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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said.

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Speaker 3: That could never happen to me, but they can.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. Today's guest

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Speaker 5: is the one and only Rodney Roberts.

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Speaker 6: Rodney Roberts was held for seventeen years for the crime

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Speaker 6: of raping a seventeen year old girl he had never met.

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Speaker 6: Rodney was advised by his public defender to plead guilty.

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Speaker 6: He was told that the seventeen year old girl who

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Speaker 6: was right outside the courtroom had identified him, and if

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Speaker 6: he did not plead guilty, he was going to spend

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Speaker 6: the rest of his life in jail.

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Speaker 7: Rodney Roberts story a guilty plead, born a fear, a

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Speaker 7: maxed out sentence of seven years, and on the day

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Speaker 7: of release, not a ride home, but a surprise transfer

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Speaker 7: to civil commitment. It's a kind of imprisonment reserved for

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Speaker 7: just one type of offender. It has no set sentence,

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Speaker 7: no guarantee of release because the state deems them too

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Speaker 7: dangerous to release. And the state says it's a treatment program,

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Speaker 7: but the residents call it prison. He would be held

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Speaker 7: there as an encouragible violent sex offender for a full decade,

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Speaker 7: although it would later be proven that he had been

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Speaker 7: innocent from the start.

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Speaker 6: Rodney was finally released after seventeen years because he got

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Speaker 6: a lawyer who had DNA evidence.

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Speaker 4: Rodney, Welcome to the show. I'm glad you're here, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 5: So Rodney, this whole crazy saga of your life started

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Speaker 5: when you were seventeen, really right, yes, And up until

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Speaker 5: then your life had been what she's full, good, troubled,

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Speaker 5: what was your background.

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Speaker 3: Actually up into them. My life was very well. I

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Speaker 3: had both parents, mother and father, and the household work.

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Speaker 3: My mother she was hands on. She has a master's

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Speaker 3: degree in education. She believed in education in US learning.

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Speaker 3: I have six sisters and four brothers, so we had

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Speaker 3: a house that's a whole football team. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was never alone. I was always well supervised. I

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Speaker 3: had no trouble as juvenile, no juvenile castration, or no

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Speaker 3: trouble in that level. I was a very good student.

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Speaker 3: You know. We went to private school from first to

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Speaker 3: eighth grade. So my life then was very positive, very

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Speaker 3: If I was poor, I didn't have no I wasn't

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Speaker 3: even aware of it because I was so well cared

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Speaker 3: for by my parents and my older brothers and sisters,

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Speaker 3: and my aunts and my uncles and the people in

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Speaker 3: the community. You know back then at that time, you know,

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Speaker 3: you had like five six mothers in the neighborhood. You

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Speaker 3: were watched by so many others that you could be

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Speaker 3: disciplined by the lady down the street and and she'd

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Speaker 3: bring you to your mother and you and then get

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Speaker 3: disciplined right in front of her and by your mother.

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Speaker 3: So it was a different time than us, and the

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Speaker 3: love in the community and the household was very strong.

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Speaker 4: And which neighborhood was this well.

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Speaker 3: Originally we grew up in the Project area on Montgomery Street,

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Speaker 3: which again was different at that time. And then we

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Speaker 3: moved to a one family house up in the Wellsburg

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Speaker 3: area that's in North New Jersey, right across the street

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Speaker 3: from Valsburg Park. So I can run off my front

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Speaker 3: porch right into a park.

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Speaker 4: Up in Newark, New Jersey.

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Speaker 5: And it sounds really very sort of beautiful in a

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Speaker 5: certain way, very community oriented, nice, Like you said, a

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Speaker 5: huge family, had a huge extended family. And this is

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Speaker 5: why when I tell people, if you don't think this

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Speaker 5: can happen to you, this can happen to you, because

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Speaker 5: you didn't just paint a likely scenario for someone who's

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Speaker 5: going to end up really getting wrongly convicted twice and

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Speaker 5: serving over two decades in prison for crimes you didn't commit.

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Speaker 5: So let's get into that part of the story. Because

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Speaker 5: when you were a kid, you were kind of hanging

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Speaker 5: out with older guys, right, and then you kind of

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Speaker 5: got blindsided because you weren't really aware of what these

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Speaker 5: guys were up to.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the blind side particularly came from the fact

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Speaker 3: that I grew up in so much of a people

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Speaker 3: calling out a sheltered household sheltered life, that a lot

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Speaker 3: of things go on the streets I really wasn't exposed to,

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Speaker 3: so me growing up, I would have to come in

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Speaker 3: the house early and things that natures. I thought I

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Speaker 3: was missing out on a lot of things. So I

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Speaker 3: would find little ways to sneak out the house, not

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Speaker 3: really knowing what I would getting myself into. And because

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Speaker 3: of that, I wasn't aware of what was out there.

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Speaker 3: I was more easy to be manipulated in that environment.

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Speaker 3: I'm smart, but I was stupid at the same time.

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Speaker 8: Well, I wouldn't say stupid, naive that's a good word.

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Speaker 8: Naive is a much better word. I like that word

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Speaker 8: better than stupid too. So like the older guys in

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Speaker 8: the community who so much like see young guys, they

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Speaker 8: see potentially in but they seen the potential in a

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Speaker 8: different way. They seen a potential in like a more

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Speaker 8: negative way. How could I sharpen this guy to help

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Speaker 8: me commit my crimes and help me get over And

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Speaker 8: I became under that radar.

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Speaker 3: And when they approached me that they approached me like hey, man,

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Speaker 3: we like the where you're.

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Speaker 4: Blend right in.

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Speaker 3: We just want you to do this. Just look be

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Speaker 3: a scout, be a lookout, just do this and do

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Speaker 3: minimum things things that I thought was really cool. You know, hey,

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Speaker 3: I'm in now, you know I'm part of the streets now,

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Speaker 3: thinking that I was going to earn the street cred.

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Speaker 3: All the time I was being played because of my naiveness,

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Speaker 3: of my naivete, I wasn't able to see what was

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Speaker 3: really going on with me.

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Speaker 5: But when you're a kid with that kind of flattery,

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Speaker 5: when an older person shows your respect and treats you

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Speaker 5: as they're equal, that can be very intoxicating and can

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Speaker 5: lead you down the road that you don't really know

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Speaker 5: you're going because you're blinded, right because you're thinking that

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Speaker 5: you're in with the cool squad or whatever.

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Speaker 3: So what happened, Well, what happened was, first I hid

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Speaker 3: this from my family. I wanted to add that part.

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Speaker 3: They didn't know what was going on. So I separated

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Speaker 3: myself from my protection and that was a key point.

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Speaker 3: And that point where this particular day, they we were

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Speaker 3: out and they were saying, well, what was going on

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Speaker 3: out here on the avenue, which just Hakwon's avenue was

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Speaker 3: a busy street, very crime orientated, and I came back

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Speaker 3: and said, well, this person's doing this, and this person's

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Speaker 3: doing that, and that person is stopping picking up this,

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Speaker 3: and so in that course, they took action from there

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Speaker 3: and they went into and committed the crimes that they

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Speaker 3: committed in detail, which was robbery's, chicknapped, and sexual related offenses.

