WEBVTT - #054 Jason Flom with Rodney Robert 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.080 America has two point two million people in prison. If 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.200 just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.039 That's a lot of people's lives destroyed. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:18.440 If the system want to take you out of society, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.800 they will do it no matter what laws they have 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.680 to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:25.800 they're breaking the lord. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.360 Having to hear those people say that I was guilty 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.519 of a crime that I did not commit, and then 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:34.559 hear my family break down behind me and not be 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 able to do anything about it. I can't describe the 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.640 crushing weight that was. 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.680 I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.840 A lot of times we look and we see something 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:49.200 happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said. 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.600 That could never happen to me, but they can. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.000 This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.360 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. Today's guest 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:19.640 is the one and only Rodney Roberts. 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.520 Rodney Roberts was held for seventeen years for the crime 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.479 of raping a seventeen year old girl he had never met. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.960 Rodney was advised by his public defender to plead guilty. 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.520 He was told that the seventeen year old girl who 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.399 was right outside the courtroom had identified him, and if 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.360 he did not plead guilty, he was going to spend 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:42.600 the rest of his life in jail. 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.039 Rodney Roberts story a guilty plead, born a fear, a 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.000 maxed out sentence of seven years, and on the day 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.560 of release, not a ride home, but a surprise transfer 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.400 to civil commitment. It's a kind of imprisonment reserved for 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.800 just one type of offender. It has no set sentence, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.640 no guarantee of release because the state deems them too 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:08.080 dangerous to release. And the state says it's a treatment program, 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.120 but the residents call it prison. He would be held 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.760 there as an encouragible violent sex offender for a full decade, 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.000 although it would later be proven that he had been 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.440 innocent from the start. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.800 Rodney was finally released after seventeen years because he got 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.959 a lawyer who had DNA evidence. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.240 Rodney, Welcome to the show. I'm glad you're here, Thank you. 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:29.160 I'm glad to be here. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:34.360 So Rodney, this whole crazy saga of your life started 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.560 when you were seventeen, really right, yes, And up until 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.880 then your life had been what she's full, good, troubled, 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:44.519 what was your background. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.320 Actually up into them. My life was very well. I 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.239 had both parents, mother and father, and the household work. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.880 My mother she was hands on. She has a master's 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.720 degree in education. She believed in education in US learning. 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.400 I have six sisters and four brothers, so we had 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.200 a house that's a whole football team. I mean, yeah, 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.440 I was never alone. I was always well supervised. I 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.480 had no trouble as juvenile, no juvenile castration, or no 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.320 trouble in that level. I was a very good student. 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.560 You know. We went to private school from first to 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:20.280 eighth grade. So my life then was very positive, very 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.399 If I was poor, I didn't have no I wasn't 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:25.280 even aware of it because I was so well cared 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.200 for by my parents and my older brothers and sisters, 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.680 and my aunts and my uncles and the people in 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.799 the community. You know back then at that time, you know, 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.520 you had like five six mothers in the neighborhood. You 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.360 were watched by so many others that you could be 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.040 disciplined by the lady down the street and and she'd 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.120 bring you to your mother and you and then get 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.000 disciplined right in front of her and by your mother. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.760 So it was a different time than us, and the 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.840 love in the community and the household was very strong. 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:53.520 And which neighborhood was this well. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.840 Originally we grew up in the Project area on Montgomery Street, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.960 which again was different at that time. And then we 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.600 moved to a one family house up in the Wellsburg 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.400 area that's in North New Jersey, right across the street 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.800 from Valsburg Park. So I can run off my front 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:09.760 porch right into a park. 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:11.600 Up in Newark, New Jersey. 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.600 And it sounds really very sort of beautiful in a 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.080 certain way, very community oriented, nice, Like you said, a 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.120 huge family, had a huge extended family. And this is 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.120 why when I tell people, if you don't think this 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.799 can happen to you, this can happen to you, because 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.840 you didn't just paint a likely scenario for someone who's 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.680 going to end up really getting wrongly convicted twice and 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.920 serving over two decades in prison for crimes you didn't commit. