tram driver confirmed that 102 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: Anne and Effie were on this tram when it stopped 103 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: for end of service at one eighteen am and Ostenda. 104 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: Another employee recalled seeing them at around one twenty am 105 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: at the station, and finally, the last person to see 106 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: them was a taxi driver parked outside who reported seeing 107 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: them exit the station just after one twenty am. The 108 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: girls never made it back to the bungalow that morning. 109 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: I spoke to the father of Anne, Paul Marshal. His 110 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: memories of the disappearance are so painful that he didn't 111 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: want to have to go through a recorded interview. I 112 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: can only imagine the heartache that Paul, his wife Betty, 113 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: and their whole family must feel. Their lives were turned 114 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: upside down that summer, and still now twenty five years later, 115 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: the memories and the pain are still vivid. Paul agreed 116 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: to have his words read by an interpreter. What you'll 117 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: hear now, this. 118 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 7: Was Anne's first time on holiday without any parents. My 119 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 7: wife Betty and I were initially hesitant about the idea. 120 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 7: I remember Anne said, Dad, I'm almost eighteen, and after 121 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 7: thinking on it, we decided to let her take the trip. 122 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 7: Anne was very responsible and she was so excited about 123 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 7: this trip with her friends. On the day she left, 124 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 7: I dropped her off at the train station with her bike. 125 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 6: And huge backpack. She was so happy. 126 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 7: I'll never forget the pure joy radiating from her face 127 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 7: that day. A few days later, I got all around 128 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 7: nine forty five at night from one of her friends. 129 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 7: The friend explained that Anne and another girl, Afia, hadn't 130 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 7: returned home after attending a show the previous evening. All 131 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 7: of the kids were worried sick because it wasn't like 132 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 7: Anne or Afia to just decide to stay out all 133 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 7: night and the next day. They had tried to report 134 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 7: it to the police in west Enda, but they weren't 135 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 7: taken seriously, so finally they decided to call the parents. 136 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 7: I was really calm and lucid at the time. It 137 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 7: surprised me. I called the mother of the other missing 138 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 7: girl and we reported the disappearance to the local police 139 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 7: in our town. After filling out the report, we drove 140 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 7: to the coast, leaving it around three o'clock in the morning. 141 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 7: I think we arrived at the bungalow around five am. 142 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 7: I remember feeling like an intruder, but the other kids 143 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 7: were happy to see us. They were all really worried. 144 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 7: There wasn't really much to say. Anne and Afia had 145 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 7: left to go see a show and simply didn't return. 146 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 7: I took a break to lie down on Anne's bed 147 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 7: in the bungalow to gather my thoughts. I found Anne's 148 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 7: cherished little stuff Snoopy on the pillow. She'd had it 149 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 7: since she was a little girl and still brought it 150 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 7: with her everywhere. The little ribbon around Snoopy's neck was 151 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 7: still there. It had a note attached in her handwriting, 152 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 7: offering a reward of one hundred francs for Snoopy's safe 153 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 7: return in casey went missing. It was at that moment 154 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 7: that it really hit me. Something terrible must have happened 155 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 7: to Anne. That evening, we visited the casino where the 156 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 7: girls went to the show. Security cameras had captured images 157 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 7: of the girls after the show in the casino lobby. 158 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 7: It was very hard to look. At these last images, 159 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 7: Anne looked really vacant and she was holding her hands strangely. 160 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 7: It didn't make sense for them to be in the 161 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 7: lobby at this point. Most people use a different exit 162 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 7: when shows are over, and the direction that they were 163 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 7: walking in was the opposite direction of the trend that 164 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 7: they were supposed to catch. The actual show itself was 165 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 7: also filmed, and later I watched the whole thing. It 166 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 7: was very upsetting Anne. And if you are on stage 167 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 7: and they appear to be hypnotized, at one point they're 168 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 7: eating lemons that they've been told were peaches. I realized 169 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 7: this must have been why Anne was holding her hands 170 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 7: strangely in the security camera video, as if she were 171 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 7: holding the lemon from the show. In the last images 172 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 7: of Anne during the show, you can see her reacting 173 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 7: to the magician tickling a little doll. She was rubbing 174 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 7: her face and yelled stop. 175 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: She looked confused and upset. 176 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 7: I couldn't help but think that the hypnosis had messed 177 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 7: them up somehow, or maybe they weren't properly woken up 178 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 7: from their hypnotic state. 179 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: Imagine the confusion the parents must have been going through. 