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Speaker 3: And me, because I played my role, I was charged

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Speaker 3: as a conspirator, not that I committed any defenses, but

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Speaker 3: because I acted in the capacity to acting at that age,

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Speaker 3: I was also charged. I went to trial with these

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Speaker 3: individuals and was found guilty with these individuals and had

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Speaker 3: to serve five years alongside these individuals as a conspirator,

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Speaker 3: and my record reflected the same as this, even though

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Speaker 3: I did not participate, but as a conspirator, I was

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Speaker 3: charged the same way, and in that five years, because

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Speaker 3: of my age, I was sent to like a youth facility,

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Speaker 3: which is board in town at that time, and once

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Speaker 3: I got a certain size and they transferred me to

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Speaker 3: a larger facility, which was always the prison, who in

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Speaker 3: turn released me. Once they released me in the early

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Speaker 3: nineties ninety three, I was home at that point in

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Speaker 3: my life. I had decided that my whole life was changed.

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Speaker 3: I was never going back. I had got a good job.

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Speaker 3: I was working at Quellsmen's war up in Woolbrook Mall.

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Speaker 3: I was excellent salesman for them, paying me pretty good money.

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Speaker 3: Got a nice apartment up in Mount Clear, New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: Got custody of my son, who I felt was the

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Speaker 3: change in my life as well, who had left before

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Speaker 3: I was inconcentrated. His mother was pregnant, so I wasn't

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Speaker 3: even there to witness his birth. So that was a

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Speaker 3: big part of me coming home as a change man

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Speaker 3: to take responsibility of my son. Got me a nice

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Speaker 3: car and everything, and I was doing pretty well. And

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Speaker 3: as a result of doing that, I was picked up

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Speaker 3: and identified as someone who committed another offense, saying I

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Speaker 3: was a warrant was out for my arrest, saying that

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Speaker 3: you've been identified as a person who committed a sexual

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Speaker 3: related offense and a kidnapped and against my adamant de

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Speaker 3: not like, listen, it's not me. I didn't do this.

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Speaker 3: I'm I didn't even do that before, but now they

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Speaker 3: had me custody. Whilst they arrested me and put me

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Speaker 3: in custody. The threat we can hold you and keep

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Speaker 3: you here for the rest of your life was real

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Speaker 3: to me. They had showed me that they had the

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Speaker 3: power to do that already.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, you were in a very precarious situation. I mean,

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Speaker 5: seven years had gone by, your life was, as you said,

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Speaker 5: your life was on track. Things are looking good, and

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Speaker 5: then this crazy thing happens. And then a lot of

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Speaker 5: a lot of weird stuff goes on, I mean, a

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Speaker 5: lot of lying, a lot of cheating the system because

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Speaker 5: they really wanted to convict you. In your case, it

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Speaker 5: doesn't seem like they were really that interested in finding

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Speaker 5: out who raped this woman. They were interested in pending

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Speaker 5: it on you, right, just because they had you And

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Speaker 5: we've seen that part of this scenario happened before. That's

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Speaker 5: not the craziest thing about your story is crazy because

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Speaker 5: it happened to you, But it's not uncommon, unfortunately, Right,

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Speaker 5: But things get really crazy as we go along.

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Speaker 4: Well, we'll take us through this, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, once I was in custody, it was really my

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Speaker 3: public defender, as they say in jail house turn my

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Speaker 3: public pretender who came and said to me in this

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Speaker 3: theatrical way that he had convinced me that the state

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Speaker 3: had this over whom evidence, that the witness was outside

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Speaker 3: by the way, this is my third at turned public

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Speaker 3: defender within a four month period, and that the witness

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Speaker 3: seen my photo and start crying uncontrollably, and they had

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Speaker 3: pinpointed me in that if I was gonna go to

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Speaker 3: trial and be in jail for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 3: Now at that point, I felt so overwhelmed backtracking, which

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Speaker 3: just happened to me earlier at seventeen. They said that, well,

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Speaker 3: look and we offer you a plea agreement. We're gonna

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Speaker 3: give you a seven year term and you're gonna do

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Speaker 3: two years and you'll come home. If you just plead guilty,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna dismiss the sexual lated defense and you were

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Speaker 3: downgrade the kidnapped a second degree and put on a record.

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Speaker 3: No one got hurt, And so in my mind I

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Speaker 3: thought I would saving my life because I had just

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Speaker 3: left my son out there and I didn't know what

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Speaker 3: was going on. I was separated from my family. So

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Speaker 3: I took the plea agreement and I answered a plea

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Speaker 3: to a crime I didn't commit, and doing that, I

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Speaker 3: felt like I portrayed myself in a way that it

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Speaker 3: took me years to get over. And the process of that,

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Speaker 3: I was sent down to state prison to do the

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Speaker 3: seven year term because I went to parole, and parole

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Speaker 3: actually was saying that, oh, listen, you're here not just

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Speaker 3: for the kidnap, but we're here for what the police

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Speaker 3: reports are saying, for the sexual offense. And I'm like, no,

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Speaker 3: I didn't do any of that. I actually I didn't

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Speaker 3: do any of it. At this point, I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 3: I didn't do any I just played guilty, thinking trying

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Speaker 3: to save my life. Well, that sent them in a

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Speaker 3: spiral like I was in denial, and then I showed

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Speaker 3: no remorse, which you know, I could show remorse for

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Speaker 3: something I said not do, and that's what I was

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Speaker 3: trying to explain to them. But as a result of that,

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Speaker 3: I was denied parole maybe three times, and then I

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Speaker 3: was maxed out. And in being maxed out at me,

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Speaker 3: I served a full seven year terms as opposed to

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Speaker 3: two year term. But before you are released from prison,

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Speaker 3: you were sent to these parole classes. So I went

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Speaker 3: to the parole classes and the pre release classes, which

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Speaker 3: I was did stellar and because I'm thinking I'm going home,

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Speaker 3: and so on the day of my release, I was

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Speaker 3: brought out to the front like every other prisoner who

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Speaker 3: was schedul to be released that day lined up, but

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Speaker 3: instead when they called everyone name, they didn't call minds.

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Speaker 3: So they had released all of them and left me

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Speaker 3: standing there in the day of the day, I had

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Speaker 3: maxed out, means that I had no more time left

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 4: But so you're there.

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Speaker 5: You have your possessions, whatever your possessions were that you

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Speaker 5: had in prison, whether you had them with you, right,

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Speaker 5: You're ready to go home, start your life again, see

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Speaker 5: your son, re establish your relationships with your family, the

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Speaker 5: whole thing.

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Speaker 3: They were actually in the parking lot waiting to take

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Speaker 3: me home and go get something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we had all.

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Speaker 3: Arranged, and I mean I had, you know, grown until

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Speaker 3: more after seven years from this experience in a degree

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Speaker 3: where I felt like, now my life is really going

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Speaker 3: to be taken throl of my life and really do

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Speaker 3: it right. But as opposed to being released, I was

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Speaker 3: held and transferred to with New Jersey call to a

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Speaker 3: special treatment on this because I refused to pleat acknowledgeable

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Speaker 3: guilty or admit my role in the sexual related offense.