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.880 So let's get into that part of the story. Because 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:40.920 when you were a kid, you were kind of hanging 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.760 out with older guys, right, and then you kind of 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.880 got blindsided because you weren't really aware of what these 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:47.599 guys were up to. 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.320 I mean, the blind side particularly came from the fact 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.000 that I grew up in so much of a people 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.720 calling out a sheltered household sheltered life, that a lot 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.039 of things go on the streets I really wasn't exposed to, 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.320 so me growing up, I would have to come in 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.200 the house early and things that natures. I thought I 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.359 was missing out on a lot of things. So I 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.320 would find little ways to sneak out the house, not 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.440 really knowing what I would getting myself into. And because 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.800 of that, I wasn't aware of what was out there. 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.839 I was more easy to be manipulated in that environment. 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.320 I'm smart, but I was stupid at the same time. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.159 Well, I wouldn't say stupid, naive that's a good word. 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.000 Naive is a much better word. I like that word 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.560 better than stupid too. So like the older guys in 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.840 the community who so much like see young guys, they 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.680 see potentially in but they seen the potential in a 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:38.640 different way. They seen a potential in like a more 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.400 negative way. How could I sharpen this guy to help 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.480 me commit my crimes and help me get over And 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:46.400 I became under that radar. 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.680 And when they approached me that they approached me like hey, man, 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.360 we like the where you're. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:51.560 Blend right in. 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.760 We just want you to do this. Just look be 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:55.880 a scout, be a lookout, just do this and do 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.960 minimum things things that I thought was really cool. You know, hey, 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.680 I'm in now, you know I'm part of the streets now, 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.599 thinking that I was going to earn the street cred. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.080 All the time I was being played because of my naiveness, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.080 of my naivete, I wasn't able to see what was 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:12.400 really going on with me. 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.880 But when you're a kid with that kind of flattery, 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.880 when an older person shows your respect and treats you 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.560 as they're equal, that can be very intoxicating and can 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.279 lead you down the road that you don't really know 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.599 you're going because you're blinded, right because you're thinking that 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.599 you're in with the cool squad or whatever. 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.920 So what happened, Well, what happened was, first I hid 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:31.880 this from my family. I wanted to add that part. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.880 They didn't know what was going on. So I separated 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.640 myself from my protection and that was a key point. 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.880 And that point where this particular day, they we were 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.840 out and they were saying, well, what was going on 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.480 out here on the avenue, which just Hakwon's avenue was 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.600 a busy street, very crime orientated, and I came back 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:51.839 and said, well, this person's doing this, and this person's 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:53.880 doing that, and that person is stopping picking up this, 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.040 and so in that course, they took action from there 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.720 and they went into and committed the crimes that they 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:06.520 committed in detail, which was robbery's, chicknapped, and sexual related offenses. 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.920 And me, because I played my role, I was charged 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.160 as a conspirator, not that I committed any defenses, but 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.840 because I acted in the capacity to acting at that age, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.920 I was also charged. I went to trial with these 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.200 individuals and was found guilty with these individuals and had 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:29.480 to serve five years alongside these individuals as a conspirator, 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.720 and my record reflected the same as this, even though 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.680 I did not participate, but as a conspirator, I was 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.160 charged the same way, and in that five years, because 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.480 of my age, I was sent to like a youth facility, 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.600 which is board in town at that time, and once 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.080 I got a certain size and they transferred me to 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.800 a larger facility, which was always the prison, who in 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.040 turn released me. Once they released me in the early 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.760 nineties ninety three, I was home at that point in 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.320 my life. I had decided that my whole life was changed. 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.120 I was never going back. I had got a good job. 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.040 I was working at Quellsmen's war up in Woolbrook Mall. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.600 I was excellent salesman for them, paying me pretty good money. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.400 Got a nice apartment up in Mount Clear, New Jersey. 