180 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: Suddenly they get a call that their daughters have been 181 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: missing for more than twenty four hours. The last images 182 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: they see are of their daughters being hypnotized and then 183 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: meandering around a casino lobby near midnight, looking confused. Paul 184 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 2: wondered if their disappearance was related to the hypnosis. That 185 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: they weren't properly woken up from their hypnotic state, but 186 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: is that possible. I spoke to one of the world's 187 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: leading experts in hypnosis, Doctor David Spiegel, studied medicine at 188 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: Harvard and as a professor and chair at the Stanford 189 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 2: University School of Medicine. He also actively practices psychiatry at 190 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: Stanford Healthcare. Andy created a digital hypnosis program and app 191 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: called Reverie Health. 192 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 8: Hypnosis is just a state of highly focused attention. It's 193 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 8: something like getting so caught up in a good movie 194 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 8: or a play that you forget you're watching the movie 195 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 8: or the play, and you enter the imagined world. It's 196 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 8: been called believed in imagination. And we know from functional 197 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 8: magnetic resonance imaging studies that when people go into a 198 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 8: state of hypnosis, they turn down activity in a part 199 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 8: of the brain that is called the salience network. That 200 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 8: part of the brain that causes you to worry should 201 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 8: I be thinking about this rather than that? And instead 202 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 8: you allow yourself to just immerse yourself in whatever it 203 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 8: is you're focusing on. 204 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: If you're in that state of hypnosis, as you just explained, 205 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 2: are you aware of yourself or are you not aware 206 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: of yourself? 207 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 8: Usually, well, that's an interesting question, Matt. We found also 208 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 8: that the part of the brain that is thinking and 209 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 8: planning is relatively disconnected from the part of the brain 210 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 8: that is self aware. We call that dissociation. So you're 211 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 8: doing it, but you're not necessarily aware of yourself doing it. 212 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 8: You're not monitoring yourself. You're just experiencing it, and that 213 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 8: allows you to experience it more thoroughly. That's what good 214 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 8: actors and actresses do, is that they lose themselves in 215 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 8: the part. They become the other person and set aside 216 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 8: their own personal identity. 217 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 6: Can hypnosis be dangerous? 218 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 8: Well, you know, anything that has the power to help 219 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 8: has the power to hurt. It can help people take 220 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 8: on a new point of view, give up old ideas. 221 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 8: The fact that you're setting aside your salience, your view 222 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 8: of what might be a problem or dangerous means, and 223 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 8: in a sense in hypnosis, you're more gullible, You're more 224 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 8: willing to take on the instruction of someone who is 225 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 8: conducting the hypnosis if they are, and less likely to 226 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 8: judge and evaluate it. So if somebody is doing something 227 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 8: that is irresponsible or even dangerous, you're more likely to 228 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 8: go along with it. 229 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: What about group hypnosis or hypnosis shows where you have 230 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 2: a hypnotist to claims or attempts to hypnotize a large 231 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: group audience at the same time. What do you think 232 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: about that? In general? 233 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 8: I'm not a big fan of hypnosis shows. I think 234 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 8: it can be used dangerously. I've known of situations where 235 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 8: people were left in a hypnotic state and were somewhat 236 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 8: confused or upset. And there's one trick that all of 237 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 8: the stage hypnotists use that the people don't realize. They'll 238 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 8: start out running a series of people through the initial steps, 239 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 8: and what they're doing is screening for the fifteen to 240 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 8: twenty percent of the population who are extremely hypnotizable, and 241 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 8: those are the ones they keep up on the stage 242 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 8: for all the fancy tricks, and they excuse the other 243 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 8: people who are less hypnotizable. I don't want people to 244 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 8: think that by and large, hypnosis is dangerous and you 245 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 8: get stuck in a hypnotic state and never come out. 246 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 8: I've never lost a patient in a state of self hypnosis, 247 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 8: and I've used it about seven thousand people in my career. However, 248 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 8: there are situations, especially for highly hypnotizable people, if they 249 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 8: are not helped to exit the state, and if they're 250 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 8: not familiar with it, they may wind up in a 251 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 8: hypnotic like state for some period of time, normally till 252 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 8: they go to bed and go to sleep, and in 253 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:16,119 Speaker 8: that state they may be less critical, less likely to evaluate, 254 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 8: for example, evaluate the potential of danger than they would ordinarily. 