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Speaker 3: New Jersey had passed a law called the Sexual Fund

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Speaker 3: Predat Act, which said that if they felt like a

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Speaker 3: person was still dangerous, that they could not be released.

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Speaker 3: So they civilly committed me under that pretense. So I

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Speaker 3: was taken to a facility civil commitment facility, which is

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Speaker 3: like a civil commitment like traditional However, this was like

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Speaker 3: a new hybrid facility that New Jersey had came up

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Speaker 3: with where they combined the Apartment Correction and Department Human

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Speaker 3: Service to their department who service there would provide treatment

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Speaker 3: to those that were committed. And I was held there

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Speaker 3: for ten years.

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Speaker 4: It's not real. I mean ten years on top. It's

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Speaker 4: like it.

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Speaker 5: I think most people are listening and going, wait, wait,

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Speaker 5: but that doesn't make sense. You can't serve your sentence

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Speaker 5: and then serve another sentence that you didn't even have,

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Speaker 5: which is longer a by fifty percent than your original

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Speaker 5: sentence was in the first place. And you know it's

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Speaker 5: so crazy, right, you plead innocent, they send you to prison,

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Speaker 5: and you played guilty to send you home.

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Speaker 4: It's so backwards.

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Speaker 5: It's like Alice in Wonderland, but in your case, that's

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Speaker 5: literally what happened. They wanted you to acknowledge your guilt.

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Speaker 5: I mean, they pulled the rug out from under you

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Speaker 5: so many different times, in so many different ways. By

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Speaker 5: now right, they had lied to you about the witness

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Speaker 5: who actually had not identified you and never did identify you, right,

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Speaker 5: and they told you that she did. You know, when

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Speaker 5: you talk about three public defenders in four months, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's not hard for anyone to imagine how little your

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Speaker 5: public defender must have known about your case when they

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Speaker 5: keep switching them out like this. I mean, there's just

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Speaker 5: not that much time to get to understand what's going on.

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Speaker 5: And to be fair, these people are, even the best

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Speaker 5: ones of them, are juggling a lot of cases because

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Speaker 5: that's just the way the system works. He or she

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Speaker 5: might be working one hundred cases at that time.

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Speaker 3: And that came out that down the line to try

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Speaker 3: and admit it that when he had like forty cases

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Speaker 3: of clients in a bullpen, which is the holding area

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Speaker 3: for prison, he had an old woman case a little

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Speaker 3: and like forty were there, and by the time he

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Speaker 3: got the he was in a cilly lawn mode. But

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Speaker 3: in the process of being civilly committed that that whole

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Speaker 3: experience within itself was a crazy experience because it is

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Speaker 3: experience that you could be civilly committed without a conviction.

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Speaker 3: Now you're not convicted. Everything is done through medical terms.

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Speaker 3: What I'm saying, you have a psychiatrist and a psychologist

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Speaker 3: who come in and say I read the record and

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Speaker 3: we think his person is guilty, and you know, and

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Speaker 3: then that becomes you're guilty, and that becomes the reason

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Speaker 3: they hold you. There's no justice there whatsoever. There's no trial,

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Speaker 3: there's no way they give you a hearing that the

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Speaker 3: attorney general totally dictates, So there's no way to challenge

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Speaker 3: the whole process of it. Because the psychiatrists work for

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Speaker 3: the state. They come in and write whatever the attorney

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Speaker 3: general wants them to say. In my particular case, that

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Speaker 3: was one beneficial point feature that I always like to

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Speaker 3: add was the state centers psychiatrists and to interview me.

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Speaker 3: And as a result of his interview, he changed his mind,

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Speaker 3: became my witness and testified that I should have been released.

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Speaker 3: As a result, they diminished him. He was later released,

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Speaker 3: but he jumped ship. But in that process where they

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Speaker 3: still saw me. An attorney for another public defender named

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Speaker 3: John Dewar, who I aw utmost respectful in their office,

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Speaker 3: and I explained to him, I said, listen. This was

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and four. I said, listen, I played

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Speaker 3: guilty to a crime I commit. I listen, I shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be here. And I explained to him what happened. I said, listen,

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Speaker 3: I played guilty because I was my life's been addressed,

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Speaker 3: my life in jail. I wanted to be home with

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Speaker 3: my family. He said, listen, I'm gonna take a chance

337
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 3: with you. So what he did was him and investigator

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Speaker 3: they went and found the victim, and they went interviewed her,

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Speaker 3: and they showed her my photo and she asked, well,

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Speaker 3: did you know this guy. I've never seen this guy

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Speaker 3: dire in my life. They were like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 3: this guy's locked up for a crime against you. She

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Speaker 3: didn't even know anyone was locked up, particularly me. She said,

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Speaker 3: I didn't never identify him. That sent my CASI to

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Speaker 3: a spiral. As a result of that, she gave a

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Speaker 3: sworn statement. We thought that that was going to be

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Speaker 3: enough to have me released from civil.

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Speaker 5: It would seem like that would be a novel. I'm

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Speaker 5: sure again everyone listening is going, okay, well that's it,

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Speaker 5: Go home. You're done now, But that's not the way

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Speaker 5: it works. But I want to make one more point

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Speaker 5: before we get into the next part of the story,

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Speaker 5: which is that ninety five percent of state felony convictions

354
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Speaker 5: are a result of guilty. Please right, because almost anyone

355
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Speaker 5: faced with your situation, especially someone who'd already had experience

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Speaker 5: of how heavy the criminal justice system can come down

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Speaker 5: on you, given a choice between what they were telling

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Speaker 5: you was going to be two years or twenty eight

359
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Speaker 5: months or whatever it was, or the rest of your life.

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Speaker 5: I mean, try to walk a mile of those shoes, right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's a horrible statistic.

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Speaker 5: It's a horrible statistic. And like I said, it may

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Speaker 5: not seem like it affects you, but someday it could.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it could affect you or someone you love.

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Speaker 5: Anyone who's listening right now, you know your chance with

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Speaker 5: the public defender who I mean, the ODJIT two stacked.

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Speaker 3: They formed would be a trifecta judge to prosecuted and

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Speaker 3: public defender. In my mind, a collaboration to to hurse

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Speaker 3: me into this plea agreement to make it as if

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Speaker 3: that was my only result to save my life.

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Speaker 5: But here's what's so crazy about your case, Rannie, is

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Speaker 5: that first of all, start with you were innocent. Second

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Speaker 5: of all, the idea that your own attorney says, we're

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Speaker 5: going to get two years, but you end up getting

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Speaker 5: seven years, but then they turned that into seventeen years.

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Speaker 5: How can that be that your own people let you

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Speaker 5: down to that extent. The system too, but your own people.

378
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Speaker 5: And then the other thing, like I said that, I

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Speaker 5: really want to highlight because we haven't covered this on

380
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Speaker 5: the show yet, but it's a reality, and it's a

381
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Speaker 5: crazy reality that most people don't focus on. It's this

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Speaker 5: idea of civil commitment and that sounds civil commitment, sounds

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Speaker 5: like a relatively benign term.

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Speaker 4: But it was hell in there, and I heard you

385
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Speaker 4: talk about it. It was horrible in it.

