Speaker 1: This is Out of the Shadows, a podcast about America's
Speaker 1: tangled history of immigration. I'm Patti Rodriguez America LINDO. Last season,
Speaker 1: we tackled Ronald Reagan's nineteen eighty six Amnesty Act. This season,
Speaker 1: we're tracing the origins of DACA, or Deferred Action for
Speaker 1: Childhood Arrivals, a contentious executive order to protect on documentary
Speaker 1: young people from being.
Speaker 2: Deported issued by former President Barack Obama in twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: DACA was meant to be a temporary stop gap on
Speaker 2: a broken immigration system. It was like putting a bucket
Speaker 2: under a leaky roof, But with multiple Supreme Court challenges
Speaker 2: and looming presidential elections, the roof feels like it may
Speaker 2: collapse at any moment, impacting the US economy and American
Speaker 2: culture as we know it.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, the future.
Speaker 2: Of millions of lives aims in the balance.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Out of the Shadows, Dreamers. In twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: a year after DOCA was announced, many people, including those
Speaker 1: who fought to get President Obama to issue the DOCA
Speaker 1: executive order, felt the administration wasn't doing enough to stop deportations.
Speaker 1: Enter Lisabet Matteo, Lulu Martinez, Marcos of Adra, and Mohammed
Speaker 1: mo Abdullahi. After months of planning and years of organizing,
Speaker 1: this daring group of undocumented organizers embarked on their biggest
Speaker 1: and most dangerous demonstration yet.
Speaker 2: The mission bring home six undocumented dreamers who are now
Speaker 2: living in Mexico and could not benefit from DACA, Adrea Navias,
Speaker 2: Sefreno Santiago Gladiamao, Luis Leone, and Maria Yes Venice. The
Speaker 2: campaign was called hashtag bring Them Home and was designed
Speaker 2: to accomplish its goals using the pressures of the press,
Speaker 2: social media, and some good old fashioned do the right thing.
Speaker 2: Mohammed stayed back in the US to coordinate the mission,
Speaker 2: and the rest of the group met at the Tomales,
Speaker 2: Mexico border dressed in cap and gowns to bring attention
Speaker 2: to the immigration crisis and those who were left out
Speaker 2: by DACA. They were all arrested and held in captivity
Speaker 2: for seventeen days. This is their story.
Speaker 1: Told by them.
Speaker 4: My name is Mohammed, usually just go by Mo only.
Speaker 3: My name is Claudia Amado. I am from Tijuana, Mexico
Speaker 3: and I lived in Wichita, Kansas.
Speaker 5: My name is lisped Matteo. I was born and raised
Speaker 5: in Wahaka, Mexico, in a small town called Fantomaslant. I
Speaker 5: lived there until I was fourteen. Ever since I can remember,
Speaker 5: I will always tell my parents I want to be
Speaker 5: some an attorney. And even though we grew up in
Speaker 5: a small, you know, ural community, and I had never
Speaker 5: met an attorney in my life, my parents always said, yes,
Speaker 5: you're going to be someone attorney. They never said no.
Speaker 5: They never encouraged me. But of course I grew up
Speaker 5: and they realized it's going to be impossible for us
Speaker 5: to pay for this. I knew it was a document.
Speaker 5: I mean, I knew how that I have papers. I
Speaker 5: crossed the border and it was an as pleasant experience, right,
Speaker 5: But I didn't understand how difficult life was going to
Speaker 5: be being an adostmenter person. I mean I became an
Speaker 5: dostment at Agel fourteen. What led to the dream nine,
Speaker 5: I think was years and years of organizing and trying
Speaker 5: different things and being, you know, playing the game of
Speaker 5: I'm going to tell you my story and hopefully that's
Speaker 5: going to make you feel something, and I'm going to
Speaker 5: beg and I'm going to really show how American I
Speaker 5: am so Dream nine is or was a project that
Speaker 5: was organized by the National Thing within us alives. So
Speaker 5: the National Resuth Alliance was an organization that came out
Speaker 5: of United with Dreams. I was at that first meeting
Speaker 5: when United Dream was performed of an organization. That's where
Speaker 5: I met Muhammad and other adoption medium people.