255 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: So Anne and Ifia were certainly in the highly hypnotizable 256 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: category he describes, because we know that they were selected 257 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: in the smaller group of people to be part of 258 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 2: the main act. According to doctor Spiegel, it is possible 259 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: that Anne and Efia could have been in a more 260 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: vulnerable state than normal after the show. It might help 261 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 2: to explain their erratic movements between when the show ended 262 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: at eleven fifteen pm and when they were last seen 263 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: more than two hours later, around one thirty am. We'll 264 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: get into this in a moment but first let's hear 265 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: from the family of the other girl who went me, 266 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 2: Effia Lambres. Jean Lombrex is Efia's father. His partner, Else 267 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: Schures agreed to speak with me about what John was 268 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: going through around the time of the disappearance. Else is 269 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 2: an impressive woman who speaks four languages and carries herself 270 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: with class and dignity. I asked her about Jean Lambres 271 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 2: at the time his daughter Efia went missing. 272 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 9: You see, at that time, jeh was forty seven years 273 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 9: old on the twenty third, So the day after, Jean 274 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 9: received a phone call from If his mother. You need 275 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 9: to know that John and If his mother, they had 276 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 9: divorced seven years prior to this event. So If his 277 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 9: mother called Jean and she told him that if you 278 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 9: had not returned to the bungalow the day before after 279 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 9: having visited a show in Blankenberge. Now that was a 280 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 9: very strange message, and obviously Jean I immediately knew that 281 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 9: something was very very wrong. He knew his daughter If 282 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 9: he had a very good understanding with both of her parents. 283 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 9: They trusted one another, that was no problem. He was 284 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 9: overwhelmed actually with grief, but also with fear because you 285 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 9: need to know that several years prior to this, he 286 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 9: also lost a baby's son, a two year old son 287 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 9: who died from a disease. 288 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: I wasn't aware that John Lombricks had also lost a 289 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 2: son when I started this project. We all encounter a 290 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: misfortune in life, but some people really get more than 291 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: their fair share of tragedy. A friend of mine lost 292 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 2: his child at a young age and then went through 293 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: a divorce. He was never the same and eventually ended 294 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: up taking his own life. Most of us will, thankfully 295 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: never understand what it's like to lose al. To lose 296 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: a second child is an especially cruel twist of fate. 297 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 2: Jean has gone through some incredibly dark tunnels in his life. 298 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 2: I'm happy that he's met such a great and positive 299 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 2: person else. She's really helped me to explore some of 300 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 2: the darker edges of this case. I asked her if 301 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 2: she thought there were aspects of the disappearance that weren't 302 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: completely followed up. 303 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 9: Yes, in my opinions, certainly there are leads that would 304 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 9: have needed more investigation. For instance, a few days before 305 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 9: she disappeared, it was early morning hours of Sunday, A 306 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 9: group of the friends went to Newport, a little town 307 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 9: a bit further. They went there by bicycle. They had 308 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 9: a few drinks at a terrace, and then the bar 309 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 9: owner of that terrace suggested they'd go out and have 310 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 9: some more drinks other bars. 311 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: The minimum drinking age in Belgium is only sixteen, so 312 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't unusual for a group of teenagers to hit 313 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 2: the bars. 314 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 9: Okay, if he and two of her friends joined this adult, 315 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 9: this bar owner and a friend of his, and they 316 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 9: visited a few more bars, had some drinks, and afterwards 317 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 9: the bar owner took the girls in his jeep. He 318 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 9: took them back to their bungalow. Okay, he put them 319 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 9: back home, and when they said goodbye, he even gave 320 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 9: them a few bottles of I don't remember what it was, 321 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 9: a liqua anyway, alcoholic drinks. 322 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 6: Okay. 323 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 9: Then Sunday nothing happened. But on Monday night, if you 324 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 9: went for a walk with a friend, and they walked 325 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 9: through the dunes, and then again, all of a sudden, 326 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 9: she saw this man that she had met in Newport, 327 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 9: and I was she felt very strange about it. This man, 328 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 9: again in his jeep, had drinks. He offered them drinks 329 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 9: to Afia to her friend, and actually he wanted if 330 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 9: his friend to drink a lot of alcohol, okay, and 331 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 9: if he was very, very upset about what was happening. 332 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 9: In the end, he agreed to drive them back to 333 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 9: their bungalow again on Monday night. But if he told 334 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 9: her friends that she was not confident. She was upset. 335 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 9: She was actually scared of this man who acted weirdly. 