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Speaker 3: I mean it was horrible in the fact that I

387
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Speaker 3: was exposed to an element that I had never had

388
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Speaker 3: been exposed to before. A mindset. The danger is real.

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Speaker 3: There's a need to protect the most warmable members of

390
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Speaker 3: our society. That's real. However, the process of selection is flawed.

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Speaker 3: Now when I say the flaw, if they see that

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Speaker 3: you don't fit that criteria, you don't have what they

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Speaker 3: call a present danger. You don't have the mental incapacity

394
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Speaker 3: or the repetitive or compulsive personality, you should not be

395
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Speaker 3: there now in that environment, you hear things that stories

396
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Speaker 3: is so hard. What that makes you like? I used

397
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Speaker 3: to cry in some of the groups because I didn't

398
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Speaker 3: fit in any mold. I had no diagnosis because I

399
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Speaker 3: wasn't able to be put in the group. So I

400
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Speaker 3: was separated from the population and put in isolation. I

401
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Speaker 3: spent most of my time, maybe nine years in isolation,

402
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Speaker 3: away from population. But the big part of that case

403
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Speaker 3: was for years we asked to state for the particular

404
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Speaker 3: the kits what they said that they had to show

405
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Speaker 3: the d evidence. So they said they lost.

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Speaker 4: It and let's go back to that.

407
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Speaker 5: And before we even do, I want to make that

408
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Speaker 5: point too, because I think you and I are on

409
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Speaker 5: the same page, because I often say that I'm not

410
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 5: soft on crime, I'm tough on injustice right and I

411
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Speaker 5: think too anybody who you know who hurts another human being,

412
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Speaker 5: we have to have a society of laws, we have

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Speaker 5: to protect the general population. I do believe that Brian

414
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Speaker 5: Stevenson says, which is that everybody's better than the worst

415
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Speaker 5: thing they've ever done. But that being said, we have

416
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Speaker 5: to hold people accountable, we have to be safe as

417
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Speaker 5: a society, but we also have to be fair. And

418
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Speaker 5: everyone's entitled to a fair shake and to a fair trial,

419
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Speaker 5: and to fair treatment by the system. And you are

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Speaker 5: the poster the poster child, for lack of a better word,

421
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Speaker 5: of everything that's wrong, everything that can go wrong. And

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Speaker 5: I want to get back to the rape kits because,

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Speaker 5: as you said, as your lawyers were trying to get

424
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Speaker 5: the rape kits, they were saying, and we've seen this.

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Speaker 4: Before, that they lost them.

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Speaker 5: They didn't lose them, but they said they lost them

427
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Speaker 5: either they were too lazy to look for him, whether

428
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Speaker 5: they didn't look very hard or whatever it was, whether

429
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Speaker 5: they were hiding them.

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Speaker 4: Who knows.

431
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Speaker 5: But one way another, that's one of the things that

432
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Speaker 5: kept you in as long as it did, because if

433
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Speaker 5: they found those rape kits, you would have been freed

434
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Speaker 5: because it would have proven that you could not have

435
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Speaker 5: been the source of the semen that was found right

436
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 5: inside this woman. But talk a little bit about this isolation, right,

437
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 5: What was that like? The isolation? I mean, does that

438
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 5: mean you were in like solitary confinement type of sound.

439
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was in. It had a special unit called

440
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 3: a B unit, where these particular individuals either they were

441
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 3: treatment refused, either they refused to even participate in any programming,

442
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 3: or like myself, had no diagnosis. And one other feature

443
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: was they felt that I had too much influence on

444
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 3: their population. And in regards to my legal skill, my

445
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 3: ability to advocate. When I was standing up and say

446
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 3: this is injustice, this is not right, I had no

447
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: idea how many people was behind me saying yeah, well

448
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 3: he said so. I was always looked at as someone's

449
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 3: citing rise or creating gatherings because all I was doing

450
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 3: was standing up for what I thought was my rights.

451
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 3: So as a result, the administration decided to isolate me

452
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,959
Speaker 3: and put me in isolation so I could not I

453
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 3: was only able to go to visits with the rest

454
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: of populais. I wasn't able to go grooves programs events,

455
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 3: I couldn't participate in anything because of my stance and

456
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 3: because I would not admit guilt. At this point, I

457
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 3: stood firmly that I'm innocent, and that also set me

458
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 3: apart from the population because the only way you could

459
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 3: get therapy and treatment you have to admit guilt. And

460
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 3: in this isolation, you'll put on this unit. And this

461
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,719
Speaker 3: unit is I mean, one of the most miserable places

462
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 3: you could be because there's a unit of hopelessness. You

463
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 3: feel like you forgot about left there. You feel like

464
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 3: everything at this point in your life is over, that

465
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 3: no one believes you, and that the fight is so

466
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 3: uphill it's like ice skating uphill. I mean, And in

467
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 3: that moment, you know, I grew to a point where

468
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 3: was though, I said to myself, because they would constantly say,

469
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: fortunately had SiO. They had correction officers there, and they

470
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 3: have correction officer there, who who's you know. He was

471
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 3: very underst so he would say lock in, you know,

472
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 3: you gotta lock in yourself, which no one wants to

473
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 3: go lock be locked in themself. But he was cordial

474
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: about it, and he did his job, but he wasn't really

475
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 3: arrogant about or aggressive. He would say lock in, guys,

476
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 3: so everybody would feel more easy about doing it. But

477
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 3: this particular day he wasn't there and they had this

478
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: also on and he was just being extra unnecessary that day,

479
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 3: all that day, and so when time came for us

480
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 3: a locking, he said lock in, And the way he

481
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: said it resonated in me so deeply. He said, lock in.

482
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 3: I said to myself, no, no, I'm not locking it.

483
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 3: No I'm not I'm innocent. I'm not going in her room.

484
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to be here today. So he says,

485
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: if you don't lock in, I'm gonna have to call

486
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 3: the boys. It's gonna be trouble. I said, it's gonna

487
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: be some trouble today. The day is that day. We're

488
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 3: gonna have some trouble up here. It's gonna be some trouble.

489
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 3: So he called the boy. So I'm up there, back

490
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 3: and forth. I'm ready. I'm positioning to myself, yes, going

491
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 3: down today. I'm tired of this. I'm not locking in

492
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 3: no more time. I'm innocent. So they ran up the

493
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 3: stairs and I'm ready for them. They come running like

494
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 3: eight nine up. They really get me. So when they

495
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 3: got to the top of the stairs, I rushed them.

496
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: I grabbed them, and like for three seconds, I was

497
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 3: the mad three seconds, I was that guy. After that

498
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 3: three seconds, I felt my feet come off the ground,

499
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: I felt my arm being pulled back around me. But

500
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: then they felt they threw me, grabbed me and threw

501
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 3: me in myself.

502
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 4: For you what I was in my cell.