Speaker 4: Our goal was in power, educate, escalate. Our focus was
Speaker 4: undocumented folks, those directly affected by the issue. The goal
Speaker 4: was all these like anti immigrant laws and legislations that
Speaker 4: were passing. If those members in the state houses or
Speaker 4: wherever actually had a population of undocumented folks that were
Speaker 4: not afraid of.
Speaker 6: Them, that would confront them, that would be in their office,
Speaker 6: this type of legislation would not exist. Maybe that was
Speaker 6: our goal around that time, was to get more folks
Speaker 6: on actually fighting making everyone undeportable.
Speaker 5: Dreams ended up sailing in twenty ten, so a month
Speaker 5: later we formed the National MOVEMTIC Alliance. We had done
Speaker 5: a student or actually several students. We're undocumenting young people
Speaker 5: essentially force the government to arrest us. We knew that
Speaker 5: then documenting young people, the community that we have formed
Speaker 5: was ready to fight and could actually stop our own duputation.
Speaker 5: So as a result of that, we continue to do
Speaker 5: more more and more people will call it radical. I
Speaker 5: don't necessarily like that works. Other people will be anything
Speaker 5: radical about it. We were just kind of dramatizing, but
Speaker 5: was already happening in our community. Young people were being
Speaker 5: detained and deported, parents will betained and reported in families.
Speaker 5: The entire time was was being destroyed. So we wanted
Speaker 5: to use the privilege that we had as undocumingly young
Speaker 5: people and share our stories. There were a lot of
Speaker 5: promises and different presidents and lected officials that will come
Speaker 5: and talk to us about immigration about how they wanted
Speaker 5: to pack the dreamas and all kinds of things, and
Speaker 5: then really nothing happening except thousands of thousands of repretations
Speaker 5: that some of them touched us personally, including my family.
Speaker 5: So I think we just said, Okay, we're going to
Speaker 5: we're going to go and stuff support and bring back
Speaker 5: other Dreamers. So I wanted to come home because this
Speaker 5: is their home and we're going to prove a point
Speaker 5: and we're going to pressure the government and getting warning.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So Dream nine. The way that we operated was every
Speaker 4: action that we did sort of led to the next action,
Speaker 4: And so the concept of asylum became something that we
Speaker 4: started becoming more familiar with, like the different like levers
Speaker 4: within requesting asylum that acted sort of as discretion or
Speaker 4: stay of removal sort of in that same concept. And
Speaker 4: then through doing that work, we also started having we
Speaker 4: were very like angry people, I got to say that
Speaker 4: of like, we had some cases that got deported that
Speaker 4: we were really fucking pissed off about of how dare
Speaker 4: the Obama administration deport X y Z person? And so
Speaker 4: those personal grudges really is what drove us to find solutions.
Speaker 4: And so we fell on this sort of concept after
Speaker 4: doing like three or four infiltrations of different detention centers
Speaker 4: of like what happens to someone when they are deported
Speaker 4: from the US. And so yeah, we set up this
Speaker 4: campaign where we could find dreamers in Mexico or other
Speaker 4: parts of the world that wanted to come back to
Speaker 4: the US and we would sort of do this public
Speaker 4: action traditional caps and gowns, and in order to make
Speaker 4: this action successful, we would have to send some of
Speaker 4: our folks from the US to self deport essentially, because
Speaker 4: we very much believed and we can't ask anybody else
Speaker 4: to do something that we're not willing to do ourselves
Speaker 4: and take those risks personally ourselves.
Speaker 3: In twenty thirteen, they reach out to me and they
Speaker 3: asked me if I wanted to join us Emble disobedience,
Speaker 3: which I immediately say yes. They called me one Thursday
Speaker 3: and a Friday morning, I was already on a plane
Speaker 3: with my son, who is a US citizen, flying to Nogalist,
Speaker 3: Arizona or Mexico. First, even though my identity is one
Speaker 3: of those like the Dreamers, because of my age, politically
Speaker 3: didn't fit into it. So nobody expected my case to
Speaker 3: be successful when DAKA came up, even some of my
Speaker 3: sisters are worked the US by one year. They instead
Speaker 3: part of that action was inspired on like why are
Speaker 3: many of us left out? I mean that the goal
Speaker 3: was directed to President Obama right where at the time
Speaker 3: that he was saying like we're only deporting criminals, and
Speaker 3: then we were just like bringing the fact that that
Speaker 3: wasn't true.