336 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 9: He was trying to impose himself on her. He was 337 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 9: harassing between brackets her and she did not at all 338 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 9: feel comfortable about it. 339 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 6: Was this man a grown man or was he. 340 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 9: A Yes, certainly he was a grown man. He was 341 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 9: the tenant of this bar in Newport where they had 342 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 9: their first drinks, okay. And then actually the police investigated 343 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 9: this Newport guy. They questioned him, they even observed him, 344 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 9: but they came to the conclusion that there was a 345 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 9: mistake and that he was not the man that Avia 346 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 9: and her friend had met on Monday night in the 347 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 9: dunes during their walk. So that was it. The investigation 348 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 9: stopped there. 349 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 2: And what about the friends that uh were there and 350 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 2: heard if you talk about this man were what did 351 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: they think? Did they believe that the police were wrong 352 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: about that and that this had to be the guy. 353 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 9: Or of course, I mean when she returned to the bungalow, 354 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 9: if you had told her friends, many of her friends, 355 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 9: what had happened, and that she was upset about it, 356 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 9: so the friends could come to no other conclusion that 357 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 9: she really had met this Newport guy in the Junes. Again, Yeah, 358 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 9: that's right. 359 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 2: And of course she was out with him quite a 360 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: long time the previous night, so it's hard to believe 361 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 2: that she could mistaken this person for a whole nother person. 362 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: It seems strange to me. 363 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 9: I think. I think it is absolutely impossible that she 364 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 9: was mistaken. There's one more element. She was very much 365 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 9: interested in cars. If so, she described the car, and 366 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 9: she would never ever have been wrong in describing a 367 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 9: car because she was very interested in cars. She knew 368 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 9: everything about it, so that was apart from the person 369 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 9: that she ad met. She also described the car mentioned 370 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 9: it to her friends. So in my humble opinion, there 371 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 9: can be no doubt about the fact that if you 372 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 9: had met this Newport guy in the. 373 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 2: Tunes, it does seem very suspicious that just before disappearing, 374 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: if you got bad vibes from a man who was 375 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: hanging out with these younger kids and trying to get 376 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: them drunk. Else continues, she tells me about another lead. 377 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: It may sound similar, but this lead involves another bar 378 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: and man who's a hotel owner in Blunkenberg. 379 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 9: There is another very very worrying connection, and that is 380 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 9: the fact that the girls were seen on the night 381 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 9: of their disappearance. They were seen very close to and 382 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 9: even in front of a so called Hotel Brazil in Blankenberger. 383 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 9: They had just assisted a show in the casino, they 384 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,959 Speaker 9: left the casino and then they were seen by several 385 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 9: witnesses in front of this hotel, so called Hotel Brazil, 386 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 9: which in fact was not a hotel, a regular hotel. 387 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 9: It was actually a bar, some kind of a brothel. 388 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 9: And the owner of this bar was known to the police. 389 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 9: He was known for human trafficking, he was known for prostitution, 390 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 9: he was known for keeping illegal arms, so he was 391 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 9: very much into criminal affairs. Okay, now, what happened. We're 392 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 9: talking about the twenty second of August. But as you know, 393 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 9: two months prior to that, two little girls disappeared in 394 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 9: Grassologne in the Liege area, and one witness in this 395 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 9: case wrote a letter to the police saying that he 396 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 9: had seen at the spot where the girls presumably were 397 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 9: taken a red car, and he also mentioned the license plate. Now, 398 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 9: the fact is that this license plate belonged to a 399 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 9: friend of this bar owner in Blankenberger, the owner of 400 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 9: Hotel Brazil. But moreover, this friend of his with a 401 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 9: license plate that was seen in Grasslona also stayed at 402 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 9: the Hotel Brazil during the summer of nineteen ninety five. 403 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 9: So eventually this bar owner he was questioned by the police. 404 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 9: He was questioned the first time on the first of 405 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 9: October nineteen ninety six, and then one time or a 406 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 9: second time on the sixteenth of October. But after that 407 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 9: he actually vanished from the earth. So he left. He 408 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 9: left Blankemberger. He announced to the local authorities that he 409 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 9: would go to Germany, but in Germany there was no 410 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 9: trace of him left. So in Belgium the detectives could 411 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 9: take no further action. He was not involved in the 412 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 9: investigation anymore. 413 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: Remember that mysterious red car in episode one. Could it 414 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: be a coincidence that the license plate number reported by 415 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 2: the doctor and liege after the disappearance of Julian Melissa 416 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 2: is almost an exact match to a license plate that 417 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 2: leads right to one of the last places Anne and 418 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: Efia were seen alive. It's a bit confusing, so let's 419 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: summarize the facts. 420 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 6: At this point. 