503
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 3: I was standing in my cl I freshed myself off,

504
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, at least I

505
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 3: stood up for three seconds. And I lived in that

506
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: three second moment for years. But as a result of

507
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: standing up and feeling that in that three seconds, they

508
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 3: looked at me different in the population. They said, well,

509
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: why was someone put theyself through that? Why was someone's

510
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 3: stand up against eight nine different people just to say

511
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: they innocent? And that's made him take a step back

512
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: and say, let's look at this guy again. And as

513
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: a result, they became more leaning against me. Allowed me

514
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 3: to more access to the law library, allowed me to

515
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: move around a little bit more quietly. They would say, listen,

516
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 3: we like you, we like how you move, but don't

517
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 3: make us choose you and our job. Because I'm gonna

518
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: choose my job, and if I gotta knock your head,

519
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 3: I'm knocking your head. So I had to learn how

520
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: to maneuver within in that philosophy, and that gave me

521
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 3: the room I needed to litigate harder, fight harder for

522
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: my freedom, and that three seconds. I live in this

523
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: very moment because and that three seconds, I was the champion.

524
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 3: I needed to be it liberated me. It was only

525
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 3: three seconds that took him for my whole life in

526
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: that moment to liberate me to be the man I

527
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 3: am today and grow and feel strong. Now I had

528
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: the rest of my life. Three seconds turned into the

529
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: rest of my life. Then that changed everything for me.

530
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 5: You literally risk your life and here comes these guys

531
00:25:54,640 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 5: with the shields and the helmets, and they.

532
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 4: Might have killed you, and nobody would have.

533
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 5: Prosecuted him if they did exactly they would have said,

534
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 5: he rushed us, it was dangerous slave, blah blah blah.

535
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 5: So you became the man in that moment, which was

536
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 5: really a spontaneous reaction, right because for.

537
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 3: Me, that moment right there reflected in my mind I

538
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: had enough.

539
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 5: Well, because the thing is that I keep coming back

540
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 5: to this right on top of the wrongful conviction, on

541
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 5: top of the rug being pulled out from under you,

542
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 5: with the two years, you know what you had to

543
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 5: pleat gill you something you didn't do, then the seven years,

544
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 5: and then really the terrifying idea of you not being

545
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 5: able to go home and everybody else going home, and

546
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 5: then the idea that you're in there for ten years

547
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 5: and it's an indefinite sentence. It's not even like if

548
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 5: they sentenced you, well, we're going to put you in

549
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 5: this confinement thing for ten years, at least you would

550
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 5: know at the end of ten years you're going. But

551
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 5: you had no idea what they could have kept you

552
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 5: there forever.

553
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 3: And because I was saying I'm innocent, that totally took

554
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: me out to run it. That made me did disqualify

555
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 3: any opportunity for my release. If it wasn't for the

556
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 3: fact that do your coelor court finally got tired reverse

557
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 3: in my case three times and a third time they

558
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 3: finally was so frustrated they assigned me a new attorney,

559
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: a new judge, and then mysteriously the evidence that we

560
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 3: were looking for up here is that we were asking

561
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: for maybe ten years and nine to half ten years.

562
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 3: They say with los pops, I don't know what we mislabeled.

563
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 3: Here we go, and it was.

564
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 4: Mislabeled this exactly.

565
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 5: But this is another thing that's it still strikes me

566
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: as naughty. That and that's not strong enough word. The

567
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 5: idea that your conviction was overturned three times, right, and

568
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 5: these are pro say emotions that you were filing in

569
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 5: a pro say, motion for people who haven't heard that

570
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 5: term before, means emotion filed by an inmate on their

571
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 5: own behalf, without the benefit of a lawyer. So how

572
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 5: does it happen that you get these convictions? And it

573
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 5: could again talk about more rugs being pulled out from

574
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 5: under you? Right here you are like they're going dangling

575
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 5: you like around like a marionette. Right so you're you

576
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 5: get this overturned and then they don't free you anyway,

577
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: and then they do it again, and then they don't

578
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 5: fore you anyway, and then finally it takes a judge

579
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 5: to go, I'm tired of this shit, right.

580
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 4: I'm tired. He was tired. Imagine how tired you must

581
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 4: to be. See people, I'm tired for listen to the

582
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 4: damn story.

583
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 3: And you know a lot of people don't really take

584
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 3: into account how something this match affects so especially I

585
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 3: mean personally for me, how much all of this, even

586
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: from seventeen all the way up to this point, on

587
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: what I had to deal with as a person, as

588
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: a as a young man, and to deal with this

589
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: environment and to deal with the pain and separation and

590
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: on that was separate from my family and had the

591
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: hostility and environment had to survive and and keep my

592
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: head together and hold on to hope, because you know

593
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: that was you know, it was times I had to

594
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: do a lot of depression. It was are the times

595
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 3: I had to fight off, you know, saying a feeling

596
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 3: that this was never going to end. I was always

597
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 3: going to be in this situation that I was never

598
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: going to be able to prove to anyone that I'm

599
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: worthy or value someone to value me. I mean, it

600
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: was so hard, you know what I'm saying, and dealing

601
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: with disappointment over and over again too. I used to

602
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 3: ask myself, am I addicted to disappointment? Because it started

603
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 3: becoming to the point where I've started becoming desensitized, like

604
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: I expected to be let down. It affected me in

605
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: a way whereas though I know I felt that God

606
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: has to be watching over me because the fact that

607
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not crazy at this point, because of

608
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: the experience of having to fight off all these emotions

609
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: of loneliness, the emotion of feeling powerless and just disenfranchised,

610
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: and all these feelings you live with live with for years.

611
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 5: Can you just give us some insight into what was

612
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 5: the worst and the best experience you had during your

613
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 5: seventeen years locked up in the miserable conditions that you

614
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 5: were in.

615
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: The worst experience was being placed in a position to

616
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: have to plead guilty to a crime I didn't commit,

617
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: along with being civilly committed in the facility where the

618
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 3: stigma was horrible, and have to live under the stigma

619
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: of in that environment and survived, and that such hard

620
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: stigma being looked at and as someone who has those

621
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 3: characteristics even though I didn't. The happiest moment that I

622
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: had that kind of nullified kind of took takes and

623
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: put her all that in this perspective was in the

624
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: courtroom when the judge finally judged Sherry hutchs Henderson, when

625
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: she finally got the DNA evident she needed from the

626
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: state lab and she said to me, mister Robertson, she's apologized.

627
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: Her apology was so heart felt of how she felt

628
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: so bad that this happened to me. But when she

629
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: said I'm reversing your conviction, my support so so it

630
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 3: was like maybe thirteen people, my niece, my sister, a lady,

631
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 3: my mother, and my friends. They bust out and like jubilate. Nah,

632
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: it was so loud in the courtroom. You know, they

633
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: was out there like they was having the Holy goes

634
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: back there, like church was going on. And a judge

635
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: she loud them to have that moment because that was

636
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 3: their moment of vindication as well as mine, because they

637
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 3: believe me, they still by all those years and they

638
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 3: we knew it. And you know, I expected to turn

639
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 3: around and see them road on the floor. But in

640
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: that moment, I cried, I felt vindicated. I felt now

641
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 3: you know, I was happy. I felt like something in

642
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 3: my life just turned around. And in that moment, you know,

643
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: hearing them cheering and empowered me. And I think, I

644
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: know changed my whole walk at that point because I

645
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: went back and because I had to go back to

646
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: the civil commitments be released from there. But I had

647
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: that George Jefferson walk. You know what I'm saying, I'm

648
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: walking on like George Jefferson. Now, you know. So I

649
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: was so that I made that experience right there. It

650
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: was the happiest moment in my life. You know, I'm

651
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: that courtroom experience. I just cannot ever erase that from

652
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: my mind and heart. How wrong that made me feel

653
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: doing A judge said that and hear my family and

654
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: everyone that loved me just so happy to hear it

655
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 3: and know they was right because they went through a

656
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 3: lot of turmoil and kind of visit and being discriminated

657
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: against and coming inside and look down upon, like you

658
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 3: supporting this guy and this kind of with this kind

659
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: of person, with this kind of charge, and they had

660
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 3: to go through all that and and do it and

661
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: now to find and see that they were right and

662
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 3: had that moment where they were like elate and such.