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.840 Got custody of my son, who I felt was the 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.760 change in my life as well, who had left before 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.280 I was inconcentrated. His mother was pregnant, so I wasn't 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.360 even there to witness his birth. So that was a 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.000 big part of me coming home as a change man 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.960 to take responsibility of my son. Got me a nice 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.520 car and everything, and I was doing pretty well. And 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.360 as a result of doing that, I was picked up 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.440 and identified as someone who committed another offense, saying I 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.880 was a warrant was out for my arrest, saying that 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.000 you've been identified as a person who committed a sexual 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.800 related offense and a kidnapped and against my adamant de 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.320 not like, listen, it's not me. I didn't do this. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.679 I'm I didn't even do that before, but now they 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.520 had me custody. Whilst they arrested me and put me 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.360 in custody. The threat we can hold you and keep 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.080 you here for the rest of your life was real 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:09.400 to me. They had showed me that they had the 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:10.400 power to do that already. 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.240 Oh yeah, you were in a very precarious situation. I mean, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.440 seven years had gone by, your life was, as you said, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.240 your life was on track. Things are looking good, and 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.800 then this crazy thing happens. And then a lot of 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.800 a lot of weird stuff goes on, I mean, a 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.160 lot of lying, a lot of cheating the system because 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.400 they really wanted to convict you. In your case, it 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:34.199 doesn't seem like they were really that interested in finding 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.280 out who raped this woman. They were interested in pending 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.440 it on you, right, just because they had you And 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:43.200 we've seen that part of this scenario happened before. That's 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.400 not the craziest thing about your story is crazy because 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.480 it happened to you, But it's not uncommon, unfortunately, Right, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.720 But things get really crazy as we go along. 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:52.679 Well, we'll take us through this, right. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.440 Well, once I was in custody, it was really my 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.000 public defender, as they say in jail house turn my 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:02.760 public pretender who came and said to me in this 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.040 theatrical way that he had convinced me that the state 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:08.800 had this over whom evidence, that the witness was outside 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:10.920 by the way, this is my third at turned public 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.360 defender within a four month period, and that the witness 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:18.160 seen my photo and start crying uncontrollably, and they had 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:20.520 pinpointed me in that if I was gonna go to 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.560 trial and be in jail for the rest of my life. 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.760 Now at that point, I felt so overwhelmed backtracking, which 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.800 just happened to me earlier at seventeen. They said that, well, 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.160 look and we offer you a plea agreement. We're gonna 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.240 give you a seven year term and you're gonna do 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.960 two years and you'll come home. If you just plead guilty, 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.880 we're gonna dismiss the sexual lated defense and you were 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.960 downgrade the kidnapped a second degree and put on a record. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.720 No one got hurt, And so in my mind I 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.760 thought I would saving my life because I had just 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.720 left my son out there and I didn't know what 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.760 was going on. I was separated from my family. So 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.000 I took the plea agreement and I answered a plea 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.800 to a crime I didn't commit, and doing that, I 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.400 felt like I portrayed myself in a way that it 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.160 took me years to get over. And the process of that, 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.800 I was sent down to state prison to do the 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:12.600 seven year term because I went to parole, and parole 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:15.560 actually was saying that, oh, listen, you're here not just 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.040 for the kidnap, but we're here for what the police 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.319 reports are saying, for the sexual offense. And I'm like, no, 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.240 I didn't do any of that. I actually I didn't 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.120 do any of it. At this point, I'm like, I'm 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.559 I didn't do any I just played guilty, thinking trying 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.600 to save my life. Well, that sent them in a 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.000 spiral like I was in denial, and then I showed 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.959 no remorse, which you know, I could show remorse for 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:37.599 something I said not do, and that's what I was 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.559 trying to explain to them. But as a result of that, 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.320 I was denied parole maybe three times, and then I 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.640 was maxed out. And in being maxed out at me, 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:48.959 I served a full seven year terms as opposed to 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.320 two year term. But before you are released from prison, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.720 you were sent to these parole classes. So I went 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.440 to the parole classes and the pre release classes, which 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.079 I was did stellar and because I'm thinking I'm going home, 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.679 and so on the day of my release, I was 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.800 brought out to the front like every other prisoner who 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.400 was schedul to be released that day lined up, but 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.080 instead when they called everyone name, they didn't call minds. 