421 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: More than one witness claims to have seen Anne and 422 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: Effia after the hypnotist show in front of the Hotel 423 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 2: Brazil or nearby in the same street in Blankenbega. The 424 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 2: owner of this hotel and bar had previously been charged 425 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: with engaging in prostitution and human trafficking. A friend of 426 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 2: the hotel and bar owner, who is staying at the 427 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: Hotel Brazil when Anne and Efi went missing, owns a 428 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 2: car with a license plate that's almost in a exact 429 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: match to a license plate identified by a witness of 430 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: a suspicious car in Grasselogna under the bridge where Julian 431 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 2: Melissa disappeared. After the owner of the Hotel Brazil was 432 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: questioned by police, he disappeared from Belgium and was never 433 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 2: seen again, despite police searches in Belgium and Germany, where 434 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: he said he was relocating. To this day, there are 435 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 2: still questions about this man's potential involvement. One of the 436 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: witnesses who claimed to have seen Anne an Effia in 437 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: front of the Hotel Brazil. Was a butcher named Eric 438 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: van Dam who had his shop and home right next 439 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: to the hotel. I wanted to speak with him, but 440 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 2: unfortunately he passed away since but I was actually able 441 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 2: to track down his son, Dirk van Dam, who agreed 442 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: to speak with me. This is the first time he's 443 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 2: ever been recorded speaking about this. Dirk is a jovial 444 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: man in his early fifties. He has red hair and 445 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 2: a sturdy build and speaks with the sort of earnest 446 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: directness that you often find in the Dutch speaking region 447 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: of Flanders. He had a lot to say about the 448 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: Hotel Brazil and its owner. At this point, I don't 449 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: want to accuse or implicate anyone without deeper investigation, so 450 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: I've bleeped out the name of the man he's talking about. 451 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 3: It's somebody who left a very deep psychological imprint to 452 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 3: me in my life. As you know, or my father 453 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 3: was a butcher at his own butcher shop in Blankenberg 454 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 3: at the time of the disappearing of an an Athia. 455 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 3: My father thought that he had seen on an Athia 456 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 3: at the Hotel Brazil, which was next door the butcher 457 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 3: shop and the house where my father lived. The hotel 458 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: Brazil at the time was owned by and my father 459 00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 3: came in conflicts with this person us At a certain time, 460 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 3: he found a young woman outside of his front door, 461 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 3: because the two entrances of the houses were next to 462 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: each other, literally next to each other, and he found 463 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 3: outside the front door of his house, he found a 464 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: young woman, a Brazilian woman, crying and who had been beaten, 465 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 3: and my father took the woman inside, and it turned 466 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 3: out that this woman had been fetched from Brazil by 467 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: whose wife I recall I think was Brazilian, and she 468 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: had been brought to Belgium with the expectation that she 469 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: would have work, but in reality it was meant for prostitution, 470 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: and mister had taken all documents, passport so that he 471 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 3: controlled this woman. My father then contacted the police and 472 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 3: the police went inside the house, found another woman and 473 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 3: also found weapons in the house, and as a result 474 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 3: of that was put to jail for a certain time. Afterwards, 475 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 3: we had a lot of problems with the man. If 476 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: we went outside, if we showed our faces at each time, 477 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 3: we were stocked. Everybody came to our house was stocked 478 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 3: because of that was the situation with the Brazilian woman. 479 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 6: What can you tell me about him as a person? 480 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 3: For me, it was a psychopaths. I think that's the 481 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 3: correct description of the man, because a psychopath is somebody 482 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 3: who understands emotions, who manipulates. So it's very good at 483 00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 3: manipulating people. But it's really inside is a old hearted man. 484 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 3: And I think that's the best way to describe this man, 485 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 3: because he could be friendly to people and at the 486 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 3: same time, or in a split second, be very aggressive 487 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: to me or to somebody else, enjoying the fear that 488 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 3: he spreads when he did those things. 489 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: Did he actually you talk about stalking? Did he ever 490 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 2: attack you or your father? 