663
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: That moment, like I said, gave me that George Jefferson consence.

664
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 3: I was walking back, everybody looking at him like I

665
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: was a new guy, Like look at this guy, who

666
00:32:59,120 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 3: is this guy here?

667
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's amazing.

668
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 5: And obviously no one can understand that feeling that hasn't

669
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 5: been through it, but you're painting a very vivid picture

670
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 5: and making I'm sure everyone that's listening feel that the

671
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 5: little piece of that joy that you had and that

672
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 5: indication and that feeling when you were enduring. And it's

673
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 5: so crazy. I was just thinking about the timeline of

674
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 5: your life, right, seventeen years, then five years in prison,

675
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 5: then seven years out, then seventeen years. It's really a

676
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 5: crazy roller coaster ride that's impossible for anyone to understand

677
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 5: who hasn't lived it. And it's sort of a miracle

678
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 5: that you're here, and it's really inspiring just to hear

679
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 5: you talk and see the way you are. So I

680
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 5: I want to ask you when you were when you

681
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 5: were locked up, was there any particular person that gave

682
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 5: you hope, that gave you strength.

683
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, at that time I had a support system. Her

684
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: name was Linda, Linda Roberts. At this point, she was

685
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 3: very strong in my life. Then I have a strong

686
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: support system analysis hopen home with. Her name is Tulita James,

687
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: we call her. So there was an adjustment process. But

688
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: the one person who kept me moving when I was seventeen,

689
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: the judge asked me, and this is the orange record,

690
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 3: the judge said before he sentenced me, because I was

691
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: schedule to be sentence so higher sentence. But he asked me, said,

692
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 3: is there anything you want to say?

693
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 4: Young man?

694
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: So I turned to my mother, who was crying and

695
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 3: who I was hurting so bad because I'm her youngest son,

696
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: and she just knew that this was wrong. And I

697
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: said to my mother, no matter what, I'm not gonna

698
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 3: let this destroy me. I'm gonna do the best I could.

699
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and that I'm gonna hold on. And I

700
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: talked to my mother in the courtroom, and everyone was

701
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: amazed to see me and my mother at this time

702
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: having this back and forth discussion because she was saying,

703
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: hold on, I'm just keep in prayer and in the courtroom,

704
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 3: and that conversation has been my mantra for all these

705
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 3: years to tell her, let my mother know that no

706
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 3: matter what what she instilled in me as her son

707
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 3: and my father, but my mother, what she put in

708
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 3: me was nothing was never going to tear that down

709
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: and moral compass that she instilled in me to find

710
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: my way back to right. It's never going to be

711
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 3: taken out. And that has been my rock. My mother,

712
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: She's my she and she continues to be and she

713
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 3: will always be that my moral conference. She is my

714
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 3: north star.

715
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 4: She sounds like an extraordinary.

716
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: She's eighty five and she can't tell her she's not fifty.

717
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: And I love her. She's my strength, and she knows

718
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 3: what she is and I just cannot get enough of her.

719
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: So I adore her and she knows it, you know.

720
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 5: So it's so important and you just heard from Rodney

721
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 5: that that connection remains intact between families, so between loved

722
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 5: ones and people who are incarcerated. And you know, in

723
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 5: this country we have such a crazy system where inmates

724
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 5: are charged. Incarcerated people are charged five to ten times

725
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 5: as much for collect calls, which is insane.

726
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 4: Now they're moving away from in.

727
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 5: Person visits and certain st where they're changing it to

728
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 5: where you're going to get an iPad and you get

729
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 5: to talk to your family members on the iPad, and

730
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 5: it's like, I mean, we're just we're going in the

731
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 5: wrong direction.

732
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 4: In a lot of ways.

733
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 5: Criminal justice system is being reformed in good ways now,

734
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 5: but in that way, it just doesn't make any sense

735
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 5: because we just heard it directly from you. It's so

736
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 5: important to maintain that to keep that hope alive and

737
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 5: to keep that connection strong, not just for you, but

738
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 5: for your children or your mother or whatever relatives are

739
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 5: on the outside that I love you and care about you.

740
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 5: So while you were locked up the second time, were

741
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 5: you able to maintain a relationship with your son?

742
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 4: And how is that now?

743
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: Well, my son is an amazing young man. Even what

744
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 3: he's been doing with me out his life, he's growing

745
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: to be a very strong young man. He's maybe six five,

746
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: maybe two ninety. You know, he's a big guy, you

747
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, very mild man, a very religious,

748
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: never been involved in the law. You know. It doesn't

749
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 3: drink or hang out anything, works, goes to church. I

750
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 3: love who he's become all my time his absence. One

751
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 3: thing that we always had that kept us together was

752
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: we had a passion for reading. I told him how

753
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: to read, basically, and he would get on the phone

754
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 3: and he would read to me and actually, freaking we

755
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: learned how to read together, do comic books. I would

756
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: buy comic books and I would buy him one. I'd

757
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 3: buy me one and I would reading and he would

758
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 3: read it, and we would talk about the comic books.

759
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 3: And that's how we develop our relationship to reading. And

760
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 3: to this day we still talk about comic books. Even

761
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 3: we're both so amazed at the new Marvel movies. We

762
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 3: run to see him together because we read about him

763
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,959
Speaker 3: all his life and me all my life.

764
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 4: Really, and you have a lady in your life now, yes, I.

765
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: Do, a beautiful young lady who has been patient with

766
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 3: me even all my adjustment and Talada James Della James,

767
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 3: who has dealt with ups and downs with myself and herself,

768
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: and we struggled together, and I appreciate everything she's done

769
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: for me and with me and to me. It helped

770
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: me become a stronger man in my adjustment process.

771
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 5: Friday's sharp dress guy was complimenting him before on his shoes.

772
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 5: He's got a nice, beautiful Chris White shirt. And he

773
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 5: told me, actually the credible laws to her.

774
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, I don't even pick my own clothes.

775
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: I go in the store and I picked something up

776
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: and she ignores it. So then what you know, she

777
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 3: even because I came home I was like two ninety

778
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 3: myself and wait, she helped me even in my healthier eating,

779
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 3: you know, working out. I mean, there has been an

780
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: adjustment process with her there in my life, and I

781
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 3: only pray that I contributed something strong to her life

782
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: through my strength frame to her that makes her know

783
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: that there's always in resilience and we could come back

784
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 3: from anything, you know, saying nothing this overwhelming in life

785
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: that you can't start all over and be strong through.