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:17.600 So they had released all of them and left me 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:19.760 standing there in the day of the day, I had 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.280 maxed out, means that I had no more time left 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:22.480 to do. 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:23.439 But so you're there. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.160 You have your possessions, whatever your possessions were that you 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.840 had in prison, whether you had them with you, right, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.360 You're ready to go home, start your life again, see 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.120 your son, re establish your relationships with your family, the 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:35.600 whole thing. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.000 They were actually in the parking lot waiting to take 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:39.439 me home and go get something. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:40.880 Yeah, we had all. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.960 Arranged, and I mean I had, you know, grown until 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.840 more after seven years from this experience in a degree 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.560 where I felt like, now my life is really going 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.120 to be taken throl of my life and really do 0:12:53.320 --> 0:12:56.760 it right. But as opposed to being released, I was 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.760 held and transferred to with New Jersey call to a 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.679 special treatment on this because I refused to pleat acknowledgeable 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.600 guilty or admit my role in the sexual related offense. 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.360 New Jersey had passed a law called the Sexual Fund 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.480 Predat Act, which said that if they felt like a 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.120 person was still dangerous, that they could not be released. 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.640 So they civilly committed me under that pretense. So I 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.680 was taken to a facility civil commitment facility, which is 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.080 like a civil commitment like traditional However, this was like 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.640 a new hybrid facility that New Jersey had came up 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.640 with where they combined the Apartment Correction and Department Human 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.520 Service to their department who service there would provide treatment 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.800 to those that were committed. And I was held there 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:40.720 for ten years. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.120 It's not real. I mean ten years on top. It's 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.000 like it. 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.280 I think most people are listening and going, wait, wait, 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.400 but that doesn't make sense. You can't serve your sentence 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.800 and then serve another sentence that you didn't even have, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.400 which is longer a by fifty percent than your original 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.520 sentence was in the first place. And you know it's 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.120 so crazy, right, you plead innocent, they send you to prison, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:00.960 and you played guilty to send you home. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:02.679 It's so backwards. 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.439 It's like Alice in Wonderland, but in your case, that's 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.760 literally what happened. They wanted you to acknowledge your guilt. 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.080 I mean, they pulled the rug out from under you 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.559 so many different times, in so many different ways. By 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.880 now right, they had lied to you about the witness 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.400 who actually had not identified you and never did identify you, right, 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.280 and they told you that she did. You know, when 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.080 you talk about three public defenders in four months, I mean, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:29.080 it's not hard for anyone to imagine how little your 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.880 public defender must have known about your case when they 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.760 keep switching them out like this. I mean, there's just 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.000 not that much time to get to understand what's going on. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.680 And to be fair, these people are, even the best 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.240 ones of them, are juggling a lot of cases because 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:44.920 that's just the way the system works. He or she 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:46.720 might be working one hundred cases at that time. 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.000 And that came out that down the line to try 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.400 and admit it that when he had like forty cases 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.680 of clients in a bullpen, which is the holding area 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.080 for prison, he had an old woman case a little 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.600 and like forty were there, and by the time he 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.800 got the he was in a cilly lawn mode. But 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.480 in the process of being civilly committed that that whole 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.880 experience within itself was a crazy experience because it is 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.120 experience that you could be civilly committed without a conviction. 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.640 Now you're not convicted. Everything is done through medical terms. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.400 What I'm saying, you have a psychiatrist and a psychologist 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.680 who come in and say I read the record and 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.120 we think his person is guilty, and you know, and 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.680 then that becomes you're guilty, and that becomes the reason 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.120 they hold you. There's no justice there whatsoever. There's no trial, 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.600 there's no way they give you a hearing that the 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.120 attorney general totally dictates, So there's no way to challenge 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.520 the whole process of it. Because the psychiatrists work for 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.040 the state. They come in and write whatever the attorney 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.560 general wants them to say. In my particular case, that 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.640 was one beneficial point feature that I always like to 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.800 add was the state centers psychiatrists and to interview me. 