491 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 6: Yes, yes, yes, yes yes. 492 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 3: For instance, we had a garage at the other side 493 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 3: of the street where we parked the car. It was 494 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 3: very simple. I only had to go to the garage, 495 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 3: and he often came across the street with somebody else 496 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: to physically attack me. 497 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 6: So he attacked you physically more than one time? 498 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes all the time. 499 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 6: And with other people too, or yeah. 500 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 3: Yeah it happened with other people. It also happened one 501 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 3: time that my father drove out of the garage, and 502 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 3: my father wasn't a big man. He was one meter 503 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 3: seventy that a very big man, a German Man opened 504 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 3: the door, smiled and said he took my father by 505 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 3: the just and said he shoffered us, I will do that, 506 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 3: which showed the intention of harming my father a grave 507 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 3: dangerous way. His whole being was. It was a really 508 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 3: in deep and evil man. 509 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: Really, what was this relationship with his Brazilian wife? 510 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 3: Will I won't say this from who I know it, 511 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 3: matt I will I will tell you in another time, 512 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 3: but from good source that his wife was very scared 513 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 3: of him, so that she feared him as well. 514 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: And when you heard that he left the country very 515 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 2: suddenly after all of this came out, did you think 516 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: that he could be the kind of guy who would 517 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 2: be involved and you know, abduct children or something like that. 518 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 3: I have no doubt, no doubt at all that he 519 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: might be involved, no doubts about that. 520 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: So who is this mysterious man and what can we 521 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: find out about him? Is he alive? If so, it 522 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 2: doesn't appear he's in Belgium. Maybe he's in Germany or Brazil. 523 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: If he is alive, it'd be interesting to find him 524 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: and question him about his friend with the red car 525 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: and the girl's disappearance. At the time, no one thought 526 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: that the two disappearances in these vastly different regions of 527 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: Belgium were related. One thing is for sure, even to 528 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 2: this day, twenty five years later, the families of Anne 529 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 2: and Effia would like to know what happened between the 530 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: time the Hypnotist show ended and their girls were last seen. 531 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: The show ended at around eleven to fifteen pm, so 532 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: they would have had plenty of time catch the last 533 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: tram at eleven forty four pm. Their friends who had 534 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: previously attended the show specifically warned them not to miss 535 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: this tram because it was the last one that went 536 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 2: all the way back to Westenda where they were staying. 537 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: Maybe they just missed it, but you'd have expected them 538 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: to take the next tram leaving at twelve fourteen am. 539 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: But they didn't take that one either. They took the 540 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 2: last one, leaving at twelve forty four am that ended 541 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: service at Ostenda at one eighteen am, where they were 542 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: last seen by a taxi driver outside the station. What 543 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: we're in in ef youa doing in the two hours 544 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: between when the show ended and they were last seen 545 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: and what happened to them in Ostenda before they vanished. 546 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 2: Now there were four sets of parents desperately looking for 547 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: their children in two very different parts of the country. Unfortunately, 548 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: more parents would soon join this list. Next time, on 549 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: La Montre. 550 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 10: The other at around nine am, the phone rang and 551 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 10: Captain Ballar informed me that a fourteen year old girl 552 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 10: went missing the previous evening in the village of Bear Tree. 553 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 5: A colleague of mine, Fred vor Nambussa, and all the journalists. 554 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 5: He published a book in those days. The title was 555 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 5: young Girls Don't Disappear just like that, and it was 556 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 5: a perfect way of expressing what we all felt because 557 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,959 Speaker 5: every summer there were young girls getting killed or disappeared, right, 558 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 5: and there was a very strange and difference among the people, 559 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 5: but among the police as well. 560 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 4: Really neat, I brought together the parents and the authorities 561 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 4: who have been criticizing face to face. You have to 562 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 4: note that the judge appointed you oversee the investigation left 563 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 4: for a five week vacation a few days after being appointed, 564 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 4: as luck. 565 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 10: Would have it, by a young man who had given 566 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 10: us information on Monday. I thought he remembered part of 567 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 10: a license plate number. 568 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 6: LEA. 569 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 2: Monstra is a production of tenderfoot TV and iHeart Radio, 570 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 2: hosted and executive produced by me Matt Graves, produced by 571 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 2: Thomas Resimont of Bubble Sound. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay 572 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 2: are executive producers on the behalf of tenderfoot TV with 573 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 2: producer Makeup and Vanity Set. Matt Frederick and Alex Williams 574 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 2: are executive producers on the behalf of iHeartRadio with producer 575 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: Trevor Young. Original music by Jay Ragsdale, Sound design by 576 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: Cooper Skinner and Thomas Resimont, mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner. 577 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 6: Cover design by Trevor La. 578 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 2: Monstra includes archival audio from SONYMA, RTBF Archives and CNN Archives. 579 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Backmedia and Marketing Station sixteen, Jean Savigna, 580 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 2: and the teams at iHeartRadio and tenderfoot TV. Find us 581 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 2: on social media at Monster Underscore pod. For more podcasts 582 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 583 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.