786
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: So I'm hoping that my experiences and hussying me what

787
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: I've been through and still being strong enough man to

788
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 3: make her want to love me has contributed to her

789
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: life as well. And with that, you know, I have

790
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: six sisters to one path away, my younger sister sharing.

791
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 3: But there's oh and they they're like parole officers, you know.

792
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: They I have checking with them, and if I was

793
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 3: checking with them, there's a so yeah. So I I

794
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 3: have some strong, beautiful women in my life that really

795
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 3: supervised me, so to speak, and take care of me

796
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: and help me along the way. And I think this

797
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 3: made me a much stronger man and much confident man

798
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 3: as well. I came home this time, and I was

799
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 3: blessed to come home this time, and I say to myself,

800
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 3: I'm able to talk about these feelings, but feeling them

801
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 3: at the moment was was like so sad for me.

802
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: I used to have moments where I would be sad

803
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 3: for like days and I'd be like, pull myself. I

804
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 3: we gonna come on, you gotta pull yourself out of this.

805
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: I used to have to coach myself and give myself

806
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 3: pep talk sober and come on, man, you people like

807
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 3: you over there talking to yourself again. I'm like, listen,

808
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 3: this is the best conversation I've had all day and

809
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 3: you know, you pulled myself out of stage of what

810
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 3: I just felt like. It was so much overwhelming. You know,

811
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: really can't begin to tell all the years because we're

812
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 3: talking about since seventeen and then now and how much

813
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: suffering it felt like. I mean, I feel And that's

814
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: why today I advocate because I can identify with suffering.

815
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: You know, I don't like to see anything suffering, and

816
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 3: that's from animals to people, to the plans to anything,

817
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 3: because I know what it feels like to suffer. I

818
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: know it feels like to be put in a position

819
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 3: that you know, where you're just hurting inside emotionally and psychologically,

820
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: that you just want some help from somewhere, you know.

821
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: And that's why I stand today, because I just want

822
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: to be that for someone who may feel hopeless and

823
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 3: feel like there's knowing. The Navy they see me and

824
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 3: they say, you know, this guy, you know's just just

825
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 3: someone out there that understands and cares because I felt

826
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: there was knowing. As a result. Now I just started

827
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 3: the Rodney Robbers Foundation.

828
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 4: Oh tell me about that.

829
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 3: What I offer is the one thing that most in

830
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: the viduals who have been wrong for convicted and not

831
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 3: just wrong for convicted, but particularly the wrong for convicted,

832
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 3: but individuals who've come home and feel as there's no

833
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 3: one to connect with because in the wrong for convision

834
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 3: community the one thing we don't have. No state has

835
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 3: an agency that provides housing, work assistance, counseling. No state

836
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 3: has that. So you would let come home and there's

837
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 3: no way for you to turn because some states made

838
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 3: me feel they don't make that answer. You have nowhere

839
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: to go to, so you have no opportunities there. Myself,

840
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 3: when I came home, I had to compete with my

841
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: counterparts with gods on parole, probation for jobs and training

842
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 3: and treatment. And I'm going in and saying, look, I'm innocent.

843
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: I was just exonerated, and employees like, listen, hey man,

844
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: that's a great story. We think, but we're in the

845
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 3: money making business, and we would rather hire a god

846
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 3: on parole because we could tax deductions for them. Hey.

847
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 3: One playee told me, he's like, well, I could tax

848
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 3: the duction behind guys and parole. He was like, you

849
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 3: a great guy. I'm sorry what happened to you, but

850
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 3: I had to hire this guy. Plus you can on

851
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 3: seventeen years, so we don't know, so I was left

852
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: in a void, and so I had to literally create

853
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 3: a job for myself. I had to literally create an

854
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 3: opportunity for myself by taking that frustration that of being denied,

855
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: have no place to fit in, and taking the passion

856
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 3: that I have to advocate against this injustice, prosecutory misconduct

857
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 3: and inefectious accounts of course play agreements. And I started

858
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: talking about it on a basis where people started listening

859
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: and saying, you know what, we like what he's saying

860
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: because he's is relevant, it's right on time, and we

861
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 3: think there needs to be heard. And I was brought

862
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 3: into like a organization like the Innocent Project, who will

863
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 3: give me assignments and say, Ronnie Gore, who you work

864
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 3: with us and speak here. We can help you with

865
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: a little conversation here. And that grew into me working

866
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: closely with them, and me making the commercials with them,

867
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: and me doing other work with them. And Jeffrey Desker

868
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 3: had the Jeffrey Desker found brought me in and helped

869
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 3: me school me in a way with you know, this

870
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 3: is what you need to be saying, and this is

871
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 3: how you should present and this is we're gonna give

872
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 3: you this little space here. So the Rodney Roberts Foundation

873
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: is a representation of all that experience. What I want

874
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 3: to do is I want to give an opportunity for

875
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 3: those who have been wrong, for the convicted to be

876
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,959
Speaker 3: able to reach out that's currently incarcerated to reach out,

877
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: so in New Jersey because New Jersey is far behind

878
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 3: and everything what comes wrong for convicted, even currently saying

879
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 3: legislation is being challenged now. But I want to be

880
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 3: that help with with job placement, help fund housing, help

881
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 3: with counseling, which is most important, which even myself after

882
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 3: all these years, is an important feature, even for myself,

883
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: to help with counseling, to help with reconnecting those with

884
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 3: their families, because the one group that suffers the most

885
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 3: and most is the family. They see the person locked up,

886
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 3: but once a family members locked up, the whole family

887
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: is basically locked up and so a degree because they

888
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 3: can't stop being connected with their love one, so they

889
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 3: suffer as well. And they the families have to also

890
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 3: be educated on what's necessary to help this person reintegrate

891
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 3: and what's to look for and what characteristics to look

892
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 3: for when you see a person slipping leaves the recidivism

893
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 3: and when you see signs of depression or feeling and hopeless.

894
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 3: So the Rodney Robins Foundation has multifacts in that level

895
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 3: and also with the public speaking aspect as well. Right now,

896
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: I have the Rodney Roys Foundation, I have what I'm doing.

897
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 3: I have a go fund account that I'm trying to

898
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 3: raise money now to create a platform to bring people

899
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 3: in like get a staff. That's my goal is to

900
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: have a staff and a permanent location and office in

901
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: New Jersey where and I'm growing from there and have

902
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: my email set up Rodney Roberts Foundation ninety six at

903
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: gmail dot com and also the Rodney Robins Foundation. What

904
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 3: we're gonna do also, we're gonna collaborate with other organizations

905
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 3: to fight against wrong who Convictions, Prosecutorium's conduct Ineffectual Accouncil.

906
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 3: We're gonna try to grow in that degree. Right now,

907
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 3: I don't want to put the bugget before the horse

908
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 3: because I'm not elevated to that level. You have to

909
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 3: be as prestigious as some of the organizations that they're

910
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 3: book cold on because I'm on my way. I'm headed

911
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: in the right direction and with the passion and ideas

912
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 3: and energy and I'm headed there and I'm gonna build

913
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: and have someone so when everyone New Jersey and worldwide

914
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 3: can connect to also.