Speaker 4: I mean at that time, like looking back, yeah, we
Speaker 4: were some brave kids.
Speaker 1: When we come back, the dream nine arrive in Nogles,
Speaker 1: Mexico to stage one of the most dangerous demonstrations in
Speaker 1: the history of the immigration rights movement. That's after the break.
Speaker 2: It's late July and twenty thirteen, and the dream Nine
Speaker 2: are preparing to launch one of the riskiest acts of
Speaker 2: civil disobedience and immigration rights history. They walk arm in
Speaker 2: arm to the US point of entry in Nogales, Mexico.
Speaker 2: They wore the graduation caps and gowns, an un official
Speaker 2: symbol of the Dreamer movement meant to expose the flaws
Speaker 2: in the current immigration system. Here's Lizabeth Matteo again.
Speaker 5: They were taking a successity right away. So when we
Speaker 5: present ourselves, you know, we were actually had a pie style.
Speaker 5: We had something to obviously legally entry to the US,
Speaker 5: and so we said no, we have this letter basically
Speaker 5: saying hey, like we're here to speak humanitarian role, we
Speaker 5: have family in the US, we want to go back
Speaker 5: to homes, blah blah blah. As soon as each one
Speaker 5: of us arrived at the gates, they officed their role
Speaker 5: taper tapping down in pancfes. So we were basically changed
Speaker 5: and put in a an a van. The events are
Speaker 5: ready to wait for us, right, so we didn't really
Speaker 5: have to stand there and see what. You know, see,
Speaker 5: the guards tried to figure out what was going on.
Speaker 5: They were prepared, you know, we kind of gave their
Speaker 5: heads up by doing a press release and then media
Speaker 5: also reach out to them asking for comment. So it
Speaker 5: was it was super fast, It was super quick. They
Speaker 5: didn't they didn't really say anything. They didn't they didn't
Speaker 5: really question us. They didn't. I don't want to say
Speaker 5: they went along with it, but I think they wanted
Speaker 5: just to remove us from the from all the media
Speaker 5: attention and all that you know, supporters as quickly as possible.
Speaker 5: So we just put up an event and drove us
Speaker 5: another place.
Speaker 3: We spent several hours at the processing center at the border,
Speaker 3: and then probably close to midnight, I want to say,
Speaker 3: they took us out and to the icebox or they
Speaker 3: called the peretta very uncomfortable kind of like a minivan
Speaker 3: with no seats. The girls were taken in one of
Speaker 3: those and the boys were taking in a different one,
Speaker 3: and we were handcaffed, super cold. And then they will
Speaker 3: like drive like crazy. They will like we need the tracks,
Speaker 3: so we were moving very uncomfortable. We bumped our heads.
Speaker 3: We will ask them to please turn off the AC
Speaker 3: and they will just start laughing or like turn the
Speaker 3: music up. It was a really bad experience. It felt
Speaker 3: like it was an eternity. Then later we found out
Speaker 3: that it was a couple hours. First night they took
Speaker 3: us to Florence in Arizona and that detention center where
Speaker 3: we only spent that night. What we heard is that
Speaker 3: the ladies they were not allowed to talk to us,
Speaker 3: so they blocked communications. So the Dream of nine we
Speaker 3: declared hunger strike. And then I think some of the
Speaker 3: women in other parts they hear that in the TV
Speaker 3: and they decided they were going to join us. And
Speaker 3: that was hard for the for the detention center, like
Speaker 3: they were not happy at all, So most of us
Speaker 3: were placed in isolation. Unfortunately, some of us just couldn't
Speaker 3: handle it that long. I think some of us started
Speaker 3: like little by little leaving that hunger strike. In my case,
Speaker 3: my sugar. They had to take me to the nurse
Speaker 3: because my sugar levels went pretty low and I had
Speaker 3: to quit that. And the only one that really was
Speaker 3: for like five days in hunger strike was.
Speaker 5: This that so I refused to eat. So we did
Speaker 5: a hunger strike because we didn't have asked to our
Speaker 5: phone or to the phone. Every time we try to
Speaker 5: place a phone call. It wouldn't go through, and I
Speaker 5: wanted to talk to my family. I wanted to talk
Speaker 5: to you know, to someone outside, and no, I'm okay,
Speaker 5: because I was worried about my parents. I was worried about,
Speaker 5: you know, my family. Eventually I was able to see
Speaker 5: them on TV because then my parents became very public
Speaker 5: and started organizing and then going around and doing an interviews.