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.160 And as a result of his interview, he changed his mind, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.960 became my witness and testified that I should have been released. 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.520 As a result, they diminished him. He was later released, 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.280 but he jumped ship. But in that process where they 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.800 still saw me. An attorney for another public defender named 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.640 John Dewar, who I aw utmost respectful in their office, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:14.640 and I explained to him, I said, listen. This was 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.200 in two thousand and four. I said, listen, I played 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.560 guilty to a crime I commit. I listen, I shouldn't 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.080 be here. And I explained to him what happened. I said, listen, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.440 I played guilty because I was my life's been addressed, 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.720 my life in jail. I wanted to be home with 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.120 my family. He said, listen, I'm gonna take a chance 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.280 with you. So what he did was him and investigator 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:37.360 they went and found the victim, and they went interviewed her, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.360 and they showed her my photo and she asked, well, 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.680 did you know this guy. I've never seen this guy 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:43.720 dire in my life. They were like, wait a minute, 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.120 this guy's locked up for a crime against you. She 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.400 didn't even know anyone was locked up, particularly me. She said, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.320 I didn't never identify him. That sent my CASI to 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.400 a spiral. As a result of that, she gave a 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.600 sworn statement. We thought that that was going to be 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.080 enough to have me released from civil. 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.240 It would seem like that would be a novel. I'm 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.000 sure again everyone listening is going, okay, well that's it, 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.480 Go home. You're done now, But that's not the way 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:08.880 it works. But I want to make one more point 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:10.240 before we get into the next part of the story, 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.080 which is that ninety five percent of state felony convictions 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.720 are a result of guilty. Please right, because almost anyone 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.520 faced with your situation, especially someone who'd already had experience 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.800 of how heavy the criminal justice system can come down 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.240 on you, given a choice between what they were telling 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:29.639 you was going to be two years or twenty eight 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.600 months or whatever it was, or the rest of your life. 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.960 I mean, try to walk a mile of those shoes, right. 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:37.639 I mean, that's a horrible statistic. 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.560 It's a horrible statistic. And like I said, it may 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.840 not seem like it affects you, but someday it could. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:44.440 I mean, it could affect you or someone you love. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.840 Anyone who's listening right now, you know your chance with 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.440 the public defender who I mean, the ODJIT two stacked. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.520 They formed would be a trifecta judge to prosecuted and 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:59.200 public defender. In my mind, a collaboration to to hurse 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.960 me into this plea agreement to make it as if 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.680 that was my only result to save my life. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.600 But here's what's so crazy about your case, Rannie, is 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.119 that first of all, start with you were innocent. Second 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.720 of all, the idea that your own attorney says, we're 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.600 going to get two years, but you end up getting 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.600 seven years, but then they turned that into seventeen years. 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.199 How can that be that your own people let you 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.040 down to that extent. The system too, but your own people. 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:42.720 And then the other thing, like I said that, I 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.520 really want to highlight because we haven't covered this on 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.240 the show yet, but it's a reality, and it's a 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.480 crazy reality that most people don't focus on. It's this 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.960 idea of civil commitment and that sounds civil commitment, sounds 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:53.520 like a relatively benign term. 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.639 But it was hell in there, and I heard you 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.159 talk about it. It was horrible in it. 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.280 I mean it was horrible in the fact that I 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.679 was exposed to an element that I had never had 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.840 been exposed to before. A mindset. The danger is real. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.399 There's a need to protect the most warmable members of 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:15.480 our society. That's real. However, the process of selection is flawed. 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:17.919 Now when I say the flaw, if they see that 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.359 you don't fit that criteria, you don't have what they 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.840 call a present danger. You don't have the mental incapacity 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.879 or the repetitive or compulsive personality, you should not be 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.720 there now in that environment, you hear things that stories 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.880 is so hard. What that makes you like? I used 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:35.960 to cry in some of the groups because I didn't 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.920 fit in any mold. I had no diagnosis because I 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:41.960 wasn't able to be put in the group. So I 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.280 was separated from the population and put in isolation. I 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.080