915
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 5: And that's really exciting that you're doing that. I think

916
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 5: we're gonna make a big difference in a lot of

917
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 5: people's lives. What can people do? Obviously, I hope people

918
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 5: will support join me and support it, because I'm going

919
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 5: to support you in the Roddy Roberts Foundation. But what

920
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 5: else can people do?

921
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 3: Well? I think particularly their loved one isn't gold how

922
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: close they are. If it's a family member that you're

923
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 3: directly related to close with the first thing you need

924
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: to reach out to their attorney, find out who the

925
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 3: attorney is, who's representing them, and get their discoveries, get

926
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 3: whatever paperwork or those documents they have. Get familiar with

927
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: what the record says yourself and try to understand that

928
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 3: because the first thing you had to do is educate yourself,

929
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: because most time we rely on hearsay what this attorney

930
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 3: says or this person says, and that could be misleading.

931
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: If you are in a position to find out yourself,

932
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: you could read through their paperwork, their discoveries and decipher

933
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 3: what's being said or do not help the family member

934
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 3: understand exactly what's being charged and how to approach the situation. Secondly,

935
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: just a visit, a card, a letter. At some point,

936
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 3: take some time out to show that person that they're

937
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: not forgotten and that strength is the person. You don't

938
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 3: know how much it feels good to sit there and

939
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: then hear when they do a mail call and you're

940
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 3: waiting and you hear everybody else's name call, and your

941
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 3: name and not call over and over. Then one day

942
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: you hear your name. Oh if you run to get

943
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 3: this letter, because now you know someone out there has

944
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 3: reached back inside. So even that something as simple as

945
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: that is major or something. And understand that when a

946
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 3: person is released and they come home, they're going through

947
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 3: a sort of a culture shock or a reverse culture shock.

948
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 3: They're going through a process where they released from one

949
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 3: environment to another, and this change they have to unlearn

950
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: what they just learned, you know, and to relearn what

951
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: they already knew about how the interact and society. You're

952
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: talking about people who are a person who just went

953
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 3: through a prison experience and where they had to begin

954
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 3: a controlled environment where they had to stand in line

955
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 3: and eat and had eaten a certain period of time,

956
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: and you know, these things are built into you when

957
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 3: they do the same repetitive thing over and over again.

958
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: Become institutionalized. Now you have to come home into a

959
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: new environment and the shock of that, which is you know,

960
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: just culture shock because you really unlearn all this and

961
00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 3: then to readjust yourself back to being free. I understand

962
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: that that process is not it's easy, even if the

963
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: person makes it look easy. It's not easy. There. There's

964
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 3: a pretend there because this affects anyone that's been locked

965
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 3: up in a long period of time. So make sure

966
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 3: to give them enough cushions so that they can have

967
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: those moments. Well, but you may see, like like myself,

968
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 3: you know, when I first came home, you know, because

969
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: in the prison, you go to take a shower, you

970
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 3: take a shower, you're underwear, and you watch it. When

971
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,439
Speaker 3: I went home, came home, I went to shot money

972
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 3: and the lady like, what are you doing so? And

973
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't want to watch you like listen,

974
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: you're not there, and so you know, so I know,

975
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: So you look for little sounds like that where they're

976
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 3: sitting at the table and they take this poon and

977
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: put it inside the cup and you're You're like, what

978
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 3: are you doing? You know, it's a little jail house

979
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 3: things that people have to shed and little psychological things

980
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 3: that people may do. Have a little more patience with

981
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 3: the love one.

982
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 5: I want to I want to reinforce one point that

983
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 5: you made which is so powerful and I'm glad said it,

984
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 5: which is that it's so important that people understand that

985
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 5: just because your loved one or even you have a lawyer,

986
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that lawyer is doing a great job. Even

987
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 5: the best intentions. Sometimes in the court system, which we

988
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 5: know is not always the best attention, but mistakes are made.

989
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 5: So even if you have a good defense lawyer, they

990
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 5: might be going through something in their life. They might

991
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 5: miss a detail. So if you have that opportunity to

992
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 5: be able to read those papers and those transcripts, you

993
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 5: might be able to find that piece of evidence or

994
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 5: that legal principle that might help yourself or your loved one,

995
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 5: and you can present that to your lawyer and they

996
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 5: may have missed it. And so that's such a great

997
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 5: point that you brought up. And now, Ronnie, we have

998
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 5: a tradition on wrongful conviction, which is that I like

999
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 5: to just sit here and listen and let you talk

1000
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 5: about anything you think you may have left out. You know,

1001
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 5: you got so much, so much knowledge. It's so much

1002
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 5: hard and so much to share. So I just want

1003
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 5: to give you a chance to just say anything at

1004
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 5: all that you want.

1005
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 3: Wow, ain't you know, even given that opportunity, I once

1006
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 3: read that it says that ammire a person who's been

1007
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 3: through hell and came out, but takes buckets of water

1008
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: back to those who are there. And even this moment,

1009
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 3: I still want to hold dear to my passion to

1010
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 3: try to reach out to others as well. And at

1011
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 3: this point, through the Rodney Roberts Foundation, I'm just trying

1012
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: to buy a bigger bucket because I went back, I

1013
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 3: took buckets there, and I found out that my buckets

1014
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: need to be a little bit bigger to provide more

1015
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 3: service to a larger group of people. And just that,

1016
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: just you know, I want to continue to stay close

1017
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 3: to the front line and stay close to you know,

1018
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 3: fighting alongside the champions such as yourself and others, and

1019
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 3: trying to expose something in this country that has becoming

1020
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 3: a phenomenon now is why it's wrong for convision and

1021
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 3: prostitutory in WISCONDA and ineffects us AC counsels and continue

1022
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 3: to be on a positive path and a productive path.

1023
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 3: And I can make myself and my mother and my

1024
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 3: loved ones proud to proud of me and proud to

1025
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 3: be associated with me. So that's it for me.

1026
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 5: Well, for anyone who's listening, you've now heard the extraordinary

1027
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 5: saga and the equally extraordinary spirit of Rodney Roberts. I

1028
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 5: hope you'll consider donating to the Rodney Roberts Foundation. For

1029
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 5: every dollar that anyone donates myself and Wrongful Conviction, we

1030
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 5: will match up to ten thousand dollars, so we'll get

1031
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 5: you off to a good start there, and we'll be

1032
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 5: very proud to continue to support you as you do

1033
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 5: this amazing life saving work. And I'm just really, I'm

1034
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 5: just proud to know you and happy to call you

1035
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 5: a friend. And I appreciate you coming on and sharing

1036
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 5: your experience, strength and wisdom with our audience. And I

1037
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 5: want to thank you again, Rodney, and you've been listening

1038
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:59,280
Speaker 5: to a very unique and tremendous episode of wrongful Conviction.

1039
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you.

1040
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1041
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 5: get your podcasts.

1042
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 4: It really helps.

1043
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 5: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

1044
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 5: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1045
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 5: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1046
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 5: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

1047
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 5: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1048
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 5: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1049
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,439
Speaker 5: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

1050
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 5: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

1051
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 5: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

1052
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 5: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

1053
00:52:46,640 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 5: with Signal Company Number one