Speaker 5: Is talking about their daughter and why she should bring me,
Speaker 5: she should come home, which is not something that we
Speaker 5: planned or that I asked them to do. I actually
Speaker 5: told them not to do any effect, but they said, no,
Speaker 5: we're gonna fight. We're gonna fight for you. So because
Speaker 5: I did the hunger strike, I refused to eat for
Speaker 5: like five days, so I was I was placed in
Speaker 5: solitary confinements and the guards will come and bring me food.
Speaker 5: And then we started making popcorns, which is not something
Speaker 5: they do, but they will, you know, they will bring
Speaker 5: like a little car and make popcorns so that I
Speaker 5: would smell the food and they will, you know, make
Speaker 5: me eat, but I refused. I only ate ut because
Speaker 5: I had to do an interview with emmigration the next day.
Speaker 5: So many attorneys said, you have to leave. You have
Speaker 5: to be losing, you have to be strong, And I said, okay,
Speaker 5: I'll eat.
Speaker 3: I think she lost like ten percent of her body
Speaker 3: mass or something.
Speaker 1: She was.
Speaker 3: I mean, she's little by mighty. I totally admire her.
Speaker 3: And I remember things were getting like so out of
Speaker 3: control that I am. I used to see her. We
Speaker 3: couldn't talk, so I used to see her and I
Speaker 3: just make sience like cut the hunger straight. We need you.
Speaker 5: So how long were you entertaining?
Speaker 3: For seventeen days?
Speaker 4: We were talking to a lot of folks, young people
Speaker 4: that had been deported or had self deported, and in
Speaker 4: Mexico or in other countries, they were not treated as equals.
Speaker 4: They couldn't go to school because they had lived in
Speaker 4: the US, they couldn't get a job, their accent, they
Speaker 4: were targeted by cartels, and so this sort of like
Speaker 4: concept of being American was what was creating a target
Speaker 4: on their backs. We came up with this idea of
Speaker 4: there's an asylum. There's five essentially race, religion, sexual orientation,
Speaker 4: particular social group. If you're a part of sort of
Speaker 4: these categories, you can claim asylum. And so we wanted
Speaker 4: to create Dreamer as a particular social group. The fact
Speaker 4: that people living in Mexico get affiliated with being American,
Speaker 4: therefore they get targeted for cartel violence other things.
Speaker 3: So what our Atturney West ask and it was humanitarian
Speaker 3: for all, and they didn't move in that direction, so
Speaker 3: they started the attorney decided that we asked for asylum,
Speaker 3: and like you know, my father was killed, my husband's
Speaker 3: brother was killed by police officers in Mexico, and my
Speaker 3: husband was kidnapped. My husband's last name is never in
Speaker 3: common in Mexico, so we were like a target for them.
Speaker 3: So we had a lot of brands, so that we
Speaker 3: moved into the asylum case and then we were taking
Speaker 3: one day to Florence to those interviews that they do,
Speaker 3: the credible fear interviews, and apparently all of us past
Speaker 3: those credible fear interviews and that's when they order our release.
Speaker 2: After the break, the Dream Nine is released from the tension.
Speaker 2: But what happened after and was it worth it stay
Speaker 2: with us? After spending seventeen days in a detention center,
Speaker 2: the Dream Nine were finally released. Here's Claudia Amado, the
Speaker 2: oldest member in the group and the only mother, remembering
Speaker 2: what it was like to be reunited with her family
Speaker 2: and reflecting on her life as an organizer.
Speaker 3: We were released and they took us into the Greyhound
Speaker 3: bus station and some family members my mom, my son
Speaker 3: definitely was the war there. And then after that, I
Speaker 3: remember we were received, They took us to a restaurant,
Speaker 3: they fed us, and then I remember was split. I
Speaker 3: don't remember all the details, but I remember a group
Speaker 3: went to a place and we were still working on
Speaker 3: the organizing side. My perspective from organizing is just like
Speaker 3: just by sharing my story right and being like even
Speaker 3: when I still talk to people and they asked me
Speaker 3: about detention, immigration attention is like, it's just giving them
Speaker 3: my perspective that not even an immigration attorney's going to
Speaker 3: keep like what happened inside. I didn't detain two times
Speaker 3: by immigration, so I know exactly like you know that
Speaker 3: they give you a three second, three minute call. I
Speaker 3: know that you have to have your ain numbers, so
Speaker 3: all those things that you have to know. And how
Speaker 3: different it was the first time that the detainment detained me,
Speaker 3: even though it was only one night, it was like
Speaker 3: a nightmer for me than when I was already prepared personally.
Speaker 3: Like I said, my son's life is totally different. Now
Speaker 3: he's married. I'm going to be a grandma, and he
Speaker 3: had to go through a lot of therapy in Mexico.
Speaker 3: His healthier here. He has a good social life and
Speaker 3: normal life that I don't think he would have it
Speaker 3: in Mexico. And again, I love Mexico, but it just
Speaker 3: wasn't for us anymore. And then I had been able
Speaker 3: to move from just being an activist or being seen
Speaker 3: as an activist as a respected woman of business here
Speaker 3: and which in our community and people know my story,
Speaker 3: people know I'm still undocumented in a way. People will
Speaker 3: call me all the time, Hey, my husband was arrested,
Speaker 3: What should I do? And just being able to help them,
Speaker 3: giving them the calm and some tools for them to
Speaker 3: fight for their cases, that just huge for me. And
Speaker 3: again all of that I learned through the action that
Speaker 3: we didn't jord Night.
Speaker 1: This incredible action by the Dream nine highlighted the urgency
Speaker 1: of addressing their legal status and demonstrated their power, contributing
Speaker 1: to the national conversation, which was covered up close and
Speaker 1: personal by two legendary journalists. One of those was Mariaino
Speaker 1: Hosa Hostel Latino USA.
Speaker 7: I just remember hearing about the Dream Nine at the
Speaker 7: very beginning and again just thinking like, wow, what kind
Speaker 7: of extraordinary human being an activist does it take to
Speaker 7: risk everything? What they did is really extraordinary. I don't
Speaker 7: like to make comparisons in terms of civil rights actions
Speaker 7: because each one of them is so important. But to me,
Speaker 7: the Dream nine have not been recognized yet. I know
Speaker 7: they will be. But they are like the people who
Speaker 7: participated in the Montgomery bus boycott. They are people who
Speaker 7: crossed the bridge in Selma, Alabama. They are the people
Speaker 7: who you know, protested the murders of the little girls
Speaker 7: in Little Rock. So we are all part of a
Speaker 7: country that says it believes in democracy. And so the
Speaker 7: dream that I just simply were carrying on that tradition.
Speaker 1: The other was Ramo's renowned journalist.
Speaker 8: I think that's incredibly important because when you were born
Speaker 8: in a house, in a family in which your parents
Speaker 8: and your grandparentsslitos, it was papass when they tell you,
Speaker 8: mikho miha, be silent, Please be silent, because that's the
Speaker 8: only way to survive. And you know something, they were right,
Speaker 8: because back then you needed to be silent in order
Speaker 8: to survive. In this country, because if you didn't, then
Speaker 8: you would be detained and you would be deported. So
Speaker 8: the idea of being silent and being invisible was very important.
Speaker 8: But the big change was to realize that the political
Speaker 8: momentum had changed, that there was the possibility to present
Speaker 8: themselves to the country in a different way, and that
Speaker 8: that strategy wasn't going to work anymore. I mean, for
Speaker 8: how long can you sustain a policy of being invisible
Speaker 8: and being silent and succeed And so being unafraid and
Speaker 8: being openly undocumented I think was incredibly important because it
Speaker 8: gave them a sense of identity. So the fact that
Speaker 8: they were out and they could tell the world I'm
Speaker 8: undocumented and I need your help and this has to change,
Speaker 8: I think was incredibly important just to be out there.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 2: The Dream nine demonstration brought a lot of attention. It
Speaker 2: was also a double edged sword for this Beth, who
Speaker 2: I dreamt of being a lawyer. Her participation in the
Speaker 2: Dream nine meant that she was banned from applying for DHAKA.
Speaker 5: So I did qualify for data, and I you know,
Speaker 5: I still say that I qualify for that, but I
Speaker 5: didn't apply for it because I knew I was going
Speaker 5: to end up being at a point, so I I
Speaker 5: just said, I'm going to wait, I'm not going to
Speaker 5: apply for DATA. I'm going to go do this thing.
Speaker 5: And that would be basically that's it. Because I had
Speaker 5: been trying to stay away from organizing for a while,
Speaker 5: but I just couldn't. And then I decided to apply
Speaker 5: to law school, and I said, Okay, well this is
Speaker 5: going to be it because I have to go to
Speaker 5: lawsuit now I have to concentrate on myself in my dream.
Speaker 5: So I didn't apply to DOCTA because I knew I
Speaker 5: was going to be leaving and doing the whole, the
Speaker 5: whole dream nine experience. So when I came back, I
Speaker 5: was facing a more proceeding then my remote proceedings for
Speaker 5: that nature week close. And then I applied for DACA.
Speaker 5: Finally was for that one. Was in law school and
Speaker 5: I waited over a year to hear I think over
Speaker 5: a year to hear from USCIS, and I heard from
Speaker 5: us AS the week after I graduated from law school,
Speaker 5: as I was studying for the bar, As I was
Speaker 5: starting my bar press, I just this letter from UCAS
Speaker 5: saying that they hadn't intend to denye. That's that because
Speaker 5: I left, but that I could explain why I should
Speaker 5: still be granted that. Spent about eight months after that,
Speaker 5: up until January twelfth, trying to trying to fight to
Speaker 5: get that guy. At some point I heard that it
Speaker 5: got denied, and then the end of her mind it
Speaker 5: wasn't denied. While we have here's another letter and of
Speaker 5: more evidence of why you should be granted that. So
Speaker 5: I was working with several members of Congress in the
Speaker 5: conclusion that they came to was that it was a
Speaker 5: political decision. That is telarly came to on on that
Speaker 5: they would probably give me back up, but if that
Speaker 5: Trump wanted it would deny me dacka because they didn't
Speaker 5: want to put Baca on jeopardy, which I mean now
Speaker 5: we know that would have made no difference, I think.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that's that's why I was denied that by
Speaker 5: the Environment Administration eight days before Trump before So for
Speaker 5: the past ten almost ten years, I've been just working
Speaker 5: to first like finished boschol Rite, passed the bar, became
Speaker 5: an attorney. I'm not gonna sit here and lie and
Speaker 5: say that it's been easy. I had a really, really
Speaker 5: difficult time after I was told that I could, I
Speaker 5: would likely not be granted back up because I had
Speaker 5: job offers, and I had a plan for my life,
Speaker 5: and I knew what I wanted to do, so I
Speaker 5: was very excited for taking the bar as favor as
Speaker 5: that sounds, I was super happy about that. I was excited,
Speaker 5: I knew what was going to come after. And then
Speaker 5: all of that just disappeared the minute I was told
Speaker 5: that they had been intensively ninety back up.
Speaker 1: Despite heroic actions and sacrifices of Lisped in the Dream nine,
Speaker 1: this country's immigration system remains broken and seemingly random to
Speaker 1: those who are stuck between the US and the countries
Speaker 1: where they came from, between documented and undocumented, and between
Speaker 1: the cracks.
Speaker 5: He'd served to be here.
Speaker 9: He came here when he was about one or two,
Speaker 9: but unfortunately the data requirements didn't match his criteria because
Speaker 9: he was too old, even though he had been here
Speaker 9: for like his whole lifetime.
Speaker 1: That's next time on Out of the Shadows. Out of
Speaker 1: the Shadows Dreamers is a Cemeto production in partnership with
Speaker 1: Iheart'smichael Duda podcast network. It's created, hosted, and executive produced
Speaker 1: by me Patti Rodriguez and Eric Galindo. This show was
Speaker 1: written by Sessa Hernandez and executive produced by Jiselle Vancis.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Arlene Santana. It's produced and edited
Speaker 1: by Brianna Flores. Our associate producer is Claudia Marti Gorena
Speaker 1: Down the Sign. Mixing and mastering by Jessica Crain Chitch
Speaker 1: and a special thanks to all Our Dreamers. Remember to
Speaker 1: subscribe to the podcast and share it. For more Michael
Speaker 1: Duda Podcast, listen to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.